Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to APAR Industries Limited Earnings Conference Call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star and zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ambesh Tiwari from S-Ancial Technologies. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good evening, everyone. This is Ambesh Tiwari from S-Ancial Technologies. I welcome you all for the Q4 FY 2025 earnings call for APAR Industries. To discuss the business performance and outlook, we have from the management side Mr. Kushal Desai, Chairman and Managing Director, Mr. Chaitanya Desai, Managing Director, and the CFO, Mr. Ramesh Iyer. I will now pass on to Mr. Kushal Desai for the opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yeah, thank you, Ambesh. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the APAR Industries Q4 and the full year's earnings call. Let me start by actually giving a quick overview of the overall performance of the company. I will follow that up with a short update on the industry and the spending and trends. Then I would like to get into more details on the segmental performance of the three major businesses. Post all that, we can open up the floor to questions. APAR concluded the financial year with both revenue and volume growth across all three business verticals. It's an all-time high quarter for us, and for the first time in our history our quarterly revenues crossed INR 5,000 crore. For Q4 FY 2025, the consolidated revenue came in at INR 5,210 crore, which is up 16.9% year-on-year.
The domestic business continued to demonstrate a strong growth, and the domestic side is up 31.4% versus the same period previous year. Our export mix is at 31.3% for the quarter. The U.S. business has improved in this quarter. It is 195.6% higher than what it was over the last year's Q4 and is 48.1% more than Q3 FY 2025. There has been an increase in the execution of orders and the receipt of orders from the U.S. thus far. In terms of EBITDA, our EBITDA is up by 5.7% to INR 483 crore. It is a 9.3% EBITDA margin. The profit after tax came in at INR 250 crore, which is about 5.9% higher than the previous year. The profit after tax margin is at 4.8%.
If you look at the 12-month consolidated revenues, we stand at INR 18,581 crore, which is 15% higher than a year ago. Exports have contributed to 32.8% of revenues in FY 2025, as opposed to 45.2% in FY 2024. Coming to a few key industry highlights, according to the National Electricity Plan, India's peak power demand is expected to hit 388 GW by 2031, 2032, for which the country would require a power generation capacity of 997 GW. This will necessitate expanding the transmission and distribution network from source to grid, and then through the last mile to the consumer. The Union Government is planning to connect all upcoming green energy units to a green national grid at an estimated investment of INR 4.9 lakh crore between 2027 and 2032.
The NEP also projected that during the same period, 2027 to 2032, India's battery energy storage capacity will reach 47 GW, and the current capacity is just about 300 MW. On the renewable energy front, the Ministry of New and Renewable Energy achieved a historic milestone in the renewable energy sector for the financial year FY 2025, as the country has recorded its highest-ever renewable energy capacity addition in a single year, adding 25 GW, which is nearly a 35% increase over the previous year's addition of 18.6 GW. India's solar power sector led this growth, with the capacity addition rising from 15 GW in FY 2024 to nearly 21 GW in FY 2025, marking an increase of nearly 38%. The country also achieved a significant milestone of surpassing 100 GW of installed solar capacity this year.
Additionally, India's solar module manufacturing capacity has nearly doubled from 38 GW to about 74 GW in March 2025, while the solar PV cell manufacturing capacity has tripled from 9 GW to 25 GW. All these are indicators that show that solar addition should continue to take place at an accelerating pace. Coming to the transmission line and substation addition, in FY 2025, India's transformation capacity has grown by 7% year-on-year, the installed capacity by approximately 5%, and the transmission line network by approximately 2%. There were many issues with respect to right-of-way constraints and land acquisition hurdles, which impacted growth. Also, with the national elections taking place in this financial year, the first few months were pretty much lost in terms of all the election-related activities, with relatively less expansion taking place through that period.
To address the rising demand and to facilitate integration of the renewable energy sources, the transformation capacity and installed capacity will need to grow by exactly 2x , and the transmission line network by approximately 1.3 x by 2023. This demand will be largely met through the tariff-based competitive bidding, which is the TBCB. 45 Inter-State Transmission Systems, or what we call ISTS projects, will be awarded under the TBCB through this period of FY 2025 onwards. The Central Transmission Utility of India Limited has released a rolling plan, which is running up to 2029, 2030, projecting a CapEx of almost INR 4.3 lakh crore for upgrading the ISTS network. Coming back to the financial performance by each of the individual segments, we can look at the conductor segment first. In the fourth quarter of FY 2025, revenues grew by 24.5% year-on-year, driven by strong demand in the domestic market.
We also had a higher amount of realization and exports from the U.S. Volumes grew by about 5.9%. Exports contributed towards 24.5% of the overall revenue. The U.S. revenue grew by 142.6% for the conductor division over Q4 FY 2024 and 229% over Q3 of FY 2025. If you look at the premium product mix, that has contributed to 45.9% in Q4 FY 2025. In terms of EBITDA post-open period forex, that came in at INR 41,430 per metric ton, as against INR 48,438 per metric ton in the same period last year. The product mix and growth in shipments to the U.S. has led to the higher EBITDA per metric ton over what we saw in Q3 FY 2025, which had come in at a period low of INR 18,860 per metric ton. The order book stands today at INR 7,163 crore. New orders received during the quarter came in at INR 2,114 crore.
On an annual basis, revenues have grown by 19.3%. Volume has grown by 7.8% versus last year. The export mix was 24.2%. Even though the volume growth is showing 7.8%, a lot of value-added products have been, the mix has moved towards that, which includes the substitution of the conventional ACSR conductors with AL-59. Also, the overall copper business has grown, with the copper transpose conductors going into the transformers being a major leading factor in the growth. Coming to the oil business, revenues from the operations grew 3.3%, but the volume has grown by 9.3% versus the Q4 FY 2024. Transformer oil volume growth came in at 7% higher. Automotive oil grew 6% higher, while the industrial lubricant side grew by 11.3% year-on-year. Exports remained a healthy 41.7% of the mix.
The EBITDA per share came in at INR 5,873 per share versus INR 4,251 from a year ago. If you look at the full year period FY 2025, revenue has grown by 5.2% to reach INR 5,087 crore. The volume growth has been at 7.8%. Transformer oil volumes have grown by 14%, driven by stronger demand both domestically as well as overseas. Our automotive sales growth, led by higher volumes to OEMs, has grown by 17.6%. Export for the year contributed 44% of the overall revenue. EBITDA per KL for the year came in at INR 6,145 per KL, as opposed to INR 5,746 per KL in the previous year.
Now, coming to the metrics of our cable business, our cable business revenue for Q4 FY 2025, it posted a strong revenue growth of 29.9%, 30%, to reach INR 1,410 crore on the back of both strong domestic demand as well as increased shipments to the U.S. Continued infrastructure CapEx has led to the domestic business growth. This includes shipments to various data centers that are being set up in the country and is covering not only Amazon but also Google, Microsoft, and Adani. Export mix came in at 28.4% in Q4 FY 2025 versus 24.7% in Q4 FY 2024. The U.S. revenues grew by 268% over Q4 of FY 2024. Coming to the EBITDA post-forex, that recorded a year-on-year growth of 21.5% to reach INR 150 crore. The EBITDA margin is slightly down by 0.7% versus what we had in Q4 FY 2024, but it is up 1% versus what we had in Q3 FY 2025.
This has contributed from a better product mix and larger shipments to the US. Scale economics has also added to improve the EBITDA margin over Q3 of FY 2025. The pending order in the cable business is at about INR 1,500 crore. If you look at the revenues for the 12-month FY 2025 for the full year, that has grown by 28.1%. Domestic business grew by 43%. The export mix stands at 31%. The EBITDA post-forex grew 13.4% to reach INR 498 crore for the year. The U.S. business has shown a recovery in this quarter, which, along with continued domestic business growth, has resulted in an all-time high revenue for the company, as well as for the conductor division, oil division, and the cable division individually.
This was in spite of the general election and some of the supply chain disruption that happened and the poor U.S. demand, which happened in the first part of the year. We have also seen increased Chinese competition, which has posed challenge in terms of export to countries where the Chinese products are well accepted, which includes some parts of Africa, Latin America, and Europe. We believe that the fundamentals of the business remain intact, and we are optimistic that we will continue to be able to deliver sustainable and healthy business in the coming period. The U.S. tariff situation continues to have a bit of an overhang until there is a DTA in place with the U.S. Hopefully, this is at an advanced stage, and we hope that the outcome will be favorable for India relative to what tariff is being charged to other countries.
I would just like to reiterate the fact that over 40% of the wires and cables and conductors are imported into the United States, which is over $20 billion from a total market, which is about $55 billion. With this whole energy transition moving towards more electricity-based demand and with the growth of hyperscaler data centers, where the largest number of data centers being added are in the U.S., we would continue to see the U.S. as being an important and a strategic market. The gap remains so high that the only way that the electrification can continue is with imports of products. Within, hopefully, a short time, the overhang should actually settle down in terms of where exactly this stands. The company is actually stepping up substantially its CapEx plan. We completed CapEx of about INR 500 crore in FY 2025.
We have a plan of adding INR 1,300 crore of CapEx through FY 2026 and running into the first quarter of FY 2027. The CapEx should go in in the next 12-15 months. Considering commissioning, in about 18 months, we should have most of this equipment up and running. This includes about INR 800 crore on the cable side with building of a brand new site. Post this expansion, we would expect a turnover to be able to be generated from that complex, which would take the business up to about INR 10,000 crore of capacity that we would have from what we've executed this year, which is close to INR 5,000 crore. It is essentially being able to double the capacity of the business.
We are looking at adding about INR 300 crore of CapEx to the conductor business, and that includes some of the rods which need to be produced for our cable business as well. We are also expecting to spend about INR 200 crore in the oil business, where we are building a brand new storage terminal in the JNPT port so that we can cut down the supply chain costs of bringing products into the country, better distributed across the manufacturing facilities we have. This is also going to allow us to be able to do bulk export from the terminal of transformer oil, white oils, and pharmaceutical oils, which is something that APAR has not had so far. We've had to resort to doing export only through flexi bags and containers.
In conclusion, I would say that looking at the situation today that I've explained, we are fairly bullish in terms of how the business will develop over the next few years. We are loading upfront the CapEx that we plan so that we have the capacities in place as the demand and the business continues to grow. We also have a very detailed corporate presentation in the investor section of our website. I would encourage you to please go through that to get a more detailed perspective on the company, its activities, and strategy. With that, I come to the end of my opening remarks, and we'd be very happy to open up the floor to questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Mohit Kumar from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. Absolutely pretty elastic job on the profitability. My first question is that from the looks of it, it looks like you are selling a lot of non-premium conductors in the domestic market. Still, you have been able to maintain the EBITDA per term. What explains the strong profit despite your exports? Is it AL-59?
Yes. So as you see in this particular quarter four, we have about 45% of the products coming from the premium products that we have. And this is actually excluding AL-59.
AL-59, we are still categorizing it as a standard non-premium product. 45% of the products are premium, giving a higher margin. Plus, you have AL-59 as a non-premium product, but still the margins are higher as compared to the conventional business. Secondly, as you see, this particular quarter, we had a rebound in terms of the U.S. business. The turnover from the U.S. business has increased, where the margins are higher, and that has also resulted in high margin, especially in this particular quarter. Broadly, these two are the reasons that have helped. Also, if you see that the copper business is also scaling up, the products and the mix of copper is going up. That is also helping us to increase the margins of the overall conductor division.
My second question is on the U.S. The U.S. looks to be a lot more uncertain compared to the last quarter, right? Is it impacting our , i s it impacting our sales in Q1? Is it a fair assumption that Q1 will be weak till the time we get the clarity as we go forward and the U.S. sales will peak once we have the FTA in place?
Mohit, Q1, actually, we are still continuing on the cable side. We got a green signal for a lot of the materials which had been planned to be produced in the months of April, May, and June. As you know, the tariff pause has happened up to the 9th of July. A lot of the order book which was there, we've got a tick to continue to execute that.
Some of the customers who are already at advanced stages of executing on their projects have even agreed to pay whatever is the differential tariff that comes in post the 9th of July as well because the cables are required to complete their projects. You won't see that dip actually taking place substantially in Q1. Also, keep in mind that a lot of product is already in the DDP stage, meaning DDP as in it's in transit. All that revenue will be booked in the first quarter of FY 2026. Similarly, even on the conductor side, there is a product which is being delivered. We've got clearances to produce and dispatch product for this quarter. I think beyond this quarter, many customers are just waiting to see what is going to happen.
Both from the U.S. side as well as from the Indian side, there have been various announcements and of trade delegations going back and forth, very high level, right, from Vice President of the United States, Commerce Minister of India, etc. The sense is that whatever be the final situation that settles, India should hopefully not be at the countries. Now, if you see the major places from where cables were being imported into the U.S., looking at the U.S. import statistics, countries were basically Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, India, Mexico, from where the kind of product range that we are exporting, the competition is coming from. Both Cambodia and Vietnam are seen as a proxy for China. Their duty rates are much higher than whatever were the tariffs that were originally declared.
India being at 26%, these two countries were at 44% and 46% respectively, and Mexico at 25%. That was what was announced. The pause came into everybody's attention currently. We'll have to wait and watch. That's why I said in my opening remarks, there is a bit of an overhang. I think the market requires a very, very substantial amount of import. It's exceeding $20 billion. The kind of demand that's coming from data centers and these things, one is continuing to scale up. One of the highlights which I did not mention in the opening remarks is that we've got, after supplying Microsoft quite satisfactorily in India, we have gone onto their global vendor list for supply to data centers in the United States.
That, I think, is another area that we're looking forward to be now able to participate in various RFQs that come up through our FY 2026 onwards. Does that answer your question ?
Yes, it does. It does. Thank you and all the best. Thank you.
Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mohit Motwani from Tara Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, am I audible?
Yes, yes, Mohit. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. First question is on the conductor exports. Now, we saw very sharp growth in the U.S. export on a quarter-on-quarter basis. Can you talk about the outside U.S. markets, what we have seen there? Because I think in the last quarter, U.S. was soft and other geographies were helping to give the growth.
I think in this quarter, seems there's some moderation in the outside U.S. markets. If you can speak about that.
Yeah. I think last quarter, we had actually explained in one of the questions that outside the U.S. and India, the rest of the markets were weak for us because the Chinese competition was very aggressive. This is the situation for the quarter which has just got over as well. Even for the future also, the immediate future, we see the situation continuing. It's a domestic market which is doing well in India. On the U.S. side, also in the last six months, what we've been doing is that we have been actually working in improving our on-the-ground presence in the U.S. APAR today has four employees, one very senior advisor, and three employees on the ground in the U.S. on the cable side.
There's one person who is being seconded there on the conductor side full-time. We've been signing up distribution and reps, manufacturing reps, which is what they call in the U.S., which is today covering now the people we signed up is covering about 75% of the U.S. market. We've been systematically working with them to increase our approvals in the public utilities, in the independent-owned utilities, as well as in the commercial industrial space, including real estate. On the ground, the thing is the U.S. market maybe has made quite a lot of advances in terms of on-the-ground presence, on-the-ground approvals. I also mentioned about the Microsoft approval just a couple of minutes ago.
As Chaitanya has mentioned, other markets where you are finding a lot of Chinese competition, there is a subsidy which is in the region of about 8%-12% coming in from China. Selected premium products, we've signed up some business in Latin America for HPLS and a few other premium products. Otherwise, the domestic market continues to remain very strong, and the prospects in the U.S. are looking better. If the tariff overhang wasn't there, I think we would have been looking at a very, very substantial runway and growth there. We are optimistic that this thing will also get resolved. Keep in mind that basic import duty for aluminum is at 25% even today in the U.S. As a consequence, even the local manufacturers are facing an increase taking place. That is not based on any reciprocal tariff, etc.
There is a separate notification out which is under the Section 232, under which this higher tariff has been applied for aluminum, steel, and a few other products. Even though we see that non-U.S. exports are not looking very attractive because of the pricing, the Indian market itself is very strong. The U.S. market, it will settle down, and we are quite optimistic that the business there is going to grow. We are basically gearing ourselves up to be able to make sure that we meet all that demand coming up.
Sure. Thank you for the details color . One more question on your employee expenses. Any reason for the sharp growth quarter on quarter? Is there any reason for that?
There's no specific reason for this. Some of the estimates based on quarterly numbers, we revised the employee benefit expenses. There is no specific reason for the drop in the numbers.
Okay. Sure. One more question on your cables. You mentioned the CapEx of front-end and CapEx of INR 800 crore. In the previous quarter, we have guidance for 25% revenue growth for cables. Did incremental CapEx increase our guidance for cables, or is this already factored in the higher CapEx? The 25% growth is factored in the higher CapEx.
We are still guiding a 25% growth for the simple reason that if you see, by the time this whole thing is executed and in place, it is really going to be available for revenues that kick in from FY 2027 onwards. Most of the money is going into the greenfield site, where almost 48 acres of property is being completely built up. All the civil infrastructure will be in place.
We are making an investment essentially a year ahead so that we have a clear runway to get to INR 10,000 crore in the business.
Got it. Thanks for the answers. I'll go back and look here. Thank you.
Thank you so much. The next question is from the line of Amit Anwani from PL Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for taking my question. And first of all, congratulations for the strong numbers. First question in continuation to cables again, sir. You said we'll be investing INR 800 crore, and revenue is going to double in the next three-four years. I wanted to understand this incremental INR 5,000 crore revenue as we have been also discussing in the past, the specialty cables like electromeric, E-beam, and low-duty cables also. Where will the focus be in this capacity expansion, and will it be margin accretive? Any guidance of directional margins which we are targeting to achieve?
In terms of where the capacity expansion is happening, all varieties of cables are expanding. If you take the XLP side, which is the power cable side, our medium voltage capability, which is your 11 kV, 33 kV. In this expansion, we will also have the ability to manufacture 132 kV and up to 220 kV. All the testing equipment, manufacturing equipment, everything is going in. Our total capacity to produce medium voltage cables and up to 220 kV cables, if you aggregate that, it will go up by 4x from what it is as of today. There are two new lines coming and two existing lines getting transferred to the new plant and getting completely rebuilt.
There will be not only this capacity expansion, but our utility cost and conversion cost will also substantially fall. If you come to the low-tension cable side, because we do a whole lot of specialty LP cables, UL approved for the U.S. market, which go into the residential, commercial, industrial, utility, etc. That portion of the business, also the capacity will double from what it is today. We are also looking at doubling the capacity that we have for the medium voltage cables that go into windmills. We are seeing a big resurgence on the windmill side. Our sense is that there will be modernization schemes that will come up. If you look at the windmill landscape, once upon a time, the wind power was much more than solar power. If you dial back about 10 years.
Those windmills that have gone in are all very low capacity. The windmills are 250 KW, etc. Today, the minimum standard is 3.3 MW, 3.5 MW. A lot of new windmills are being added to form the hybrid combination of wind and solar. In addition to that, we expect that over the next few years, a very good policy will come in, which will upgrade the old windmills to be modernized for new windmills. That real estate is already occupied by windmills which are actually of very low capacity. The best tracts of land where the wind is at very high velocity. The wind side is also going to increase. We are substantially increasing. We have already increased our electron beam capability. There is one more machine coming in. The amount of solar cables which we can produce, we have doubled the solar cable production between FY 2024 and FY 2025.
We will have the capability to double that from FY 2025 as we go into FY 2027. All round, you will see all categories where we will have ability to expand. We are also bringing in some new equipment on the cable side to be able to make much higher volume of cables that go into the Indian defense, where you need very specialized type of equipment to make those cables. We expect that over the next few years, defense spending is not only increasing, but the indigenization content is also increasing. That includes the cables which we are going to supply. All round, we see on the cable side the growth. We don't want to miss out on these opportunities.
We are expanding our capacity at least one year ahead of time because it's very difficult in a growth phase like this to time exactly when the growth will happen. All varieties of cables, clearly, we have got expansion in place. The only area where we are not expanding is in optical fiber, the optical fiber side, because there we see that the OFC cable demand is actually quite poor at this stage. Our concentration is on everything other than OFC.
Right. My second question, sir, again, on the U.S. business, though there's a very good comeback and resurgence in U.S. business, which has happened for us this quarter. You highlighted that there's been some overhang. I wanted to understand what is still bothering us. Will it be lending cost, which because of tariffs might impact our competitiveness? Because you highlighted that the business in the U.S. is pretty strong, data centers plus the macro demand there. You highlighted that the massive imports are still happening in the U.S. for cables and conductors. What is one thing?
Sorry, I am cutting you there. There are three data points that I mentioned, which is the best information that we have as of today. One is that there is an over $20 billion annual import that is taking place and is likely to continue. The second thing is that the key exporting countries into the U.S., India, even at the moment, is not at a disadvantage relative to Mexico, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Indonesia. In that sense, also we are not so badly off. Hopefully, the tariffs will be down lower than what they are.
The third thing is that the U.S. is importing aluminum, and that at the moment is under a special Section 232, where the tariff is at 25%. And that Section 232 is based on products which need to be manufactured in the U.S. in the long run and is of strategic importance. If you look at these data points, it does not point towards us having, I mean, I am sure that we are very optimistic that things should settle down. You may find a little disruption in the short term, but hopefully, it will iron itself out over time.
Right. Finally, any guidance you would like to give for EBITDA per ton growth, or maybe also for the oil business, EBITDA per scale, any guidance you would like to give for FY 2026?
In terms of oil division, the volume growth we are looking is about 6%-8%. And EBITDA guidance is about INR 5,000-6,000 per KL. In the conductor division, we are looking at a volume growth of about 10% and EBITDA per metric ton of INR 30,000 plus tailwinds on a 12-month basis. In the case of cable business, it will be value growth of 25%, and then EBITDA range of 10%-12% on a 12-month basis.
Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for taking my question.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Jayesh Sundar from Axis Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. This is Nitin here from Axis Mutual Fund. Sir, just one question on the non-U.S. business. You articulated your context, I think, over the last two, three quarters that competition is fairly increasing from the Chinese players in the non-U.S. market. How are you thinking about it? Because it's also a very decent piece, which is coming down quarter by quarter. Is there something like backward integration or localization or putting a subassembly there that helps you? I just want to know how, as a promoter, you're thinking about it. Will it structurally keep being a perennial issue? It keeps coming down only now. There is no chance of recovering back. How should one think about this business, if you can throw some light on the non-U.S. part?
The thing is, with the Chinese government policies, we have seen in the past also at times they have kind of subsidized the aluminum and steel in China. That has given the advantage at that time.
These things go in cycles and cannot be predicted. We do not want to kind of do any backward integration or any such thing in China because then, again, we may not be able to have that sustainable advantage. It is all dependent on how the Chinese government policy is from time to time.
On the contrary, we are looking at, and we had mentioned this in the previous earnings call as well, and we have gone ahead to appoint advisors to look at manufacturing in the U.S. That exercise is actually going on because not only do you have a tariff and a potential tariff overhang, but there are certain projects which are being executed, and there are certain public utilities in the U.S. who want to buy only U.S. manufactured products because of the way in which they get compensated, etc., etc.
It's a very complex sort of network in the U.S. There are customers who pay a premium for immediate delivery, very short notice delivery. That exercise is going on. Rather than looking at backward integrating and doing anything in China, we are looking more in terms of wanting to produce examined production in the United States, given that market is such a large market and will continue to be a large market over the next decade or so.
The CapEx which you have announced, does that entail a picture of putting something in the U.S. as well, or will that be a fresh investment that we should look for this year? Announcement should come, or how are you thinking about that?
This current investment is all the investment that's going into our existing manufacturing plants in India, as well as there's a piece in the UAE for our oil business, where we are putting in some new tanker jams stuff over there. It's all in our existing manufacturing facilities, plus this greenfield facility coming up in the cable side. The U.S. will be something that will be over and above this. The growth number would be also different. There will be additional growth to support that investment.
Okay. Now, why I'm asking this, sir? Sorry for again pressing on this, because there's a recent agreement that happened with China as well, the FTA between the U.S. and China. Can you throw some light because now the articles are not out yet, which product gets about 25% or a 30% duty versus us?
Can you throw some light if when we send a conductor from here to the U.S. versus what China now will send to the U.S., is the duty arbitrage has become very narrowed down or still the arbitrage is about 20%?
If you want to understand, what has happened is that everything has reverted back with a 10% delta to what was existing. There is an additional duty of 10% which is put on every single country, correct? Right. In the case of China, that additional is 13% because previously, the delta between others and China was 20%. What the Trump administration has done is they have recalibrated back to whatever deltas were there with a 10% increase. That is what is happening in this 90-day period.
I guess the Chinese 90-day period is a little bit different than the rest of the world because we were from maybe 9th of April onwards to put this in place. Otherwise, the economics, I don't think that there's anything more favorable going to come into China relative to India. That delta will probably remain. The signaling is that it's going to remain at 20%.
Basically, I was asking this only that going forward, the U.S. itself will become very important for us, and non-U.S. will now face a perennial issue unless you feel that you set up a plant in the U.S., which can cater to the other parts of the world at a less cost.
No, no, no. The plant in the U.S. will look at catering to the U.S., and especially those utilities which buy U.S. products and which work on short deliveries. What Sunny has mentioned is that even in the past, the Chinese have done this. In the last 15 years, this is the third time that they are subsidizing by this time a lot more, by 8%-12%. That adds up in multiple billions of dollars. The way they do that is they subsidize the price of the metal for our industry. There are other ways of subsidizing for other industries. That bill becomes a massive bill over a period of time. After doing it for X number of months or up to a year or a year and a half, they pull that off. Again, you have a period where the Chinese people then are not in a position to compete as much.
We believe that these sort of cycles of subsidy are there to meet a certain objective, and when the bill becomes too hefty, then it gets reduced. We have seen that happen twice before in the last 15 years, at least.
I'll also add there that a lot of this is because the Chinese government has tried to help their manufacturers who earlier had a decent market in the U.S. and then suddenly, they were out of the U.S. market. To help them to penetrate the rest of the market, this kind of subsidy is being given. If suppose things may at some point not be so difficult for the Chinese manufacturers in the U.S. market, then it is possible that subsidy may also get reduced out. We cannot say for sure what will happen exactly as of today.
This is one of the reasons we were given to understand from people that we have been talking to in China.
Got it. Sir, this last question on the guidance of EBITDA per ton, I mean, this has become a very difficult number for us to predict. Given the INR 30,000 per ton kind of guidance next year plus the tailwind, what Ramesh said, generally, you know your order book of conductors from the very first day. It's just when what gets executed becomes difficult, right, to assess in which quarter. In the current order backlog, is it safe to assume that 40%-45% is still premium? At that premium level, this guidance of INR 30,000 is given on an annualized basis.
Yeah. The way guidance has been given is based on an estimated number for 12 months. A lot of it, we do not have an order book as of now, but it is more of a medium-term guidance that we have given because the pending order book that we have also has some deliveries that may fall beyond FY 2027. About 20% of the pending order book are those deliveries that can happen after FY 2026. At the same time, we also get a lot of orders during the quarter, and that has to be executed in the quarter. Typically, it is very difficult to estimate an EBITDA for our line of business, and we have always been saying that we need to look at this EBITDA on a 12-monthly basis rather than on a quarterly basis.
Based on the premiumization and the mix changes that we have worked out, we feel that anytime it could be anywhere about INR 30,000 plus tailwinds that depends on the kind of product mix and the geography mix that we do.
You see, last year also there has been, because of the election year and things, a lot of HPLS and upgrade projects did not happen. We are also in the process of various tenders have come up, etc., etc. If these premium things keep on happening, then as you saw, we had said that if you take a five-year period or an average, we were talking about INR 25,000-INR 26,000, then we upgraded to INR 27,000-INR 28,000. Now, with the mix of products and what we see, we can further upgrade it to INR 30,000.
As more and more time passes by on the execution of these things and the visibility on these things, I guess we would be in a position to then keep revising the guidance. INR 30,000 is a guidance which, as Ramesh said, it's a medium-term guidance that you can work on.
Got it. That's very helpful, team. All the very best.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sagar Dhawan from Valuequest. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Question on the domestic conductors business. We've seen a strong growth in the domestic business, about 64% growth in FY 2025. Just wanted to understand going into FY 2026, what is the outlook and what could be the drivers for growth to be able to grow from a very good growth we've seen in this year already in the domestic conductors business?
We look at the growth thing more from a blended totality point of view. The domestic business has grown 64%. What we look at, what gives a higher EBITDA per metric ton, whether it be domestic or exports. Based on this thing and also based on our factory utilization, we end up executing the orders. I would say that we will more be guided with the blended growth rather than looking at domestic and exports for the division.
Understood. Just a follow-up. Just based on the demand environment that you see in the domestic market today, would it be fair to assume that next year as well, there could be a double-digit sort of a growth or any number purely on the domestic growth outlook?
Yeah. The market outlook looks positive with the kind of transformation capacity and transmission line that is needed. Based on various documents that is there for 2030 till 2030 onwards, the market outlook is positive. Our growth will largely depend on where the higher margin per metric ton is there. Accordingly, we'll allocate capacity either to domestic or export business based on the profitability that we get out of the order.
I may just add to Ramesh's like, we've grown by this percentage when you can, as you saw in the opening remarks, that the transmission network has grown only by 2%, the transmission line network, because of various right-of-way issues, this election period. There's been a lot of manpower shortage also. During that whole election period, there was big manpower shortage, etc.
If these plans are executed and we can see that several very, very mega solar projects are coming up, solar wind hybrids are coming up, if the pace of the transmission line additions start increasing, then you will see even further levels of growth. That is one of the reasons why we have been quite aggressive in terms of wanting to add the CapEx in place so that we can proactively get after the demand rather than react to the demand.
Understood. Sir, just in terms of the CapEx that you are adding on the conductor side, you said INR 300 crore. How much of capacity are we adding in terms of metric tons per year by this CapEx?
It would be about 10% will get added. So about 25,000 tons. But this 25,000 tons is capable of being made for all the premium-type products as well. You have HPLS, you have CPC, all of those high-end products can be made with this 25,000 ton expansion.
Got it. One last question from my side. What would be our market share in the domestic conventional conductors market and in the AL-59, if you have the numbers offhand?
It is about 25% or so.
Understood. Thanks. Thanks for taking my question.
It would be much higher than the HPLS and those premium side. Yeah.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Maulik Patel from Equirus. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. Kushal bhai, I never seen you so much flash in the last 15 years of tracking you. Given that you are spending close to INR 1,300 crore over the next 18 months, almost 50% higher than what your current growth block is at, and you have summarized your optimism that various government schemes and the CapEx is driving that, I have just one question on that. How are you going to fund this CapEx of INR 1,300 crore? Because we have never done this kind of a CapEx in such a short period of time over the last, I mean, in our history.
We have just had discussions at the Board level itself on that. The plan is to do INR 650 crore coming from our equity and INR 650 crore coming from a long-term debt. We will use a one-to-one equity debt combination to fund this.
Got it. Got it. The second question is that in terms of, see, look at that when you had hardly any margin in cable 10-12 years back. Now you are almost INR 5,000 crore of top line and 10%-11% margin. Cable was hardly contributing anything to the operating profit at that point of time, and now almost 30% +. In a way that, and the way your CapEx plan is that you want to bring cable from INR 5,000 crore to INR 10,000 crore. Are we going to see more and more of a cable company in the future than the other two? Obviously, today, the conductor EBITDA is relatively on the higher side and probably sustained for next one or two years. Eventually, in the next three to four years, the mix will be much more towards cable and less towards other two businesses.
Is that what the way you think about the business?
I think, Maulik, our position is that we want to support all the three businesses, be agnostic to supporting one business more versus the other. I think we did that raise, the equity raise in November of 2023, simply because we wanted a stronger balance sheet in place to allow all the businesses to grow on their own merit. Whereas we see that the cable business has the largest addressable market, and as a consequence, as we are also growing from strength to strength in terms of all the specialty products, specialty applications, the conductor business itself, being 50% of our revenue, is also growing at a fairly rapid pace. All over the world, transmission lines have to be added. We are equally bullish on both of those businesses.
Within the oil business, the transformer oil business is also growing at double digits. It's the other lubricant pieces which are growing relatively slower. We are quite happy with that. Let it be at whatever it is, we're still growing more than the market is doing. I don't think, and as a management, I don't think we are looking at supporting one business more than the other. We would like to support each of the businesses on its own merit. As long as it makes economic sense to invest in that and grow it, we are going ahead and doing it. You will see the cable forming a larger percentage of the total revenue because it is going to grow at a faster pace than conductors. The oil business will probably be at the slowest pace of the three.
Already in FY 2026, you will find the cable business being larger than the specialty oil business in terms of revenue.
No, I think profit it is already much larger than the TSO segment. Just one question on the balance sheet. What is the acceptance on the books at the end of FY 2025, if any?
It is about INR 3,500 crore, Maulik.
We have remained same, right? I think compared to the last year, the number has been pretty much stagnant.
Yeah. Because we have deployed a lot of cash into cash purchases, the available profit we have been deploying into cash purchases. That is where. As we know. Also, the earlier statement that when we talked about the funding of that, half of it would be debt and half of it would actually be internal accruals, just instead of equity.
Equity actually meant already the internal accruals or internal cash that we have on our books. Currently, all this cash has been used to get purchases on cash basis. Therefore, as you rightly said, that acceptance level has been same. Once we deploy money of this cash into the CapEx, we will see a higher acceptance going forward.
We will see the higher number on the acceptance side next financial year.
Yeah. As the money will get deployed into CapEx, that is where it will get funded from.
You will also see in the actual working capital management that we have grown the business and reduced the number of days that we use the cash. It is almost down by a week, seven to eight days. The net working capital is also down seven to eight days.
Got it. Got it. Just last question, if you allow me to. How is this? We heard earlier that some of these EPC players like KEC and even the one which has gone into and set up with the conductor plant, right? Own capital consumption. I think Adani was looking to, and they acquired Diamond Power, and they are also adding it. Why do you see this new conductor capacity is coming up in the domestic market? Do you think that that will have any kind of bearing on longer-term conductor margin? Because you have, I would say, I've seen that you keep adding your value-added products. You keep investing in R&D and keep coming out with a new product, which has been your edge over the last seven, eight years. That has reduced the volatility in the conductor margin to a large extent.
These upcoming capacities, are there more for the traditional conductor? Are any there in for the specialist, I mean, premium conductor?
The thing is, Maulik, that the kind of investment which is being made, for example, KEC in conductors, they will produce the conventional type of conductors, ACSR, AL-59. I think we will not only produce that, and I've produced it quite efficiently because we are fully integrated, including doing our own alloying, etc. They have to now develop their alloying technology for AL-59. We have developed the alloying technology not only for AL-59, but we do gap conductors, ACSS, ACCC. We do a whole range of copper products. Next year, our copper business will be over INR 3,000 crore, which will be, if you just look at the cable companies, we'll be in the top 10 cable companies on copper.
Not even 10, maybe the fifth or sixth largest. If you just look at the copper that's being produced on the conductor side. The business has evolved quite a lot. We do a lot of specialized EPC as well which supports these premium products. I think for us, we are playing an infinite game. We are interested in increasing our own product mix, figuring out what are the products which, so you've got people like the large developers who are also bidding on PVCB lines to evacuate power from some of the generation sources that they have. We are in dialogue with them, saying that, "Why are you looking at only conventional conductors?
We can offer you a full range of other products which can reduce your losses, your cost of ownership, etc. The game that we are playing is now completely moved away from just producing a conventional conductor. The same thing is there on the cable side. On the cable side, if you want to get into renewable energy, on the renewable energy, there is a certain Indian standard. There is a much higher standard that exists in Australia and in Europe. There is also a higher U.S. standard that exists in the United States. We are making products of all those standards. We are now pitching those products in. We supply thousands of kilometers to these countries. Why don't you look at upgrading in India to those standards?
Because they're all meant for being able to weather the weather, temperature fluctuations, the hostility in terms of rain, sunshine, all those things. Water. You see, there's a lot of stuff going into deserts and probably into the runoff, Kutch, all those areas. So that's all salty terrain or desert terrain. So there are different types of products which can come up to better manage the application. Because these panels are supposed to last for 35, 40 years. We've just launched a new, we were the first to do Apar Anusakti in the country, the EBEM house wire. Now, today, you have RR Cable has come in, Phenolex has come in, Polycab has come in, VGuard has come in. Everybody is trying to follow. We've come up with an upgraded product that instead of carrying 50% more current, carries 100% more current.
Instead of having 50 allies, it has 70 allies. And it's a zero halogen product, so it's less toxic in case an accident does take place. I think we are constantly in a position to keep upgrading, and that's the game that we want to play. Whether Brilla enters this or whether you have Adani entering the wires business, I think there's enough and more business available for players like us to continue to innovate and sell in different segments and different geographies.
What kind of a growth you delivered in FY 2025 on the Anusakti side?
About 37% for the growth.
That makes close to around INR 350 crore at the top line on that?
Yeah. About INR 375 crore. Yeah.
Got it. Thanks. Thanks, Kushal bhai. Thanks, Ramesh. Thanks for taking my questions. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nikhil from Kizuna Wealth. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Congratulations on the great set of numbers. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. My first question is, in our port of call, there were a lot of companies that were currently running due to the U.S. tariffs. Have we seen such a scenario in our clients? Second, now with this so much tariff pause and that Q1, Q2, are we expecting that company will pile up the inventory and then we will see any trace of inventory deinventarization space again?
Sorry, your first question we did not understand. Can you repeat?
In Q4, we have seen a lot of companies front-running the tariffs. A lot of companies started building up their inventory. Have we seen the same phenomenon? Secondly, now with the tariff pause, are companies still building the inventory? Are we seeing inventories being built up and then we will see a phase of deinventarization in Q2 or Q3?
It is a good question. I do not think, Nikhil, that is not what we are seeing at our end. We have a significant amount of our shipments which are going in directly to EPC players and project sites. Those are against specific requirements which are there. We are not really seeing a big inventory buildup. Also, many import distributors wanted to place much larger orders on us, but we had already booked out our capacity. We were not in a position to take on. We did not have any spare capacity. Everything was already allocated and orders were booked. Those are getting executed.
The kind of client mix which we are looking at, because now we've got a bunch of, we've got a sales team on the ground and working with manufacturing reps, we are no longer looking at being overly dependent on an import distributor. They are the ones who actually stock up. They also sell a lot of cables in their own brand name through multi-listing in the U.S. Whereas APAR focuses to sell also a lot of APAR-branded products with approvals from end customers. I think for us, the overhang is just basically in terms of the tariff and clarity on that so that people can price their product correctly. Our sense is that hopefully it will get resolved within the period of these 90 days.
Then, as the business, the new orders start coming in, they'll come in from a much larger set of customers. We are not worried about any front-loading or front-running, etc., or an inventory overhang in that sense. At least as of now, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Th at's great to hear. That's absolutely great to hear. My second question is, how were the inquiries in the month of April and May? Now, as you said, that China is providing 8%-12% subsidiary. Are you expecting a price war to the U.S. market too?
The serious buyers have actually been quite wary of wanting to sign things up. The U.S.-China relationship, as you can see, has been extremely volatile.
The 90-day truce, as I mentioned just a few minutes earlier, which is there, is keeping the same delta as was existing before. We do not see anything substantially changing as such. In fact, the Chinese competition is hurting us in non-U.S. markets. We are not so worried about China in the U.S. market. We have to compete with them in other non-U.S. markets.
Okay. That is great to hear, sir. Now, as we have upgraded our guidance from INR 28,500 EBITDA per ton to INR 30,000 EBITDA per ton, are we assuming that EBITDA per ton has bottomed out? Now, there is only upward trajectory going forward.
We have been saying this earlier also. We need to look at it on a 12-month basis. That is how we have given this guidance. There will be some quarters where EBITDA is low, some quarters EBITDA is high. Because of the nature of the business, it's such that it's all make-to-order business. Therefore, we need to look at a long-term 12-month or even beyond that to get a good feel of the numbers.
As things are, as you have premiumization being played, as you move from conventional ACSR to AL-59, all that, so fundamentally, the product mix should drive it upward.
Okay. That's great to hear, sir. My last question is on the new Trump administration is not the fan of renewable energy. They are more into cold things. Have we seen any kind of clients having lower confidence in the renewable energy capability or something like that?
The point of view that we have been able to gather through various customers and whoever we are in touch with, including developers in the U.S., is that solar and solar, including the energy storage, the ESS system, is the cheapest form of energy available to add in the shortest period of time. The solar side of the business is going to continue. You have more and more U.S. manufacturing also being set up. Vary, for example, has set up U.S. manufacturing. I think other manufacturers from India are also exporting panels to the U.S. The solar side looks very much intact. The wind is a mixed bag. There are certain corridors in the U.S. which are extremely windy and can carry a high plant load factor. Those corridors, you can continue to develop.
What is likely to stop is the subsidy that is going on on the wind side. Offshore. And the offshore wind, which was being built only with subsidies, pretty much, for making it viable, that is to be forgotten as far as the U.S. is concerned. We do not see the renewable story completely ending. We see the subsidy story ending. The renewable that's actually able to stand and expand based on its own economics will continue to expand. See, today, the permitting in the U.S. is very, very tedious. Whatever direct information we have, it takes 10-12 years to get permitting to build a transmission line in the U.S. versus three years in India. There are similar issues there for building power plants and power sources as well.
You will see solar addition happening because that is the fastest way of being able to actually get power. If you add it along with the battery storage capacity, then you are able to deliver power 24/ 7.
Okay, sir. That's great to hear, sir. That's it from my side. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vimox Shah from Goyan Luxy Fintech Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. And congrats for the good set of numbers. Most of the questions you have answered. I have just one follow-up question. In the last phone call, you were mentioning that companies are supplying the cables to the major data centers, like you were mentioning today as well, like Microsoft, right? You were excluding the liquid cooling solution, right, but making a test site.
Has there been any progress on this development?
We, at the moment, have not made—we've developed a product here. We are still looking at how to test market it, etc. Because the liquid electric, first of all, most of the data centers today do not use liquid. There are a few companies overseas that have been supplied as a system. We have not really made any progress on that front. We are still working, knocking on doors, and trying to figure out how we can get a trial for that to happen. In the meantime, the cables which are being supplied are being supplied basically in the substation and substation to connecting to the data center equipment. That side of the business is what we are covering today.
Got it. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Avnish Tiwari from Vaikarya. Please go ahead.
Hi. Am I audible?
Yes.
Y es.
My first question is, what is the tariff on your U.S. exports you are doing for the cables? Say in May, you are paying compared to what were you paying in February or March. And the delta which you are experiencing now, how is it being shared between you and your end customers, whether it is importer or whether it's an actual customer in the US?
The basic duty remains intact. The basic duty that we were paying on cables is 4.9%. For argument's sake, you can take it as 5%. Now, whatever has been put here is a reciprocal tariff. That applies over and above.
The 10% or 26% or 46% or whatever it is, is over and above the basic tariff which is in place. Currently, it is at 5% plus 10%.
This additional 10%, how are you sharing it between importer and yourself?
There are different contracts with the customers. Some contracts are on FOB, some contracts are on DDP. Some are deliveries before July 9th. Some are deliveries after July 9th. In some cases, we are talking to some of the customers who are agreeing to share a part of the duty. Those all mix and combinations are actually happening at the moment.
All the FOBs will be no problem. The DDPs, we've had to sit and negotiate with customers. There's been some portions where there's been a combination. We've picked up part of it. Customers have picked up part of it.
Some of the contractors have allowed us to pass the whole thing on. So overall, we won't see some major impact, at least for this 10% tariff phase.
Okay. That's good to hear. So basically, the dominating part is FOB or where most of the pain is shared by the importer? You only take part of it, a small part of it.
Yeah. So bulk of the business which we are executing right now is in that bracket.
Right. The second question is that what is the dominating types of cables you export to the U.S.? Are these less than 1,000 volts or higher, more than 1,000 volts? And what is the key raw material in these cables? Aluminum or copper?
So the bulk of what we export is all aluminum alloy. There is a special alloy which is used in the United States, which is an 8,000 series aluminum alloy. We produce our alloy ourselves, the rods, that is, from our rolling mills in the conductor division. They are aged and then made into conductors and then finally insulated to make the cables. There is a whole set in our website. If you go and see, you will see a set of UL-approved products. Those are the products which are being manufactured and shipped to the U.S. There are a few copper products as well, which is a relatively very small volume. The bulk of the volume is aluminum alloy based.
These copper products would be cables of less than 1,000 or more than 1,000 volts?
The copper products which are being exported right now are basically medium voltage cables which are with copper in them. We are not really exporting lower-end copper because the U.S. has zero duty on import of copper even today. There is a 25% duty on import of aluminum. Aluminum has been a strategic manufacturer in the U.S., whereas copper is something that even today, the government believes that it should be imported in the U.S. without tariff. Our whole strategy has been focused more around products that are aluminum-based, where APAR has always had a strength.
The less than 1,000 volts, are they typically using copper or aluminum if you want to do it in the future?
The U.S. is largely an aluminum market, aluminum alloy market.
Less than 1,000? No, no. I am talking about normal cables.
Less than 1,000, above 1,000, only special applications you use copper over there. Otherwise, predominantly aluminum.
Got it. Mostly it's the aluminum market then. Okay.
Yes.
Last question I have is that you talked about Mexico also having the duty. My understanding was most of these cables are under USMCA in Mexico. Is it like you're talking about mostly alloy, which is not part of the USMCA, or do you think cables are also not part of USMCA and they are directly duty, except for Mexico?
Right now, from our understanding, unless and until Mexico comes up with anything different, they are also facing the same tariff situation as India is. The minimum tariff is 10%. What do we want to bring into the U.S.? Unless there is a very specific FTA in place, which is like the first one that they signed is with the U.K.
There's nobody else that they signed anything specifically with as of now. We are in the same boat as Mexico as of today.
Okay. Your understanding that these cables or alloy you are exporting are not part of USMCA in Mexico?
Yeah. I mean, from whatever we hear from our customers, they're saying that there's nothing advantageous currently in Mexico other than the short delivery cycle that's there.
Okay. Great. Thank you very much. This is the last question that I can question. How much extra either margins at the contribution level or EBITDA level you make or better working capital comes if that's the same cable you are selling to U.S. export versus in In dia?
The U.S. is very tricky to just put a number because it's a combination of FOB and DDP. It is not a number that I would like to hazard any guess. It keeps changing depending on who wants to buy FOB versus on a DDP basis. EPC players normally want it on a DDP basis, but actual users are very happy to buy it on an FOB basis. They have the full transparency of trade.
Right. You make higher margin in U.S. export versus India sales. Is that clear to understand?
It depends on different products and mixes. On an Apple-to-Apple basis, we cannot actually compare this because different products go for the U.S. market and different products are there for the Indian market. We do not actually give out geography-wise margins for the region.
Okay. Great. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amit Anwani from PL Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Just a follow-up. Is it possible to share the annual U.S. contribution overall and as well as within conductors and cables this year, FY 2025?
So the margins we don't share the—it's almost—
Are you talking about the revenue that we've done?
Yes, yes. Revenue contribution.
Overall, U.S. would be slightly on a higher single-digit compared to the total consolidated turnover.
And sir, for cables and conductors?
We have done about INR 1,000 crore in cables, about INR 1,000 crore in cables and
INR 600 crore.
INR 600 crore on conductors. About INR 1,600 crore approximately overall. That's why Amit is thinking about—
How this grown versus last year? INR 1,600 crore on what base? FY 2024?
We have given that in our corporate presentation. It was slightly degrown still as compared to last year on an annual basis. Sequentially, things have improved. Every quarter has been better than the earlier quarter when it comes to the U.S. sales.
Sure, sure. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Raj from Arjef Partners. Please go ahead.
Hello. Am I audible?
Yes, yes. Please go ahead.
Thanks. Can I start on the Outlook part? For FY 2026, you are intending to grow, and
I could not hear that. Can you please repeat? Sorry, your line is breaking up. We are not able to hear you clearly.
Am I audible now?
Yes.
Am I audible now?
Yes, yes.
For FY 2026 outlook, I just skipped your comment. Can you repeat it again?
Yes. Under oil division, we are giving a top-line volume growth of 6%-8%. EBITDA level margin is INR 5,000-INR 6,000 per kg. Cable division top-line value growth 25%. EBITDA percentage 10%-12%. Conductor division volume growth 10%. EBITDA per metric ton INR 30,000 plus. Steel mills.
INR 30,000 plus?
Steel mills.
All right, all right. Also, can you repeat on the CapEx part? How much? In what division?
About INR 1,300 crore of CapEx, about INR 200 crore coming from oil division, INR 300 crore in the conductor division, and INR 800 crore in cable division.
Okay. How much time will it take for all these three to come on stream?
15-18 months.
Sorry? 15 to?
18 months.
15-18 months. All right. How much will be your expanded capacity? Percentage term?
It will grow for the conductor division. It may grow by about 10% in terms of capacity. For the cable, as you already mentioned, once the entire plant is commissioned, then it will have capacity to generate revenue of about INR 10,000 crore once it is fully commissioned.
All right. For the oil part?
The oil, we don't really bring, there's no real capacity culture other than on the auto industry side. Today, we run two shifts, and we can just add a third shift in place. This investment is going in largely in terms of building a storage facility in the port, in JNPT, and expanding our storage capability in Mumbai as well in the UAE plant. Right now, almost 24 million liters of storage space we have on a rental basis from third party in Mumbai. That is going to get collapsed into about 30 million-35 million liters storage, which we are building out in JNPT. That also has a big productivity boost on the supply chain side because the ship will directly be able to unload from a ship into those tanks.
All right. Understood, sir. Okay, sir. Thanks. All the best.
Okay.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mayank Bhandari from Asian Market Securities. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, just wanted a few data points if you could provide. In the cables revenue, how much would be the B2C revenue? How much would be the defense telecom cable revenue, EHV revenue, and of course, railways revenue?
We do not give out a full detailed revenue breakup for the division, but I can tell you about this. B2C is about INR 375 crore that I have mentioned earlier. Apart from that, the revenue coming from each sales, that is something we do not give out.
Have you started supplying to defense telecom?
No, you mean defense telecom or telecom? For us, there are two separate verticals. One is defense, and the other one is telecom, so it depends.
Cables that we are supplying to the defense.
Yeah. That is something that is ongoing. We would see that in the future as more and more localization is taking place, the volume should start increasing. As I mentioned in my earlier comment, that we are bringing in additional equipment as well, which can help produce larger quantities of some of the sophisticated cables and lines for the Indian Navy particularly.
What about EHV, sir? Are we doing any business in EHV?
As we complete our expansion in the cable side, currently, we are able to produce up to 66 kV. This will go up to 220 kV that we will be able to produce.
Now, does this contribute any revenue in FY 2025, EHV?
No. Because by the time the capacity goes in place and gets implemented, then post that, we will start hunting, we will start working on getting approval. You will see that revenue not coming in FY 2026 at all.
You may start seeing a small portion coming in FY 2027, but a larger portion then coming in FY28. In the meantime, that same equipment is capable of producing up to 220, so you will produce the other voltage levels until those approvals come in.
What about the wind cables?
Wind is produced on totally different equipment where we are also looking at doubling our capacity. Those are elastomeric cables or rubber cables. That production is also going to be doubled in the same time frame. That is part of the INR 800 crore CapEx.
No, I am just checking if we would give the contribution of the renewables cable revenue in the total cable revenue right now.
We are not giving these detailed breakups as such. I mean, most— Go ahead.
Yeah. Last, I mean, what is the interest on the interest-bearing acceptances in FY 2025? Interest number.
It's about 6.5%, so it ranges from 6.5%-7.5% over a period of time.
6.5%-7.5%. No, I'm asking the absolute number out of the total interest expense.
Out of the total interest, you see about 90% would be on the acceptances only because we have very less debt on the balance sheet. Most of it would be out of the acceptance only.
Last year, FY 2024, this number was around INR 240 crore.
Yeah. Last part, almost everything would be out of—we have just one ECB loan on the balance sheet. Apart from that, everything else is actually the interest on the acceptances only. That disclosure is there in the balance sheet, the interest part on the ECB loan.
Okay. Any guidance on FY 2026 for the interest expense?
It will go in line with the volume of the business as all of this is relating to acceptances. As the volume of the business grows, the interest cost will go up. Also, interest cost depends on the price of aluminum and copper because it's on the value of that purchase. Depending on the price of the metal, this fluctuates.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. As there are no further questions from the participants, I now hand the conference over to Mr. Kushal Desai for closing comments.
Yeah. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for participating in our Q4 and financially our FY 2025 earnings call. Just to summarize, we do have a few overhangs like the U.S. tariff situation, which should hopefully get clarity and sorted out in the next few weeks.
Overall, as a management, we continue to remain very bullish on our business. We are putting in INR 1,300 crore of CapEx, which will go in over the next 12- 15 months and then get commissioned thereafter. This is in addition to INR 500 crore which we put in in FY 2025. All the three businesses are poised to be able to grow. The product ranges also, as well as the premiumization of product and customers, is something that we are working on. Whereas it's always difficult in our business to predict quarter by quarter, if you take a medium-term view, we continue to remain very bullish on the growth of the business. Once again, thank you so much for attending our call, and goodbye.
Thank you. On behalf of APAR Industries Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect the line.