Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Amber Enterprises India Limited Q1 FY 2025 earnings conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on beliefs, opinions, and expectations the company has on the date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in a listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing the star, then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Jasbir Singh , Executive Chairman, CEO, and Whole-time Director of Amber Enterprises India Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Hello and good morning, everyone. On the call, I'm joined by Mr. Daljit Singh, Managing Director, Mr. Sudhir Goyal , our CFO, Mr. Sanjay Kumar Arora, Whole-time Director of IL JIN Electronics , and Mr. Sachin Gupta, CEO of CAC & RAC Division. We have uploaded our results presentation on the exchanges, and I hope everybody had an opportunity to go through the same. As you are all aware that over the years, we have transitioned from our core focus of room air conditioners and have structured our diversification in three business segments, namely Consumer Durable Division, Electronics, EMS Division, and Railway Sub-system and Defense Division. All these divisional engines are firing well and are marching forward, scripting new growth opportunities. It's been a good quarter, and we have delivered revenue growth of 41% at consolidated level, EBITDA grew by 45%, and PAC recorded a growth of 60%.
I will now take you through the divisional highlights. First is Consumer Durable Division. This division comprises of three verticals: room air conditioners and room air conditioner components, non-room air conditioner components such as telecom components, smart meter components, IT server components, refrigerator components, microwave washing machine, water purifier, and automobile components. Third is washing machine, fully automatic front load and top load, which is a new addition. Owing to favorable summers, the air conditioning industry witnessed an unprecedented demand during the last quarter. The industry recorded a growth of more than 35% in the first half of this calendar year. Continuing to uphold our leadership position and our strategy to grow the product and component business, we have grown both business verticals of consumer durable, that is, RAC product business and component business.
I am delighted to share that due to favorable weather conditions and good secondary sales, we recorded a growth of 50% in our RAC business, and non-RAC components vertical grew by 39%. On a blended basis, this division has grown by 44%. Owing to these endeavors, our operating EBITDA margins in the consumer durables division stood at 7.8%, which is reflective of our blend of strategy for finished goods and the components. The major drivers that led this growth were unprecedented industry growth, addition of new customers, and increasing wallet share in existing customers, and diversification of business into other industries beyond consumer durables. We further expanded our product portfolio by adding new products during the quarter and became India's first B2B player, offering ODM solutions in Tower Air Conditioners, Window Top-Throw Inverter Series, Tropical High-Efficiency Split Air Conditioners, and Cassette Air Conditioners.
Our dedicated and continuous R&D efforts gave us an edge to provide solutions that are first to market, and we shall keep working on this strategy. Propelling the diversification beyond air conditioners, our JV for washing machine, Resojet, is further strengthening our position in the consumer durable space. We are on track to deliver our guidance, where the mass production will commence from the second half of this year. We have already onboarded four customers for which trials are undergoing, and we expect to start mass production by Q3 of this year. Now coming to electronics division, led by strategic acquisition, this division during the quarter grew by 45%. The journey, which started from around 3% EBITDA in 2018, has evolved to 7.7% in quarter one of FY 2025. Going forward, we are confident to touch EBITDA in the range of 7.75%-8% during this year.
In PCBA segment, our journey, which started with capturing the trends of air conditioners from fixed speed to inverters, has now evolved to provide solutions for appliances, consumer electronics, hearable wearable , telecom, smart meters, and automobile segment. I'm also glad to inform that we have received our first purchase order for defense products in this segment. This division has further received a surge with the junction of bare PCB in its fold through acquisition of Ascent Circuits and MOU with Korea Circuit. These partnerships have opened our avenues for manufacturing of single-sided, double-sided, multi-layer RF PCB, flex HDI, and semiconductor substrates. These acquisitions and MOUs have helped to cater marquee customers in the segment of automotive component customers, telecom consumer electronics, both domestic and multinationals, defense, medical, energy solutions, and aerospace.
The bare board PCB market in India stands today at INR 37,000 crore and is expected to reach INR 80,000 crore by 2030. The sector is growing at a CAGR of 11%, but 85% of its total demand today is still being backed through the imports. The current gap of localization versus imports is huge and therefore presents us with the opportunity to reduce this gap through import substitution. The recent announcement of government imposing anti-dumping duty on PCBs up to six layers has given the much-needed boost to local PCB industry. This move has enabled us to onboard four new customers, which is a mix of multinational companies and domestic companies, comprising of segments such as consumer electronics, IT, auto, EV, and defense. In this quarter, we have also increased our stake in IL JIN and Ever from 70%- 90.2%.
Looking into our current order book, our earlier guidance for revenue growth in EMS division of 35% now stands revised to more than 45%. Now coming to our third division, Railway Sub-system and Defense. The expanding infrastructure spending towards modernization of mobility infrastructure in the country in the last few years has given the much-needed trust to the railways and metro ecosystem in the country. But the change in government strategies in Indian railways and its priorities slows down the progress for the entrants. Owing to these priority shifts by the government, this division witnessed a sluggish quarter, largely pertaining to the following reasons. The Bangalore Metro Project is moving with a delay by nine months. Mumbai Metro Project is also delayed because of the shortage of subsystems from the rolling stock companies.
The project of 200 Vande Bharat Express is also moving delayed by around 8-9 months, owing to a change in the composition of coaches from 16-24 per Vande Bharat train. Also, recent announcements made by the Railway Ministry on shifting their focus to non-AC coaches this year have led to a delay in the production of coaches, which has withheld the lifting of materials from our factory. Considering the delays of the aforesaid projects, we expect this division to be flattish this year. However, during the quarter, we have further strengthened our order book by winning more contracts, thereby taking the order book visibility to around INR 2,075 crore. We continue to maintain our earlier guidance of doubling the division's revenue in the next three years.
I am glad to announce that we have shortlisted the location for Yujin India, our recent joint venture for couplers, gears, and pantographs with the South Korean company Yujin Machinery, and have started ordering the plant and machinery. The trials of products under this joint venture are expected to begin in India by quarter four of this fiscal. Further, the construction of the new greenfield facility of Sidwal is in full swing, and we expect to start the trials of our new product categories, doors and gangways, in quarter one of next year, which is expected to convert into mass production by Q4 of next financial year.
It also gives me pleasure to inform you that after dedicated and relentless efforts of our team for 4 years, we have reached the final stage of receiving our developmental order of air conditioners for trains from the U.S. markets and European rolling stock companies. It will take about 2.5 years for completing the development process, post which we expect global doors to open for Sidwal. In a nutshell, the long-term horizon of this division stands to be robust. Additionally, our defense segment is gaining momentum. With our order book growing stronger, we are expanding our product offerings in this segment and aim to become significant contributors to this sector. Just to summarize, our strategic acquisitions across various business divisions have bolstered our market position and allowed us to offer more comprehensive solutions.
By leveraging favorable government initiatives like Make in India and Atmanirbhar Bharat, we are dedicated to reducing our dependence on imports and are well-positioned to capitalize on the emerging market opportunities. I now request Sudhir Goyal, our CFO, to take you through the consolidated financial highlights.
Hi, good morning, everyone. So now I'll take you to the consolidated financial highlights, including the divisional performance. So on the revenue front, at consolidated level, our quarter one financial year 2025 revenue stood at INR 2,401 crores compared to INR 1,702 crores, which is a growth of 41% year-on-year level. Operating EBITDA for quarter one financial year 2025 stood at INR 200 crores versus INR 138 crores in quarter one financial year 2024, a growth of 45%. Operating EBITDA is before the impact of ESOP expenses and other non-operating income and expenses. Operating EBITDA margin for quarter one financial year 2025 stood at 8.3% versus 8.1% in the quarter one financial year 2024. PAT for the quarter one financial year 2025 stood at INR 75 crores versus INR 47 crores in the quarter one financial year 2024.
Now coming to the divisional highlights, we shall now take you through all the three divisional highlights, which are as follows: Consumer Durable Division. The Consumer Durable Division has reported total revenue of INR 1,918 crores for quarter one financial year 2025 compared to INR 1,331 crores last year's same quarter. The operating EBITDA stood at INR 150 crores in quarter one financial year 2025 versus INR 106 crores in the same quarter last year. Strong summer season led to good demand, which resulted in improved revenue and EBITDA in quarter one financial year 2025. Electronic Division. The Electronic Division has reported total revenue of INR 388 crores in quarter one financial year 2025 compared to INR 267 crores in quarter one financial year 2024, which is a growth of 45% year-on-year level.
The operating EBITDA stood at INR 30 crores in quarter one financial year 2025 versus INR 11 crores in quarter one financial year 2024.
Now coming to Railway Sub-system and Defense Division. The Railway Sub-system and Defense Division has reported total revenue of INR 95 crores in quarter one financial year 2025 compared to INR 104 crores in quarter one financial year 2024. The operating EBITDA stood at INR 20 crores in quarter one financial year 2025 versus INR 21 crores in quarter one financial year 2024. Now at consolidated level, we have started realizing the subsidies from central and state governments over the CAPEX made. We expect to receive a subsidy reimbursement of INR 80 crores during the year under various central and state subsidies, including PLI of INR 36 crores. At consolidated, our CAPEX remain at the same level of INR 350 crores -INR 375 crores for this financial year.
Our net working capital days at consolidated level have improved from 35 days- 14 days, and our net debt stood at INR 965 crores.
Lastly, at current run rate level, we expect our controlled revenue to grow around 25%. Further, we expect a jump of around 300 basis points in our ROCE level, taking it to above 15% financial year 2025, and we maintain our guidance to touch 19%-21% in the next two financial years. With this, I would now open the floor for question and answer.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handset while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Dhruv Jain from Ambit Capital. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, I have one question on the EMS division. So last year, we ended consumer durables plus smartwatches at about 91% share. How should we think about the share of the other verticals improving over the next 2-3 years, and what, in your sense, would be the right margin over the next three years for this vertical?
Dhruv, good morning. So you said 91%. We didn't get that point.
The share of EMS verticals, consumer durables plus smartwatches, revenue share was about 91% in end of FY 2024, if I'm not wrong.
No, I think you're mistaken on the numbers. But anyway, I'll give you a highlight on the electronics EMS division. Basically, on this division, we have two segments now. We have PCBA and we have PCB. In our PCBA business, which started from 2018 by acquiring IL JIN and Ever , it was a small INR 300 crore worth company where we were at 3% EBITDA, and we were catering to just refrigerators and air conditioners in inverter PCB boards. So we took two years to develop our own boards, and we became the first company in India to develop our own inverter PCB solutions. And then we found that we were having headwinds from Chinese. They were dropping the prices. Then we changed our strategies.
While strengthening our inverter PCB boards for the air conditioning industry, we started diversifying into wearable verticals where the smartwatches and Bluetooth speakers came in.
Then we further added telecom equipment, telecom PCBAs. Then we added smart meters. We also added auto. And recently, we have added the defense portfolio. So in all, the trajectory was to take this 3% EBITDA from a bottom line towards more than 6%, 7%. And we achieved about 5.6% last quarter while diversifying these applications. Then we acquired Ascent Circuits, which is into bare PCB boards, which is a more marginable business, plus a very high import substitution opportunity. And on a blended basis, that division is also growing very well. It's grown by more than 30% this year over last year. And it has further strengthened because of the anti-dumping duty imposed by the government. On a blended basis, now the EBITDA has come to 7.7%. So in a nutshell, if you see, we have a strong R&D layer built up.
Today, we are catering to almost about 22%-23% of inverter PCB boards for air conditioners. The prime reason for which we acquired this company. So that objective has been achieved. And now we are further graduating into becoming an EMS player, electronic EMS player, like our peers, a very strong solution provider. So nobody has the solutions like we have. We have R&D layer on one side. We are giving full solution on the PCB in different applications. Plus, we have a backward integration with the PCB support, which is a high-margin business. So all three put together brings this division to a very robust growth opportunity moving forward.
Sir, how should we think about the contribution of non-consumer durables vertical evolving as a revenue share evolving over the next, say, by FY 2026 or FY 2027?
See, if you remember, we used to speak about when we were just entering into electronics that we want our air conditioner versus other businesses, there should be a decent split of 50/50 moving forward. So we are moving towards that. And the vertical created by us, which is railways and defense and electronics, are contributing to that only. Today, all these divisions which have been where we have invested further, they are non-seasonal in nature. They are having good EBITDA margins. And overall basis, if you'll see, we will be a very different diversified B2B player in moving forward if we talk about three years or four years from now, which will be exporting our components both in different divisions and also on the domestic side, there are huge growth opportunities.
Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ravi Swaminathan from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Hello sir. Congrats on this set of numbers. Hello.
Good morning, [audio distortion] Please go ahead.
Good morning, sir. Sir, my first question is with respect to the room air conditioner market. If you can give a sense on what is likely to be the growth for the room AC business, given the backdrop of the strong growth that was there in the summer for financial year 2025, what kind of growth would have been there? What is the kind of volumes of room ACs that the industry would have seen this year?
Well, you see, as per our resources, the H1, the full from the quarter season is going from January onwards. We are seeing almost about 36% growth, 35%-36% in the whole full number. So if we are talking of almost about one crore air conditioners last year, I think if this run rate continues in quarter four also, industry should be closing somewhere about INR 1.3 crores-INR 1.4 crores. And looking into that, I believe right now, because of the good summers, inventory levels are at the minimum at this point of time. And everybody is anticipating good summers again. So everybody has started now preparing ourselves for the next season. And we believe that if you see, actually, Ravi, if you see the long-term thing, this is we have seen six bad seasons in the last 24 years. We have seen many good seasons in this.
Overall, because of the per capita income increase, because of the lifestyle shift, because of power adequacy, this demand for air conditioners is moving. What new trend we have seen is that it has started penetrating to tier three, tier four cities, and even to the rural areas. I was surprised to hear that even villages have started putting up the first air conditioners that started penetrating into some villages. That means that it opens up a big opportunity moving forward for this sector.
Understood, sir. And sir, for us to grow probably much higher than the industry growth rate, say, in terms of export opportunities or ability to manufacture critical components like compressors or even trying to gain further market share, if you can talk about them more in the room AC space, that would be great.
So we are expanding both product profile in the finished goods sector as well as in the component space. In the finished goods sector, as explained during my speech, we have expanded the product Tower Air Conditioners. We have become the first B2B company Tower Air Conditioners, Cassette Air Conditioners, and Window Top-Throw Inverter Series, and also the Tropical High-Efficiency Split Air Conditioners. That is one part. There are endeavors moving forward for the exports also. And we expect we should be able to crack our first orders for the export markets very soon. And this is going on the product business. On the component side, we are already very deeply penetrated from the Inverter PCB Boards from a motors point of view. We can offer 70% of the bill of material in the air conditioners.
Our wish list is that everybody should buy all the 70% from us so that we should be 70% of the market. But today, we have about 26%, 27% market share, and we are maintaining that. But yeah, I mean, but yes, we are also looking to expand into other verticals, which we will announce as soon as there will be some advancement. We don't want to right now tell because it's a little sensitive. We have signed some NDAs on that front for expanding our further footprint in the bill of material.
Okay. Is compressor would be the one?
Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Ravi. Could you please fall back in the question queue for further questions?
Sure.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good morning, sir, and congratulations on a good set of numbers. So my first question is related to the electronics segment. If you can talk about in terms of what has been the contribution by Ascent in both the revenues and the EBITDA line number. And there has also been the shift of the durable and wearable JV to JV. So what was that lower revenue or what revenue kind of got shifted out to the JV? So we just get a like-to-like number.
[audio distortion] G ood morning. Our revenue in Ascent is around INR 73 crore for the quarter one ended 30th June 2024. Operating EBITDA is INR 15 crore.
Understood. And sir, any revenues that moved to the JV versus last year, first quarter?
No. So JVs are not subsidiaries. So JV only PAT get consilidated in the overall PAT.
Okay. So even 1Q of last year didn't have any JV revenues.
Yes.
Okay. So the reason why I'm asking is that the kind of growth that we've seen in the AC segment, which has been quite robust, if I were to remove the Ascent bit, the growth for IL JIN and Ever per se is at about 18-odd%. So any reason why the growth has been slightly lower and not kept in pace with the AC segment and given the fact that you've added a lot of customers in various segments out there?
Bhoomika, the reason why this has been about 18-19% growth in the PCBA segment is because the average selling price of the wearable variable has drastically been reduced. Though the volumes continue to grow, but ASP of smartwatches and Bluetooth speaker has come down. It's almost down by 40%. That's the reason why the top-line growth is not looking at. But it is reflective in the bottom-line strategy.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it.
Overall, we are looking at it because we are further expanding our applications. So that's the reason why we have guided that on a blended basis, we are really guided that we will be able to grow this division by 35%, but now our guidance stands at 45% growth.
Okay, sir. This 45% is inclusive of Ascent, right?
It is inclusive of Ascent, but if you remove the Ascent also, then there also will be PCBA also will be growing at good 35% growth.
We expect the next couple of quarters to pick up the list first.
That's right. That's right.
Okay. Sir, on the Ascent business, you spoke about the import duties and our MOU with Korea Circuit for expanding our product portfolio. If you can talk about how are we seeing this evolving, the market is very large. There's a huge import substitution which can come into play. How quickly can we kind of scale up these volumes, shift towards the higher levels of product portfolio if you can just give some color on that aspect?
So firstly, I mean, we have already been allotted 12 acres additional land in the SIPCOT area. That is the first beginning which we have done. And MOU with Korea Circuit has begun. The activities have begun. They have started visiting us. Our teams have started visiting them. And we are also waiting for the government to announce some incentive schemes because earlier, the incentive scheme was SPECS. And also, this was a central government subsidy of about 25%. And states were giving about 20% subsidy. So now it is getting revised. So we have already got approval for about INR 256 crore of plant and machinery in the SPECS scheme one, which is underway. That extension is starting happening. But we are expecting the new SPECS scheme or PLI scheme or some new incentives which are getting changed for the component sector of electronics.
Once the announcement will be done, we will be immediately going for the extension with the Korea Circuit and Ascent put together in the HDI board. So we expect that at least 50%-55% will be reimbursed by central and state governments.
By when do you think these revenues from these HLI boards will start coming in?
Could you please fall back in the question queue for further questions?
Sure. I'll do that. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your questions to two per participant. The next question is from the line of Sonali from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations on a good set of numbers. My first question is regarding the RAC industry. We definitely saw a great summer. You did mention that channel inventories are low right now. Does that mean that we could look at restocking of channel inventories going ahead in Q2, Q3? And also, any pricing action that we have done in the first half of the year or is expected going forward?
Yeah. Good morning, Sonali. We expect that the industry, because whenever this kind of big summer comes in, generally the trend is that Q2 is a normal one because Q2 nothing great happens. But Q3 onwards, the traction of the inventory build-up starts happening. So we expect better Q3. And then.
[audio distortion]
Q3 is also moving much better. In July, as of now, July is moving much better than last year.
Understood. And about the update on the industry transition to the in-house, any update on that front and also pricing actions in AC?
So we don't see any pricing action as of now because there's not a very large moment on the commodity side. But on the industry expansion side, on the in-source versus out-source, I think the dust has already been settled. There's every company who wanted to put up their factories, their factories have started, except only one company is pending whose plant will be ready by October or November. So after that, I think we don't hear any further plans from anybody to show. So there should be a spillover also moving forward into the out-sourcing part as the capacities of those plants get built up.
Sure. So my second question is, did you mention that Sidwal's revenue could be flattish this year? I missed that, which is why I'm reconfirming.
Yes. We were expecting about 15%-20% growth this year. As earlier guided, we have done a lot of joint ventures, and we have switched deals for expanding our portfolio into doors, gangways. We did a TOT, and for pantographs, gear, and coupler, we have done joint ventures with the Yujin. So generally, these kind of safety products and the functional products, they take a long time for the approval. So once the factories are up and running by quarter four this year, next year, as I guided earlier, this year will be the execution year, and next year will be the year of approvals from railways and metros. So we expect that Q4 of next financial year will be the starting point for all the new product categories.
Yes, that's the reason why we have changed our guidance because right now, for the time being, government has shifted its focus for production of more non-AC coaches. And there's a slowdown from Indian Railways to pick up. But that's very momentary. I think it is momentary for this year. So that's the reason why earlier guided that this division will grow by 15%-20%. We want to guide that it will be flattish this year. But nothing changes on the long-term horizon from next year of quarter four onwards.
Sure. Sure. That's it from my side. All the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sampath Nayak from Veritas Capital. Please go ahead. Mr. Sampath, your line has been unmuted. Please go ahead with your question.
Yeah. Hi. Can you hear me?
Yes, Sampath .
Yeah. So hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations on good set of numbers. So my question is regarding railway mobility, especially HVAC segment, right? So what is the opportunity size and value share we have across different segments such as AC, railway, defense, and bus? That is my first question.
So in the HVAC segment, there are two segments to look at it. One is metro rails, and second is Indian Railways. In metro rail, we are enjoying 46% share of business in the metro for the HVAC segment. In Indian Railways, we are at about 40% share of business in the Indian Railways. Overall, earlier, if you see, there are close to about 550-600 coaches getting produced for metros on an annual basis. In the railway segment, the number keeps on fluctuating. So sometimes the production is of non-AC coaches more, sometimes AC coaches are more. So it's very difficult to predict the government budgetary provision because that's very fluctuating numbers keep on coming in. Generally, it used to be close to about 3,000-4,000 coaches annually, which is being produced, which are generally the air-conditioned coaches.
Out of the almost 7,500-8,000 coaches being produced by three factories of Indian Railways.
Okay.
But the new trains which are being launched, like Vande Bharat Sleeper, Vande Bharat Metro, and Vande Bharat Chair, they are all air-conditioned coaches. So as the momentum of new coaches will come up, the more trend will be from FY 2026 onwards towards the air-conditioned coaches.
Right. Right. And sir, what would be the value share of HVAC in one particular coach?
So generally, you see, there are different, so different passenger cars have different kind of composition on the bill of material. Like LHB coach is about INR 3.5 crore, where HVAC contribution will be somewhere about INR 16 lakh -INR 17 lakh. But if you talk about the metro, where it is about Vande Bharat, it is about INR 6 crore. In that, HVAC contribution will be somewhere about INR 22 lakh -INR 24 lakh. But metro is totally different. The coach composition can shift from bill of material from INR 9 crore-INR 10 crore, and in some cases, INR 7.5 crore. So it keeps on varying. But what we have done, Sampath, is that we have moved beyond HVAC also. Earlier, our contribution was only 3%-4% of the bill of material of a particular passenger car.
But now, with the deals stitched with Yujin and the TOT done with the ultimate group for doors and gangway, we can go to INR 1.2 crore per car. So that's the offering. So we have expanded our total addressable market. Plus, as explained, we are not only in future, in about 2.5-3 years from now, we are expanding our global doors also. So there's a whole new world opening for Sidwal as far as HVACs are concerned, and then we further grow this other component there. And yes, on the defense, as you asked, on the defense, there is no particular research which says how much is the market size because it's varying. It's totally depending on the defense buying projects. But yes, we are into multiple defense products where we have launched our instant cooling solutions. That is one expansion which we have done.
In fact, we have done deemed exports also for that. Some shipments were sent by Government of India in which the instant cooling solutions were provided by us. We are also expanding our defense product doors for exports. Currently, as we are speaking, there are teams sitting in our Sidwal factories which are gearing up. It will take about 24 months. We are readying up ourselves for the exports of these products to outside India also.
Great. Great, sir. And sir, what is the entry barrier for railway and defense?
Sorry. One last question.
In the question queue for.
So on entry barrier, Sampath, it's a big gestation period. Generally, if someone wants to enter into railway HVAC or the safety products or functional products, you will be awarded a developmental contract where, within the two years, once you finish your development, the railway ministry will come and inspect, and then they will give you two coaches or three coaches. They will monitor it for complete one year. After the successful execution, you will be awarded part two category supplier. Part two means even if you come L1, you will receive only 15% or 10% of the business. And then 300 coaches or three years, whichever is earlier, that's how you become a part one. So it's a journey of 5-6 years.
Right. Right. Thank you, sir. I'll fall back in the queue.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rahul Gajare from Haitong Securities. Please go ahead.
Good morning, sir. Congratulations on good performance during the quarter.
Morning.
I've got two. Yeah. I've got two questions. Given that you've raised your guidance in the EMS from 35%- 40%, which will take us closer to INR 1,800 crore, many EMS companies are now talking about 50%, 60% kind of growth. Do you see Amber clocking that kind of growth over the next, say, three to five years, given you have new areas which will essentially contribute to the growth? That's the first question.
Well, as I explained, we are expanding our portfolio as other peers. So from one side, we are expanding our portfolio to increase our EBITDA margins. On the other side, we are expanding our offering, expanding the total addressable market. So both in PCB as well as in PCBA. In PCB, we see huge potential because of import substitution. At the current level, as I explained, the industry is at INR 37,000 crore, and only 15% is getting manufactured in India. So there tends to be a big boost for the import substitution. But we don't want to give any number here that we can grow by continue to grow over four or five years for 50%, 60%. But if Government of India keeps on coming up with the decent schemes, I think automatically companies like us will continue to grow in 45%-50% range.
Right. So my second question is on your stakes that you have got in two areas. One is through Sidwal, you are planning to invest INR 120 crore in the SPV. Now, I want to understand how much of this money will go into the domestic factory and how much of this will get invested into the overseas entity in terms of the stake. And connected with that, I just wanted to understand when you are looking at washing machine also, what does Resojet really bring to the table? Because I think that also is a fairly recently incorporated company.
So on the second question, Resojet, basically, they had already got the factory ready and complete tools and machinery was getting in place when we entered. And they've already done a strategic tie-up with TCL, which is supporting the whole model lineup. And that's where we come in. We bring on the table, basically, we've shot in the whole line. I mean, earlier, it would have taken us 1.5-2 years, but we've just entered into the newly freshly done-up plant. And from our side, what we've brought on the table is all the customer base of the company and, of course, the manufacturing capabilities of the consumer durables. So earlier, the plan was just to assemble, but now we have started the complete manufacturing. The trials are underway.
There are four customers which have been onboarded, and we are talking to eight more customers to be onboarded. I believe we will keep you updating on the numbers of new customers getting added in that division. On the other Sidwal front of INR 120 crore, out of that, INR 90 crore, we have invested in the Italy plant along with Titagarh and Government of Italy's fund in Italy. So the reason why we invested in that was because, you see, if you want to see where the rolling stock, large businesses are going to come from, that is coming from India for next 10 years and U.S. markets and European markets. So they are just booming in the rolling stock businesses. And we were trying to penetrate into the global markets, but we were not getting approval because we lack in experience of even supplying single train outside India.
In one of the tenders, which was a very big tender, we did not get, despite coming L1, because of the lack of experience of single train. So to reduce that 7-8 years of approval cycle, we entered into the JV with Titagarh and took a right of first refusal for the Sidwal products. As we entered, we started meeting the Italian government railway systems for our HVACs for the first wave. They have already given the orders for doors, and gangways are under discussion. So we will be cutting short our approach to the global markets through this division. So that was our rationale to enter into that.
Sir, I have more questions, but I'll come back in the queue. Thank you very much, and I'll be the next.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abhishek Ghosh from DSP. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good morning, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, two questions first. On the Sidwal part of it, this INR 2,075 crore of order backlog, what is the execution time for the same?
Abhishek, you are not audible. Hello?
Am I audible now, sir? Hello? Hello?
Something happened to the line.
Am I audible now, sir? Hello?
Hello?
Hello, sir. Can you hear me?
Hello?
Hello. I think.
Hello?
Hello. Sir, I will just disconnect and reconnect you back, okay?
Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen, the management line has been reconnected back. Thank you for patiently holding. Yes, sir, please go on.
Yeah. Am I audible now, sir? Hello?
Yes, please.
Yeah. Sir, just on the Sidwal part of it, the order backlog of INR 2,075 crores, what is the execution time for that, sir?
These are different projects with different timelines. Largely, the Vande Bharat timelines are that first two trains have to go this year and then about six, seven trains next year. But the large traction of deliveries are coming into FY 2027. You can say that this order book would be somewhere about divided in 2.5-3 years.
Okay. Got it. And sir, the other thing is on the electronics part of the business, now with Ascent having come into your fold, which is a good 18%-20% kind of a margin business for y'all, how should one look at the overall margin profile? I know you don't want to come into a growth because there are multiple levers to it, but can the overall margin of the electronics division move to something like a low double-digit, given that Ascent is already at a 20% revenue contribution with about a 20% margin profile? Any thoughts on that, sir? Thanks.
So Abhishek, when we acquired IL JIN, we used to guide that, yes, in five years, we will be increasing our margin, and that's what we have done. I would say that, yes, on a long-term perspective, if we talk about 3-4 years from today, we will definitely be targeting to do the early teens kind of numbers on this front. And we are taking adequate steps for capturing the applications which are higher margin. So there has to be a blend on value versus volume. So some of the business are volume-driven, and some of the businesses are value-driven. So we are gradually getting into these high entry barrier zones. And I believe that somewhere about in the long run, if we talk about four years from now, 4-5 years from now, somewhere about 12%-13% should be possible.
Sir, just lastly, on the AC part of.
I want to interrupt, sir, Abhishek sir. Could you please fall back in the?
Sure. Sure. Thanks.
Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Indrajit Agarwal from CLSA. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good morning, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. I have a couple of questions.
First, on electronics business, the 45% growth target implies about INR 1,800 crore revenue for next year. Of that, assuming Ascent is roughly about INR 300 crore-INR 330 crore, can you give us a split of the end consumer of the rest of the business? That is, how much will be here, available, and what are the other businesses that you have brought in?
We don't have it handy right now, but yes, we can separately tell you. But it keeps on fluctuating. Even if we give you numbers, that business will continue to fluctuate because it's quarter four is very good. Air conditioners will take the major jump, as we have seen in quarter one. So if we keep on varying, like we have entered into electronics for four-wheeler, we have light commercial vehicles, we have heavy commercial vehicles we have entered into, and we are also entering into we have entered into the auto part also for the EV chargers and defense also. So it's very difficult to predict the complete bifurcation on the revenue mix of the applications.
But fallback, would AC be a substantial part of it? RAC be a substantial?
No, no, no. AC is a very less part of it. If I talk about today also, AC will be less than 20%.
Okay. Thank you. That is helpful. My second question is on Sidwal. Of the order book of 2017, is it all HVAC as of now, or any of the newer segments are contributing to the order book?
No, no, no. So this is almost about INR 780 crore is the new product category, and about INR 78 crore- INR 80 crore is defense order book, and remaining is HVAC.
Sure. Thank you. And on your other?
HVAC and pantry system.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Adesh Mehta from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Congratulations on fantastic numbers. I just have one question. For RAC industry, and how are we positioned? What kind of inventory could you see building up for the industry as a whole and your outlook on growth?
Could you repeat your question? There was some blip in the line. Can you please repeat your question?
In RAC business, are we seeing the next rating?
Currently, and consequently, are you seeing the inventory building up? Which year will this happen?
So government has already announced that the new energy table will be implemented from 1st January 2026. So I think this year nothing changes, but yes, for next year, quarter three onwards, there will be shifting, which will happen.
Got it, sir. Thank you, sir. Wish you all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aditya Bhartia from Investec. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning, sir.
Good morning, [audio distortion].
I wanted to understand how exactly is it panning out on the insourcing side from customers? Is it fair to assume that for some of them, given that facilities have become operational this year, they will be in a ramp-up phase, and next year they'll possibly be doing a lot more insourcing than what they have done this year?
It's very, I don't think so because make versus buy is a right of a customer, and they keep on evaluating whether they should make or they should buy from outside. Overall, the capacity is being put up by the brands. I believe it will be if this kind of continues, the growth kind of continues, it will be earlier than that they will be fulfilling those capacities, and the spillover may happen. But Aditya, if you see our strategy of serving them, even if they want to insource, nothing has changed for us. The industry did, I mean, I would say some of our investors, friends, they did get confused when every announcement came that factories are being put up by the customers. But we moved in tandem with them.
We started supplying our components, and we've seen that the margins have improved, and the top line is also moving in tandem with the industry. So I think if this trend, this will keep on shifting in future also. You should be ready. Some year there will be spillover. Some year there will be undercapacity, overcapacity, so they will be making in-house. But companies like us, we will keep on shifting in both the strategies.
Understood, sir. My second question is a related question on margins. If we look at this particular quarter wherein we had a very strong growth, even in standalone entity , which houses ACs and largely durables, over there, despite that strong revenue growth, in terms of margins, we actually didn't see any expansion. There would have been operating leverage benefits which would have played out. A higher proportion of components would have been the case in this quarter. Still, there is no bigger margin expansion, and at the gross margin side, there is a bit of an erosion. How should we think about profitability going forward?
See, we were hovering around 6%, 6.5%. Now we have already touched almost close to about 8.3%. We should see the EBITDA margins getting maintained at this level moving forward.
Okay. We didn't really get any major benefit of operating leverage.
Could you please fall back into?
Operating leverage, if you divide into the consumer durable number, you will see that margins have improved over the last quarters. That's primarily because of the operating leverage as well as the shift in the strategies of the components.
Sure, sir. Understood. Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Deepak Krishnan from Kotak Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Am I audible?
Yes, please. Go ahead.
Yeah. Sir, just maybe one question. Given that the PLI scheme is sort of reopened again, how are we looking at that? Are we looking at any specific categories or in general expansion into existing basis? How are we specifically targeting the PLI scheme, or will we stay completely away from that?
No, we are not looking to invest further in PLI because PLI has been announced now. You will be filing the application. You will be doing sale, and then there are only two years left for getting the incremental sales and the benefits. So it's not worth that for taking the onus on achieving the incremental sales. So we will not be participating. We are staying away from the PLI.
Sure, sir. Maybe just in terms of you said overall industry growth rate of 35%, how much was the RAC growth rate for us, RAC, RAC components for the summer season? Because some of our peers have seen growth in the range of 60+. We just wanted to sort of reconcile how has market share moved specifically within the outsourcing players this particular quarter or this particular summer as such, both Q4 and Q1 together?
Sure. Q1, industry grew by about 35%. That's the number from our resources. There's no research report published, but we feel that the industry numbers are somewhere about 35%-36% growth rate. And we have grown by almost 50% in this quarter. So that's a good, robust growth. I think that's reflective that things are spilling back. But this is not, I think what I will guide everybody and suggest is that quarterly fluctuations will continue from insourcing, outsourcing components, non-AC components, or RAC components. But largely on the long-term horizon point of view, this is a good industry which has a long-term horizon, and that's where we are banking on our efforts on.
Sure, sir. Those were my questions and best of luck for future.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nirransh Jain from BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Good morning. Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, my first question is on the debt levels. So what we have seen is debt has increased over the last 2-3 years primarily because most of the PLI-related CAPEX have been front-ended. So now going ahead, considering that our CAPEX guidance has also come down from the levels that were there in the last 2-3 years, what is our debt repayment plan, and how are we looking at it going ahead?
This is Sudhir. Our debt repayment plan: normally long-term debt, whatever we have taken, it is for 7-8 years, and our average maturity is around coming to four years. The larger debt was taken in the last year, in the last-to-last year, on our term side, and that will be paid over the next 7-8 years' time.
Got it, sir.
So it's a balance is working capital, which is a perpetual kind of a limit which keeps on changing based on the requirement of the working capital.
Sure, sir. Understood that. So the second question is on the durable division. So in FY 2024, we saw that around 40% was the RAC contribution to the overall consolidated numbers. Now, considering that the summer had been really strong, how are we seeing this mix getting evolved? And in case the RAC mix remains constant, can we expect a continued improvement in the margins for the durable division with a higher mix of the RAC?
So we actually look at the RAC and RAC components. That is one vertical. Then we have non-RAC components. So that, on the average, will keep on fluctuating.
Sure, sir. Understood. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Keyur Pandya from ICICI Prudential Life Insurance. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. I have two questions. First, on the consumer durable division. So based on the performance of Q1, so any specific output that you would like to give for the division in the context of strong AC demand? And just the extension to the question is that we saw strong demand in Q1 since there was overflowing of demand from their in-house facilities. Now, should we see that in Q2, Q3 as well? Because I believe that in those periods, facilities are underutilized. And so brands, given a choice, would like to make in their own facilities. That is the first question.
No, actually, once you sign up for the model lineup, then it is very difficult to switch every quarter like this. So if the growth is going on for those models, it will continue to be in the same range if the markets are growing at 35%-40%. I think that's the growth we should look at in case the quarter four is a good summer. But in case quarter four is not a good summer, of course, the average will come down, but the model lineup will remain intact. Yes, if brands put up extra capacity, maybe by next year, then they decide that supposing they are taking model A from us and they want to manufacture the model A inside, then we will start supplying components to them for that model A. That's the strategy.
So, sir, as a summation of all this, any growth outlook for consumer durable division for 2025? And the second question is total CAPEX for FY 2025 and any broad breakup that you can give. Thank you and all the best.
Overall, I think Sudhir has already mentioned that we are looking towards controlled revenue growth of almost about 25% this year, and we expect that we should be able to do it.
[audio distortion]
Thank you.
Sir, can you please ask your question again? I mean, there were some questions pending.
Yes, sir. We'll move on to the next question. It's from the line of Natasha Jain from Nirmal Bang. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, my question is, first, on the revenue mix, now the commentary around Sidwal EMS segment, it has been quite bullish, and the revenue, I mean, the margin contribution is also very high from those segments. Just want to understand how the revenue mix will move from current 75% in consumer durables, say, by FY 2027, if you can help me with that.
Well, we feel that, I mean, that's our wish list, that banking on consumer durables will a little bit come down because that's the way we are bringing up other divisions. So we expect that there should be at least a 60/40 kind of a split by FY 2027. Other divisions are going to grow, and they're doing good. And this is on the top line contribution, but bottom line can be a 50/50 kind of a split also.
All right. So, 60, you mean consumer durables and 40 remaining from EMS and Sidwal?
That's right. Yes.
All right. So my next question is on the RAC assembly order books. Can you throw some light as to what kind of clients we've onboarded there recently, or what is the kind of contribution from our top five clients there, especially this quarter if we were able to onboard some newer clients?
Yes. I mean, we've onboarded some new clients this time. We would not like to name them because of the sensitivity and the NDA signed with them. But largely, these are MNC clients. And then we also were doing some gas charging earlier, which we have successfully shifted to ODM solutions. So that's the addition we have done.
Understood. Lastly, sir, in terms of margins, if I see now, if I just take your EBIT level numbers as per your filings, again, there's a flattish kind of EBIT margin growth in consumer durables. While I understand that the reason is a non-operating expense income you've removed, but can you just throw some light, what are these expenses? Because these keep coming every quarter, and if we remove them only, is then we see a margin expansion. Just throw some light as to what these line items are. Thank you.
So actually, non-operating expenses are largely ESOP expenses which we normally add that to calculate the operating EBITDA. Apart from that, non-operating expenses like loss on sale of some fixed assets and something like that. Larger portion is a ESOP one.
All right. Thank you, sir.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraint, that was the last question for today's conference call. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Jasbir Singh for the closing comments.
Thank you, everyone, for joining on the call. I hope we have been able to address all your queries. For any further information, kindly get in touch with Rohit or SGA, our investor relations advisors. Have a good day and good weekend. Thank you.
On behalf of Amber Enterprises, we conclude this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.