Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q3 FY 2023 earnings conference call of CSB Bank hosted by Axis Capital Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Manish Shukla from Axis Capital Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Ritika. Welcome everyone to this call. We are pleased to host CSB Bank to discuss its Q3 FY 2023 results. From the management team, we have Mr. Pralay Mondal, CEO; Mr. B.K. Diwakara, CFO; their management colleagues. We have some opening remarks from Mr. Mondal, after that, we will open the floor for Q&A. Mr. Mondal, over to you, sir.
Manish, thank you everybody for joining the analyst call today on our Q3 results for FY 2023. I will give a slight preview of what's happening globally and then quickly move into the CSB Bank results. As we all know that the global economic order stands tested following the chaos resulting from monetary tightening in most of the parts of the world. Lower food and energy supplies, elevated prices, debt distress, and so on and so forth. International organizations, including IMF and World Bank, OECD, have downgraded their global growth projections. Relatively, of course, India is in a slightly better place. Though inflation trends are still showing some moderation, some ugly signs, I think moderation has been lately in play.
We'll know on, first of this, on February the Fed, what the decision they take, and we also have the budgetary announcements in India and also the RBI decision. Most likely, the whole world is expecting somewhere between 25 to 50, and there's a high probability of a 25, which means in India, I think the rate cycle is coming to a reasonable stable situation. At best there could be one more and then pause or pause and then give a slightly different outlook. Whichever way it goes, I think things are now stabilizing quite a bit. On the domestic side, of course, there is a reasonable pickup in manufacturing.
Rural demand, which was a little bit of a concern, has started improving when we saw the results of some of the FMCG companies last quarter. The banking has never been in a better place than where we are today. We have seen most of the banks coming out of their NPA challenges. I think in the next one or two years, the CapEx cycle will also start picking up. We saw a double-digit growth after a while in the banking ecosystem. Even I think the January numbers as right now, last fortnight, I think was 6.5% in terms of credit growth. Which means things are looking a lot better in this part of the world.
Having said that, we are of course connected to the global order. The liquidity is a little bit of a challenge, of course. It is quite volatile. Funding cost is going up for the banking ecosystem. Overnight is hovering between 6% to 6.5%. There are challenges as well when it comes to the funding. We see most of the banks are trying to manage their LCR and the CD ratios this quarter. Hopefully things will stabilize with more government spending coming in and liquidity easing a little bit. The GDP estimates likely to grow by 7%, though last month's estimate was 6.8%. Overall, I think the CPI.
Coming to the CSB specifics, I think, Q3 FY 2023 has been a good operating quarter on most parameters, operating parameters, I'll say. Net profit of INR 3 91 crore, up by 19% YoY. For the quarter ended, the net profit is at INR 155.95 crore, which is up by 29% versus Q2 FY 2023, and that's quite a significant achievement in my view Q-on-Q. Non-interest income ex treasury posted 65% increase in Q3 versus Q3 FY 2022. When you look at the non-interest income excluding treasury and PSLs income, it is 58%. For the nine-month YoY, it is 40% growth. This is what I've been highlighting, and we will deliver it this when we get into the Q&A session.
I was telling that we are trying to get our core non-interest income closer to in double digits. We are very low single digit before. Now we have moved into the double digit. I think this quarter we are around 13%. Our aim will be to be in the 14%-15% range in the medium term as our overall franchise grows. Provisioning buffer of about INR 200 crore over and above the regulatory requirements. This include the contingency provisioning, which is to call COVID before COVID provisioning of INR 106 crore and another INR 90 odd crore based on provisioning which are doing over and above the regulatory provisioning. NIM has been stable, if at all it has grown slightly.
Though I don't read too much into the NIM because then as quarters go by, NIM will normalize over a period of time. As I've always said that we'll try to hold it somewhere around 5%. This quarter is 5.8%. Overall it's around 5.52%. We'll deliberate that subsequently while we get into the discussion mode. ROE improved from 1.83% to 2% on a yearly basis and on quarter-on-quarter from 1.87% to 2.37%. This shows that how our core operating performance of the bank is improving. I think the good news on the liability front has been that we had a 19% YoY growth and against the industry growth of around 9%-10%.
That is that gives us a little bit of a comfort, of course on a low base, which we understand, and hence we have to continue to work on it. CASA growth has not been that encouraging. It's around 8% growth and hence CASA ratio has come down. Cost of deposits reduced from 4.34% to 4.19%. Again, we'll deliberate this because this is only a transient phase. Quarter-on-quarter cost of deposits has gone up. As you can see in the industry presentation. On the asset growth, net advances grew by 26% or 24% whichever you to take it, depending on you are taking that with write-off and without the write-off portfolio.
24%-26% is our asset growth. Industry has grown by 15%-16%. Gold portfolio ratio growth of 51% and 9% QoQ. I want to mention one thing here because a lot of people think that gold portfolio is growing because of price increase, but at least in our case, it has not been the case. We have been very consciously not increase the available price just to ensure that we get our LTV under much better risk governance. Hence, our tonnage growth has been 49%, while our gold loan portfolio has grown by 51%, which probably is very unique in the industry.
Other, this has also helped us in bringing down the LTV overall I think towards around 75 odd %. Yield on advances, we are around 11.02 with an improvement of 21 basis points. This is where we need to focus on and we need to take it up because cost of deposits will continue to go up. If you have to retain our NIM, we have to take the yield up slightly. On the asset quality metrics, it's a very, very good performance, I must say. Even when you look at industry standards, we are probably one of the best there right now. GNPA 1.45, NNPA 0.42, PCR with the write-off is 92.
Even if you take, without that it is 71%, which was around, I think 68% last quarter. I think the key point here is, our PCR has improved while our GNPA and NNPA has come down significantly. Contingent provisions, as I said before, accounting the books is higher than the NNPA, which is very, very unique. We have continued our accelerated NPA provisioning higher than the RBI requirements and continued to hold the contingency provision of the INR 106 crore which I talked about. We have fully provided for the asset portfolio. This, based on, a regulatory, guidance which came, I think in December it came. We have now our entire asset portfolio has been provided for.
Whatever recovery we get from our asset portfolio now will be straight into the P&L, and it is now fully provided for, and we took a hit of around INR 12 crore in our P&L this quarter. We have a robust capital base. It has just grown further to 25.78%. We have to scale our business, continue to grow the business. This has happened at a time when we have grown the asset book by 24% or 26%, whichever way you look at it. Even then our CRAR has improved. Our risk weights have gone down further. A little bit of operation risk has gone up, but credit risk has gone down significantly.
Overall, our risk weights are one of the lowest in the markets, in the industry. Shareholder value creation, our book value has grown by in line with our profitability growth, somewhere around 29% I think it has grown. It has reached 167%. EPS annualized is 22.54. ROE again is 19.86. Which are very good. With a CRAR of 25.78, ROE is of 19.86 is a good ratio to be proud of. Investments of the future, we are continuing to add 100 branches. We'll continue to do that next year.
Our head of retail is trying to see that if we can try and put those branches a little early in the year so that we get some benefits out of these branches. This year we will open 100 branches. On technology side is the biggest investment we are making, leadership and technology side. We have a tremendous amount of IM personally involved along with our CIO on the technology strategy for the bank for the next three to five years. We are going to make significant investment into technology, whether it is core system, LOS, LMS, CRM, RAM, I mean, everything. We are completely changed the entire wraparound system of the technology because that's where the real growth of the bank is going to happen.
In conclusion, what I want to say is we are absolutely on track, which is what we had communicated to you in our last few calls on our SBS Sustain, Build, and Scale 2030 strategy. We are currently in the build phase. Sustenance, we have demonstrated we are doing well. The liability franchise we have started picked up because that's what will build the future of the bank. We have tied up with market leaders like CRISIL, OneCard, Yubi Loans, et cetera. Yubi for SME, OneCard for the credit cards, CRISIL for various initiatives. Also we are doing a lot of centralization of processes to ensure that we have better controls and management processes better. As you have seen that our CPI has come down this quarter.
Quickly, I want to add that in my commentary, I've always said that we like to keep the CPI somewhere around 60% while we are investing into the future. This quarter is an aberration, but I would like to keep it somewhere around 58% - 60%, so that we have enough room to invest into the business. By the end of 2030, we'll bring it down to between 40% - 45%. New verticals has already been launched. Personal loans, education loans, home loans, CV, auto loans, then, CE, HCF, Commercial Equipments, Healthcare. Policies, processes, systems, everything is in place. Credit cards has started off, as I said before.
Retail growth, it's too early to say retail growth, but let me put it this way, retails engine has got restarted. Okay? We have got the leadership in place. Gradually, we're building the businesses. On the transaction banking side, we have created a separate vertical. We will look at CMS, we are looking at supply chain. We are going to build some of the systems around that because ultimately, these are system-driven businesses. Wholesale Banking is working on the entire coverage strategy, reworking on the, I'll say, entire coverage strategy. Because there's so many things happening in the bank right now, so many projects are running, it's just unbelievable. We have just rolled out a project management tool called Rapid. We have internally branded it Rapid.
On project management tool, I have said that no project will be there in the bank, which is not on the project management tool. Everybody through the dashboard can see where it is, how it is progressing, and things like that. Otherwise, it lose track. Overall, the progressive transformation journey undertaken in the bank is geared towards achieving the vision set for the bank in the medium to long term. While the improved results for this quarter-on-quarter is giving us the confidence that we are progressing in the right direction, it also reminds us of the responsibility of what we need to deliver in the coming quarters based on the commitments which we make to the markets. I'm very, very conscious, me and my team is very, very conscious of that.
In short, what I can say before I hand it over is, we have almost in this quarter demonstrated everything which we said that we'll focus on. Growth, we were growing by 9% last year. We are growing by 24%, 25%, 26%, whichever is the right number we want to see. Liability franchise has started delivering. Our NIM has sustained. Our cost -to -income has sustained. Our credit growth has kind of continued to be negative. At the same time, I would say that it won't be negative forever, so we will provision for that. We had some issues this quarter because we are on a very high base.
Last year, same quarter, Q3, we had a significant recovery from the provisioning of gold loans which we did in first quarter last year. Even in spite of that fact, we have grown by 5% Q on Q this quarter versus the same quarter last year, in spite of the fact that there is a very, very high recovery last year same time. This has happened primarily because of various parameters, ratios, which I talked about, but also non-interest. Let me give you 1 data. Our non-interest income, nine-month basis, ex-treasury and ex-PSLC. PSLC is the PSLC commission because we had excess on PSL. We have grown by 40% on a nine-month basis and 58% on a year-on-year quarter basis.
What it means is that our core non-interest fee, which is most sustainable and doesn't depend on cycles. PSLC is a cycle business because it depends on what is the premium that is available in the market. The treasury income is a cycle basis. Treasury we had a variance of INR 18 crore. In PSLC, we had a variance of INR 30 crore. Last year we had a INR 33.4 crore or something. This year we have got just INR 30.6 crore. Between these two, INR 58 crore, INR 30 crore and INR 18 crore, INR 58 crore. Then this, suddenly there's a set provision we had to do, another INR 12 crore. All of this together, INR 60 crore is something which appeared out of nowhere this year, right? Which was not our doing.
It is markets. We had to do our own stuff to ensure we get a better recovery, we get a better fee income. That's one more thing, we have done a very, very good job on the recovery side. That's what helped us in either upgrading accounts or getting recovery from written off accounts. Overall, I think, while the headline numbers looks reasonably, kind of a moderate. When you deep dive into these numbers, which all of you on the call know much better than me, I'm a business guy. All of you are experts of that.
When you deep dive, you will see a reasonably consistent operating performance, and every operating parameters are improving by the quarter, which gives me a lot of confidence that you should be able to take the Bank forward in line with what we have committed. I think I've spoken enough. With that, I stop here and hand it over to Mr. Divakara if you have to say something, and then we'll open it for Q&A.
You have covered it elaborately, Pralay, so I don't think anything needs to be said from my side. In question and answer session, if something needs to be supplemented, I will do that. Otherwise, elaborately you have covered all the areas of our performance.
Thank you. We can take the questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Shubhranshu Mishra from PhillipCapital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. good evening. Thank you for this opportunity. just wanted to understand a bit on the gold loans. one is, what proportion of our disbursements is coming from balance transfers from NBFCs and what is getting originated by our own branches organically? second is, so, we've been seeing tonnage growth as well as account growth. What proportion of these incremental as well as on the book are above INR 3 lakh, and what is INR 1 lakh-INR 3 lakh, and what will be less than INR 1 lakh, sir? Those are my two questions. Thanks.
Thanks, Shubhranshu, for your questions. On your first question, it's around 40% comes from balance transfer. Rest is new to bank because we have got a good distribution and the sales strategy on that. We have a brand also on the gold loan side of the business. On your second question was on tonnage growth. What is the question on tonnage?
Tonnage, sir, or tonnage or maybe AUM, we can split it that way. What % of the AUM is below INR 1 lakh? What is between INR 1 lakh-INR 3 lakh?
Okay.
What is more than INR 3 lakh on the AUM as well as on the disbursement, if we can speak on that?
I think I don't have that exact data in such a breakup, but I can give you some heads up on this. Our portfolio average ticket size is between INR 1 lakh- INR 2 lakh. Our and we're coming to disbursement or incremental, our tonnage grew by 49%, while our customer addition grew by some 37% or 36% or something like that. Which means that incrementally, our tonnage per customer is only going up. There's a third question also you had.
It was around this only, sir. The split between
Okay.
Basically-
Okay.
One can infer that the tonnage as well as the account growth, almost 40% is coming from balance transfer from NBFC.
That's right.
Both.
Other banks, whichever way. Balance transfer is around 40%, and tonnage growth is faster than the customer acquisition, and our average ticket size is between INR 1 lakh - INR 2 lakhs.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much. Best of luck.
Thank you, Shubhranshu. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sonal Minhas from Prescient Investment Management. Please go ahead.
Hi there. This is Sonal Minhas. Am I audible?
Yeah, Sonal. You're very much audible. Thank you.
Sure. Thanks for taking my question, sir. I had a first question on the CASA growth, which is a bit muted. Just wanted to understand from a bottoms up level as to what is the limitation for the bank to grow its CASA because the branch network is growing on one. Is it technology? Is it a product? If you could just explain that's my first question.
Yeah. No, that's a very valid and relevant question. You also know that building a CASA franchise is not a overnight job.
Right.
-build up a proper franchise. meanwhile, we cannot wait for that franchise to grow to grow our bank. You can understand that in one year itself, we have grown the bank from 9% to 24%, 26% on the assets side, and the liability growth grew to 19%. CASA cannot grow like that overnight. CASA needs, as you rightly said, product, process, distribution, the right kind of a customer segmentation, acquisition, sales, and more importantly, surround products, which is you need your retail assets, because just opening a CASA account will not give us the value. He has to run his EMI through that account. He has to have his payments to the account and all of that stuff.
On a CASA side also you need to have the transaction banking. You need to have those loans only based on the value you create for those customers. These are very complex initiatives. The good news is that we have started most of these initiatives now in the bank. For example, we have started our sales structure. That's why we could grow our number of accounts by almost 75%-76% last year. Our quality of these accounts are much better than what we're doing, and hence, the value of these new customers are also better. Also, we have launched our retail assets products, credit card products, and hence the payments that will go through, the EMIs that will go through, will help us.
On the transaction banking side, we have created a separate vertical on that. We are also building the technology through which this throughput will come. CASA, as you know, whether it's current or savings, is a throughput business, right?
Mm-hmm.
One can always buy CASA, we are not saying that that is something which we will do or not do, but almost every bank does it. And it has its own benefits in terms of LCR and many other things. I'm not saying that's a bad strategy, but it's just that we have not reached there yet. To that extent, because we are in a hurry to grow in a difficult liability environment, because even established banks like HDFC, Axis, ICICI, Kotak, IndusInd, everybody is struggling on the liability growth. That's why the systemic growth is 9%, you'll appreciate that in spite of the fact we have grown by 19%. Yes, CASA is a slightly high road, and we have to build, do the building blocks to reach there.
Our retail head here, all of us have built CASA businesses in various, at least three large banks before. We know how to do it, and we will go step by step. There is no shortcut to that success.
Sir, really appreciate the long answer, but is it more, the senior team leadership or the technology basically which, you probably can't take the.
Senior team leadership. Senior team leadership understand what needs to be done. Technology also, we are putting it there, but technology, as you know, that it takes some time to build. Also the products around it, right? Even if I. See, I have myself or my retailer, we have handled the largest products in the market, but that does not mean that I can do it today, right? You have to build those products, you have to launch those products, you have to declare a franchise, you have to run the EMI through the savings account, et cetera. Parallel, you have to get those customers also. When all of this together, we understand the complexity of the task. Having said that, I'm not saying that we...
You will see, for example, last quarter, we grew CASA by 16%, our FD grew by 7%, but still CASA ratio came down. That's the nature of the beast, that when you grow faster, your even if your CASA growth is faster than FD growth, your CASA ratio will continue to come down. Okay? That's math.
Mm-hmm.
Having said that, this quarter, I have no such excuse because even CASA itself has come down. I would suppose that it has happened to most of the banks in the system because suddenly the gap between the CASA and the CA and the tenure G-Sec is so high that money is moving. This happens in cycles, so we are no exception. Yes, I'm not shying away from. I'm being very honest about it. We have to do a lot of work to build a CASA franchise. No bank has done it in short time. No bank has done it.
No, no, I agree. Is there a timeline, like for example, you have timelines for everything, and that's very, very good to know on each of the calls. Is there a timeline where we can say that the CASA product, the technology and the system is basically fixed maybe one year from now or 18 months or two years from now?
Yeah.
we are on a growth path from there on? Because that's a sustainability-
Yeah.
bit for the bank.
Yeah. I'll give you a answer for this, clear answer. You will start seeing CASA growth for us within the next 12 months. Okay?
Right.
Having said that, the real CASA franchise, it will take two to three years to build. What is a real CASA franchise? When you look at HDFC, Axis et cetera, a real CASA franchise is when you have at least two or three relevant products with a customer and his EMI runs through that, through that product. When you have a customer segmentation starting from a high net worth to the pyramid structure. When you have a transaction banking where you do collections, you do CMS, you do everything part of supply chain. For this, I need technology which we are building. We are changing.
Mm-hmm.
-our core system, by the way. Okay?
Yeah.
You know, core system takes anywhere between 15-18 months to fully get operational if you are lucky. Okay? The surround system in parallel we are building. We have on our project management tool, we have put all these timelines, as you rightly said. Having said that, none of you will have the patience for me to play out this timeline. This will happen three years down the line, two years down the line. Meanwhile, I have to also ensure that next one year we get our CASA growth and we know how to get it. We are going to execute that and you will see the CASA growth within the next one year.
Thanks a lot, sir, for this answer. I have a second question, if I may, ask, if I'm allowed to.
Yes, please. Yeah.
Yes, sir. Sir, similar question on SME. I wanted to see the SME book and it's been kind of flattish. Not making any critical remark or whatever, but just wanted to see and understand is the market actually somewhere not of high quality because of which basically you have tapered down the growth of that segment. You're not happy with the quality of approvals which are coming in SME. Just want to understand from a market perspective and then drill it down to your company.
Yeah.
Yes.
I'll give a very honest answer here.
Mm-hmm.
We have a old book in SME. Okay?
Okay.
That is also running off. While we are disbursing a reasonable amount per quarter, but we are also running off some part of the old book. Okay?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Some part of the old book is running off is not making me very unhappy also. Okay?
Mm-hmm.
We may not, when we, when I want to, look at those books on a risk-adjusted basis, I may not like to have that book with me at that point of time, so I'm okay with running it off.
Mm-hmm.
In the process, I am strengthening the quality of the SME book. I am adding, more business, on a fresh disbursement and fresh customer addition. Still my growth is not coming. That is one part of the answer.
Mm-hmm.
Second part of the answer is that, we have, this, you know, when we have limited liability and I have, businesses which are coming at yields, which is giving me almost zero risk, okay?
Sure.
I have to give other ratios and other returns in the short term. I know this is not a very long-term good strategic view, but in the short term.
Mm-hmm.
I also have to deliver. Where would I deploy that when I have limited liability? Given that, because I have to also, raise money for investments into technology and distribution and other CASA, which you talked about, for that.
Sure.
I have to very tactically deploy that. As long as I'm able to deploy at a much more RoA, please appreciate my RoA is 2.37% this quarter. Okay?
Mm-hmm.
That RoA is required for my investment into the this thing.
Sure.
There, when they're getting business at a particular yield, I'm refusing those businesses. In spite of the fact that HDFC, Axis, ICICI, they are happily doing those businesses. Not a bad business to be. On the risk-adjusted basis and on the NIM I have to get, I am saying that I will rather deploy the liability somewhere else than taking those businesses. That's why to some extent our SME and wholesale hands are a little tied at this point of time. I also understand the value of franchise, so we are building those franchise as well as in parallel. Okay? I also believe that in the market, the gradually the risk-adjusted returns are gradually starting to show now.
Mm-hmm.
Till now, the risk-adjusted returns on SME was not, I mean, at least it didn't suit our appetite, okay?
Mm-hmm.
To that extent, we are little careful in the SME part of the business, given the risk-adjusted returns we are getting.
Understand that.
Having said that, now we are also the other banks, what they do is they will do those lower risk-adjusted return, and then they will do lot of income through cross-sell of other products and other relationships. We don't have, not only top-up but other fees and liability and other businesses, PMS, supply chain, so many other things that they have end up financing all that on the wholesale side.
Mm-hmm.
Since we are launching those products gradually, since we don't have those on a run-up basis, we don't have those income as yet. We, for us, taking those decisions, purely based on NIM or spreads is not as easy as it is for some of those other banks. We are competing in a difficult market. That's why we are saying that we will be prudent in the way we build these businesses. In the long term, let me tell you, our long term is very clear. 30% retail, 20% gold and rest half and half between SME and wholesale. Maybe SME is around 20%-21%, then wholesale is around 30%. That is not going anywhere. Okay?
Got it, sir. Thank you a lot for your answers. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pruthul Shah from Anubhuti Advisors.
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity and congrats on good set of numbers. My question is with respect to the growth in advances. YoY we have seen that advances have grown by 26%. However, gold loan book has grown by 51%. Basically other than gold, the book has only grown by 10%. Just wanted to know that why this is not increasing in tandem to the overall loan book. You already spoke about SME, but if you can give a highlight on the corporate loan and retail loan that what's the outlook on that?
Sure. No, absolutely. Great question. Let me start with retail. In a way I covered it in my first question I think, that we are building the retail franchise on the back of technology products and processes. Retail assets build-out takes at least 12 - 18 months. Good news is that we have started our journey and we are starting to build. This includes retail, Agri, it includes microfinance, it includes the entire retail assets business, CE, home loans, HCF, healthcare, all of it together, credit cards. Good news is that now we have started each of these. To see visibility of these on the balance sheet, you will need to give us at least a year. Okay? That's on the retail side.
Retail, we are firmly on play to gradually build these products and it will gradually show up. SME, I already answered, so I don't want to duplicate the answer. On the wholesale side of the business, what we have done is, we have two parts of the portfolio. One is the DA portfolio, and one is the normal wholesale business, which is primarily mid-market, emerging corporates and we have our little bit of NBFC portfolio also. From that perspective, I think there again, we have to build our products. We are increasing our coverage strategy. Wholesale is around 30% of our overall portfolio, including DA.
There is a, in fact today only with our head of wholesale I was just discussing before that how do we need to increase our coverage, et cetera. Please understand that we, our quality of the portfolio incrementally, we don't do, almost do never below BB, BB B. Most of our NBFCs are A, A and above. Given that perspective, I think we are very conscious of the risk-adjusted return. That's why we are very carefully building it up. Wholesale franchise does not take that kind of a time what a retail franchise will take or a SME franchise will take. I mean, retail will take longer, SME will take, medium and wholesale will take shortest. There, we want to really press the pedal there and grow.
But, yes, still we need to create those transaction banking and also with the size of the balance sheet which we have, our wholesale team will not get an entry into many of the places where they want to. That's why they're choosing the right segments where we also and also, you know, we are very conscious of pricing we do. That's where we will remain at this kind of a level for the time being. And we will, but you will start seeing some in terms of business mix, it will not change too much from here. I mean, gold loan will be probably below 50%. SME will be around 12%-15% in the next six months. Wholesale will be remaining, including DA, somewhere around 30%.
Okay. Okay, got it. Just can you guide a number to it that other than gold loan, this SME, retail and corporate loans, what is the growth in loan book that we are expecting going forward in this book?
I understand your question. From here on, if I take growth on SME and wholesale, only assuming that's the base where we are sitting on the base on that how much it'll grow on retail and wholesale. Sorry, retail, SME and wholesale and retail includes Agri and microfinance. We should be able to grow somewhere around 15%.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Thank you.
Beyond that, I don't want to. I'm telling you practical, I don't want to do it. You know why? Because I have to continue to deliver the NIM till our technology is in play because I have to make a lot of investment there. My constraint is liability. If I have 20% growth in liability, and if I have 25% growth, I mean, hypothetically, I'm not giving a forward-looking number. Suppose I have a 20% growth in liability with a CD ratio of 81%, and if I have asset growth of 25%, I would still like us, like SME and wholesale to be around 15% and rest coming from gold purely because it's a tactical play for the next one and a half years.
Got it. Got it, sir. Got it. Thank you so much.
Again, long term, I told you that will remain, 20, 30, 20 gold, 30 retail, 20/21, SME and rest wholesale.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Prerit Choudhary from Green Portfolio. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good evening, sir. I have a couple of questions. First one is that our employee costs have been growing at a faster rate, and for last three, four quarters, our business per employee has been falling. When can we expect this to bottom out for our business? How would you look at that?
Have you all your questions or I'll answer this? Okay, let me answer this question first.
Yeah.
There are two ways of looking at it. business per employ- I mean, you take cost line only. If you look at our overall cost -to -income, that is within control, right? I mean, as at 55%-60%, we have remained there. When I have given that kind of, com-- I mean, that kind of, outlook, I have considered that our employee cost will continue to go up. Business per employee is something where you have to understand that we are adding lot more frontline staff in terms of acquisition, sales. Somebody asked a question on how will you build retail assets, how will you build retail liability, how will you add more accounts, how will you build CASA.
That can only happen when you expand a huge sales force out there, but they come at a very reasonable cost, right? They are not very costly resources. Business per employee will always be a little bit of a challenge when because we don't outsource too much of our employee outside. A lot of other banks, including my, all my previous organizations, specialty assets and cards and all these other businesses, everything is outsourced. The frontline sales staff, DSA, all of that. We are not doing too much of all that. Given that perspective, my business per employee, I am not giving a outlook where it will improve significantly from here because, number of employees will go up, their cost will go down, because the front-end sales staff is going up big time. That is on that front.
My cost to income will remain between 55%-60%, close up to 60%. That's not because of employee costs. That will be because of technology cost. Okay. I'm telling you, next year we'll see huge investments is going to go into technology in terms of both CapEx and OpEx. Okay? That's the first question.
Yeah. Next question is, so the company recently issued a new credit card with OneCard. If you can just number how many cards were issued in the recent quarter?
We have just started.
Okay.
it's not a number which is too much of importance at this point of time. Also what happens is you must understand as a franchise, we, you know, have limited credit qualified customers whom we will offer all these products. We have to add new customers in the coming quarters. This product is also in a way not to build a great credit card business but to get new, good quality credit qualified customers to the bank who can also build CASA, which I have already told before in my previous calls. Given the perspective we have, I think we have just added around 2,000, 2,500 cards now. Maybe next quarter we'll add another 10,000 or so.
But more importantly, I want to see this as one of the other products because we don't have too many products at this point of time. This is one more product, and this is a very premium product. If you see this product and you see the values that, and digitally enabled product. We think that this is one more way to knock the door of the customer to open a relationship with us. Our strategy is not cross-sell of credit cards to CASA. Our strategy is cross -sell of CASA to credit card customers. Because we need to build up a better quality CASA franchise, which will take little time. Credit card is a very important business for us from that perspective.
Okay, yeah. Understood. I had one last question. It's more related to the retail view that's related to the Adani. Do we have any exposures to the Adani Group in our corporate loan book?
I was jokingly saying before this call started that this question has went to the other banks, it will not come to us. We don't even have the balance sheet to give loans to Adani. I mean.
Okay.
We can have a, INR 50 crore CD or something here, there, et cetera.
Yeah.
That is nothing. Otherwise we don't have any exposure.
Okay, thank you. That's it for me.
The next question is from the line of Mona Khetan from Dolat Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, good evening.
Again, there is a sound. Mona, just hold on. Now it is okay. There is a sound that was coming in the. Yeah, Mona, go ahead.
Yeah. Firstly, on the SME side, if you could share the disbursements made by the bank over the last three quarters, the quantum of disbursement, that will help.
Hi. I'll just tell you, I think, last quarter or last, this year please say for everything.
Last quarter. Q1, Q2, Q3, it will be useful.
I think we have disbursing, incremental disbursement. Pure play disbursement is somewhere around INR 350-450 crore. I don't exactly remember the numbers. Somewhere in that level. Last my review I saw that. We have lost more than that in terms of either we have run them off or utilization has gone down on certain places because of rates and things like that. Broadly around INR 350-450 crore of disbursement we have done.
Okay. We've seen some BTs as well.
BT yeah. I mean, SME, you know, a lot of BT happens in SME now.
Okay.
BT will be a part of this. Yeah.
Okay. Okay. When it comes to your advances made, what would be the share of EBLR and MCLR loans in the pool?
Our mostly wholesale is on MCLR, okay? Most of our SME is EBLR. This is becoming lesser relevant anymore because interest rates are peaking right now, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
The benefits of these are gradually going to fade away and impact of cost of funds will start kicking in. That's why I said in the beginning itself that 5.8%, don't read this too seriously on the NIM.
Right. wholesale and if SME together would be, say, about, 30%, if I have to exclude the direct installment and stuff?
Gold is around 40%, wholesale is around 30%, SME is around 12%. 40%+ .
Okay. Okay.
is between wholesale and retail. Wholesale and SME, 42%.
Okay. Gold would be entirely fixed. Okay.
Gold is mostly fixed only. Mostly fixed. Because these are short-term. Gold loan is short-term. It doesn't matter.
Got it. Got it. On the deposit side, we have seen a very solid sequential growth at 8%. If you could just give some color of where the sequential growth is coming from. Is it largely led by wholesale deposits, certificate of deposits, et cetera, or a larger share is by retail deposits?
On CD, I must say that we are lesser than where we started the year with. Okay?
Mm-hmm.
The CD book is I don't know whether we give the data or not, but it is somewhere between INR 300 crore-400 crore. When we started the year, it was higher than that. I don't think CD actually has come down, not gone up. I'm not saying it will not go up again, but it is just, it is not that material. Among most of the banks, our CD, our component of CD in our deposits as a % also is one of the lowest. That's, that's not there. On the wholesale question which you said, depends on what is. I just want to clarify because it's a recorded call.
No.
There is one RBI definition.
Interbank deposits. Yeah.
No, no. No, no. Interbank is not there. Okay?
Okay. Okay.
On wholesale, See, there are two definitions of wholesale deposits.
About the.
One is what a wholesale group gets, okay, which are mostly short-term and things like that. The other one is what RBI classification says are wholesale, which is also retail, but they're treated as wholesale. Our bank, like most banks, we also have on an incremental basis last quarter more than 50%, almost 60% of our business by RBI definition is wholesale. Okay? You can easily say, look at another ratio and see what the question you are asking is what is our LCR. We entered the LCR as 124%. How many banks have really done at that kind of a percentage? That cannot be a purely wholesale kind of a thing. Lot of these are retail actually. Deposit franchise has to be seen in two, three parts.
What is the overall cost of funds of the bank? What is the tenor of the deposit? What is the LCR of the bank, and what is the CD of the bank? Okay. CD we are one of the lowest, and I told you it is between INR 300 crore-INR 400 crore. Now it has come down actually because it has run off, some of that has run off as we are talking. Our LCR is 124. Our cost of deposits, whatever, 4.8 or something like that. That will give you the answer where we are.
Right. Right. Sure. When it comes to your loan-to-deposit ratio, what would be a comfortable level to you? Where could it peak, rather?
See, I would, in the current scenario, I will say that, I'm willing to go up to 90%. I was quite pleasantly surprised to see we coming down this quarter at 81%, from our 84% odd last quarter. 84 or 85, I don't remember. I think 85. It has come down actually this quarter. That may not be the trend. I mean, I think in the current regime with liquidity where it is, 85% is a powerful force right now.
Okay. Sure. Just lastly, we have seen very low slippages, good recoveries in your case. Especially this fiscal, close to 1% kind of slippages is what we are seeing. What is your guidance on slippages from a normalized perspective as we go ahead in FY 2024, 2025? Where could the normalized slippages be for CSB Bank?
We are a very conservative bank. Our management is also very conservative. That's why you are seeing some of the growth which you are not taking because on SME and wholesale because of risk-adjusted returns are not in line with what our conservative thought process is. Okay? Gold loan anyway, the NPA and the slippages are very, very low. Okay? Slippages can happen, but you recover that. Gold loan is not a real issue.
Right.
Some of our old portfolio on the retail which was slipping, that is now started, and that is now gradually going to become negligible over a period of time. We are also getting upgrades and recovery from some of the old SME portfolio and the retail portfolio as well. Not so much retail, but more from home loans lab and SME portfolio. Given this perspective, I cannot give a guidance on this, but I'm very happy, I'm sure you are, that we have a negative credit cost today. Very few people have negative credit cost. We have traveled the whole year with that kind of a negative credit cost, I hope that we can continue that for this quarter as well. I don't know. Hopefully we will.
Next year obviously will not be a negative credit cost. In terms of slippages, I think we will continue to be good. Okay? I don't see... Because neither we have a chunky kind of, except for one or two accounts, we don't have too much of a chunky business, nor we have too much of a stress in our portfolio. Anyway, we are holding a contingency provision. We don't know how to take care of that, so we are constantly working with our auditors. We have a contingency provision of INR 106 crore in any way. To that extent, you cannot adjust that, but you can have a formula for that over a period of next three, four years.
To that extent, I don't see a major challenge in terms of slippages or NPA or credit quality. We may not have a negative credit cost. That is unreal.
Sir, thank you and all the best.
Thank you, ma'am.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pallavi Deshpande from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Thank you for taking my question. We just wanted to understand again a bit more on the deposit growth. What would be the outlook going ahead? Again, like you mentioned, you have to balance between savings and term, so we can expect more term deposit growth? Would that be the strategy for the next one?
Yeah. See, at the end of the day, when you are sitting on a 81% CD ratio, and I said that our comfort is at 85% and we won't like to breach 90%, which obviously means that if you want to grow at the same kind of a level for asset, we need to grow at least around 20% on the deposit side as well. Some part of that will do happen from term deposits, because CASA takes its own time. Having said that, we will grow on this quarter-on-quarter on CASA as well. We have put our strategy together, thoughts together, and we'll build CASA as well this quarter. We have launched some products under both savings and current account side.
You will see some growth on the CASA because I know that in our entire good operating quarter, that's the only black mark which we have. We don't want any black mark next quarter, we will have our CASA growth as well. Frankly, TD growth we have to sustain because when you are growing the balance sheet from a 9% last year to 25% this year. I mean, so far, I'm not bringing a forward-looking statement. And in one quarter, drastic change obviously cannot happen. We need to have some dependence on term deposits as well, because CASA will not give you overnight growth. We'll try and see that our CASA does not fall below 30% because that's psychologically not a good level to be at.
My challenge here is mathematically, even if you grow CASA faster than TD, it will continue to fall below 30% till CASA ratio goes above 35%, 38% or above 40% mathematically. We have to solve that math also, so we'll see how to do that.
Yeah. Like you said, we'll monitor the PCR, which has been out despite the black mark.
Yeah.
Blue mark, I would say.
Thank you, Pallavi. Thank you.
Thank you. Right. Secondly, on the PSLC, do we see that, you know, coming back in fourth quarter or this year is a complete washout, PSLC?
Let me put it this way. I am not factoring that income in my projections, okay? If something comes, that bonus. My theory is like this, I don't know, this is a kind of a conjecture you can say. This year what had happened is credit growth picked up to 16%-17% in the ecosystem and NBFC was previous year's NBFC. This year in the whole system, there was not too much of a stress on PSLC, and hence there was no premium on PSLC income. Okay? Everybody would have probably achieved their PSL targets. Next year what will happen, the reverse may happen that you will sit on a higher NBFC this year, and next year growth may actually taper off little bit.
Even if growth happens, it will happen not necessarily in PSL-oriented businesses, right? Like if your wholesale start picking up or some parts of SME picks up, et cetera, they might not contribute straight to the PSL business. Given the perspective, it's not all lost cause. All this portfolio remain with us next year, so we'll be able to get hopefully some PSLC income back next year. This year, last quarter, how many people will be short and how much? Because if they had to buy, they would have bought it by now. Why should somebody wait for the last quarter? I'm not so sure. We are monitoring it daily, especially in the month-end, quarter-end, we'll monitor it more daily.
Because we did it last quarter, there are only three days window where we got a 0.9% on PSLC, and we picked it up and we got that INR 3.6 crore. Just three days window we got, and we used it like an opportunity. We'll watch that and if we get that opportunity, we'll get it. I mean, whatever we can because it will otherwise zeroize at the end of the year, no? We'll get whatever, but I'm not so hopeful.
Mr. lastly, on the recovery side or like, we've seen, I think, the other income portion, the other of other income has shown a good growth. Can we expect similar kind of recoveries next year or in that quarter?
I can only talk next quarter. Recovery is something for next year, very difficult to predict. Our machinery is on and, our team is fully geared up for a good fourth quarter. Okay? Next year we can discuss and then maybe next call.
Right. Right. Right. Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you. Thank you, Pallavi.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Sonal Minhas from Prescient Investment Management. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for taking my follow-on question. I wanted to understand the corporate loan book, sir. In how does this work specifically in terms of you needing a? Sorry, there is some noise. I just wanted to understand the corporate loan book and in the corporate loan book, are you the lead banker or this is part of a consortium that is how we try and build basically a corporate loan book?
Generally we don't do consortium lending as much because, there's no point, participating in a consortium when you don't have a say.
Yes.
If you see, almost 35%-40% of our portfolio is NBFC in the corporate book, if you look at it. Rest is mostly distributed lending. Okay. It's mostly one-on-one kind of a lending. We don't do multiple banking, but not consortium. Okay.
Understand that. Sir, at a corporate level, I'm just trying to understand, is there a distinct reason a corporate or a new corporate would come to CSB? Is that because of the geographical reach or is that because of the interest rate? Or in a particular geography, you still, let's say, may be giving a discount over a larger bank in the same geography. Just want to understand the dynamics of this business when you pick up a new client. Is it price? Is it your relationship? Just trying to get to that.
you know, corporate banking is mostly about relationship business. Okay?
Mm-hmm.
On the financial market side, on the NBFC side, we have been operating with, and people knows that we understand that part of the business, et cetera. That's why obviously we have ecosystem and we have some amount of expertise on that business, so which we are leveraging on. Coming to other parts, what is happening is that, you know, people when they join us and we are expanding our coverage group, et cetera, primarily it happens based on the relationships people have and the products and services and the geography. Of course, we are little more stronger in certain parts historically. We are now expanding significantly in west and north. We have got very good leadership in west and north.
As we are talking, we are also expanding in, we are building our leadership in the upper south part, which is AP and Karnataka. While our strength was always there in Tamil Nadu and Kerala, but now we are getting stronger in AP and Karnataka and also Maharashtra and north. We have built up leadership in each of these locations. We have clear vertical segments where we. In fact, our board has guided and our credit committee has guided. In terms of which kind of segments where we can get the right kind of a risk-adjusted returns, and we are focusing on those segments. Also, it's a relationship business and a coverage business. All of this put together, ultimately, with all of this, we have a, not a very large book.
To that extent, this strategy works for us right now. In the long run, we have to build up our strategy based on solution products, transaction banking and other, supply chain vendor finance, et cetera, between SME and wholesale, that we are working in parallel.
Understand. Understand that, sir. Sir, my second question is maybe beyond the results. Just wanted to get a sense of the promoter group basically, and them trying to bid for IDBI. I'm sure this is not a relevant question, but can I ask, like, this question or this is beyond the results discussion call?
We are a democratic country. You can ask any questions, but I cannot answer because I don't know. Okay? That's the truth. I mean, what Fairfax is doing and what is their plan, they will... I mean, I have been told to organically build this bank, and I'm clearly focused on that.
Understand that, sir. Okay. Thank you. Thanks a lot for your time, sir.
Thank you. Thank you, Sonal.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Jyoti Khatri from Arihant Capital. Please go ahead.
Yes. Thanks for taking my question. One thing I just want to understand on the OpEx side, you said that you will be investing in technology and people over the next, you know, one or two years. Any number to put out there that how much, you know, OpEx and CapEx costs that you would be, you know, have in your mind?
Let's break up OpEx into three parts. Okay. One is technology, one is distribution, one is people. Okay. These are primarily three. Rest are relatively small amounts. When it comes to technology is again divided into two parts, CapEx and OpEx. Okay. Now, our CIO Rajesh Choudhary, who's a great guy, so I have told him he can run as fast as possible. Whatever he can run, we will fund it. Okay. I'll ensure that our business teams are tasked to get those revenue to the bank. Okay. Now, up to him, how much he can do. I have given him a whole laundry list of what needs to be done. Okay.
Starting from core banking to LOS already we're implementing three, four, five products already have implemented, some more to go. On the LMS, we have finalized. On corporate LOS, we are doing it. On corporate net banking, we are doing it. On mobile banking and net banking, we are revamping it. core banking itself is a huge task. I mean, I don't want to open it up into that detailed discussion, but let me put it this way. I have told that this is one investment. I will not because faster I get it, faster my payback period will be because in parallel with that, I'm making other investments in terms of distribution. Because of technology, I'm expanding distribution, I'm not able to leverage that. That's not very prudent, right?
To that extent, technology is as much as he can do. On manpower, et cetera, we have got a productivity chart given to my retail head, to my SME head, to my wholesale head. If they, I said that we'll not stop anything. As long as you manage this productivity, you please hire. If you don't manage the productivity, you cannot hire. Okay? When it comes to distribution, I said that we'll have around 100 branches per year. As our technology cost starts tapering down, we will go beyond 100 because I fundamentally believe branch is also a way to build distribution till you have at least 2,000 branches in this country. To that extent, we will start expanding the part.
I cannot take both the distribution costs and the technology costs together. Technology costs will start tapering in the next three, four years, we will pick up the distribution much larger than 100 per year. That's broadly what it is. How much? I don't know. I mean, I can't give that number. Depends on the stamina of our leadership team. Broadly, back of the envelope, I think, we should be... I mean, I don't mind in investing into almost 70%, 80% of our yearly profit also into these three OpEx item: distribution, people, and technology.
Okay. I mean, I mean from a cost -to -income perspective, we will see.
When I said this, I'm not... Sorry, I want to qualify this. When I said this, I'm not saying per year. I'm saying on a project basis. For example, next three to four years kind of an investments I'm talking about.
Okay. From cost income perspective, we will see. It should remain above 60% levels.
Yeah. Yeah. That I always said that, we'll not go below, 55%. We'll try and not go above 60%. We'll be closer towards 60%. By FY 2030, we will be between 40%-45%.
Okay. you know, another thing was, you know, how crucial will be, building up the retail, you know, liabilities, assuming that if it doesn't go through as per your plans, it could derail your entire, you know, strategy of building up a retail, you know, franchise. Is that so? Because I think currently everyone is facing challenges in building up retail deposits. That is one important crucial part in that entire, you know, retail franchising.
If we can't build that, we don't have a story either to tell or to build it. I will start from Believe that we can do it, we have the ability to do it, and most of my management team has done it time and again in past in various large organizations. There is no way I will even think that we cannot do it. Okay? Question is, you will see, I mean, for example, in most of the investor calls, what I have said in past, we have delivered, right? I mean, look at this today's call. We have almost delivered everything we have said. I don't even want to get into a discussion. If it does not happen, that question doesn't arise in our mind.
Yes, it's a tough journey ahead. We know how to do the building block. That's why we are not taking a shortcut to success. We are saying we'll build a franchise, we'll go step by step, we'll build the distribution, we'll build the leadership team, we'll build the technology, we'll build those products. That's why I'm not committing anything which is unachievable. I have done it three times in my past experience. I know step by step how to do things. Hence we are not committing anything which we cannot do.
Okay. Just last thing on, you know, on the margins and the credit cost. Any outlook, you know, for the next fiscal?
Margins, I've said before, I'm repeating because you'll see most of the calls, my numbers don't change much. I'll be happy with the NIM of around 5%. Okay? In terms of credit cost, we can't have a negative credit cost, but we will on a three-year basis will be below 40 basis points. Next year obviously we'll not reach 40 basis points, it will be lower than that, much lower than that, but it will not be negative also.
Okay. Got it. Yeah. Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Dharmavenkatesan KB, an Individual Investor. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir, and thanks for the opportunity. My question is in more on the EMI from you book. Have we explored any co-lending opportunities with the fintech or all of them once being originated from the bank? Can you give some color on it?
Yeah. You know, what is happening is we were doing some business on the fintech side, because of the new digital lending advisory or guidance which has come from RBI, we have gone back to the drawing board again, we are seeing how this will work out. We are talking to few partners and we are working on it. On the other co-lending, which is little larger, there is a technology development that is required. We are also working on that. Yes, that is very much in the thought process. That is a large part of our strategy. I think that will take little time to create the framework for that strategy.
If you ask me this question two years from now, I can show you how much business we have done in this.
Okay, sir. How many branches you have opened in this quarter, sir?
In this quarter? Around 40 branches, I think.
Okay, sir. My final question is that it's more of a generic question. Sir, suppose every, like, we are building up for the future, we are implementing technologies and other aspects, we are building across our franchises. Do we need any management bandwidth in Tier 2, Tier 3 levels? What are the other things you need on your management bandwidth to achieve the level of growth that we are aiming from maybe, say, five years or 10 years from now?
Sir, our issue is not the Tier 2, Tier 3. We are very well placed there. That's why you'll see that we are the net seller in PSLC all the time. Our primarily where we have to work on is how do we build a franchise for the metro and urban markets. Okay? That's where we need multiple products, multiple premium businesses. I can't say premium, but at least, mid of the pyramid to going towards top of the pyramid. Our challenge is very different to some of the other banks who are trying to grow from metro and urban to deeper geography. We are coming from deeper geography to metro and urban.
Basically it's a full franchise if you have to build, because in these metro markets and urban markets, if you have to be present profitably, you have to have a full service franchise, and that's what we are working on. Our challenge is exactly the opposite.
Maybe my question didn't get through properly, sir. My question was that on a management level, like, on our management bandwidth of Tier 2 employees and Tier 3 employees, How much bandwidth do we need for the growth that we are anticipating five years from now, or we will capitalize on the management side? If you got what I was saying?
Let me try and answer that. You know what? Because we understand that gold loan business very well, in the Tier 2, Tier 3 markets are very good on gold loan, Agri, MFI, these kind of businesses. Because we are very good in some of these businesses, rest of the businesses we do understand. Liability, assets, retail assets, as they grow deeper, as we create credit structures, and also digital is becoming a major part even in deeper geography. Not necessarily you have to have so many people in those locations to run the businesses. Okay? Except for gold loan. Gold loan is a very physical business and which you understand.
Most of these branches in the Tier 2, Tier 3, Tier 4 kind of towns, gold loan itself gives us very quick turnaround in terms of profits. But they don't make big money, right? These smaller branches don't make big money. To make big money, you have to have even larger presence than in higher end of the pyramid in metro and urban markets, because all large banks have top 20% customers contributing to more than 100% of their profit and 80% of their revenue. That is one pie which we have to build. We are not present in those, in that segment as yet. We are building that. That will take three, four years to build. Management bandwidth, we have enough present in the deeper geography. That's not a problem.
Okay, sir. Just one more final thing. What is your, the top 10 or top 20 deposits and advances concentration? Yes. Top 20 or top 50.
Top 20 deposit concentration. I don't know whether we give that number or not. Mr. Divakara, do we give that number? Can you share?
Sure, later on we can if need be, we can furnish that information.
Maybe on one-on-one.
12% . 12% . 12% .
12%.
On the-
Top 20%.
On the advances side or on the deposit side, sir, that is?
Deposit side.
Top 20 depositors. Top 20 depositors are on 12%. We are trying to bring that down further. I forgot that number. I've seen that. We are going to bring that down, round that number top, this thing over a period of time.
Similar number on the advances side?
Sorry?
On the advances side.
No.
Similar number on the advances side.
Advances nothing. 47%, 45% of our business is gold loan, which are all less than INR 2 lakhs. Okay? It is not very relevant.
We don't have any major exposure to one particular person or a company.
We may have two or three, but they are less than INR 200 crore.
Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir, and good luck for the coming quarters.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Anuja Dighe from Elara. Please go ahead.
For the quarter end, I just have one data keeping question. I think we have realigned our loan mix this quarter. May I get similar kind of numbers for SME corporate and retail for last quarter?
I think it is there in the investor presentation if you look up, I, if I remember correctly, our gold loan was around 45%. You can check it in the net. Our gold loan, I think, was 45%. Our SME was around 13%, 12%-13%. DA was around 5% and rest was on the wholesale side.
Okay.
Around 25%-27% was on the wholesale, I think.
Okay. Also another, small question. If I'm not mistaken, you mentioned that according to RBI recognition, the wholesale deposit base is around 60% of the book. Is it right?
No, I didn't say that.
Is it 50%?
No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. Let me first clarify what I said.
Mm-hmm.
The wholesale by definition, by RBI definition, if I remember correctly, more than INR 2 crore is called wholesale. Okay? It can come from any individuals also. I think more than INR 2 crore anything. If a NRI gives a INR 2 crore, somebody else gives a INR 2 crore, I think more than INR 2 crore is wholesale. I'm not able to remember exactly, but I think so. Okay?
Yes, sir.
What I'm saying by RBI definition, which is large ticket, any large ticket, which is as per RBI, you have to classify as a wholesale deposit, not necessarily the deposit has come from a wholesale.
Mm-hmm.
Okay? That more than INR 2 crore incrementally last quarter around 50%-60% of our business came from that. Generally, it's around 30%-40%, last quarter we focused little bit on more, around INR 2 crore-INR 5 crore of deposits because we needed to grow the deposit last quarter. Okay?
Yes, sir.
It was only incremental for last quarter, not our overall portfolio. Our overall portfolio is pretty much very granular, more granular than most of the banks. Okay?
Okay.
Even now.
Okay, sir. Okay, sir. That's clarified. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Manish and Axis Capital for organizing this call. Really thankful to all the investors and analysts for being so active and enthusiastic questions. I hope I could respond to most of the answers. Again, I would like to say that I'm happy that we could almost deliver all the parameters on a consistent basis. Whatever we have committed, we will work very hard to ensure that we don't disappoint you. Thank you very much. Have a good evening.
Thank you. On behalf of Axis Capital Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.