Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Anand Rathi Wealth Limited earnings conference call for Q4 and FY25. As a reminder, all participants' lines will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Jugal Mantri, Group CFO from Anand Rathi Wealth Limited. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Jugal.
Thanks, Azeez. Good afternoon, and thank you, everyone, for joining the earning conference call for the quarter and year-end date 31st March 2025. With me, we have on this call our Product and Research Head, Mr. Chethan Shenoy, CFO, Mr. Rajesh Bhutra, Investor Relationship Head, Mr. Vishal Sanghvi, and our Deputy CEO. Yeah, before I forget, let me congratulate our Feroze Bhai for his elevation to Joint CEO from Deputy CEO in recognition of his outstanding leadership and transformative contribution. And we have Feroze Bhai with us. Now I request Feroze Bhai to give business highlights for the quarter and year-end went by. After him, I'll give highlights of financial performance. Over to you, Feroze Bhai.
Thank you so much, Jugal Sir, for your wishes. It is the guidance of seniors like you in the company, which has helped me also contribute in one small way. Thank you so much for your wishes and all the guidance you've provided over the last 30 years to me as an entrepreneur. Now, getting to the call. During FY 2024-2025, our consolidated revenue grew by 30% year-on-year to INR 981 crore. Profit after tax also grew by 33% year-on-year and ended at INR 301 crore. We started the year saying we'd do INR 285; we did INR 295. We revised it to INR 295, and finally, with God's grace, ended at INR 301 crore. The total AUM grew by about 30% year-on-year to INR 77,103 crore as of 31st March 2025. Share of equity mutual funds in AUM rose to 53% as of March 2025, compared to 51% in March 2024.
We have emphasized in several public interactions, as you would have noticed, that we are expecting a PAT growth between 20%-25% for several years to come, as you would have heard our CEO, Rakesh Rawal, also mention. That is the consistency we pray that we are able to deliver to our shareholder who deserves to see consistency in a business like ours. With God's grace, we have been able to do that for 14 quarters in sequence. We have done always in this range and above. There was a small study conducted, which we were very curious because consistency is something which we aspire to deliver to our shareholder. We did a small study to find out the top 1,000 companies, as per market cap, how many have been able to deliver greater than 20% every quarter for a year-on-year growth of the same quarter last year.
The number, to our surprise, was six companies have been able to deliver for the same 14 quarters we have been listed. Only six companies could have delivered 20% growth quarter by quarter every single quarter. We are, fortunately, one of them, with your support as a shareholder, and God's grace. It is generally believed—the second point which I want everyone's attention, if I can humbly request for it—it is generally believed that wealth management businesses, which are linked with capital markets, have earnings volatility in line with market volatility.
However, during the short period of 14 quarters, during the worst quarter of Nifty performance and the best quarter of Nifty performance, in these 14 quarters—a very small period of 14 quarters in the life of a company—if you look at the best quarters, two best quarters of Nifty, and two worst quarters of Nifty, the growth of PAT was 30%, 33% on all the four instances, approximately. The second thing which we aspire for our shareholder is to give them market-agnostic results in a financial services business. These are our aspirations, not our commitments. We are very happy that in a short span of 14 quarters, we were able to deliver a result which was agnostic to market sentiment. Like in June, the 22nd quarter was one of the worst market sentiments.
Unfortunately, the last quarter, which went by, which we are discussing just now, was also not the best in terms of market sentiment, given the kind of broader market falls we saw from January till March. The next point which I want everyone's attention on is that the best quarter with respect to net mobilization, despite a challenging environment, we recorded INR 3,472 crore of net flow, which took us to 76% year-on-year growth on the net flow, which is INR 12,617 crore. In our fractured business of private wealth, for the full financial year, we added 1,821 new client families on a net basis, bringing our total number of client families to 11,732 clients. Client attrition rate in terms of AUM loss for FY 2025 is 0.52%. It's for anyone to judge whether it's a larger number or a smaller one.
Regret RM attrition for the second consecutive year remained below 1%, and only two RMs left off the previous year FY2025 in the regret RM category. Digital wealth business, which is a B2B2C business, registered an AUM growth of 17%, which brought it to INR 1,812 crore, and the number of clients increased by 25% to 6,087. The OFA business, which is an abbreviation to Omni Financial Advisor business, which is a tax platform, has 6,447 subscribers with a platform asset of INR 143,000 crore at the end of FY2025. Now, I would like to hand it back over to Jugal Sir to take us through the financial performance. Thank you, sir. Jugal Sir, back to you.
Yeah, thanks very much, Feroze Bhai. As everyone is aware, during the last financial year, we completed a buyback of INR 165 crore, excluding transaction costs and taxes, and issued bonus shares in 1:1 ratio. In line with our commitment to shareholders' value, the board has declared a final dividend of INR 7 per share. In effect, the dividend, even post-bonus, will be the same INR 14 per share as compared to INR 14 in the financial year for the financial year 2024, subject to approval from the AGM for the final dividend. Let me take you all through financial year 2025 consolidated financial performance. During financial year 2024-2025, our consolidated total revenue grew by 30% year-on-year to INR 981 crore, marginally up to revised guidance of INR 980 crore, and profit after tax increased by 33% year-on-year to INR 301 crore, surpassing our revised guidance of INR 295 crore.
Mutual fund distribution revenue registered very strong growth of 52% year-on-year to INR 406 crores in FY25. Profit after tax margin was 30.7% for FY25, improved from 30% for financial year 2024. Return on equity for financial year 2025 is 44.6%. Now, I will take you all through Q4 of FY25 financial results. Our consolidated total revenue for the Q4 FY25 stood at INR 241 crores, compared to INR 197 crores in Q4 FY24, registering a 22% year-on-year growth. Trail revenue was INR 103 crores, registered strong year-on-year growth of 28% from INR 80 crores during last year's same quarter. Our profit after tax stood at INR 74 crores, registering a 30% year-on-year growth compared to INR 57 crores in Q3 FY24. Profit after tax margin for Q4 FY25 was at 30.5%, which has improved from 28.8% for Q4 FY24. For FY25-26, we have given the revenue guidance of INR 1,175 crores and PAT guidance of INR 375 crores. Now, let me transfer the call to Ms. Tejal and open the floor for question and answer. Over to you, Ms. Tejal.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question comes from the line of Bhavin Pande from Athena Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, good afternoon, and thanks for the opportunity. Feroze, congratulations on a well-designed presentation. First question would be around how are we placing such a product given the market scenario? Also, how is our strategy around mutual fund distribution being tweaked? Because the scenario so far looks bleak from a market perspective, at least in the near term. Second question was around incorporation of the U.K. subsidiary that happened in February 2025. Is it a stepping stone towards expansion of the offshore business? Third would be a brief idea on RM team expansion. Also, we could see that metrics in terms of AUM per RM and clients per RM are looking productively high. How do we look at it on a sustainable basis? Thank you.
Thank you, Bhavin Sir, and thank you for your wishes. Very kind of you. Now, if you look at structured product, structured product, fortunately, in times like these, structured products become easier for a client to accept because of recency bias. When markets do very well, clients just want to buy mutual funds. That is how a human emotion is designed with recency bias. Structured product, and all of the people on the call, and Bhavin Sir, you will also be happy to note that all the 147 products which matured last year, all of them delivered the maximum coupon because they look at a modest Nifty requirement to deliver a capped return of 13%. Structured product relevance becomes easier for us to communicate to a client and keep them to 65, 35, and 20 allocation.
The point is different market situations help both the products, Plan A and Plan B, which we count as mutual funds being the Plan A and structured being the Plan B, become easier to position to a client. Point one. Point two, we think that these kind of adverse times are best times when people should buy. Of course, there is uncertainty, and that is the nature of the beast, which is market. We did a small study again for the last 24 years. If God were to tell us which was the lowest level of Nifty, if one were to buy on that day for that specific financial year, what would be the return? One year from then, just out of curiosity check, it was 44% average, worst was 11%, and highest was 92%. And the last financial year's lowest level was 21,885 on the election day, accounting day.
We are very close to the lower levels of the last financial year. Buying at these times may not disappoint you, even with two- or three-year time frames, is our belief. That is point two. We are trying—that is why you see our net flows in equity last year have grown by about 65%, which I will come to. You would see in a bad year, we try and make sure that equity is bought, not just on paper, but in actual bank account debits, which is a tougher thing to do, but that is the right thing to do. That helps us convince the person that you should not take decisions on emotions or past performance, but on future potential. Third, we believe, we strongly believe that the Indian market is far more investor-friendly than trader-friendly.
I'm trying to bring the participants' attention to a very, very important circular, which I thank the Lord for, which is called the Next Short Circular, which was given on 22nd March 2020, which was one day before the lockdown, which restricts the amount of short a person can do to INR 500 crore of notional, which is a very small amount in derivative segment. That is why you see no fine morning does a person wake up and sell. That is why during the Trump tariff wars, India has sustained lesser injury because of the Next Short Circular. We believe that it's a more investor-friendly market, especially handling intergenerational wealth doesn't bother us at all. That is why you will see that our business has done okay. I don't want to say good, given this last quarter's bad sentiment. Bhavin Sir, I missed your third question.
I think Feroze Bhai we were inquiring about the U.K. entity. Let me just brief that we have already incorporated the entity in the U.K. Now, in the process of applying for the license to commence the wealth management business, but actually seeking and having license is going to take typically four to six months' time minimum. Once we have that license in place, then only operationally we will be active in the U.K. Just to brief all the investors on the floor that during the current board meeting, we have also decided to open a rep office and make an application in Bahrain. As all of you are aware, in Dubai, we have one of the most active rep offices in Dubai. On the similar line, we would like to have an opening in Bahrain also.
These are the plans in the long run where we would like to spread our footprint on the global map. Definitely, the procedural time in every country is different, and once we have fully fledged license, then only the actual activity will start.
Jugal, these would be inbound investments, right? Because most of our products are India-centered.
Of course, yes.
Okay. The last question was on the RM addition as well as the productivity metric that we should look at.
Yes. RM addition, we're looking at about 50-60 RMs to be added this year. We have about 460 account managers. We have 460 account managers, which is our talent pool, which we are nurturing day in and out on a one-on-one basis. Like I, as a relationship manager, have three account managers who act as apprentices to me, helping me with the analytics to show mathematics to clients. Those guys have been trained. Now, two of my account managers are slated to be promoted. If I sum it up, do not hold me to that number. About 60 is what transpires as the numbers are.
Feroze Bhai, you just briefed on the per AUM. Per RM, AUM as well as the number of clients, the progression which has happened in number of clients currently.
Yes, sir. Yes, absolutely. AUM per RM has gone up to INR 198 crore. And that's because longevity makes it a—because this is a snowball effect. This is a business; a rolling stone gathers no mouths. The person who spent 5 years, 10 years gets a huge business. It's like a business after 4, 5 years of an RM investing his time in one platform gets a hockey stick kind of a progression. If you ask me, AUM per RM has gone to INR 200 crore, owing to the low attrition and the sensibility of an RM to not roll into different organizations and lose marks in the process. The second is our active client families have gone up to 11,732. Same time last year was 9,900. We touched the 10,000 mark and have beaten it.
The clients per RM, which tells us the kind of capacity we still have with the existing RMs. See, one is to increase the number of RMs from 382. The other is 382 itself can handle 6,000 more clients. That's the unutilized current capacity of the clients in machineries, which is going to see a cruise in very soon. Second, in terms of technology, we are adding a lot of technology. I actually have been saying in some forums, I'm trying to act like an acting CTO to try and make sure that we augment these others to be able to handle more clients, handle more assets more effectively with lesser time. There I've spent a lot of time personally, and I'm very, very positive on the kind of scalability, not just in the existing unused capacity, which is 19 clients per RM is the Rakesh's limit.
50 is the limit. We are already at 31. That implies 19 more clients can be handled by each RM, multiplied by 382, tells you close to almost about 6,000-7,000 clients can be managed without an RM addition, which is the kind of capacity which is unutilized. If technology can take that to 60, then I have almost 10,000 clients I could add without one new RM. Of course, that does not imply that I will not add new RMs because there are 450 waiting in the queue to prove their merits. That is another mutually exclusive source of client management without having to dip into a lateral tool from the industry, which is something most industry participants are facing. You will see the kind of attrition people are outbid. You train them internally.
If you buy them from one person, then somebody else buys them from you. We try and make sure that you train them and bring people who have a social fabric which is identical to your DNA. Bhavin Sir? Sorry, that was a very longish answer because I used the open canvas to say whatever I wanted to.
No, no, I think it was really useful, Feroze. Good luck for FY2020.
Thank you, sir, for all the support.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Lalit Deo from Equirus Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi sir, good afternoon. Sir, I have two to three questions. Firstly, sir, in this particular quarter, we have seen that the other income has increased up materially. What were the reasons for the same? Second, with respect to the guidance which we have been given, which we have given for FY 2026, now if we just back calculate it, then what we find is that to achieve the PAT guidance of about INR 375 crore, the EBITDA margins have to increase materially to 44-45%. There has to be some operating leverage which has to be taken. Can you explain those areas where we are looking to increase the operating leverage?
Sure. Can I ask Jugal Mantri to answer the first part of the question?
Yes, Feroze Bhai.
Lalit, as you know, that in case of other income, we have seen increase, which is incommensurate with the growing amount of structure which is being deployed in the fixed deposit. The fact is, and the second thing is on account of changing fair value on the investment which we are handling. Normally, the fair value change is being considered in the Q4 only because to give the effect instead of changing it in every quarter. Even if you will compare the other income, which was INR 19.4 crore in Q4 2025, which was around INR 13 crore in Q4 2024. The broad breakup of the same is around INR 10.8 crore is on account of changing fair value of the investments which are being held by Anand Rathi Wealth Limited. The rest of the amount has accrued as interest on the fixed deposits and other financial assets.
Just wanted to ask, sir, these investments, are they related to the investments in the unlisted equity shares, or is it more towards the derivatives that?
No, no, these are investments which we are holding as a long-term investment in our balance sheet. These are like unlisted investments which are being held in our balance sheet since a pretty long time.
Sure, sure. And just to take the second part of the question, Lalit.
Yes, please. Yes. Yes, Feroze Bhai, thank you.
Lalit, your question was on operating leverage. We believe that we like to reinvest in this business. However fancy an operating leverage word sounds to an analyst, I would not want you to expect too much operating leverage. Of course, the guidance implies there is an operating leverage. Our benchmark is 40% of PBT and 30% of PAT. There could be years where you have already reinvested on behalf of the subsequent year. PBT moving from 41, 42 to 43, 44 in the order of magnitude, I would not call that huge operating leverage. There are some efficiencies we have been working on, and that could actually add 1-2%. That is why that guidance of INR 1,175 for revenue and INR 375 for PAT, 20% growth on revenue and a 24% growth in PAT.
Now coming to where all there is scope, Rakesh Sir has always told us that if I'm giving a guidance of 20-25% for 10, 15, 20 years, it can't happen. Long-term consistency can't happen with short-term operating leverage. We have to reinvest in areas where we believe we can have larger scopes of improvement. Product team, we have invested for years. Technology, we have not invested as much. There is scope for improvement. In terms of operations, in terms of finance, accounts, everything, HR practices, we would like to reinvest. We don't expect the shareholder to believe that there will be operating leverage in the short term, both can't be achieved. If there is scope for it, we will do it. Like for example, we are trying to redesign our offices just like a Starbucks has a very identical format.
If all my 17 offices can be operating in maximum efficiency, another 600 employees may not need another office. We are doing experiments there. Something like that. We look at efficiency. We are a cost-sensitive company, but also significantly more value-sensitive company rather than just the cost. Does it answer, Lalit, why? I know I am tapering down your expectation on operating leverage.
No, no, sir. Sure, sir. Just to tie to this, just last one data keeping question. What were the primary and secondary structured product issuances in this particular quarter? How much of these structured products are likely to get matured in FY 2026?
Hello? Yes. Vishalji?
Yeah.
What is the number? Vishalji will read out that number specific.
For the quarter, the primary issuances were INR 1,392 crore. For the secondary, it is near about INR 800 crore.
847 crores.
Yeah. Does it answer?
Vishal, how much of that is your maturity for FY26?
Maturity, I think about INR 3,500 crore. I can get you that number before the call is over. If you can just check with Feroze, he will know the precise number. Yeah, the maturities are reasonably healthy. Of course, quite a few analysts were asking us for maturities being low last financial year. I think because we moved from three- to five-year in 2020 August. Last year was a relatively lull year. I think this year is going to be a reasonable maturity. I'll just tell you the precise number in a couple of minutes when I'm speaking at structured product share.
Is that fine, Lalit? I'll settle that before the call is over to give you precise answers.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amansingh from ProfitGate Capital Services. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. I have two questions. First is, in this quarter and full financial year as well, our structured product AUM has increased by 50%, but the revenue that comes from it has increased by 15-17%. Is there any moderation in the yield of structured product? This is one. Second, your thoughts on how Anand Rathi Wealth as a company would be seeing the SIF as an opportunity for distribution, and what do you think how the industry is taking it as of now?
Yes. The answer is no. AUM is a picture, and yield is a movie, generally when it comes to mutual funds, for example. In structured products, yield is generally calculated per annum, however it is accounted. Our structured product yield at maturity, if you backwards calculate what is the mutual fund equivalent, it generally comes to 1.18% per annum on market value, average market value. That remains, and that has remained for really long periods of time, if not more than a decade. Does that answer, sir?
All right.
We do not see any compression there. Since.
Sir, yes.
Sorry, sir?
Yes. The second question on SIF.
Sorry, you're not very audible, so that's why my second question I couldn't figure out as correctly as the first one. Can you go again with the second question, sir?
The second question is on the specialized investment fund product that the SEBI has launched recently.
Oh, okay. Got it. Got it.
Your thoughts on that?
My thoughts on that is I don't think it will take off. Very, very candid thought on it. See, special investment, special whatever they call it, they called it an asset class. It's a product class. See, when you're trying to curb the derivative volume, that's where it all started when the SEBI chairperson said that people are dabbling in derivatives. Why don't we give them a little more aggressive product in the mutual fund category? But the leverage permitted there is 0.25. If you really wanted some movement from the derivative space to something which is active managed, a little more liberty to the fund manager, I think you shouldn't have tied it down to such low leverage levels. Of course, there are three different categories: equity, debt, and hybrid, and long, short, and all that.
I personally think that somebody, for him to be motivated from a INR 500 instrument to a INR 1,000,000 minimum ticket size, needs the fund manager to have more flexibility than what is currently desired for that motivation to happen. Definitely, if people exhibit performance over long periods of time and that agility is transpired on paper, can attract mass affluent for sure. Affluent for sure, if not agile.
Are you not currently looking to allocate those funds when they are launched by AMC to our existing clients? Is it also a paper?
Not at all. See, what happens is even a new fund offer I have not approved for the last 13 years because there is no three-year track record. A new category of a license, I would look for data because if my client's objective is 14% with 0.6 beta with Nifty, if I'm able to achieve that for the last 11 years with a Jensen's Alpha, which is what Alpha implies in India, excess return is took to be Alpha. Alpha in the U.S. is always referred as Jensen's Alpha, which is risk-adjusted Alpha. If I've delivered about 5% Jensen's Alpha, which is a little over Berkshire Hathaway's Jensen's Alpha of Class A shares, why would I look for something else unless my Jensen's Alpha is not being met? The point is no.
We will surely not look at a new platform being onboarded on the client's portfolio just yet because the client's objective is being met. Our promise to the client is we will always operate at least common multiple to get you that return at the risk desired, which is excess in beta. Does it answer, sir?
Yes, this is helpful. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, you may press star and one to ask a question. A reminder to all the participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Sunil Shah from SRE PMS. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Feroze and the entire team, congratulations on the great, great numbers that you achieved. Feroze, for the new responsibility and the new role as well.
Thank you.
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks to everyone. Yeah, just Feroze, one point, and the entire team there. As I understand, as a company, we have got processes for everything from client acquisition to relationship management to product selling to even the promotions in the organization and the competition that is given to the team. I just have one point here. We have those 12%, 13%, 14% kind of written expectations that are set for the client and business which we do allocation between mutual funds and structured products. Am I audible? I think there's some disruption.
Yes, yes. Very much, very much. I'm very intently listening to you and your question.
Yeah. Okay. Great. Okay. We have those categories of allocation between mutual funds and structured products. Again, for mutual fund selection, we have a research team which is identifying the products which we are in need to put it across to the client, etc. Feroze, the structured product part of it. Every time whenever we interact with analysts or anybody, there is a big lack of understanding amongst people. Can we request you to spend one hour, do a Zoom call along with the product guy to explain to all of us how this structured product really works? That is just a request. It is not a question or anything. If I want to understand this entire organization inside out completely, that is the missing link. All analysts also are believing because there is an inflow, outflow, etc., which is doing well.
Just the always being in the market for long, the US -64 kind of a situation always haunts me in my investment in this company. That's just a suggestion request that we could understand the structured product piece completely from your side on a Zoom call. That would really help. Yeah.
Absolutely, Sunil sir.
Yeah.
Sunil sir, yes. Firstly, thank you so much for your wishes to both businesses and me in particular. I'm very grateful for your wishes. Second, like you mentioned, that we have a process for everything. I'm glad that you've understood our business so much in detail and not just by call. We also have a person who's designated as a process head whom I've been working with for the last 18 years, and Sridhar Muni is the process head who's supposed to make sure that everything has a process. Coming to the third part, which is your suggestion, saying that can we have structured products explained to analysts? To my mind, we have been very, very transparent for structured products. Taken the suggestion, I can do one-hour Zoom call for 15 days at succession because I might just find some clients. Okay?
Because if I've been able to send this to 10,000 families, an HNI does not invest for long periods of time without understanding something. We have, and I think that's where Rakesh's intellect to uncomplicate things, even if they are optically complex, demystifying them, that's an RTF possession. Will we be very inclined to do it for a person who genuinely wants to understand? I think it's a great suggestion. We will definitely do that. Conceptually, let me answer it here. It's a very, very simple thing. It's a Black-Scholes pricing model on which an option is synthesized. Black-Scholes has won a Nobel Prize, and that's public information, and I've been saying this for so long, right? There are five finance theories which have won Nobel Prize. We use three of them. That's where the Jensen's Alpha comes from.
Structured products operate on a Black-Scholes pricing model. For example, there is a debt instrument. There is a derivative instrument in a calibrated fashion. The derivative needs to be held precisely without the discretion of the trader, exactly as for Black-Scholes. The same is, if the volatility is high, you realize better profits. If volatility is low, you realize worse profits. I will explain this, but a great suggestion, sir. I think analysts are very much capable of interpreting this because this industry has been there from 2006. We have a Section 50AA which is specifically for MLD, which now, so the Citi has issued structures. Many international companies have issued structures in India and globally, right? How are they hedged? We also have Nuvama as a structured product.
There are very, very good traders who have been doing this for long periods of time because it is difficult for a person who is long-only to understand how a derivative automated Black-Scholes pricing model operating in futures can generate a certain payoff. That we will explain in second decimal. There is no issue at all. Vishalji is taking a note of organizing this and inviting anybody who genuinely wants to understand this as an instrument. I will be very happy to know because it is no IP. It is Black-Scholes pricing model. It is not my IP at all.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Just the comfort for the investors like me and many others to get this business inside out and thoroughly understand it. That's the only suggestion that I have.
Yeah.
Yeah. Thanks, everybody, and all the best for the growth.
Thanks, Sunilji.
Thanks. Thanks, everyone.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Sridhar Gupta from RV Investments. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, sir. Congratulations on your good setup number. My question was regarding I was searching for the TAM of the TAM we operate in, and I could not generally get the number. Could you just address that to me? What is the TAM of our product?
What is TAM in the sense of we benefit? What is its aggregation to? Sorry, start in my mind.
That is our structured product.
If you can paraphrase your question again, you want me to explain structured product? What?
What will be the addressable market size regarding to the?
Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm not familiar with this lingo. But yeah, the total addressable market, I personally think here you don't take a market share. You create the market, right? There is hardly any structured product, unlisted structured product, non-principal protected structured product selling is we would be now, as of now, 70-80% of the market. We create the market. Anybody who has wealth, 35% of that money is if I have INR 1 lakh crore of aspiration for this year-end, INR 35,000 crore is the market size. Are you with me?
Okay, sir.
Okay. That's how we've operated. 2013 is when the first issuance, Anand Rathi Global Finance did. And whatever money I collect, approximately 25%-35%, depending on the portfolio one chooses, needs to get into structured products. So if I collect 10,000, like last year, if I collect INR 12,000 crore, I would ideally have INR 4,000 crore of net flow into structured product. That is if all clients agreed and all three agreed to, were able to use mathematics to convince them to the right direction. Does it answer, sir?
Okay, sir. Okay. My follow-up would be regarding the sale. What is the percentage share of all the different products, like the equity and the mutual funds?
That depends on the client. We have 11,700 clients. We do not run 11,700 different portfolios because we promise everybody we do our best. It is an oxymoron to have 11,713 bets. Coming back to your question, what proportions do these four portfolios have? They have anywhere between 45% long-only equity to 65% long-only equity and different proportions of structured product depending on a person's life stage with us. It is not specific, one product. If you ask me one product, what I follow, I can tell you, right? I pursue a 14% product with 65% in equity mutual funds and 35% in structured. That is what you will see in my NSDL statement.
Thank you.
Other than Anand Rathi Sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Prayesh Jain from Motilal Oswal Financial Services. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Congratulations on good set of numbers. Just one, when you give your guidance, what is the kind of mark-to-market and flow assumptions that would have got built into your forecast?
When it comes to guidance of revenue and PAT, we do it very differently. AUM guidance is generally an aspirational number. Revenue and PAT is always bottom-up. Rakesh sir and I would have spent an hour with each RM over the last few days to understand their business plans. We go, if there are 31 clients, the leader looks at some, then he brings it to the unit head. It is always bottom-up targeting. That is how we arrive at a guidance. Because if we say we have an entrepreneurial culture, then the target cannot be top-down. We put some buffers as genuine management intellect and then give the guidance. It is not on the basis of market.
It's on bottom-up as much as we have client sheets automated, which helps the person understand what is the maturity coming, what kind of new clients will he have, what kind of penetration he will have. That's how it's bottom-up. 382 numbers get added minus some degree of conservatism, which is again told to us by our interns. We do that. Does it answer Mr. Jain?
Just trying to understand this. Even when you are sitting with an RM to discuss his end of FY 2026 aspiration of an AUM, he would have or you would want to seek from you what is the kind of market returns he could build for his AUM numbers. He would give you a flow number that he would be able to get from his existing customers or from the new customers. That is what I was looking for as to that could be because the end-to-end number could be similar for all the 300-plus RMs that you have. That could be similar, right? Otherwise, everybody would assume their own setup of a mark-to-market and give the aspirational target.
Yes, definitely, sir. You're absolutely right. When it comes to mark-to-market, we look at a very conservative number of 8%.
Okay. Okay. Got it. That is what is built in. Thank you so much.
That's what is built in, including the mutual fund aspect.
Right. Right. Got it. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next follow-up question is from the line of Bhavin Pande from Athena Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for the follow-up. In terms of flows, what would be from the vintage customers and what would be from new families?
Yes. Vishal sir, 63 from existing clients and 37 from new ones.
Okay. Secondly, Sridhar, just expanding on the structured product. We said when there is a period of high volatility, we would look to sell options because of higher realization as compared to buying options depending on our view. In this kind of an environment where VIX could move capriciously, how do we sort of navigate our way through this kind of an environment?
The first part of the question, which was a hypothesis that you buy and sell puts, is not right. Let me clarify how it works here.
No, no. I said the options, when you are bullish, you buy calls or you sell puts and the other way around.
See, now if you design a product, now if we have a product which has already been designed the same thing for 1,300-1,500 times, there you sell put spread. Hypothetically, you sell put spread of different expiries, but all those are not liquid. You synthesize it using futures. If futures have a larger volatility, foreign issuer, generally in the product we currently construct, be it Nuvama or Anand Rathi Global Finance, higher volatility implies higher futures buying and selling. Coming back, once a product is issued, we have not changed the product for the last 10 years. We think we are in a high interest rate, high volatility environment for the last so many years. That is why put spread selling is what is embedded in a structured product. Does the first part, am I clear in the first part? I will go to the second.
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Those products have been denied, that's your answer. Used to put spread betting it. Why do you sell put spread? Because you are higher interest rate economy, you have a higher volatility. You're realizing greater vols, and you're realizing greater interest rates. If it was interest rates in Japan, negligible, you buy calls and not do spreads because the calls are going to be so inexpensive because the forward rates of the same index is going to be very, very close to the spot rate. Now that we have been designing a product in a certain way because the macroeconomic variables in India are designed that way, and it's 20 years from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, if that changes, then the construct of the product will change.
Now that it has not changed for the decade plus, I have been doing structured products from 2006 when Merrill Lynch issued the first structured product, and ironically, it was in a PMS platform of an asset management company. The same asset management company analyst is asking me, "Explain to me structured product." Ironically, because that happened, I told him, "आप ही ने तो मुझे सिखाया 2006 में. जाके देखिए." Right? From 2006, mostly India has been a put sell or a put spread sell market for anybody who wants to go long, not unlimited long. Now, how does one hedge it? The issuer knows that all these options which are embedded in the product may not have the liquidity or most likely will not have the liquidity. He will hedge the book's delta, gamma, theta, vega, rho. This is what he will hedge.
Delta will be positive, gamma will be positive, vega will be negative. Sorry, gamma positive, vega negative. Lower the vega, lower the realization, and rho will be positive. This is the dynamics of most of the issuers today. Delta positive, long gamma, short vega, and long rho. Sorry, short rho. Because it is a technical concept, I am just telling you that he will hedge a book. He will not hedge individual options. If you have issued 100 products, an issuer will issue 100 products which might have 500 different options. He will put it on an Excel sheet, all the 500 options with different expiries, run a Black-Scholes pricing model, and he will hedge the ultimate delta of that 500 options embedded in 100 different products.
When he is hedging it, if market becomes and (uncertain) becomes generous and he gives us a little more volatility, then the issuer will be able to hedge it a little more easily than he would be able to. That's what I meant, that volatility helps the issuer.
Okay. Of course. I think just.
As soon as this is set, we will do a specific full-blown training session. We do not want to call it an explanation session. Any questions, no holds barred, can be answered with Excel sheets and mathematics.
Yeah. I think that would be really helpful, Feroze sir, to do something like that.
Done. I promise you this will get done. Vishalj i is a very, very sharp man, and he's written it down in his diary. Seldom do things get dropped off his diary.
That's it. Thanks a lot and good luck again.
Thank you, sir.
Thanks.
Now, Vishal sir, in the meantime, Bhavin sir has asked that question. No, no. I was just because Somil gave us that number, right? The maturities are anywhere between 4,000-5,000 across internal and external issuers. Lalit sir had asked this question. I promised Bhavin sir will get back to him. Yes.
Thank you. The next follow-up question is from the line of Sunil Shah from SRE PMS. Please go ahead.
Thanks. Thanks for the follow-up. Yeah. Thanks for the follow-up. Just one point. I think I've spoken about it earlier also in the last call. Out of this over 11,700 odd families, hello?
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Yeah. Out of 11,700 families that we have, how many of those would be NRIs or clients who are out of India?
Sunil sir, I'll just tell you. So long as you sort of speaking. Just give me a minute or two. I'll tell you the precise number. I don't want to.
Yeah. Sure. My point here is about GIFT City because the income that we earn from them would be tax-free for us. If we can put up a subsidiary at GIFT City and serve those clients from that platform, the income earned in the subsidiary would be tax-free for us. Hence, we could generate some bit of more alpha. Maybe it is a 10% number of our clients or 15% or whatever that number is. That would help us. I think if we can evaluate that as an option to serve our NRI clients.
Absolutely, sir. Sunil sir, it's a very, very good suggestion. We have been examining that. I do not want to commit today. When it comes to NRIs, NRIs in numbers could be a smaller proportion. If values are larger than the numbers, for sure. I will give you the precise numbers. It is a great suggestion. Now that you are bringing it up, we will take this up a lot more seriously, and it will move up the priority list. I will do that.
Sure. Meaning even if it is 10% or 15% of our AUM, it certainly helps us to save on those tax funds. That is the only thing.
Absolutely. Absolutely. It also opens up a larger part of the balance sheet. What I'm very thrilled about is, see, when you have a Dubai office, we did a survey to figure out how much of the total wallet we have for an Indian client based in India and a Dubai client investing in India. The apprehension of completely converting capital into rupee exits. This dollar denomination also brings in a certain larger penetration possibility depending on, yes, taxation, larger penetration possibility. We are working on it. Have we done adequate progress? I'm sorry to say no, but we will definitely move this up the priority list.
Sure. Sure. All right. Thank you. All the best.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, you may press star and one to ask a question. As there are no further questions from the participants, I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Feroze for closing comments.
I'd like to thank everyone for being a part of this call. We hope you've tried to answer your questions. If you need more information, please feel free to contact Mr. Vishal Sanghvi, our Investor Relations Head, and our CFO, Rajesh Bhutra. Thank you, everybody. Sunil sir, I'll just tell you the number. It's about 10-12% in NRI area. Thanks. Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of Anand Rathi Wealth Limited, that completes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.