Status Update

Feb 25, 2021

Slides

Thank you all for joining this session, where we will look into detail at Shell's integrated business strategy. We will start with a presentation from Mark Tevetzler, Shell Director for Integrated Gas, Renewables and Energy Solutions, who is joined by Steve Hill, EVP Shell Energy. With the Q and A. I now hand over to Marte and then later on to Steve for the Q and A. Thank you. Yes. Good evening, good afternoon and good morning, everybody. Many thanks for joining our second session today, which is a Shell's focused session on the integrated gas business. Following Shell's overall strategy update 2 weeks ago And the publication of our LNG outlook earlier today, I really look forward to an opportunity to talk about our business and our business strategy in a bit more detail. For those who were not on the call earlier, my name is Maarten Metzler. I'm the Director for Integrated Gas, Renewables and Energy Solutions. And I will be joined for the Q and A by Steve Hill, who is the Executive Vice President for Shell Energy in charge of all the energy, gas, with power and environmental products trading in Shell and in my business. Before we dive into the details of the IG strategy, let me start with a brief recap of the Shell overall strategy that we presented to you 2 weeks ago. With our Powering Progress strategy, we will accelerate our transition to a net 0 emissions company by 2,050, delivering value for our shareholders, for customers and for wider society. The accelerated synergy is built around a disciplined approach to managing capital and carbon. Shell has itself set a net zero target for 2,050 that is comprehensive and complete with short term targets between now and then to really get going. Shell is changing to be a more focused, more resilient and more competitive business for the energy system of today and the future. This strategy means transforming the markets we operate in and the sectors that are difficult to decarbonize such as aviation, shipping, road freight and industry. Carrying out this strategy will radically transform the company's portfolio in the next 30 years and it will deliver compelling returns for our shareholders. And Shell is already well positioned for the enormous commercial opportunity of the energy transition. With our differentiated strengths. We have a footprint at the scale that owners aspire to have years from now, And which creates a unique platform to provide the lower carbon products our customers want and need and start to demand. By 2,050, the majority of our energy products would come from renewable sources. And all the fossil based carbon that we would still sell Would either be captured and stored, balanced out through nature or be embedded in materials. Shell's reshaped organization will deliver the net zero target through 3 pillars: growth, transition and upstream. And the integrated gas business is in the transition pillar, because it's highly relevant to the transition and highly geared to the transition. We have the assets and the product networks works to enable the transition and to serve as a platform for the growth pillar. Now briefly on the role of gas in the energy transition, because natural gas helps to provide cleaner energy. It emits between 45% 55% less CO2 than coal when used to generate electricity and air pollutants are only a fraction. More than 7.50 tons of CO2 emissions have been saved as a result of coal to gas switching over the last decade. The environmental benefits of gas also include the reduction of air pollution. Many cities across Asia have seen significant improvement to their air quality from coal to gas switching. And Shell is playing a leading role in the industry efforts to continuously reduce emissions of methane, A highly potent greenhouse gas in itself across the full gas supply chain. We have established and we lead the Methane Guiding Principles Initiative. This initiative, which is an equal collaboration between industry and civil society and academics, Among other actions has developed best practices and initiated an executive outreach program to create awareness and drive down emissions. Shell has also set an industry leading target to maintain its methane emissions below 0.2% by 2025 for all the oil and gas assets where we are the operator. Now gas is expected to play a key transition role in decarbonizing the sectors as the world moves more and more to renewables. It's driven by replacing coal in power and industry, but also by growth in, for example, freight transport, Well, we see the share of gas growing due to innovative products and technologies. Gas is starting to prove to be a flexible and competitive solution in order to electrify sectors like construction and the iron and steel industries. As you heard from us earlier today, These factors support a growth in gas demand of about 1% per year in the next 2 decades. But LNG continues to be needed to connect the gas Supply and the demand growth because these are geographically disconnected and will play a pivotal role in meeting energy demand growth, particularly in Asia. So energy will grow much faster than gas demand. We expect it to grow by a compound rate of about 3.5% per year until 2014. And we expect natural gas to have a long term role beyond 2014 beyond 2015 as it has several pathways to reach net 0 itself, including CCS, biogas, nature based offsets and hydrogen blending. With our innovation capabilities, we are extremely well placed to develop these pathways. And I want to share perhaps a few good examples of what we're doing in this space. By the end of 2020, we delivered the industry's first 7 carbon neutral LNG cargoes to customers in Asia, Enough to power almost 1,000,000 homes for a year. These carbon neutral cargoes help customers offset their emissions and create differentiated products down the chain. As LNG penetrates the transport sector, we aim to scale a net zero solution in the with the form of renewable natural gas. For example, in Germany, we're investing in biogas with the production plants, which will be supplying thousands of trucks with bioenergy. And we're also growing the LNG refueling stations to 50 bio LNG distribution points by the end of this year in 2021. As part of our integrated customer offerings, Shell is investing in CCS project in Northwest Europe that can help our commercial and industrial customers mitigate their own hard to abate emissions. For example, the Northern Lights project in Norway We'll store up to 1,500,000 tons of CO2 per year. We will have the option to eject our own CO2 from our own operations into that project, but we can also propose to share that CO2 storage with our industrial customers as part of an integrated energy package where we kind of take back the carbon we sell them and store it under the ground, with a very exciting commercial model. CCS is becoming a business rather than just a solution. Now with the With 70,000,000 tons of LNG sold last year, we are the world leader in LNG and we are positively leveraged to the growing role of gas and particularly energy and energy system. We're also the leading producer of gas and liquids products. Our business, Integrated Gas, delivered $11,000,000,000 of cash flow in tough market conditions last year. We have an unmatched LNG portfolio with demand and supply positions that is returning material and resilient cash flow to the company. From this position of strength, we will extend our lead in the growing LNG market enabled by and supported by our world class trading and marketing capabilities. We will continue with our successful strategy by adding competitive third party volumes to our trading portfolio and selectively investing in new energy supply assets and expansions of existing positions always with a focus on cash and carbon competitiveness. But there is further opportunity on the cost side with the relentless focus on operational excellence, we aim to generate resilient cash long into the future, running that business that has put us in the lead efficiently. By 2022, we want to reduce operating expenses in this business by around 20% compared to 2019. Now as the digital foundations are being established, digitalization starts to seriously improve all performance areas of our assets. For example, environmental performance, reliability and the productivity of our people. We are accelerating the deployment of digital technologies with with the focus on high quality and accessible data. One example of how we use digital technologies is real time optimization across all our liquefaction assets and our DTL plants, yielding on average 2% to 3% more production potential or efficiency gains, Depending always of course on the gas supply situation. Now in GTL, we have no plans at the moment for new greenfield plants, But we do see opportunities to further develop premium markets and expand our unit margins. We have a clear competitive advantage in this space And still see significant potential to increase the value from our GTL assets through product sales, capturing a significant an increasing premium over brand. Now energy systems are becoming more complex. And with that development, there is a clear case for system wide optimization and integration of energy assets and networks. This requires flexibility, integrated infrastructure and state of the art digital platforms. And in Shell, we see significant integration potential between our gas business, our integrated power business and our hydrogen business. And we are in an excellent position to generate increased returns by making these systems carbon and cost efficient and by trading, optimizing and converting flows of renewable energy and LNG. Here's how it works. We will bring LNG in over time net 0 LNG And clean power into an energy hub. And we can sell these in our own rights as gas or as clean power. But if we then take the gas, we can also convert it into power and send it or convert it into blue hydrogen. The clean power, we can of course send us power, we can also converting to green hydrogen. And we can sell the blue and green hydrogen to transport customers, to industrial customers. We can use it in our own operations or if the market demands it, we convert it back into power. Integrated energy systems like that hold significant optionality and value potential for players with superior access to energy, Superior access to customers and superior access to conversion assets. And Shell has a unique starting point on these three dimensions and intend to deploy this and extend this lead. On Strategy Day, we showed a number of examples of how our different businesses can integrate and the role that LNG and power play in this. And I will run you through 2 of these examples later on in the presentation. Back to the growing LNG market where we are indeed well positioned to extend our leadership. We see opportunities both in geographical expansion, But also in growing new markets through more ways to use LNG, for example, in transport. Over the last 10 years, we have seen our share of the global LNG volume sold increase from around 8% in 2010 to more than 20% last year with more than 300% volume growth over the prior period. Last year, we supplied LNG to no less than 37 countries in the world. For example, we recently opened an LNG regasification terminal in Gibraltar. And as a result, Gibraltar switched from diesel fuel power generation to natural gas to a new gas fired power plant, reducing CO2 emissions and improving the air quality around the Rock of Gibraltar. And the number of countries supplied will continue to grow. In the coming 2 years, we will provide the first LNG to Ghana, Croatia, Hong Kong and then there's more to come. We target the development of 3,000,000 tonne per year of new LNG markets by 2025. Now I mentioned transport and I want to return to that. In important growth market where we intend to grow into a material business by 2,030. Shipping is where LNG is the cleanest fuel that's available today. Our aim is to supply at least 20% of the global LNG bunkering demand going forward. We already have the largest global LNG bunkering network with 6 operating bunkering vessels and we've executed more than 400 ship to ship LNG bunkering operations to date. Our recent supply agreement for 5 energy fueled gold carriers helps our customer BHP to reduce CO2 emissions by 30% and demonstrates the competitiveness of LNG as a fuel in shipping. We are rapidly expanding our own use fleet with more than 60 deep sea vessels and barges on order. The Chinese LNG for road transport market was 13,000,000 tons in 2020 with more than 3,000 LNG filling stations 140,000 LNG fueled vehicles sold in the year, a growth rate of 30% year on year, A substantial growth rate that we kind of expect to continue in China for now. Shell China Retail is already active in LNG refueling through joint ventures And Shell supplied those retail joint ventures with 15 kilotons of LNG in 2020, 60% year on year growth, small volumes today but growing fast. The European LNG road market is still small, but anticipated to grow at a rapid pace and expect to be around 8,000,000 tons by 2,030. And we Shell are the largest supplier of LNG to road transport in Europe, having doubled our business in 2020 with 62 sites in 7 countries now accepting the Shell MNG card and over 162,000 refueling transactions performed, a grand growing fast. More generally, we continue to innovate. We will lead the market with our world class innovation, trade and optimization capabilities. We have a diverse portfolio with varying contract duration, flexibility and indexation. We will create new markets in Asia and beyond, and raise new customers in all sectors and expect most growth to be in the commercial and industrial sector. China and India will be key markets for us. So how will we grow our business and create new advantage positions? Well, we look for the most competitive source of LNG by to further strengthen and diversify our portfolio. This means buying more energy from third parties, but also expanding our own production capacity. We have included selective investments in our capital plan to expand our portfolio of LNG plants and to grow, of course, natural gas supply to keep the existing plants full. LNG Canada and Nigeria Transcendent projects have both dealt with the logistical challenge related to COVID and are on track to be on stream by the middle of the decade. LNG Canada will deliver carbon competitive volumes And the unit technical cost of LNG in Nigeria LNG Train 7 is one of the lowest in the industry. In the near term, Our CapEx is expected to be around $4,000,000,000 similar to the last few years. If you look forward in our funnel, Our future projects have an average IRR between 14% to 18% and payback before 2014. And we have set a hurdle rate of at least 12% for projects in Integrated Gas. We are progressing the design of the expansion of LNG Canada in parallel to the projects under construction and for producing plants, we focus on ensuring the longevity of our LNG production by developing competitive backfill projects such as the Manati project in Trinidad and Tobago or the Crutch project in Australia and will keep Prelude full for a long time. All our opportunities are cost competitive. We have already reduced the unit technical cost of our project portfolio by around 40% since 2015. And any new projects with a unit technical cost below $5 per MMBtu. We are confident that our equity supplies continue to form a solid base for our growing trading portfolio. Now let me highlight the 2 examples that I promised you, while we are bringing the Energy Systems integration in Shell and maybe bring it to life. First of all, in Queensland, we have a number of ventures across the energy value chain. The case here is around maximizing value through optionality of supply and demand. We have upstream gas production with our QGC and Aero Ventures. We sell that gas domestically or we liquefy it and we export it through the QGC energy plant. The domestic gas is sold directly or is converted to power and sold through Shell Energy Australia. This used to be called the power business that we sold that we bought a year ago, which gives us access to an enormous industrial customer base So this example clearly shows the options we have in Australia by integrating across the energy system. We can direct the product flow and optimize the assets to ensure maximum value while expanding the offering of energy solutions to our customers and optimize every day the way the molecules and the electrons flow. A second example is India, which is an important growth market to Shell. We are transforming a traditional LNG regas business into a fully integrated gas and power value chain. India is targeting to increase the share of natural gas in its primary energy consumption from 6% towards its aspired target of 15% by 2,030. Now starting with the optionality of LNG supply to Harzira and further optionality in the different parts of the chain, We are delivering vital energy to our customers, while at the same time lowering regional CO2 emissions in Western India, providing air quality improvements And reducing costs for companies. Further steps in the decarbonization journey are achieved through our investments in cleantech solar, building solar installations at our sites and the customer sites, mangrove plantations. And additionally, societal impact is achieved in delivering power for more than 100 minutei grids that support more than 5,000 microenterprise customers. Now today, I have given you an in-depth overview of Shell's IG business, serving the energy demand of customers in the transition to a net zero world. I explained why we are uniquely positioned to capture the opportunities in the growing LNG market and will excel and lead in this business for decades to come and how we will create further value from adjacencies with our integrated power and our hydrogen businesses in these complex energy systems of the future. And finally, our belief The natural gas and LNG have credible pathways to a net zero status in their own right, making them an essential part of the world's long term energy mix and central to our strategy of powering progress. With that, let me take your questions and invite Steve into the conversation. We can move to questions please. Joao? Here is our first question from Thomas Adolff of Credit Suisse. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question again. Two questions, please. You've talked about how digital will help you keep utilization rates Cai of the liquefaction trains, but earlier on you also mentioned the lack of investment which will lead to lower utilization rates. How do you see the base business performing in your portfolio. Then secondly, you might go into a bit of detail, but essentially, I'm asking the outlook to 2,030. Martin, I think we've discussed this a number of years ago. Prior to the FID on LNG Canada, you had about 70,000,000 tons of LNG sales. And if you look down to 2,030, Roughly half of that would have expired, right, either aging hubs or contract expiries. And there were 3 ways to renew it, right? New equity FIDs, whether brownfield or greenfield, new third party offtake agreements or contract renewals or extensions. And I wonder since then what progress you've made on those 35,000,000 tonnes you would have lost and whether you're comfortable to get to 100,000,000 tons by 2,030, which would be growth in line with the market. Thank you. Yes. Thanks, Thomas. On your first question, What we note is that the industry has not invested enough in upstream gas supply and in their own LNG plants in order to keep utilization up for the coming years. In our own case, investments in backfilled gas have by and large stayed as we planned last year. What has happened so there I don't expect much impact, although we do expect industry impact. What has happened is that we've pushed a number of turnarounds from 2020 into 2021, 2022 because we simply couldn't get with the people on-site last year during COVID. And that will give us a bit more turnaround time, a bit more plan supply this year and potentially into next year in order to kind of catch up with this turnaround and these turnarounds and with the maintenance. Within our business, we have not seen a slowdown in, let's say, petrol gas investment. But generally in industry, we have seen that. So we do expect overall volumes to be a bit suppressed as a result. In our case, it's simply the shutdowns that will have a bit of an impact this year. To your second question, Of course, we don't set volume targets or at least I would hate to set volume targets. I'm sure Steve's team could Shell 100,000,000 tons a share if I really told them to. But it would have a slice of business that either it doesn't create value or even destroys So the last thing I would want is for the team to feel that it needs to hit a particular number. But I guess your question is also directional. Indeed with the investments in Canada and in Nigeria, where we've FID fresh volumes into the portfolio, which is great. We've certainly signed a good number of long term purchase contracts in the market that will help fortify our portfolio, but there also still are a number of extensions to our business that are still ahead of us. I would mention, for example, Oman, which will expire in 2024 or the Equatorial Guinea Supply contract that expires before the middle of the decade. So we have a number of areas where we have homework to do. I can give you and perhaps also Lucas if he's online, The peace of mind that when we make our cash flow projections for the medium term, Any extensions that we haven't yet secured are not in those cash flow projections. So that really is only about business we know we will have rather than business that we hope to have. So there's a potential upside there if we secure a number of extensions there. But I say to you today and I said 2 weeks ago that we want to and will seek to grow with the market, which indeed Means growing those energy volumes over time in the direction of the number you mentioned. But clearly, volume target will be the wrong thing to deploy. Perfect. Thank you. We will now move on to our Question from Biraj Borkhataria of RBC. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Hi, thanks for taking my questions. My first question is on some of your carbon neutral LNG sales. Presumably, over time, that will make you more sensitive to the carbon intensity of the assets. And a few times in this presentation and previously, you've highlighted that and then kind of Well, on that basis because of the hydropower use. But I've never seen any numbers associated with that. So are you able to highlight where that screens versus the industry and just some numbers would be helpful context there. And then the second question is a follow-up to Thomas' question. But When I think about options you have in the portfolio, such as entrants into the Qatari LNG expansion, Maybe not specifically to that project, but when you look at decisions like this, can you talk about how you determine whether you want just the offtake Thank you. Yes. Thanks, Debbie. Let me take both. You're absolutely right that the carbon content of A cargo matters already to many of our customers and I think it will matter more going forward. I can well imagine it becoming a spec of LNG that we trade and that we optimize later in this decade more as a rule than as an exception. And therefore, indeed, if you want to sell offset cargoes, It really matters how much credit you need to apply depends on the carbon intensity. LNG Canada It's less than half of the industry average of the carbon intensity and is the most carbon competitive will be the most carbon competitive plant in the world. We haven't actually given the numbers and it's something for us to consider. So we will think about whether we want to actually share the carbon intensity of it, but that's where it sits against the industry. So it is a step change, not just because it uses hydropower, but also because of all the other Equipment choices that have been made here, which is very much has had carbon in mind. And also the way we produce the upstream in Canada in ground words, although it's shale gas, it's very, very low carbon because it's fully electrified And again, using mostly hydropower. So it is very carbon competitive. To your second point, We clearly like to have the offtake from competitive projects if we can buy it at a reasonable price and particularly at reasonable flexibility. Whether we will invest or not really depends on the terms and offer and whether that investment gives us any more control over the scheduling of the plant, over what to do with flexible cargoes, etcetera, because that's often where value gets created, actually on the interface of managing a plant and managing a trading portfolio. So the more input that we can have on how plants are managed, how the LNG is scheduled and how the shutdowns are scheduled, The more value we the more optionality we can create. But at the end of the day, an investment will have to meet the return threshold and would have to fit into the overall return, the IRR picture that we've given you that I talked about in my speech and we gave you on Strategy Day. That's very helpful. Thank you. We will now move on to our next question from with the operator. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Yes, thank you very much. I hope you can hear me okay. And sorry, I had trouble with my phone line earlier in the earlier session. So one question on the macro, if I may, and one on the Shell strategy. Just wanted to ask the kind of outlook you presented earlier today, how or which scenario that you presented a couple of weeks ago that comes closest to where I think Sky would probably lead you to a different conclusion in the next 20, 30 years in terms of looking at when global gas demand peaks. So I wonder when it's time to pick a different date Rather than talk about 2,040 in your LNG outlook. And the second question is perhaps along similar lines to what Thomas just asked. I wonder whether what you've experienced over the last year, but also over the last few years of updating these LNG outlooks, You think the degree of vertical integration in your LNG supply footprint is about right, no matter how fast you wanted to grow Sales versus your upstream liquefaction. I hope that makes sense. Thank you. Yes. No, I think it makes a lot of sense. Steve, maybe you can take the you can come back on the first Question after I have a go at second one. The degree of vertical integration to me is almost a more important Elements in the portfolio than the exact market share that we have in the market. But when I talk further integration, I don't necessarily mean that I have to be all the way from the wellhead to the customer. It is more about the kind of about the flexibility that I have in the chain. So if I have an offtake agreement where I have a lot of flexibility. That to me is sufficiently vertically integrated to count. With the trend lines, assets or trend line trading agreements are can be elements of the portfolio, but are not particularly exciting because they don't add value to the rest. They are only valuable in their own rights. And given our competitive industry, these are quite hard to find. So we tend to find that the way things make more sense to us than to others is through integration through vertical integration rather than on a stand alone basis. Christoph, is that an answer to your question? Or did I misinterpret that part of it? Yes. Thank you. That's helpful. Just wondered whether you think the short position today has perhaps become more valuable Than it was considering what's happened to the market. Yes. I think we always try Stephen, I always try to build portfolios That behave well in many market circumstances because it's so hard to predict where things are going. But see, let me I'll give you the floor if you have a thought on that and on the other part of Chris' question. Yes. So on Chris' first question, Long term, the outlook is somewhere between waves and islands. It's but you kind of dismissed Sky as being a competitor. Actually, for the next decade, Sky is in the range. It's only after 2,030 that that has gas demand tailing off Much more quickly. So from now to 2,030, they're all relatively And once together, waves is at the top of the range and Islands is at the bottom. Our outlook in Sky is somewhere in between. After 2,030, Sky falls off And the outlook is probably at the in the higher end of the range between waves and islands. I'm sorry, I missed the second question. So I was looking at the first one in detail. Can you just repeat that? I'll answer the second question. I just was wondering whether you had any further thoughts on that on integration. I would just add perhaps Chris that of course the LNG outlook It's basically an average or an interpretation of 3rd party outlooks. We don't overlay it with our own scenarios. And so what you see is that the 3rd party outlooks are more bullish on natural gas than with SKYY 1.5, but are somewhere in the range with the 2 other scenarios. Of course, what will actually play out is relatively uncertain. And therefore, what is really, really important is that you have affordable LNG, that you're on the left hand of the cost curve So if we get more of a sky scenario that our energy continues to be competitive in what, in that case, will be quite a competitive market? Yes. On integration, I think that it's a concept that has a lot of value for us. Clearly, over time, The value in the LNG chain can move upstream and downstream. And our integrated model, it kind of gives us a position wherever the value happens to be at the time. And then the optionality that's created by having a chain with multiple supply sources, multiple shorts, our own market positions, It unlocks a lot of the trading value we subsequently capture. What really excites me though as well is the integration Martin showed in his presentation about about between gas and power and hydrogen and offsets and CCS and the integrated cleaner energy system because We play in all those different parts of the market. And when you've got all those options in an advantaged network, that's A tremendously exciting opportunity for a trading business. Yes. And the business I would add that very few people in the world Can play in. If you look at clearly, we have new competitors as we move. That's not the topic of today, but as we move deeper into power, deeper into hydrogen, but many of the people that we meet in that business don't have this gas business, don't have that opportunity and that trading sophistication to optimize these energy systems. So I do indeed believe that that is a significant differentiator going forward. Let's move to the next, John. Understood. Thank you. We'll take our next question from Anish Kapadia of Palasi, please go ahead. Your line is open. Good afternoon. Yes, I've had some questions on project outlook. Firstly, I was thinking about the Eastern Med area because there's been an awful lot of gas discovered in that area. It seems like Egypt is getting its act together in regards of restarting LNG plants. I just really want to see your thoughts in terms of the growth in LNG from Egypt and potentially Other projects coming either through Egypt, like Israel, Cyprus, some floating LNG, how you see that playing out over the next 5, 5 to 10 years or so? And then secondly, just if you could give some updates on both some of the lower return, Higher risk projects in your portfolio such as Tanzania and the Indonesian projects in terms of those the growth potential there and how you're thinking about them. Thanks. So, there and how you're thinking about them. Thanks. Yes. Thanks. The Egypt situation is a fascinating one. And I guess if you're going to have an empty LNG plant anywhere, then the East Med is not a bad place to have it Because every time someone drills a hole, they find gas, it seems, although not everybody all the time. But there is clearly a lot of gas now discovered and a lot of exploration going on. And so Almost certainly and fundamentally, our Egypt LNG plant that has not done much in the last few years It will be a will fit itself in the course of this decade. It is our task to trying to get as much control over those molecules as we can commercially and potentially even economically and physically because then we can build the most valuable value chains and that requires exploration and it requires commercial negotiation And it requires a degree of political maneuvering, but of course, the EastMed is not free of political position taking. I do absolutely believe that the EastMed will be a source of significant can be a source of significant value for us And of course, positioned beautifully between the Atlantic and the Pacific Basin. So I'm optimistic there. I I think between the guys in Egypt, in Israel and Cyprus, we will find ways to orchestrate that for enough of that to come to our plant for that to be a significant source of value. To your other questions, that I wouldn't necessarily characterize Tanzania is a low risk or a low return, high risk project. I don't like low return, high risk. I would say it's more a high return, high risk project. It is very competitive and cheap to produce offshore gas and 16 Tcf of it, which is A fantastic starting point. That's a bit like saffroning type volumes. And in principle, not so easy not so difficult to get onshore. And in principle, you could buy you could build a very competitive potentially modular LNG plant onshore in Tanzania. The issue there really is indeed the political risk that we need to overcome. And we will only when we overcome it, we will Pushed the go button, but I think LNG from Tanzania fundamentally is very valuable LNG if you can get past the political risk equation. And so we're working on that, but not in a hurry. We have enough other places at the moment to build in. But if I can do take Transania over time an investment decision based on solid fundamentals, I will. Abadi is a different story. We have decided to market our value. And again, that is not a low return project. In the total portfolio of assets we have on priorities, it simply doesn't at the moment attract funding. And the government and our partner are quite keen to get on with it. And for us, it will be a later project for later in the decade as things tick up now. So it's probably better if somebody else Let's move, if that's okay, Henrik? Perfect. Thanks. Thank you. Okay. Let's move John to the next question. Move on to our Our next question comes from Lucas Herman of Exane. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Steve, thanks again. Hi again. And thanks for coming back on the earlier observation or comment around Thomas. A couple of others, if I might. I can see it and I can feel it in terms of India or Australia, what you're doing building out value chain. Well, I have absolutely no idea how to put a value on it or think about the incremental income that comes. So I guess the question of you is, how do you help me understand not the concept, but the hard financial Benefit and when do you think we start to see it in a meaningful way? And secondly, perhaps slightly more cheeky, mousetraps, Welcome, Steve. You like leaving them about. How do they work for you through this Q1? Yes. Thanks, Lucas. Good question. Mousetraps is by the way The second reason apart from the extensions that we don't count on in our projections is perhaps the second reason why we're a little bit disappointed with our Cash projection for the medium term. We occasionally get Successful with our mouse ships and that then flows through our results in the previous years. But of course, they are hard to put into your plan, because it really depends on the events that are impenable, with weather events or other events and therefore, we see them in our actuals. We tend not to plan for them and it can look like if you look at a Stream of actuals that are medium term projections are perhaps a little bit on the light side, but I wouldn't want to promise Events such as the weather events. The your other question is a bit on It's hard to give you modeling advice on. In some hubs such as the ones that we described today, that optimization is real today and maybe Steve can talk a little bit perhaps to the Australian example that is currently the most material one. The one that I described is also a system where hydrogen plays a big role and of course that at the moment It's still a projection. I do believe when Hydrogen becomes in the course of this decade a more significant business, There will be a significant supply trading optimization element to it and those who can produce the cheapest Green and blue hydrogen and mix and match and get into the right place and have the right logistical control points will have some significant with the advantages in the market there. Because some of these hubs will take a little bit of time to construct, but some of them are live. Can you talk Do you do one or two examples there maybe Steve? Sure. Well, Australia is a very obvious example over the last year. We talked earlier about LNG prices being at 20 year lows and all time highs over the past year. You can think about QCLNG in many ways, but one way to think about it is an option between the Australian domestic gas markets and the LNG markets. There's obviously constraints on how that option can be utilized, both within The constraints of the business and the government policies in agenda in Australia. But clearly, there's been times when the domestic Gas price in Australia has been significantly higher than the LNG price and vice versa. So that type of flexibility is It has a value for us. One of the other businesses we're growing at the moment is a power business in Japan. It's still very small business, but we are a participant in the Japanese power market now, and we're trying to link our LNG business to our power business in Japan. And 2021 has already been an interesting year in terms of price environment. We've seen record high prices for electricity in Japan. We've seen High LNG prices. We've seen high gas and power prices in the U. S. So the longer We create these value chains the more options we have. The combination of the optionality of the value chain and the trading business, It gives us money to make that. And again, it's not just the capturing the optionalities. It's seeing these Trends come. So by being in the Japanese power market, it's another way where we would get insights coming to us for what was likely to happen in the LNG market early in the year. Yes. Singapore will be another place where between the gas and the power market and the significant demand we have from our own industrial assets, we find very frequently ways to optimize the fact that we are the main LNG importer into Singapore and that we are a very large power consumer as well And increasingly can play these markets off against each other. So many opportunities, many big and small with Maestro, the one that you saw last year in our results in Q1 was obviously when we correctly got the falling LNG price and benefited from that in the Q1 results. And we would always continue to try and prepare for these events. We don't always get them right, but it's definitely a feature of our business. Martin, if I were to ask you, if I look back at that particular slide showing operating cash flow And was to say, okay, over the last 5 years, on average, what was the trading income or the income that you managed to realize from the That's inherent in your portfolio. Would you be willing to disclose or put a number on it? The answer is no, but it's always a positive number because otherwise we don't have to do optimizations and we simply stay with the base business. But as of course, we've said a few times, it is not so easy to actually separate these things. If we're able to squeeze Additional cargo out of LNG of Nigeria LNG out of Sakhalin and selling through our trading system to a particularly well paying customer. It's always a little bit difficult to say where that value was created. Was it in the reservoir and submarine? Was it in the operator's decision to squeeze the extra cargo out? Or was it in Steve's brilliant trading operation? And I'm also interested. It is produced that result in the unique integrated business model that we have. So we don't actually make that sum. We make it on a legal entity basis, but that is Just a transfer pricing discussion. We like to think of the business as integrated. So I know and understand why you're interested in that, but I can't actually give you the number. And if I had it, I probably wouldn't, but I don't have it. Okay. Well, Steve, thanks very much. We'll move on to our next question from Paul Cheng of Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead. Thank you. Good afternoon. I have to apologize first I want to ask one of the questions is on trading again. Just want to see that Steve or Mark and Dan, Whether you can tell us for your loan equity LNG sales, those that you purchase and then we sell it. Are those you purchased it at time, can you tell us that what percent those you purchased on the spot Market and what percentage is under long term contract? And also that quarter, we sell back those we sell volume, What percent you're actually just unloading in the spot market and what percent is on your long term customer contracts? That's the first question. The second question that I think you're talking about The project extension will be 14% to 18% internal rate of return. That seems extremely high for a long lead time LNG project. I'm not sure anyone has been able to achieve it. So can you tell us that whether Your current portfolio is already achieving bad kind of return. And what is the LNG Canada, your expected return at what commodity prices that you assume. And if I can put in a sign, you sold 7 Carbon neutral LNG cargo that have you seen any price differential for the selling price for those comparing to your regular cargo? Thank you. Let me first check if you can hear me, because My system is indicating that Now I can hear you. Thank you. Excellent. Okay. Thank you. Maybe Steve can think a bit about the percentage of spot and term in our purchases and sales and come back to both those statistics and the philosophy behind it. What we've indicated In our returns presentation is indeed 2 data points. It's the 12% minimum IRR for investments. And Energy Caregna, we reported as 13% when we took FID, and that number stands. And it's at a middle of the road macro environment. The higher returns tend to come in, for example, expansions. So if I build a Train 7 in Nigeria with all the utilities and the tanks and the jetties and the skilled workforce available. Then I tend to actually be able to sit in the higher part of that return. And And of course, our highest returns come from the backfill volumes. So the 17% and beyond If I develop an offshore gas field in Trinidad or indeed an upstream development in Nigeria or in Australia that feeds an existing LNG plant, Well, the only additional investment that I need to do is generate a few upstream wells. Then you really get into the very high IRR. So the portfolio consists of all these 3 of greenfields expansions and of backfill. The greenfields tend to sit at the lower end, but the backfills that will sit in the middle of that range or sorry, the expenses sit in the middle of that range And then the backfill upstream projects would tend to pull the range up, and that's how it works, if that helps. Stig, do you want to take the other question? Martin, what price assumption you were using at 13%, you say mid cycle, you said Based on, say, $60 brand or $55 brand wheel price, what year? Is it 2020 or 2017 when you sanctioned it? We would always look at the year we sanctioned. We don't disclose the exact Price, the numbers you mentioned are reasonable. So in our LNG update earlier today, we shared that the overall LNG market we see as being about 70% of the volumes are sold under long term contract and about 30% under spot sales. The percentages for our portfolio will be slightly higher on the long term contracts, both on the purchase side and on the sales side. So Steve, that you're saying that even for the resale barrel on resale cargo that you are still that more than 70% is for the long term take or pay contract? Correct. Yes. It's close to Yes. I will. And then Go ahead. Yes, I'm sorry. No, I understand fully. I just want to understand fully that for the cargo that you purchased and then you resell, Those cars that you purchased it is also under long term contracts or That is higher than 30% Under a long term contract and sold under a spot contract or they may be purchased under a spot contract and sold under a long term contract Or they may be put into one of our own import terminals and our own downstream market positions. But when you look at our portfolio overall, Yes. The amount of spot changes year on year depending on the market conditions. Some conditions give rise to a lot of optimization potential and you get quite a high spot volume, others less so. But typically, you would expect that 70% to 80% of our purchases are Purchased under long term take or pay contracts and a similar amount on our sales. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much, Joao. We will now move on to our next question from Thijs Beckaelder of ABN with Amro Auto, BHF. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Yes. Good afternoon, gentlemen. First question is on carbon emissions. If I go to Shell's new goals, You aim for a reduction of, what is it, 40% by 2,035 or so? Is integrated gas also committing to that 40% for integrated gas by itself by 2,035? Or shouldn't should we look differently at that target? And maybe a request on general data. I get one number for upstream and integrated gas, greenhouse gas intensity and no Separate data at all on the, let's say, the split between Australia and other parts of the world. Is it maybe possible in the near future to give much more data so that we can actually prove that Shell is on the way to reduce that carbon intensity. Yes. Thanks, Dejesen. Thanks for joining today. On your second question, I think that's an excellent suggestion. Let me take that up with the team. The IR team is on the line and we can see and perhaps and work out a bit more offline. What would be meaningful and what is what data do we have that is stable and reproducible, but giving a bit more insight into our carbon intensity across the businesses is clearly something we should be doing. So I think it's good suggestion. Let's take a look on how we follow-up on that. I don't know what time frame we would give you a bit more information there. The carbon intensity targets that we set are enterprise wide targets. So the total of RDS will achieve those reductions in carbon intensity. And of course, the sources for this will be different. The Renewables and Energy Solutions business will never even get to the carbon intensity of Shell. It will stay far below it. And by growing it aggressively over the next 5, 10, 15 years, it will reduce the average. The integrated gas business itself is at the moment beneficial to Shell's carbon intensity because the carbon intensity the LNG and Gas business actually lower than Shell's average. But there comes a point in time on our way to 0 where it isn't anymore, Where it actually hits that average and where it could if it's not careful become a drag on that average. And so it needs to go on its own net 0 journey, mindful of the overall corporate target. But indeed, over time, There will be no hiding place for everybody because I think the whole group will need to be net 0. But at the moment, it is it pulls the group average down and will continue to do so for quite some time, but and it will continue to need to work on to stay in that position for as long as possible. With the 40% doesn't necessarily apply to every business or to every venture by itself. It applies to the global portfolio. But of course, we can only get there if everybody travels and travels fast. Does it help, Ed? Yes. Yes. But do you then, as a business unit, already have a goal to reach by 2,035, something like, for instance, 25% or so? Yes. It's a really good question, David. And it comes back to the carbon management the framework that we talked about on 11 February. And that goes really to the heart of what we want to achieve. And it sets carbon management objectives for each part of the business. And so for example, in Steve's business, we would for example talk about how we want to develop the LNG, the carbon neutral cargo business over time in order to improve. In the Power business, it will talk about how much ahead of the market average carbon footprint we want to be. So It then becomes quite specific, not generally, so let's say, one measure for the business, but we try to make it down with very specific Goals that business units can go after and then it's hard to ask to make sure it all adds up to the corporate target that we set. So LNG plant might have a reduction in intensity target. Steve's marketeers might have an LNG carbon neutral target. And in that way, we target all parts of the business. And Eastman might have his own hydrogen and Shell recharge targets in order to get to the 2,035 number. So we break it down much deeper than just the target for business. Yes. Then maybe one add on question, and that's on, let's say, LNG Shipping. You have great growth projections for LNG Shipping for the coming 10 years. And then I would say hydrogen or ammonia comes in. Is it then a big turnaround that you start to promote hydrogen? How does it then work in the Petrol between Shell Hydrogen and Shell LNG. Steve, do you want to go first? I'll talk about the petrol. I think you were talking about shipping from the perspective of shipping fuel And our fuel supply into the shipping industry. But actually, LNG is one of the great examples where we've been driving the emissions down within the LNG industry already. We're using bigger ships. We're using bigger ships. We're using bigger ships. We're using We're using bigger ships with larger capacities that have much lower emissions than 5 or 10 years ago, and we're continually upgrading our LNG shipping fleet to make sure we're operating with the latest technology and the lowest emissions. In terms of shipping demand, LNG is clearly the cleanest option available today, as Martin mentioned, and we're working very hard to develop the infrastructure to maximize our ability to supply LNG The fuel to the shipping industry around the world. There's some uncertainty what will be the next fuel for shipping, whether it be methanol or ammonia or hydrogen. Hydrogen, we think, is the better solution. But there's a lot of infrastructure to be built to supply hydrogen to all the other sources of demand for hydrogen and shipping as well. Shipping tends to be a buyer of The cheapest available fuel. So it may not be the sector that drives Hydrogen demand, it may be the beneficiary of hydrogen production that's developed to meet demand in other sectors. So it may be some time before we see Hydrogen is a widespread fuel in shipping, but we will absolutely make sure that the LNG and the hydrogen It's being sold by the same people to shipping companies rather than 2 different branches of Shell competing. Yes. And I would say, guys, I would imagine this in waves. So at the moment, if you look at the total shipping business, it's essentially fuel oil. It is our projection and our target for LNG to penetrate as much as possible, But I don't think LNG will penetrate 100% in the next 10 to 15 years. I mean, that will be great, but that will be hard to achieve. And so when hydrogen or ammonia for that matter or methanol comes into that market, the first thing that will start to displace is actually the rest of the fuel And of course, at some point in time, it's a bit like the power business where we say, At the moment, the urgent priority is get coal out of power and by growing gas and renewables aggressively. By the time we really have coal out of power, then of course, let's drive renewables hard to reduce the roll of gas To truly get to net 0, and I think that will be a bit the story in shipping as well. For now, we should absolutely cheer on LNG to displace fuel. Then when the net zero solution, hydrogen or whatever else comes in displacing the rest of fuel oil with it is the first priority. And then indeed at some point, It will start to displace energy back. But if you look at the time lines for either any of these three solutions, ammonia, methanol or hydrogen, To be, 1st of all, be proven because none of them is proven as a into shipping and then to build global production the end to build global distribution capability. You're into the 2030s before that journey even starts. And then you're into well into the 2040s before LNG and hydrogen actually start to compete in shipping because there's no fuel oil to be displaced anymore. By then, you and I will no longer worry about this question, but I can assure you Shell will make sure that the net zero fuel dominates. We will now move on to our next question from Bertrand Hodee of with the operator. Yes. Thank you for taking my questions, if I may. The first one is on Shell Gas It's now 10 years. It is in operation, so quite a long time. There were huge CapEx associated with that. However, it's a pollution chain contract. So can you tell us Where do you stand in terms of your cost oil recovery? Have you fully recovered your costs already? And meaning that you are Ex cost oil and can we expect some negative impact When you will be ex cost for soil? Or are there any profit sharing rules Mechanism trigger that will happen in 2021 or onwards. So really my question, I don't want with financial impact. Just wanted to know whether this first oil desaturation has already happened or is still to come Well, there is also some profit or negative impact in the coming years. And my second question is on Tanzania. It's a follow-up. Have you taken any impairments on Tanzania? And do you still have value for Tanzania with the details. Thank you, Bertrand. Let me on ProDTL, there's very little I can tell you because The production sharing agreement is obviously confidential. It's something you can You can't access it, and I'm not allowed to tell you any detail of it. Perhaps the easiest answer to give you that You will not see a change in trend in underlying trend in Qatar in 2021 compared to recent history. So let's say compared to 2020, where other than, of course, the oil price having started out the year looking a bit more bullish than it did last year. But unfortunately, I can't give you the detail of Qatar. What it isn't as binary as you describe or as people sometimes think, not So much as you described, because of course, we continue to spend capital in Qatar to maintain and to debottleneck, etcetera, and these amounts also come into the mechanism. But you won't see a change in trend in 2021 or for that matter in 2022 in Qatar. Your second question, Martin Anderson, just remind me. I didn't write it down. Yes. It was on Tanzania, Whether you did take some impairments on Tanzania? Yes. It's hardly in our books. So there is not much book value to worry about. Okay. Thank you. We will now move on to our next question, comes from Jason Gabelman of Cowen. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Caller, you may have your cell phone Jason, your line is now open. Please go ahead. We will move on to our next question from Roger Read of Wells Fargo. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Yes, thanks. Quick question for you as we kind of get to the CO2 intensity issues. Has there been any transaction to this point that IG has not made because of Too high of the CI intensity. And then you mentioned earlier that Shell Canada has a real Good carbon intensity footprint. I was wondering if you could highlight what specifically about that project scores well on the CI scale? Okay. Well, let me take the second one and see if Steve has any example of Of a business that we didn't do for carbon reasons, it's a good question. I couldn't come up with one immediately, but give you some thinking time. So yes, in Canada, first of all, the upstream that we have in Ground Burch It's essentially electrified. So we use no gas to produce gas, which is important. And we use hydro energy to produce gas, which is, of course, 0 CO2. And we have made sure that the equipment that we use in Garnberg It's energy efficient and doesn't leak, let's say, methane and that flaring is really, really a very, very rare event. So Our upstream in Groundbridge is highly greenhouse gas competitive. And then the midstream solution we're building in Kitimat the selection and choice that we've made LNG Canada is advantaged almost every piece of the machinery in terms of its energy efficiency. Its potential to leak methane, which is very, very, very tight. And then of course, finally, the shipping distance to Asia is relatively short compared to, let's say, LNG from the Gulf. And so all that together makes that the most carbon competitive LNG chain in the world by some margin. Could you come up with any examples, Steve? I think the best example is when we think about how we're building our power business. There is some parts of our power strategy or the power industry, which we've clearly decided We don't want to participate in either we don't want to participate in coal generation or Commercial constructs, which are underpinned by long term coal contracts. We do want to participate in renewables, But clearly, there's a very attractive opportunity for us to participate in gas fired power when it's replacing coal Or replacing oil fired power, particularly in Ireland markets, but there may be other cases where we don't think gas fired power is sustainable. So it very much drives our thinking And therefore, individual deals that may or may not fit the strategy. I agree. In the Power business, it's clear. Okay. Just to go ahead. Yes. I was just really looking to clarify, was there anything in the existing LNG world, Meaning that Canada LNG obviously scores well. Was there an LNG project out there you wouldn't want to buy the gas from because it has A poor score on the CI side or if there's anything as you kind of rank them globally, you don't have to give us a name, but is there, boy, I really wouldn't want to from supplier X because it doesn't score well. Are we still few years away from that where clients are going to say, I don't want that gas because it doesn't score well. I think that's definitely coming. We haven't seeing that in the market yet, although we have customers who want to know what the CO2 concentration is of the gas and energy produced. I'm not aware that we've turned down LNG supply for an LNG supplier for that reason. And of course, we own a few pretty old plants, being one of the founding fathers of the LNG industry. Bruna LNG got going in 1974. Now of course, much of it has been rejuvenated and replaced over time. But it's an example of an energy plant that doesn't compete with energy Canada, shall we say, on this footprint. So the answer is no, but it is a really good question because I think that question is coming in terms of what do we continue to accept, but also what particularly and even more relevant, what do our customers continue to accept. Thank you. John, do we have any more questions? And it appears we have no further questions over the audio, sir, at this time. So let's give it a minute if unless we have exhausted this crowd. And if so, I really want to thank you for spending time with us, particularly if you joined us for the 2 meetings. This was a first where we had first the outlook, which is an industry outlook and then the Shell specific meeting. I realize that takes 3 out of your time. But we still like to keep the outlook as an industry product rather than something that is a Shell story. But we welcome feedback on that setup from all of you and we certainly welcome the high level of interest that you've shown in our business. We look forward to continuing to stay in touch as Steve and I continue to drive the LNG business in Shell and of course alongside with the power, the hydrogen, the environmental product businesses to new heights for our shareholders, but also very much because we believe it's highly, highly relevant to the energy tradition in the world. So So thank you very much for your time today and for your continued interest in Shell. We look forward to staying in touch and we wish you a really good rest of the week. And we are now in the post conference. I have been looking at a white screen with a little blue circle going around for the last 25 minutes. So I was really worried that somehow that my conversation was coming to a sad end. But somehow In the background, this thing kept working. So So there was a moment, maybe 2 minutes or so, where you were speaking, but your video was frozen. Over there. But then you came back. You were being heard all the way through. I guess you then didn't read our comments in the chat. That wasn't noticed. It did well. Yes, no problem whatsoever, Martin. So we will check what happened from a technology point of view there because For us, it works perfectly. And indeed, but we got via our team app at a certain moment. We got a coming back that you were frozen, and then they went into it, and I think they got it sorted. So Mariana, any comments on that? No, we're looking into it. I know there were Wi Fi issues in the beginning of the afternoon. So I did inform the EC engineers. So they were they will look into it. Okay. Okay. Generally, my WiFi is very good. So It's better than Ben's. So Yes, yes, yes. It's not a high hurdle, but Stop just a moment, please. Timo, are you all right? Yes. We still can be heard. Someone is telling you on the link. Marian, can you please check that we are for people who are dialing the webcast to not be available. The webcast has stopped already. I can hear Martin. So the webcast has stopped. Anna, who expert Yes. Can you hear me? Maybe it's safer can we set up a separate chat for the debrief? Well, we could just do it via Skype, why do we because we don't need all the technical people in there. Yes. We call you separately, Martin and the All right. Thanks. Thanks, everyone. Bye. Yes, many thanks. Well done. Bye. Thank you. Simon, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. No, I thought they couldn't hear me. Martin Stavroch. That's really weird, because it's impossible for the only There's no way that, that post conference would have been broadcast because I was watching the stream and the stream dropped while the music was playing. I mean you only left Yes. I waited until I heard like the first sounds of the music, and then I hit stop events. So But I wonder then, in that case, whether there's a delay, there's something going on with our service then. Yes, that's the thing. I just clicked Stop. So you can see because Nicola, I remember for the incident or whatever, she was able to see like when who hit stop or whatever. I hit stop As well after like they started to say like, oh, they could still hear us. But I hadn't refreshed my page. So it was probably already on stop because you saw it end in the audience link. So yes, I don't know, it's a bit weird. That is really weird. I think we need to speak to Nikro about this one because I I was watching the webcast here and it cut off, but I wonder whether there's a delay somewhere with that signal then and they continue to push it out somewhere, Because you guys were experiencing a completely different experience to what we were getting from Europe. Yes. I didn't see any of that here, here in OTM. Yes. In the U. S. Had the same. She also had a frozen image from Martin. So it's really Who does? Katie, I think, believe, let me check. We have a technical chat on Teams. It's just odd that we didn't have it here in the but we were in the office. Katie from U. S. Season frozen. So I think that's Katie Cottonham, I'm not sure. Yes. I mean, his video did freeze, but at no point did we lose the audio. And if he was looking at a white screen, that's bizarre, isn't it? So it obviously kicked him completely out. Yes. I think it because on the For me on the Zoom, it never froze, but potentially on the I guess on the audience link. That's why I said maybe if you promote me to host, Maybe it would do some switch in the background or something like that, and then it would mirror my stream instead of yours? Yes. Because I'm assuming that on the audience link, it froze because it was the issue was with the NL data center. Okay. Yes. I mean, it wasn't a big deal, right? It was 2 minutes and the audio wasn't interrupted. But it's still just very strange, I guess, That on the Zoom, you were getting a different experience than we were. I'm trying to think how that post conference would have been broadcast. It was an AT and T, was it, broadcast In the audios, how quickly do you stay cut off? I don't know. It's a good question. Because I just can't work out. The only thing I can imagine that it's AT and T. Yes, maybe AT and T didn't. And he knows When we stop because he closes and then we play the music. So I think he might be here. Maybe that's where it came from, that sound. They didn't discuss anything confidential. They were just talking about how the event went, but That is yes, it's an interesting one. A little concerning just thinking what might have happened here, right? Yes, yes. It's getting dark here. With I did inform Victor, and he has the timings when his in the beginning, Yes, like flickering, like his audio froze for like a second. And then I did tell Victor when his video froze, so he does have the times. Yes. I think it's a Sequoia thing probably. But on the other hand, he did have Wi Fi issues before. So let's See if we can also like look into Tonica to look into the like data centers because I don't know like I'm just thinking it's something to do with like the Enel Data center and Zoom because all of them, they were saying that it was frozen. And with the ones that were in Zoom, Timo, yourself, Simon and all of you guys like She is still online. Yes, she is still online at the Ping An actually. Yes. Yes. Because All of you guys are on the Netherlands data center and then Jim and then myself and Steve are on the U. S. Data center. And then I wonder if how it looks like for Simi because she's on the Singapore data center according to with the Zoom dashboard. So I wonder if it froze for her too. Because yes, that was just weird. Because it makes sense of why it froze on Sequoias, Because Sequoia, American that's going on with the host. So if the issue was hanging with Mariana, it was and happen on the stream. So this is going to break neatly. I know this is a complicated one. But then that's Yes, and exactly. And also because it's him and only him. It's only Martin. Yes. So I mean, I think the issue you see I I don't know. That's bizarre. But then the other good point is, yes, part of the checklist that we need to add now is I completely forgot to check whether they had the latest version of Zoom. I mean, because they still, right, if it's like if it gets to the point where it's like too outdated, Zoom will prompt you to update it whenever you try to join. Yes. Still, I always feel more comfortable whenever people update it, but it's Pretty impressive. I ran an update like 2 weeks ago. Yes, I'm on a higher version than you. Yes. 5.5, yes. So yes, I mean, because they do updates all the time, and that's the problem with this not being a managed application. People have to manually And Jim is on the latest version as well. He's on 5.5. So I don't know though, because Steve I don't know if it's on Steve's computer. Could you see Steve's computer, Jim, if Martin was freezing at all there? It didn't look like it because Steve was just talking, and I didn't notice anything with Steve. Yes. We don't I didn't see Steve moving around, so Yes. I had my computer hooked up to the main screen, so that's what we were watching. Okay. Yes, I don't know. It's just yes, it's kind of weird, but Okay. Are you going to call, Nick, if you Yes. I mean, should we bring her into the call? Yes, if you want to. I was just about to log off. Now I have to write a heads up. Yes, and Jim, if you need to go. I'm fine. All right. Just a minute. You guys aren't going to do a full day's work now, are you? You're going to log off early? I have a dry run at 3 o'clock, so that's not an option Yes, me neither. Yes. We'll try to take off some time tomorrow afternoon maybe. Yes, me too. Yes, if you can have a bit of a long weekend, then that would be nice. Yes. So we'll probably take a nap as soon as I open the data. It depends on how because like sometimes whenever I have mornings like this, I'll consume like a lot of caffeine and it'll It'll just be kind of zombie ish, and I won't be able to sleep until later, but let's see. She's not responding back. I think we could probably drop off, But we can have a chat with her about it maybe tomorrow, Marielle. Okay. Yes, sure. Yes. Because that was complicated. A few things there. I think part of it was caused obviously by Martin's Internet But that thing where people could hear the post conference, that's really weird. Yes. Even Cherk is asking me now. He said, Marianne, great support. Can you check what happened with Martin? Then. And also whether it was true people could hear us in the webcast, which is slightly weird. Very weird, yes. That's really weird. But I'm not sure how we can check it. I knew you can see when I cut it off. Yes. So Nicola can pull like when you pressed it and then when I pressed it. So at least like then it'd be able to verify, well, you ended it at this time. You know what I mean? Like it will reflect that. Okay. Yes. That's weird. What time did we end it? We'll also get the logs from AT and T as we end it. Yes. Yes. We need that too because that's another I'm just thinking what should I put in the heads up, noted it was frozen. Yes. What time that was? I don't know what time it was. I can check when Yes, you can save our chat because we kind of Yes, the chat. About what that was going on. So just mention about Martin's Internet And I've mentioned people could still do audio in the post conference apparently. You don't really know when one person says that, do you? Yes, exactly. Let me see when we had the issue with Martin. You had the audience link open, right, Simon? Yes, I'll get it open too. And I've had it frozen as well. I had the audience, I think, yes. Yes. But I refreshed it, and I I could see the webcast ending. I could see my slide pop up. I didn't have my headset on, so I couldn't hear the music, but literally, the slide was only up for about 10 seconds at most and then it ended. And then it ended? Yes. So I mean, if it ends for 1, it should end for all. And I left that music playing for at least 30 seconds. So I can't understand how 35, 40 seconds later, someone was still being able to hear the post conference. It does make sense. Well, in looking at the dashboard, it looks like 1803, he froze. Yes. And it looks like That's when I mentioned it. I was the first to Mention it and then Jim said not here, not you. Yes. So also include that though because I think that's important information to include that on the Zoom for us, For Jim and myself that are in 2 different locations, but in the U. S, it was we didn't see it freeze for us to continue the video, but I'll be in that type of thing, we already talked about. Yes. But the thing was, if participants would have seen it, they would have mentioned it to us. Yes. A waiting for them to let you know that, right? Yes, exactly. They would ping Claudia like within seconds. Yes, I don't know. It's weird. And I also don't see anything in the control about it, yes. And Timo mentioned it as well. Yes, isn't it? Because apart from that, Slick production, what a team. You all love the LexAll Soft webcast. Well, that's Jim anyway. We'll just get him up. When are you calling it, Simon? I'm waiting for the next day. It was on 11th, but Yes, you don't know the new date yet. I don't know the new date yet, but yes, that would be Yes. Greenteam, right? Yes. Really good. Yes. Nicola never pinged you back? No. All right. She's probably wrapping something up real quick and I mean, she was quite busy, I think, today. So Yes. The last thing she probably wants is to discuss a heads up at 2020. So probably if she's online with the release of the heads up, she'll probably It's later over here. Come on. It's 6:30 over here. So yes, okay. I'll just send out. The only thing I should just mention is the frozen video. And I will mention that we had Wi Fi issues earlier in the 2nd session joining the 2nd session. And then they said they could hear the post conference, but that was weird. So Yes. But you had ended it we had the audience link open. It ended on the audience I clicked it again after they had just for verification, because Nicholas didn't able to pull that, so you can say that I clicked it again just because they started to comment on that. But you guys had the audience link open and that it ended. You confirmed that before. Yes. So they need to check the AT and T logs Yes, as well. We've perhaps it's the AT and T audio line that we're still Yes, because on the dashboard, the AT and T, he didn't drop until 11.19, it looks like, from like just Yes, so he could have had the line still open. We don't know that. Yes. Okay. I bet that's what it was. But we did I will just mention nothing confidential to say. I would say there was I wouldn't say they. I would say there was one report of the audio line still open because there was Yes. It is not there will be like, well, how many? Yes, we will like 2 100 people or whatever. Yes, exactly. Okay. Let me see, though. So it is a show. I haven't sent a heads So that's Marcel and Harto, Rodrigo, right? Yes. Bart and Omar, right? Yes. And Nicholas included anyway. Yes. Okay, perfect. That's a shame. We were on a roll. We were on a roll. All right. Do the TCS thing at the end of your heads up when it's they're ones where it's all gone to crap, the world's ended And then that's probably in line, always, it's always, but the organizers were happy with the support. Yes, every time, yes. Every time, yes. All right. Brilliant. Thanks, everyone, for your help. All right. You're welcome. Well, thank you, guys. Good to see you again, Jim. Take care. You too. Yes. Everyone take care. All right. Take care, guys. Okay. Bye.