Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Finolex Cables Limited Q1 FY 2025 Earnings Conference Call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference, please signal an operator by pressing star and then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Mamta Samat from Perfect Relations. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, Bhavin. Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining us on Finolex Cables Limited Q1 FY 2025 Earnings Conference Call. Today, we have with us Mr. Mahesh Viswanathan, Deputy CEO and Chief Financial Officer from Finolex Cables. Before we begin, I would like to say that some of the statements that will be made in today's discussion may be forward-looking in nature. We will begin the call with the opening remarks from Mahesh, sir. After which, we will have the forum open for interactive Q&A session. I will now request Mahesh Viswanathan, sir, for opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you.
Thank you, Mamta. Good evening, participants. Thank you for joining us on this call today. So as usual, I will give a brief remark about the quarter that just went by. So there are three, three distinct features to this quarter. One was the elections. It was held in the background of the elections, so the business sentiments were definitely impacted by the changes that were felt during the course of that three-month-long election period. The second was the extreme summer. So while this helped in certain businesses, it was the opposite in certain other businesses. And lastly was the extreme volatility in the commodity markets.
Copper, for instance, touched a high of $10,857 on LME, and also a low of $8,809 dollars on the LME in the same quarter. So that's a difference of almost 21%, sorry, 20%. And so these three major features impacted the business during this quarter. What started as an extremely promising quarter did not eventually pan out to be so. Our revenues improved only by about 2% over the corresponding quarter of last year, and lower by 12% compared to the immediately preceding quarter. And this is also reflected in the electrical cables business, where we where we ended up with a turnover of INR 1,031 crore against INR 1,011 crore in the last year, and compared to INR 1,200 crore in the previous quarter.
So like I said, those three events, or rather those three items, significantly impacted the business during this quarter. As we speak now, copper prices are still yet to recover. Yesterday was about $8,800. So what this has meant is that there is a serious pressure on price reduction. To the extent that was possible without hurting margins too much, we have done so, but volumes are yet to recover. Having said that, we had to revise prices downward in the month of June, and that impacted the overall margins as well. So we closed the quarter with about 13% margin overall for the company and about slightly over 11% for the electrical cable segment.
On the communication cable segment, the same metal impact was felt on the metal-based products. So that would be our coaxial cables, LAN cables, and so on. While optic fiber volumes were better by about 10%, although realizations were lower because of the ongoing low prices on fiber across the globe. We expect the fiber prices to recover over the next two-three quarters. So I think going forward, it is still it looks better, but for this quarter, the revenue impact was, I mean, the volume impact was overshadowed by the lower prices. The silver lining was on the other segments, which comprises of the new products that we have brought in, so that could be the fans, water heaters, appliances and the conduit pipes.
All of them showed a very healthy growth, both in volume as well as in value realization. Of course, on lighting, while there was a very good volume impact, the price reduction continues. LED prices continue to fall, across the globe. With this background, the profits for this quarter, after taxes, is about INR 122 crores, lower than, the corresponding quarter of last year, which was INR 132 crores, and of course, lower than the immediately preceding quarter of INR 146. Basically, these are the highlights of the quarter. So now I will, stop with my brief, and, I can take questions from now.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question, may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to withdraw yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to please use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Rahul Agarwal from Ikigai Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Very good evening. Thank you for the opportunity. So three calls, three questions. Firstly, on the wire sales, could you just elaborate, as in what's really happening post Q1, like July, August, what is the influence? Copper, as you said, is still not, it's gone down, obviously, but, how is the channel behaving there? And, bit of outlook on overall demand for wires, both housing as well as on the automotive industry, from the, from the balance of the year.
So, like I mentioned, copper is still down. Yesterday's close was about INR 8,800, I think. So it hasn't got back to, it is barely at March average levels at this point in time. As long as it maintains this number, I think, things will pull up afterwards. I remember talking about the high, or rather the increasing copper values when we last spoke in the month of May. And there was a question somebody asked: How long do you think this will last? And nobody was clear at that point in time. I had explained the reasons why prices were going up at that point in time, but I'd also said, not very sure how long this will last.
Well, within a couple of weeks after I said that, the prices bottomed out. It has still not recovered to the extent that we would like to see it at. In the meanwhile, quite a number of purchases have been made in the month of April and May by the channel, and there is still some of those stocks available in the channel. It is still not fully dried out. I think demand will start to pick up maybe once there is stability at the price level. If people see that the prices remain at INR 8,800-INR 9,000 levels, probably demand will pick up immediately afterwards, or one might have to wait a little bit longer. At this moment, I'm not really sure.
We did expect sometime early July that the prices would recover, but it hasn't happened. It has actually dropped further since then. Your second part was on the automobile sector. Last quarter, I think, was not such a great quarter for the automobile companies within the country, and I think we had a reflection of that as well. But as the demand starts to pick up, festival season is upon us anytime now, and we expect those demands to pick up soon thereafter.
Any comments on the industrial and agri side, please?
I'm sorry, I couldn't get that question. Any comments on the?
Industrial and agri cables.
Agri was good. Both April, May. In fact, we were unable to keep up with the demand between April and May. Now is the lean season, so the next pickup in agri would happen somewhere around November timeframe, when, you know, pre-sow, pre-sowing starts up again. But the monsoon season is basically slack season for the agricultural products. Industrials, the price change seems to have hurt it a little bit. It is similar to what I said about construction wire.
Got it, sir. Secondly, any update on the wire CapEx, and the fiscal 2025 cash outflow for the overall CapEx for the full year?
Okay. On the CapEx, happy to say that both the E-beam equipment have been installed, commissioned. From our side, everything is go. We are just waiting for the final clearance from AERB. They are supposed to come, inspect it, and then give us the go-ahead for, again, for consent to operate. So that's the thing that we're waiting for. We have invited them for the inspection. As soon as their schedule opens up, they will come and do that. So we are hoping that by within this quarter, we should be able to offer products in the market. The trial lab productions have all performed at much, much better levels than what the standards demand. So we're very happy with the products that have come out of our two facilities there.
The optical cable expansion at Roorkee, the equipment is landing either today or tomorrow at Roorkee. So we expect that by mid-October to mid-November, we should be ready to put them to use. As far as the preform is concerned, the structure is ready. Currently, the HVAC work is going on, and simultaneously, contractors are designing the ETP treatment plants and the other necessary features. The equipment, the main machine is expected to be installed in the month of November, I mean, October or November. So we are hoping the trial production can start by December or January at the latest. So that, those are the major CapEx programs in place. Besides this, we are adding a compounding plant for Goa.
Currently, the insulation compound is moved from Puducherry to Goa. Now Goa has reached a stage where it can sustain a compounding plant of its own. So we are putting a plant there. The permissions to construct have been obtained from the local bodies. So right now, our tendering process is on for finalizing the contractors. So hopefully by May, June of next year, that facility should be operational. This is broadly the CapEx plan. It is, I have to say, it's going on as we have planned. There has not been any glitches so far.
Sir, what is the cash outflow expected on CapEx for fiscal 2025, full year?
It will be about the same that I, that we talked about last quarter. There is no change in the outflow. Overall expenditure until next year, which will be around INR 500 crores. Bulk of it will be spent this year.
Got it. Sir, I had one more question if I may, please.
Yes.
On the consolidated margins, on the consolidated margins, if you could, you know, elaborate a bit on a three-year range, right? Obviously, pre-COVID, the business was at 15%. Should we work around 13%-14% to catch the right number for the overall business to consolidate? This is inclusive of electric cables and communication cables. So at EBITDA level, for consolidated entity, what should be the long-term EBITDA margin range, please?
Okay. At the entity level, okay, there is going to be a little bit of change here and there, depending on the dividends one receives from the associate company. But if you exclude that, 13%-13.5% is something that we should look at.
Perfect, sir. Thank you so much for answering me. All the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sonali Salgaonkar from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. My first question is, could you give the quantum of the price cuts in electrical wires that you talked about in June? And also, you said that impacted operating margins. So, should we consider this quarter sort of as a one-off and expect the core operating margin to regain, say, about 13% from the coming quarter?
Well, it depends on how long this, the commodity prices stay at, the level they are. If I go back to April and May, we were unable to satisfy demand, to the extent we would have liked. So what that probably has happened is there is a fairly large number of stocks in the channel, and when the prices tumbled, there was just, you know, freezing of orders on the channel side. So, they probably are still sitting on some level of stocks which they secured at an earlier price. Now, to expect us to cut down the prices to those levels may not work. So I think there would still be a little bit of resistance, for some time.
But then if the, if the commodity prices settle at where they are without too much of volatility, then you might see demand coming back in again. It is a little bit of conjecture, of course, but that's the best that I can offer at this point in time. So coming to margins then, if demand remains, at a lower level, then, margins should also be similar. But if demand picks up, then I think we should be back on, back on track.
Sir, what was the quantum of your price cuts in June?
I think we took, overall from then till now, about 10%.
From first of June till now is about 10%?
Yeah.
Okay. So my second question is regarding the overarching opportunity for communication cables. I mean, without concentrating on just about the near term, like one or two quarters, you had earlier spoken about BharatNet opportunity and the tender closing, and generally the impending 5G rollout as well. And now with your new CapEx coming in optic, could you help us understand about your broader part of the opportunity that you foresee for communication cables going forward?
Yeah. Okay. So, the one opportunity that we talked about last time was on the BharatNet opportunity. Glad to say that finally the tender, the bids were filed, I think, one week ago, last Tuesday or last, yeah, last Tuesday, finally. We have also participated in the tender through a consultant. The technical bids have been opened, but I think there is evaluation going on. We expect the price bids to be open sometime in the next month, month and a half. This opportunity is approximately, the total size is about between 15 million -17 million km, but this covers only eight states. There are other states which still have to come up for their piece of the third phase....
And we believe that opportunity is going to be as big, if not, slightly bigger. And then we talked about 5G rollout, and we also talked about how the, how the, the towers are still to be connected by fiber and so on. So the opportunity size is fairly large, and in that context, what we are doing is to ask the right thing to do. We're building capacity. At the same time, we are also adding capacity on the back end, which will give us better pricing and, you know, better control over pricing and flexibility as well when we participate in such large tenders. So in that sense, I think we have done the right thing, and, we believe that the opportunity over the next few years is fairly large. We are talking multiple, multiple opportunities there.
I don't want to put a number to the size, because it's all finally going to depend on the financing ability and the speed with which finance comes into the picture. But the numbers are fairly huge. We are still nowhere near where China is or even where the Western countries are.
Understood. So just to clarify, you mentioned that you have participated in the BharatNet opportunity, and by when can we expect to understand, you know, what part of the, this entire tender we have?
Understood. That's why I said so the technical bids have been opened, and the price bids are yet to be opened. We expect those price bids to be opened once the technical evaluations are completed. There are 21 or 22 bids which have come in, so I guess they will need some time to go through each of the bids to make sure that everybody is qualified and all the T's and I's are dotted and crossed. That will take some time. Probably by end of September is when one can really expect them to open the price bids. At that point in time, we will know whether we have been... how successful we have been.
Understood. So my third question is regarding your FMEG business. Now, this quarter, we have seen some very good growth over here. I do remember we had a target of breakeven. So, could you elaborate, you know, where we are in, into this achieving the breakeven from an annualized perspective, and what are, are our plans going forward for this segment?
If you recall my comments from the earlier conversations, I've always been saying that between INR 250 crores, around INR 250 crores we should be breaking even. We are there at this point in time. It's INR 68 crores is what we've done in this quarter. Times four is just over INR 250, and I think at this speed, we will be breaking even, barring any glitch.
Understood. So, very clear, and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to ask questions, you may please press star and one. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Namaskar, sir, and, thank you for this opportunity. Sir, firstly, you were alluding to the fact of the fluctuations in copper prices, which resulted into lowering of prices for the wi- in the wires and cable segment. Sir, do you think that there is also a shift that is happening in terms of the demand also moving towards aluminum being a better metal of choice in the cable segment going ahead then, because of the availability and the higher prices for copper?
Typically, aluminum, at least in our country, on the construction wire, people still use copper. On automobiles, people still use copper. On agricultural applications, they still use copper. Aluminum gets used more on the power cable side and definitely at some of the lower voltages, 110, 132, there are many utilities which prefer aluminum. So, having said that, our presence in the medium voltage power cable segment is fairly small. I think I have said this earlier also. Out of a total market size of about INR 25,000 crore-INR 28,000 crore, our presence there is only about INR 300 crore. We've always been a little reticent about that.
Payment patterns are, you know, we are dealing with a lot of distribution and utilities, who are not the most well-funded companies. There are leakages along the way, when you get the order, when you execute the order, and when you have to collect the money for the order. We have been a little reticent about participating in that portion of the entire market. I am not able to comment whether there has been a shift from copper to aluminum. It could be a factor, because obviously aluminum prices are lower. But then to push the same quantity of power, you need more quantity of aluminum also to be used there. That's something there. I can't, with any firm conviction, say that it has happened or it is happening.
... Sir, in the extra high voltage segment, that is, that is the EHV segment, what is our current order book and current out of the sales mix?
We have a fairly decent order book there. Our current order book is close to INR 300 odd crores. The challenges there are slightly different. It is more to do with between the time an order is secured and the time the order is completed, there are multiple challenges there. You need to get ROW permissions, which are a problem in our country. While you may get it from the civic authorities, as you go to execute it, a lot of people start popping up from the ground. That managing them is a challenge. And then, of course, there are from the time you are declared online to the time that you sign the contract, also there is a long waiting period.
The utilities have their own processes to go through before you get the contract signed and then the production started. Those are challenges which I think some of them can be overcome. We need to do better at that. I think that is where we are, we are focusing on right now. We have been fairly successful in getting orders. I think the next next step for us to, is to ensure that our speed of execution is good, and that the orders are converted quickly into sales and into profitable sales. So it's been a learning curve. I hope that the learning curve doesn't get too long from now.
Sir, sir, can you give me the revenue for the EHV segment for the last financial year and for the current?
Last year was about INR 130 crore.
Last financial year?
Approximately INR 130 crore or INR 123 crore , somewhere around there.
Depending on a INR 300 crore order book, what should we envisage for this year?
Our target this year is INR 240 crore .
Okay. Just a last point on EHV segment is, sir, what is the current scenario? I think so there is a lot of trust in the buy-in from the state discoms' financials now also improving and things like the renewables story altogether getting a lot of traction and a network to be built for the same separately. How does this segment fit in again? And going ahead, what should be an ideal order book position for you? As you told that we are in the learning curve, and that is the first process.
Okay. As far as the potential is concerned, the potential has never been in doubt. With so much of infrastructure needing to be done and needing to be upgraded, the need for high high voltage cables or extra high voltage cables is definitely there. Where our cables find a use mostly are in the transmission sector, where the overhead lines are getting replaced with underground lines, especially when they come into a metropolitan area or a urban area. And there is quite an amount of work to be done. Secondly, even all areas which were earlier serviced by 16 KV lines are now upgrading themselves to 220 or 132, and so on. So that need definitely is there.
The difficulty so far has been in the utilities being able to fund themselves to be able to handle all these CapExes. And then that is where the projects which announced today you expect it to be done in six months or one year, but then it pushes over to a couple of years because money flow is still not as smooth. If you look at the utilities, to some extent, they have been able to get themselves funded either through REC or through Power Finance Corporation. But then not everybody is rated on the same scale, and there are some where the projects go smoothly and there are some where it gets delayed for funding reasons.
So like I said, opportunity, I mean, the potential is never in question. It is more the reality of funding the projects. That is true for most infrastructure projects in India. Your second point was what? Sorry.
Sir, it was, it was on the EHV only. I think you have answered it.
Okay. As far as we are concerned, our present facility can, you know, at constant prices, it can generate revenue of about INR 400-odd crore with this one vertical line. To increase it, we need to put additional lines, but then the rest of the utilities, we don't need to put in. So the buildings, everything else is tailored for three lines, whereas the insulation line, we have populated it with only one at this point in time. Once utilization gets to 100% or gets to 70%-80%, then we can start thinking of putting another one there.
Very small point, sir, and then I'll join the queue. We are in the VCV lines, in the-
Yeah, only vertical lines.
... Okay, and so for OFC, I have one question, if the moderator allows me. Sir, for the OFC segment, if you could give us some understanding on how post the June exit, what are the OF and the OFC prices? And I think so, major players are running suboptimal capacity in the current scenario, in the country and also globally also. So it's-
You are right, because no big rollout has happened. So after the technical 5G rollouts by the telecom players a year ago, not a fiber has been consumed. BSNL has not bought anything in the last one year, nothing of significant, in any case. You are right in saying that most people are running suboptimal capacities, and therefore that is reflected in the prices. Also in the beginning of, or towards the end of, all through the last year, most of last year, there was a lot of cheap fiber coming from China. Then, in February this year, the government came out with an AD, and to some extent that is stopped.
But fiber prices still haven't gone back to where they were, let's say, two years ago. They are still sub-$4 at this point in time. But I think with additional demand coming in from either the BSNL tender or what is expected to come subsequently from the other states, plus now that telecom companies have revised their tariffs upwards, they will have a little more cash to spend on CapEx. We do expect more fiber to be utilized in connectivity over the next year and a half.
Okay, sir. I joined the queue. I have one question. May I ask now or later?
I'm okay. Yeah.
Sir, but as you mentioned about, firstly, about the BharatNet technical tender being open and the financial one will take some time, and there's about the telco part of the story, also the revival of Vodafone post their FPO. So in, for the OFC, in particular, optic fiber cable, what kind of demand can we see? Because as the prices are lower, the CapEx cost would be lower for the telco. This is one of the best opportunities to put the CapEx in front, because the cost of OFC is trading at multi-year low.
I don't deny that, but they haven't done so, so far. So which is why I said, now that they have the cash to spend, if you see all the telecom players, whether it be Reliance or Bharti or now Vodafone, all of them have raised their prices towards the consumers, so they will have more money coming into the city. And that they could utilize to buy, I mean, roll out fiber across wherever they need it to be.
What could be the amount spent, especially only for the OF-?
Last year? Last year, there's nothing much to talk about.
What we can anticipate with technical bids, like you said, for BharatNet being opened, so therein you are getting an understanding what kind of, or what kind of money will be spent only particularly for OFC layout, laying out the cable.
BharatNet, the current tender spend is expected to be somewhere around between INR 50,000-INR 55,000 crore. I don't know who's quoted yet, but between INR 50,000 to INR 55,000 crore. This includes a lot of electronics and other stuff as well. The cable portion there is, let's say, about 10%, 10%.
Okay. And so at current prices, what does it translate into, the five km, fiber km?
It depends, it depends on the design. There are multiple designs there. There is a six-fiber design, there is a 24-fiber design, there is a 48-fiber design, there is armor, there is no armor, all of it put together. So I will not be able to give you an average. It's not as simple as that.
Okay. And our utilization levels, sir, at what capacity are we running?
Right now, our Goa factory is running full because we have orders from Bharti, so that we are supplying to them. Would say there is still some capacity.
And another which region, sir?
Pune.
Come again.
Pune, that is in Pune.
Pune, Pune. Okay. Sir, and, at total market share, what is our optic fiber cable market share?
We will be about between 13%-14%.
So, sir, we will stay in this vicinity, going ahead, since now there is no point in improving or increasing the capacity, or do we... have you planned any CapEx for the OFC segment?
That is what we talked about in the beginning. What we have done on the OF-OFC fiber, everything like that, we are putting up a preform plant, so we gain control over the raw material that goes into the fiber. We are adding capacity on the fiber draw towers, so that currently we have a 4 million draw capacity. We will take it up to 8 million over two stages, first from four to six, and then six to eight. The preform capacity that we are putting in now will give us an equivalent of 4 million km of fiber. The preform should be operational by December or January, latest, and the fiber draw out from four to six should happen maybe three-four months down the line.
So that will give us more control over the material prices, because currently we are importing the preforms, and we will have better pricing ability.
But the end product cables,
Cable, we have constructed a factory to house the machines, but right now, like I said, the Urse factory, still there is some capacity available. We will wait for the results from the BSNL tender to be known, and if at that time we believe that we need additional capacity, we will populate this, we will populate the place.
With this completion, margin accretion ..., for the optic fiber segment. I think that now we are at 2%, 1.5% or 2% margin. With this-
Yeah, so if you went back a few years ago, we were close to double digits. We were about 9% or 10%.
Okay.
We may... The aim is to reach there. We may not be able to reach there in one go. It might take two steps before we reach there, but definitely double of where we are today.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much, sir, for all the elaborate answers. All the best to the team. I'll join the queue and hear other parts. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. To ask a question, ladies and gentlemen, you may please press star and one. The next question is from the line of Sonali Salgaonkar from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the follow-up opportunity. Just two quick questions, and I'll keep it brief. Firstly, on the capacity utilization, could you let us know what is our present capacity utilization, separately into electrical cables and communication cables?
Electrical, under 60% now, around 60% now. Communication, like I mentioned, AFC, the Goa plant is running well, whereas, Urse there is still some spare capacity. So we're probably around 70% overall.
Understood. So it's good to know that we are not facing any constraints. So second question is, of our cables and wires mix, is it fair, understanding that about 60%-70% is wires and the rest is cables?
Cables would be about 10%-12%. The rest are all wires for various applications.
Understood. So we are more into B2C-centric wires vis-a-vis B2B-centric cables. Is that right?
Well, okay, if I were to say 100, about 10%-12% is cables. LT wire, some part of it is through the channel, some part of it is direct. Then, of the balance, let's say 85%-88%, about 10%-12% goes to automotive. That is, that is B2B. The balance is B2C.
I understand. That's about 65%-70%.
Around 70%.
Understood. So my third question is about EHV. Could you help us understand, say, approximately of our overall electrical space, how much would be EHV currently?
EHV is done through the joint venture. It's that comes on. And since it is a joint venture, we don't consolidate line by line. We're only consolidating at equity level there. But if I were to add that number, you add another INR 125 crore to the electrical space.
Understood. Sir-
This is on an annual basis, and I'm talking about last year's number.
Understood, sir. So my last question is regarding the margin of our communication cables. You did mention that we are targeting to achieve double digit or rather regain the double digit, 9%-11% that we used to do about three-four years back. We understand that's a two-step process, but, with the current opportunity that you, you know, elaborately explained, would it be a fair assumption to expect those margins coming back, say, by FY 2026 or 2027?
Yeah, if the numbers, if the volume comes in, then I don't see that as a major challenge.
Understood, sir. That's all from my side. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rahul Agarwal. Sorry. We have the next question from the line of Drashti from Thinkwise. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. So I just wanted to know, what are the prices of fiber optic cables globally now, and what has been the price change in the last one year?
Again, I can't give a single price point, because it depends on the design. You have, you have products which are, which have only two fibers in them. You got four, six, 34, 38, 96, and so on and so forth. So depending on the design of the product, depending on whether it's armored, whether it's an aerial cable, whether it's going to go underground, the costing changes. So I can't give you a single price out there. All I can tell you is that the price of fiber, which is one of the major elements that goes into the cable. That is around $4 at the moment.
What has been the price decline in this one year?
Used to be 5.5 sometime ago.
Understood. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. Participants, if you wish to ask questions, you may please press star and one. The next question is from the line of Rahul Agarwal from Ikigai Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, Manish. Thanks for the follow-up. Just wanted to delve a bit more on this OFC tender. The way I understand the business, you do about INR 500 crores -INR 550 crores annually on communication cables. If, let's say, you know, whatever market share we have, on the specific BharatNet tender, this revenue number, like, on an annualized basis, what is the revenue potential we are talking about here? And what is going to be the working capital cycle? Because my sense is, right now, the balance sheet is pretty lean. As of March, it looks like we are running, like, a 30-35 day kind of sale number build-up. Will that expand because of BharatNet? These are the two questions.
Okay. The way they have positioned it, you're right, with the receivables will expand for sure, but it will not expand straightaway by the value that is invoiced, because they have factored in a system where they will give you an advance towards managing the working capital. It is then up to the efficiency of the organization to see how quickly they are able to rotate that number. So up to 10% of the tender value can be claimed as working capital advance, once certain initial steps have been taken. So that's one part. But other than that, yes, there will be a slight increase in the receivables. They've also taken, I think, steps to say that they will make payments within 90 days or so.
Now, these are government organizations saying 90, which means 90 can go up to 120, I think. So that, to that extent, there could be an increase in the size of the balance sheet. What does it mean for any individual company? Like I said, the total expected spend on this particular tender is anywhere between INR 50,000 crores - INR 55,000 crores. That is over 16 packages. And all these packages have different sizes, but then if you were to take an average, so 55 divided by 16 works out to about 3.5 thousand per package. And no one company or one consortium can get more than four packages. That is the best that one can get.
Four times 3.5 is about INR 12,000-INR 14,000 crore. That has to be done over three years. 14 divided by three comes to about INR 4,600 crore per year. And so 90 days out of that would be outstanding. 90-120 days out of that would be outstanding.
And then you should apply the 10% for the cable portion of it also on this number, right?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so, yeah, this is at a consortium level. If you apply a 10% number on this, you're talking roughly about INR 450 crore of cable revenue.
Right. And that is provided all the four packages comes to one consortium.
One bidder, yeah. Yeah.
So my sense is the hit rate could be, like, max, it could be, like, 50%. So overall, we are talking about on a INR 550 crore run rate today. So you're talking about INR 250-INR 300 crore of additional revenue over a three-year timeframe. Is that correct? I mean-
Yes, per year.
Right. Is that correct?
Yeah, year on year, but it's per year also.
Yeah, yeah, per year. Yes, yes, absolutely.
Right.
And if we do that, so let's say if we run at a INR 700 crore-INR 800 crore annual revenue starting next year, at that point of time, we should hit 8%-9% EBIT margins, is what you mentioned. Is that correct?
Correct.
Okay, perfect. And secondly, similarly, on the EV side, just to clarify, I mean, the total, total asset time on this asset is how much? Like, what's the CapEx and what's the sales potential here?
The CapEx is slightly under INR 100 crore.
Right. And what's the asset time you are expecting?
Initial years, like about two, going to four.
Sorry, two to how much?
Initial years, two, going to four to five.
Gotcha. And typically, how much time will this take to achieve full utilization?
The application-wise, solar would be the first application that we are looking at. Additionally, we are working on designs for railways. So those would take a little bit of time before the approvals are in place. And then we have applications around instrumentation and automobiles. So the quickest, I think, would be solar and automobiles, followed by railways and instrumentation.
... So we're looking, we're talking about incremental full year revenue of INR 200 crore, maybe starting fiscal 2026, is that right to say? And what could be the EBITDA margins here?
I think it's still something that we're working on, yeah.
Okay. Okay. Okay, thanks. Thanks so much for answering these questions. All the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Praveen Sahay from Prabhudas Lilladher. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, sir. Thank you for taking question. So the first question is related to your CapEx. So all those CapEx, post that, how much the capacity is going to increase from existing? So if you can give the color on the, how much in the electrical from the, the capacity is going to increase and the other segments.
So the bulk of the spend is going on the fiber and fiber-related assets. So there, we are setting up a preform facility, which will deliver about 100x the preform, which is equivalent to 4 million km of fiber. Secondly, our fiber, currently, we have a drawing capacity of 4 million. In stage one, we take up that 4 million-6 million, and in stage two, we take it up to 8 million. This is where the bulk of the spend is going to happen between this year and next year. Finally, we have cabling capacity on the optical side of about 8 million km of fiber. Depending on the outcome of the BharatNet tender and additional opportunities that will come, we may take it up to 10 million km of fiber.
So this, that is still something that we are keeping it open. We've not placed any orders on anybody for that part as yet, but the rest of it, we have placed orders. So this is how the capacity will increase. So today, preform, we have zero capacity, that will go to 100 x. Fiber, we have 4 million km, that will go up to 8 million km over two stages. On the electrical side, we are increasing capacity on the automobile cables at Roorkee by half. So, it again depends on various designs there, so I'm not able to give you a specific volume number. And on the E-beam side, we are putting up a new facility which has two equipment, both of which have now been installed.
Okay. And especially in the extra high voltage, the CapEx has been done, what you are saying?
I'm sorry?
In the EHV side, you have done the CapEx.
The EHV side, it was done through a joint venture. It is not within this entity. It is in a joint venture where Finolex J-Power Systems Limited participates together with Sumitomo.
Yeah. So there, the CapEx has been done, or you are still in the process?
We have done. It's the factory is functional, but it, you know, that particular business has a very long gestation period of getting yourself certified and so on and so forth. So we are now in a position where we are able to compete in tenders most of the time. And most of the utilities have, we are qualified there. So there are still a few utilities where qualification is an issue, but otherwise, we're qualified for a substantial portion of the utilities, and we are able to participate in, let's say, about seven out of ten tenders floated. We are able to participate. And currently, we have an order book which is in excess of INR 300 crore. And what else is there to mention? Yeah.
At about 2:00, 2:30, 2:40, we should break even there.
Okay. Okay, got it, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sushil Chopra from... I'm sorry, is an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Thank you for taking my call, but you answered all my questions from the previous two, three questioners. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Sir, thank you for the follow-up again. Sir, for the E-beam facility, electron beam, solar cable, what is the size of we are going to set up? And, currently, when will this could be on stream and the CapEx being done? And also, sir, are we catering to the railways also, in terms of their rolling stock and cable requirements?
So E-beam, we have got two accelerators. One accelerator works at 1 MeV, and the other one works at 1.5 MeV. Both the machines have been installed and commissioned as far as the manufacturer is there. Trial production has happened. Quality from the trial production far exceeds the standard requirements, so we are very happy about the equipment themselves. We are yet to receive consent to operate from AERB, that is the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board. They are the regulatory agency involved in this, and we have called them for an inspection. Once they complete the inspection, we believe that we should have the consent to operate and put the products out into the market. We are starting first with the solar cables. We are also working on designs for automotive industry.
We are in talks with a few of the OEM here. As far as the railway is concerned, we are working on designs which we need to get approved by RDSO before we are able to supply to them. The other opportunity there is on the instrumentation side, which will be probably the last of the products to come on stream. So that's broadly the answer here. How much have we spent on this? Slightly less than INR 100 crore. That's the total spend. That includes equipment, building. I've not added the cost of land to this, because the land is something that we have, we use our existing piece.
Sir, in the railway part of the story, we have been hearing about this anti-collision part of the Kavach scheme. Therein also, I think so the requirement of the cables and other equipment will be there. So does the demand for the railway cable coincide or comes along this Kavach project only, where we will be supplying the same, or are these two different aspects altogether?
Honestly, I do not know, so I should not say something about that I don't know. So I can get back to you.
Okay. But sir, last, the point which you were mentioning about the railways, part that I missed, in terms of supplying cables to the railways, what are... what are-
What I understand is they do need cables which are E-beam cured, but then those designs have to be approved by RDSO. Anything that is supplied to railways has to be approved finally by the Research Designs and Standards Organisation, which is RDSO. So those designs are currently, we are working on samples under those designs. We'll have to get them approved before we are able to supply to them.
Okay. What was the cable category you mentioned, sir? I missed again.
No, they, they do require certain cables which are E-beam cured.
E-beam.
Yeah.
Electron e-irradiated cables?
Yeah, those cables are irradiated cables.
Irradiated cables. Right, sir. And for the Kavach part of the story, you need to come, come again.
I need to come back to you. I do not honestly know.
Okay. And sir, in the solar cable part, what is the current installed capacity in the country, and who are the major players, and what kind of annual demand for solar cables do you envisage, sir?
The number is huge. We are talking of what, 50 GW of solar or energy through non-conventional sources. We are talking of huge solar parks that are coming in, and all of them require, the panels require to be connected by cables to the inverters and so on. There is a very large requirement out there. The cables can be supplied either through chemical process or this irradiation process. The chemical process obviously is not that environment friendly, and in the long run, this is a better process to use. The requirement is growing, continues to grow. There are other suppliers today. I think a few of our competitors already have a line which is not similar to ours, has a...
It's made by a different manufacturer. So Polycab has got a line. I think Apar got a line, and I'm not sure about the others yet.
Universal Cables and Vindhya Telelinks are also have also reported in their annual report about the solar cable and the E-beam part. So we are competing with them also?
Yes. If they are in the line, then we will be competing with them.
Okay. And your market share in this solar cable?
Sir, we have not released anything, sir.
Sir, come again.
We have not released our product as yet.
Okay. No, what—taking into account the capacity which you are going to, and depending upon the total capacity in the country, what would be your contribution also?
Okay, you mean my wish, my wish part?
Currently, sir, ..., Uh-huh.
So you are, you are saying if this were to convert into 100% sales, what it will be?
Yeah. Yeah.
That is what you're asking, right?
Yes, sir.
I think we would like to get to somewhere around between 15%-20%.
Okay. And sir, last two points, sir. As railway parts, so definitely you will later on you will mention, but there are also signaling cables, quad cables. Do we cater to those segment also?
At the moment, no. So that is what I said when I meant railways. They have a lot of requirement of E-beam cured cables, both for their rolling stock operations as well as for their instrumentation operations. So these are, these are products which we will be able to supply by using our accelerator.
Thank you, sir, once again, sir, for answering all our questions and very elaborate call. Hope to hear more, sir. Next time, sir, please do get the data for the Kavach part of the story also where-
I will do that.
All the best to you, sir, to the team also.
Thank you.
Hope to interact further. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. This brings us to the end of the question and answer session. On behalf of Finolex Cables Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.