Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Angel One Limited's Q2 FY2025 Earnings Conference Call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star, then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as of the date of this call. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Hitul Gutka from Angel One Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Good morning and welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us today to discuss Angel One's Q2 FY2025 financial and business performance. The recording of today's earnings call and the transcript will be uploaded on our website under the investor relations section. The financial results, investor presentation, and press release are also available on the website. For today's call, Angel One is represented by Dinesh Thakkar, Chairman and Managing Director; Vineet Agrawal, Chief Financial Officer. We also have the senior leadership team of Angel One, along with SGA, our IR consultants. The leadership team will give us a brief overview of the operational and the financial performance of the quarter gone by, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session. Please note, there may be certain forward-looking statements made during the course of the call, which must be viewed in aggregate with the risk that the company faces.
With this brief introduction, I now invite Mr. Dinesh Thakkar for his opening remarks.
Q2 FY2025 has been an eventful quarter, characterized by regulatory changes and strategic initiatives at Angel One. First, SEBI introduced the True-to-Label regulation with the goal of ensuring the standardization of transaction charges for trading and investment fraternity. SEBI also introduced some tightening of regulation around the derivatives segment for the industry, with admirable intent of strengthening the equity index derivative framework, focusing on the long-term sustainability and protection of investors, particularly small retail participants, while promoting growth and stability in India's capital market. These efforts include the rationalization of weekly index derivative products to one per exchange, increased contract sizes for index derivatives, and a 2% increase in the ELM on expiry day. While these adjustments may potentially result in short-term softness in trading volumes, they are expected to fortify the market in the long run.
We at Angel One will continue to monitor client behavior closely in coming quarters, and we remain optimistic about the long-term outlook measured as a lifetime value for our clients. Our belief stems from our past experience of SEBI's earlier interventions, such as peak margin regulations enacted in December 2020 and the margin segregation between cash and collateral in May 2022. Taking into consideration the permanent impact of the True-to-Label transition charges, we implemented several proactive tariff adjustments, including the introduction of brokerage on cash delivery orders and the imposition of interest on disproportionate non-cash collateral offered as margin exceeding INR 50,000. These measures, as communicated in our previous earnings call, were designed to mitigate the revenue impact while maintaining a sustainable business model.
In our ongoing effort to enhance our market share, we have rationalized the interest on the margin trading facility offering to a flat rate of 14.99% annually, based on our successful experimentation in the previous quarter. We believe this approach will help us continue to garner a larger market share in the growing MTF segment. Diversification remains a very important aspect of our overall growth strategy. Angel One went live with the distribution of credit products on its platform after thoroughly testing and incorporating client feedback. The company launched unsecured personal loans through partnerships with three NBFCs and plans to onboard more partners soon. The digital distribution model offers deep penetration, providing access to credit to a diverse client pool. The platform utilizes a proprietary propensity scorecard for risk management. This scorecard was developed by leveraging our data analytics capabilities.
As of the 30th of September 2024, cumulative disbursement to our platform totaled ₹3.6 billion. As we progress in this segment, we will take a calibrated approach in scaling up the credit distribution business based on enhanced risk understanding. We also launched the distribution of fixed deposits on the app through ties with six partners, including banks, small finance banks, and NBFCs. Our clients can now invest in fixed deposits as an off-the-shelf product without the need to open a bank account, further diversifying our product offerings. In the mutual fund space, we achieved significant milestones, reporting our best quarter with more than 2.3 million unique SIP registrations, including more than 800,000 in September 2024 alone. Signifying the excellence of our mutual fund journey, we witnessed a positive trend in terms of time to first SIP purchase, average ticket size, number of clients doing their second SIP, etc.
The adoption and maturity achieved by the product on the platform suggests that the engagement and retention efforts are paying off well. The expanding suite of products, from equity broking to distribution of third-party financial products, showcases the evolution of our Super App and its advanced capabilities. As we continue to enhance our product offerings, we are steadily becoming more capable of fulfilling all clients' financial needs and empowering them to close their financial lifecycle loop within the platform. On the broking front, we remain committed to improving the trading experience through technological advancements. During the last quarter, we launched a refreshed version of Spark with several key announcements, augmenting clients' ability to change order preference and optimizing search functionality for better keyword matching, to name a few advancements.
In addition, we integrated ChartIQ into our platform, providing an alternative to the existing charting option available on the Super App. The strategic use of data continues to drive our operational efficiency and improve client engagement. Data democratization and advanced data science solutions provide sharper client insights, improve client support through automation and streamlined operations, ultimately enhancing client retention. During this quarter, we also witnessed notable progress in our assisted business. We redefined the partner acquisition, engagement, and retention playbook, refined the journey on the NXT platform, and integrated a signaling mechanism to empower partners to engage with clients more effectively. Leveraging our strong data analytical capabilities to develop cohort personalization based on behavioral insights, the business vertical continues to experience significant growth as a result.
As a part of our ongoing effort to invest in building blocks of wealth management, we have expanded the team and our presence across different cities. We onboarded talent with deep knowledge, with deep domain and tech expertise, as well as decades of experience in client relations and a proven track record of delivering success at some of the large global consumer-focused tech companies. In addition, we are augmenting our relationship managers' bandwidth as we focus on penetrating and serving clients in tier two cities. We strongly believe that there is a tremendous growth opportunity, especially in the HNI segment, which is currently the underserved segment. Through our wealth management, we strive to leverage that domain expertise, coupled with our technology capabilities, to disrupt the business and offer the service to the wider audience.
Our asset management business awaits final regulatory approval, and we will provide updates in due course. During the quarter, we further solidified our management bandwidth with the onboarding of Arief Mohamad as Chief Business Officer, Direct Business. Arief brings over 16 years of distinguished experience in e-commerce, scaling up business with a strong understanding of customers and highly superior engagement. Prior to joining Angel One, Arief served as Vice President and Head of Fashion at Flipkart. He led critical chapters ranging from creating customer-first strategies for shaping client engagement, spearheading loyalty programs, overseeing digital marketing initiatives, and growing the mobile and fashion category by leveraging data. Operationally, Angel One delivered strong results in Q2 FY25, acquiring approximately 3 million new clients, with about 90% coming from tier two, tier three, and beyond cities.
These acquisitions mean our total client base exceeds 27 million clients, making us one of the largest players in the industry. Our focus on gaining and sustaining our market share is evident from the 44 basis points of sequential expansion in our share in India's demat account, reaching 15.7% as of September 2024. Our clients executed nearly 490 million orders during the quarter, translating into an EBITDA of more than ₹871 billion on an equity option premium basis. With a 19.3% share in overall retail equity turnover, we continue to report improvement in our market share across all segments. Our sustained focus on growth, client satisfaction, and technological advancement is further solidifying our position as a leading player in India's evolving financial ecosystem. Here, I would like to emphasize that our focus on unit economics guides us towards healthy business growth.
Our digital model enables us to achieve economies of scale with superior lifetime value while optimizing the cost of acquiring clients, thus enabling us to sustain our robust profitable metrics despite the evolving customer demographics. Now, I will ask Vineet to take you through our financial performance before we open the floor for questions.
Thank you, Dinesh Bhai. Good morning, everyone. Amidst the quarter with muted volumes, I am happy to share that Angel One delivered a very strong operational and financial performance with sustained market share gains in demat accounts, active clients, and retail equity turnover. Our aggregate orders grew by 5.8% sequentially to nearly 490 million, aided by a 6.7% higher number of trading days. We clocked our highest-ever quarterly total gross revenue as we crossed the INR 15 billion mark for the first time, registering a 7.5% quarter-on-quarter growth. Our gross booking revenue grew by 2% sequentially to nearly INR 9.4 billion in Q2 of FY2025. The growth in our gross booking revenue trailed the growth of our aggregate orders as we witnessed a healthy growth in the cash delivery orders from our direct business, where we did not charge clients during the quarter.
Gross booking revenues accounted for 62% of our total gross revenues, with F&O contributing about 81% in Q2. Share of cash segment rose to nearly 13% of our gross booking revenue, which shall improve further as we start charging for orders executed in the cash delivery segment under the flat fee plan from November 2024 onward. Share of the commodity segment also increased to 6% in Q2 of FY2025. Since the majority of our clients are part of our direct business unit, their share in the net booking revenues stood at approximately 77%, while the balance of 23% was contributed by clients acquired through our assisted business unit. With rising volumes in our cash delivery segment, we witnessed corresponding growth in our client funding book as well, which averaged at nearly ₹39 billion for the quarter, sequentially up by 48.1%.
Our period-ending client funding book stood even higher at INR 43 billion. Growth in the interest earned on this book also factors the differential interest rate charged to our assisted business clients. The interest earned on client funding book, along with the interest earned on deposits with exchanges, grew by 22.1% sequentially to INR 3.6 billion, thus accounting for about 24% of the total gross revenues for the quarter. Effective November 2024, the interest charge on margin trading facility across all clients is being reduced to 14.99% from 18% earlier. We believe that this alignment of interest with other industry peers and our seamless offering of the product will help grow the client funding book and cash delivery orders, thereby offsetting the impact.
The ancillary transaction income linked to the value of the orders executed by our clients on our platform remains stable at INR 1.1 billion and accounted for nearly 8% of our Q2 FY2025 total gross revenues. From October 1st, 2024, it is this income that has got extinguished as per the recently introduced SEBI circular of July 2024. In our effort to insulate the business from this impact, we have implemented several measures as highlighted by Dinesh Bhai in his opening remarks. Income from distribution operations grew 53.4% sequentially to INR 257 million, accounting for nearly 2% of our gross revenues for the quarter. This was predominantly driven by a higher number of IPOs coupled with full-fledged distribution of credit products through our platform to our clients.
Finance costs increased by 35.7% quarter on quarter to INR 754 million on account of 38% quarter on quarter higher borrowings to fund the growing client funding book. Employee benefit expenses, including the cost of granting ESOPs, grew 14.6% sequentially to ₹2.3 billion on account of headcount increase in the wealth management, technology, product and data analytics teams. The increase in employee benefit expenses since ESOP cost is on account of new joinings and accrual of variable pay for the wealth business, while the increase in ESOP cost is on account of fresh grants to new joinings across the businesses. Other operating expenses for the quarter fell by nearly 25% sequentially to INR 3.7 billion. In Q1, we booked INR 1.1 billion on account of proportionate cost towards IPL Associate Partnership and related digital and media advertisement spends. The same does not form part of our Q2 financials.
Net of this brand spend of Q1, our other OPEX declined by 2.1% sequentially, despite nearly 16% higher gross client acquisition during the quarter. Our Q2 reported consolidated EBITDA margin stood at 49.9%, while this was higher by 1,220 basis points quarter on quarter as compared to our reported Q1 margin. It was still better by 191 basis points quarter on quarter when compared to the normalized Q1 margin at 48%. This operating margin also subsumes the expenses on incubating new businesses of asset management and wealth management. The robust margin profile validates our granular focus on the unit economics as we reap the benefit of higher lifetime value of our clients, which is core to our growth metrics.
Depreciation and amortization costs increased by 13% sequentially to INR 256 million in Q2, as this was the first full quarter post-capitalization of assets in Q1, coupled with increased incremental assets capitalized in Q2. Our reported consolidated profit after tax from continuing operations grew by 44.6% quarter on quarter to INR 4.2 billion, making this our historic best profit performance. The normalized PAT for the previous quarter was INR 3.8 billion after netting out the impact of IPL-related costs, and our reported profit for Q2 is higher by 12.2% sequentially. Our H1 total gross revenues and profit after tax stood at INR 29.3 billion and ₹7.2 billion, representing a growth of 57.3% and 36.3% respectively over the corresponding previous quarter. Our H1 profit after tax is 63.6% of our entire FY2024 profit, demonstrating our sustained and strong growth trajectory.
Period-end cash and cash equivalent client funding book, investments, and security deposits with exchanges stood higher as of 30th September 2024 as compared to 31st March 2024. Correspondingly, we also witnessed higher client monies and borrowings as of 30th September as compared to March 2024. The consolidated net worth of the company increased to INR 52.8 billion as of 30th September. As we continue to operate the business within our desired margin profile, our H1 annualized return on average equity remains healthy at 34%, an improvement over our Q1 annualized ROE, which was impacted due to softer margin and higher net worth on account of the fundraise. We strongly believe that our ROE is on the trajectory to trend back to our historical levels in due course. With this, I conclude the presentation and open the floor for further discussion. Thank you.
Thank you. We will now begin the question- and- answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Swarnabha Mukherjee from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.
Good morning, sir. Thank you for the opportunity, and congratulations on a great set of numbers. Four questions from my side. First of all, on the circular on the equity derivatives space, just wanted to—I mean, you have already mentioned that there could be a shorter-term impact on the trading volumes in terms of some softness there. Just wanted to understand how we are seeing the impact for us. Maybe if you can give some quantification or the proportion of clients who might get impacted by the different facets of the regulation, particularly the lot size increase in specific. What could be your actions maybe on the same corrective actions or pricing-related actions that you might want to take on the F&O side? So that is the first question.
Next, on the cash delivery segment, I wanted to understand whether the price increase can lead to some amount of sensitivity of customers because one large player has still not increased the price in the segment. If you could give some color on what could be the blended realization of the segments as the pricing kick in, whether it would be closer to the INR 20 mark that is there or it should be somewhere in between. A couple of more things quickly, sir. One is on the interest income side. The UPI block mechanism, how do you see this panning out? Would you expect a shift there? Related to the strong delivery in terms of the expenses this quarter, just wanted to understand what steps you have taken to control the cost this quarter and whether this can be sustainable. These are my questions. Thank you.
Thank you, Swarnabh. First, on circular on this derivative segment, we said this is very difficult to quantify exactly how much would be the impact, but our estimation is that impact would be roughly in the region of around 13%- 14% of net income that we get from the customers. But if you look at tailwind, that customer acquisition run rate, which is in the region of around 50%- 60%, it seems this impact would be negated in not more than a quarter or two quarters. But what is important is that intent of SEBI is to reduce losses of retail audience. So if losses reduce, if they're able to achieve that, lifetime value of a customer is going to increase. So we have very often missed that in terms of lifetime value, there is no impact.
There can be impact of revenue from a customer in a week or a month or two, but we work on a business metrics of cost to acquisition to lifetime value. That is not going to change. The second factor, what we see is that growth rate of customer base, which continues to be in the region of around 50%- 60% for digital players, including us, that will continue. The small kind of correction, regulatory changes, which makes the market healthy, is always good for the long-term prospect of an organization like us. We are very bullish in terms of revenue that we are going to get from the customer in terms of lifetime is going to be the same or is going to increase.
Second, as we are entering into multiple products because customers will be retained on our platform, we will be able to sell more products to the same customer. So overall, we are expecting that we will be able to get more wallet share from the same customer on cash segment.
Sorry to interrupt, sir. Just before we move to the cash segment, I just wanted to clarify that this 13%- 4% number you mentioned, is this only on the F&O broking or overall broking distribution of interest income altogether?
No, no. It is broking and related income from broking, demat charges, and all of the related income that we get from customers related to his broking activity. That is what I'm mentioning, impact on that total income from a customer. So when we calculate lifetime value from a broking customer, I'm talking about that income.
Okay, sir. Just one clarification: would you take any measures to neutralize it, or as the lifetime value increases, you will eventually see it recuperate? I mean, I was just curious whether we should expect an industry-level pricing increase there, and you might also want to take that step. I wanted to understand.
Pricing is not exactly connected to this. Pricing can be because we are offering a better product on our platform. There's a big difference between pricing what we are offering and what a traditional broker with inferior kind of experience is providing. It can be factored off that. But if you look at why changes in derivative contract, cost is not increasing. So if cost is not increasing, there is no impact on margin. So there is no reason for us to really think about pricing immediately. Till that time, we see impact is we will not be able to recover. But if you look at customer base, the rate is growing to the tune of 50%, 60%. It is a matter of extra capacity that is created. But having said that, we are open to, if at all needed, to work on price and all that.
Currently, we would like to wait for a quarter or so to see the impact of volume. As I said, I do not see any kind of impact in terms of cost escalation, in terms of serving a customer or acquiring a customer. It is a matter of time that we would bounce back to a similar kind of OPM. Price, there is lots of elasticity. If we go for price increase and all that, I don't see any impact in terms of customers not coming on our platform. This platform, time and again, we have seen it is not sensitive to price to the tune of INR 5 per order. There were lots of competition who came out with INR 10 per order and all that. They were unable to gain market share. What is important is that experience of a customer on this platform.
If they see value on this platform, and if we feel that we need to increase price, there is nothing that we feel that we will lose customer or customer will not come on our platform. So there's a big difference between pricing what technology players are offering and what traditional brokers are offering. Still, there is quite a headroom that if we want, we can utilize that.
Understood, sir. Very clear. Sir, if you could address that in any way.
And second, on cash segment, it appears to be blended. Kind of realization would be closer to what we get in F&O because we have seen ticket size is quite decent in cash segment. So it will be somewhere around what we get in F&O segment. Third, we were talking about UPI blocking mechanism. Vineet, if you can take this or Devender can take this.
Swarnabh, as by secondary market or UPI block, as you mentioned, this is mandatory offering for QSBs from January onwards. Let's wait and see how the client behavior pans out. We don't see that there is going to be any significant impact on this because of the ticket size of our clients. But again, this is something which we'll again discuss maybe during the fourth quarter call once this mechanism becomes active.
On your fourth question on expenses this quarter, I see primarily we have accounted for all the expenses for all the businesses in this quarter. What you will see is that in future quarters, as you saw that we are now able to sell our loan products and all that, slowly we'll see lots of revenue coming from that vertical where we have already accounted for expenses. But there is one factor of expenses which is very important for you to keep in mind: acquisition of clients. If you get an opportunity to acquire more customers, given that we are entering into quarters, IPL and all that, if we need that opportunity, always, as I say, it is an upfront cost where revenue is going to follow for the next five, six years.
We would not shy away from taking more expenses if we get an opportunity to acquire more customers and get a better market share.
Understood, sir. Very clear. Thank you so much for these responses and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Prayesh Jain from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Hi. Hi, sir. Congratulations on great numbers. Just on the new businesses, so we just burst around $3.6 billion in terms of loans distributed, rather. So what is the kind of realization that we are getting, and what is the kind of aspiration of this segment to be, say, in the next one year or so? That would be my first question.
Sure. We are very bullish on all these new businesses because, as you said, we migrated from broking app to Super App. The reason was that we want to be leaders in all kinds of distribution business, be it loan products, be it insurance, be it anything that a retail customer wants. So we have very high aspiration in terms of being leaders in that segment. On numbers and everything, I'll ask Agrawal to answer this.
Hi. In terms of the ticket, I think we are at par or slightly better than market standards right now in the distribution business, and more and more details of the business will get out once we ramp up the business over the next few quarters. And where are we in terms of wealth management with regards to products, RM addition, and where are we in terms of wealth management?
So there on the line.
On that, I'll take that.
Yeah.
So there are a combination of things that we have done. As Devender mentioned, this is more a combination of very strong domain expertise and bringing technology together to deliver that and add efficiency. We've already started to do two sets of activities. First one being that we have already started to publish content, which is across three different categories of content, which you will see in the investor relations presentation as well, across macro views on asset classes, across views on overall macroeconomy, and specific news on events which happen. Those things have started. Separately, we have already initiated a third-party distribution business where a combination of mutual funds, PMSs, AIFs have already started to get offered to customers. Where are we in terms of RM counts? What are the addition plans there?
The relationship team is getting hired, a combination of people, some people on board, some people joining us over the next few months, serving their notices. The RM team is under the ramp-up stage right now, I think.
The retail one.
The full-service team should be built out over the next month or so. So you will see the full build-out of the RM team in the next quarter.
Got that. Sir, I'm on the assisted partners business. What is the kind of AP network that we have today, and how many have we added in the last six months? Also, the mutual fund business is mentioned to be scaling up from that element. So will the distribution revenue start growing from that channel as well, and what kind of potential do we see there?
See, AP business, we are very bullish on AP business. There's a reason. We have brought in a big team and big changes. In AP business, we believe that not only we would be looking at distribution or getting revenue from broking, but also distribution of mutual fund, insurance, and all that. For further detail, let me get in Nishant over here, if at all he's online. I think there was some disconnection. So Nishant is disconnected. Let me take this. In terms of number of APs, we are in the region of around 9,000 to 10,000. This business is also growing as equal to our digital business. Share of AP business is around 22%- 23% of our revenue. We feel that this business will also be able to keep pace with this growth in digital business.
Thanks. Last question. On the burn rate of these new businesses, what should we think, and when do we see real contribution from these businesses, say, from FY2026, FY2027? How do we see the burn rates in these businesses going ahead?
For new business distribution of loans and all that, we are already seeing traction in terms of getting revenue from that. In a few quarters, we will start distribution of insurance on our platform. This new business is where we have been invested for 18 months. They have already started giving revenue. On the website, I feel it is a matter of a few quarters, it will start giving good revenues. As previous earning call, we guided everyone that this burn rate would be around 2%- 2.5% of our total revenue. That way, we maintain that because we want to grow all that vertical. We believe that kind of break-even for new businesses would be in the next one and a half, two years. Maybe wealth may take around two and a half to three years.
Got it. Thank you so much, sir. All the best.
The person you are speaking with has put your call on hold. Please stay on the line. Speakers, please go ahead.
Hello? Yeah. I'm done with my questions. I'm done with my questions. Thank you so much.
All right. Next question comes from the line of Swechha Jain , Whites tone Financial Advisors. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for giving this opportunity. Sir, I have two questions. One was on the lending distribution that we have started. Just wanted to understand what would be our revenue model there. Are we getting some one-time kind of fee for distributing these loans, or it will be like how do we make what would be the income out of that? What is the revenue model basically for us there? The second thing, on the NBFC lending, what happens if a loan defaults? Will the loans that we are distributing count as an NPA for us, or does the credit risk belong to the banks or the NBFCs through which we are tying up for distribution? This was the first question. Answer this and I'll ask the second one. Thanks.
No, no. Maybe last second. So let us take all the questions, and then we'll answer one by one.
Okay. So second one was on the transaction standardization of the transaction. I think you did mention some bit of it in the opening remark, but I kind of joined a little late. So I missed that commentary. So just wanted to understand how do we plan to negate that impact? Because I think it will be an impact of INR 400, 410 crores on an annual basis. So how do we kind of take care of that impact of the transaction cost?
Okay. So impact of transition, you are talking about transition cost. That is True-to-Label , right?
The transaction charges, which we were charging, we used to charge slab-wise to our customers.
We have increased our kind of or maybe we have started charging for cash delivery transactions. We have put we are charging interest on collateral that we receive for. By putting all these additional kind of charges on cash segment and charging for collateral that we receive as a margin, we would be able to negate this impact of True-to-Label . Second comes change in F&O contract size and rationalization of weekly expiries and all that, one contract per exchange. We feel that impact would be around in the region of 13%- 14% of the total income from the client. We are seeing that customer base is growing at a rate of 50%, 60%. We would like to see the kind of impact on overall behavior of customers.
We'll take a call whether some action has to be taken on price side or is there any other lever that we can use to negate that kind of impact. Too early to talk about that impact, but True-to-Label impact, we have negated by putting charge on cash delivery and interest on collateral that we receive. On NBFC, Saurabh, if you can answer on one time and risk of that credit default.
Sure. Sure. On your first question on how we intend to make money on the lending distribution piece, the idea is to charge a one-time payment for a loan that is disbursed via an NBFC. And each time the customer takes a repeat loan also, then again, we make the one-time payment for that loan itself. So the idea is to have the customer on our platform and to serve the customer continuously over his lifetime, where if he takes multiple loans, we make money on each loan.
Okay.
That is in terms of the income. In terms of the default, I mean, since we are purely in the distribution business, the default completely lies in the books of the NBFC and/or the bank that we have tied up with. There is no implication of the default on our business whatsoever.
Okay. Thank you. That really helps. Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nidhesh from Investec . Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. First, can you break down the OPEX that is being incurred for wealth management and asset management business in quarter two?
Devender Ji, if you can take this.
Yeah. So Nidhesh, as we have guided in the past, the overall impact of the OPEX for incubating the asset management and wealth management businesses is about 1.8% of our OPM. So this 49.9% OPM, had we not spent on the wealth and asset management businesses, would have been around 51.5%. Secondly, in the assisted business, the mutual fund distribution that we will be doing, that will be regular plan or direct plan? And if you can share the quantum of AUM that you have gathered through assisted business mutual fund distribution.
Nishant, if you can take this.
So as far as the mutual fund side is concerned, we are operating through a regular mutual fund. If that was the first part of the question on the AUM request.
Nidhesh, right now, we're not sharing the AUM numbers. We'll disclose it as we feel it appropriate at some later time. Sure.
Just last question on, again, on assisted channel, do we also have plans to distribute loans and other financial service products through the AP channel? Is there any update on distribution of such products as of today?
Yes. As articulated in some of the previous interactions, our business is not an only-channel play. We intend to have clear plays in multiple categories of products and therefore multiple channels. Therefore, a short answer to your question is yes. More details would follow once we have rectified and initiated some of those plans.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Nitesh, for my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sandhya from Unicorn Asset. Please go ahead.
Hi. Swarnabh, this is Sandhya. Firstly, congratulations to the team. I think we've gone for such great set of numbers in such a challenging situation we are facing as a business. My first question, sir, would be on multiple questions or small questions for the basic answers. Firstly, on the market share increment in the demat, incremental market share in the demat. That is reduced by almost 2% if we see quarter on quarter. Do you see any impact on the SEBI circular for not going via the unregistered partners? Is there any impact on that? Firstly. Secondly, on the INR 500 crore limit for trading member, that would be reviewed, I think, intraday now from January, I think, maybe new circular. Thirdly, on the you're saying that lifetime value of the customer would be increased.
I wanted to, if you can throw some numbers, how do you think the LTV would be increased? Because you are saying 13% to 14% impact on the net income from the customer through the broking side. What other products do you think would be able to compensate this? And lastly, if you could share the average ticket size or the per-order value for the equity cash segment for last year, not current year, but if you can share that, that would be useful.
On market share on demat, Devender or Bhavin, you can take this question on this standard core trading limit. On LTV, what I meant is that when a customer comes to this market, he or she allocates some share of wallet to do trading and do some activity in cash or commodity market. That is not going to change. So if a customer loses lesser amount in the market, that person would be encouraged to continue for the longer term in the market. So when we calculate lifetime value, we see that what's the activity of a customer which would be there for a block of, say, five years? The data suggests that lifetime value of a customer is beyond five years because we have almost completed a kind of cycle where we can extrapolate data beyond five years.
We can see there is a life left beyond five years also. Now that we have introduced more products on our same platform, mutual fund, we have seen good traction of people buying mutual fund. If you look at mutual funds and all that, almost we can say that customers would continue to invest in this market if they start their journey at 25, 26 till the time of retirement. In kind of broking activity, trading activity, we are seeing if they lose less money, they are going to be more active or for a longer period, they will be active in the market. That will increase lifetime value. Plus, they will buy multiple products on our platform. Overall, what is important is that retention of a customer on our platform. If they lose less, they are going to stay more.
On other questions, average order size we don't disclose. The limit and trade limit, if it was Devender and Bhavin can take this question.
Can you repeat the question on the market share reduction on DMAT side? It was not clear on our side.
Yes. Sure. If you see the presentation, last Q1 FY25, the incremental share in DMAT account was 22.8%, whereas 21.1% share in incremental DMAT account in Q2 FY25. Wanted to understand the almost 1.7% impact in the additional new DMAT account. Is this because you see any impact due to the change in the regulation that we cannot now tie up with the unregistered people with trade limits?
Okay. Yeah. I think at an overall level, we have maintained that we have been working on the overall business metric of profitability of the client. Keeping that as guideline is how we proceed. We have moved ahead in terms of market share acquisition. At an overall level, we don't see any subdued in terms of market. At our level, we have maintained our margins, and there might be a small change in terms of growth here and there. But at an overall level, we see that the market share that we have been doing, which is around 23%, will remain constant and will progress from that point of view.
Okay. So no impact from the new circular that you cannot tie up with the unregistered people, right?
No, Sandhya, if I may add, the digital channel, digital referral agent was not a large business for us any which way. That doesn't have an impact on the customer acquisition. As Devender pointed out, there will be times during the year where we could be lesser than the usual other quarters. But that is more to do with how we see the market panning out from a profitability standpoint. As Dinesh Bhai had also pointed out, the cost of acquisition is a function of what kind of opportunity we see in the market. In the last quarter, we saw differential opportunity, and therefore that plays out in the way the number of customers we acquired for that quarter. But in the subsequent quarter, things may again change. This is a very volatile number. Nothing should be drawn on the basis of this.
Okay. And on the INR 500 crore limit for trading impediment?
Yes. On the INR 500 crore limit, as you know, there is a clearly defined number by SEBI. But we don't see this getting impacted to our retail base as of now. We have not seen this as a problem at our end.
You're saying that there would be no impact on our trading position, even at the same time?
Okay. And lastly, if I could ask you, you are not sharing the per-order value for the cash segment. If you can share the overall turnover for the last year?
Do we share any of the numbers that are asking?
We share the overall cash turnover, not the cash delivery turnover. Cash turnover for the.
Yeah. Overall, intraday and delivery, both could share. Yeah. Sorry?
Yeah. Can I just come back on this number?
Sure. One last question for Dinesh sir. I just wanted to see if we can have a separate call with the wealth management team once the business starts. There are a lot of questions we have.
Yeah. Sure. We are also equally excited to have a call. So definitely, we will arrange a separate call with the wealth management team with their plan, their solution, and what they are planning in next three quarters. Sure.
Great. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you. All the best to the entire team. Thank you.
The cash turnover was ₹100 billion for the quarter.
No, sir. Last year, if you can share our quarter. Okay, fine. We can extrapolate. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Better.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sanketh Godha from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, can you give me what is our equity derivative market or options market? What is our premium to notional percentage? How much premium cost is typical we collect compared to the notional ADT? What are we doing only in options market? If you can give me a disclosure, that will be useful. Second, because the premium turnover data clearly is not available in your presentation. Second is that we just wanted to understand from your total volumes perspective in options derivative, how much is contributed by banks? That's the second question.
The third question I have is, sir, that given your indicator that there could be 13% to 14% impact on the net income, if you can give a waterfall on that impact, whether it will be more because of the lot size increase or reduction of the number of expiry days. So in your assessment, which will be impacting that 13% to 14% impact on the net income? Lastly, if there is a 13% to 14% impact, would you still maintain that EBITDA guidance which you shared at the start of last year or this year, around 43% to 44% for the full year? Those are my questions.
Yeah. In terms of premium volume, I'll just ask somebody to answer later. On this impact of 13%, 14%, there is no very simple arithmetic what you are saying that, okay, is there an impact of Bank Nifty and this? So we have seen that when lot size was decreased just in the beginning of this financial year, if you apply that logic, our volume should have really gone up substantially. But it does not work that way. So based on past patterns and all that we try to do working on, what kind of customer activity would be? And instead of what they are doing, what they will do? So our data science team has worked out a kind of a bit complex kind of metrics, which we are able to extrapolate that based on past whatever has happened.
It seems the impact of these changes what SEBI has announced would be in the region of 13% to 14%. Mostly whatever kind of prediction we have made in the past, you will see, they are very close to what impact we see in the industry. Unlike lots of our competition that gets worried. But I think it does not work very arithmetically that, okay, person doing one job, we stop doing it. But by that sense, even when lot size was decreased, there would have been substantial rise in volume, which happened in April 2024. We did not see that kind of rise in volume. So the way retail works now, it is not that in the market for one lot, if that is not available, they are going to totally withdraw from the market.
A youth who wants to come in equity and want to trade, they will explore a few other opportunities, or they will bring in more money or whatever. So this is how we calculate it. It's a bit complex based on our data science models.
But on.
Yeah.
Sorry. Yeah. Based on your assessment, maybe I understand that you say difficult number to quantify. But your model says that whether it is more to do with lot size increase or more to do with reduction in the number of expiry days, which will have an impact. I mean, I just wanted to understand which impact may be greater.
So it is a combination of both. But weekly expiry has been reduced. More impact can come from that side. But as I said, if a customer is active in the market, instead of doing, say, 10 lots, he may do maybe six, seven lots in that month. But if I take extended circumstances like activity for a year, his activity for a year would proportionately be almost the same, I would say. So sometimes in weekly options, also not necessarily that client is active all the weeks. So if they get kind of a lesser expiry, so then in a year, they will trade almost of an equal kind of quantity. So our model is based on, maybe based on this rationalization, there can be kind of a larger impact in a month or so.
But if I extend this for a year, it seems that impact would not be as high. On your second question, whether guidance on EBITDA would be able to maintain that, yes, definitely would be able to maintain that.
Got it.
We can see improvement in that because now we are able to sell multiple products to the same customer.
Got it. Got it. Got it. Perfect. Maybe before Dinesh can answer premium to notional number, just if you can quantify your revenue from loan distribution in second quarter or one-half.
To only just say just because we have started this quarter, give us one or two quarters so that we are able to be a bit precise in terms of guidance and number.
Got it. Perfect, sir. And on initial two questions, the premium to notional and banks' contribution to total number of orders.
Banks are separate contract. We don't disclose. Dinesh, if you can take that first question.
Yeah. Thank you, Dinesh. Bhavin. Premium to notional ratio is similar to what exchange ratio is. It's in the range of 16 basis points to around 18, 19 basis points. It hovers between that.
Okay. So basically, average what gets reflected in NSE is broadly reflected at year end too, right? In that sense?
Yes. Yes. Perfect.
And just trade to because if it's 16, and if it's trade to, assume that in your volume, still banks' contribution is not meaningful because premium to notional is meaningful to your revenue.
Sorry, Sankeet, those are numbers we are not able to disclose today. So we can't give you index-wise what volumes we do.
Okay. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. That's it from my side. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pallavi Deshpande from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Thank you for taking my question. I just wanted to know on the wealth management side, the INR 250 crore investment, so what is the stake we hold versus the co-founders that we brought into the business?
Wealth management company is 100% subsidiary of Angel One, and there is a separate ESOP pool for that company.
Right. I wanted to have a sense of where do we see our holding four, five years down the line in the wealth management arm?
It depends on performance and all that. Too early to say that. There's an ESOP pool which we have created based on performance.
Okay. Okay. Right. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, please limit yourself to two questions only. The next question is from the line of Aman Singh from Profigate Capital Services. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. I have two questions. First, on the MTF side, we highlighted a few quarters earlier that we'll focus on the MTF, and we have doubled the book in a year. Now we have reduced the interest rates on MTF. So is it the competition that is haunting the MTF, and the growth will slow down in coming quarters? This is first. Second, we are selling regular mutual funds in the wealth management part of the business and direct mutual funds on the platform, the Super App that we have. What are the plans to monetize the customers that are purchasing direct mutual funds from us? Are we planning to introduce regular plans on the Super App also? These are the two questions. Thank you.
On MTF side, it is not that we got influenced by competition and all that. It is based on leverage what we can get and growth prospect that we see in that vertical. We would like to increase our market share. So if you look at viability in terms of business model and all that, it is viable at this rate. In fact, if at all we see higher volumes, we would be okay to adjust price because what is important? What is the offtake of this book? That is important. So what we are seeing currently, we saw a good opportunity in terms of growing this book size. Keeping that in mind, we thought let us put the price where it becomes viable for a customer to borrow money and trade in the market and all that.
All said and done, equity is going to give a certain return. We have to see that customers who are using this facility, it becomes viable for them to avail of these facilities. Based on that, we take decision and we look at growth opportunity and what kind of growth we can see in that area. On second question, on that platform, we offer direct, and there is no kind of need for us to monetize as these customers are doing some other activity on our platform. As I always say, we don't look at revenue or profit per transaction. We look at the revenue that we can get from relationships. A person who onboards and buys mutual fund on our platform, they are probably going to be retained for a longer period of time.
That whole lifetime, they are going to do far more other transactions, avail of more services on our platform. So if you look at lifetime value, obviously lifetime value is important for us. So we believe this person who starts SIP journey and would be buying more multiple products, the lifetime value of this customer who starts onboards as buying mutual fund directly or a customer who onboards as an equity, it appears lifetime value would be almost similar.
A small follow-up on the second part. As we are now entering the wealth management business also, will it not be better that we target the bottom of the pyramid, the people who are buying direct funds by monetizing and selling them the regular funds because we are entering the mutual fund distribution business to the wealth arm also?
We have totally different models. Wealth management is more of kind of an advisory guidance for people who want on that wealth. Direct business on the platform, people who are taking their own decision, and they would look for some kind of digital advisory and all that. So we want to keep it separate. Because people who are coming on the wealth management side, they want to pay for advisory service or they want to pay for guidance that they get for their wealth and for their assets. We want to keep it distinct. Distribution would be on our platform, which is direct. If at all any customer wants some assistance, there is a charge for that.
Right. Also, just a small clarification. As you highlighted earlier on the call that the company will not shy away from any upfront marketing that will give us more customers. So the IPL cost that we incurred last year, the IPL sponsorship cost, that would be there for next five years. There are no change in plans because of the disruption in the F&O part of the business. Am I correct?
Yeah. Yeah. Because we would like to continue being, I would say, increase our market share. So wherever you get opportunity in terms of top-of-the-mind people who want to consider to come into equity, our name should be our first choice for them. We would continue to spend on IPL plus complement by putting in more expenses on branding and all things what we did last year. We have seen a big benefit because of doing this activity and complementing with some branding activities. We'll continue with that. Now we have more reason because now more products are available on our platform where commercially we can just sell and earn from that.
Right. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Good luck.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ajox Frederick from Sundaram Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. There's one question, sir. Sequentially, our admin and other expenses adjusting for IPL has come up despite clients or the customer acquisition going up about 15%, 16%. So what are we doing differently this quarter one? And can this cost optimization sustain the coming quarters? That's my question. Thanks.
We work on cost of acquisition to lifetime value. Every quarter, you'll see there will be some kind of difference because cost of lead and all that changes, pricing on social media changes. There can be small variation. But what we look at, average cost of acquisition across the year. We believe wherever we see opportunity that we have been able to optimize that cost, we would like to scale it up and acquire more customers. Our focus is on getting market share. Wherever we see unit-wise economy is viable to acquire more customers, we would like to go for that. Current focus is not on optimizing cost. It is more on market share.
There could be some elevated cost coming up subsequently?
If you get an opportunity, yes.
Okay. Great, sir. That's very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Parth from Alpha Wave Global. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Congratulations on a great set of numbers. Just have one question. How frequently do you hit the open interest limit of 15% given we have 20% of the market share of the market turnover? Also the consequent question is, how large do you think you can grow from here on this front?
On open interest, we haven't faced a kind of big problem. Bhavin, you'd like to take this?
Yes, sir. Part of this, we have not seen this particular problem at our end. As the market open interest, the 15% of market open interest, whichever is higher, we have a share of that. We don't see an issue as of now.
Got it. Just one more question. The 13% to 14% impact that you are expecting from the incoming regulations, is this on today's stock user base or are you also factoring new customers coming in and adjusting for that as well?
No, no. This I am saying for impact of per client who are active, what will be. But if I take a growth, automatically, maybe it gets offset in one or two quarters. Because we are seeing tailwinds in this industry in terms of acquiring new customers, new customers coming to this market continues at the rate of 50%, 60% for digital pairs. I'm not factoring in that growth rate. Factoring the growth rate, then impact is negligible. In fact, we will be positive again in next year.
Understood. This is very helpful. Thank you so much, sir. Good luck for the quarter.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Arvind from Sundaram Alternates. Please go ahead.
Hi, team. Thank you so much for the opportunity and congratulations on the good set of numbers. Just a quick.
Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Arvind. Could you come up close to your handset?
Yeah, yeah. Is this better?
Yes.
Yeah, it's better.
Sorry for the interruption. But when we talk about non-BSDA accounts, is it safe to assume all the active clients would make up the major portion of the non-BSDA accounts or would it be much more than that?
Bhavin, if you can take this.
It's safe to assume that most of our active customers are non-BSDA also. Would it make a significant proportion of it? Or would it be only 50%, 60% of non-BSDA accounts?
Yeah, yeah. Most of them is non-BSDA and it will not have an impact. That's what we can state as of now.
And you were also talking about the operating profit margin would have been 1.2% higher if it had not been for the investment we made in asset management, wealth management. Is it primarily one-off kind of an expense or is it going to be a subsequent every year such level of expenses need to be incurred for a wealth management business, but the revenue will come a bit later as you mentioned two to three years for the business to break even?
No. See, we have invested in different verticals in different kinds of timelines. If you look at loan distribution and all that, they already become active and they're selling their product. This 1.8% is what we have been spending on other verticals which we have accounted, but still that revenue has not started from that verticals. But if you look at the distribution of loan, already in this quarter, we are seeing some good numbers. Immediately, we will see for distribution of other verticals like insurance and all that also in a few quarters, they will kind of come in. Similarly, next year, you will see revenue come from wealth management and all that. Difficult to say what's in percentage, what's in decrease would be there.
But in terms of our continuing to invest or put money in this vertical would be there because we want to grow this business. We want to see that we become market leaders in whichever area we get into.
Just one last thing, if I can squeeze in, sir, at the market, especially the brokers, are they confident of being able to increase the charges if there is a considerable decline in number of trades or volume per client?
I don't see any concern for digital players because there are limited digital players who have excellent platforms which are working at a scale and all that. If there's a need for anybody to change this kind of pricing, I see that we have lots of elasticity in terms of increasing our price. Whether it is necessary or not, I think once we see what kind of impact is there and if it is necessary, we'll increase it. For the two-wheeler label, we thought it is necessary, we increase it. We don't feel there is going to be any impact because of charging for cash on delivery. Similarly, if we see that impact is beyond what we were anticipating, I'm talking about digital players. I think they have a good kind of platform where customers, once they use digital platform, they don't mind paying ₹5 or ₹10 more.
What is important is that they want to see experience and engagement that they are having on the platform. That should be superior and we should be able to maintain that experience. I don't think customers are sensitive on INR 5, INR 10 for all this.
Yeah. Sure. Sure, sir. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Yash Mehta from Artha Ventures. Please go ahead.
Hello. I'm Awareba.
Yeah, you're audible.
Sorry, I just wanted to know what is the kind of revenue target that you are anticipating for FY25?
We don't disclose forward-looking numbers. Sorry for that. But you can extrapolate what kind of customer base that we are growing. I don't see any kind of headwind on that side that will continue. You can put in fact what has told you and extrapolate for three, four quarters, you'll get the number.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shubhankar from Equirus Securities . Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you for giving me the chance. First of all, congratulations on the numbers. That is good. Secondly, my question is regarding the AMC license. What is the status update on that? Last quarter, when we were called, you told us that it's in progress and we will see it in the next two to three months, I believe. So when can we expect that?
Sure. Hemen, if you can take this.
Yeah, sure. So again, in terms of the license, I can say we are in the final stages of getting the AMC license. It could be any day, any time now that we hear it from the regulator. That's what we maintain now also.
And any targeted revenue from that we are planning around?
I think it will be too early to talk about the revenue metrics given that we have yet to get the license. The idea is getting the license and being on ground at the earliest. That is going to be our immediate next step.
Okay. Thank you. That's all from my side. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ruchita Kharge from Aves. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Good afternoon. My question was on the employee cost. How do we see this panning ahead in the following quarter?
We have taken most of the cost that way. If you look at like we are talking about next quarter, there can be some impact and all that. I see there is enough capacity. There is no need for us to really increase until the time we see some good opportunity somewhere and we want to bring in that vertical. Otherwise, steady state, business as usual, what we are doing. I think we have sufficiently spent on employee cost. There's no need to increase. Only we will see now optimization of this cost because after reaching certain age in any digital business, there's optimization. But once we start spending on other vertical, being in a growth industry, there can be an opportunity where you would like to spend.
But if you take businesses that we are doing, I think over there, we have enough kind of spend on people needed for this vertical.
Okay, sir. And sir, just one more question. The 13% to 14% impact that we've said, so it's basically on the per order that a client places, right? If he was placing five orders per month, so that we are saying that that can reduce by 14%, right?
Again, as I said, the 13% to 14% impact is immediate. But if I take the activity of a customer on this platform for a year, two, three, I don't see there will be any impact on lifetime value. If you take it this way, if I take an activity of a customer for a quarter or two because there are less opportunities, they may trade lesser by 14% to 15%. If I take revenue from a customer for a quarter or two, but if I take a block of one year or two years, revenue from the same customer and what we got previous, the circular, would be almost the same.
Got it, sir. Just one last question on the interest cost. Our interest cost has gotten elevated a little bit. How do we see this for the whole year and the next year maybe?
Vineet, if you can take this.
Interest cost is an offset of the MTF, the client funding book that we have. As the client funding book grows, part of that will be funded through borrowings and the interest cost will go up. It's linked to our borrowings for the client funding book.
Understood. Understood. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Due to time constraints, we have reached the end of our question and answer session. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Dinesh Thakkar for closing comments.
Thank you for joining us on this call today. I hope we have answered your queries satisfactorily. Should you require any assistance, please feel free to contact Hitul Gutka , Head of Investor Relations, or SGA, our Investor Relations Advisor. Have a good day.
Thank you. On behalf of Angel One Limited , that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.