CMS Info Systems Limited (NSE:CMSINFO)

Analyst Day 2025

← View all transcripts

Sep 30, 2025

Summary

A three-business structure and continued investment in retail, ATM outsourcing and Vision AI underpin an organic FY30 revenue target of INR 3,800–3,900 crore. M&A could lift that to INR 4,500–4,700 crore, while FY26 starts under pressure.

Good afternoon, everyone, and a very warm welcome to you all. My name is Anuj Sonpal. I am the CEO of Valorem Advisors. We represent the investor relations, external investor relations of CMS Info Systems Limited. Before we begin, I request everybody to please mute your phones, keep it on silent. Firstly, on behalf of the company, thank you all for joining us today for the company's Analyst Day 2025. This event is being hosted at the Jio World Center in Mumbai and is also being streamed virtually for our global investors and analysts. The purpose of today's session is to provide you with deeper insights into the company's business, financial performance, and future growth strategies, as well as to give you an opportunity to interact with the leadership team of the company. Let me mention a short cautionary statement before we start. Some of the statements made in today's event may be forward-looking in nature. Such forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to differ from those anticipated. These statements are based on management's beliefs, assumptions, and information currently available to them. We caution the audience not to place any undue reliance on such forward-looking statements while making any investment decisions. Now let me introduce you to the management participating with us in today's event. We firstly have with us Mr. Rajiv Kaul, the Executive Vice Chairman, Whole Time Director, and CEO of the company. Mr. Kaul's mission is to make CMS India's best business service platform by leveraging its network, technology, and solutions mindset to solve complex problems. Under his leadership, the company has delivered a 9x growth over the past 15 years. Prior to the company, he was associated with various marquee companies like Actis Capital LLP in London, Microsoft Corporation India Private Limited, in the capacity of General Manager and Managing Director, amongst other experiences. During his tenure at Microsoft, the business was the fastest-growing globally and the largest among emerging markets. We have with us also Mr. Anush Raghavan. He is the Chief Business Officer of the company and has been associated with the company since 2009. He has previously worked with Hay Consultants India, gaining valuable experience in business management and strategy. Mr. Raghavan is also the President of the Cash Logistics Association and Currency Cycle Association of India. With over 14 years of experience in business management and business development, he has been a key driver of the company's growth and strategic initiatives. Next, we have with us Mr. Pankaj Khandelwal, the President and Chief Financial Officer of the company. Mr. Pankaj has been associated with the company also since 2009. He is a qualified chartered accountant with over 27 years of experience in finance accounts and commercial operations. Lastly, we have with us Mr. Puneet Bhirani, the Chief Operations Officer of the company. He is responsible for streamlining service delivery and operations across business lines. He has more than 26 years of cross-cultural leadership experience across India, U.K., and the U.S. Without any further delay, I request the management to walk us through a presentation covering the strategic priorities and key focus areas of the company in the coming years. Mr. Rajiv and Mr. Anush will take you through a presentation. Thank you. Without any further delay, Rajiv, over to you. Sorry, Anush. No worries. Thank you, Anuj, for that warm introduction. Good afternoon, and thank you everybody for spending your time with us today. Warm welcome to the second installment of the CMS Analyst Day. For those of you who were with us here in 2023, great to have you back. I see a lot of familiar faces from some of our past interactions. For those of you who are attending our investment day for the first time or new to CMS, I truly hope today will be an enriching session. With that, I also wanted to ask you whether you had the chance to look at the technology demonstration with what we have in terms of our HAWKAI implementation as well as Retail 360. But looking at the crowds and the lines that were there, I am assuming I am preaching to the crowd. Those demonstration stalls will also be open even after the event. So for those of you who did not get a chance, you are welcome to have a look. It is just a small glimpse of what we are trying to do. Every time we talk about our HAWKAI or Vision AI, we try to use a lot of words and language to explain what we are doing, but nothing like seeing it in front of your eyes for the first time. It is just a small glimpse of our capabilities, but we hope with that we get a better sense and idea of what the business is all about. We are very excited to share a lot of things with you today. How the company has transformed since the last time we met over the last two years. What the market backdrop is. How do we think about growth, opportunity, potential, and what plans we have for the future. As well as to spend time with the management team answering any questions that you might have. Before that, however, let me just spend five minutes giving a quick recap to some of you who may be new to the company in terms of who we are, how we got to where we are today, and what is it that we do. Over the last 16 years, we have had a fairly exciting journey with a lot of different milestones. But I think the three most pivotal moments would sort of fall into what we are trying to show here today to you. From 2009 to 2015, we started life as a cash logistics or a cash management business. We were the largest cash company back in 2009, but we spent the initial years focusing and executing on just expanding our market reach and network. We expanded to more than 2,000 towns and cities across India, covered 18,000 pin codes, 97% of districts. By 2015, we had built a formidable moat, a company which was not just the largest in cash management, but was significantly regarded by partners and customers whom we worked with for the quality of service that we provided and the technology that we used as our backbone. We used that to launch our second business around managed services, which is a business where we work directly with banks, tapping the revenue at source, helping them manage their ATMs in a more efficient and better manner. The combined benefits of the technology that we had in the managed service business, as well as the strengths of the cash business, presented itself as an integrated end-to-end platform to the banks. It gave us a very strong right to win. On the back of that, in the span of just 7 to 8 years, we were able to grow the managed service business to becoming the third largest MSP in the country. 2021 was a very interesting year for us. It was when we launched our technology business. The Vision AI is fastest growing SaaS business in India in the last 3 to 4 years. It was also the year when we expanded the set of customers whom we worked with from banks to BFSI and a broad set of retail customers. That was also when we went public to the IPO markets in December 2021. When you look at the set of businesses that we have today, we are 7 different revenue lines, from INR 100 crores to INR 1,000 crores. When you look at the mix, especially between cash and managed services, in the earlier slide you'd have seen when we started we were 100% cash oriented. Over the span of 15 years, we were able to diversify that and get 40% revenues from non-cash businesses around managed services and technology. More than 80% of the revenues that we get in the cash business are network-based or route-based. What that means is there is a very strong operating leverage that comes into play every time with a growth in the business. More than 80% of the revenues in our managed service business are long-term recurring in nature and are subscription oriented, which means it gives us a great degree of predictability and visibility to how those businesses would span out. One of the playbooks, and we've spoken about this in some of our earlier discussions, has been about how we've been able to execute, right? What are business strategies or what are sales strategies? We think we should try to emulate the way large IT companies, global IT majors report their revenues. It's also been the playbook in terms of how we approach our customers and how we think about growth. One of the cornerstones of that has been we take large accounts and we sort of mine them and find out ways to keep relentlessly cross-sell and expand the opportunity set. If there is an account where we are selling one service or one solution, the idea is always to try and expand that to cover the breadth of the entire service or solutions offering. In the last 3 years, we've been able to grow large accounts which contribute more than INR 50 crores in annual revenues by more than 50% from 8 to 13. Just a short insight in terms of how CMS thinks in terms of having a diversified revenue profile. This is also the year when we launched and refreshed our brand offering around the unified platform earlier this year. Now we'll present you a short video which introduces and talks through the same, after which I would invite Rajiv to the stage. Good evening. Thank you for coming. Let me get this back onto where it should be. We did this first edition of our Investor Day a couple of years ago, and I know the last 2, 3 quarters, there was a lot of interest saying when we can come back and repeat it. I think we are saying let the dust settle. There are too many changes in the industry. I think right now seems to be a good time as any for us to come and give you an update on what's been happening at the industry level, at the macro level, and at a company level. Also, interesting things to share about how we are evolving and what we are doing. Coming to just, first thing I want to talk about is what we did about 3 or 4 months ago was to reposition and relaunch our brand. Our company's come a long way. If I think of us over the last 7 to 10 years, we have changed significantly. In the last 4 to 5 years, we have transformed at a fairly rapid pace. This sort of necessitated for us to relook at, is the name still relevant? Is the CMS, which has a very strong correlation to being a cash management company, and what could be a new name or a new positioning for the company? I think after talking to all stakeholders, including customers and employees and partners and investors, I think what we did was we said we will retain the CMS name. That name evokes a very strong recall, respect, trust, admiration amongst the community, which are important to us. In a B2B business, I think that's very important for us. We retained the CMS brand name, but at the same time, we decided to refresh our positioning. Our last positioning, actually, we had done was in 2015 as we were emerging and looking at getting into managed services, and that positioning was about connecting commerce. We changed that today to reflect the changes in the company and how we think of our opportunity and what we provide to our customers and said, "We change our position to unified platform, limitless possibilities." Two words. Very different meanings. Unified platform is really about who we are. That's the internal soul of the company. It's how we think of being an institution. It's really our playbook and our strategy can be just, and we'll talk about that today. When I think about limitless possibilities, that's more of a forward-looking, eternal brand promise of the possibilities and the optionalities this platform can create for our customers, and therefore, also hopefully for all our stakeholders. So, I think that's what we have come up with. There's a lot of work internally which is going in to immerse ourselves into this as to how we're reorganizing our life, what we are doing inside the company. Then hopefully this impact of this will be seen externally over the coming years. We will also be rebranding all of our physical assets, whether it's our vans or our Vision AI solutions with this new positioning in the coming year. We also decided to invest in creating three sub-brands. These are sub-brands for emerging new categories of businesses which need to be looked at distinctively by customers than just CMS. While they belong to the CMS family, I think the focus will be really on a new brand name, a sub-brand name for them. For our Vision AI solution, we have HAWKAI as a brand which we are going to lead and sell in the market with. For our software range of solutions, it will be ALGO. For everything we do in the direct-to-retail part of the business, it will be Retail 360. There is no confusion in the. All of these businesses have different drivers, have different operating models, will have very different teams than what we do there. Therefore, we said we need to have a newer identity about them as we establish these going forward. When you think about who we are today, we are India's best business services platform. When we say best business services platform, what do we mean? We mean, first of all, quality. The quality of what we do and what we offer for our customers is very critical. I think keeping a very high threshold for ourselves there is why we want to have so that we can lay claim to the word best. The second really comes in from the perspective of how we think about market share size. We want to be the largest. We do not enter a sector unless we have a clear path in our head to market leadership. We do not mind a niche, but I think for larger businesses, we very clearly focus on market share and being a number one position out there. I think for us, the best comes down to saying you want to have high quality, and you want to be able to have scale, which will make you a clear, undisputed number one. When you think of that, our entire playbook comes down to very simple things. In fact, all we do is focus on this for each one of our businesses. Anush talked about seven business lines. In most of them, we try and apply this playbook, which is about getting first focusing on share and being a clear market number one. Because once you have the scale, you are then able to invest into technology, into automation, into quality, and therefore delight a customer, which helps create a virtuous cycle of getting more business. It could be at a premium price or just could be just through market expansion. This needs a lot of serious investment in tech, serious focus on quality and standards, and also really about a team which is better than anybody else in the market. When I think of us, I think we have been very lucky and fortunate. Anush, Pankaj, our CFO, we have been in the company, all three of us, have been in the company for more than 15, 17 years. In fact, that is a wider trend in the company. The number of employees and team members who have been more than 15 years will be more than 10% of our company right now. Puneet, who is our Chief of Operations, joined us 18 months ago, roughly. He is new, but thankfully, had a stint in the sector before he got excited with the startup community and went to Ola and BYJU'S, and then he said, "I just need to get back to sanity and something better like CMS." I think while he may be still new to the company, I think he has a very good understanding of the drivers and the industry cycles. For us, retaining the knowledge of going through cycles is very important. When you think about getting to a sector, establishing a strong pole, flag, being a number one, then we think and look for opportunities to expand either horizontally or vertically. We do this because simply our biggest driver of our growth has been outsourcing. Outsourcing, when you think of outsourcing in IT, where I come from, or you think of telecom, the driver is the same. Customers, over time, want more and more from high-quality players. They want to give them more work to the players they are able to depend on. Therefore, integration becomes very critical. We are one of the first people to put a line in the sand saying we will integrate across the value chain. That needs investments, but we will be able to give customers more value, lesser headache, and hopefully in the process, increase our share of wallet, share of revenue. Higher revenue should hopefully accrue in better operating margins or in higher cash flows. Then you look at that. Our focus remains on saying. If you think of us, we don't operate in any sector where the margins are less than 15%. Business services is variety of businesses in India. All good. I have no comment on the type of companies and their business strategy. But for us, we are saying, which sector are we working in? What sort of a margin profile can we create? That's why you go back to saying when you say best, you're trying to say focus on sectors where cash flows are, or where there's growth, where there's a good margin. It all boils down to creating a good quality free cash flow engine out of them. Then if you are able to be smart and judicious about capital allocation, it creates a fairly decent cycle, and therefore the playbook of saying, "This is what we do to cash management. This is what we do to the managed services. This is what we're going to try and do with our Vision AI business." The results of this approach is a very strong compounding over the last 16 years. 11x revenue growth, 16x PAT growth through different market cycles, different macro drivers, at a country level, industry level, sub-sector level, and even global level, right? You think of this, and margins will go up and down, but over a period of time, I think we've had very strong, consistent compounding. That's what we say. Our playbook is very simple. It needs a lot of patience and, over time, you do the basics, I think there's results and good numbers. Not only have we grown well at this period, if you think of our performance post-IPO at the end of 2021, our growth numbers have been a little better. We grew pre-IPO at 16% CAGR revenue. That's increased to 17% CAGR revenue, 2021 to 2025. If you look at PAT growth of 18%, that's grown to 22%. More importantly for us, we're obviously very proud of doing a successful IPO, living up to people's expectations post that for not just one, two quarters, for multiple years. Also we think about the key metrics for us, margins, market share. Our market share in our earliest business, cash management, has gone up from 38% to 42% in these four years. You think of managed services, where we didn't even have an ambition to be a number one player. We said just want to be a good quality niche player. We are now a number three player, from being a number five player. If you think of the business split and how our business is changing is, we are a 70-30 split between cash management, managed services. That's now a 60-40. Keeping in mind that the cash business has grown really well in this period. Finally, we incubated a new business around Vision AI, which has already gone to around 5% of revenue. In fact, I remember some of you here who, we are selling, during road shows in the IPO, we are talking about this business. It was a slide. There's nothing else. We had nothing to show. We could see the interest and excitement, but also a lot of cynicism, which is, I think the most cynical people in the world are actually investors, right? Judicious to. I remember those days where people said, [Foreign language] And I kept saying, "This is an optionality." You're investing in a company at a fairly low valuation, but you get optionality of this business coming up. We will get to INR 100 crore revenue in three, four, five years. I think we got to INR 100 crore revenue in three years from then. We'll hopefully get to INR 200 crore revenues in the five years since we launched this business. But, for us, really, it's about being careful and pragmatic of what we commit and working really hard to achieve that. Along with this, we've been successfully able to run a very robust operating metrics, financial metrics. Not just PAT. I think for us, OCF has been historically our average over eight years of time is roughly around 35% of our EBITDA. When I think of our FCF, is close to almost 50% over this extended period of time. So I think for us, it all boils down to creating a business which is high margin, very decent growth, and robust OCF, FCF metrics. Then for us, I think it's about how do you prudently manage the capital you generate. One thing, just for context, CMS hasn't raised any primary money in IPO. We haven't raised money since 2011. I think the total amount of primary in this company through two cycles of private equity ownership and public market is, I think, roughly INR 130, INR 150 crores, maybe in that range, historically though. Since 2011. So everything we've done to grow has been from the capital the company has generated over time. And therefore, we feel very proud about that lineage, and we want to focus on that and keep it really efficient. I think even our ROEs have been like 18%, 19%, 20%. Now, this is a slide which sort of gives you an idea of over time periods, how have we allocated capital, right? We look at the past and try and give you a sense of how we have thought about things. Demonetization happened 2016, so the year right after, we are being very careful and judicious. We don't want to invest because we don't know what's going to happen. Because at that time, people said cash will die now. There'll be no more cash, right? ATMs will die and cash will die. We said, "Possibly." But we did, at that time, still take a small M&A effort, and we entered managed services. We are sort of a, what is the word? We're a contrarian company in many ways, right? We'll wait for cycles of booms and busts to settle down and then decide to make an entry. We are never the first one to enter into something. I think the few times we try to be first to something, it doesn't work out. So we sort of write off the money and just move back. So I think even in that year, we made a small investment. But over the period, the next 2, 3 years, we invested to grow our managed services business. When we saw post-COVID balance sheets of many competitors in the industry ecosystem weaker, we felt there was an opportunity where banks are coming out of the two-year sort of lockdown, and there was a need to revamp and refresh their infrastructure, including branches and ATMs and whatnot. We sort of seized that, making significant investments at that time to grow and bid and win contracts. Actually, that helped us have the superb growth we had in FY 2022, 2023, 2024, at that time. But in the last couple of years, as you know what happens, industry cycles change, competitive intensity starts going up. People look at growth of other companies. They start competing. The only way to compete is finally on low price. We stayed out, and we reduced and damped down our capital investment cycles and said, "This is not the time to be investing capital for growth. We will sacrifice short-term growth, but we'll wait for better cycles." The other thing I want to show you on this graph is that over the last 7 to 8 years, we have historically paid dividends every year, including when we were not a public company. Our dividend payout ratio has varied from roughly 20% to 40%. Depending on capital needs, as we see. Last year, as we tamped down on a CapEx, we felt there was extra capital, so we had a special interim dividend to increase our dividend payout ratios. So allocating capital, whether to shareholders back, or through dividends, or to invest in expansion or diversification by pragmatic bets and M&A, or just CapEx into key projects where we think we have far more control on, has been something we've got a good experience on. Now, the result comes in really saying what sort of return. If you think at this chart, our average ROCs have been more than 20% in this entire period, or almost entire period, from 2020 onwards. In fact, 2020 onwards is much higher, at 23%, 24%, 25%. But take an average ROCE of 21%, 22%. Those are very healthy ROCE metrics when we have been investing significantly. You look at the chart, you see FY 2021, 2020, I think we invested almost INR 200 crores of CapEx. We bumped it up to INR 400 crores in FY 2022, 2023, and we then tamped it down to roughly INR 200 crores in the next two years. I think we are sort of, I would say, agile to getting timing right of capital allocation. We may get a little bit here and there wrong, but mostly I think we've been lucky and fortunate in getting our capital allocation cycle right. And end of March 2025, we had cash in hand of almost INR 1,000 crores. I referred to this simply because it should give you confidence. You should also have a question saying, "What are you going to do with the cash?" But I think it's a phenomenal asset for a company like us to have, which has had a demonstrated high growth, good ROCE metrics, and we think this is capital which could be very vital as we think about the next five years. We are sitting here talking to you really about how we think about FY 2025 to FY 2030. I think one of our biggest strengths is not only the brand and the quality and the market share, but also the cash balance we accumulated, which could provide a massive stimulus of growth when the right opportunity comes along. I want to now reset and we've spent the last three and a half, four years explaining to you about our company, and I think sometimes I get the feedback saying it's too complicated. Both are and we want to try and simplify. I think we've done enough good disclosures over this period of time. But there is a need for us internally as we think about our platform approach, and we think about what drivers are occurring in the market today to reorganize ourselves and also simplify our own lives. Hopefully, it'll simplify yours. We are thinking for life going forward in terms of three business lines or three businesses. From the seven you've seen or the two you think about, three businesses. And the idea is that each of these businesses has a different driver, either from a macro or a growth perspective, or a competitive intensity perspective or an operating model. How do you want to operate? And what do customers want? You think of cash management, it's one big word, but it doesn't mean anything because what a retail customer wants is very different from a bank customer wants. Very different cycles. And I think all this while, we built this in a particular manner, putting in common infrastructure for all these businesses because that would seem logically right. But I think it's time for us to invest, and I say invest because you have to reset that clock and say, we think this world will change. We want to be at the front of making that change and drive that change for better growth, better margins, and whatnot. The first business is the driver for this around outsourcing. And everything we do in ATMs today will be clubbed in this business. You will have ATM cash management, you will have managed services, you would have transaction link BLA models. Everything to do with the bank outsourcing would come into this one business line. The demands there are very different. First of all is quality. The quality needs are, uptime needs are massive. You have got to have the network running at 90%, 92%, 94%, 95%. If you get that wrong, massive penalties. The second is safety. Safety of money, safety of the consumer. A consumer entering an ATM branch, or ATM or a bank branch. Again, the customer drivers are very different, and therefore you need to have an organization operating model which can tailor to fit to that. The second one is around formalization and consumption. Here, we are focused on the opportunity which comes in from formalization, GST version 1 reforms, GST version 2 reforms, hopefully, and overall consumption growth in the market. We link to it when consumers spend money. They will spend it in digital formats, UPI format, and cash format. As with GST, you get more formalization, you have more stores opening up, whether it is organized retail or it is the QSR chain, or it is quick commerce, or it is NBFC. As they penetrate semi-urban, rural, we are seeing a very strong correlation to cash growth and usage in semi-urban, rural. Therefore, as the company, we need to reset our brain and saying, we do not think of all India and having the same approach. There is a different approach for metro and urban. There is a different approach for semi-urban, rural. It is also the sector where we feel the retail business has significantly large TAM, but under-penetrated for decades because this is primarily a bank-led service model. Banks led the service to retail, and we are trying to change that and saying, we invested in the last 3 years with significant return sales and solutions saying we will create a direct to retail channel, which will help expand the market. India remains a very price conscious market in every industry. Therefore, how do you work here? The amounts you are going and picking up from a retail store are INR 50,000, INR 1 lakh, INR 2 lakh, INR 3 lakhs. In ATM, you are going and taking crores sometimes. Or at least INR 40 lakhs, INR 50 lakhs. So very different operating model needed, very different cost consciousness needed. I think we have had very good results in the D2R strategy. Our goal there remains to expand the market significantly, and therefore leading with price, leading with a lower cost operating model is what we think will help us get there. This also will comprise our currency in transit business because that is linked to bank branches, moving money between chests and branches. I think most banks are going to consolidate currency chests, and therefore the number of trips you need between a currency chest to bank branches will go up. In fact, over the next 5 years, and Anuj will talk about it, we may just see a big driver of just currency chests being outsourced to private players. Which has happened in a small way till now. The third business is really around a theme around automation, digitization, payments. And for this is mostly a business which is very different than our current business lines, because the driver is not really operating efficiency in the field. The driver is really more of a SaaS business model. It is about software. It is about working with the IT teams of the client. It could be a bank, it could be retail, it could be quick commerce. I think that needs a very different sales approach. It needs a very different sales team. It also needs a very different solutioning mindset. Therefore, I think this business, as it is becoming relevant at high growth for us, becomes something where we have to think about what are the investments needed here, and we house it separately under one. We will also include anything we do on payments. Today, it is issuing payment cards. Tomorrow, it could be some fintech business we are doing possibly. The optionality in this business are massive, and we will talk about it, but everything we do here, possibly in the future through diversification, will come in here. So how do these business stack today? You think of the ATM managed business, which is our oldest business. That has doubled from INR 650 odd crores in FY 2021 to INR 1,300 crores in FY 2025. That is almost like an 18%, 19% growth in that business. I look at our formula driven consumption driver to retail and currency logistics. That business has grown from close to INR 400 crores to INR 650 crores. Then the technology and payment solutions business, when you club those together, they was INR 100 crore business grown about 2 and a half times to INR 240 crores in FY 2025. We will, over the next few quarters, report business as we have always reported, but we will also try to give you a picture of revenues on these businesses. Over time, as we get more comfortable with this and we build these businesses, I think we will start shifting reporting into these business lines and organizing our life around here. So with that, I am going to call Anuj to help you take a deeper dive into the drivers for some of these business lines. Thanks, Arjun. Before I dive into how we think about the ATM managed solutions and overall sector, I just thought I will take a quick 2-minute to sort of help also understand what is the overall ATM landscape about. Many people tend to sort of get intimidated or confused, especially about many different buzzwords or abbreviations, which are fairly common as insiders in the industry, managed services, WLA, BLA. I think one of the ways to sort of simplify the model is to really think of it from a perspective of two vectors. Who owns the ATM, and whether they are outsourcing the cash logistics or they are doing it themselves. I think within the framework of both of these vectors lie all the sort of different business models and combinations that we see in the industry. First, we have what we call managed services. Now, this is where a bank owns the asset, and they are just outsourcing the cash management to companies like us or other managed service players. The needs here are more around offering managed services for monitoring the network operations of the ATMs, making sure that somebody is looking at the cash forecasting, handling the incident management, and also helping the bank with currency replenishment. Out of 2.5 lakh ATMs in the country today, roughly about 35,000 ATMs fall into this category. Both public sector and private sector banks are party to this, but there is a slight bias towards private sector banks. Typically, contracts run from 3 to 5 years, and revenues are about INR 2 to INR 2.5 lakh on a per year basis. Then we have ATMs, which are owned by the banks, and also the cash management is done by themselves. Now, this has mostly been a prevalent model among public sector banks in ATMs, which are co-located with the bank branches. Typically, what in the industry we call on-site ATMs. Off-site being the ones which are outside the branch, and on-site being the ones which are along with the branch. Historically, as public sector banks have expanded bank branches and set up ATMs, they found it easiest to set up ATMs where they already had a physical presence, and to get some of their existing resources or staff to maintain this. Over the last 10 years, there has been a steady trend of outsourcing with each incremental RFP cycle, more and more of these ATMs to what you see in the top category. But we still have close to 90,000 ATMs today, which are managed by the banks themselves. The revenues here are much lesser because you don't do the heavy lifting on the cash replenishment, close to about INR 5,000 per month. Then we have the third category, the brown label ATMs. Can come in 2 different avatars, which could be a fixed fee monthly model or a transaction linked variable fee model. Now, of late, the brown labels have acquired a little bit of infamy, but we have to give credit where it's due. For most of the last decade, in the 2012 to 2020s, and even in the last 3 years, it is this model which has allowed the banks to rapidly accelerate and grow their ATM network. It helps them expand in an asset-light based model. In this case, the ATM is set up by an independent ATM deployer who could be an MSP, could be a CMS, for example. The bank only lends its brand, right? The brand of the bank is what brings the footfalls in. It also serves as a very powerful marketing or a brand outreach tool for the bank. The fees, like I said, could either be linked to the transactions or a monthly fixed fee model. The revenues here are close to about, one typically needs to make at least about INR 40,000 a month per ATM for the brown label to be viable. Now, depending on that, it either fits into the, you charge transactions appropriately or the fixed fee is sort of around this. Contract lives are between 7 to 10 year life cycles. Then we have white label. Now, white label in India started almost way back in 2012 when RBI first gave out the initial set of licenses. For a long time, white label companies were competing with banks for transaction share, for effectively real estate share, right? It was a land grab in some ways. It has only been in the last 3 to 4 years that they have been able to carve a niche for themselves, where the idea is not to compete with a bank, but to complement the efforts of bank around formalization and effectively help drive consumption, especially in those geographical segments where banks themselves are not present. So if you look at where white label is the strongest today, you look at tier 3, tier 4, tier 5 cities. Those are the places where they are able to effectively complete the consumption cycle, that the needs of the people who spend INR 500, INR 1,000, INR 2,000, white label plays a very critical role in those markets. It does not need any outsourcing because typically white label ATM providers partner with an existing franchisee or a retail store owner who helps set up the ATM or manage it themselves. So those are sort of the prevailing industry models. But of course, the question on everybody's mind, I am sure will be what is happening to ATMs themselves? Who uses an ATM? What is the frequency of usage? 3 to 4 years back, the question that was being asked to us was a little different, which was more around cash and currency itself. We set about trying to address that by showing as much data as we could about who uses cash, where, and for what purposes. Today, that has become almost an institution by itself in terms of what we publish as the CMS consumption report on an annual basis. I am sure as part of the handouts today, all of you will be given a copy of that report. A snippet out of that is what we are presenting today in terms of how ATMs are used in the country and what is the intensity of their transactions. Whether you take metro or semi-urban rural, you do not see too much of a difference. In metros last year, people transacted close to about 1.2 crore per ATM versus 1.3 crore in semi-urban and rural. The year-on-year trends show a fairly resilient and stable performance across this entire network. But the last time I was here, in 2023, I shared an interesting snippet with you, which is that when you ask yourselves what is the role of an ATM in India today or the ATM channel, one way to look at it is the total currency which is dispensed from the ATM network in India today is more than all of the credit and debit card transactions combined at POS. That was true 2 years back. It is true today as well. The idea is not to sort of use this to compete or to counter any argument, right? Digitalization has been the story for the last 4 to 5 years, and it continues to be so. But even in the face of it, if 2.5 lakh crore of currency is withdrawn from ATMs every single month, which in some ways is as much as the GST collections of the country as a whole, right? That is the amount of currency which is withdrawn from ATMs. It just sort of stands testament to the fact that despite whatever our beliefs might be, the ATM channel still has an extremely relevant role to play in enabling payment, consumption, commerce and just survival for most of India today. Then you sort of break down and look at the data on a quarterly trend. You will start seeing a fairly steady and stable trend emerging, not just in ATM usage, but also in terms of the number of times a company like CMS needs to visit these ATMs for replenishment. The usage of an ATM and ATM transactions are relevant for one part of a business model, right? Especially around transaction-led BLA, and that some way sort of determine what is the criticality of an ATM to a bank. But to a company like us in the cash logistics space as well, it is the visits to an ATM that underline, that are one of the core drivers of our revenues and realizations. And that number, which you will see here, has been incredibly range-bound between 11 to 12 visits per ATM per month. In a way, I think we have explained this in the past, it is not the transactions levels at an ATM which determine the number of visits we need to make. It is the bank which is always sort of constantly seeking a fine balance between amount of currency which is in ATM as not being either too much because then it is idle cash or not being too low because then you have a risk of a cash out. So the 11 to 12 in a way is expressed as a way of saying a cash management company visits an ATM on alternate day business model. ATM numbers overall, we have had various different doomsday prophecies. 10 years back, we heard this, 5 years back. Again, not defending any numbers, but just using the data to show what is out there. From 2019 onwards, right? Sort of pre-COVID to 2023 onwards. That four-year cycle saw ATMs expand from almost 220,000 to close to 250,000. In a way, it was driven by two key factors. The first being 2020, 2021 is when the previous interchange increase happened from INR 15 to INR 17. An interchange increase is just a very powerful tool to drive an expansion of this because it acts as an incremental revenue pool and profit pool for the industry as a whole. It just means it creates an incentive for somebody to deploy an ATM because now they can earn a little bit more revenue from it. It also acts as a penalty for the banks which are not deploying enough ATMs because it now means that they start paying a higher fee to another bank, which is taking up the responsibility and obligation of setting up an ATM. Closer to 2025, I will talk about this, there have been issues which have of course caused an impact on the ATM numbers. But a very interesting trend which has also been emerging is in this overall 2.5 lakh ATM count that we see, banks are becoming a lot more nuanced about how they are treating ATM as a whole. ATM is today a catch-all phrase which we use, but within that, banks also care whether an ATM is acting as a cash dispenser, where it is only dispensing currency, or also as a cash recycler, where it is able to perform effectively the job of a branch teller, of both accepting currency and as well as dispensing it. Most banks for the last 2 to 3 years have pivoted away from thinking of an ATM as a revenue-generating channel to an important tool of customer engagement and customer servicing. And what that means is, what a bank is today willing to invest in the quality of their on-site network is far more than what they were doing in the past. Instead of leaving this to just the brown label deployers who set up an ATM, banks are investing serious CapEx in upgrading the quality of their on-site networks. They are seeking to effectively create the ATM site as a proxy for a bank branch. The cost for a bank of a branch transaction is still anywhere between 8 to 10 times more expensive than what they would pay for a similar transaction through an ATM or a cash recycler. And this is a rule, right? Automation and technology will always trump any sort of a manual process. So when we later talk today about how banks are using CMS, I will go MVS solution. It basically points to the fact that through a combination of software platform and technology, they want to try and drive as many customer processes and channel engagement as they can through what was earlier a cash disbursement channel only. Between FY 2025 and FY 2026, I think we have been sort of impacted by two issues, both of which you highlighted earlier. The first of which is when the largest bank in the country decided to do a refresh cycle of close to about 16,000, 18,000 ATMs early last year. They were trying to replace ATMs which were set up in 2012, 2013, 2014, through what was a Ministry of Finance-led public procurement process, because most of these ATMs had become quite old and needed a compliance as well as software upgrade as per the RBI mandate. Now, the MSPs who had deployed this 2012 onwards, were very keen to retain or defend the revenue share, as a result of which we saw significant competitive intensity in this public bidding process, which led to a significant depression of prices. We had called this out publicly and we said, "These are not price points that as CMS we would be comfortable partaking in, and we will sit this wave out." We would want to let this dust settle, and we will wait and see how things change. But it meant that people who had won those contracts now had to deploy them at those price points. Combined with this, we had the issue of one of the largest MSPs who was exiting the market due to various issues. The combination of both of these resulted in nearly about 20,000 ATMs going out or shutting down temporarily out of the total outsourced base of 140,000 ATMs. To us, it creates two issues in the short term. Choosing to sit out of the brown label, of course, creates short-term growth headwinds. The impact on the broader MSP ecosystem also means that in our cash management business, where we are dependent on those customers to outsource to us, it creates a temporary delta between what we were servicing versus the cost of changing the routes and reorganizing our net fleet. Sorry, fleet and resource net, route networks. However, as we stand today, we are fairly confident our market has hit a bottom. Banks have recalibrated and changed the awards from MSPs who are not able to deploy to the ones who are more well-capitalized and able to roll out ATMs. In the next six months, we think there will be close to about 15,000 ATMs, which will add to the 120,000 and get back to 135,000 ATMs. This is across multiple banks. Of course, the largest bank has the largest role to play here, but there is a long tail of deployments. As CMS ourselves, for example, if you take DOP, that is an order which is in the process of being executed, should get done. So there is a fairly granular breakdown of which are the contracts being executed by whom, which will lead to the recovery of the outsource market. Then as we head into FY 2027, that is also where we see many RFPs which are today work in progress, either being awarded or going to be soon awarded, will lead to incremental deployments in the market. Which means by FY 2027, we should be back from an outsourced base of ATMs to where we started at 140,000. Now, that is one journey in terms of the overall numbers, but I think there are two other key interesting data points here, which is when I say bottoming out, one aspect is the volumes, and the second is really on the price points. As some of the tier 2 MSPs have struggled and have dedicated capital to some of these large orders which they are not able to execute, it has also meant that in the last 18 months, there has been a smart and sharp recovery of prices which are being bid for contracts. From the low of INR 10.5 that we had seen early last year, and which had sort of prompted us to take a second look at brown label ATMs as a whole, we are now seeing it inch upwards and get closer to INR 19. At least, the second and third case that you see here are RFPs which have been awarded out, and the fourth one is in the process of being bid. The other key data nuance I would like to highlight is when you look at our market share. As the largest CIT company, one of the playbooks that we have crafted over a period is to figure out how do we take advantage and navigate volatility in the market. Anytime there has been a crisis or any sort of a short-term disruption, be it demonetization or COVID, all of those have led to us being able to increase our market share in a short period. The funda behind that is simple, which is when you are working with banks who care a lot about risk and reputation management, there is a flight to safety. They want to work with players who are better capitalized, who offer a better safety net in terms of such adversity. In a way, that is also what allowed us in the last two to three years to grow from 51% to 57% market share. When I come back to this framework of looking at the different outsourcing models and what it means, today, it is roughly a revenue pool for the industry of about INR 6,500 crores. Of the INR 6,500 crores, INR 1,500 crores is coming from white label. I think with the increasing interchange in that segment, we are looking very actively and interestingly at it, and we constantly keep evaluating optionalities of either entering the space ourselves or thinking of different inorganic options. But of the INR 5,000 crore market that exists in terms of bank outsourcing, one major change can come from the fact that whenever public sector banks switch from in-house to outsource, that can mean an increase of as much as 80% in the overall market opportunity. Let us spend a little time thinking about what does all of this mean from a perspective of growth and between FY 2027 to FY 2030, what are ways to think about modeling for this business? I showed you earlier in the slide that in the next 18 months, based on orders which are being executed, we think that the market should expand from 250,000 to 260,000 and lead to the outsource base growing from 120,000 to 144,000. There are close to about 5,000 bank branches being opened every year by both private and public sector banks. Those will all necessitate an ATM to be set up with them. Not all of those ATM will get outsourced. Some of them, the bank will do themselves, some they will give it to us. But the ramp-up from 260,000 to 275,000 over a three-year period will be a combination of bank branch expansion and the fact that this interchange increase from 17 to 19, which has just happened in May this year, has not fully played out. I think once the dust settles and we see banks getting back to expanding the network, that will also lead to an expansion of the offsite ATMs. All of this, when translated into outsource space, will result in that number going from 145,000 to 170,000. Another key driver that will come into play is today we are one of the only two companies who have an integrated end-to-end solutions offering. The number of MSPs who are not fully integrated but willing to participate in either managed service, BLA opportunities have now reduced significantly. At some point, the consolidated nature of this industry will have its tailwind and with respect to how pricing and unit economics of this industry will get better. With that, we see the roadmap from INR 1,300 crores of ATM solutions revenue in FY 2025 to be able to grow up to INR 2,200-INR 2,250, 11% CAGR as a combination of market growth, share shift, and pricing increase. Switching to the next business around retail and currency logistics. As Rajiv Kaul said, this is really a combination of two of our consumption-oriented businesses. Both of these seek to play a role in the cash cycle once a currency is withdrawn from an ATM. In enabling that currency, once it is spent at a retail store, we either work with a bank partner or a retail merchant to be able to find a way to get it back into the banking system. When I say get it back, it doesn't mean it is just a plain vanilla cash pickup service. All of what goes into it is how do we integrate technologically with that retailer? How do we use our infrastructure and processing services to offer real-time reconciliation and settlement cycles? When you look at the market overall, it's a fairly large TAM opportunity. India, by and large, is a very consumption. 60% of India is consumption-oriented. But even if I take retail stores which are 30 to 40 lakh, what is today outsourced market for cash management is a very small subset of it, just about 5%-6% of outsource at 2 lakh touchpoints. Even if I have to sort of draw a potential around just the organized retail market, that's about 5 to 6 lakhs, which means it offers itself anywhere between a 2x to 3x potential for further headroom growth. Not even talking about those chains which will organically expand, but just based on what is outsourced today versus not managed by cash management. The currency usage in retail continues to be extremely strong and resilient as well. Across both metros and rural, on a year-on-year basis, in the same set of stores. So when I look at the set of stores that we were servicing in FY 2024 March versus FY 2025 March, and I just compare what is the cash intensity and spends that are happening in those locations, it's fairly steady and stable. 28 lakhs versus 27 lakhs, 42 lakhs versus 42 lakhs. Both of this has meant that the growth of points in retail cash has been quite high in the last three to four years at about 15% CAGR. While the bank outsource has grown itself, what you will also see is that the direct to retail, which is something that we pioneered as CMS in the last three years, has been at the forefront of expanding the market opportunity. Three years back when we decided that depending on the banks alone to expand retail offering based on their needs around CASA, treasury management, and using retail cash pickup as a way to enter a new account for payment services was not fast enough to meet our growth aspirations. We went about creating sales capabilities and taking this industry sector by industry sector. We started the year before last with QSR and large retail format. We feel very proud and privileged today to be able to partner some of the largest names in the industry today. Reliance Retail, DMart, Aditya Birla, all pretty much working with us either with majority volumes or exclusivity. Pizza Hut, KFC, for example, on the QSR side. Last year, we went and sort of broke into the whole e-commerce and logistics space. Delhivery, Blinkit, Meesho, all pretty much accounts where we have a large share of their wallet spend. This year we are targeting NBFCs, microfinance, and broader BFSI. Proud to say we have just sort of been able to onboard and work with the likes of large Manappuram, Muthoot Finance, across their thousands of branch networks. That execution and a certain aggression with respect to focusing on gaining revenue share has allowed us to grow our overall market share from 34% to 38%. I think this is a trend that you will continue seeing in terms of how we operate in the retail space. The playbook that we were able to perfect on the ATM, which is to keep growing market share. Increasing market share at different points unlocks different value and different opportunities. Our focus in retail is to be able to do the same, which is to keep growing 38% and get that share to a level where we will be able to use that as a lever to unlock different value opportunities and bottom-line potential. We will sort of keep at it from that perspective. Our currency-in-transit business, which historically was somewhat distinct from retail. We ran routes which were dedicated for banks, which was catering more to the needs of bank branches and currency chest, over the last few quarters has started to collaborate and create synergies with the retail cash business. As Rajiv shared, one of the key changes in the way banks are looking at currency chests is they are consolidating a lot of those. Which means that when they think about tier 2, tier 3 cities, the investments that we as CMS have made in upgrading the quality of our infrastructure and vaults and processes in all of those locations serve as very powerful ways for them to get the same benefits as if they had a currency chest. So in a way, their bank branches and their chests become customers to us, just like our retail customers, with the same technology integration, real-time reconciliation, and settlements. We think the market should grow faster. We are assuming 200,000 market to go to a 300,000 market over a five-year time span. I think clearly the upside potential here is on the market growth potential. With just the way we are executing both on direct to retail and expanding our reach coverage and being very aggressive on pricing with the intent to grow market and create a much more sticky revenue stream with direct to retail. I think that is a potential that can clearly be on the upside. But what you will also increasingly see here is that business point growth will not always translate into revenue growth. One of the key things that still differentiates India from any of the global analogues is that mostly internationally, the revenue share for a CIT from ATM operations versus retail operations are roughly equal. India has evolved differently. What we earn for servicing an ATM today, we earn less than half of that for retail cash. Though the cost to serve or the effort many times is much more. We visit an ATM something like 10 to 12 times a month. We end up having to visit a retail every single day. I think that's just the way the market structure is and the way it has evolved. What it means is servicing a point, which is less than half the realization and visiting every single day. Over a period, I think as market share and revenue share increases, the potential for us to start translating that into a differential service delivery model or in terms of pricing can mean that it unlocks a very different quality of earnings potential. Whether we start visiting stores on alternate day basis, or whatever sort of changes we want to make. One of the ways in which we are trying to attack this market is to switch it from a fixed cost, route-based service to a variable cost, gig-based model, which Rajiv will share with you shortly. I think with that, I'll get Rajiv back on stage to talk about our technology business. The last business segment, business line, tech and payment solutions, today has three businesses inside. It has two niche businesses around our ALGO software for banks. It also has our payment cards where we are issuing and personalizing financial cards for banks, debit and credit. But the main business, which is the most exciting and the larger one here, is really around our Vision AI business. I hope most of you got a chance to see some of our use cases which we've developed over the last one year, which needs a lot of investment. But we're quite thrilled about how this business has scaled up. If you think about the numbers, a 90% CAGR in the last three years, in revenue. If you look at the number of points, 2,000 points have grown to 30,000 points. You could never do this as a physical logistics business. It takes a lot more time to do it. But given the quasi SaaS nature, the tech nature of the business, I think these are very stellar and stunning numbers for us. More importantly for our share. We think of we entered the business with a small acquisition. We built it, and we won some large contracts, executed it. Sometimes these contract executions, there are always things which will go wrong. But in this period, you've seen all of it. And the market share has gone from 7% to 25% in the BFSI space, primarily the ATM and bank branch space. When I think about what we have done with this business, it's a perfect example of what I refer to as our platform approach. What I mean by a platform approach here is we sort of were the laggards in the space because there were very high-quality companies working in the space, and we couldn't find an entry. We felt there was a dislocation post-COVID, and we entered the space with a small acquisition, just testing the waters. We used that to start bidding and winning contracts and partnering with other partners outside with hardware and software to ramp up on our quality metrics. In the meanwhile, we started building some of these capabilities in-house. Today, I think we've built our entire stack in-house from the platform, the software, the hardware, the chipset. Therefore, we're able to customize solution sets far more faster for different verticals as we try and tackle them. Earlier this year, a couple of months ago, we announced our intent to acquire Securens, and Sunil Rudrappa is here. He's the founder of, he's the pioneer in this space. We've been working with them as a partner, competitor for the last four or five years, and we looked at that as a stepping stone for us to think about how do you scale and have a clear, distinctive market leadership. Once, I think we'll hopefully close this process in the next week or 2 weeks, but post that, I think our 30,000 sites should ramp up to 45,000 sites. Again, scale is important. Market share is important. It sort of gives us an opportunity to be able to then invest much more on the technology side because we have a broader base of installed base to first protect, deliver excellence to customers, and also use that to lower a cost. Now whether that cost, lowering cost becomes better margin or becomes more aggressive pricing take share, I think that will be determined by at that time with market forces. I think, the TAM opportunity on this is, and a lot of you get very excited about it. We like to taper down expectations. For us, this is crawl, walk, run. We were zero, then we got INR 100 crore revenue, and now we're trying to build it up. When I think of it, the space which we understand more, the BFSI, which is banks, ATMs, branches, very, very different solution set, NBFCs, insurance, MFI, and then finally, gold loan. If you think of all of them, the consideration is something similar. It's mostly around safety, right? It's about safety, protection of valuables. It's about consumer safety at ATMs. Therefore, the use cases aren't the same, but they can be easily modified. The most complex here is really bank branches. The number of sites there is almost 350,000, 400,000 sites. Potential market TAM, right? Less than we're doing 30,000 of this right now. The annual service revenue, we think, is roughly around INR 2,000 crore out here. Importantly, if you think of it right now, we've been able to penetrate and bid and win and execute at a variety of marquee names across the sector. You think of SBI, you think of Axis, you think of ICICI Bank of Baroda, Manappuram, IIFL Finance, HDFC. I think in a period of 3, 4 years, we've been able to. Now again, this works why? It works with obviously a good solution. But that's what I think the CMS name does, right? There is a lot of trust and faith the CMS will execute complex projects. Therefore, the willingness of a large B2B customer to give us an entry into a new sector and a new segment is always far higher than with somebody else. That becomes sort of a catch for us as we look for opportunities to partner with companies. Many people want to come and partner with us because if they have a good solution, we are able to help them scale that far faster with the repetition we have with banks. The emerging opportunity here, this is in quick commerce, I think last year we had a good win, and we then took it forward to win other brands. I think we already got 3 or 4 brand names which are working with us, including Blinkit and BigBasket, Patanjali. But that's we think, again, this could be a much larger opportunity, but I think the solution set we are focusing on right now, I think, is a INR 1,000 crore annual TAM opportunity. Different sales cycle. It's not about getting thousands of branches same time, so the returns are very different. But our software, our proof points, our pilots are working, and therefore every customer always says, so long sales cycle because very good, it's a solution led selling. The final one which we started examining is a huge TAM, more than a INR 5,000 crore TAM. Had its own nuances, had its own challenges, but we made a small entry when we think of right now in shipping and telecom and EV, we're trying to enter and understand the needs and think, can we be a partner here with them? There's a much broader business here around government and smart cities and railways, which we sort of stayed away from because that's not. In our risk-return marginal safety metrics, it doesn't sort of fit in. I think we sort of understand these spaces well, and we want to work in this space right now. Even this infra side, I think we've been lucky and fortunate that we started getting good proof points. We're working with Adani, we're working with Hero, we're working with some of the EV charging companies out there with our solution set. I think huge TAM. Don't get overexcited. I think there's this, that we have to prove ourselves and build our business in each one of these. I will state that we will remain focused first and foremost on BFSI because that is our core strength. There's also optionality, which Sunil Ji has done, which is trying to think about how do you think of this business model from an international perspective. For us, we just haven't had the bandwidth to go think international. But there is a use case saying, can you deliver this as an outsourcing service for different markets? I think that's something which we'll have to take a hard call on because needs a big investment in sales and marketing. But when and where are we going to invest that money? Because that has a gestation period. Coming to our niche businesses, I'll talk about software. I'll talk about MVS, multi-vendor software. This is something which is already powering the world's largest ATM network at SBI. What it basically simply does is converts an ATM from a cash dispense, cash accepting machine into more of a marketing tool, a mini branch where a consumer or account holder can transact at the bank. They could be opening accounts, it could be opening a fixed deposit, or it could be taking a loan. But more importantly, it allows the bank to market to you based as your preferences, based as your profile. Are you an HNI? Are you what? And they, as you put in your card or you put in the QR code from a UPI, you will be able to get a very different look and feel, which will be tailored to you. Instead of it being a generic sort of dumb screen where you go and say withdraw INR 2,000, INR 10,000. I think that is what we have done. We have been able to successfully now win this at ICICI Bank, which is a large, huge bank, and we are right now developing the software and customizing for them. Hopefully, we will go live in 2026. But again, we have 68,000 on site. Niche, good software business, high ROCs, not a huge category. But it is important to give you this explanation because this gives you an idea of the optionalities which get created if and when we find other solution sets to sell to banks. And why that is important is there is, and some of you are from banks, massive spends on technology. Now, I am not saying we are targeting the massive spends, but I think there are massive spends on technology. For us, we are a perfect platform for good founders who have built software or payment-related businesses, niche businesses, are able to work with one or two midsize bank, but will not be able to bid or work with some of the larger banks. They just will not be able to make the entry because a large bank will not want to depend on something important on a small company, and that is where CMS comes in, both from a reputation risk and a proof point of view. And when we work in these businesses, we are working with the tech teams at the banks. Establishing credibility with the tech teams helps because you are able to go back with a better solution or a different solution, and they will look at you seriously. To summarize, if I think about the Vision AI, the ALGO MVS, and the payment cards business. The payment cards business is really linked to financial inclusion, number of bank accounts. Each account will get a debit card or a credit card at some point of time or frequency. We think this is sort of a modest growth business, 7%-10% sort of growth business. Again, like ALGO, is a very high ROC business, and therefore, we are happy to be in a niche till the return metrics are very good. ALGO, I think we have cracked the toughest and the biggest bank. We have got the next one. Hopefully over the next 3, 4 years, we are able to win in the broader top 5 banks. And I think that will help us grow the base of ATMs we serve from at least from 68,000 to 100,000. Vision AI is something where we are setting ourselves with fairly aggressive targets. We are saying we are at 30,000 sites today. We want to grow this to 80,000 sites in the FY 2025 to FY 2030 period and take a market share in BFSI from 25% to 40%. If we are able to execute on this, we are talking about a business which is roughly less than INR 240 crores, getting to INR 500, INR 600 crores. So at least doubling, maybe more. I will again asterisk this and say the optionality in this business is actually far more than we have any other business segment because there is so much we still have to discover, and it could just be cracking a new business segment in Vision AI, and that could scale. It could be getting the right fintech platform, which we could help drive different growth. Because this base is small, the base is like INR 250 crores. Adding new business lines of INR 50, INR 100 crores on top of it could be far easier, but we don't want to forecast that today because it's not something we have a clear path to. But the optionality would be to think of this business actually growing faster than what it even shows here. Importantly, in the current mix, the contribution of revenue from Vision AI, which is currently at 50%, will ramp up to 70% by FY 2027 and then the thought of keeping a steady of 70% contribution till FY 2030. So that sort of gives you a deeper dive into the three business lines. I know this may take a little bit of orientation compared to how we explained our businesses before. We will try and give you both reflection of the older way of stating revenues and the newer way so that you get aligned to this going forward. Coming to growth and to summarize what we think about, I will talk about the short term, which is this year, and then we will go back and summarize how we think about FY 2030, both from organic basis and also from an inorganic basis. FY 2026 is not off to a good start. Not a good start. We talked about in Q1, I think we have seen very muted consumption in the broader economy. We have seen rain play havoc in Q2 across the country and still continues to play havoc. That affects mobility, affects consumption, affects farmers, affects low middle class in many ways. I think larger FMCG companies are also alluding to that impact in Q1 and Q2. That's going to be an issue for, and will unfortunately get our FY 2026 or 2030 off to a weaker start, right? Therefore, we will have to work harder in H2 and other years to make up to our growth ambitions. I think we talked about this. The problem with consumption really is that our business is beautiful. It's a services recurring revenue business basis, which has reasonable operating leverage till you are growing well. But when you have a little bit of ATM transactions go down or retail consumption goes down, the variable revenue of what you can earn on the machine sort of goes down. It has a straight bottom line impact. The second thing is the whole RFP process which Anush talked about, which actually resulted in the ATM base shrinking for us. The entire disruption which has happened in the industry, and that's why when this happened in February and March and many people very excited about the potential for us, I'm so very excited the opportunity for consolidation increases. However, we kept saying in Q4 and Q1, "Let the dust settle." I think the dust is settling now, and that's why we're standing in front of you. I think once we feel confident the dust is settling down and the cycle is turning in this, that's where we want to come and start giving some forward-looking statements. Finally, I think there is an interesting development where one of the largest banks of the country is taking a stab at outsourcing cash management of in-house machines and some offsite machines for just cash management basis. Hasn't really happened by a PSU bank till now. Just cash management. No managed services, no brown label, nothing else. That RFP process has gone through its discovery phase because it's tricky. There is some result in the RFP process one is moved to RFP process two. As the bank decides to figure out how they move forward on this, we've had to step up and also support the bank, otherwise that would have disrupted many of their ATMs. That's an investment we've made consciously. I think we have a reputation and a brand of working and supporting banks during tougher times. It does have a drag on our revenue and profits, but I think that will be hopefully short-term, and I think that investment will be very helpful when you think over the next three to five years to create a good case study of a public sector bank outsourcing almost 10,000 ATMs for cash management, and that would become a reference point for other public sector banks to think about and study and see if that makes sense for them. Having said that, we are also making some investments which are very critical. Some investments like international sales and marketing, we are deferring. I think our growth opportunity in the current market in Vision Edge is significant, so we'll focus on that right now. From our core businesses, the first thing we've done is increase investment tech. We've taken almost half a percent more of our revenue into technology investments, creating some of the scenarios we're seeing in HAWKAI. Puneet is leading a massive exercise where we are looking at applying machine learning-based algorithms for our entire 4,000 route logistics. We have automated this over time, but I think we feel there is opportunities from pilots to get the next big scale in productivity jump. This costs money, but we think we are one of the few companies which can make this investment. We have some of the people in-house, we can spend the money, and we have a very large fleet where we run 4,000 fleet. Think of even getting a 5%-10% saving, I think has a massive impact in FY 2028 and whatnot for us. We are making almost a INR 15 crore investment in creating a gig-based variable cost model for our Suru and for direct to retail. This is right now running in parallel to our current business because you can't disrupt the business you want. But in this year itself, hopefully by Q3, this will be stable at scale, and therefore we should be able to replace and reduce some of fixed costs by Q4 to make this a very efficient, lean, mean model, as I call it, to help expand the retail market from 200,000 points to 300,000 points. Hopefully, if we increase our market share there, that has a big impact. I think Anush Raghavan is being a little bit cautious. We would like to be cautious as of now. But the operating leverage which can come into the retail business as you penetrate this with a low-cost offering, expanding the market, because the market opportunity is there. If you can make it work, then small changes in price have a very significant impact on your bottom line, and also revenue, when you think you've gone to the critical mass of market share. Therefore, think of it like the ATM business. In the ATM business, at IPO time, we are roughly earning INR 7,700 per ATM per month. I get frustrated sometimes at the prices we work at. When you think of India, this is about 12 trips a month. 12 trips a month with a whole crew, vault running, back office running, entire infrastructure, you're getting like 600 bucks a trip or something. That's ridiculous. That price has changed to INR 11,500 now in four years. That's a 50% increase. Prices can move 2%, 3%, they can go down 5%, 10%, or they can have significant moves. I think in our head, we have a threshold. We think if you get to a particular market share number, that's when you can go request or ask for a fair price. Till then, India will remain a very price-conscious market at every industry. Therefore, you have to learn to expand the market by having a low-cost offering. Of course, quality, I don't want to get the jokes and the ads, which are all about the price conscious of Indian consumer and customer, but that applies, and that's relevant to us. Similarly, in retail, we have different market share goal ambitions. Whether that happens organically or inorganically, I cannot predict it right now. But as we get there, I think the flow-through, if we can make this base happen, we don't want to just focus on 100,000 retail points, which is what we are doing till 2021. Then we took a very different approach, saying very aggressive pricing. Get the customer to use your service, expand the market, take market share away. You saw the retail points growth from 100,000 to 200,000. Hopefully, if we succeed, that'll go from 200,000 to 300,000 or 400,000. If our market share goes to the right level, I think that's when we are able to go and say, today in retail, what we charge for roughly INR 4,500 a month for going to a retail store or NBFC branch 25 times a month. 25 times. That's very low pricing for the level of work we're doing. But you think in terms of any benchmark, I think that pricing has significant upside potential when the market allows for it or the market is willing to pay for it. But for us, till then, we want to continue to operate at our margin ROC profiles the way we are doing right now. If these two things happen, then by hopefully FY 2026 end, now this is a very aggressive commitment to make, but it is a direction. We will look to reduce our operating cost, or I would say 10% of our workforce, whether it is through attrition or consolidation, but that would give us a leaner engine as we think about the next 2, 3 years. And that could help in either higher margins or it could help in recovering the margins we have invested in or could just become more competitive to get more shares. We will see the playbook at that time. We are also cognizant of the fact that we have built our managed services business, the ALGO or the ATM management solutions business today, on the back of a PSU refresh cycle, which we were able to play to and get some good growth. There is now an opportunity in the private sector banks, where two large private sector banks are also going to have a contract renewal cycle. And given the position we have created and the base we have created, we hope to get some good business out of it this time. And finally, I think, the one big investment we had to make, which sort of hurts, but we had to make this investment this year, was really about. In our business, we talk about services revenue. Our total revenue also has something called automation, which is like a product revenue. I personally do not like the revenue type. I like the revenue and the margins. I do not like the revenue type because it does not give you consistency. You can have INR 100 crore a year, INR 200 crore a year, then INR 50 crore a year. And then we want to build predictability. We want to build boring businesses, right? We are happy to have INR 550 crore services revenue growth for three quarters, no problem. But I do not want to go to INR 750, then back to INR 550. It gets very difficult to explain. So over time, we are trying to reduce our dependence on this business, and we had an opportunity this year where a very leading large private bank, we actually had an opportunity, had an order, to have INR 100 crore one-time revenue. And with whatever margins we would have got on that in FY 2026. And there was an option to also from the bank to think of this as more of a services recurring revenue with some investment needed from our side over a longer period of time. So we put the bullet on this and said, "Let us do the right thing with the longer term." This will be a much better margin accrual and more sustainable business. Getting INR 100 crore business now, I do not know how to show this next year. And we said, "Take the bullet, bite the bullet, and convert this in," and hopefully this will actually give us a better base of business walking into FY 2027 and FY 2028. So, I think that is on FY 2026. I want to move to FY 2027 and FY 2030. Twenty-seven is more nearer term, and therefore estimate. FY 2030 is, of course, potential. We will be pragmatic about FY 2030. We are not here to give big, huge numbers. I think we want to commit to what we think is possible for us based on what we see today. In the ATM managed solutions business, which is a INR 3,000 crores, Anuj already talked about it. I think the near term is going to roughly a INR 1,600 crore revenue, and midterm is about INR 2,000 to INR 2,150 crore revenue size out there. Sort of 11% CAGR. This business in the last four years has grown 18%, so we are forecasting it to be lower. Primarily also because we haven't been very bullish on the transaction BLA segment. We will be very picky and choosy. Again, when you see the whole segment, there are some higher growth businesses, which would be, let's say, ATM cash management. There will be some lower growth businesses, which we would label ATM transaction business, something like that. Merging that, I think you get a blended growth like that. When you think about the retail business, again, it's a 11% sort of growth potential, which is INR 650 to roughly INR 1,000, INR 1,100 crores. Looks a little low from all the talk we are doing on retail, but again, keep in mind this also includes the cash in transit. The cash in transit business, I think, has grown 10%-11%. I do think right now banks are not adding branches at the pace they were. This could change, and therefore we want to have that. I think that will be a little bit slower growth, high single digits. I think on the retail side, we will have very strong growth, mid-double digits growth in terms of number of points. But I think our playbook today is to be very aggressive in price to get our share. So we still think we should be able to get a 10%, 12%, 13% growth in this business over the coming five years. Finally, I think we talk with tech and payment solutions, where we are sort of forecasting a 20% CAGR. So we are right now assuming the first six months. In this five-year cycle, the first six months are almost like a write-off in my head. It's like this has been pretty painful. I don't know when things turn. So right now, looking at the immediate past, we want to be a little bit careful how we forecast the future. As things improve or get better, we see a solid Q3, Q4, end of year, I will be happy to come and tell you that we can up this direction or ambition for us. Therefore, total revenues of INR 2,180 crores. Again, services revenue, in your head, you should add about INR 100 crores of product. Could be INR 100, could be INR 150, could be INR 200. I don't know how much it is. But roughly going to a INR 2,700, INR 2,800 crore revenue by FY 2027 and about INR 3,800, INR 3,900 crore by FY 2030. Sort of 12% CAGR from FY 2025 to FY 2027 and from FY 2025 to FY 2030. So, simple, boring, double digit. But for us, if we can do this and maintain a high margin profile and higher-- I don't think growth is a challenge. I think growing at the margin profile we have is very difficult. I do not know of companies which have a margin profile like us, ROCs like us, and do high growth, like high growth meaning 15%-20%. I think for us, we had to balance, as I always said, growth, market share, margins. For us, keeping our margin profile in a tight range and high ROC is about 20% will be a priority out here. I do want to talk about inorganic growth. Sorry, if I can have attention, please. When I think about inorganic growth, we have a very strong track record of having done safe M&A over the last 10 years. We have done almost six deals, small to medium size, payback period of less than four years, three in consolidation, three for expansion. For us, we are very, I would say, conservative when we think about M&A. Very aggressive when we want to approach M&A, but very conservative when we have to finally transact. As I said on many of our calls, we are not here to give exits. We are here to partner with people. We are here to buy business where we can create value. We love partners who are willing to, and founders who are willing to work with us over the long term. I think for us today, as you think of us, we have done extensive work. In the last two years, we have done due diligence at an extensive level, I think on four or five companies in digital payments, loan collections, logistics, including e-com and bullion. We dropped the deals for multiple reasons. Pricing is easy to say we drop for pricing. But I think for us, it really comes down to culture, how the industry is going. We looked at e-com logistics when Delhivery was going very aggressive pricing. We said just stay out of it. We do not want to get to a sector where the market leader is unleashing a crazy price war. Therefore for us, as you go into digital payments, there is a lot of excitement about that sector, but regulation can change. Also when we were looking at companies, we realized that what RBI just announced in terms of what they wanted from compliance from payment aggregators was something we discovered as an issue. We said this is sort of the way payments are shown. There is a lot of other businesses going on out there which will not work to our compliance and our governance frameworks. Not at all in a public market company. For us, our framework is very simple. We are open to partnering with founders and looking at only control. We are not a VC. We are not here to do. A lot of people say, "You are tech, why do not you guys go invest 5%, 5%, 10% stakes?" That is not what we are here for. We will focus on control. We will focus on either a full buyout. Buyouts would be in the sectors we understand. If we are expanding or in new sectors, we would like to get only control, not full buyout. We would not understand the sectors fully. But for us, it always boils down to, are we able to work with the founder? Is the founder able to work with us? Is there alignment with them and us? Then, massive analysis on build and buy. Do we want to keep building? Which we have done in most of our core business. In cash management, we could have bought companies. We said we will build. We will take market share when we get it. We do not want to buy market share by throwing money at it. Therefore, I think for us, it is also but important today we realize, I think the last two years, what we learned is better appreciation of execution risk, right? As we are working in a more complex set of businesses across a variety of customers today. I mean, 10 years ago, we worked with only managed service providers. Then we started working with a few banks. Now we work with almost every bank, every retail company. There is always a delay in things. There is technology integration, there is rollout integration. I think for us to now realize there is a price to pay for a good quality scaled asset operating well, I think we are willing to pay for it. So I think we are actively evaluating deals. I have nothing to report for you today, but I would say that this, we feel the timing today, or I mean in the coming months, is far better than I have seen before, just simply the way how public markets and how private markets are working. Given our understanding of the spaces, I think there could be interesting opportunities for us to examine in the next one year, which could have a disproportionate impact on our projections as we go forward. I do want to give an example here. This primarily came from some of the feedback. People saying, how do companies operate? Who do you compare you to? We do not know what to benchmark you to. So we are going to try and take an attempt at this. I have just a couple of slides to end. Brink's is the global market leader for cash management, right? When we entered CMS in 2009, 2010, Brink's was the brand. That is the name people knew. CMS was like, "Yeah, it is a good company." But for us to beat Brink's was the first challenge. Today I am happy to say that as a size of just within a cash management sub-sector, we would be almost a 10 times size of Brink's in India. But globally, Brink's is a huge brand because they are focused on core markets. In the U.S., they are a clear number one. They have taken a very aggressive consolidation strategy. They almost spent $1.5 billion in buying G4S and Dunbar to become a clear market leader in the U.S. Then they have taken an approach to managed services like we did, and they spent $250 million expanding into broader managed services vertical to integrate. This year they announced this investment in an MVS software company called KAL Software. So key financials, just for reference for people. $5 billion revenue, 12% constant currency revenue growth over the last three years. A good 18% EBITDA margins, and almost a $5 billion market cap trading at about 30 times P/E and about a 20% stock price CAGR over the last three years. Now, I am not saying we are Brink's. I am not saying anything. You can decide on your own. But I thought I will just leave one name for you to think about when you think about CMS. More importantly, I think the right lens for CMS is not global, right? I think India is a very different market. I think when I think about India and not from a stock market, just from a business perspective, we have taken an attempt, and this is with due respect to all the analysts here. You are far smarter and sharper than us. This slide is basic input and feedback from some of you. We said, "Let us look at other route logistics companies." We put two, three there. There are many, but just two, three names out there. We put some financial parameters of the recent past out there to give you a comparison out there. We also then took some business services companies, right? We were careful not to go into, let us say a KFin Tech or a CDSL. We said let us take companies which are a little bit similar, maybe, right? I do not know if they are similar to CAMS or Quess, very different companies, very different operating margins, very different market shares. But we said let us take an attempt at that. Saying here is possibly, these are names I respect and say these are market leaders in what they do. They are good brands. They have established themselves over a decade or more. These are not new companies only, and therefore you have a history to looking at how these companies have emerged and what respect and value they have with customers. Some parameters will be similar, and some parameters will not be similar. But I think when you think about us, this is one more lens and prism for you to think about CMS, and you look at our metrics against them. I think we are a fantastic growth company at value prices. Now, any CEO job is to talk of the stock price. I normally do not talk up my stock price. But I just think that you have to think about what CMS does, the ROCE we create sustainably over time. I think my last comment to you really is that, I read this yesterday from Jim Simons' quote, which says, "The past performance is the best predictor of future success." Thank you. Sorry, I do want to wrap up out here because I do not want to forecast M&A in life because we cannot predict M&A and I do not know when it will happen. But the problem here is really about the revenue going from INR 3,900 to INR 3,800 revenue. But the split we see changing from the contribution from ATM management solutions to from 58% to 47%. The other businesses, the retail and tech business, will go from 40 to 50. So I think the tide would turn into the 50/50 balance by FY 2030. We have taken a stab at what we potentially could do with M&A. Now, the core business could go up or down a little bit more. I do not know. FY 2030 is very far away for us to gauge. But looking at the types of companies we have looked at and the type of companies we would like to buy, if we could buy them at the right price and whatnot, and the right structure. I think then, I think the opportunity you have to think about is we are a company sitting INR 1,000 of cash in hand. That INR 1,000 crores, if it is deployed smartly and well into something which makes logical sense for us and accretes, I think that could give us a big bump up over a 4 or 5 year period. 1 year period, I cannot predict, but I think over a 4 or 5 year period. Then we will still have cash to spare after paying dividends every year. I think the idea that with the FCF we have, our opportunity will always be about how to get investment, which we have led with CapEx for the last 3 to 4 years. Possibly, I think after FY 2026, I think our peak CapEx cycle may not be there. I think our peak CapEx cycle would be in FY 2026 for our current business, because they have achieved the scale and the FCF generation where they will fund their own growth for future. When I think about if M&A happens, right? It is a big if. I think in the sectors we like, I think that could give us a delta of almost INR 800, INR 900 crores on top of the revenue. If that happens, we get to a INR 4,500, INR 4,700 crore revenue. That revenue does not include product revenue, but it inches us closer to the 5,000 mark. More importantly, I think gets us back to a 16% CAGR, which is what we have done over the last 16 years. If we can get to that aspiration, I will be the happiest person in this room. We always read about the rule of 40, which is actually, I come from software, is relevant for SaaS and software businesses, which is revenue growth plus EBITDA margin. Services companies do not have a rule of 40. Services business have a rule of 35. Can this company or has this company demonstrated a rule of 35 over a successive period of time? I think we have done that from a revenue plus EBITDA growth over the last 10 years. Or we have done it for 8 of 10 years possibly. For us, I think the opportunity and the optionality, which we cannot forecast in this graph for you, is pricing is ridiculously low for what we do today. It will only change when there is consolidation. Some elements of our sectors are already showing strong consolidation moves. Some may take time. Our job is to make sure people are pushed towards consolidation. That is our job. To keep taking share and chipping away so that weaker players can exit over time. Our North Star is really maintaining a high margin profile. Many people want to ask that question, I know it will be the question, how will you balance margins with growth? We will not sacrifice ideally margins for growth. We will prefer to keep high ROCE, high margins. That is the playbook we understand. Finally, I think the toughest job for us every day is really capital allocation. How to use capital for creating the opportunities and optionality for all our stakeholders. There is a long disclaimer, please read, and then we can hopefully move to Q&A. Thank you. Thank you, Rajiv and Anush, for a very insightful presentation. I will request the management to take their seats on the stage. We will start the Q&A session. We have a couple gentlemen in black jackets out here, carrying mics. If you have a question, just raise your hand and we will pass the mic to you. Just allow the management a couple of minutes to settle in. It doesn't go down. Let's go. No, we are settled. We can start. All right. Let's go ahead. Let's start. Can Yeah. Hi, Rajiv. Is my voice all right? Not really. I can hear you, but it's not audible through the mic at least. You just speak closer to the mic. It's on. It's on. It's on. It's on. Okay. Hi, Rajiv. Is my voice audible now? Perfect. Great. Is it audible for all of you as well? Yes. Great. First and foremost, Rajiv, fantastic presentation. We love the insight that you and your colleagues have shared today. The simple question which I asked Sumeet when I met him this afternoon first is that you have INR 1,000 crores cash, right? Not all of it will be used for acquisition, and not all of it will be used for maintenance as well, and you believe that the business is currently undervalued. I see that we currently pay about 45% thereabouts annually as dividend. Given the fact that you understand capital allocation very well and the share prices are currently undervalued, right, in your opinion, and even to some of us as well, why wouldn't you just do a buyback? Because it's far more tax efficient than giving out a dividend where you pay a 38%, 40% marginal rate of tax, especially to, say, somebody like you, yourself, who's a very large shareholder. Your thoughts on it. By the way, I think it's far more efficient today than it was even about a year or so back. Me and Sumeet have exchanged some notes on it because today, mutual funds, for instance, are far more tax efficient and can surrender everything at a buyback without you having to worry about getting enough subscription. Thank you for the My name is Parish Singh Hani. Thank you for the comments and the question. I do not know how to say this without saying anything about the future too much, but I see a strong need for the cash. I think that would be a short, succinct answer. I cannot say more. However, we do not know, right? We do not know if it will get used or not. Last year, we thought we had a need for cash, but we tamped down our CapEx, and as we said, we jumped the dividend up, the board agreed, and we paid the dividend out. I think as stakeholders and shareholders, we are in the same boat as any other stakeholder. Of course, a foreign institutional investor is different and mutual fund is different. A PMS is different. Our understanding, Liberty, again, you have to think of our team. We are very raw. We are 3 and a half years out in public markets, right? We may be public market investors, but we are not public market experts. I think we are saying we see growth opportunity and use opportunity, which would be a far better way for us to use this money than to do a buyback. Having said that, if things change, I think that it will remain in our list. Our understanding is that dividend is more equal to all, and therefore, when we go ask for feedback, we get that. I think we take that feedback. We have that feedback from a few investors. Again, I actually do not know the stock prices today or yesterday, but my point is, yeah, by the time you do a buyback, I know the stock prices move. It is something which we are not expert at. Right? We will get to it. I think there will be a time when we will have no choice but to do it. But if we do our job well, we just keep pushing the envelope on growth opportunities. If you are going to be, let's say, only in one or two of these businesses, let's take a card business. We do not know how to invest. We want to be a niche player. We do not want to compete with the bigger guys. We do not have the wherewithal to become a number one there. But I think in our current businesses, there is very significant consolidation opportunity. It was there three years ago. We did not do it. We did not like the prices. We said we will not buy growth. We want to invest for growth. Buying growth is different. Again, we would like to be known for the ROCE, ROE, those profiles with decent growth rather than the opposite. Now, right or wrong, you are going to choose the sort of company you like, and that is who we are. Okay. Excuse me. Yeah, good afternoon. I seek an explanation about one of the slides that was shown. It was mentioned that the business generated per ATM differs from private sector bank ATMs to public sector banks and brown label ATMs and white label ATMs. Can you explain why this difference occurs? You or you want to? I think, yeah, let me take that. Fundamentally, it is because the nature of outsourcing and the scope of service is very different. If you take the three models that we explained, which is when the bank owns the asset and is only outsourcing the cash replenishment and managed services of it, I think we alluded to that being roughly 2 lakh-2.5 lakh per year revenue potential. Versus when the bank owns the asset, is outsourcing just the monitoring of the network, the cash forecasting, but not the physical cash replenishment itself. That comes down to close to about INR 5,000 a month or INR 60,000 a year, which is very different. Both of these are very different from the brown label where the asset is owned by the ATM deployer. The bank is only lending the brand and the currency to be loaded in the ATM. All of the activities around setting up the ATM, selecting the site, identifying the right location, for example, and running the ATM for a 7-10-year period is what is called brown label. This can be either fixed fee or transaction fee, as I said, but generally, those operate in the INR 40,000-INR 45,000 per month realization range. Short answer, it is different not because they are private or public sector bank. It is different because they are outsourcing different scope of services. Okay, thank you. The next related question is that the new business that you are seeking to get from the public sector banks, which category will they belong to? It could be either or. Banks have done both. They have at times chosen to outsource what was on-site ATMs managed by themselves or currency management to third parties, in which case it moves to the first category of managed services where they continue owning the asset and only outsource the managed services and cash replenishment. In many cases, they also tend to do this along with ATM refresh cycles, wherein the entire ATM site is replaced and you set up new ATMs on a brown label model. So it could be both. Thank you. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. I had a question on your response to the earlier gentleman's question on the use of cash. You referred to consolidation, right? I was thinking about what you said. In the core parts of your business where you are market leaders, right? Going for an acquisition of a competitor or something potentially could lead to some of your clients being all these large banks. They may not want too much exposure to you, and that might be a countereffect of that. If you are not going to spend a lot on that part of the business where you are market leader, automatically it kind of means that you are going to spend it on the adjacencies. Given that you have such a big cash pile, really, do you have that kind of opportunity to spend on adjacencies to that extent? That was my question. Thank you. I get confused. I can give you a short answer, yes, then I feel compelled to give you a little longer answer to explain our thinking. If you think of the deals we looked at and dropped, none of them was in the adjacencies. It was something we haven't done before. Now, why? I think adjacency is a broad word, right? We haven't done really consolidation opportunities. Should we do them? Absolutely. Will they have at a price we think is logical? Then we will do it, and that is why we haven't done it till now, right? People who say, "list then they start looking at our multiples." I said, "Our multiple? Your multiple? You are running a 12%-14% EBITDA margin business. How do you compare the multiples? I don't even understand it." I think for us, consolidation would be priority last. We are focused on expansion. I would also say diversification. Because if I do something new, right, we thought of loan collections. That is new. It is a risk. We are scared of diversification because it could just bomb. You don't understand it at all. Therefore, the position size you think of it and how you do it. Would we go for a full acquisition? Never. We would always want to have skin in the game with the founder saying, "Let's work on this together for the next five years." I think there are interesting opportunities there. We have seen I mean, looking just at the companies which have come to us inbound. We don't have an M&A engine where we are going and advertising. We are not a VC fund. But I think the number of people who are building interesting software companies, payment companies for banks, B2B, is good. For us, it's really about, is this a distraction? Is it just high growth? Where does it fit in? But there are significantly large size opportunities which are on the table today. Probability of happening, I don't know. Could be zero, could be 25%, we don't know. And therefore, coming to the earlier answer, I think we do see use of cash. Again, INR 1,000 crore is not what you need. You need business, you have capital, you have to put CapEx. And we are paying dividends. We had 25% average dividend, 40% last year. So I think, that's why we think that the cash is required right now. It's a great asset for our potential. I mean, the question is to you, would you look at our return ratios and give us a chance to invest the money for high growth, high return, or would you want to take the money and invest in something else? I mean, I would give you the chance to. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for that. Okay, in the front. In the front. Sorry. First row. Hello. Given that we had a decent tailwind, as I would say, in terms of industry, where one of the large player was exiting, and we do a lot of work in terms of picking up the pieces and be nice to our clients by taking a lot of costs on our thing. We had a pricing, RBI, raising the prices for the transaction. I thought we had a chance to grow at a higher rate, but first six months has not been so great. The question is twofold. One, are we being too nice to our clients? One. Two, in that context, we have a market share. We are not taking the advantage of pricing. Is that the nature of the business B2B? 13 clients, INR 50 crore each. If I just do math, maybe one-third or 40% of the business is given by those 13 large banks, probably. You kept on saying that pricing is an issue. Not only on the side of banks, but it is more on the sides of retail where we want to expand the market. The question is, when will we take the advantage of being market leader and price ourselves well? Thanks. Anush can reflect more, but I think it would be improper of you to think about six months as a reflection of, and ignore the results over the last five years. Yeah, completely. Right. I will be very assertive on that point. Yeah. Absolutely. That's all. I think what has happened in these six months, it has been a surprise for us also. I think it got accentuated, but we were, to be honest, we were very careful saying, "Don't get excited," because I never like consensus. I don't like consensus. Right. We said give it time, let the dust settle. Having said that, I think where we got surprised with was that ATM transactions fell off from April. I have no idea why. We'll never know till the future. We'll only see patterns and understand it. I think that put a lot of pressure into the ecosystem. The roll-outs which were planned and deferred. We walked into FY 2022, 2023, 2024. I'm talking psychologically as a team. Very high growth, executing well, almost everything working perfectly. FY 2025 was a dampener for our aspirations. We kept coming, explaining, we are like, "What is going on?" Suddenly things started shaking up in the system, whatever it was. As we saw the roll-outs of PSU banks awarded, we are like growth. Another 50% market share. Start adding capacity, because we wanted to get the revenue in the first month we could get it. Because it accrues very well for the quarter. We started investing into it. We did not do too much investment initially for the sold dislocation. There was a client request, and there was a client, I would say, a promise. I think we did a little extra work and went overboard with that. Good karma will pay back sometime. We will see when it does pay back. With hindsight, that is a decision we should not have made. That is a mistake we made. Would we do it differently? I do not know. It is very difficult to sort of look at one of the largest banks in the country, the largest customers, and say no. How? How do you say no? I mean, you can say no, but it is sort of, again, you have to think longer term and say, that is also not who we are, realistically. We are not people who just have said. I think our thing is deliver quality, deliver scale, deliver market share. Things will come over time. It puts a massive pressure on Puneet. Puneet has had sleepless nights for the last 6, 9, 12 months. He is going nuts trying to make our system more operatingly efficient. I like it. I always say this crisis makes you discover. Like what we try and do with Gig and what we try and do with machine learning-based route automation, we would not have done. Now, if we crack it, I do not know if we will crack it. If we crack it, I think we will be ahead of everybody else in the industry. I always like to dampen things. We do not know if we will get price or we get margins, or we may just use it to discount more. Who knows? I think it depends on that. For us, we got a little off guard. We got caught off guard by the trends coming together. I mean, 140,000 ATMs become 120,000 ATMs. Normally would have killed us. But we still tried to keep our base of ATMs roughly 72,000 become 70,000. But that 72,000 would have been 77,000. So you would have got that business, and revenue and margins has become a little bit of a drag. I think, for us, it is a painful time as we think. But what I think is this team works damn hard. If I talk to my family, they say, [Foreign language]. So [Foreign language]. We think it will bring out the best and maybe the next version of best in us. So be patient. And we did not talk about the EBITDA margins. Is there some directionally, given that technology solution is going to have a higher share, and operating leverage, should we think about margins being higher or the growth that we have assumed makes us believe that we will not want to grow on margins, but the growth is because the margins will be stable and we will give back all the gains to, say, client to kind of I think right now, margins are the toughest thing to forecast. Like the toughest thing to forecast always. We will have a dampener this year based on what is going on. When I think of FY 2030, logically, and I am saying just logically, it is not a commitment. I think if we can grow our revenue at double digits, 10%, 11%, 12% organically, I think margins could possibly improve. But having said that, we think in retail, we are going to be a price leader. Openly. We are telling you, we are telling our competitors, we are going to be a price leader. Our focus is not to take just a share. We are going to expand the market. We do not think those 100,000 points will happen if you do not have a right price offering. So, I think creating the market opportunity is far more important for us. I think in some of our businesses, we will have price increases. More rapidly than what we have maybe assumed in this model. But let that happen. This whole dislocation should lead to that. But we have a very different way of thinking. The industry has to do well. You cannot go and say, "I have 57% market share, humko paise zarur banana hai." [Foreign language] Aisa nahi chalta hai. [Foreign language] You got to leave money on the table. Right? As an investor, you got to leave money on the table for the next guy who is buying a stock from you. You are selling to somebody else. So for us, we think about saying, if interchange had not increased, I think we would have been in a really bad soup. But the interchange got delayed by a year. But you saw the pricing trend, not the same bank, but the biggest bank had INR 10. One of the good-sized banks has got a discounted price of INR 18.9. Now, whoever wins that contract will hopefully make decent money. So some of these things sort of-- We are a market where everything is regulated in a manner where you cannot predict it. We started with RBI regulation, which was a tailwind for us. Midway, it got stopped. Ki ab Gesaff sir aage nahi karne ka iske aage or whatever it was. [Foreign language] Suddenly, we have put in infrastructure for it. Then you have to sort of calibrate. So we have done all that calibration in our business over the last one and a half years. We do not talk about it because they have become like excuses. It is our job to handle this, right? So we say over cycles, our job is to ride this wave. But if you do one consolidation in the sector, that aspiration number will happen. But that's not what we are for. We're saying do investment that I would prioritize investment in expansion than consolidation. Sorry. Please ask Pankaj some questions. Yeah. Hi. The question is on the RMS side, where we have deployed some solutions on the retail side as well. When we are in talks with the team at our customer's end, what kind of deliberation do they have of building up some solutions on their own versus hiring someone like you? [Foreign language]. Somebody else, maybe. But Puneet can give you an answer on that. Right. And just on that continuation to that as well, what are we doing additionally now, as well as over a period of time to ensure that we remain relevant in this space, and keep on being relevant for our customers additionally? Okay. Am I audible? Sure. Okay. RMS as a solution is slowly moving from just being a theft prevention to actually replacing or automating the SOP at our customers. That gradual shift is happening. The base infrastructure is already there, so cameras and everything are there. We are now engaging with our customers saying, one, how do we first check the health of your equipment so that it is working? Then, what are the critical things? Let me give you an example. In a restaurant, when you go to a restaurant, a plate is given to you. Right? Does the billing happen to the number of plates that are served? How do you reconcile that? You have to put bodies to do that or [Foreign language] I just thought about it. [Foreign language] Kitne invitation card gaye aur kitni plates gayi. I think we should think of that, yeah. We are now working with our customers on understanding their SOPs, where do the leakages happen, where there can be revenue increase or cost decrease, and how can Vision AI now plug this gap on a real-time basis? These are interesting use cases that are coming, and that's where our technology team comes in, and you see new and new use cases coming in. If you are relevant to a customer and always discussing newer use cases, you will always be there in the business. If you are only in the infrastructure piece, someone will come and disrupt you. That's our strategy. Enter small, maybe at infrastructure, maybe at monitoring, and then quickly engage into more deeper use cases. It's also just investing more money. You won't get all of it will not pay back. Because machine learning-based automation costs money, getting the people. But right now we're facing, we're doing well, let's just invest. It's a headache, right? Because everybody wants a different thing. Ideally, as a former product guy, I would say just one standard product for your sector, that's it. But I don't think that's what's going to work here right now. Hopefully in 5 or 10 years, but right now, everybody can come and show you one new cool feature, then they want that. Right now, I think it is just a question of investing more people and money to develop this. Some of it pays well, some of it will not pay back. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Actually, two observations. One, UPI is becoming popular, so probably ATM usage will go down and become probably what you saw in the first two quarters, maybe a trend permanently. That's one observation. The second observation is, you showed a huge TAM. If you talk about buyback, it's a contradiction. If you talk about higher dividend payouts, then again, it's a contradiction. So comments on both these points. I'll finish the buyback question once and for all again. I don't think it makes sense. I didn't say we should do a buyback. There's a need, and we have to respect investors who think it's the right thing for us to do and clarify. Dividends, I think that's something which we would like to have a track record of paying dividends historically over time. We don't need cash flows all that much all the time. There are cycles, and therefore having a track record there. Last year, we didn't need the cash, we returned it. If we thought we needed acquisition money, like INR 2,000 crores, we would have kept it at that time, but didn't seem so. I think what we have today is a fine balance, what we need for our working capital, what we need for expansion, what we need for CapEx, and possibly if we're able to do a good acquisition. To your first question, Anush can talk about it, and give you some insight on how we think about ATM transactions and usage. I think it's a continuous process of change, isn't it? We've seen ATMs 10 years back, which were transacting 200 times a day. Then five years back, perhaps it moderated down to 120, 130. Today, the industry average is anywhere between 80 to 100. India is not unique. We've seen this operate in global markets. Unit economics and business models will adapt to deal with it. In India, one of the ways of adaptation has been that transaction pricing, which was earlier at INR 10, INR 12, assuming a certain amount of transactions per ATM, has now inched upward primarily to reflect the change in the circumstances. The other major change that's happening is that banks have realized that they will have to switch the outsourcing model from transaction base to a fixed fee base because they still cannot wish away an ATM. Now, instead of 100 customers, maybe 70 are using, but those 70 customers still need a service. Just because 70 is not the right number of transactions to cater to a INR 15 price or INR 18 price, it doesn't mean they can wish away the service. So industry in a way is moving from a variable to fixed model. To us, I think it brings in two things, right? When we think about ground level, our whole thesis around being very careful about where we deploy capital and preferring to seek a margin of safety and predictability of revenues versus hoping for outsized returns has generally played well for us. The second is the way we have structured the cash logistics part of the business, which is not linked to direct ATM usage, but more to ensuring that a bank has the most efficient use of currency which is going into it through our alternate day visits. In some cases, we visit an ATM twice a week, not even thrice a week. But the way we manage the route logistics and the cost associated with that activity are also consequently different. I think the areas of omission and commission are always known in investing. But for us also, we think about it when we sort of step, not step out, but in the 14,000 ATMs which got awarded the RFPs, I think we took about 1,000. Just because we had to be with the customer. Otherwise, we would have done zero. That kills your growth, but that saves you all the money because now we didn't predict this number to, the transactions will go down like this. Now, this may stabilize. Q3 normally starts going back up. Q4 again goes back up. For us, I think our dependence on the transaction model is 8% of revenue today, and we're happy to grow it at, it was 15, we were around 8. Therefore, I'm saying our growth ambitions, our growth aspirations are moderated keeping that in mind. Now, if tomorrow there are good pricing deals happening, we win it, the BLA business could, we will come back and tell you that we are investing in it. We see opportunity for growth, and we see opportunity to make money. The ATM solutions business could be even at a higher growth. I think fundamentally, I say India is the world's third or fourth largest ATM market. We have built a beautiful business proposition there. It is a phenomenal moat for us. For us to block and tackle to keep winning in that is very important. Where I think about 200,000 ATMs, 5,000 branches getting added every year is 275,000 ATMs in the next four to five years. In that, I do not know how much is outsourcing. Is it around 140? Is it around 175? Is it 200,000? I do not know. But we want to keep our share up and our pricing up. Pricing will be 3-player market. If it goes a 2-player market, it should improve significantly. I think for us, it is about, we would say earlier days, we are happy selling the shovels instead of getting into the business ourselves. But when we see opportunity where we think we can install your own business there, we will go do it. I think over time, off-site ATMs will start diminishing from private sector banks. Already happening. I have been saying it. Private sector banks should have more ATMs per branch. Why do they have one? They do not want people inside the branch. They should have two, three, four. And some large good quality banks are doing that today. Right? Our off-sites will be driven mostly by white label operators because they are operating, what RBI wants from them is different from the banks. I think it is a far more efficient model. But that need will not work in metros because the cost of rental will kill you. It will work in Sur, where actually there is more consumer need and demand and usage of cash. Most of you will have very little cash in hand. You will be using UPI, credit card, whatever. But you go to a smaller town, people are using cash reasonably. UPI trend, of course, clearly, but UPI has also started moderating right now. But again, I am saying it is a natural factor. This is the same question I had in 2016, 2017. Same question in 2021. Again, I say I do not know. People said cash will die. I said we will see. Our job is to keep building, running what we can and making decent money on it and keep expanding and diversifying as and when we get the right opportunity. Okay, I think we have time for one or two last questions, then I am told we have to wrap up. Darshan here. So question is on the future outlook that you have shared. When we go back to, let's say Q4 or Q1 presentation, the FY 2027 future outlook was service revenue CAGR of around 14%-17%. Yeah. Now here we are saying around 12 odd percent for next two years. Yeah. What has changed, let's say between Q1 call, earnings call and now that led you to trim this target? I think two, three things. One, Q1, Q2, consumption-wise, economy-wise, has been a dampener. That's number one. The second is we were expecting, like what Anush talked about, the whole ATM additions, whether it was from PSU contracts or whatever, I think that has not happened in the timeline we thought. We thought they'll go live by April, May, June, or we'll start getting the first set of those businesses. The third and bigger one for us was that in March, and we explained that on the Q1 call. March, I think we won the RFP. We didn't win. We were the only qualified bidder in that RFP. We didn't win, let me be clear. But we're the only qualified bidder, and we were led to believe that this is a matter of process, so we assumed that number is there. That's a significant number. Now that has got disrupted, derailed for whatever reasons. I think that's been a surprise and a bad shock for us on that. These are two reasons which haven't gone well. Okay, second on that outsource piece where you have mentioned in the presentation SBI around 7,000 ATMs, but 10,000 ATMs is already out for cash logistics, right? That's a different one. This is new ATMs to be installed. Okay. That 10,000 is their current installed base, which they want to outsource for cash management. Okay. Thanks. That is it. Going back to it, I think if we do well, I think FY 2027 should give you that 14%, 15% number to 16% sort of number. I have to recognize that six months are gone. That is gone off from a two-year base. We will still try and make up over a five-year period, but I cannot do anything in the next. Just in two years you cannot make up for it. Yeah. Two questions. One is geographical penetrations and adding product verticals like intelligent safes of Loomis and other players, what is your view and how soon we can hear from you? Sorry, intelligent safes as in retail cash vault? Yeah. Okay. Anush can take that. Sorry. As far as the geography is concerned, we continue expanding. Initially, our expansion at the earlier part of last decade was led by banks wanting to expand and set up more ATMs in under-penetrated parts of India. ATMs sort of were at the forefront of our network capacity and creating more reach. In the last two years, it has been more retail oriented. As we have sort of tried to expand, initially with organized retail and QSR, those are points which were already in the set of cities that we were servicing. But now that we have gone behind microfinance NBFCs, the reach and scale of some of them is. Because they are more regionally oriented. There are very few which are pan-India. Many of them have a very strong state or a set of states as their presence. In many cases is far more than a traditional bank itself. That is also sort of what is making us pivot and change our business model and saying, do we necessarily need to have a full route and incur a fixed cost in servicing this versus creating a service delivery network that is a lot more agile, a lot more responsive? The needs of the customer are different from what the needs of the bank used to be earlier. Bank needed a certain quality and a certain risk built into it. If you are able to offer all of that with our technology in a much more responsive manner, we would want to variabilize that cost than incur the fixed cost. To the second question on the safes, I think when you see it in the technology center, this is something that we are. When you look at retail, the biggest paradox in retail cash management is this, that most of the cash collection for retail happens in the second half of the day. That is when customers walk into. Whether you are organized retail, whether you are an NBFC whose agents have done their set of collections and have come back to the branch at the end of the day, in the evening or night. Most of your cash is accumulated in the evening. At which point it is too late to go and deposit this in a bank branch. That is the core need which necessitates them working with companies like us. Historically, they would just go and deposit this in a bank branch, but the models have changed. To customers who have a large cash accumulation or who have multiple agents or employees who are all bringing back money to a single hub. To give you an example, this could be a Swiggy or a Zomato, for instance, where you have different bike riders doing cash on deliveries. As and when they deposit the money into an account and free up their credit limit, they are assigned more orders. Or it could be NBFCs, for example. The intelligent safe for the retail cash vault solution we have works beautifully for them. We have this running in multiple hospitals today, for example, where people don't need to line up for cash deposition at the counters and instead can just put their invoice number and deposit the currency to get the bills cleared. I think multiple use cases. We've done this in airlines. We're doing it in hospitals. We have this in fuel pumps, for example, where different shifts and different employees are able to punch in their employee ID or swipe a card, and they are able to sort of get the cash reconciliation and settlement done. I think we have the solution up and running. Adoption takes time. It's an issue of price for us. I think we keep working on how do we bring the cost factor down to get more adoption on this. We'll take one final question. Yeah. I just We can hear you. Yeah. I just wanted to understand if I got that right, that in retail cash management, your realization per touchpoint is much lesser than the ATM. Is it because you had given this data point where in bank using an ATM to service a customer, there is a cost advantage vis-a-vis having a person over there. But really in retail, do you think that there is enough cost incentive for, let's say a DMart to deploy this Retail 360 solution vis-à-vis what they have been historically doing, and that is why the prices are low. Secondly, do you have RCM and ATM integrated across the same network so that you get route density benefits and then you can command pricing? Yeah, those were the questions. I think two different things. Let me clarify. When I talk about bank branch cost versus ATM, that factor of one is to 10 still applies. I think there are enough studies which different consultants have done for banks, which demonstrate that for a typical customer transaction at a branch, whatever may be the nature of transaction, costs the bank anywhere between INR 150 to INR 200. Versus at an ATM, it is 1/10 of that. That is one data point. When we talk about retail realizations being half of ATM, those are more for cash pickup, not for Retail 360. One way to sort of get context in this is when we showed you what an ATM dispenses between INR 1.2 crores to INR 1.3 crores per month, whereas we also saw what a retail cash pickup is usually between INR 25 lakhs to INR 40 lakhs a month. In a way, that sort of accounts for a significant delta. What we are really trying to aim for here, in terms of pricing for retail, I think that two different ways of looking at it. The first is when you get a customer hooked onto it just creates a sort of convenience, real-time settlement, reconciliation, all of which becomes a lot more difficult to swap out of. The other data point which we get compared to when a merchant or a retail organization looks at our pricing is really what is the cost of a similar digital transaction for them. UPI is of course a bit of an anomaly because of subsidies, but today most businesses are paying a platform fee or a transaction fee for using UPI. Perhaps not as MDR, but in some other form and manner. A debit card transaction costs them anywhere from 50 basis points to 100 basis points. A credit card costs them 100 to 200 basis points. The cost of a retail cash is, in a way, about 20 to 25 basis points. That's one way to look at it. Varies a lot depending on nature of customer, quantum, the ticket size and so on. But that's one way to look at analog. Got it. On the route bit, it's not the similar route that you have for RCM vis-à-vis ATM? The way we look at it is based on the realization of a point and the cash pickup that happens, we leverage a similar route doing both. If the route doesn't justify a four-wheeler, then that's where we are over-investing into the gig model. It's all linked to profitability, and that's what Rajiv was alluding to. That's the whole machine learning algorithms that are coming into picture on a real-time basis based on historical data, predict and send the right type of vehicle at the right cost point to justify the revenue that we are getting. I think till now, historically, we merged it. Mostly it's been merged. I do think it will separate over the coming year. That's what we're working to because we think the needs are very different. We don't Also, think of it this way. We are half the number of points four years ago in retail. Now, that's building scale. With that scale, you operate differently. Vision AI, same thing. We have 5,000 sites. There are about 25,000 sites. There will be 40,000 sites. You operate differently. You dedicate a very different way of thinking. Each sector has its own dynamics at play, and therefore you want to customize your operating model to that. Got it. Just one thing, I saw the tech stack of Vision AI. Are you also thinking like if it's that good, you can just white label and sell it? Is it something that you're considering? In India, I don't think we would do it, but we could do this outside, yes. Okay. I mean, that's why we're trying to build the whole stack over time. But it takes a lot of effort, time, resources. Would I spend $2 million this year to invest in international markets? Not at all. We've done enough investment to a market we understand. I think once we get some good tailwind, we make Sunil has spent a lot of time exploring international markets from Securens. He has an understanding which is way ahead of us. We're going to sit down and collaborate and figure out what can we do, what's the low-hanging fruit? Get some revenue to start paying for the investments there. That's our approach. We don't want to go and make one big bank. Or if there's an acquisition to go and launch into a market, possibly. But don't take any of these words for seriousness. This is just imaginary stuff right now. No, definitely helpful. Thanks. Okay. Thank you. I think we will wrap it up there. Let me thank the management. Let me first thank all of you for those of you who are shareholders, thank you so much for your belief and faith. For those of you who are listening to us or understand here, thank you for being a wonderful audience. We loved having you here, and see you soon. Thank you. Thank you, management, for a great presentation, and thank you everybody for joining us today. The experience center will be open. Please join us for some high tea outside as well.

Data Source: Quartr Last updated: Sep 30, 2025

Earnings call transcripts are provided by Quartr and are published within hours after each earnings call.

Update frequency:

Quarterly

Data Sources Report a data error

• Slides