Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Persimmon Trading Update Analyst Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. To ask a question during the session, you will need to press star one one on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question, please press star one and one again. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Dean Finch, CEO. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody, and thank you for joining the call this morning. As usual, I'm joined by Mike, Julia, and Vicky. I'll spend a moment or two to talk through the key points in this trading update before opening up to Q&A. Operational delivery was excellent, as good as we've ever seen, and trading in Q4 was robust, which has allowed us to report legal completions of 9922 for 2023, ahead of our previous guidance. This includes 780 bulk sales for the year, compared with 889 for 2022. We achieved an ASP for the year of GBP 255,750, 3% up on previous year. We closed the year with cash of GBP 420 million.
We expect to be reporting a housing margin of 14% for the year, after providing some one-off costs that total GBP 15.5 million. We have taken a charge of GBP 6.8 million in order to remediate defective materials on closed sites in Cornwall and in the Cotswolds. We have also reviewed our full portfolio of sites and raised a charge of GBP 8.7 million in respect of two, where we have taken the decision to exit early, one through a land sale and one through an historic investor deal. One site was acquired in 2019, and the other in 2014. Together, these charges amount to about 60 basis points of gross margin. In total, our forward order book is up 2% compared to a year ago, with the value of our private forward order book up 4%.
You will have seen in our update this morning that our volumes in our private order book are up 11%, but our ASP is down 6% on a year ago. This is down to mix, some bulk deals, and the exit of one of the legacy sites I referred to. This time last year, our forward order book was skewed by late delivery of sales in some southern regions. This year, the forward order book is skewed to sales of smaller units in the North Midlands and the North East. Excluding bulk deals in the forward order book, ASP is up 2%. However, we did see an increased use of incentives on reservations in Q4 to 3.8% compared to an average for the year of 3.4%.
While pricing was robust at the start of 2023, it weakened as the year went on. As best as we can give a like-for-like comparison, we estimate that pricing fell around 3% over the year, and this will obviously impact 2024. While it's encouraging to see mortgage rates drop from their peak of last July, for a typical Persimmon customer with a 90% mortgage, with a 35-year term loan, in today's market, they're still probably paying closer to 5% and affordability remains an issue. So we expect 2024 to also be a challenging year with uncertainty ahead.
Nevertheless, we remain on course to open a net 10-20 outlets by the late spring, and we shall continue to build on this through the year, allowing us to enter 2025 in a stronger place, where hopefully we shall see interest rates falling and have a general election behind us. So in summary, we are pleased with the year ended, given where it started. The market remains uncertain, and 2024 will undoubtedly bring further volatility. However, we are controlling what we can control and preparing for more benign conditions based on a strong balance sheet, an excellent land bank, a growing outlet network, an affordable and competitive product that continues to improve, deepening vertical integration, known and relatively limited cladding remediation costs, and a great operational team. While there's still much to do, the fundamentals of the business are in great shape.
We now have a sustainable dividend. We have reversed the decline in our outlet numbers. We have gone from a three-star builder to an above benchmark five-star builder. We've achieved an over 200% improvement in build quality. We have halved our run rate of planning refusals, and we now have councillors advocating for our developments. As the market recovers, we should once again grow profits and margins. Thank you for listening to me. I'll open it up to Q&A.
Thank you. As a reminder, to ask a question, please press star one one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star one and one again. Please stand by while we compile the Q&A roster. We will now take the first question. From the line of Will Jones from Redburn Atlantic, please go ahead.
... Thanks. Morning. A couple for me, please, if I could. The first is, in the release, you talk about your Boxing Day campaign, the positive results from it. Perhaps you could just elaborate on what that exactly entailed, and would you be willing to expand on perhaps some of the metrics you're seeing from that, such as leads shaping up relative to this time last year? And the second really was just around the tick-up in incentives, and just thinking tactically, I suppose, in 2024, if you were to see a somewhat firmer underlying market, you know, what's the priority for the business? Is it increasing the sales rate or potentially trimming back incentives, if you can? Thank you.
Good morning, Will. Well, we've had one week of trading so far.
So anything I say about the Boxing Day campaign has to be caveated by that. You know, we... As you know, we're not really into the selling season yet. It will pick up over the course of the next few weeks. But we were pleased with the response from the campaign, and inquiries and interest was up. We will be able to give you a much better picture as we report in March as to how the season has developed. I think in terms of incentives and volume, we just... Again, it's the same answer, I'm afraid, which is we need to see how the market develops over the spring. We shall be very nimble.
We shall watch it very closely and react to market conditions just as we did last year to maximize the position for the group.
Thank you. And maybe as an addition, in November, I think you talked about the aspiring to some volume growth in 2024, and that the base is that bit higher from 2023, but would that still be the case for the 9.9?
Yeah. I mean, look, very simply, we expect to open about 10-20 outlets this year. So other things being equal, by the spring, enabling us to sell into 2024. So other things being equal, just assuming the same sales rate, we would expect to see some volume growth. And I think during the course of last year, we did see improving positivity.
The demand is out there, the market's there. It's a question of what price you transact at. You know, I think we've been very disciplined in how we've managed incentives. You know, we did have bulk sales last year, but fewer than in the previous year. We just responded to the market in a very disciplined way, and I think a sensible way to maximize the overall position for the group, and that's what we'll do again this year. What I'm absolutely convinced about is that the demand is there. You know, customers want to buy, but they need access to products that they can afford to enable them to buy.
If mortgage rates continue to come down this year, then I think we will see improving consumer confidence, and that will ultimately help sales. But I think, you know, 2024 is gonna be another transition year, I'm afraid to say. It's... There's a lot going on. There's an election here, there's an election on the other side of the pond. There's still a war going on in the Middle East. There's still a war going on in Central Europe. And, you know, inflation is coming down, but is not yet tamed. So overall, I remain extremely positive in terms of the outlook for Persimmon, but we're just in volatile times, so hence the caution.
Thank you.
Thank you. We will now take the next question from the line of Chris Millington from Numis. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and Happy New Year. A few, if I may, please. I just wonder if you could comment firstly just on the margin in the order book just in relation to the comments you made, Dean, just about pricing and incentives obviously deteriorating a bit through the year. Next one is just really should we expect any big movement in net cash in 2024? Perhaps you could just talk around the moving parts there. And then I just wanted a bit more color on your comment around build cost inflation and whether you are thinking that you're gonna see a decline this year, or it's more of a stabilization at a neutral level. Thanks so much.
Morning, Chris, and Happy New Year to you, too. Well, look, that's why I went in some depth in the order book. I think it's important not to get overfixated by the order book. The overall message in the order book is volume's up. What I think is positive in the order book is, if you take out the exit from one of the sites we talked about and some investor deals that really were a hangover from 2023, that are in the 2024 order book, ASP is underlying up, so I'm positive about that. And you know, I think that shows the underlying strength of demand. But I think, look, it's a game of small numbers, isn't it?
The order book compared to the full year, and is very much a mix. I mean, what struck me this year is that, we've got quite a lot of... If you take out the site that I'm referring to, that we exited, which has skewed it, so that's 110 of it, then, you've also got quite a lot of, forward sales of two beds, in Teesside and Durham, also some in, Central and the West Midlands, and some of those in Central are one-bed flats. So that sort of just skews it overall. so it's very difficult to read too much into it.
Yeah, but I think with, I'll come back to cash in a moment, but if you come back to build cost inflation, it's, it's obviously the interplay between the ASP and build cost inflation and what happens during the course of this year. As I said, you know, we did see ASP, we think, as best we can tell, like, slightly weaken during the course of last year. We would hope that as confidence increases and mortgage rates fall during the course of this year, that we see some strengthening yet there, but there's going to inevitably be an overhang into this year's, this year's results. In terms of build cost inflation, it fell, it fell to nothing at the end of, very end of last year.
You know, we saw some months were actually a little bit of deflation. We're in a new year, we're in week two of a new year, so again, very early days. The usual suspects are coming forward and chancing their arms. So bricks are up, plastics are up, plasterboards up. Other categories are falling, timber is falling, for instance. So overall, you know, about flat, up a little bit. It kind of feels to me that we're returning more to a normal year. So, you know, maybe 2% or 3% of build cost inflation during the course of the year. I don't know. Very early days yet, so. Sure. In terms of net cash, I mean, obviously, we're investing in the business.
And what that means is that cash balance is coming down. Very pleased with where we ended up in the year, but you know, our central idea is that we've got a position where we're looking through 2024 into 2025, where we're hoping for more benign conditions. Despite all the chat last year, land prices didn't fall. It's showing no signs of falling so far this year. We do want to rebuild our outlet network, so we plan to be active in the land market, but still be, you know, very selective and do the right deals that are right for the group. That will be a net investment.
In addition, we're very focused on getting through our cladding remediation costs and getting that off the books, you know, about GBP 300 million odd to spend. We made good progress last year. We want to crack on with that this year. I expect we'll spend at least GBP 100 million on that during the course of this year. We wanna. We think it's good for us, we think it's good for our shareholders, and we think it's good for the residents of those affected by this to get through that as quickly as possible, so it's behind us. So that's a big cost for the business this year.
That does mean, by the way, that we'll be dipping into the facility at various points during the year, so that does mean that there will be a cost to charge to the balance, to the P&L, whereas there was a credit in the P&L in 2023. So hopefully, you know, that gives you some flavor and feel for the moving parts and cash this year.
That's helpful. Thank you.
Thank you. One moment, please. We will now take the next question from the line of Harry Goad from Berenberg. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, good morning. Thank you for my question. I actually want to ask about customer quality, which you referred to a couple of times today. It'd be interesting if you could talk about what is actually happening in terms of both your customer journey, the build process, et cetera, and what is different in 2023 is maybe where the business was two, three years ago? And is that, to what extent is that affecting build cost and build duration times? Thank you.
Thanks, Harry. Look, we're really delighted with where we've gone from and to on this. The Persimmon Way has been pivotal. Also, last year gave us a real chance to get our build durations right, and it's added about a week to it overall. The key thing, though, was discipline and getting our teams focused on the discipline of completing with enough time to snag the property before handing over. You know, gone are the days where we want to run around like idiots on the 23rd or 24th of December, handing over 3,000 units, and the customer is lucky if he's got a front door and a roof that's not leaking. We're beyond that now. That's not the business we are in, and that's clearly reflected...
In the progress that we have made in terms of both, you know, what our customers think about us. You know, for instance, this morning, I looked 10 minutes ago, 93% of our customers would recommend us. That's well above the benchmark in the industry. And our RIs are the lowest they've ever been in our history. So really, really happy with that. And, you know, that's what making us feel good about our product. And, you know, it's now a product that we can be proud of, at a good price to the customer. You know, we're not losing customers now because concerns about the Persimmon brand. And I think when you're in a more challenged market, that's exactly the right place to be in.
And I think also where you've got regulators who are taking, you know, an increasing interest in what we do, there's a New Homes Quality Code that we signed up to. We are activating that this year. That's, that's the direction to travel. In terms of the overall net cost of the business, I think compared to its peak, yes, it's clearly cost us some margin, but not that much. And I think, you know, we're gonna get that back in terms of demand and value. So overall, that's, you know, we're really, really happy with the progress we've made there.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you. We will now take the next question from the line of Gregor Kuglitsch from UBS. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning. I've got a few questions. Maybe the first one on margin, just so we're clear what you're trying to say. So you're kind of saying maybe a bit of incentive headwind, so the price, exit price a bit lower, maybe costs still up a little bit, maybe some overhead leverage on the positive side. So are you kind of trying to tell us stability is sort of your base case at this stage, or do you hope you can actually build on the margin versus the 14% of last year? Then the second question is just, I think the reference in the statement, the gross margin in the land bank, which I think in June you disclosed about 31. I just want to understand, I guess, what's required to get us there, right?
From, I guess this year, we're probably gonna be closer to maybe 20-ish or so. And then, this sort of, I suppose, second bucket is the land bank, and particularly the land with detailed planning. I think you said, you've had, I think, 11,000 approvals. I can see that the land bank, sort of owned land bank with planning, has dropped considerably over recent years. I want to understand, has that actually improved year-over-year? Do you have more plots now with detailed planning on the balance sheet? And I guess, how do you expect it to trend? Because basically it boils down to the conversion of, you know, outline planning land to detailed planning land. Is there more optimism that that will start converting into land with detailed planning? Thank you.
Morning. Thank you very much. Yeah, look, I mean, you rightly identify the moving parts in the margin, but overall, other things being equal, and I can't, you know, say enough times, I don't know what's going to happen to ASP this year. At this point in time, we need to see the progress over the course of the spring. But yeah, we would be hopeful of an improvement in margin this year as volumes begin to recover, and we will build on that in the years following that. The margin, the embedded margin in the land bank is excellent. And well, as the business recovers, it will come through and support growing margins in the business overall. So, there's no...
You know, we're not concerned about that. We continue to buy a strong hurdle rate, which will continue to underpin margins in Persimmon. But clearly, the key factor that's driving it is, we're returning to strength in the ASP and the interplay with that and build cost. You know, we're still working through the absolute peak of build cost inflation. There will be a tail of that into the current year before we begin to see that dropping to not a lot, and then returning to more usual levels of inflation. But having said that, as you identified, we would expect to see the volume improvement and take out the non-recurring costs that I referred to, and you should therefore see a modest improvement in margin this year.
I think the key thing with, you know, what have we got in consented land, is that it's a constant churn. I'm absolutely delighted with the progress the team made. You know, we came into 2023 with nearly GBP 300 million of outline on the balance sheet, and we got 80% plus of that approved during the course of last year. And that is thanks to a complete about turn in how we go after this. A really forensic approach on a committee-by-committee basis, the business acting up in a joined up way, both that group and with the local operating companies, putting our best foot forward, getting our MDs to go to the planning committee meetings.
So they can discuss directly with the councillors, understand what their needs are, and sort it out there and then, rather than get a refusal at a committee and then put that back by another two or three months, and so go start the process all over again. And as a result of that, you know, we, during the course of 2023, halved our refusal rate. That still means we're getting refusals, of course. Nobody is pretending that planning is going to get any better in this country, quite the reverse. We've got nutrients, we've got water, we've got God knows what. But, you know, there are enough councils out there that if you give them the product they want, that's what we're focused on.
Local houses, providing local jobs when they're being built for local people to own. That's what we're about, and that is resonating extremely well with our authorities that we deal with, and that's what we're seeing is making progress for us. So, much to do, but, you know, we're seeing a real turnaround in the business.
Thank you.
Thank you. We will now take the next question. From the line of Glynis Johnson from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Morning. I still have four, if I may, hopefully.
Oh, yeah.
All right. I'll find a part A and a part B. The first one, just in terms of one-offs, how confident are you that they are one-off? Are the reviews complete? Are there any more worrisome sites out there that we need to be aware of? Second one, in terms of Scottish Building Safety Fund, can you just remind me where you are with that, you know, in terms of what has been settled? I know you guys are, you know, continuing, you know, trying to resolve, but just where we are in terms of the actual, what's being said by government. Thirdly, just bulk sales. What should we expect for 2024 in terms of the bulk sales that you've already reserved that to be delivered?
Given what we're seeing in terms of mortgage rate improvements, do you think you'll continue to look at bulk sales, or do you think that's now kind of not needed within the business? The last one is probably the trickiest one, actually. Maybe you just start me off. The planning approvals that we've seen in 2023 had a real regional skew because of nutrient neutrality and other things. Do you think that your positioning going forward will have to morph to adapt to what we've seen come through? I'm just wondering if we should assume that Persimmon in two-three years' time, when you start delivering on those, you know, these sorts of lands, that actually you'll have a slightly different mix or, you know, either regionally or product wise.
Okay, I counted five, but maybe I miscounted. No doubt my answers will spark more questions, so I look forward to that. Yeah, look, we have done a full go through the book, as you'd expect. And, you know, I think it's quite, I'm quite pleased that we've only come up with two, that we've got particular concerns with, quite frankly, given where the market's been, given how old some of these land ownings are. So, you know, that, I think we're in good shape there. You never know what's around the corner tomorrow, you know, that's business, isn't it? But, I don't think investors should be concerned or alarmed by the fact that I'm talking about making a provision against a couple of sites.
It's absolutely the right thing for us to do, exercise, move on, cut the preliminary costs. Net-net is good for the business, get the cash in, and actually ultimately the bottom line will benefit. Scotland Building Safety is a mess. They want to reinvent the wheel. They don't want to do what England's doing. And, you know, they are, I would say, in danger of being two years behind where England is. And I think that's a real shame, actually, for the residents in those properties in Scotland. It's inexcusable. However, the good news for us is we don't have many of them. We know what we need to do, and we're cracking on with it. Bulk sales in the order book. I think we've got about 300 in there at the moment.
But we would have had bulk sales in the order book last year. Forgive me, I can't quite remember the detail of the question on it, which was... Is there any-- Was it, is there anything unique in there? Sorry, what, what was the question?
Well, yeah, it was. Are you going to continue to look at bulk sales, or have those bulk sales maybe peaked because perhaps the market itself, you know, is underlying everything?
Look, Persimmon has always had bulk sales in the order book, I think. It's just that they never told you. So it's always been around, you know, 800-1,000 when I've looked back over the course of the last few years. And you know what? Those... What strikes me about Persimmon is that those are typically repeat customers that we've got good relationships with. So I would imagine they will continue because of those relationships and because they're good for us and good for them. So I don't think that's going to change very much. And obviously, we'll just respond to the market as it changes. It changes every day.
You know, interest waxes and wanes every day, and we'll just do the right deal that we think is right for the business. So, I wouldn't expect to see, you know, a radical change there. In terms of planning approvals, will it see a change in the business? Well, I think it already is seeing a change in the business. I mean, clearly, some of the businesses are being held back because they've really been caught this year, in 2024, for instance, by nutrient neutrality. So I can think of the South West, I can think of Anglia. Both are excellent businesses that are being constrained in 2024 because of nutrient neutrality.
So that in itself will have an impact at A level within the business, but, you know, doesn't have an overall material impact. But, you know, it's about responding to that, which is what we're doing. You know, for instance, we bought some land buys in Anglia that gives us some credit offset, which should allow that business to turn back to growth in 2025, which is good. There's an excellent team there. It's a great market for us, so that's good. And I think the whole point about planning is it's really tough. But you know, it's the business we're in, so we've got to deal with it. And we are, as a business, adapting to it.
You know, we've gone from a business that tried to minimize the risk of getting a no, to a business that now is trying to maximize the chances of getting a yes, and we've proven we've got good results as a consequence of that. And we just continue to evolve and the business will change, you know, as it evolves. But I wouldn't point to any particular trends other than just dealing with what's out there and what you have to do to get an approval these days.
Cool. Thank you very much.
Thank you. We will now take the next question. From the line of Aynsley Lammin from Investec. Please go ahead.
Thanks, morning, all. Just two from me, left, I think. Firstly, just going back to the Q4 trade, and obviously, a seasonally unusual, you know, normal, quiet period, but just interested in a bit more color there. Did you see the buyers slow down to Christmas, the 0.41 sales rate? I mean, how does that compare to normal? Did you see any kind of sign that maybe people saw interest rates potentially peaking, a bit more confidence come in the market? Just what you drew from that bit for Q4 outturn. And then secondly, just interested in your thoughts, some kind of mention in the media over the Christmas break around, you know, March 6th budget, probably having something for the housing market, whether it's a first-time buyer support or, or, you know, mortgage guarantee.
Just interested to hear what you've heard and what, what your expectations are for that. Thanks.
Morning. Well, what did happen in Q4? The gross sales rate was obviously really strong, but that's because a whole bunch of the bulk sales, you know, came in in Q4. We didn't declare them earlier because we didn't want to get ahead of ourselves and then, you know, have that impact in bulk sales. We probably had about 300, 350 come in in that quarter. But the underlying was strongly up on the previous year, but obviously, you know, that was in the wake of the catastrophic budget in September 2022, so it's hardly a benchmark. I would say it followed a normal seasonal pattern, but overall, I was pleased to see, you know, positivity out there. People still wanna buy houses. In fact, they're desperate to buy houses.
And, you know, that's what I love about Persimmon. I think, you know, for that, that segment of the market, we're exactly right for them. And, you know, our price, the, the price that we sell at is really good, and the product is, is, you know, something they can be proud of, and we can be proud of now as well. So, normal seasonal pattern, a bit more positivity, maybe, the headline figure is impacted by bulk sales, as we disclosed. We have, in terms of the March budget, I have lost count now the number of times that I have heard that, politicians are talking about doing something for first-time buyers. So we wait and see. I mean, we all saw, what Mr. Gove said, that it's definitely going to happen.
So, you know, what do you put against that? 25% probability? I don't know. What we do think is that housing will be clearly a key battleground in the general election that we expect to take place this year. And, you know, that's why... And therefore, probably something, the benefit of that will probably be seen during the course of next year. So that's why we're hoping with lower mortgage rates, maybe changes to easing the supply of land coming to market through planning, and maybe some support for the demand side, all of which are entirely speculative at this stage, but, you know, add up to more benign conditions for us. But it's politics.... It changes on an hourly basis. We have to wait and see.
Very helpful. Thank you very much.
Thank you. We will now take the next question from the line of Ami Galla from Citi. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Just two questions from me. The first one was on overheads. As you kind of think about 2023 and the investments that you've made on the overhead line, do we think we are now in the right level as we think of 2024 ahead? And the second question was on land spend. Can you give us some of your thoughts in terms of the ambition, the scale of land investments that you're looking into 2024? Do we expect to come back to replacement levels or even higher as we think about 2024 in terms of land investments?
Good morning. Thank you. Well, during the, I was pleased with how the business managed the cost base last year. We saw, obviously saw volumes drop by 33%. We dropped EUs by 28%, and yet we also grew the outlet base. So that inevitably requires a net investment in EUs, which explains that. In terms of the overheads itself, you know, in terms of our core base, as I've said many times over, I think we benchmark extremely favorably already against anybody else in the market of a comparable size. During the course of last year, we actually reduced regional overhead headcount by 16%, but some of that is in site, some of that is in offices.
So we, you know, responded, I think, very robustly to a very tough market we were in last year, and right-sized the business. I think the business, you can see from our operational delivery, though, that means that the business is now right in terms of size, you know, what it has to do and making it a competent operator. So I think, you know, other things being equal, we're through that. It is in the right level now. And as the business grows, I expect that, you know, we will see our infrastructure grow with it. In terms of land spend, look, it very much depends on the deals that come through.
I would expect it to be up a little bit in terms of net investment during the course of 2024 compared to 2023. But we remain cautious. Lots of moving parts, but, you know, probably factor in a little bit more of spend in 2024 compared to 2023. We have, through, you know, what we've already done, a excellent pipeline of land options, and we're converting those into, land, via land spend into outlets, and we'll see that growth this year and continue into 2025.
Thank you.
Thank you. As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please press star one and one on your telephone. We will now take the next question from the line of Andy Murphy from Edison Research. Please go ahead.
Morning, Dean. Morning, team. Most of our questions have been answered, as you might imagine. I was particularly interested in the sales rates, but you've clearly answered that one. Got a couple left, though. Just thinking about labor rates, could you talk about versus peak, how much they were down, I guess, in Q4 2023, what your best estimate is for labor rates for the rest of this year? And then just thinking about your brick tile Space4 operations, just curious to know, really, if you had to buy in the volumes that you're currently using from third parties, whether that would improve your margins or have no effect or what the other way, just as a confirmation really.
Okay. Morning, Andy. Well, look, you know, this time last year, we were looking at groundworkers still putting forward 12% pay increases. And then that fell to zero. Currently, you know, we're looking at 2% or 3% there as the spring starts, and we're pushing back on those. In terms of labor costs, I mean, obviously, there's the 10% increase in the Real Living Wage, which will affect some, but overall, we are... We're not expecting any material increases in labor rates this year. About-- in terms of bricks, we self-source now about half of the business. When I arrived, we probably only did about 15%. So that was a, that's a material step up in what we did.
We invested in the product to improve the product, to make it a better product, and, and that explains the take-up rate within the company. If you know, and that unquestionably has helped our margins, it saves about GBP 2,000 a plot. So, you know, that is a key advantage for Persimmon. And the timber frame, likewise, saves about, I think, last time I looked, it was about GBP 1,500 a plot compared to going outside. So they are key sources of competitive cost advantage, as well as being incredibly important in the supply chain to enable us to deliver. So, you know, it remains something that we as a business are, you know, jealously guard and are very pleased to have within our portfolio. Great.
Thanks, Dean.
Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I would now like to turn the conference back to Dean Finch for closing remarks.
Okay, well, listen, thank you all very much for listening to me waffle on this morning. I think we started this time last year in a tough place. I think the business performed extremely well to deliver, albeit obviously profit is down, volume's down, but nevertheless, I think it outperformed our expectations last year. There remains a lot of uncertainty ahead, inevitably, but that's business. I think certainly the trends are now turning around and moving in the right direction. And as affordability improves, what we are focusing on, what we can do to make the business better, get ourselves ready for more benign conditions.
We're not really expecting that to come through much during 2024, but those seeds will be sown for a better outlook in 2025 and beyond. And the business, you know, I'm very much focused with the team on making the business just get better and better at what it does, and I'm very pleased with the progress we've made. So thank you all for listening to us, and speak to you in March.
This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.