Ladies and gentlemen, good day, welcome to the Gujarat Fluorochemicals Q1 FY24 conference call, hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Nitin Agarwal from DAM Capital. Thank you, over to you, sir.
Hi. Good afternoon, everyone, and a very warm welcome to Gujarat Fluorochemicals Limited's Q1 FY24 earnings call, hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. On the call today, we have, representing Gujarat Fluorochemicals management, Dr. Bir Kapoor, Chief Executive Officer; Mr. V.K. Soni, Head, Projects and New Initiatives; Mr. Manoj Agrawal, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Vibhu Agarwal, Head, Investor Relations. I will hand over the call to the Gujarat Fluorochemicals management team to make the opening comments, and then we'll open the floor for Q&A. Please go ahead, sir.
Thank you, Nitin. This is Dr. Bir Kapoor, and first of all, a good evening and a very warm welcome to all of you on this GFL's Q1 FY24 earnings call. As you know, the company announced its Q1 result at its board meeting, held on 5th of August 2023. The results, along with the earning presentations, are available on the stock exchanges as well as on our website. I'll briefly talk about the numbers and then give you an update on the business operations and outlook. The company reported a consolidated revenue of ₹1,209 crore for the quarter ended June 2023, down by 9% on year-on-year basis. Consolidated EBITDA for Q1 FY24 was at ₹328 crore, down by 24% on year-on-year basis.
The EBITDA margin stood at 29% for this quarter. Consolidated PAT for this quarter was ₹201 crore, down by 34% on a year-on-year basis. Let me quickly take you through the performance of each business segment for this quarter. To begin with, let me talk about the bulk chemical vertical. This segment has seen a quarter-on-quarter revenue decline of almost 30%, primarily led by drop in prices due to excess supply in the market. This segment is also expected to remain weak for the next few quarters for the additional supply to be absorbed in the market and the demand to pick up. The fluorochemical segments reported a 30% decline in top line on a quarter-on-quarter basis, mainly on account of refrigerants. This has played out more or less as we expected and we had guided earlier.
Clearly, the weak summer in domestic as well as overseas market impacted these sales. We, however, expect H2 FY2024 performance in this segment to be better. In the fluoropolymer business, the prices remained stable. However, the volumes have corrected marginally on account of destocking. This advanced materials segment, which is fluoropolymers, continue to be the growth area for us in the near future. We have developed grades in each of these fluoropolymers, and the growing demand in most sunrise and new age sectors augurs well for our growth going forward. As you all know, this has been a challenging quarter. While we continue to hold in well in our fluoropolymer business, the macro headwinds impacted our current growth. As stated in our earlier call, we saw the impact of the destocking in our major businesses and geographies.
This is true for all major global companies who have witnessed the impact of destocking in recent time, and particularly in this quarter. Our thoughts are aligned in terms of outlook for second half of the financial year, which we expect to be better going forward. While the destocking have depleted inventories, we are closely monitoring the ground situation for things to turn around as things normalize due to restocking. It's early for me to say when this plays out, maybe possibly by the end of this financial year, but definitely the second half looks better. In quarter two, we expect to see things on the similar lines as quarter one.
However, as per the feedback that we have received from our customers, we expect the business environment to pick up from quarter three onwards and to become normal by the end of this financial year. Growth fundamentals for fluoropolymer business are firmly in place. There is no change to the structural story as the end industry segments, including semiconductors, EV, automobiles, among others, contribute, continue to be our growth drivers, ensuring overall strong fundamentals for fluoropolymers. This should augur well for the business as we have the capacity, the grades, and approvals in place, and we are in a position to capture this growth as soon as there's a turnaround. The battery chemicals piece is also shaping well.
Both the salt as well as the electrolyte plants are in an advanced stage of commissioning. We expect these to come online by end of this quarter, which is Q2 FY24. We expect to start recognizing meaningful revenues from these segments in FY25 post approval processes, which we expect to continue to grow. We expect to continue to grow capacity or, or expand capacity in this segment. With our commitment to long-term sustainable growth, we are progressing well on our PEM development for green hydrogen, fuel cells, and electrolyzers. We have aligned and transitioned our business towards the sunrise sector, be it EVs, semicon, telecom, green hydrogen, or energy storage. Regarding the CapEx, we continue to hold on to our CapEx plans, albeit possibly staggering some of the planned CapExs as we see this year unfolding.
Maybe some of these CapExs may spill over to next year. We are very positive on the opportunity in our core business segments and be it fluoropolymer or battery chemicals, and we continue to focus our efforts in developing new and higher value-added grades. With this, I would like to open the floor for Q&As. Please, Nitin, you can take Q&A. Thank you.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the Q&A session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use the handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question comes from the line of Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, sir. Thanks for taking my call. Couple of questions. First, on the new fluoropolymer, I understand that the destocking is hitting us, and you said that the H2 and Q4 will be probably the normalized quarter. In previous call, we said that we will be hitting a run rate of 1,000-1,200 metric ton per month in Q4. Do you think it is possible, or you think that, that target may get spill over to FY25? How do you see that volume ramp-up in the new fluoropolymer in the context of destocking?
Sanjesh, you have another question? You said two questions.
I got two questions.
You want me to answer this? Okay. Yes, I think there is a, as I stated, there is a in the overall market, and I think we are seeing our approval process going forward. However, in order to realize the full asset and capacity utilization, I think this may spill over probably by a quarter or a little bit more. Okay?
Okay.
Around that. I mean, there might be a little bit delay, but the plan is moving forward, and we are seeing a positive response in terms of expected growth in these areas.
A related question: Where are we in terms of getting approval for our battery grade PVDF and semiconductor grade PFA? Have we seen any feedback from the R&D customer side? Are we increased? Are we seeing some problem, teething issue, which need to be fixed? Where are we in this entire approval process?
Let me take step by step. The first is PVDF. PVDF, as we have indicated earlier, we have grades, and obviously, PVDF is not one single PVDF. There are for different types of battery application, there are, different PVDF. We have made these grades, and, our, grades are made, and they are being tested at the lab scale. Lab scale, we have received positive feedbacks also. The approval process is still taking time, because eventually these approval processes have to go through the final testing in the battery. This process is on, and again, slowed down a little, you know, because there has been a slight slowdown in the overall EV segments also.
We see it progressing, but we expect to get it in next one or two quarters.
Okay. On PFA?
In PFA, the situation is that there are, again, I would tell you that some of our PFA is going into semiconductor application as we speak. Semiconductor application also there are different purity levels and different grades, okay? While in the, the basic level, we have been supplying and to one of the leading manufacturers, we are progressing step by step into higher grades. As we get into approvals, we may look into expanding our capacities in PFA for semiconductor grade as well. We are well into that process, Sanjesh, okay? Again, I, I just want to remind you that there's not one single grade in semiconductor. There are, there are grades called at F57 and then higher and higher grades in terms of the depending upon the impurity profiles.
What I understand is that you said that you are making base grade, which you're already supplying to semiconductor grade, but higher grade. When you say higher grade, what are the application you are looking at in the semiconductor and?
Semiconductor, there are multiple grades which are there, and it's like going up the, the value chain. Because as semiconductor, again, is a very wide word, Sanjesh, depending upon the, you know, kind of the, you know, application of the circuits, whether it's, what nanometer, et cetera, there's a special requirement. We are already into this business of supplying to semiconductor industry. Yes.
But when, when we say higher grade, are we looking at what? Have we made some pilot grade or samples to be supplied in the higher grade, or we are still waiting for this basic grade to stabilize and then move up in the value chain?
This is a continuous process, Sanjesh. It's a continuous process, and we are continued to improve our grades and getting into higher and higher end application in semiconductor grades. This is being supplied to one of the leading manufacturers.
Okay. Okay. On the, on the comment we have made that in the presentation that we expect the fluoropolymer blended realization to improve because of the product mix. When we say this, we mean that new, more, more new fluoropolymer will be sold, or within the PTFE also, we expect the blended realization to go up?
It's both, because now we are not really giving a segmented, you know, profitability or the value. Our effort has always been within PTFE as well as on new, new fluoropolymers, to go for the higher and higher end grades, okay? As you know very well, for example, PTFE, there is a very lower end, there's a granular grade, and as you go up, there are fine powders and aqueous, et cetera. Similarly, so our effort has always been, is to upgrade and go to the higher value-added grades. When we say blended, we mean both, that we want to. We are slowly pushing our product mix to the higher end.
Why are we catering the both, as in, PTFE commodity grade as well? Because.
Yeah, the, that's a journey, Sanjesh. It's, it's you, you grow up because, because these are very, very specialized advanced materials. This is the journey that, you know, a manufacturer has to process because we have to go qualify for the higher, higher grade. You need to have a relationship and the capability to reach that.
Okay. On the ref gas side, I think your commentary with one of your peer has a very contrasting thing, where your peer expects Q2 to be better than Q1, while our expectation is that Q2 will be similar to Q1. Can you help us reconcile the position here? What are we missing in this commentary from our side?
It's again, it's, the future is anybody's guess in this case. You know, what we are, where we are coming from is that obviously this year, looking at the weather pattern, you know, you know the summer had been very, very weak. So we are looking and gearing up mostly for the, for the coming year, and we expect that that starts typically from, quarter four onwards or quarter three onward for us. Okay? So again, Sanjesh, this is, this is, you know, depending upon, the product mix and, and the markets in which one is operating, one can have a, one can have a view on that. Okay, I would not like to comment beyond that.
Mr. Jain, may we request you that you return to the question queue for follow-up questions, as there are participants waiting for their turn? The next question comes from the line of Ketan Gandhi from Gandhi Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. There are a lot of negativity around PFAS regulation in EU REACH and so forth. Even after-- I mean, one of the Indian brokerage report are continuously hammering that in the minds of the investors. Even after the news report on, in, published by The Guardian newspaper, which is a very reputed, that PFAS regulation is the thing of the past. Do you have anything to say on that?
We have, Ketan, we have always maintained the position that PFAS regulation is more towards molecules, which has mobility, which are mobile and which are bioaccumulative. Fluoropolymers, as a set of compounds, are a very long chain compound, which is. While it was proposed, but I don't see that being part of the any restrictions that may come into this. Because right now. Again, the PFAS regulation was more towards application of fluorochemical compounds or surfactant, which is geared towards a large number of consumer applications, okay, whether it's related to, to upholstery or the carpet or the stain repellents, firefighting foam, et cetera, et cetera. Fluoropolymers are typically are long chain compounds.
I think, what we believe is that eventually, when the regulation comes out, although right now, they are going through the consultation phase, which are interacting to the, which are, you know, they're, they're interacting through the application and the, and the manufacturers. Fluoropolymers, all said and done, are solids, and these are not soluble in water. These are long chain compounds, and they have no leachable water mobile compounds to it. We still hold with the same position, and we believe that whenever this regulation comes into place, the fluoropolymer would be carved out of this because they really do not pose any problem per se as a product.
Yeah. Thank you. And, sir, in environment filing, as per the latest filing, we have mentioned that we are going to manufacture LiFePO4, that is LFP, active cathode material, and FFKM also. Can you throw some light color on this? I mean, what is the opportunity size, and how, when we'll be able to produce this and when we can start sending it commercially?
See, fundamentally, we have said very clearly that, we would like to be in the EV battery segments. Of course, LFP happens to be one of the, one of the compound, which is cathode active material, which is used. When we apply for environmental clearance, approval, et cetera, we apply it for a longer period. We have a plan for setting up these, but, at this point of time, I think it may be premature for me to share any details. We'll definitely share with you at least both in case of what you mentioned about the specialized FKM, which is FFKM or the LFP. LFP is certainly part of our plan, and we will come to, to you. Okay.
Sure. Sir, can you please throw some light on usage? I mean, where do we use, I mean, where do industry use FFKM? Any specific application?
These are very, very specialized application going into space and semiconductor applications. These are fluorinated FKMs.
All right, sir. I have some more questions. I'll get back to you, sir.
Thank you. They are, they are very, very high-end materials, for extreme, condition applications.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order that the management ensures to address all of the questions from the participants in this conversation, please limit your questions to two per participant. Should you have follow-up questions, we request you to rejoin the queue. The next question comes from the line of Anant Jain, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity, sir, and some of my questions have been answered. One question that I have is, in the PFA, where we are already supplying semicon grade PFA, as you said, some grades of semicon grade as PFA. In some, what we have also seen is that, you know, we want to see sampling happening for other fluoropolymers. Do you think that we can have contract-based supplies, like large, dedicated contract-based supplies in these fluoropolymers? That is my first question, with large companies.
The similar question is for the battery manufacturer, battery chemicals that we are planning to do, because we also see one of your competitors today coming out with a press release saying that, you know, they are having a fixed supply kind of arrangements with some of for for some of these materials.
Thanks, Anant. Thanks for the question. We certainly see that as a possibility as market evolves. Let me tell you, semiconductor is still is coming up, going through a, you know, expecting a high growth phase. We certainly look for that both in semicon as well as in battery, where look at a long-term contract with future customers. Sure.
Are we in talks with, like, Indian players, international players? I know you can't name them, if you can give some idea about the kind of players that we are looking to partner with here.
All I can say, yes, we are, Anant.
Okay.
There are a lot of discussions going on. Our materials are being tested and at various stages of discussions and approvals. Okay, that's all I can share.
That's, that's, that's great, sir. The, the second question that I have is, you know, we have read a few reports where, you know, R32 seems to be, like, you know, in some ways a replacement for, or for a lot of gases, like R125, that is being used currently. Now, again, for us, the reference point has always been our EC filing, the environmental filing, and there we have, I think, stipulated a 10,000 ton capacity per, at TPA. So do you think that, if required, this capacity can go up?
You know, right now, if I look at R32, looking at the, the situation, the global situation of refrigerants, at this moment, we are holding on with our plan, and we may look in back again maybe a quarter later. At this point of time, we are holding on to our plan of setting up R32.
so you're, you're holding on plan. You're not going ahead with R32 plan, is what you're trying to say?
At this point of time, it's on hold, yes.
Okay, great. Thank you, sir. That's it from my side, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Archit Joshi from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, I have a couple. First, on this, the ramp-up that we are doing in the new fluoropolymers. I think what was mentioned last time on the call was that the ramp-up will be from the existing 1,100 tons per month to almost 1,800-1,900 tons per month, within which, we know that the new PVDF application for the solar panel grade will be coming in. Any color on where we are in terms of the capacity addition on that front? Any, any light that you'd want to throw on any new fluoropolymers that we are adding in the current regime of the expansion? When are we scheduled to have the entire capacity online?
Yes. Yes, Archit. We, we had said last quarter, last call, about the PVDF solar. PVDF solar, we expect to come online by quarter two of FY24. We are still holding on to that plan. Now, coming back to other capacity expansion, it's primarily, you know, one of the areas is PVDF. As the EV market unfolds and we see a growth on EV market, we'll add capacities to reach in stepwise manner. Now, in these things, you know, it comes in two parts. One is to have the base monomer plant set up, which we are all done. As the market requirement comes up, we can keep on adding reactors to add capacity.
Right, sir. Nineteen hundred, 1,800, 1,900 tons per month is what we plan to achieve by the end of the financial year. That we, that should be our guidance. We are holding on to that, right?
I cannot comment on the quantities right now, Archit. However, it's probably, as you said, that our expansion plan, some of it may spill over to next year, our current CapExs, as I did said in my opening statement.
Okay. Got it.
There may be a spillover of a quarter or so, but that's probably. Plans are in place. We have all the building blocks in place, and looking at the, at the market, turnaround and market picks up, we will add that capacity. There's no point in adding capacity if there is a, there are headwinds. Okay.
Got it. Sir, one final question on R125. I think the U.S. market was quite buoyant in the last financial year with respect to a lot of exports happening out of India to the U.S. How is the scenario there? I mean, we also might have benefited quite a lot from the tailwinds from this entire rhetoric. Currently, how do we see specifically the outlook for R125?
In this context, the first half was slow, and we expect at least R125 also to pick up in H2, going forward with the other set of refrigerants. Will primarily be catering to the next next year's requirement. That's what our position is right now.
Got it, sir. Thanks, thanks. That's very useful. Thank you.
Thanks a lot. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Rohan Gupta from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Good evening, thanks for the opportunity. Sir, first question is on our fluoropolymers. Sir, what we have understood so far that in many chemicals, it's basically Chinese dumping, which is affecting the prices and a slightly lower demand and lower acceptance from U.S., Europe, and all because of the recessionary environment there, that is leading to all this destocking in many of the chemicals. As far as the fluoropolymer is concerned, sir, what we understand that there is a huge demand still untapped from China itself, because they are catering to batteries and all, which are the new emerging factor, and the demand scenario is very robust there.
What actually is driving this negativity then in fluoropolymer when the world is still not having enough capacity, is the largest market, China is still having a strong demand from coming from EV batteries? Why a fluoropolymer is also being impacted in a current scenario, while following and chasing the same thing what we are seeing in across the chemicals?
Rohan, again, let me, let me address this into two this question in two parts. The first is, you know, fluoropolymer again has multiple grades, multiple types of fluoropolymers. We are operating in majority of fluoropolymer in a very high grade, which are not impacted that much from China. However, there's a phenomena of destocking going on, which we talked about earlier in my opening statement. Because of the business reality, high interest rates etcetera in US, there is a, there's a destocking phenomena happening. In some fluoropolymers, and I would specifically would mention PVDF, for example, that, you know, the EV sector has little bit of slowdown in China, and because of that, there has been a excess supply of PVDF.
In PVDF, in certain segments, yes, we have seen a pressure from Chinese and excess capacity and pressure on pricing. Most of the other, we do not see that. It's, the phenomena is mostly impacted in volume because of destocking, Rohan.
Okay. You are saying that destocking is even in the fluoropolymers, and even in China has already started witnessing the slowdown in EV markets, though there was a strong demand from battery chemicals, I mean, what we understand and what in earlier conference calls you have mentioned that there is a the China itself is producing, but the consumption of China is more than what they are consuming. I mean, sorry, consumption is more than what they are producing, so there is a strong still demand. Environment is very robust, but that is also now all looks like changing in a current environment with the inventory destocking taking place across, right?
I again think it's a short-term phenomena because, you know, the, the EV market, because a long value chain, there is a little bit of slowdown. It is picking up again, as we understand, and China right now is the largest EV market, it's picking up now, with relatively muted, first quarter. Relatively, again, all thing is all relative. So,
Right.
both in the EV in China this year is much less than last year, in that is the first calendar year quarter. This has some impact, because PVDF is one fluoropolymer, which is closely linked to the EV side. It has its dynamics, which gets impacted. Other than that, we do not see much of an impact. If you look at the EV, as a sector, the both, you know, in areas which is outside China, which is Europe, U.S., India, the growth is still yet to happen. The buildup is expected to happen, in the year 2025 onwards. There's a lot of capacities are the plans are in place, investments are being planned, and this will eventually reflect going forward, maybe 2025 onwards.
What we are talking about, for example, for battery chemicals to some extent, would also the similar growth I would see in PVDF as well, as because PVDF to some extent is linked to the battery. Okay.
Fine. Second question is on our CapEx plan of INR 1,500 crore for the current year. Is there any changes? Because a lot of investment was planning to go into LiPF and PVDF expansion and also. All, and you already have mentioned and indicated that probably our 32 CapEx plan right now is on hold given the current scenario. Any likelihood on the CapEx plan of INR 1,500 crore, how much we have incurred so far?
Rohan, the CapEx plan, as I said, that we will probably be, I mean, quarter one is a little bit too early to talk about it, but what we are foresee right now that plan in terms of whatever we are going to put in will happen, but it may actually spill over to next financial year as well. Some, the entire INR 1,500 may not happen this year, okay? Largely, we had also indicated earlier that a large part of our CapEx is going to be in battery chemical and the future growth. As we see our battery chemicals grade approval and the market going up, the CapEx will be linked to that segmental growth.
Mr. Gupta, may we request that you return to the question queue for follow-up questions, as there are participants waiting for their turn. The next question is from the line of Dhruv Muchhal. Sorry, the next question from the line is Pratik Jain from Solidarity Investment Managers. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Am I audible?
Yes, I can hear you, Pratik. Please, go ahead.
Yeah, hi. I have one question. On this electrical vehicle battery, electric vehicle battery segment, can you just help me understand the economics of this business? Like, what are your internal calculations, what can be the ROCE?
Pratik, it would be very premature for me to share the economics about this, but we already talked about that we have a plan to get into various battery chemicals and even going into electrolytes.
Our plan is to make electrolyte as a product. M aybe look at, making the, all the chemicals and components which goes into electrolytes. That's all I can say. This is a very early stage of development.
If you look at, for example, Indian battery industries, it is still little bit away from setting up capacities. I would rather wait for some time, and then. Again, it's premature for me to talk about the ROCE, et cetera, or any other financial parameters related to battery chemical segment.
Got it. Got it. No issue. Thanks a lot.
Thank you, Pratik. Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Dhruv Muchhal from HDFC Mutual Funds. Please go ahead.
Yeah, sir, thank you so much. First question is on, if you can give us some sense on what would be the effective capacity that we would have in our polymers business, by the end of the year, from the start of the year? Because with your, you know, your, segmental changes, now we have very limited information in terms of how to forecast or see the business. Any color on that will be very helpful, sir.
Dhruv, actually, we have already indicated the, our capacity plan earlier, but right now, as you have said, that the question is that, that how and when this capacity get fully utilized. We had indicated quarter four, which probably maybe spill over by one more quarter. That's all I can say. The plan is in place to, to put the capacity completely. We have already added capacity. Right now, our volumes are not constrained by the capacity. It's, it's more by the approval and the market demand and the market requirements.
We have the capacities in place, just as we get the approvals, probably like I believe you are saying it for PVDF and PFA, that we have expanded, it seems, if I remember right. As you get the approvals, probably the ramp-up can happen there. Sir, we also had expansions in PTFE, if I'm not wrong.
In PTFE, we had said that it's more of a debottlenecking, not adding.
Yeah.
It's. That's already, again, that's, lot of it is market dependent. At this point of time, we have, whatever the plan, we have planned in a phase-wise manner, because we already have the TFE in place.
Yeah.
This is inside in terms of reactor debottlenecking, et cetera. That's already in place. We have done it, and as the market turnaround happens, we are very well positioned to capture that. Okay.
Okay. Sure, sir. The other thing was, on the. You mentioned about some weakness in demand in the polymer, probably it's a bit temporary, but also some pressure from Chinese, at least in some particular grades. Volumes are a thing, but are we seeing some pricing pressure, too? Some of your peers, like Chemours and others, have not highlighted too much on pricing. I'm just wondering, are you seeing also some pricing pressure? It's currently only volumes which are causing it, and you expect that to improve?
We are not seeing, pricing pressure.
On the polymer side. Yeah, yeah.
Not on the higher end grades and the grade which has been uni qualified, because there's a sense of stickiness, et cetera, and then these are high-end grades. I would agree with that statement, and we have not seen significant. Of course, the volume, because of destocking, as I stated earlier, is getting impacted. I hope that whole thing to get sorted out probably by the second half of this financial year.
Sir, in terms of mix, how much, just to get some sense, you know, how much would be the higher end grades for us? Probably, I'm not sure in terms of volumes or in terms of value of the overall polymer business, say, last year or some ballpark range in terms of where are we? How much of this business is, you know, just trying to understand the mix.
Hello?
Yes.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, now, yeah.
You know, most of our new fluoropolymer, et cetera, is, is in, I would say, in the higher end grade. If I look at the entire PTFE spectrum, some of the grades which are, probably in the granular segment at a very low level, maybe 10% might be, in that area, which could possibly get, impacted. Other than that, most of our grades are in, in, in higher end grades.
Okay. What we are currently seeing on this is primarily a volume thing, because given a higher end exposure. Got it, sir. Sir, last question I'll just put in is, on the PFA side, there was some discussion earlier. You mentioned there are multiple grades. Now, in PTFE, we understand you are almost, you know, similar to any of your Western peers in terms of the product mix that you have or the grades that you cover. If you can give some similar sense on PFAs or probably how many grades are there, how many we have already cracked, how many are in process of approvals, and how much can you, you know, probably crack in the next, say, two years or three years? Are you targeting to, you know, convert in two to three years?
In PSA, again, there are multiple applications. When I talked about the grade, et cetera, high-end and super high-end grades, that was primarily for the semicon applications, where the, the requirement of impurity profile, et cetera, is highly stringent because of the application. Other than that, in PFA, which another grade we are, I, I don't see such segmentations. Okay. There are, mostly in other application, I don't see such a big difference per se. Most of it, PFA, anyway, is a, is a polymer, fluoropolymer, which is a high-end fluoropolymer, with the advanced applications. That grade that I talked about, in PFA was more focused towards the semiconductor applications.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Krunal Shah from ENAM Investments. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hello, sir. Thank you for taking my question. Sir, one question I had on PFAS free PTFE. Just wanted to understand, you know, where we are in the, you know, stage of developing PFAS free PTFE.
See, in, if you look at the PTFE per se, as I said earlier, that fluoropolymer per se are the long chain compound. These are solid, not soluble in water, so they anyway, have a very, very low level of PFAS. Okay. However, there is a poor surfactant, which is used in the manufacturing of PFAS. We have been working towards using non-fluorinated surfactant. As far as PTFE is concerned, we have developed grade in with non-fluorinated surfactant, grades in most of the PTFE segments or PTFE grades. We are in the advanced stages of getting it approval and taking it to the market.
Okay. actually, I was coming to the lines of, you know, most of the peers, and no one talks about PFAS free PTFE. why, why any reason why they are not working on that, or why there's no discussion as such?
I'm sorry, could you come up again? I missed the. It was not clear.
Yeah. Actually, if you see your peers' commentary, most of them talk about PVDF and FKM are being PFAS free, but nothing on the lines of PTFE being PFAS free they're developing. Any reason why they're not working on this?
See, again, I would not like to comment others. Again, if we, if we talk about FKM, FKM anyway is, is we don't use any surfactant there, so it's PFAS free. Same is in PVDF. PTFE, I think, I'm not sure which competition you are referring to. However, it's a, it's, it's an issue with one of the leading manufacturers who have been using and be the, be the main proponent for the fluorinated surfactant. At this point of time, at this point of time, you know, we would not like to comment on it, but our effort to move towards non-fluorinated surfactant much before this PFAS issue came, what we hear in last six months or so.
We have been working on it for last, probably five years.
Okay, fine. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Rohit Nagraj from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. My first question is, the gestation period between the product approval and the commercial orders. We have sent a lot of samples across fluoropolymers. If we get the approvals during the next few quarters, do we expect substantial commercial orders coming from, say, FY25? Or what is the general timeline between the approval process and the commercial order start? Thank you.
Rohit, typically, the first to answer your question by FY25, certainly. We look for a lot of approval to be in place by FY25. In terms of timelines, depending upon the grade, it can take anywhere from six months to one year. There is another process, Rohit, that once, material get approved, the customer doesn't start taking the entire capacity, from us, and the capacity ramp up further takes time. Okay, so it's probably, conservatively, I can say one to one and a half years, time frame. So let's say three to four months, five months from approval, or six months, depending upon the grades, and then, the small capacity starts.
By that time, the, the, the, the significant part of customer requirements come into place, it based on our past experience, it takes a long time. Okay.
Sure. Right. Right. Got it, sir. The second question is on the wind power project. Does this 25 MW power project is commercialized? Have we started receiving the benefits of it? On a yearly basis, what would be the saving because of the wind power project? Thank you.
Yeah. I'll request, my colleague, Manoj, to, to take up that question. Manoj, please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, Rohit. As we have indicated in the last call, that foreign trade policy has been amended, now they have included the wind power locations in the EOU units as well. In the last quarter, we have applied for the we have identified eight wind pockets in and around our Jhajjar plant. Out of that, we have initially applied for the three location, for which we have received the approvals, five location application is in the pipeline, which we expect to get in this quarter. As soon as we get all the approval for our eight location, we'll start commissioning the windmills.
What is the timeline that we are looking and the savings, in terms of power cost?
Yeah. After in the Q2, by Q2, we should get all the approvals. Within six months, we should put up all the windmills. The benefit in the terms of cost reduction will come in the next financial year.
Any quantum, sir?
It's around INR 20-INR 25 crore.
Sure.
At most. That depends on the peak power tariff and that, other power, conventional power cost as present.
Right. This is helpful, sir. Thank you so much, and best of luck, sir.
Thanks, Rohit.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Ishm ohit from Sonic Intelligent Research LLP. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity, sir. Just I have a small question. Just in terms of full year margin, do we expect to go back above 30% EBITDA margin?
Yeah, I think we had indicated earlier that we'd probably be in 30s or maybe 28%-30%, 32%, 33%, that range. We expect our margins to remain in that range.
Okay. Thanks. Thank you for answering that. All the best.
Thanks.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Yash Shah from Investec. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you, sir, for the opportunity. Sir, it was more of a clarification question. Can you shed some color on if different non-fluorinated surfactants will be required for different fluoropolymers? Is the understanding correct?
Yash, can you come up again? It's not clear. What did you say? Non-fluorinated surfactant?
Sir, as you mentioned, that you'll be using, non-fluorinated surfactant for the fluoropolymers, right?
Yes.
What I wanted to understand is, if different non-fluorinated surfactants will be used for different fluoropolymers, it won't be standard for all the fluoropolymers, is what I'm trying to understand?
That's correct. That's correct. Yes, Yash, because it'll be a, there are different types of surfactant which is used for different application, different grade, different fluoropolymers. It's not one unique molecule.
Right. sir, as per our guidance, that will be completely PFAS-free across all our fluoropolymers by the end of FY24. Is it fair to conclude that we have found a non-fluorinated surfactant for all the fluoropolymers?
We expect to, you know, get most of our products moved into NFS probably by the end of this financial year. Again, from our side, we probably will be ready with most of the grades and the products, and then slowly we have to see how the transition happen. Our effort is to make it happen as soon as possible, and perhaps by end of this financial year.
Okay. Got it. Got it, sir. Sir, one more thing, which was mentioned in our annual reports, that, energy surfactants as GX 902 and 905, the prices of it had remained extremely volatile in the previous year. Now, moving to the non-fluorinated surfactants, will we still continue to use these? Can you, can you, help explain this, sir?
No, these, these, will not be used, and, these will be replaced by a surfactant which, which do not have fluorine.
Okay.
They, they, they will be completely eliminated to some extent.
Got it. Got it, sir. Thank you for answering all my questions. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you. Due to time constraints, this was the last question. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thanks a lot, Nitin, and thanks to everyone. We are really thankful to all of you to have an interest in GFL as a company, and looking at our growth story as it unfolds. With this, I would like to thank you all and look forward to connecting again by the end of next quarter. Thank you so much.