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Good day, welcome to DLF Limited Q4 and FY 2023 earnings conference call. We have with us today on the call Mr. Ashok Tyagi, Whole Time Director and CEO, DLF Limited, Mr. Vivek Anand, Group CFO, Mr. Sriram Khattar, MD, Rental Business, Mr. Aakash Ohri, Chief Business Officer and Group Executive Director. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vivek Anand. Thank you, over to you, sir.
Yeah. Thank you, Faizan. Thank you. Audible clear?
Yes, sir. Your audio is clear to me.
Wonderful. Good morning, and welcome to DLF Limited quarter four and financial year 2023 earnings webcast. Thank you for joining us on a Saturday. We are very happy to announce our business which delivered record performance across all key parameters. We'll start with the highlights of the business. Financial highlights for quarter four financial year 2023, DLF Limited consolidated. Consolidated revenue stood at INR 1,576 crore, gross margin at 57%, EBITDA stood at INR 518 crore, net profit at INR 581 crore, reflecting year-on-year growth of 40%. Financial highlights for Financial Year 2023, DLF Limited consolidated. Consolidated revenue stood at INR 6,012 crore, gross margin at 57%, EBITDA stood at INR 2,043 crore, net profit at INR 2,053 crore, reflecting year-on-year growth of 36%.
The Board of Directors have recommended a dividend of INR 4 per share, subject to approval of the shareholders. During last quarter, our residential business delivered a record performance by clocking new sales booking of INR 8,458 crore, reflecting a year-on-year growth of 210%. Cumulative new launches for the fiscal were around 10 million sq ft, and new sales stood at INR 15,058 crore, which is again a record number for annual sales booking. These figures obviously are on account of overwhelming response for The Arbour project, which created a new benchmark in residential sales by setting a record of being entirely sold during the pre-formal launch phase, garnering new sales booking of INR 8,000+ crore.
This strong response led to the preponement of a significant portion of Arbour sales that we had actually planned to release for the forthcoming quarters, approximately INR 4,000 crore. The success of this product stands as a testament of the immense faith that our customers have reposed towards our brand and a strong endorsement towards an aspirational lifestyle. The strong business performance led to a healthy surplus cash generation, enabling significant strengthening of our balance sheet. Consequently, our net debt now stands reduced to rupees INR 721 crore, one of the lowest levels. Further to this strong performance, our credit rating was upgraded to CRISIL A A stable outlook and ICRA A A stable outlook during the year. Our offerings across multiple geographies continue to be the preferred choice of customers, enabling healthy growth in our business.
The residential upcycle, along with rising demand for luxury segment, enthusiast us to remain committed towards scaling up.
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...similar phasing as in financial year 2023, which means you will see a significant portion of new launches towards the second half. I'll now move to the financial highlights for financial year 2023 of DLF Cyber City Developers Limited consolidated results. Rental income grew to INR 3,967 crore, a year-on-year growth of 19%. Consolidated revenue of INR 5,419 crore, reflecting a 19% year-on-year growth. EBITDA at INR 4,148 crore, year-on-year growth of 19%. Net profit of INR 1,429 crore, reflecting year-on-year growth of 43%.
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Hence continue our expansion plans in this segment across multiple markets. We continue to work extensively towards our upcoming retail destination, Mall of India at Gurugram, for which planning is at advanced stages. We continue to remain a positive outlook for both our businesses and remain committed to delivering consistent and profitable growth by bringing quality new offerings across multiple markets. We believe that our business, backed by a strong balance sheet and healthy cash flows, remains well-poised to deliver across all parameters. Right. With this, I end here. We are now open for questions and answers. Thank you.
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...residential part. One is how would you think about your sales guidance for next year after this INR 15,000 crore sales this year? Should we assume the similar 60%-65% sell-through velocity that you have achieved this year? Secondly, specifically in terms of The Arbour, why would you not hold on to inventory if the product is so good? Was there some, you know, issues on the taxes being better into this financial year which led you to this decision? On the office side, basically, what is the mix of the SEZ, non-SEZ in the portfolio? Are you seeing some pressure on the SEZ side there? On the retail side, you've said that the malls will double in the next four, five years. What are these products? A bunch of questions but thank you.
So Saurabh, good morning. I mean, on the guidance piece for next year, you know, that's a tricky one, frankly, because, you know, I know you are possibly leading us down a slippery path. The way we look at it, frankly, we try to be very balanced about it. I think in some sense, and I'll get Aakash and Vivek to chip in, I think the Q1 and Q2 are really linked to each other. In all fairness, our estimation and our plan on The Arbour was very transparently that it's an INR 8,000 crore launch. We'll possibly do between INR 3,000 crore-INR 3,500 crore in Q4 and the balance across in Q2 of the next fiscal. I think as, and I'll request Aakash to chip in, I think even Aakash, with all his decades of experience, was-
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...paid up INR 75 lakh each, they all have signed the agreement to sale, which is under RERA. Even that threshold was met 100%. Really, you know, frankly, we had no option but to. I mean, I don't think we had any rational or frankly, almost any logistical opportunity for us to actually defer Arbour sale across two or three quarters. I mean, it all came in one quarter. I think it's, you know, obviously a delight. It's also, in all fairness, left a lot of, you know, our own friends and acquaintances unhappy who could not get the allotment, and that's fine. Really, I would say that our normalized sale for this year should really have been in the range of INR 10,000-11,000 crore. It just happened to be INR 15,000 crore because this INR 4,000 crore postponement happened.
We'll still keep our head, you know, guided, and we'll say that next year we should still be looking at a-
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Absolutely. I think just to add, Saurabh, I think this year, we've launched 10 million sq ft of products, adding up to almost a sales potential of INR 13,000 crore. I think we got a-
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Ambition is very clear really to really grow from here, right? There is no doubt about that. Having said that, as Mr. Tyagi explained, from a guidance point of view, it will be INR 11,000-INR 12,000, which we believe is achievable, and we will certainly try our best to really beat that estimate.
Aakash, on Arbour?
Yeah. Saurabh, on The Arbour, let me just also come in. You asked a question about was this done for any tax benefits and all. Let me tell you, I was in the thick of things then. Short of being lynched and kind of, you know, taking a call on certain things on the ground, there was literally nothing one could do. It was such a pleasure, ladies and gentlemen, after a long time to see this tsunami of owners and I mean prospects and CPs and partners, strong-
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Group housing product in Gurgaon. A lot of work, you know, seeding had been done. As you know, compliance related post RERA only we can get down to doing stuff.
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15th February, to be precise when-
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In the interest of the customer's benefit first, a call was taken to do that. I don't think there was any. I mean, Mr. Tyagi and Vivek and have already talked about it, I don't think there is any tax related matter. I think it's very grateful for an opportunity like this. You should have been there to kind of live that moment with us. I think there were no doubts. The whole world and their mothers were here. It was a big endorsement to the DLF brand. I think that's all I'd like to say. The celebrations here have been very muted. Mr. Tyagi's strict instructions, I don't even know whether to celebrate or take your compliments, you know, so.
Gratitude is the operative word.
Yeah. Yes. Okay.
Sorry.
I'm sorry.
Saurabh.
Moving on to the rental portfolio, Saurabh, your question was SEZ -
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In terms of rental income falls to below 20, 22%, 20 odd %. SEZ is a little concern in the market because of the sunset clause. In our portfolio, our SEZ has maintained a vacancy of about 15-.
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The combined vacancy is about 10%. While this is happening, we have been advocating and socializing through the CII and the NAREDCO and the Asia Pac Real Estate Association with the Ministry of Finance, Department of Revenue and with the Commerce Ministry. I am given to understand that they are in the final stages of amending the SEZ Act rules, which is within the power of the commerce minister, which will extend the building-wise denotification to a floor-wise denotification. I also understand that the Ministry of Commerce is going to lean on the development commissioners to ease the speed at which the denotification is allowed. There is a little pain, I would say, for the next few months, but I don't see it lasting for long.
This will have two impacts: one, a very positive impact and one, a slight negative impact. The positive impact is that it will bring very high-quality real estate to the market with the ability to lease. Developers who have these developments in good locations and have credibility will do well. Marginally, especially in, say, Hyderabad, there'll be a slight subdued rentals for about two, three quarters before some of the stock gets absorbed. While there is a temporary blip, but I believe it's very, very temporary and see Ministry of Commerce comes out with the new guidelines, I think we will do well.
In terms of our budgeting, et cetera, we have been cautious for the next year, we are going with the assumption that SEZ vacancy will remain by and large similar. It will improve by 100-200 basis points. On the mall space, yes, doubling is very much on the cards. If you have seen the analyst presentations, 2 million worth of retail is under, about 1.5 million retail is under construction in the books of DLF. We've got the Avenue Mall, Goa, which is, construction is going on full swing. The two high street shopping centers, one in DLF Phase 5 and the other near DLF Midtown, the construction is in full swing. Our plan for Mall of India, Gurgaon, has now reached at quite an advanced stage.
I dare say that when we meet next time, we'll probably share the news with you that construction has either commenced or is about to commence. If you take about 2.6 million for Downtown, sorry, Mall of India, Gurgaon, and you take the existing developments that are happening, the total automatically is roughly double of where we stand today at between 4 million-4.5 million sq ft. One more point on the expansion I would like to share, that in the Vasant Kunj complex, where we have two malls, the Promenade and the Emporio, the total size of these malls is about 800,000 sq ft, slightly below 800,000. We have the potential FAR to do another 500,000 sq ft in that complex.
That's right in the center of town. Unlike some of our competitors, we have yet not utilized this FAR, and we plan to, we are also sort of, going through a master planning of, those sites. We plan to take it up after the construction at Mall of India has commenced and has stabilized. Similarly, at DLF Avenue in Saket, we have the ability to construct another 200,000 sq ft of GLA, which we shall do at a later date, because as you know, we've just renovated DLF Avenue about two and a half years back, and we would let it through for some time before we take up that GLA.
Thank you, sir. Thank you for the detailed response. I'll come back in the queue. I have a few more. Thank you so much.
Sure.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pritesh Sheth from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Good morning to everyone. Firstly, congratulations on, you know, a great year. Congratulations on surpassing everyone to be the largest developer in residential this year. My first question is again on The Arbour. This is with regards to pricing rather than, you know, the demand. You know, what's the strategy here? Because since our last Investor Day last year, you know, it came across that, you know, we are very, you know, optimistic on the pricing part. You know, while in The Arbour, we started probably at lower rate than the market was expecting. We have sold at around 17,800 per square feet.
I'm not trying to criticize but just wanted understand the strategy from here on. Were we trying to suppress the price increase that was happening in Gurgaon could potentially impact affordability in the future. So just wanted to understand your thoughts on that.
As far as The Arbour is concerned, again, with this particular thing, as I said, it's been great learning. As far as the price points are concerned, we deliberated. It went back and forth. See, when you're sourcing leads and when you're setting up a certain agenda, you should always set it up at a high, higher price point. Because to build it from a ground up story is, you know, you, there are more disappointments than anything else because everybody has to plan their budgets. When you're doing something like that, you'd always. Because even your numbers aren't finalized and all that, you are kind of sussing the market out. You always put it out in a way as transparent as possible and say you're gonna be whereabouts a certain number.
That's what we did. With regard to. See, what happens is there are two things here. If you've been, you know, projects, where other developers have launched a month after, when the collections begin, that's when it actually gives you the real picture of what the demand is, you know. That's when most of the cancellations and all that happen. That speculation is something, and then there is this hardcore people back it up with money. That's one. With regard to The Arbour, again-
In terms of price strategy, I, that area, let me tell you, we are still about, at least about maybe 20%-25%, if not more, higher than that what that Golf Course Extension area demanded or traded at point in time. To be fair, I think we could have, to your point, gone up to maybe 40%, 50%, but I think sometimes sales is more important, and to create that a certain amount of hype and actual test out the market is more important than just playing around with price points, you know. I think that's where it was. As it stands in the golf course extension, I can talk about 14th of February.
I don't think there was any trade that was happening beyond INR 14,000, irrespective of what people were saying. They would start launch a product at INR 17,000 and then discount it by INR 3,000-4,000. Really I don't think the prices went beyond that. Therefore, for us to, you know, come on with or to launch something at an INR 18,000 was for that area was a new benchmark. Please, you know, understand there is a clear distinction between Golf Course or DLF Phase 5 or Golf Course Road versus that. Yet, we launched, I thought the pricing was pretty aggressive, you know, at INR 18,000. Now that you look at it in retrospect, yes, could you have done better? I'm sure we could have done more, but I think we'll do much more future.
That's okay. I think... I hope I've been able to explain that to you.
Also for a relatively new micro market, it's in retrospect, it wasn't a bad idea to leave some markup for the customers also. I mean, it also sort of thrills them that they are almost making, you know, a certain markup almost within 90 days of buying. Yeah.
Also just to add, as Aakash rightly said, that in that micro market our pricing is almost 15%.
Right.
higher than the market. I would also like to add on the quality of sales, right? See, pricing cannot be just put that in isolation, right? If you really look at the quality of sales, we've been able to not only sell the entirety in 3 months, but we've been able to actually collect 10% within first 30 days. We've been able to sign agreements with all 1,134 customers in the first 30 days. We are happy to share that our end user estimation is higher than 55%. I think you have to really look at everything in totality and not just one element of sales, which is pricing.
Sure. That's very clear. Thanks for raising that, you know, end user point. You know, of late I've seen, you know, company marketing its project in Singapore and Dubai. We have started this, you know, obviously NRI marketing as well, which would have been prevalent earlier as well. You know, what's the strategy there? I mean, would those demand would still be considered as, you know, end user demand, considering that, you know, they are really NRI investors and they would always settle there? Sir your strategy on that .
Yeah. NRIs has contributed to about 20% of the business. We have, thankfully, I'm happy to state we have an NRI who returned from Singapore, Mr. Sriram Khattar, he invested in DLF property and lived in there. We are millions of examples like this. See, NRIs, I tell you something, this constituency, we were not aggressively targeting after having done that maybe previously when I remember when I used to run golf and other businesses.
Yes, sir.
They would welcome us with open hand, open arms and all that, it was a great relationship. After that, we kind of stepped back from that market. My, you know, colleagues who were kind of running it earlier. When I saw the opportunity right now over the last one year specifically, where there was constant and consistent feedbacks and demands from the NRI market saying that, you know, by the time they get prepped up, it's sold. You know, they never get the inventory, they never. I tried it out in a project called Grove in Q3. When we spoke about I tried it out in the Valley Garden in Panchkula and which you all are aware of. This time we went a little more aggressive.
Our NRI contributions have been almost 14%, 15%. If I look at 15,000, but actually we started, if I look at the 10,000 guidance we've given, it's almost 20%. That, that is a market which is ready. That is a market which is wanting good real estate and investments to make and for the future. I mean, I've seen so many NRIs come back and want to settle in areas which are fully provided for, you know, security, safety, each aspects that they look at, green, you know, sustainable. I think that's what DLF stands for. I'm seeing a tremendous demand from that market. I've been making those statements. I don't know whether you got a chance to read them.
Whether it's the Middle East, U.S. is one of our biggest markets. Then of course, you've got, Southeast Asia. I think this time there was a concerted plan, from Q1 to target the NRIs. It's borne a lot of good fruit. This year again we'll continue the trend. NRIs have, you know, what I, think right now is.
They always love to invest. Other than the Indian markets where they lost money previously, they kind of spent their money or wanted to invest all over the world, you know, other than India. I'm seeing that trend change over the last year and a half, very heartening to know that. We are going to be continuing to be there in those markets because they're very precise. They know what they want. They, you know, there are no hassles. They work like those countries, you know, the payments come on time, the agreements are done. Either they are on or they are not, you know? It's a very clear and clean system of working with the NRIs.
Pritesh, one more thing you mentioned about end users. You know, please appreciate anybody who is buying a 8 crore property, in most cases it could be his second property, it may not be his first property. When we say end user, we are looking at people who are looking to buy this property and holding it for a very long term, versus short-term investors who will buy, pay 20%, flip it over, which used to be the overwhelming trend, say till about seven, eight years back. These are people who are buying the property as a serious investment decision, either for staying or for renting as a second property or whatever, but who are not looking to flip it over short to medium term. That's what end user really means, you know.
You mentioned that if somebody is still in Singapore, how can he be a end user? I just clarifying that.
Got it. Got it. Thanks, thanks for the clarification. One last question on, you know, the launch pipeline for next year. It really looks, you know, too good. I've seen like around 4.5 million sq ft of projects being added this year. You know, if I adjust the second phase of The Arbour. Would like to know what are those projects that we have added to our pipeline? Probably The Crest 2 is one, you know, apart from that, you know.
Okay. The estimate for the current year is 11 million sq ft. Let me start with luxury. Luxury, we've given an estimate of close to 5 million sq ft, of which we will have a residential housing coming up in DLF Five. That will be close to 3.5 million sq ft. Plus another residential housing coming up in Chennai. That's bulk luxury. I'll move to premium, which is approximately 5 million sq ft, which includes DLF City, Garden City floors, and residential housing in New Gurgaon. We have projected some SCOs, commercial in Tri-City, Faridabad, and New Gurgaon. Finally, it's Noida IT Park and Data Center. Those are broadly the project and the location which are part of this 11 million sq ft for the current year.
Sure. Sure. Voice cracked up a bit in between. If I've got it correctly, there is a Chennai project which is planned in premium.
Yeah, that's right.
And there is a res-
Luxury.
Sorry?
Chennai is a luxury project.
Yeah. Okay, luxury project. There is a residential housing in New Gurgaon that is going to be a high-rise project, right?
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, it could be a mid to high rise. It won't be independent floors, but it could be mid to high rise, you know. Let's see where exactly the building plans finally settle at.
Got it. Got it. Thanks, thanks for a very detailed answer. I'll jump back to the queue. Thank you.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you. The next question is a text question from the line of Biplab Debbarma from Antique Stock Broking. As per news report, Cognizant is cutting back on 11 million sq ft in office space in order to save cost. Cognizant is one of the top clients. Is Cognizant vacating DLF offices too? Would it be a new trend?
Well, let me answer this question at a little broader level before I come specifically to Cognizant. See, after the COVID, there are two, three things that have got established. One is that India's digital backbone is very strong. 2, India has a compelling case for cost competitiveness in terms of English-speaking young techies on one side, and global quality real estate at a fraction of a cost on the other. The long-term trend does not change at all. The other is that we in DLF and my brethren in the industry are also seeing a shift from third-party IT service providers that too who are who have been very extensive in their approach and not focused on one side.
The trend moving to global capability centers, which are much more stronger and much more sort of sticky. Cognizant has had a bad run, and in our portfolio, they have given up over the years about 30%-35% space, primarily in Chennai, compared to what I understand about 60% space in some of the other buildings that they occupy. Does it impact us? Till now, no. Will it impact us in future? Yes, there will be a marginal impact of five, six months before we lease the place again.
Yeah.
Please understand that as and when, say, Cognizant vacates, our mark-to-market renters are about 18, 20, 25% higher depending on the location compared to the existing rentals here.
Again, just to react, I mean, reiterate what Sriram said, I think a medium-term trend you will see is a declining over time share of the third party IT/ITS providers with respect to the captive GCCs. That I think is just a trend that's just here and you can't deny that.
Just to take this logic a little forward. We have had three new buildings in the last three, four years, and you're aware of that. One is Cyberpark. One is Downtown 2 and 3 in Gurgaon, which is 1.5 million sq ft. One is about 3.3 million sq ft in Downtown Chennai. The total of these buildings put together is about 8, 9 million sq ft. I dare say that we don't even have a single third-party IT service provider in these. This has been predominantly taken up by the global capability centers, and the chunks in which they take up is larger. In these sort of 8, 9 million sq ft, the total number of tenants are about 30 to 35.
Yes.
That's a very positive trend that we see in our portfolio. We also see that the demand that is coming up and the potential inquiries that are there are quite strong from the Global Capability Centers rather from the third-party IT service providers, who definitely take up space, but the volumes that they take up are far lower. What moves the needle is the space taken up by the Global Capability Centers and not by the third-party providers.
Yeah.
Thank you. Sir, we have one more question from the same participant. You're planning to launch 11 million sq ft valued at INR 20,000 crore. What would be the ticket size?
INR 2 crore.
Yeah.
INR 2 crore.
Yeah, it ranges. It will possibly be in a range of INR 2 crore-INR 15 crore, I'll say.
Thank you. The next question is a text question from the line of Parvez Qazi from Nuvama Group. Of the 2.2 MSF expected to be completed in Downtown Chennai in FY 2024, how much has been pre-released? Thank you.
Downtown Chennai.
Yeah. Downtown Chennai is three towers, totaling to about 3.3 million sq ft. We have out of this already pre-leased about 2.8-2.9 million, including the some bit of hard options which two very large tenants have there. About 450,000 sq ft is left to be leased. I think it's been a very positive development, and it's been to about five, six tenants only. We are just, you know, now starting to plan for the... We have another 3-3.2 million further to construct there, and we have initiated the process of planning to start the construction of those. It will take a little time for this project to complete, say another 8 odd months, and then we should commence the construction of the towers.
Thank you. The next question is an audio question from the line of Kunal Lakhan from CLSA. Please go ahead.
Hi. Am I audible?
Yes, sir.
Firstly, congratulations on a great quarter. Secondly, you know, when I look at your launch guidance of 11 million sq ft versus 10 million sq ft last year, you know, considering the overall market is doing so well and, I mean, even a peer group like say M3M clocked, you know, record sales this year. So the underlying demand in the market is pretty strong and we have practically sold out or like substantially sold out whatever we have launched. The 11 million sq ft guidance, are we being again very cautious in terms of new launches here?
A, what I'd say, Kunal, is that, you know, I think especially when dealing with relatively premier end of the market for players like us and maybe a couple of players others also in the country, maybe it's also high time that the analyst community moves away from its obsession with the million sq ft number. It's a completely irrelevant metric really, you know. We do it because you guys want it. I think we should be looking at the pre-sales value, and most importantly, the margin that we are going to generate. I think from a margin standpoint really that we have planned to generate by new launches next year, I think we'll find, hopefully a very healthy clip growth over what we did this year, you know, okay? I mean, as if I can.
I can do 20 million sq ft of plotted colony in New Gurgaon, Indore and Chandigarh, you know, which will fill the head, but honestly, those things won't generate money in that format. I think we just need to be cautious. Also, please appreciate that in some cases, if you calibrate your launches well, you are obviously doing what you need to do from a sales and a, and a margin standpoint. There's also price accretion happening in those markets, which really with a little bit of patience tends to pay off disproportionately.
Sure. Okay, just to follow up-
INR 19,000 crore we are launching really. INR 11 million is not the metric. INR 19,000 crore is the metric that you should look at.
Sure. Sure.
Kunal, just to add to what Mr. Tyagi said, last year our average price realization was almost INR 15,000 a sq ft. This year it's improving or increasing to almost close to INR 18,000 a sq ft. Right. I think it's the way we see it's more of a value gain t han a volume gain.
Understood. Understood. just to follow up on your, you know, new launches which you highlighted for 2024, I did not hear about One Midtown. Is it scheduled for next year?
Well, I thought we are. One Midtown is this year. In fact, we've preponed it, Kunal.
From Q2.
From Q2 to Q1. You will most probably it'll be end of, we planned it end of this month, so it's going on well. One Midtown, is the last tower B. Rest is, as you know, we've already announced. It's going on and, yeah, so that in fact will be moved from Q1.
Okay. Okay. Basically the luxury segment launches would have of 5 million sq ft, would have three and a half million sq ft of phase V, and then One Midtown and Chennai Luxury.
One Midtown is a part of the inventory of 7,000.
Sure. Secondly, just again, a clarification on the rental portfolio. You did highlight that, you know, in the newer projects, you know, what has been the contribution from the third party IT providers. On an overall portfolio basis, how much would be occupied by third party IT providers? Are we worried on that side?
I would not be able to give you a figure offhand, but I can just say that the third-party service provider as a percentage of the total portfolio is declining. Are we concerned about that? The answer is no. The reason is that within third party service providers, it is not that everyone is weak. There are reasonably strong players there also. And to the medium size third party providers who do niche work, like in the area of healthcare or property management, continue to do very well. If any hiccup happens in any sector there in the, in the delivery sector, the reflection of that on the portfolio is minuscule. If one or two or three or four or five of the weaker ones leave, it does not move the needle on the portfolio as a whole.
Sure. Just a follow-up on that, what would be the if March 2024 exit rental?
March 24 exit rental should be in the ballpark of INR 380-420 crore a month. Yeah.
Okay.
The exit run- rate on an annualized basis, will be about INR 4,800 crore-INR 4,900 crore.
INR 4,900 crore.
Great. Thank you so much and all the very best.
Thank you. The next question is a text question from the line of Mohit Agrawal from IIFL. Two questions. How is the demand for Camellias since April, and changes to capital gains -loss?
The Camellias demand now, as you know, we are in the far end of it, and it's been established pretty well received, good references, everything going on pretty okay. In fact, the price points that you may know now have been increased to INR 50,000 BSP, basic sale price for lower floors eight and below, nine and 12 about INR 55,000 and 14 and above INR 60,000 a sq ft plus PLCs and everything else, which basically takes it to about anything between INR 45 crore-INR 55 crore an apartment cost. These are the regular ones. Of course the 11,000 and all are even more. The demand has been pretty good, and we've been able to kind of maintain our price points also.
As far as Camellias is concerned, that's been good. The with reference to your point about capital gains, I didn't see that much happening in Camellias, the thirty-first and before. They have two years to invest, so probably that'll be there. I don't know. At this point in time, we've got a very healthy demand for Camellias, which is, you know, continuing. The last whatever number of apartments that are left will, we'll focus on that also. The price points have considerably gone up since we last spoke, to almost about I think INR 15,000 a square foot, which is quite a big jump, you know.
If you all recall, 18 months back, the price was INR 37,500 a square foot, which is now the same, as I just mentioned, is anything between INR 50,000-INR 60,000. That's going on. Reference specifically about capital gains, I haven't seen that kind of push from that side. Yes, hopefully, I mean, they have the time. Everybody's seen it. As and when their money's come in, hopefully, I think we are on the top recall. I think we are on the top one, two, three properties to be invested in India. Yeah.
Thank you. Sir, we have the second question from the same participant. How do you see cash flows next year? What do you plan to do with operating cash flow in FY 2024 now that you are nearly net debt-free? Thank you.
Okay. Thanks. Thanks, Mohit, for those questions. On the cash flows, let me start with collections. Last financial year we had a good year on the collection side. We collected INR 5,300 crore of collections we had, which was almost a growth of 25%. As I look into 2023, 2024, I expect the same run rate to continue. We expect our collections to grow 20%-25% this year. Having said that, as you know, we are scaling up our business, there is a significant outflow which is happening both on the construction and the construction, including the CapEx side. We expect our construction outflow to increase by almost 50% during the financial year. How do we really plan to utilize this cash? I think that's something which is, we've been saying very, very clearly that our first priority is to put cash behind growth, right? We will continue to do that.
The second priority is to really continue to reward our shareholders, and we've done that this year, as you know. The third priority is to really repay the debt, right? I think in that sequence we'll continue to really allocate our cash, what we generate year on year.
Thank you. The next question is an audio-video question from the line of Abhinav Sinha from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Hi. Sir, congrats on a strong quarter. On the, just following up on the previous question on utilization of the cash. We have large land auction coming up in Gurgaon. Any thoughts on participating in the same?
As far as the land auctions in Gurgaon, I don't know which, what you are talking about is the large land auction.
The HSIIDC one.
No, HSIIDC is a very-
Global City.
HSI no. The Global City.
Yeah, Global City.
The Global City, in all fairness, at the price points that Haryana is talking about, we do not believe is a matter of interest to us as of today, frankly. HSIIDC and other Haryana bodies keep on coming up with localized auctions of interesting land parcels, some of which we do occasionally participate in, but those are frankly far smaller numbers. The Global City is not something we are actively looking at right now.
Okay. Sir, second question on the premium pipeline. The average pricing that you know, sort of bust out on the luxury end is around INR 25K. Fair to believe that the DLF phase V launch or stretch two could come closer to INR 30K? Is that the right benchmark to look at now?
Yeah, I wouldn't want to speculate on that right now.
Okay. Sir, thanks a lot, and all the best.
Okay. nice try all the same.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Sameer Baisiwala from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you, and congrats on a great quarter and the year. This is just quick two questions. One is, do you have any more land parcels in Golf Course Extension or any plans to augment over there? Second is, in the longer term, how do you think about the retail or the mall portfolio that you are expanding?
Well, I'll answer the first one and defer to Sriram on the second one. I don't think we have an active land parcel of any sizable scale on the Golf Course Extension Road right now. Do we? Sorry. We have one more land parcel here in Sector 69. We also have a very major land parcel closer to the Southern Peripheral Road, you know, frankly, which actually runs into, like, almost a couple of hundred acres, Sameerji. I think those are clearly, I mean, both of those are on the active list of planning right now, you know, frankly, and maybe a part of it could come up in the coming fiscal.
As far as what you said about are you looking at acquiring more space there? I mean, as you know, because of a couple developers on that, you know, on the Golf Course Extension Road, who have been under some degree of stress, regulatory or financial, there have been a few land parcels which keep on coming up through the banking auction system route, et cetera, you know. I mean, there are one or two parcels which we have been interested in in the past. Nothing's structified yet. You know, if something does, we'll be more than happy to come and disclose. Right now, as we speak, there's nothing that really, you know, frankly is looking at closure.
On the retail portfolio, at a macro level, the retail in India is going to be quite robust in the years to come because of the sheer economic growth that is taking place in the country and people moving from the to the middle class and from middle class into the upper middle class on one side. Two, within retail, organized retail is going to do better than the retail as a whole. The percentage of offline sales have not gone up for the last two and a half years, and I don't see them going up either. Organized retail in good locations has, in our view, a very bright future. If I can hazard to take a guess on the market as a whole, retail as a portfolio in terms of growth will do equal to or better than the growth of the offices portfolio. That's why we embarked on this journey of about 18 months back on doubling our retail portfolio from the present about 4.5 million to about 9 million sq ft.
You will retain the retail portfolio within DLF or would there be plans to spin it off? To the earlier answer, Mr. Tyagi, this couple of hundred acres of land Southern Peripheral Road I think mentioned, which sector is that?
Yeah, yeah. I know there's on 74, 76, 77. So in all sectors, there it is.
Got it.
There, there's also.
Okay, great.
Some of it is commercial, a large chunk of it is residential. I think it's a combo of both resi and commercial.
Okay, got it. Yeah. Just on the retail portfolio, sir?
On the retail portfolio, sir, the retail portfolio that we are developing in the DLF, you know, frankly, yes, you're right. I mean, most probably we would want to transfer it to hopefully Cyber City. As you know, that's a decision that has to be taken jointly with our shareholders, GIC. Frankly, right now we are developing it. Once it's complete and leased out so that a clear cap rate-based transfer price can be worked out. I think at that time, you know, we will engage with Sriram and GIC on trying to transfer that. Hopefully they will.
Yeah. To sort of clarify, out of the about 4.5 million-5 million growth, INR 2.6 million-3 million is within the DCCDL portfolio. What is outside the DCCDL portfolio is about INR 1.4 million-1.5 million.
Yeah, got it, sir. Very clear. Thank you.
Today, Sameerji, like MS Dhoni, you dropped yourself down in the batting order.
Yes. Next time I'll try to do it better.
No, no, Dhoni, like you, makes a huge effect at the end also.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ashok Tyagi for closing comments. Thank you. Over to you, sir.
Thank you once again, everybody, for taking out time on a Saturday and coming up and having a very, very nice chat. You know, as some of you who have been with us for a long time, I think really to some degree for a long time, there were a lot of business strategies that we had been trying to pursue. You know, we had our tough times, as you know, through the last decade and many years, both events local to us as well as local, as well as macro to the market. That's what it does appear that I think we are now hopefully hitting our peak stride, both in the DevCo business and in the RentCo business.
I mean, RentCo business, I think we hopefully run possibly the best office and retail portfolios that exist right now. I think our DevCo, I think we are hitting a good stride now. You know, hopefully our debt problem is conclusively behind us. The cash generation is now happening on a regular basis, you know. I mean, we just hope that the fiscal 2023-2024, we can sustain the gains that we have made in the last fiscal and continue strengthening ourselves on these things, and the market holds up. Even the interest rate cycle, which at one time, you know, was sort of beginning to loom in as a major challenge.
You know, hopefully, if not at the peak, we are possibly closer to the peak than we've been in the last 12 months. I think at some stage in six, nine months down the line, you know, things should begin reversing. India really, you know, is, I think on the cusp of a, of a very major economic upswing. Hopefully, you know, the real estate sector, both offices, retail and residential should all benefit from it. Really, and with that optimism, you know, I thank you again and thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of DLF Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.
Hello again.