Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the eMudhra Limited Q3 FY23 earnings conference call hosted by Dolat Capital. As a reminder, all participants' lines will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then 0 on your touchtone phone. Please note this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Pranav Mashruwala from Dolat Capital. Thank you and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Q3 FY 23 earnings conference call hosted by Dolat Capital. We have with us senior management of eMudhra on the call, Mr. Venkatraman Srinivasan, Executive Chairman, Mr. Shaji A. Lewis, Chief Financial Officer, Mr. Kaushik Srinivasan, Senior Vice President, Product Development. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Venkatraman Srinivasan for his initial remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good evening to all of you. Welcome all of you to our Q3 FY23 earnings conference call. Thank you for taking time out and then joining this call. The earnings presentation is available on our company website as well as on the stock exchange portals. We hope you have had a chance to review it. I'll begin with company overview. I would like to briefly summarize the company's overview for all the participants. eMudhra is a company engaged in trust services, digital identity, digital transformation, authentication, and cybersecurity solution. Within this, we offer a wide range of services and solutions, including digital signature solutions, identity solutions, e-authentication, paperless workflow solutions, Certifying Authority solutions, et cetera. Over the years, we have grown to become a leading provider of digital signature solutions and cybersecurity solutions in India.
eMudhra has a strong presence in the Indian market and also establishing its footprint in the global market. We have several accreditations such as ISO, the CMMI Level five certification, EAL4+ certification, and several other certifications. We are recently recognized as a great place to work by the Great Place To Work Institute, which is a confirmation on our organization culture and the faith that employees have reposed on us. Now we will proceed to review our recent quarterly performance. We are pleased to announce that we have maintained strong financial performance in Q3 FY 2023, and we intend to sustain the growth in the future as well. Our revenue for the quarter was INR 624 million, a substantial increase of 39% year-on-year. A significant increase in the enterprise solution business contributed to the growth in revenue.
I would like to present the key highlights and projects wins of eMudhra for Q3 FY23. One, eMudhra ranked number one under Identity and Digital Trust category in H1 2022 in IDC report dated October 2022. eMudhra currently holds 13.3% market share in India under the digital trust and identity category and is ranked first among 48 named Indian vendors in terms of revenue during H1 2022, January to June. eMudhra, in association with IDC, organized a closed door roundtable in Nairobi, Kenya, which was very well attended by senior leadership representing regulators, government, banking, energy, and the telecom industry, and it has generated a good interest and leads. We have been mentioned in Gartner Voice of the Customer report for electronic signatures which was published on 30th December 2022.
We have launched a trust service in Kenya with focus on driving adoption of digital signatures in the initial set of use cases in e-governance and BFSI. We have acquired a significant customer, which is a large state-owned entity that is a trust service and e-stamping provider in the Indonesian market for driving e-signature and e-stamping use cases with introduction of mobile-based digital signatures in Indonesian market. This is a very significant win in the Indonesian market. We have rolled out our certificate discovery product, which was one of the product envisaged at the time of the public issue for a very large public sector bank in India that will enable key and certificate lifecycle management across users, devices, etc., allowing the bank to secure their infrastructure using PKI technology.
We are confident in our future success due to our focus on providing digitally secured solution and our decade of experience in the rapidly evolving technology market. The expertise and commitment to digital security have helped us to maintain a leadership position in the industry, and it has given us the ability to expand our market reach both domestically and internationally. This experience would be an asset to us as we pursue new business opportunities, and it would be beneficial to our customers as they are able to provide up-to-date and secure solutions. May I now request Mr. Shaji Lewis, CFO, to take us through the financial performance of the company.
Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon to all the participants. Let me first take you through the headline numbers. Our total revenue for Q3 of FY 2023 grew by 39% on year-over-year basis to INR 624 million.
The enterprise solution segment contributed most to this growth. Our 9-month FY23 operational revenue shows a growth of 25% on year-on-year basis to INR 1,719 million. Our EBITDA for Q3 of FY2023 is INR 224 million, a year-on-year growth of 27% with a margin of 36%. The growth and margin improvement were driven by the enterprise solutions segment and operational efficiencies. Our profit after tax grew by 46% on year-on-year basis to INR 152 million with a margin of 24%. Our 9-month FY23 EBITDA and net profit were INR 667 million with a margin of 38% and INR 454 million with a margin of 26% respectively. We remain dedicated to adding value to our stakeholders.
We are committed to delivering high-quality services and are confident in our ability to continue growing and expanding our business. We are now open to answering any questions you may have about this recent performance.
Thank you very much, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. To ask a question, please press star followed by one on your touch-tone phone now. We have our first question from the line of Vivek Sethia with HDFC Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good evening, everyone. Just a few questions with regards to the operating metrics for both trust services and enterprise solutions. Like, if you could provide the breakup of channel partners and customers for growth, for both trust services and enterprise, as well as within enterprise India and globally.
If you see the breakup, one is the number and the number of partners and the retail customers. If you see the number of partners, the number of partners grow to almost 106,000 or 107,000 partners. The retail customer, again, it grows to almost 2 , 36,000 retail customers. Because these retail customers, it has a different kind of product mix. That's why this time in the presentation we didn't put because we thought it was not making much sense to just put the number of retail customer. Otherwise, retail customer is grown. Also retail revenue, if you see, last quarter, the, this, Q3 FY23 to Q3 FY23, 22, almost 31% retail revenue growth has been there. That way, continuously retail revenue growth is happening. On the partner side of the trust service also, I'll brief you in terms of the numbers. If you see, though the number of partners increased and also the number of digital signatures have increased by around 10%-15% from the channel business, but the price has considerably declined.
Almost if you see over one year, price declined by almost 35% because the existing other Certifying Authority also reduced, and four or five new Certifying Authorities have also come. They have also gone ahead and reduced the prices, so it has reduced by almost 35%. This 35% reduction has been taken care of by 31% increase in the retail. The other thing is almost the SSL business has really started. Almost in this quarter we could go do almost INR 4 crore of SSL business. The other thing is the eSign and eStamping business has also picked up. While there was a 35% drop in the price of the conventional digital signature business, that is compensated by the increase in retail, increase in SSL business, and increase in the eSignature and eStamping business.
That's why the overall revenue from trust services, it almost remained at a similar level of, you know, INR 21 crore-INR 22 crore. Maybe even in the next quarter, I don't think much increase will happen in the trust services business because the newer certifying authority may further reduce the price by 10%-15%. We are very confident that will be offset by the further growth in the SSL business and also in the eSign business. That's why the trust service business, as a component of the overall business, has not increased, and it may almost remain or little bit more than the last year level. This is on the trust service business.
Okay. On the trust services side, how do you see this mix panning up, like in terms of DSC and SSL, if you could just repeat that part?
DSC, if you see last year, SSL business was not at all there.
Okay.
Around last November, December only, we got all the accreditations and the enrollment in the Apple and all that thing. Now then we started recruiting the people for the SSL. We have put a department in place and all that. That's where even in India and globally, it has started improving. Over time, what will happen, the retail DSC definitely it is increasing, then the SSL increase, eSign, eStamping will increase. The conventional DSC sold through the channel. There also volume may not decrease, but due to pricing, the overall revenue may decrease. That's where the mix will change.
Okay. These competitors which you spoke about that have come up, like what you said about the re-reduction in revenue from channel partners. Are these, like domestic or are these global?
No, they are domestic only because this Indian digital signature business is fully run by the domestic people only. They are small companies which are from domestically, not from the global people.
Okay. Okay. Got it. I'll be back in the queue. Thank you so much.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to participants, if you wish to ask a question at this time, please press star followed by one on your touchtone phone. Participant who wishes to ask a question at this time may press star one now. We have next question from the line of Abhishek Agarwal with Naredi Investments. Please go ahead.
Thank you so much for giving me opportunity to asking question. The first question. What is the client retention ratio in trust service and enterprise solution?
At the client retention ratio and trust service is very good because the overall number of customer retained is very high, and also the volume of the digital signature service has increased by 10%-15%. The key issue is the price because of the competition, so that way there is no problem with the client retention ratio. Similarly, on the enterprise solution also all the clients have been retained. Almost it is more than 96%, 97% and new client has also been added. Retention ratio has not been a problem.
Okay. second question, what is the contribution of retail in trust service?
In retail, if you see, the contribution was 30% in the last year. 70% in terms of revenue was coming from the channel and 30% from the retail. Now what has happened is almost it has become kind of 55%, 45% kind of thing. If you take only the conventional DSC business, the SSL business and other things are different. Because the conventional DSC, the channel revenue the per unit realization has reduced, so that's why the percentage has significantly shifted in favor of retail.
Okay. Sir, how many digital signature will be issued in this quarter? How many of these are retail digital signature? Because in retail digital signature our gross profit margin is higher.
Generally, if you see the per quarter, almost around 5.5, 6 lakh digital signatures are issued. Out of that almost you can say some 30,000-35,000 signatures are retail signature. This is what generally happens. Now because the retail is growing, it could be 40,000-45,000. Also now we have started issuing the retail eSign also. That could be another 5,000-6,000. The conventional channel signature which is issued is out of the 5.5 lakh, if you reduce this 40,000 balance, that's 5 lakh or 490,000 conventional channel digital signature will happen. There the price has, as I said, has reduced.
Okay. Sir, last question. What kind of EBITDA margin are you expecting in Q4 and then next financial year, FY 24?
For Q4 we expect to maintain the current EBITDA margin, so it should not be a problem. One thing is for the next year, FY 2024, we are also trying to grow this US market, grow a lot of other foreign markets. We are recruiting. We have recruited a US market head. We are recruiting 5, 6 sales people there. We are recruiting some people in Kenya. We are recruiting people in Saudi Arabia, everywhere. Because of that, the salary cost may increase and other office maintenance costs may increase. Those may not lead to immediate. It will lead to results, but there could be a 3-month, 6-month lag or a little more lag. That's why the EBITDA margin next year could reduce by 1% or 2%, but I don't think... Similarly, the product sales also may increase.
Taking a mix of both, there could be some reduction of 2%, 3%, but I don't think a major reduction will happen.
Okay. Thank you so much, sir. All the best.
Thank you. We have next question from the line of Ravi Mehta with Deep Financials Consultant. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. On the pricing front, are you seeing, the retail prices holding up or, some pressure there?
No, no. Retail price is holding up. There is no problem because it's. At the retail level, it is not. DSC is not a price-sensitive product. It is only this major channel partner through whom all the competitor Certifying Authorities are trying to sell. That's where they are applying reverse pressure to reduce the price. Whereas the retail, the other people are not selling direct retail. Mostly we are the only people selling direct retail. At the retail level, it's a once in a two-year product and used generally by director, company secretary, and CFO like that. That way it is not a very price-sensitive product. Retail price are definitely holding up.
any lever to increase that to offset margin pressures, is it possible?
Yeah, yeah. That is what we are trying. That's why, as I said, 31% has increase in retail business has happened. Because of the reduction in the channel price, considerable reduction, as I said, 38%, it has offset the reduction to some extent, but it has not increased the margin. That's what has happened.
The retail revenue.
Channel has not reduced and retail alone had increased. Probably it would have increased the EBITDA margin, which has not happened because of both of them.
Correct. No, just small clarification. The retail revenue that grew by 31% as per your opening commentary, is that fully volume-driven or there is some price, element also into it?
Mainly volume-driven.
Okay. Okay.
Price here.
Sure. Another question was on the enterprise side. We were expecting a good uptick in emSigner as a product.
Yeah.
Probably looking at the Q3 numbers, looks like, the uptick has not yet come. Any directionally any roadmap on that?
No, no, lot of uptick has happened. Almost if you see, ESS India from INR 17 crore it has gone to INR 22 crore within a quarter, which is a significant increase. In the foreign geography also increase is there, but because the last quarter went from INR 9 crore to INR 19 crore, almost more than 100% growth, comparatively this quarter appears a little lower, but otherwise good uptake is there. Even in American market we have penetrated, Indonesian market we have penetrated. When you see just quarter-to-quarter, little bit aberration happens, but overall lot of uptake is there.
And some color across the products in the enterprise side, like, eMaaS and emSigner and MCA.
eMaaS is only going in the Indian market. That continues to go in the Indian market. emSigner, lot of wins in the Middle East African market and also a good win in the U.S. market had happened. In Indonesia also we have won some one big company, that has already won, but that revenue may be realized in the next quarter, not in the last quarter. emSigner has almost 50%-60% cost, it cost to emSigner. MCA also a lot of win is happening in the defense section and also in the foreign, some of the foreign countries, this emSigner, MCA is winning. That way on both the segments there is a good uptake.
In this segment there is no pricing pressure or any competitive issue.
No, no. No, no.
It's only in the DSC.
Only in the DSC, yes.
Sure. Okay. Okay. Thanks. I'll come back in the queue. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to participants, if you wish to ask a question at this time, please press star followed by one on your touchtone phone now. We have next question from the line of Amit Chandra from HDFC Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity, sir. My question is on the pricing aspect for the trust services. Now, in terms of the retail pricing and the channel pricing, what is the difference in terms of the retail and channel pricing? As the channel pricing has dipped significantly. Has this... I don't know, have we seen such kind of pressure earlier also from the channel or this is the first time we are seeing this competition here?
Earlier also we have seen. If you see the last six, seven years, the price varied from so much it varied. If you see 10 year back it was even INR 2,000. From there it went down to INR 300, then went down to INR 185, then went down to INR 125. Almost it became kind of unavailable level. Everybody joined and then again increased to INR 375. From INR 375 again came to around INR 250 kind of level, at an average level when we were doing the public issue. After that four more, four or five more Certifying Authorities have come. To penetrate in the market though now they are reducing the prices. That's where they are going down and going down by 35%, 40%.
I think maybe in one or two more quarter they may even go down little more, which we have to fight and then over time it will become unavailable and some of the Certifying Authority will move out. Like that, in cycles this happens. This is not the first time.
Okay. now just to understand better, in terms of the issuing authority who like are eligible to issue this, you know, licenses, through the channel partner network. What are the entry barriers and what are the kind of companies, you know, which are coming in and selling it at a lower price? What is the, you know, our pricing in terms of, you know, till like what level the pricing can actually go in and the pricing war will, you know, settle at, you know, what pricing level? That's what I want to understand in terms of what extent it can go.
Currently, you see when we were doing this prospectus and exercise, the price was around INR 250, we had taken around INR 225. Now the price has gone to around INR 160 kind of level. Earlier, if you see three year, four year back, prices had gone down up to INR 110 level, and then again shot up to INR 375. I feel still it can go down to INR 110, INR 120 level also. It's possible. Which is what we should be ready and then we should give the full competition to them and then at that level, some three, four of them who are very small and do not have the numbers may move out. Again the price can increase.
Okay.
Soon also it may not significantly affect us because to that extent we will definitely shift in the retail and our enterprise increase will also compensate for that decline also.
You know, can there be a reverse shift that retail can shift to the channel network because the pricing, because of the huge pricing difference? Is there any like difference in terms of the offerings, if anyone buys directly and through channel?
I will explain this to you then you can understand.
Okay.
In the channel what is happening, there is a first level partner called RA. There is a second level partner called Sub RA. There are third, Sub RAs themselves are several times chartered accountant. There's the third level who are chartered on company secretary. In the fourth level is the retail. The first level in the country itself, there are some 40 people. Who are commanding and all the Certifying Authority just to try to sell to those 40, 50 people in a big way. The next level, they sell not so much directly to the next level, third level, which is what we are attempting. From the first level to second level, there will be some pricing reduction, but from the second level to third level and to the end level, generally, there is no price reduction. The price reduction...
Even in the last seven, eight years, when the prices have varied from INR 100 to even some INR 400, INR 500, and again come back to INR 300, and again at whatever time, the end user prices remained at INR 1,500-INR 2,000 only. It is not translating into the end user price ideally.
Okay. Sir, in terms of the enterprise solutions business, so how our enterprise business is linked to the IT services, you know, you know, like growth and, you know, the slowdown that we have seen in the enterprise solutions outside? Is there, you know, and obviously, it has, you know, increased significantly in the last two quarters that it has come off. Is it an indicator that, you know, the slowdown in the IT services globally, you know, will have an impact on this, you know, revenue segment?
No, no, IT service and this may not have any impact. If at all due to budgetary constraint, the new product expenditure they reduce, then it can have effect. Our product are all really by getting into our product, they'll save a lot of money. That's why I don't think the postponement of decision will happen. In the last quarter, again, though, because the previous quarter was 100% growth, there is a little bit reduction in the last quarter. It is not that the growth has slowed down or anything, but because the revenue booking also is based on the when you are delivering, then when you have completed, the various other things are there. That's where it is. On the overall trend-wise, we are very sure from last year, INR 36 crore-INR 37 crore, this year we may reach almost INR 69 crore-INR 70 crore.
On that, there is no doubt at all on the international business. It may not follow the IT services pressure or anything like that.
Okay. On a steady-state basis, what can be the growth that we can expect from the enterprise, you know, business and also in terms of the geographical expansion that you are planning? Which, you know, geographies you're seeing the highest potential in terms of expanding the enterprise business?
No, whatever growth rate we have been growing at 37%-40%, the enterprise business, we feel that much growth is possible.
Okay. Thank you.
Welcome.
I will, I'll back in the queue. Yeah.
Thank you. A reminder to participants, if you wish to ask a question, please press star followed by one on your touch-tone phone now. We have next question from the line of Tushar Sarda with Athena Investments. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. Can you hear me clearly?
Yes, yes.
Okay. I'm just going through your presentation. I have not studied the company in great detail previously. What I see is that your trust services are not growing as much as the enterprise solutions.
Yes.
The India business seems to have flattened out, whereas international is growing very fast. If you can explain this to me. I've joined the call a little late, so if you have already explained, my apologies.
Yeah. I already explained. Anyway, I'll repeat. The trust service.
I'm sorry. So sorry. There are too many calls going on, so...
Yeah. In the trust service, there are two things. One is the main conventional digital signature, which is sold through channel and sold through retail. What is sold through channel, in the last one year, there has been about 35% price reduction. That's where even in spite of a volume increase of 10%-15%, there is a overall reduction in the trust, the DSC business, which is sold through channel. This got compensated by a 31% increase in retail and also some amount of SSL business and the eSign business. That's why the overall trust service business almost remains stagnant over the last 2Q and also stagnant compared to the early area. This is what is in the trust services business.
Again, what I explained is the trust service through channel, there could be further price reduction, but with that, with our retail increase and the SSL increase and the eSign increase, we are poised to maintain the overall trust service business. It may not grow in a big way, but it may not degrow also. This is what I explained earlier. Coming to the enterprise business. Enterprise business in India also it has grown and abroad also it has grown. If you see India year-over-year from almost INR 147 million, it has grown to INR 222 million, which is almost 50% growth over the one year. Similarly, in abroad also in one year from INR 94 million, it has grown to INR 169 million, which is a good growth.
Even nine-month to nine-month basis, there is a considerable growth in the India business as well as the overseas business. The enterprise business, there is no problem on the growth from the enterprise business.
Okay. What is the growth you expect in enterprise business going forward? Will it continue the same growth rate?
Yes, yes. Almost, last few years, we have grown at 38, 40%. I think similar growth should be possible.
Who are your main competitors and what is your market share in the enterprise business?
Enterprise is a very large business. Predominant competitors are global competitors. There is no specific, this is the total value of the market or something like that. That's why the value of the market is also huge. If you see segmentally, the competition is different. If you see the paperless workflow solution, DocuSign and Adobe is the competition. If you see the CA solution, there is a Nexus, there is a PrimeKey, one more, Entrust, they are the competition. If you see the authentication solution, there is a solution called Okta, and those kind of solutions are the competition. In different segment, different competition. If you see conventional digital signature, it is predominantly Indian competition, which is the.
There are other certifying authorities such as Sify, then Pantasign, then there is Verasys, Capricorn. These people are the competitors.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you and all the best.
Yeah.
Thank you. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on your touchtone phone now. We have a next question from the line of Nilesh Shah with Envision Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi. Yes, sir. Thank you for taking my question. I'm not sure, but year-on-year, why has it been a very sharp increase in operating expenses and other expenses? This is what your two EBITDA margin is falling. Could you just throw some color on that?
As I explained earlier, we are trying to grow in the international market. We have set up an office in U.S., we have hired a head for the U.S. market, we have hired some sales people there. We have created our office in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kenya and all this. We have hired people there. Because of all this, also strengthening the setup in India to back our international market, that's why these costs have increased. This will have the corresponding effects. Maybe there may be a lag of six months, lag of nine months, the effect will be felt at that time. That's where the costs have increased, EBITDA margin is slightly lower.
Have they been incurred or will they be increased going forward as you try to grow in these markets?
What is it?
All these costs, have they already been, like, they've been incurred, but will they increase further as we try to grow in these markets?
Costs will increase, correspondingly revenue will also increase. That's it. We have only started all these geographies. In all these geographies, when the revenue further and further increase, we have to put more people, but that will be taken care of by the revenue.
All right, sir. Thank you. Thank you for taking my question.
Thank you. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone phone now. Participants who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone phone now. We have next question from the line of Pranav Mashruwala with CWC. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for taking my question. We understand, you know, the enterprise business is the large part of your growth driver going forward, right? When you think three, five years out. That is also the exciting part of the business. One of the previous calls, I guess a couple of quarters back, you had explained a large part of the revenue today in the enterprise business is more of licensing, right? Where you give the solutions on-prem and that's like, 80% is one time and then 20% is something which is like a growth on top or a maintenance kind of thing, right?
Yeah.
Can you just help me understand a few things around it? One is, there was a focus, a clear focus by the company to move more and more customers towards the cloud journey, right? Instead of giving on-prem solutions towards the cloud-based solution which you have. Can you give some color around it? What's the proportion of incremental customers coming on the cloud platform versus on-prem today?
No, incremental number of customers on cloud coming will be high. In terms of the revenue, the conventional license model will be better because in license model, in several foreign jurisdiction, the same signer. We still starting from $200,000 to sometime $400,000-$500,000. The cloud customer, it will be some $103, $200 per year kind of thing per customer. That's where I think in the cloud we have now got some 1,500-2,000 customers, but that will not still be a very significant revenue. In the cloud, another model we are trying in America is that for a large customer, private cloud model where yearly license we get so that there will be a recurring revenue also.
At the same time, the enterprise as such uses this cloud in a private way. There also the revenue could be more. In our first customer per year we got $300 thousand revenue in that model. That's so depending on the model it will fluctuate. In the cloud, what will happen, the number of customer could be very high, but the revenue may not be as high until we reach a very big number.
All right. Right. How do you guys internally think going forward? When you think about the next three, five years, do you really want to be more of a on-prem player? Do you want to shift more towards the cloudification journey for your customers?
It could be both because this our industry, two things are there. Main BFSI industry want on-prem or private cloud. They don't want to get into public cloud because of the regulatory reason and all that.
Mm-hmm.
That's where we are having a strategic advantage because we have built a specific BFSI version which is not there with the DocuSign or the Adobe and all that other competition.
Right. Right.
This industry most probably may go to private cloud or the on-premise, but the other industries can go to the general cloud. That's where we are trying to cater both the industries by offering different things. Over time it may be we may not be able to fully shift, but it may get into a still 60% on-premise and 30%-40% public cloud.
Understood. Understood. Understood. Just the reason why I wanted to understand is the part which is on-premise is more of a one-time business, right? For a five years, and then you need to keep on adding customers every year to get the growth in that business. Whereas the licensing the cloud would be more of a recurring kind of nature. That is why I just wanted to understand this better.
There are also disadvantages there. In lot of cloud, you can pull from one cloud and go into a competitor cloud also. That also happens.
Stickiness is lower. Understood.
It's true. Further add, even in the on-prem licensing, we put restrictions on the number of users.
Yeah.
Okay.
If they add more departments, more users, they typically have to buy more licenses even in the on-prem.
Yes.
Can you help us understand if you want to give a cohort, customer cohort, right, how does this generally move? If they have bought a INR 100 product today, how does this customer when you retain it over the next three, four, five years, how does this journey happen? INR 100 goes to INR 20 next year, and then you keep on adding products to take it to back to, say, some 40, 50 levels? How does it happen?
No, no. Initially, they won't go... Even on a on-premise model, they may not go for all the department together. They may go for one department. Let's say they spend $200,000. They may go on adding many departments, so that itself may go to our first bank in Middle East. Almost went from $100,000-$200,000 to more than $1.5 million.
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Slowly, like that, it increases. Very few people stop with what they have and only 20% maintenance they give. Number of almost 50% people go for additional license, go for additional country. Initially opt for one country, then go for multiple country. That way the revenue keeping increase.
I understand. This is the journey which you are saying, right? Can you give some numbers around it, like a net retention ratio?
Yeah.
or a similar number, year on year, how does it move? A customer cohort rather than a customer which we are taking as an example. If you just take a cohort of all the customers during the year, how does that move, if you can give some numbers around it?
From existing customers, how much revenue increase and how much is new? Like that?
Right. Right. Like over the years, right?
Maybe they will provide. I cannot readily give that number.
Okay.
We'll prepare and then maybe next time.
Maybe I can connect offline. Fair.
Yeah.
Okay. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on your touchtone phone now. Participant who wishes to ask a question may press star one now. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star followed by one.
Hello. Yeah. This is Pranav. May I ask a question? Hello?
Yes, Pranav, you may please go and ask your question.
Sure.
Please speak close to your mic, sir. Your audio is not coming very clear. Thank you.
Sure. Thanks. Just, could you help us give some more light on some of the new products that are under development and what stage they are and when can we expect to launch them?
Three new product we envisaged in the prospectus. If you see, one is the certificate discovery product, and the second is the IoT Certificate Product, and the third is the Remote Signing Product. Indeed, the certificate discovery product almost developed fully. Fully in the sense maybe 90%, 95% it developed, and with the demo and POC, everything shown, we have got a first large win also. It's one of the large public sector banks in India which has given the order for this particular certificate discovery product. With that, we hope a number of, and also one or two other large companies are in the pipeline for such product. With that we feel that from the next quarter we will be able to sell those product and then get revenue out of this product.
The second product, this IoT certificate and then the remote signing product, they are all in development, so they may take another 3-4 months to develop. Most probably by April, May of this year, those can be launched.
We've identified the target markets and target clients for these products?
Yeah, yeah. Target clients it is known. Once the product is ready, then we can market that. Even for the certificate discovery product, our target client is known, and we have already started marketing to the target clients.
Okay.
Already started integrating our this emDiscovery product with our emSign so that once it is discovered, the certificate expiry is discovered, automatically it can also enable sales from the emSign. That process also started now.
Sure. Sure. On the, some of the existing products that we have, any new use cases that we can, think of or try and market, to have another potential line of revenue? Just help us on that.
Didn't get your question clearly.
if, for some of the existing products, do we have developed any new use cases, or let's say maybe in some another industry? Yeah.
No, no, that's a continuous process.
Right.
Newer and newer use cases for the existing products are also done. Along with the existing product, the new product is also not a completely different line. It is within the same line only. We have same service, cybersecurity and digital transformation line only is also there. That way this will also complement the existing products.
Okay. Okay. Thank you. That's all for now.
Thank you. We have next question from the line of Sarang Sanil with RW Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Hello, Sir. Am I audible?
Yes.
Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, I believe you said that the Q4 margin would be in the same range as Q3, which is about 36%, right?
Yeah.
Correct.
Around that. Exactly nobody can predict it.
Understood.
We can say it should be around that.
No, sir, I asked this because in Q2 call the guidance was that, you know, in H2 we'll have 30%-40% margin. I understand the operating expenses went up because we are setting up offices in different countries.
Right.
employing different people, right?
Yes.
I want to understand. We would be below 40% this year on the margin front, right?
Yeah, yeah.
One more thing. I believe that our margin would improve. It is better. We have retail trust services, enterprise and outside India business is growing.
Yes.
Less of channel partners.
Yes.
Here are two parts. That is enterprise and outside, India has been growing very well.
Yes.
Still our margin has been disappointing. Somewhat disappointing. Going forward, you would have the same strategy, right?
No.
Grow our retail, enterprise and outside India, I believe.
No. Though they are growing, as I said, the channel, the pricing channel has fallen down by 35%. In spite of the 35% reduction in pricing the channel, we have been able to maintain the margin around it. That's what one has to include that also now. If that reduction had not happened, this profit would have been much, much higher.
Got you. Because we have volatile pricing in the.
Uh.
channel partners.
Right.
We are uncertain about the margin guidance and also maybe on the revenue front because of the pricing.
Yes.
Going forward, you would want enterprise.
Yeah. Yeah.
Going forward, you want the enterprise and outside India business also to grow faster, right?
Yes. Correct. Correct.
Understood. Okay.
Also the retail DSP, sir.
Right. Right. Understood. Understood.
Okay
Any price hike that you would be taking because we already have a pricing premium over domestic players in the retail side of DSP. Would you be willing to take any more price hikes?
No. Price hike we will not take at this stage. We will try to more aggressively to sell to retail to increase the number rather than price hike.
Okay, sir. Okay. The same strategy as volume over-.
Yeah.
value. Okay. Okay, sir. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. To ask a question, participants can press star one on your touchtone phone now. We have next question from the line of Gautam Rathi with CWC. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for the follow-up. Just wanted to understand one more thing. In your presentation, you call out that you work with 10 out of the top 10 banks, right, in India for the eSign product. Just wanted to understand when you think of.
Different product.
Okay. It's for different products.
Yeah. It may be for eMaaS product in some bank, emSigner product, different products.
Okay. Okay. When generally these banks work with you, if I take a product which is eSign, right? If a bank is working with you for eSign. Is it that you are the sole supplier for eSigns for that bank, or is there multiple players also with the bank and they have this wallet share concept?
Usually-
How does that work?
Usually they may take multiple player.
Okay.
Because banks are all bigger entity, they don't want to depend on single supplier.
Correct. Correct.
actually they may take up NSDL also, or there is another company who are reselling the NSDL e-signature.
Mm-hmm.
They will take. Whoever has taken eMaaS solution on-premise, there is no competition, so they have just used only our eMaaS solution. They have not taken any other solution. In e-signature, taking multiple vendor is always possible.
Okay. In eSign, then generally there are multiple suppliers. Do you have a... What I understand is eMudhra has one of the best eSigns in India, right? As a Indian player. Do you have some data set around what was the wallet share for, say, one of your bank, top banks, maybe three years back, and what would be it now? Is it like the direction, is it moving towards like a higher share you have been able to get in that bank?
No. Wallet share we do not have because nobody shares the data. three year back, if you see because of the other uncertainties at that time, we were not offering eSign services in between for some time.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Started getting. Our volumes are constantly improving. That's what we are monitoring.
Understood.
Not the wallet share as of now.
Understood. Understood. Understood. Just one last thing. In your DRHP I was just going through. There was a company, which had a large concentration, BlueSky Infotech, right?
Mm-hmm.
Just wanted to understand, how does it work? BlueSky Infotech is also a company which buys DSC from you in wholesale, right? Like a normal reseller. Any other reseller. It's the same pricing or is there a different mechanism there?
No, no. It's the same pricing. Gradually, consciously, we are reducing the purchase by BlueSky Infotech.
Okay.
That's where if you see the over the years, when in this year end, the overall, transaction with BlueSky could be much lower than what it was last year.
I understand that is one of the group companies, right? Like it’s within the group.
Yeah.
Right?
Yes.
Okay. What is the difference? Why can't that be taken as a direct customer? Why can't that be in-house rather than going through that channel? What, how does BlueSky Infotech help us?
No, no. It was for historical reason it was set up. This has been explained earlier also. I will again explain to you. We wanted to understand, because we were earlier selling only channel. You see three, four year back, we were only selling channel. We were not selling retail. We were not selling to the second tier partners also.
Okay.
We were selling only to major partner.
Okay.
At the time, the major partners several time when the price problem came, they created trouble. That's why we wanted to understand the retail business, understand the sub-partner business and all that. That's why we commenced to that on a totally arm's length basis.
Right.
At that time the purpose was also there because the rules of approving the digital signature were all lot of physical papers. Physically paper need to be collected. It has to be attested by a Sub RA, attested by the RA and all that. In 2019 end, all these regulations also changed. That way the need for this has gradually changed. That's where going forward we feel directly a lot of thing can be done by the eMudhra itself. That's why the BlueSky may not be doing that.
Got it. Got it. This is very helpful. Thanks a lot. Thanks.
Yeah. Great.
Thank you. Anyone who wishes to ask a question at this time may press star and one on their touchtone phone now. We have next question from the line of Sarang Sanil with RW Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the follow-up opportunity. Sir, anything to call out on the other expenses side? We see on a year-over-year basis it's grown, right? Anything to call out there on the other expenses side?
The other expenses, as I said, because we are establishing number of offices. Number of offices, that's where, and more people are there with the company, that's why the other expense also going up. Other than that, there is no specific peculiar reason for it to grow, go up or anything.
Sir, what would be the main component, the other expense?
All other thing. Other than salary, whatever is there. No, all electricity bill, then the bus transportation what we provide to the employees.
Okay.
Marketing, so many things.
Right. Because when we've seen the annual report on the other operating expenses, we could see, you know, mainly the commissions was a big component. Now that you've said that, you know.
No, no. Operating expense is separate, other expense is separate.
Right. Yeah.
Operating expense is a direct expense relating to sales, which consists of two, three things. Whenever on any sale, any hardware component is involved, we purchase those hardware. No, we don't manufacture it, that becomes an operating expense. Similarly, whenever we pay any partner commission for a particular sale, those things, for example, even in enterprise we several time pay 20% partner commission. Similarly, in channel also we pay partner commission. Those commissions are all directly related to sale. That is what becomes operating expenses. The other expenses are the other administration, selling and various other expenses.
Okay. It's understandable. Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you. We have a next question from the line of Deep Master with One-Up Financial Consultants. Please go ahead.
Hi. I just wanted to, you know, understand a bit more about your enterprise business in terms of, you know, kind of how it would be positioned versus someone like a DocuSign. If you could kind of, you know, just kind of describe where you would compete with someone like DocuSign or sort of where you rank on the enterprise space versus some of the other larger players? You know, what are the sort of USP that you can kind of bring to large enterprises?
Yeah. On the enterprise solution, I think this is more in context of emSigner, which is our e-signature work to on paperless transformation product. There, in terms of basically how we are positioning ourselves, DocuSign position itself as a general purpose contracting platform. Whereas we have sort of verticalized the whole offering to suit specific industries and more specifically industries such as banking and financial services where we have a specific version.
Right.
We also offer sort of on-prem private cloud deployments, ability to, you know, give a lot of flexibility to clients, which DocuSign does not offer because it's completely on shared cloud.
Our whole platform relies on this identity-backed digital signature. When you sign a document, essentially there's an identity link, like Aadhaar or PAN or whatever. DocuSign is a simple type as you sign electronic signature.
Right.
Except in U.S. market, pretty much the rest of the world relies on this identity-backed digital signature for, you know, authenticating or basically, ensuring legal validity of transactions. That's what gives us sort of, you know, unique advantages when we go and position to all of these regulated industries. Primarily the focus is on BFSI, right? Similarly, now we are undertaking efforts for pharma insurance. Pharma, again, also there's a lot of regulation, there's compliance requirements and also insurance also, you know, It's again, a regulated industry, right? That's how we are distinguishing ourselves. As far as the recognition goes, on Gartner, we are sort of ranked alongside, you know, some of these global players as a global full-service enterprise workflow platform.
The kind of customers we've got over the years are also fairly marquee names, with which we are able to penetrate various markets.
Thanks. That's very helpful. Who would the other key players be on the identity backside, in terms of digital signatures and authentication?
Sorry, come again?
Who would be? Apart from I mean, DocuSign, like you said, is not in the identity-backed digital signature. Who are the key players that you would sort of compete with on that side, in the non-U.S. markets?
Non-US. Regionally, there are smaller players who build some small platform to cater to specific use cases, but nothing as comprehensive...
Right.
-as the one that we have or, you know, for instance, the other big companies have.
Okay. Understood. There's no large global player sort of spanning across geographies in this particular offering.
Yeah. It's DocuSign and typically Adobe. Adobe Sign also.
Right.
is, another product. These are the two names that we typically encounter when we, you know, talk to global companies.
Understood. Fair enough. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. As there are no further questions from the participants, I would now like to turn the call over to the management for closing comments. Over to you, gentlemen.
Yeah. I would like to thank everybody for joining the call. I hope we have been able to address all your queries. For any further information, kindly get in touch with our investor relationship advisors. Thank you once again, and have a great day. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Dolat Capital, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.