Good evening, all of you, and thanks for joining us to discuss Asian Paints Q4 and FY23 earnings. I'm Sunila Martis from the investor relations team. Together with my colleague, Arun, we are happy to welcome all of you here. We have on the dais with us today our MD and CEO, Mr. Amit Syngle. We also have with us Mr. R. J. Jeyamurugan, our CFO and Company Secretary. We have with us Mr. Parag Rane, AVP Finance. I would now like to invite Amit for his opening comments.
Good evening to everyone. It's a pleasure to kind of meet you after a long time physically one on one, and we are all here for looking at the quarter four to the financial year 23 results in terms of what have been there. Just want to take you through a small presentation in terms of what the whole area is all about. As you're all aware, this is something which is the core value in terms of what we look at, delivering joy since 1942. We have completed more than 80 years now in terms of looking at beautifying, preserving, and transforming all spaces and objects and bringing happiness to the world. This is something which is the core in terms of what we really believe as we kind of go forward.
When we look at in terms of the overall results, I think it's been a strong performance which has come in the year in quarter four and also in the entire financial year 2023, as we kind of look at. Overall numbers, when we look at from a point of view of strong double-digit volume growth of about 16% in the quarter which comes in and for the overall value is closer to about 13% in terms of what we delivered. Strong double-digit numbers coming in there.
This translates to the entire year, financial year 2023, when we look a strong number of about 14% in terms of volume, and this is despite the fact that quarter 3 was a bit flat in terms of what we saw, and a very, very strong value number of about 20%, which comes in. While it has some component of a price increases which were taken overall, but a strong performance, coming in in terms of the overall area of the product mix and other areas in terms of what we have kind of looked at. What is heartening here is, both quarter 4 and the financial year 2023, if you look at the CAGR numbers, they are very, very healthy in terms of what you see.
CAGR numbers both on volume and value are strong, healthy numbers which we take. I think this just shows the fact that the organization has been focusing very clearly in terms of not only the value growths, but the volume growths over a 3-year period, which have been very, very strong in terms of how they have come in. This is another chart which reflects the same thing in terms of looking at the volume growth over a 3-year on a CAGR basis. If you look at possibly the trajectory, again, very strong, double-digit numbers coming from us. This is very clear, focusing the fact that the whole area of growth, which is led by volumes in a strong manner, comes in there, and this translates obviously to strong value growth as well over a 3-year period to that extent.
This is quite a consistent performance. If you are able to see the numbers that way, the performance becomes quite consistent in terms of the way we have been growing over a period of time. Some of the areas in terms of what have been typically the growth drivers as we kind of see it, in our set in quarter four, we looked at both T1, T2 cities and the T3, T4 cities growing almost at the same pace, which is really heartening because what you look at in the environment and when you look at FMCGs largely, we have been looking at, you know, the smaller cities not doing so well to that extent over the last two, three quarters to that extent.
For us, I think, the smaller cities also, which is a very, very strong kind of source of our growth, has done quite well over a period of time to that extent. There are clearly double-digit, you know, CAGR numbers which are coming across both rural and urban centers to that extent. When we look at the mix in the quarter, again, the mix is quite good. Largely, we have grown at double-digit numbers, both with respect to the economy, premium, and the luxury set of products. Overall, the double-digit kind of story continues with respect to the product mix there. Obviously, some categories have grown even faster in a double-digit mode.
When we look at some of the upgradation emulsions, when we look at waterproofing, look at some segments of flooring, admixtures, they have really kind of gone very well for us and have outstripped even the kind of double-digit growth which have been across the category to that extent. As I said, premium and luxury products have been also growing quite well. Today we have really gained inroads in the premium luxury segment of wood finishes in a very strong manner, and that is something which is a strong footprint which has kind of come in. Across our sales, when we have seen this quarter. From a point of view of our expansion, the distribution keeps on expanding at a very, very strong pace.
Overall, we are speaking of a distribution expansion to about almost 1.5 lakh retail points which are there, which is literally comparable to any, you know, FMCG kind of a representation which takes place across the network. We are very clear that this is something which is a strategy which continues so that we are making the product available to more and more customers easily across various clusters in various cities. One of the other big differentiators which we see ourselves from the competition is the whole servicing footprint. We have something which is called the Safe Painting Service and a related service which is called the Trusted Contractor Service. These two services put together have been doing exceedingly well.
We are touching about 1.7 lakh customers throughout the country with more than 600 towns kind of enabling this service across. We feel this is the globally, the world's largest service footprint any coatings company has to that extent. It's decidedly a very, very big kind of a differentiator in terms of what we see. You must remember that very difficult to kind of really match a servicing footprint of any company for any competition to kind of come in to take it. This kind of really gets us in the homes of the customers in a very, very strong manner. When we look at projects institutions, this is the B2B business. This again has been growing at a very, very strong pace.
We find ourselves not only growing in the builder and the cooperative housing sector, which is there, but very strongly in two sectors where we are focused, which is the factories and the government sector. The government sector has been really exponentially growing with us because of the government spending on infrastructure, which is taking place. Our entire waterproofing range, which consists of membranes and admixtures and some of the other waterproofing kind of products which come in, which are in the repair range, have really kind of straddled very strongly in this sector, giving us really unprecedented growth in terms of what we have seen over the last 3 years. These growths really continue to kind of give us a very, very so-strong footprint.
Much so that now, Asian Paints, is the number 1 player in terms of waterproofing as we, as far as we look at from a retail point of view in a very strong manner. Overall, we see that the innovation has been a very, very strong footprint in terms of how the company has been driving the sales over the last 7 years. We have launched about 250 new products in the market, and these are not products which are, just products which are variants which are coming, products which are really getting a new customer proposition, which is very clear. Today, I strongly going ahead, we have almost applied for 106 patents over some of these products which we are launching in the market.
A very strong innovation pillar which is kind of invoked. Today these products kind of contribute to more than 10% to the total revenue, which is a very healthy figure in terms of what we see, which kind of just showcases the innovation potential in terms of what we are harnessing as we are kind of going ahead. In addition, all of you are aware, we have been kind of making you aware that strong kind of work happening with respect to capacity expansion in terms of what we have kind of taken.
We have already committed a very, very strong CapEx, which is there to some of the brownfields, some of the new projects, and also to the backward integration projects which we have announced with respect to cement or our VAM VA kind of emulsion facilities which have been announced, which you are all aware of. I think in all, very, very strong indicators which give the health of the organization in terms of the way we are kind of proceeding and looking at going ahead. In addition, we continue to kind of really be the voice of the industry with respect to our color and material trends which we introduce. We reach out to more than 7,500 architectural firms across the country.
We talk of this preposition, which is very, very strong with respect to what are the kind of trends which we see which are coming. These trends are based on socioeconomic kind of movements which are happening, which reflect on lifestyle trends and therefore the whole area of decor and color trends strongly. A very strong, this thing we have introduced this year, almost four stories which are strong in trends and the color of the year is called Silver Escapade in terms of what comes in in terms of our launch, which is there. We also have lots of campaigns as part of our marketing initiatives in terms of what we launch.
The bottom of the pyramid is a strong area in terms of where we keep on working, in terms of really converting the customer from the unorganized to the branded smart emulsions in a very strong manner. Some campaigns like this you would have been able to see which are very, very strong, which are coming. Not only in this thing, our campaigns with respect to our luxe categories, which are Royale Glitz and some of the other premium products which we launched, have also done very, very well in terms of what we have been kind of taking in. Today, we can easily say that the share of voice in media is something which outstrips the competition, and therefore we don't shy away from really spending good amount of monies from an advertising mix point of view.
Even in quarter four, you would see that our spends in terms of the advertising marketing has been much higher in terms of looking at really propelling the business as we kind of go ahead. Our foray into home decor is something which is doing extremely well. Today, we operate in so many categories apart from bath, kitchen. We have introduced the whole area of kitchen, doors, windows, furnishing, and furniture, and so many other categories, rugs and so on, so forth, which have come, so that we have become almost a, you know, an integrated player in terms of the home decor offerings. We have now, literally by the April end, we have about 50 stores operational across the country. This is something which is a very, very strong initiative, which is kind of coming.
Today, this business is about 4% to 4.5% of our total business. We have already announced that by March of 2026, we will look at this home decor business contributing to about 8% to 10% of our total architectural business going forward. This is a substantial kind of investment and strong focus with respect to home decor, because this literally complements the painting category in a very strong manner because it is all about the same home where you are kind of selling and entering into the customer from a point of view of a decor life cycle of the customer in a strong manner. We've also kind of looked at partnering the customer in terms of making a beautiful home for the customer in a strong manner.
We have an end-to-end design and execution service which is there, which is called the Beautiful Homes Service. Now, this service is a first-of-a-kind experience coupled with digital visualizations and professional execution, which kind of comes in. In its own way, it is something which is doing extremely well. We are today very, very strongly focusing on this service. This service is now the number three service at an India level in terms of what we look as an end-to-end kind of service. In the paint sector, you don't have any other company which offers this kind of a service which really happens. This is another differentiator over the, say, painting service, which I had highlighted earlier in terms of what we are speaking of. As one part of it, kitchen and bath is a strong business today.
This is about INR 800 crore overall as a business in terms of what we look in terms of the overall kitchen plus bath, which kind of comes in. Quarter four has not been very, very strong with respect to the kitchen and bath overall performance because of the sluggish market demand overall in terms of what we saw in the category. When we look at the overall year, bath has done relatively well at about 15% growth and also registered a small profit in terms of what has come in terms of looking at the bottom line. As far as kitchen is concerned, the kitchen market is consisting of two things.
One is modular kitchens, which has done extremely well for us, another is components and hardware business, which has not done too well to that extent, and that has contributed to possibly a negative kind of degrowth happening in terms of the quarter four. Also at a yearly level, the kitchen business, because of the components, has not done well and also registered a small loss. What we are very confident that this is something which is what we should be able to overcome as we kind of go ahead, because the whole demand for this category seems to be definitely on, this is something which we are focusing very, very strongly. When we look at overall the other two categories, if you remember, we acquired two companies.
One was White Teak, which was in the decorative lighting business, and the other was the Weatherseal, which was into the uPVC doors and windows. Both the businesses this year have really taken off very, very strongly. Both Q4 has done very well in both the categories at an yearly level. We have literally kind of doubled the numbers to INR 109 crores in lighting with a very strong profitability coming there. Also in terms of the uPVC doors and windows, where we have taken the category almost from about INR 12 crores to about INR 25 crores overall in terms of what we have registered. Therefore, both the categories seem to be doing very well. In lighting, we are now the number one player in terms of the decorative lighting as it kind of really has panned out for us.
These two categories doing extremely well in terms of the home décor. Coming quickly to the overall international business, this is the footprint in terms of what you see, where we are kind of represented all across in terms of how we have been kind of functioning over the years. When we look at the global environment, there have been, as you are aware, some challenges which are there in Lanka. We also have a lot of challenges with respect to devaluation of currency, which is happening in areas like Egypt, Bangladesh, Lanka and so on, so forth, to that extent.
If I look at basically the Q4, obviously, you know, what has stood out is performances in Middle East and Africa, where, you know, the markets have done overall well to that extent. Asia has been a little bit down because of, one, Lanka, and secondly, Nepal, because of the political environment there, has not been doing too well in terms of what we see. Overall, while it shows a degrowth in the global business, but if you look at from a constant currency terms, the growth is to the extent of about almost 9%-10% in terms of what has taken. It's only because of the devaluation of the currency that you see a degrowth which is there to that extent of 3%.
ss has done quite well from a constant currency term. The profitability has been the highlight in global. If you look at from an overall yearly perspective, the profits have been very, very strong in terms of almost registering profits of about 158 crores. Therefore, we see that this is something which is strong in terms of the way we have bounced back in terms of the overall global environment as we see in terms of this year, how it has panned out. That's the global business for you. Coming to the industrial business, this has been really a strong kind of performance in terms of what we see of both the businesses. One is what we call the auto OE business
It is the PPG AP business, and the other is basically the general industrial business, which is the APPG business to that extent. If you look at from a revenues point of view, both Q4 has done quite well in terms of both the businesses to that extent. The highlight has been the year performance, which you look, which is in double-digit growth, which is really coming out in terms of almost 27%, 26% growth, which are there to that extent in terms of the top line. Both businesses have done very well. Also in the area of PBT, if you see the PBT margins have been very, very strong in terms of the growth which have kind of come in. Industrial business is a highlight.
In APPG, we have crossed INR 1,000 crores for the first time. The business has doubled in about 3 years' time. It's been a very, very strong performance in terms of overall the industrial business, in terms of how we have performed this year and both from top line and bottom line, this is really a category which has done extremely well overall. If you look at gross margins. Gross margins have been going up steadily, thanks to basically the fact that there has been softening of the prices. There has been a little bit of deflation in terms of looking at prices across coming down. Material costs are a very, very strong component of our business.
When you look at possibly the gross margins on the Q4, we are almost at about 43%, which is one of the highest gross margins in terms of what we are registering. This is a very, very strong movement which you are seeing. I think there was a worry amongst a lot of you in terms of saying, where are the margins going to that extent? I think it is clearly dependent in terms of some of the inflation which we saw in the past to that extent, and a very, very strong recovery with respect to gross margins in quarter four is something which you see is clearly reflected here in terms of our journey there to that extent.
What we saw in this quarter four was, you know, about a 4% kind of a deflation which was seen in this quarter overall. Coming to the standalone results. Again, as I said, for quarter four, the numbers are very clear, where the value growth is about 12%, the volume growth is about 16% overall. The PBTIT numbers and the PBT numbers are very, very strong. Both, quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year, the margins have substantially improved overall to that extent, which is there. The PAT growths are pretty healthy of, in quarter four, about 37% on a standalone business in terms of what we see.
On a yearly level, again, if you look at it, overall, a 20% kind of a top line revenue, which kind of comes in with a 14% volume growth. PBIT margins have gone up. PBT margins have also gone up from a point of view of yearly perspective, and the PAT growth is to the extent of about 31% overall. Strong numbers overall for both Q4 as well as for the entire year to that extent. That is something which is really quite positive for the overall business as we kind of see it. When we look at the consolidated numbers, obviously the consolidated numbers get dominated by the standalone numbers to that extent overall.
We see that at consolidated level, again, the overall top line number for quarter four is about 11%, compared to a 13% of a standalone, which is there to that extent. I think again, the good point is that the PBTIT margins have gone up in quarter four to that extent, and the PAT is a very healthy 44% kind of an increase, aided to some extent by the global profitability, which has kind of come in quarter four as well, as well as in the year to that extent. When we look at on a yearly basis, again, the top line numbers are very healthy to about 19%, so just about 1 percentage down from the standalone numbers of 20% in terms of what you saw.
Again, I think the PBTIT and the PBT margins have grown on as we compare with the year-over-year basis to that extent. The PAT is again a very healthy 36% in terms of what you see overall coming in. I think both set of numbers pretty healthy in terms of what we see. I think the heartening part is that the overall margins now are in the range in terms of what we have been talking about overall in terms of where we want it to be as we kind of go ahead to that extent. I think that is something which is very, very strong in terms of how it has all about come in. There are some exceptional items in terms of the overall list.
This is something which we wanted to highlight. There is some kind of, you know, the expenses which are kind of really coming because of the ongoing problem in Sri Lanka in terms of the literal economic crisis. There is something which we have taken a impairment as a loss. The numbers are not too big, but that is something which we have taken. These are the two numbers which have come as an exception, which we thought we'll just highlight for you.
In summary, when we look at-I think some of the great highlights is very clear that we have now touched an INR 30,000 crore mark in terms of net sales at a standalone level, which is a very, very strong number. This is 3 times the nearest competitor in India. That generally shows the size which is there. I must remind you that today the overall market size of Paints is closer to about INR 70,000 crore-about INR 75,000 crore, out of which this becomes a substantial segment in terms of what we are operating in. We are seeing double-digit volume and value growth of Decorative business for the year, that is something which is very strong because you can easily see that the base numbers are not small numbers. The base are very, very strong numbers which are coming in there.
To grow on that on double digits is no mean task in terms of what we have kind of taken on. Overall, committed to the Home Decor revenue, we have said that 8%-10% will take and a very clear focus on this category. As I said, this business complements the existing coatings business in a very, very strong manner. The non-auto industrial business, which is a general industrial business for protective coatings and otherwise, is something which has crossed the landmark INR 1,000 crores, and it has doubled the business in 3 years with very strong profitability also rising to that extent, which is a very good and positive sign in terms of showing the ingress of Asian Paints, not only from an architectural point of view, but also from an industrial point of view in a strong manner.
In global, as I said, while the numbers were looking weak, if you look at from a constant currency terms, we still have a double-digit growth, which we have been able to take. This is because of the fact that there are devaluations of the currency happening in Egypt, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, as you are kind of aware of to that extent. I think the overall growth trajectory on constant currency terms is pretty strong in terms of what we see. The other thing which is there is that, one, definitely there has been some softening of prices.
As an organization, we focus on operational efficiencies very strongly and also look at formulation and sourcing efficiencies, which is a large component which we try to bring, you know, a strong kind of efficiency in our overall kind of input cost to that extent. That has also contributed to our margin increase, which is both quarter-on-quarter, as well as what we see from a point of view of an year-on-year basis to that extent. These are strong kind of signals which are possibly coming in terms of giving a hint in terms of what lies ahead as we kind of go ahead. In terms of, obviously the dividend payout, there has been a constant strong upward journey in terms of what you see.
I think if you look at from an industry standard, the payouts are very, very strong in terms of what we are making. This time the payout is almost about 60% kind of a payout, which is happening, which kind of just shows the direction of the sense that we would like to reward the shareholders in terms of the good performance which has come in from a profitability point of view as we see this year kind of holding up. The other thing which is very clear is, we are deeply kind of intertwined in the ESG this year. We started this process of sustainability long back, but we have kind of now taken the ESG road very, very strongly.
In all these areas of environment, social, and governance, I think there are very, very strong initiatives and imperatives which have been put so that we are able to kind of really, as a leader, take very clear lead to that extent of market. For a lot of you who do not know, we today have almost RE, which is the energy which comes in, almost about close to about 60%-65% is what is generated by us to that extent for our plants. We are water positive, which means that the amount of water we take from the ground, we generate more water per se to that extent. I think this goes as part of our ESG framework. I think governance is of the highest standards which we try to build into that extent.
Therefore, today, you will see that as the annual report comes in, that all these elements are intertwined with the business in terms of going ahead, and it's not like it's a separate initiative. If you are able to turn the ESG to kind of show the way of profitability, I think that is something which really matters in terms of looking what we want to kind of do. As I said, freshwater replenishment in terms of the numbers are very strong. Similarly, the renewable electricity, the numbers are going very clear, and our targets which we have taken for 2030 are pretty aggressive in terms of this thing.
The new initiative of recycled material in packaging is another strong initiative which is being taken, which kind of shows that as a leader, we are willing to kind of really put our money behind in terms of these issues and look at kind of letting into the business growth as we kind of go ahead. Obviously, I'm sure a lot of questions will come on in terms of how we see the outlook overall in terms of looking at how we want to kind of grow. I think the GDP numbers which have come out are pretty strong in terms of what is there. We are all aware that when we look at paint, we speak of one and a half times the growth of the GDP as a indicative direction in terms of what is there.
We feel for the year, definitely, I think the growth numbers look strong. We are focused on growth in a very, very strong manner as an organization to go forward. This growth comes not only from the point of view of just competition or the unorganized sector, it also comes from the overall increasing the per capita consumption of paint in the industry. That as a leader, we have taken a task on ourselves. Also getting into newer categories like we have kind of fueled the whole story in waterproofing in a very big manner. I think our focus on growth will kind of remain, and we are looking positive with respect to how the year would pan out from a point of view of overall growth.
Obviously in terms of the monsoon forecast, there have been some question marks raised in terms of the El Niño and so on, so forth to that extent. That is clearly what affects the agrarian economy in terms of initiating the rural demand. We will look at possibly coming to more definitive analysis on that as the year progresses, and we will know shortly in June and July what's happening to monsoons. I think overall, we don't see an outlier here in terms of something which can upset the apple cart going forward to that extent. Inflation, overall raw material prices appear stable.
We might not see too many high peaks or low peaks kind of coming to that extent, therefore, largely they might remain benign with some spurts here and there, depending on some geopolitical conditions which might develop overall, but fairly kind of appear stable as a structure in terms of going forward. We focus on our energies on architectural business, which anyway is the core. Along with that, growing the home decor business, growing the industrial business has been strong objectives with whatever we can do with respect to even the global business.
I think, focusing on all around work as an organization in terms of what we want to kind of really target and grow, especially geographies of Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Egypt is something which we would kind of look at in terms of our international footprint going forward. That's all, and, thank you very much for listening intently to this. We are now open to questions. Thank you.
Thank you for the presentation, Mr. Amit Syngle. Good evening, everyone. We now begin the Q&A session for the Quarter Four Investor Conference. We have live audience with us at the venue and participants joining on Zoom video platform and teleconferencing as well. Request the live audience to please raise your hands to ask questions to the panelists. We will pass the mics to you. Kindly introduce yourself first and ask your question. Please limit your questions to only 2 due to time constraint. Requesting all participants joined via Zoom video platform to adhere to the following guidelines. Please use the Raise Hand feature to ask a question to the panelists. Kindly unmute when given a chance to ask a question. Please say your name and company name before asking your question. All participants joined via teleconferencing, please dial star one to ask questions.
We first begin with Q&A session with the live audience at the venue. We request you to stand and ask your questions. Please begin with your name and company name.
Yeah, thanks. This is Abneesh here from Nuvama. Two questions. First is on home decor. When I see the strong performance of the real estate, when I see that's extremely strong. When I see your numbers in Ess Ess and Sleek, you have pointed out that the retail demand is weak. Where is the disconnect there? Second, after so many years, the margins in both businesses are extremely weak, almost no profitability. What is the reason and what can change in three years? Because your guidance of doubling from 4 to 5 to 8 to 10 means that it will be extremely strong growth in terms of revenues because your core business is also growing in double digits. Where is the confidence coming from? Because if I see Ess Ess and Sleek, we are not getting the confidence.
Of course, you have now diversified far beyond that. Is the confidence coming from those segments?
You're right. What we have seen definitely is a strong activity in the housing sector overall, which is there, which is reflected from a point of view for even the projects B2B business which is coming in. If you look at closely the last two years, the kitchen and the bath business has done well. It has grown at almost about 30% overall growth to that extent, which is there. This year, the bath business overall has grown at about 15% and has given us almost about an INR 4 crores kind of profit over that number. Yes, the profits are lesser, but you must appreciate the fact that today our share in the business of bath is in single digits overall in terms of what we see.
We are competing with a larger amount of giants there in terms of what's working, be it a Jaquar, a Parryware, a Cera, Hindware, a Kohler kind of companies which are operating in terms of that segment. Therefore, today I think, we are kind of trying, testing out various strategies in terms of what can take us there. Similarly in kitchen, the kitchen business has grown by about 17%, which is a modular kitchen business. It's the components business which has a certain percentage in the total business, which has come down because it's like a hardware business in terms of what you see overall to that extent. The modular kitchen business is in profits to that extent. It's the components which has kind of come down.
How we see these two businesses flaring up and what is our confidence coming from is our chain of stores, which we have kind of put up now. This chain of stores has come in the last 3 years now, and this is called the Beautiful Homes Stores. As we spoke of, about 50 stores are there now operating in April, and we kind of want to take this number to about 100 stores over a period of next 2 years as we kind of look at. We think that this is going to be a very big galvanizing factor where we are able to offer decor under one roof very strongly and able to attract the customer in a strong manner and really make the customer aware of the Asian Paints prowess in, together in terms of the overall home decor area to that extent.
I think we believe that, given the fact that we are the challenger brand with respect to both the bath and the kitchen to that extent, I think, we are now looking more in control in terms of going forward. Our basis of growing from 4% to an 8% contribution arises from the fact that, we definitely look at our chain of stores kind of contributing in a sizable manner. Along with the categories of fabrics, lighting, furniture, fitted furniture also coming in very, very strongly to kind of amp up the volumes overall to that extent.
Sure. My second question is on waterproofing. You have become number 1 in the retail waterproofing. I want to understand when you had entered this space say 6, 7 years back, that time what was the construct of the industry? Who were the key players? What have you done different? Who would have lost market share, if you could clarify there. Second is, when I see the B2B, obviously Pidilite is the big daddy there. Now that you have cracked the retail part, would you go now B2B also in a significant manner over the next 5 years? Pidilite has now entered paints, whole interior paints, would you see that as a big long-term competition? Is it a bigger competition than Grasim from a structural point of view? Because Grasim currently is not present in most of the adjacencies.
I like the way you ask multiple questions in one question. But, I think, when we look at from the point of view of waterproofing, we started this initiative about seven years back and we started from literally scratch and we developed indigenous technology in terms of looking at developing this business very, very strongly. In retail, the larger players which were, you know, there in the market was Roff, Sika, Fosroc and Pidilite to that extent. Over a period of time, what we see, it's not about just the share in terms of what we have gained from them. It's about we have really enlarged the overall market by reaching out to more homes, making the awareness of waterproofing very, very strong.
The whole waterproofing area has been a boon for us because earlier the complaints on paint was related to the paint to that extent, but now what we is very clearly happening is that we are able to take care of the dampness and the leakages because of the waterproofing coming in. Therefore, what we see is that we have really exploded the retail market and left the existing players far behind in retail because they were just servicing the demand and they were not doing anything in terms of inflating the demand to that extent. Therefore, we think that we are now far, far ahead of any other player in the retail market for sure to that extent.
That has also given credence because of our very, very strong distribution footprint in terms of what we have used very, very effectively in terms of really reaching out waterproofing to every small town in the country to that extent. That's one. Our prowess in retail is more than any other brand because they operate through a distributor structure. We operate directly with the retailers and therefore we are able to kind of really train, teach our retailers to kind of do much more business in a very strong manner. As far as projects is concerned, I want to tell you that we are almost the number three player in projects as well because there are very different set of players in terms of projects which are dealing. There are some multinationals there in terms of what is there to that extent overall.
I would say that we are now a very significant player in projects as well to that extent. As I said, we are entered admixtures, we have entered the repair range, we have entered the membranes range, and today we offer every other products. There are almost about 200 products which we are offering in the waterproofing category, which are technical products in the projects regime. I would say that it is another matter of 2 years, we would become tops in the projects market as well. That's the overall waterproofing answer. The second area is with respect to Pidilite's entry in terms of the overall paint market.
As I see it, you know, overall, while they were in some segments of the paint, some of the exterior segments in terms of what they were present, they were a bit present in wood finishes as form of Eka and so on and so forth. I think this is a more range completion exercise, which I see from them coming in. The products are at a very, very price economy level to that extent. There is nothing outstanding about the products which kind of come in. What we feel is that it's just a range completion which is happening where they want to touch the market much before others do in terms of the new players coming into that extent.
We don't see any threat happening there at all to that extent, because that segment is something which possibly is, we are entrenched very, very strongly, and we don't see any disruption coming in that to that extent. We feel that possibly they might disrupt some of the unorganized sector which is there to that extent because the price parity in terms of what they're offering is at a very low level, and they want to utilize their distribution structure to kind of really reach out to some of the dealers who would ask for paint coming in to that extent. I don't see it's a very significant kind of initiative which could kind of really ruffle the paint market anyways.
Sure. Thank you.
Hi sir. Percy Panthaky from IIFL. Two questions from my side. Firstly, on the margins. This quarter margins have already exceeded 21%. Your earlier guidance was that you would try and maintain around 18%-20%. Do you think in light of these results, your guidance is conservative and actually you will actually do more than that going ahead? That's my first question, sir.
Okay. I think, we are still maintaining the same guidance. We are not kind of really looking at, saying that the margins can go up or whatever, because we still feel that, the environment is not fully stabilized. Today, there is an element of, large amount of deflation happening across, inflation happening across the world to that extent. The demand conditions are all topsy-turvy in terms of what we are seeing. We do not know in terms of from a point of view of overall price stability.
While we have said that we are apprehending, at least for the first half of the year, some price stability should happen, we really do not know in terms of which way the overall, you know, the raw material prices can go because you yourself have seen the amount of jumps which we are seeing in crude. You know, it kind of varies from something like $74-$82 kind of a thing in two, three days time kind of a thing. We do not really know in terms of which way it goes. We would like to kind of still see it for another six months to see in terms of how the entire thing moves before we kind of really look at changing our guidance overall.
We are very confident that we should remain in this bracket as we kind of go ahead.
Sir, just if I assume hypothetically, if the prices remain stable where they are, if the input prices remain stable where they are, will the EBITDA margins also remain at Q4 levels? You think that they would still sort of go down towards your 18%-20% band because you would probably increase rebates or you would pass on prices or increase ad spend or whatever other reason?
As I see it is very clear that we want to look at seeing that we continuously kind of inflate the demand in the market to that extent. Today, the kind of overall price increases taken over the last 1.5 years have been very, very high to that extent. We will still observe the market in terms of saying that if we need to pass on some of the thing and take a decrease in certain prices and really rationalize some of the areas as we kind of go ahead, is something which we will see which can really affect possibly from the margin level we are sitting in Q4 to that extent. That is why I said we would like to remain in that 18%-20% band as a guidance overall.
We are also looking at really taking on the area overall in terms of our marketing and advertising, in terms of what we want to do, in terms of the some of the newer segments, in terms of what we are doing to that extent. I think on a safer side, we should kind of really look at being in that 18%-20% range as we kind of go ahead.
All right, sir. Second question is, as you've given some sort of guidance on the home decor business, that it's around 4%. You want to take it to about 8.5%. Can you give some similar kind of idea on waterproofing? What percentage of sales currently is waterproofing and how much it can be 3 years down the line?
Overall, we started waterproofing from a zero base, just for your information, as I said. Today, if you look at from the size of the overall waterproofing market, when we overall looked at possibly the size of the waterproofing market was just about something like about INR 6,000 crore-INR 7,000 crore in terms of what is there. We feel that now the size of the waterproofing market has literally kind of gone up, given our ingress in the market in a very, very strong manner to that extent. Therefore, what we see is definitely from a point of view of retail, we are very, very strongly contributing to the overall business, which comes in retail in a very strong manner and also in projects.
It's very difficult to put a percentage to that because the overall segment itself, growth is very, very strong in terms of how it is kind of going forward to that extent.
Currently would like waterproofing be close to a double digit kind of contribution to your own sales?
Definitely.
Okay.
That's all for me. Thanks.
Percy, just one clarification. I heard you mentioning 21%, what kind of a margin? The band of 18%-20% that we state as our range, our targeted range, the way we look at it is PBDIT before other income as a % of sales and not sales plus operating income. To just get that straight, and that is the expectation that we are seeing.
Hi.
Hi, sir. This is Mihir from Nomura. My first question is on 4Q. Is there any element of postponed sales from earlier quarters that were weak in the 4Q? If you can give any color on how April and May is shaping up, is the volume growth, the strong volume growth that we've seen in the 4Q continuing in the, you know, April/May months?
How we see it is that there is no element of postponement, definitely. I think Q4 is a pure sales of Q4 in terms of what we see as kind of come in to that extent. As we had said earlier, Q3, given the fact that it was a longer Diwali base, which was there to that extent, and that is why possibly the Q3 growths were a little bit lesser because of the shorter Diwali season this year, and the demand not really picking up to that extent. Literally, the Diwali sales literally dies at that point of time. It doesn't really carry into the next quarter to that extent. As we look at the current environment, I think overall, the demand conditions are good in terms of what we are seeing it.
We see that going forward, possibly for this quarter, definitely, I think in terms of we are really aiming at a double-digit volume growth going forward.
Thank you. My second question is a little medium to longer term on distribution. Actually, you know, I recollect that in the 9 months call you'd mentioned that, you know, you added a similar number of dealers or distribute or reach what you had done in the previous year in FY22. In 9 months, you added a similar number. Can you share what you've done for the full year? What is the kind of distribution or dealer reach that we are thinking about, you know, for the next year and year after?
What we see is that, I think in the year gone by, we would have added almost anywhere between 15,000-20,000 dealer points going forward. Going forward, we are aiming at anywhere between 10,000-15,000 retail points coming up in the coming year as well. That is going to be a strong kind of aim in terms of what we would like to do. The larger focus still remains in terms of the smaller cities and the suburbs of the bigger cities in terms of what's really coming in, because we truly look at it from a little bit of a cluster approach in terms of where we would like to kind of have an outlet in terms of going forward.
Therefore, possibly another 10,000-15,000 retail outlets in terms of definitely we are looking at.
Sir, one last question on the unorganized players. I believe that over the period of last couple of years, we've seen a lot of formalization happening. We've seen very strong volume growths coming. We see that volume growth continuing. Can you talk a bit on the unorganized players, the regional players? How much have they shrunk? You know, to what extent are they pained? Do you expect them to come back with the, you know, raw material prices now getting better? You know, your raw material prices cooling off, your gross margin is getting better. Can one expect the unorganized players to come back in a big way?
Definitely, I think what we have seen is in the first two years that the unorganized players had their volumes compressed because of their supply chains being not so efficient as the bigger players to that extent. The raw material scenario was also causing quite a bit of havoc with the kind of inflation in terms of what we were seeing. In the last year, what we have seen is that there is some stabilization happening with respect to their supply chains, and people are no longer regional. They are still kind of becoming national because of the ease of their supply chains now happening to that extent. We have seen, possibly, you know, we used to divide the unorganized sector as 30% value and 70% as organized to that extent.
Maybe I think the last years, we would have seen some movement of 4% or 5%, kind of decrease which is there. Our belief is that possibly given the price advantage they still have and the fact that they are strong regional entities to that extent and are expanding, possibly, I think the ratio will come back literally to what it was earlier to that extent in terms of they covering the ground to the 3%-5% which they have lost out.
Thank you very much, sir. All the very best.
Hi, sir. This is Shilpa Rathi from Morgan Stanley. Sir, thanks for giving the idea on the total TAM for the industry, which is at INR 70,000 crores. How should we think of the growth rate over the next five years for the industry? You just alluded to the fact that unorganized could go back to 35% in the near term, how should we think of that number in the next five years?
We are pegging the number going to almost like about INR 1 lakh crores over the five years. The growth rates are definitely ranging between 10%-12% kind of a zone as we kind of go ahead to that extent. I think this is an industry which will definitely grow. Given the fact that, we see possibly a stable government, we see government spending strongly. We also see a GDP of anywhere between 6%-7%, which is remaining, and to that extent, which will continue to kind of fuel this market going forward to that extent. In terms of shares, I think the shares would kind of remain in this zone because the smaller players, MSMEs, come with their own strength to that extent.
I think it is always good to have the regional players possibly catering to the market in a strong manner. They have large government supports also in terms of some of the pricing taxation structures which kind of come into that extent. We see that, from a point of view of economy products in that kind of a segment, they will kind of continue to kind of be in that market to that extent. We definitely see this industry going to about INR 1 lakh crore as we kind of go forward.
Second question was, you know, with respect to your presentation, where you have mentioned that we will pursue an aggressive strategy. I just wanted to understand the definition of aggressive. Is it around expanding into adjacencies? Is it around being more aggressive with respect to distribution? Do we expect some price cuts coming through because we are getting into a deflationary mode? If you could just expand on that.
Aggressive means everything what you said. Okay? We would like to possibly, as I said, it's not only architectural we are looking at in terms of really, seeing that we have differential strategies to grow across the country, whether it is in distribution, whether it is with respect to supply chain, whether it is with respect to our new products or whether it is in terms of looking at the premium luxury segments in terms of what we are launching or even waterproofing segment in terms of what is there to that extent. When it comes to industrial, I've already spoken that there has been very big aggression, which we have been kind of taking both from a general industrial and the automotive, industrial kind of a zone.
Home decor, I have indicated the kind of trajectory we want to kind of follow from where we are to where we want to go to by 2026 to that extent. Similarly, I think, in global, we would like to kind of see that it's not only in terms of the existing countries, if there is any opportunity which comes, we will be aggressive in terms of going into a new country as well, in terms of looking at going forward. Our aggression continues from a point of view of even the whole area of really putting strengths in the organization so that we are able to kind of supplement and kind of retain our margins strongly.
That is why our backward integration strategy is very, very important in terms of what we are looking, so that possibly as we kind of go ahead, we are able to kind of take recourse from the fact that we are adding more and more margins to our material consumption story in a very big way. I think aggressive literally means that it is in all areas. Yes, please. Can someone give him the mic? First row, please.
Hi, Amit and team. Thanks for the opportunity and congratulations for good set of numbers. Just 2 observation. In this quarter, you have reported a 16% volume growth and also margins has expanded. If I give the benefit and I just wanted to understand, is this margin expansion is primarily because of the falling raw material prices and packaging material, or there is a mix improvement? If your volume growth is higher than your revenue growth, I was suspecting the volume growth is driven by the more economic emulsions. There are 2 questions. What is the quality of margin which you are trying to gather? Second, therefore, if you can give a broad number for domestic Decorative in terms of premium emulsions, economic emulsions and low-end emulsions. Broad number.
I know you will be hesitant to give me the exact number, but if you can help me on that.
Overall, when we look at, you know, the margin story, you can sit. You know, it kind of really revolves around three areas. One is the material prices softening, which is very clear. We have seen a 4% kind of a deflation in prices, which we have seen in Q4 very clearly. The second thing is that a strong imperative on formulation and sourcing efficiencies, which is also giving us a strength in terms of really making our material prices lower to that extent, given the fact that we are working on formulation efficiencies and sourcing efficiencies.
The third area is what we have seen is that the overall mix has been decent because while the premium and the luxury segments have also grown by double digits to that extent, we have seen some of the other segments which have grown far higher than that double digit on an outlier kind of a perspective overall. I think it's a combination of the mix being good, but some of the other products kind of really being an outlier kind of products overall coming in. From a point of view of premium luxury, we see that possibly premium luxury are in double digit. But the, you know, the smart emulsions, economy emulsions would be slightly higher than the premium luxury in terms of what they would have contributed into the margins.
Would you comment on FY23? What would be the broad mix if I check with you on the luxury premium?
Our intention obviously is that we stay ahead on a very healthy product mix going forward because the whole game of getting the margins in that band is dependent on the product mix in terms of the way you operate. Obviously, in terms of it depends on the inflation in terms of prices are very strongly because the material prices contribute to a substantial chunk in terms of our overall kind of price structure as we kind of look at. Going forward, I think we are very clear that we are going on a very, very balanced kind of a growth where we look at furthering the luxury and the premium sectors very, very strongly.
What you must understand is that if you look at the entire structure of really the product profiles, the bottom of the pyramid and the middle segment premium is a large contributor in terms of the overall structure, in terms of consumption, which really happens. While you would like to kind of continue to grow at the luxury and the premium level, you can't ignore the premium and the bottom end in terms of what comes in terms of growth. As I said, we will try to balance in terms of seeing that we are able to kind of take a very, very structured, balanced kind of an approach where we grow possibly in a balanced manner across the luxury premium and the economy segments.
My second question on the industrial part, the growth rates were lower, however, you have shown the good margin expansion. Is it a function that it's a being competitive business, you have not dropped the prices, and now you'll be forced to drop the prices in industrial and the growth will come back?
We have not dropped the prices. If you see the profitability, the profitability has improved of both the businesses to that extent. In fact, we have been one of the strong proponents in terms of taking the price increases very, very strongly whenever we felt that we need to take price increases because of inflation. I think, where the kind of imperative has come in is that we have looked at increasing our reach from a point of view of some key account customers. We have looked at depth going in the customers and focused in terms of the technical servicing part in a very, very strong manner.
We've also invoked our entire JV with PPG Industries and introduced some very, very superior products in the market, which are actually at the high end of the market, but they give very, very strong performance when it comes to kind of the technical features they offer to that extent. Whether it is from a point of view of, say, a heat resisting paint or whether it is from a point of view of a epoxy or a chlorinated rubber in terms of what we offer in the market to that extent. I think it's a combination of superior technical service, the reach, the depth of quality of customers in terms of what we are doing, and also very, very strong differentiated products which we are now invoking in the market in a very strong way.
My last question on the CapEx and capacity. Can you outline next 15 months which are the capacity which will get operational and what are the CapEx we are looking FY24?
Okay. You want to answer that?
Next year our CapEx plan in terms of spends should be in the region of about INR 2,000 odd crores, INR 2,000-INR 2,300 odd crores. The utilizations, the way we see it today, we are somewhere around the 75%-78% mark. The brownfield expansions which are ongoing, right? We have a host of them ongoing. I think a couple of them will definitely come on stream as we go into FY 2024. Then the balance ones beyond that year. That's how we are seeing it.
Parag, just you can help me, what KL capacity which will get added in FY 24?
In FY 24, we would probably add roughly about 2.5 lakh kilograms to the capacity.
Thank you and all the best.
Hi sir. Avi here from Macquarie.
You can sit and ask. It's okay.
Thank you, sir. Sir, two questions. I wanted to just better understand the margin comment. Now, was there any one-off in this quarter in terms of inventory low, you know, because there's no low cost inventory. Logically, it seems that you've done a change in formulation. Volume growth remains healthy, so demand environment doesn't seem to be the concern, at least even in your comments. Is this more a comment from a medium-term perspective that, you know, over time demand might come off and hence we need to pass on? Is that why you're arguing for margins to come down from current levels? What exactly is the driver for it, that?
Overall, what we see is that, you should see that we have taken certain price increases over a period of time. What has happened is that we have not looked at decreasing any prices in this quarter. The higher price increases continued to that extent.
Mm-hmm.
Okay? We had a scenario of material prices softening to the extent of about 4% happening. Over that, coupled with that, we had this whole area of the operational efficiencies and also the purchase sourcing efficiencies kind of really coming in strongly because you must appreciate that when you look at the overall environment, the suppliers themselves are quite confused in terms of what's happening because the U.S. and China economies, which are big consumption hubs, they are going northwards from a point of view of not knowing in terms of really, and the overall inventories are coming down to that extent. Therefore, the whole area of negotiation with the large vendors is becoming very strong in terms of procuring some efficiencies in terms of what you are able to kind of do.
Given the fact that we never lowered our prices to that extent, and we were going and our product mix is quite decent in terms of what we've been able to achieve, that has really kind of given us the supplement in terms of the margins which you see to that extent. Which is why I commented earlier that we would not bank in terms of just saying that this thing will stay forever because, 1, you do not know in terms of what are the material specific movements. For example, today we find that TiO2 is kind of going higher and some other solvents are coming possibly lower to that extent. You do not know the exact mix of the raw materials in terms of which way they will move to that extent.
Also the fact that we are sensing that if today there are certain segments where customers are finding it a little bit more expensive to kind of really buy that product and there is some down trading happening to that extent, we might look at possibly really adjusting some prices going forward to that extent. The impact of this quarter is very clearly because of the price increases which we have kind of gotten and the material prices going down, better negotiation of prices, all that has kind of really given us this kind of a margin and the product mix being still strong.
Sir, in your framework, if I understand it correctly, the way you are saying is I will essentially ensure a particular revenue growth should be there. We will not necessarily focus on margins. Margins will be maintained in that band, but I would look to drive as much revenue growth as I can, that would be the thought process.
See-
The flow through to EBITDA may not be in margin, but will be more in revenue.
Yeah. See, we believe in balanced growth. If you have seen, last 3 years also, when I showed you the volume trajectory. We believe in not only driving only value, but we think that volume is a very, very essential, kind of parameter which gives health to the market in a very, very strong way in terms of how you want to kind of really look at growing the market, because the only value component can come because of price increases as well, to that extent. Volume is the true indicator in terms of the health, in terms of how the overall product profiles are going. We believe in a balanced, profitable growth. I would not like to compromise one on the other side to that extent.
I think that's the right way to kind of look at it, because in a growing market, possibly, you know, you can't be siding with one side and saying that I don't want to kind of really look at the other side to that extent. Therefore, I think the way to go is a balanced, profitable growth in terms of what we are looking at.
Perfect, sir. The second bit is on the VAE project in particular. Now, you know, if you could give us some international examples where VAE is used, because one of the pushbacks that tends to come in is that, this can be similar to, at some point of time, if you remember, there was something called nanotechnology, which was being argued that could be a new thing in paints. You know, how do we understand the way, is whether it's a fad? Why do you think it's a very big change? Any international examples, if you could share on where VAE is being used or give us to better appreciate this technology. Thank you, sir.
Today, if you look at VAE is used across the world. If you take even a company like Sherwin-Williams, which is the largest paint player in the world today, they have a substantial usage of VAE, which they kind of use because VAE is essentially a very progressive emulsion because it is, one, environment friendly, it is low on VOC, it has literally no offensive smell which kind of comes in. Therefore, it is the emulsion of the future in terms of what we see. Today, large quantities of this emulsion are imported into India because there are only four or five players across the world who make it.
Where our game comes in very strongly is that the moment we look at making this emulsion in India, to that extent, it kind of gives us very, very strong leverage from the point of view of costings and margins, which we are able to derive in our products to that extent. Which gives us the capability of really pricing our products very, very strongly from a point of view of what we want to do in the market going forward, which we think today that the other players would be definitely forced to use this emulsion, but they have to import this emulsion otherwise. There is import duty component, there's a freight component, which kind of comes in.
Therefore, the kind of efficiencies it does offers us is very strong because people cannot escape not using this emulsion to that extent, because it is one of those areas which also imparts some special properties to the paint, which you are able to get at a very cost-effective manner when you use this emulsion. Given the fact that this emulsion is progressive, environment friendly and literally no offensive smell, it is definitely an emulsion where people can't really find an alternate in terms of just using it, because that alternate will come at a higher cost.
Perfect, sir. Thanks. That's helpful, very.
Hi. Tejas from Avendus Spark. Just one question. The kind of ramp-up that we have seen on our retail touchpoints, what kind of ramp-up we need on the back end in terms of depot network, in terms of feet on the street also? Does it mean that our depot network also would actually go up or would have gone up in last two, three years in the same pace?
Sorry, if you could, there's a muffled sort of sound coming in.
Yeah. No, the kind of ramp-up that we have seen in our retail network, it also needs to be supported by depot network on the back end.
Sure.
Has it also expanded in the same way, the way we have expanded the front end? B, how, what percent? For example, this year we are targeting 10% retail touch point increase. Does it mean that the feet on the street that we have also needs to increase in the same proportion?
What we have done is that, over the last three years, the overall hiring of the company has been fairly aggressive. We kind of even looked at the same thing during COVID times to that extent. This year itself, we would be recruiting more than 1,000 people in terms of what we are doing, both from the campuses all across as well as the frontliners, which would kind of come in. This is almost three times what we would generally recruit in every year to that extent. You're right, because with such a large retail network, there has to be a ramp-up in terms of the people which are also happening.
Therefore, I think, we are definitely using large amount of technologies to kind of see that the productivity element remains in terms of our overall foray. Yes, the number of people are being ramped up, and they are ramped up because of also the backward integration, the home decor and other areas coming into that extent. It's an all-round ramp-up which is kind of taking place.
Sir, on depot network, what will be the count, if you can share? What was it three years back?
Okay. Depot addition. Number of depots.
Okay. I think we would have added about 40 odd warehouses over the last three years as we see it to that extent. I think more importantly, what we have done is that the size of the warehouses has doubled to now almost like 1 lakh sq ft to about 1.2-1.5 lakh sq ft. Both things in terms of expanding the size of our warehouses, the mechanization of the warehouses and the number of warehouses. All around there is expansion which is happening with respect to the distribution structure.
Thanks.
Hi, this is Latika from JP Morgan. My question was, you know, on this volume value differential of 3% in the quarter. You know, if I go by your comments, probably you're looking at industry deco volume growth of 10%-12%, 1.5 to 2 times GDP. Do you anticipate for the coming year, given, you know, you mentioned that the economy margins are growing at a little faster pace, and then of course, you have a home decor contribution as well coming in. Would this volume value differential stay stable in your view, or it could expand for the coming year or reduce?
It's very difficult to say in terms of. Because see, for each quarter, the mix also varies. It's not one mix which is there, because when you come to, say, the quarter two, there is also a stocking pressure which kind of comes in, which people stock for the season to that extent. When we look at Q3, this time we are looking at a longer Diwali to that extent which comes in. Typically during a Diwali season, what happens, the mix kind of varies from a Q1 and a Q4 in terms of what we do kind of look at to that extent. Therefore, very difficult to say in terms of how the mix would kind of auger in terms of going ahead.
I think we have reason to believe that it should be kind of really in a certain band in terms of what we should kind of follow to that extent. It could be possibly anywhere between ±2-3% in terms of what we kind of look at going forward, unless obviously there is some other disruption in the market which kind of takes place. It is also a function of sometimes that if you are able to gain shares from some of the unorganized sector to that extent, then it kind of fuels the volume part slightly more to that extent than the value part sometimes to that extent. I think it is very difficult to say that what would be the real guidance to kind of see the value volume kind of a stroke there to that extent.
I think, from our point of view, the guidance very clearly remains from a margin perspective, clearly, that we would kind of really like to retain that margin. At the same time, we would like to be, as I said, aggressive in all segments so that we are also kind of really looking at broadening the market and gaining share.
Any flavor on, you know, home decor segments other than bath and kitchen? You know, how do they track on gross margins, operating margins, you know, because you've given a FY 2026, you know, revenue target. Any thoughts on how the profitability will basically play out over medium term here?
I think for each category it kind of really varies. You've seen the bath and the kitchen in terms of the way it is kind of unfolding in terms of this thing. Typically, what we see is that when we've acquired the lighting category, you know, the margins there are, EBITDA is kind of close to about 18%-20% kind of a zone which comes in to that extent. When you look at possibly the furnishing business, that would be in the range of about 10%-14%. You know, it would kind of vary from category to category depending on one, the innovation, the spread, the kind of range in terms of what you are kind of dwelling to that extent.
I think over a period of time, definitely we would see that this category should be settling anywhere between 10%-14% kind of a zone.
All right. Can I, just check for FY 23, you know, on standalone basis, what was advertising to revenue ratio for the full year? Is it possible to share?
It should be about three and a half %.
All right. Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you for the questions, live audience. We now move on to the participants joined via Zoom video platform. Our first question is from Mr. Chirag Shah. Please limit your questions to only two.
Yeah.
Kindly state your name and company name. Please unmute yourselves.
Sure. Thank you very much. This is Chirag Shah from CLSA. Amit, my question is going back to the home decor business. As we scale up this business and the business becomes far bigger, is there a merit in simplifying the corporate structure over here? What is the kind of capital that we need to deploy to scale up to the ambition that we have? Are we also expecting more categories to get launched here? Also a little bit, if you can share the growth plans in the White Teak business in particular. On Beautiful Homes, we are right now catering only to 11 cities. As we plan to double the number of stores, how many cities do we plan to sit?
Just trying to get a sense of where the market goes in terms of the geographical expansion.
Okay. Just to factually correct you, the Beautiful Homes Service platform is in 11 cities. The Beautiful Homes Stores are in much larger number of cities, almost about 30-
Yeah
-odd cities in terms of what we see. I think both the framework will keep on expanding as we kind of go ahead. As I spoke of going from 50 to 75 to 100 stores, I think we will definitely have a footprint of about being over in about 50 to 60 cities, where the Beautiful Home store network is going to be there to that extent. When we look at this thing in terms of categories, especially I think we are very buoyant in terms of categories like the fabrics, the lighting, the doors and windows, uPVC business. We are looking at literally exponential growth upwards of 50%, in some of these categories, which we will focus on as we kind of go ahead.
As I said, some of these categories are also very, very profitable and very strong from a point of view of design, kind of commanding a certain price as you kind of go ahead to that extent. We have already added categories like, you know, rugs, flooring, bed sheets in terms of the overall business, in terms of going forward. To that extent, there is already we are working on a very big category, which is called the fitted furniture, which is there to that extent, apart from the furniture which is there to that extent. In future, we would not mind adding any other categories which could kind of really be attractive overall. We think that today we have harnessed actually most of the categories in terms of the home decor business, which are there to that extent.
We think, currently, we would like to kind of have some consolidation in terms of really seeing that, we are looking at it. We have also launched tiles, which are there, which is a part of the home decor segment to that extent. We are not kind of going for very aggressive volumes in terms of the tiles, but we are looking more the designer and the high-end tiles, which are kind of coming in as a range completion in terms of our overall home decor business. I think that is something which is the intention in terms of how we would like to kind of grow this.
As a structure right now, we have kind of put all this under a particular home decor structure, which is there to that extent, so that we can leverage all our kind of skills and design designers, structure who kind of operate and our own leveraging of that architects, designers in a very, very strong manner. Currently, it is a structure which is possibly we are trying to put where there is some overlap of the paint business which is there. As you kind of move forward, the structure will possibly see whether we merge this structure into the full structure or whether we kind of really make it more sharper is something which we are seeing as the business progresses.
Sure. On the White Teak part and the furnishing business, of what is the expansion that we expect on White Teak? In furnishing, will it be largely distribution-led business? If that is the case, is there a scope to significantly expand faster?
Overall, when we see from a point of view of furnishing, when we took over the business, it had only about 100 retail points. Now we have 900 retail points in 2 years. That is the way we have expanded the business. It is just not a distribution story. It is also a story of design, where you kind of give very, very designer stuff. We have a Sabyasachi range of furnishing which is there. There is a pure concept range of furnishing which comes at even a price of INR 6,000 a meter to about INR 9,000 a meter, which is really the high end of the market.
Therefore, we are looking at segmentation within that kind of market in a strong manner, and it's not a pure play distribution in terms of what we are looking to that extent. As I said that we are now in the furnishing market, become number two player already in the market in a short span of two years to that extent. We will continue to the imperative of saying that not only we look at distribution, but we look at possibly the design, the quality of the cloth and other parameters which come in, so that we can offer a very, very strong range to the customer in India in terms of what possibly the customer demands. As far as the lighting concern, is concerned, we have ended this year at INR 109 crore.
We are angling for definitely a 50% plus growth kind of a thing in terms of what we want to kind of take on this segment. This segment, according to us, is about closer to about INR 1,100 crores as a market in terms of the overall segment, therefore we think that there is enough scope to kind of grow profitability in terms of profitably in this segment. A lot of this lighting is imported from China today in the Indian market, which is of a certain quality to that extent, therefore there is enough scope to kind of grow in the White Teak lighting segment as well.
Got it. My last question is on the backward integration. If you can just give an update on the backward integration facilities that we are expecting in white cement, VAE and monomer? Parag, does the INR 2,300 crore number include this backward integration related CapEx as well, and how much?
Yes, that number includes because, you must appreciate that the funding takes place over the next two to three years, time frame to that extent. This funding which Parag spoke of includes that kind of funding which is happening both from a VAM VAE perspective, which is a plant which is coming up, and also the cement plant which is coming up in Dubai, Fujairah to that extent. Apart from that, we have anyway expanded into some other elements of backward integration as well to that extent, which is already implemented in our plants at the moment.
Sure. Thank you very much and all the best.
Thank you for your question, Mr. Chirag Shah. We now move on to the next participant, Mr. Manoj Menon. Please unmute yourself and introduce with your name and company name.
Hi, Asian Paints team. Excellent performance given the market context. This is Manoj Menon from ICICI Securities. Sir, actually, my questions are not really pertaining to the quarter. One question which investors do highlight, you know, us, to us or rather ask us is: How do you actually define volumes? You know, is it tonnage or is there a formula, you know, which you apply?
The volume, basically is a conversion in terms of the specific gravity of the material in terms of which we look. Converting it into liters. Today, whatever we sell in value terms, there's a conversion which takes place into defining it as a liter to that extent, and that kind of constitutes what we see as the volume. Therefore, in a way, the volume is linked to the value in a strong manner in terms of how it emanates.
Understood. So is it fair to say that, let's say, when you sell a putty at a INR 20 per kilo versus the top end of, let's say, paint at, you know, maybe INR 800, you know, per liter. I mean, give or take, kind of in a kilo versus liter is like maybe 0.9. You know, is it fair to say that, you know, the formula which you use takes care of this, you know, significant, let's say, delta in terms of 40x, in terms of your low-end to the high-end product which you sell?
No. See, each volume which kind of comes in is basically related to the value in that sense to that extent. What will happen in terms of, say, a category like distemper. When we look at distemper, basically, it has a certain specific gravity ratio which kind of comes, which qualifies it into a certain volume zone to that extent. What we look at is, there is no formula which is used to kind of really bring everything to the same base to that extent. If there is a waterproofing product, it has a certain volume which is kind of coming in because of the overall thing, and it will have a certain value contribution, which would be possibly lesser than the value contribution of a luxury product, which would be there to that extent.
There is no one formula which binds everyone to bring it into a certain zone that the same formula is applied towards that. It's a pure play volume which kind of comes of that category to that extent, which adds to the overall volume in terms of what we project at an overall level in terms of what is there. Why we feel it is comparable because each company has the same product range today in the paint industry. There is no industry in the paint which does not have a putty, does not have a primer, does not have a distemper, or does not have waterproofing. Therefore, I think when people speak of volumes overall to that extent, it is by and large comparable in terms of what really people are speaking of in the industry.
That's very fair. Basically what I understood is it's not necessarily a value-weighted volume, it's actually a volumetric volume. Understood, sir.
That's right.
If at all there's something understood. Only second last question is, you know, now, you know, it's a brilliant work which you have done in waterproofing. I think there is no question on other Cefs. You know, maybe some comments on other Cefs also would be helpful on some good work you have done there. You know, on building lot many more, you know, businesses outside of paints. You know, two questions, Amit, actually. The quantitative part is all for us to see. Qualitatively, let's say, how are you managing complexity? I know that's like an omnibus question, with so many categories. Secondly, you know, some of the new businesses which you have, you know, looking to ramp up also has got a retail tinge to it, right?
You have been a product company for a long time. How are you managing that transition, at least in some of the businesses from, let's say, product to retail?
Okay. See, I can only kind of give you a little bit of. We started waterproofing about 7 years, 8 years back now to that extent. Because of our indigenous technology, we really grew the waterproofing business because actually a waterproofing business is a very, very technical business, where historically, people like Sika, Fosroc, and some of these companies have been as multinationals at the helm of affair to that extent. When we look at a category like adhesives, which we started about 6 years back, and now we are clearly the number two player with respect to the adhesives category to that extent. We look at possibly we started the whole zone of wallpapers or the painting tools which have kind of come in.
In each of these categories, what we have clearly seen, that these are not like standalone categories where we will have to put a separate structure to kind of take care of it. We have largely tried an integration approach that the current business is able to kind of sustain that, kind of new category which we are introducing with possibly the same set of people who are catering and reaching the same places where possibly paint is reaching to that extent. The area what we have looked at possibly going forward in terms of the new categories is largely an integration where either the integration takes place at the retail point or the integration takes place at a consumer point to that extent.
Therefore, possibly from a structure point of view, it has not added principally to the structural cost which possibly any new category would have added to that extent. Therefore, possibly the resilience in terms of why we are able to grow these categories very strongly. Are you there, Manoj?
Yes, sir.
I think he's cut off. Maybe he was satisfied with the answer.
No, no. I couldn't unmute. I'm sorry. Hello.
Yeah, Manoj.
Yeah, I can hear. No, I'm very much there, actually. Thank you, sir. No, it is very much, you know, clear in terms of both the. Sir, one request actually of, you know, which I would be doing with all the listed paint companies, you know, from this quarter onwards. Will it be feasible to follow the template, let's say when Indigo started couple of years back of, you know, reporting segmental, at least the revenue part, if not the profits? It's a request which comes from, let's say, consensus investing side.
We'll come...
Yeah.
-back.
You want to say?
Manoj, we'll come back on that. I don't want to comment now.
You've heard the CFO say what he wants to say on that. I have no power as a CEO to say anything on that. Thank you. Thank you. Good performance. Great luck, sir. Thank you.
Thank you for your question, Mr. Manoj Menon. We now move on to the live audience for one last question.
Yeah, thanks. A few follow-on questions. First is on the non-deco India business. When I see your auto paints and your industrial paints, last year, your margins were fairly similar at 6%, but this year the gap is almost 450 basis points, which was difficult to understand, if you could explain that? Second is you have given the size of industrial at around INR 1,000 crore. How much will be the auto paints also? Third is the leader in auto paints, Kansai, two days back said that they have gained market share in all the verticals of auto paints, four-wheeler, two-wheeler, EVs and the commercial vehicles also. If you could tell us with your relationship or partnership with PPG, what has been the gains in the last six, seven years post the relationship being more formalized?
Okay. Let me answer. The first part you said, you're asking about margins where?
450 gap in margins between auto and industrial this year. Last year, both were at similar margins.
See, one of the reasons I explained earlier why the margins have kind of really increased here is the fact that we have become very, very strong with respect to taking certain price increases in the market, which we were not possibly taking earlier. This has come on the behest of our superior offerings, which are there in the market from a point of view of differentiated offerings, which we are able to kind of give in the market to that extent. As I explained, that if I am giving a floor coating, the floor coating will come with some additional parameters and therefore it will be of a certain higher price as compared to competition in terms of what we are able to put up.
This is also led by our technology, which comes from PPG to that extent, which what we have been kind of doing. From an overall point of view, both businesses, whether it is the auto OE business or it is the general industrial businesses, we have been able to, one, take very, very progressive price increases with respect to our range. Second, I think the differentiated products are giving us a very good opportunity to price and differentiate certain of products much higher than competition, which has led to this kind of overall profitability, which has kind of come into that extent.
Third, I think there has been a strong amount of work at the R&D level in terms of looking at, really working around the formulations to see that we are able to kind of increase our margins in a very, very strong manner to that extent. I think these are the components which possibly have kind of inflated the industrial kind of volumes for us in a very strong manner.
Your auto paint margins are better because those are 450 basis points ahead of industrial. When you are saying R&D has helped or whatever differentiated, is it only in auto that you are doing differentiated?
Abneesh.
Another part to that question is also the fact that auto margins are always better than the general industrial. In the previous year, given the nature of the business, which is more B2B, the price increases actually come with a significant lag in the auto business, therefore you had a much larger inflationary impact on the auto business.
Size of auto business, and if you could talk about the market share gains in the last 7, 8 years.
The INR 1,000 crore that we reported is on the non-auto business purely. It doesn't include any auto. The auto business is the second JV, where about 1/3 of the business is from the four-wheeler OEMs. Another 1/3 is from the two-wheelers and other commercial vehicles, and 1/3 is from the refinish segment.
Sure. Last question on Indonesia. 6, 7 years back, there were big plans. Would you say where you are currently, you'll be hugely disappointed? Is that disappointment because of the GDP? Because most companies in Indonesia are disappointing. Would you be saying that you are in the right path because of the COVID or whatever issues, things got a bit derailed?
No, definitely, I think Indonesia has been a disappointment, for sure, because I think the trajectory in the last three years has not been good at all in terms of what we anticipated in the market to that extent. Not blaming the fact that other companies, how they are doing, but I think we see ourselves very clearly that, when you are at a single-digit market share and we have not been able to grow the market very aggressively. We are putting adequate measures in terms of saying that we give ourselves some time in terms of seeing how we need to kind of galvanize that business and take it ahead to that extent.
I don't think so I have to blame the economy for doing it, because when you are at a low market share, then it is not the economy, but it's your own strength in terms of doing what we can do in that market to that extent. I think there's a way to go in that market definitely. What we have been definitely able to do is prune the losses a little bit in terms of what we were earning there. Having said that, I think the larger growth strategy has to kick in terms of possibly seeing that that business becomes worthwhile as we kind of go ahead.
As of now, you don't think you have the model, right? Because you don't talk about it and you're still saying that you have cut the losses rather than you have the strategy to scale up the revenue.
No, there is a strategy which is in place, which is there. It's just that, some parts of the strategy have not gone in the way in terms of we would have liked. For example, we tried to possibly see the entire lay of the land, because in Indonesia, if you see, there are islands which are spread all across the country to that extent. We did an approach of approaching everything at one shot, which possibly did not give us the leeway. Now we are looking at a far more concentrated strategy in terms of key strategic places in Indonesia, and that's something which we are going to follow now. There is definitely a strategy in place, because without strategy, then we would have winded up far earlier together.
Sure. Thanks.
Due to time constraint, we'll be ending the Q&A session right now. We thank all the audience for all their questions. May I now request Mr. Amit Syngle for his closing remarks.
Okay, great. I think it was a good session. I think of a long time we had one physical session with all of you to that extent. Thank you for coming. I hope we added some value in terms of answering some queries of yours to that extent. Look forward to meeting you in future and seeing how we can make this session far more stronger and interactive as you kind of go by. Thank you.