Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q3 FY25 earnings conference call of Gateway Distriparks Limited and Snowman Logistics Limited. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on belief, opinion, and expectation of the company as of the date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. Today on the call we have Mr. Prem Kishan Dass Gupta, Chairman and Managing Director, Mr. Ishan Gupta, Joint Managing Director, Mr. Samvit Gupta, Joint Managing Director, Mr. Karthik Sundaram Iyer, CFO, GDL, Mr. Rajguru Behgal, President, Rail, GDL, Mr. Manoj Singh, President, CFS, GDL, Mr.
Padamdeep Singh Handa, CEO and Director, Snowman. Mr. N. Balakrishna, CFO, Snowman. We will now directly begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handset while asking a question. Participants should avoid Bluetooth earphones or speakerphone. Ladies and gentlemen, please limit your questions to three per participant. First question is from the line of Kasturi Bubna from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thank you for taking my question. Can you hear me?
Yes, please go ahead.
Excellent. Yeah. So the company has been talking about the benefit from DFC for many years now, but obviously the financial benefit is yet to be seen for the company from the DFC. So has the Western DFC become operational in parts, and is the Western DFC already contributing to the financials of Gateway Distriparks? When will the Western DFC become fully operational, and what type of TEUs can the company expect in the next two years due to the DFC opportunity?
The DFC started in a different section starting from 2020. We have seen the benefits of it over the years with faster turnaround times, increased double stacking, lesser imbalance. We have consistently improved our data procedure and running through the DFC coming in. It's there till Mundra to Bhestan for us, but JNPT, the final version, only comes by possibly end of this year. December 2025 is what Gateway is saying, but it could probably take another few months after that also.
So, could you speak a little bit about when the full Western line is operational, exactly how Gateway Distriparks how this will over time, over time how this will improve our volumes in the container railway business?
We have a Pan India license, so GNPT getting connected will help us significantly compared to all the other players. There are others with Pan India license also. GNPT getting double stacked will allow us to convert some cargo that's currently going by road to rail and at better margins compared to right now from single stack to double stack when we do that. Those are primarily the benefits to the DFC. Even faster turnaround time. Right now, to GNPT, it will take 72 hours, but post-DFC, it should take about 30 hours. That will also help us.
Understood. And just one last question, if you may. So how did our capacity in the rail division increase for Gateway Distriparks? Who was the merger with Gateway Rail Freight Private Limited and the other company, the East India Company? Did it increase our capacities in the rail division for the listed entity, which was compared to what it was pre-merger?
So pre-merger, it was basically the CFS business was separate and the rail business was separate. So if it became one entity, it gave us stronger balance sheet and common management. But in terms of specifically increasing rail capacity, the merger did not have any impact.
Okay. Great. Thank you so much. Thanks.
Thank you. Before we move to the next question, a reminder to the participants to ask a question. You may press star and one. Next question is from the line of Prashant Kale from Star Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Congratulations on your good results. I have one question. The Eastern Dedicated Freight Corridor has been commissioned already, but we don't have any operations on that freight corridor. Is there any reason why we are not interested in that corridor? And another question is, do we have any plan to establish any facility on that corridor?
So no immediate plan right now for the EDFC. One big advantage of the WDFC is that it's double stacked, and more of the locations that we service, all the cargo comes to the western port. But that being said, over time, when we keep on expanding and looking at new locations, we're not against expanding on that side. So you might see one or two terminals come within that region as well. But we are more focused on the EXIM trade rather than domestic, and eastern is used a lot more for domestic and bulk as well.
Okay. So the Eastern Dedicated Freight Corridor don't have much opportunities for exit, right?
It does for some locations, but not for ones that we operate out of.
Okay. And sir, the Snowman acquisition and making it a subsidiary has resulted into extra exceptional item, which has impacted our EPS. But it's a subsidiary. How did we account it as an income on the income statement as an exceptional item? Because that has skewed the consolidated result too much. But in practice, there is no income.
Yeah. So this was basically, we were an associate company, and now after crossing 50%, it comes under subsidiary. So we're just following the accounting standard guidelines that are there. So it's a notional gain. It's not a cash item. It's not a taxable item. But according to accounting standards, there is a gain of INR 390 crores based on the fair value of the equity that's come in. But we've given a separate line item to it specifying the amount. So if you remove that, then you can see what our operational EBITDA and operational profit is.
But we don't have to pay any tax on that income, right?
No, no. It's just like a balance sheet item, like a one-line entry.
It's appearing in the balance sheet, and to balance it, we need to cover it as an income to balance the asset side.
Yeah. We're just following the accounting standard guidelines.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Understood now. Because you didn't publish the balance sheet. That's why I had a question that where is this adjustment coming from? So it's just for adjusting on the balance sheet. Okay. Thank you very much, sir.
Yes. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Aniruddha A. Damani from Artha India Ventures. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, so I had a question about how are you planning to address the challenges that led to this net loss in the Snowman Logistics results compared to a profit in the same quarter last year? There's also been a sequential degrowth in revenues.
So we are working closely towards creating that bottom line, working towards cutting down on our costs rapidly. And a lot of work has been done in the last couple of months in the same aspect. Also, as this is the time when the contracts are under renewal, we are trying to correct the revenues also so that our subsequent quarters look much better.
I had a follow-on question to that. You also mentioned that the Amazon contract has moved from dedicated warehousing. Is it a complete termination of the contract, or what has changed with the Amazon relationship?
Yeah. Hi, I'm Ishan here. How are you doing?
I'm good. How are you, Ishan?
Oh, good. So with Amazon, after QuickCommerce came in, then this was the arm of Amazon, which is Amazon Fresh and the Amazon Pantry business. So they have changed their model to compete with QuickCommerce, and they are going directly from the suppliers to the dark stores. So they don't require these dedicated fulfillment centers anymore. But we also saw that this might not be a long-term thing, so it was a back-to-back lease when we started. And we ended our leases, and we recuperated any CapEx that we had done as part of the deal with Amazon. So now, on the growth path, we are focusing on Snow Distribute. Apart from the three customers which we had publicly announced, we do have a couple more now, but unfortunately, we can't reveal their names due to confidentiality clauses.
But it's getting this action, and there are a couple of large clients who we are working with to grow Snow Distribute. And as Pavel mentioned, the focus is always on the bottom line. And we have had some costs in this quarter. That's why I'm appreciative compared to last year's same quarter. And those increases in labor and increases in electricity, which we don't foresee that every quarter such a large impact would be there.
I see. I'm happy to ask another question if there's anybody else in line after them.
Sure. Thank you. Thank you.
Next question is from the line of Ajay Lohani from Nuvama Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good afternoon, sir. Thank you so much for the opportunity, so first question, if you could highlight in terms of the market share movement for our market.
Yeah. Hi, Rajguru, Gateway Distriparks. So I will start with daily NCR market share. So we have been able to maintain our market share to 17% compared to last quarter. Also, we were 70. But at CONCOR, we have been able to ramp up our market share from 24%, which was last quarter, to 26.5%, closer to 27%. And in Uttarakhand, there has been a sharp increase in market share. So from 23% last quarter, now it is 30%.
When you say last quarter, you mean 2Q FY25 or 3Q FY24, sir?
Q2 2024, 2025.
Okay. So it's a quarter over quarter. There is an improvement.
Yes.
Understood. And if you could guide us in terms of the market share in 3Q 24, same quarter last year.
Yeah, so in Q3 last year, the market share daily NPR was 16%, and at Ludhiana, it was 21%, and in Uttarakhand, it was 27%.
Essentially, we have improved market share on YoY as well as QoQ basis.
Yes. Correct.
What has driven this? Because if you could also help us with the EBITDA margins as well for the CFS and rail.
Yes. So rail is 9,600, and CFS is about just below 1,300. So there has been some different discounts, but at the same time, some increase in discounts. But at the same time, our double stacking has improved. So it's kind of offset each other. That's why our EBITDA is consistent with H1. And also, there's been a shift with throughput. We've done better MTs also. So it might not show in the overall volume growth. It's only about 2%. But our laden percentage has gone up more than our laden plus MP percentage.
Would you be able to share what is the cargo growth in laden containers?
We don't get the exact split on that, but I mean, there is a few double digits.
Is it in double digit?
Double digit compared to?
Why? The growth is in double digit for the laden cargo. So is it the MPs mix, which is changing the realization and the margin profile? That's the question I had.
Yeah. No, not in double digits. It's just single digits.
Okay. Understood. If you could also highlight how much of the JNPT cargo currently is moved by road, what volume it would be annually?
It's hard for us to say because we're not there with all the markets where JNPT caters to. But for us, our overall volume is only about 5% from JNPT.
Right. No, but I mean, given these three markets put together, how much volume you think is going by road to JNPT?
For the ICD scale of the locations that we have, especially in the north, we'd say about 70%-80% is on rail. Balance is on road, but it's improving by a few percentage every year.
Okay, and can you help us understand in terms of the market scenario, what is the outlook in terms of the market? And by the way, if you could also talk about these three markets, what has been the volume growth in these markets at the aggregate level?
Yeah. I'll just take a thought on the large growth in WDFC. Broadly, I mean, we want this consistent trend to go. We've got the INR 100 crore EBITDA also again. So we're happy with that considering the global scenarios. But there could be some changes, especially in the Red Sea situation. If shipping lines start using this route again, then we could see a boost in volume compared to what we factored in. So we're still not giving up the number for what we expect next quarter or the following year. We'll probably wait another quarter and then see and give our guidance for future. And then that will just tell you about the specific market growth we do. So, yeah. So if we talk about NCR, so there has been a growth of around 6%-7%.
But if you talk about other markets like Uttarakhand, Kashipur, there is a slight degrowth overall because of waste paper volumes. At Carnival, we have been able to retain our market share, and over the period of time, we increased. So what we can look at is because of the geopolitical scenario, like Samvit mentioned, so there was a shortage of empty container inventory also. It's also led to a lower movement of empty containers. Going forward, we are just waiting and watching how the situation will pan out. But we can see that from January numbers are slightly better than if we look at November, December numbers. But it is very soon to give you complete clarity that how the things will pan out. Just to clarify the numbers, Rajguru gave were our terminal-wise increase. But if you look at overall market, NCR Q3 versus Q3 is 2% growth.
Ludhiana is down 20%, and Uttarakhand is down 30%.
Ludhiana is down 20%, YY, and Uttarakhand 30%. Have I understood right?
Yeah. 32%. The overall market has gone down, but still, for us, I think we've managed to increase our market share in that falling market also.
Right. Just a quick question on this. If we look at the port volume year to date, nine months, they are up about 9%, 10%, YY. But if we just sum up the leading terminals, we see that there is hardly any change. Can you explain? Is there a reversal of the market share for rail? Is it there is an element of calculation changes? Is the transshipment gone up a lot, and which is influencing the port numbers, etc.?
Yes. So transshipment and MPs get counted there along with postal shipping also. So it's not really a comparable thing. So we only look at where our ICD are present and what the market there is. We're also not servicing a good chunk of the country by rail.
Understood. I have more questions, but I'll come back in. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Amit Dixit from ICICI Securities. Please proceed.
Yeah. Hi. Good evening, everyone. And thanks for the opportunity. A couple of questions from my side. The first one is on the growth plans that we have, particularly with respect to new ICDs. Now, as I understand, Jaipur is still not crystallized. So over the next, at least, say, two years, what are the kind of options we are considering at this point in time?
We're actively looking at two, three options. So hopefully, we can announce something by next quarter. Jaipur is still going to take time, as we've reported in the past. We'll wait for the land issue to clear up. But there's definitely plans to expand on the rail-linked ICD side with two or three coming in the next couple of years.
Is it possible to just highlight the regions, or you will do it at a later date as and when things come?
No, we'd only announce that after we've bought our land.
And what exactly is ailing Jaipur? I mean, has it moved ahead compared to last time, or the situation is just stuck there?
We've reported in our accounts. It's a legal process. There's a date of hearing that keeps happening. So nothing significant to report in the progress.
Okay. The second one is on double stacking. Is it possible to quantify the double stacking in this quarter, and how does it compare with the last quarter?
It's 40% versus 38% last quarter.
Okay. That's great. Thank you so much, and all the best.
Thanks.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Prabhashankar N J from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good evening, and thank you for the opportunity. A couple of questions. So first, upon specific end markets, you did say that NCR has grown at about 2%, while the other two markets are quite weak. But on the other hand, you're seeing that exports as a whole is picking up in the fourth quarter as well. So can you throw some light around what are the key areas which are working out, and what are the key commodities where there has been a substantial weakness?
Yeah. So like I said, the NCR market growth was 2%, wherein our terminals and NCR grew by 6%-7%. So here, we have seen still stability. But there's a degrowth that has happened in Ludhiana and Uttarakhand. It's primarily due to two factors. Ludhiana, the complete market is heavily dependent on scrap. So that is one of the major reasons that the overall market went down because of the low volumes of scrap, and the volumes have not gone up as of now. And the other market, which is Uttarakhand, it is heavily dependent on waste paper. So there also, the overall market is down because of the low volumes of waste paper. So these two commodities led to degrowth in the overall market in both Ludhiana and Uttarakhand.
Okay. Got it. In the NCR market specifically, just wanted to get a sense. You have seen some growth, the rice exports picking up again. And any trends you have seen visible in the month of January, which you can highlight in the call, please?
It's a similar trend going on December to January. So nothing significant to report as such.
Okay. Understood. Understood. On the CFS business, again, just trying to figure out, we are still in the process of executing the sale of the CFS businesses. Understanding is correct. Any update over there?
Yeah. We're evaluating our options just to, like we had said in the last call, that we'll probably take if we won't have any news to give in this financial year. So possibly, after the close of financial year and next investor call, we can give some better update on it.
Got it. All right. Thank you. That's it from my side.
Thanks.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Vishal Darji from RoboCapital. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. My question is on the Snowman Logistics part. On the EBITDA margin front, our margins are best as compared to last year. So they are around 16% currently. So going forward, what type of margins are we expecting? Do I accept that we are moving to an asset-like model, and the increased share of distribution business might affect the margins? So what type of trend are we expecting?
See, as our overall business dynamics and the mix has changed in the last few quarters, the EBITDA margins, though, will remain close to what we were around 18%-20% is what we expected to stay. But overall, absolute number, EBITDA is going to grow with our expansion in Snow Distribute.
Okay. So sustainably, we can take it as 18%-20%, right?
Yes. Yeah. The reason for that is we are increasing our distribution business, which is low margin but high revenue, and the absolute EBITDA will grow. And it supports our warehousing and transportation business by increasing stickiness, and those same customers end up using our warehouses and transportation. We don't do distribution business, which doesn't touch our warehouses or our transportation.
Okay. Got it. And as you're expanding your pallet capacity, what kind of revenue growth are you expecting? Any guidance you would like to give?
We are targeting, say, by end of FY 26, anywhere between INR 800 to INR 900 crores of revenue.
Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you.
Okay. Sure. Sure. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Gaurav Gandhi from Glorytail Capital Management. Please go ahead.
Yes. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, what are the updates on the Red Sea issue? Has it resolved, or any update regarding that? Any signs of traffic shifting back there?
No. As of now, the Red Sea issue remains the same because even though there's a ceasefire announced, but it will take time before everything settles down. All the shipping lines are still using the route, which is through the Cape of Good Hope rather than the Suez Canal. At the same time, freight rates have gone up significantly, both because of Red Sea and generally the container flows and freight routes which are being used by the shipping lines right now, and the capacity is well utilized. So it's remained the same. The transit times remain the same, and for our end customers, the freight rates are going up even now.
Sir, as and when it will resolve, how much volume growth you're expecting?
There's no direct relationship which we can identify between when the situation gets resolved and linking it directly to volume. It will be very difficult to say, but generally speaking, whenever the freight rates slow down, our container availability goes up, then we expect the export out of India to become more competitive.
All right. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Aniket Kulkarni from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for taking my question. So I wanted to ask, why are we more exim-focused versus domestic-focused in the rail business, and how will the completion of the DFC on the western side help us if we are more exim-focused? Given that you said the eastern DFC catered more on the domestic side. So what are your thoughts on that?
We tried domestic in the past, but for domestic, you need a more wider network of terminals. We only have five rail-linked terminals. Domestic most routes are single-stack, and there's imbalance as well, and it's slower turnaround time, so we've chosen to focus on EXIM as a strategy. At least for the last 10 years, it's been pretty much 95% plus on EXIM side. We're not against running mixed trains. Once we have a more wider network, say if we have 10 locations, it's easier to triangulate trains and have a better domestic presence, so for that, we need to, like we said, we have plans for three more terminals and even more after that, so we'll wait for that, and eventually, the plan is to get into domestic as well.
Yeah. And on the western DFC completion, so how will it help us more in the EXIM operations as compared to the domestic ones? Because you said earlier that the eastern DFC was more domestic-focused, right? So what is the difference between the eastern and the western DFC, and how will it help us more on the EXIM side?
The Western DFC connects to Mundra-Pipavav JNPT, which is where we carry all our cargo. Kandla also, we've recently announced that service. Eastern DFC, we're not connecting to any ports. So if we have to use that, that might be on the domestic side, but we don't have any specific plans for it right now. The Western DFC, basically, all the imports and exports going to these three, four ports will help us increase our volume.
Got it. Got it. Thank you so much.
Bye.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Janam Shah from Equirus Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Also, my first question is related to the acquisition of Snowman. So of course, it is within our strategy, but are we going to have any more increase in the stake in the company, or we are okay with this 50% stake? Any more cash flow to be deployed in Snowman from Gateway?
Our plan was to do 50%, and we could acquire 5% under creeping acquisition this year, which we've pretty much exhausted. No immediate plans to increase our stake further, but we'll have a look whenever we have free cash flows. We have to decide our overall strategy. This was the first target.
Got it. Got it, sir, and on the disclosures only, so as we are following the company since last two, three years, and we have been hearing that we'll be adding up new ICD in the next northern or central region, which will cater to the DFC, but no significant movement has been on that part, and no significant investment has been done, and even Jaipur is kind of halted as of now, and if we see from a cash flow perspective, we are not doing any major CapEx in terms of investment in ICD, and if you see the existing market, Ludhiana, all of that, and it is degrowing, and of course, DFC has been operational for a major majority of our cargo, which is like 95% towards Subicom and this Mundra.
Then what kind of thing is stopping us to go aggressive in terms of addition of any terminal in any of the region to have better volumes going forward or to eventually use the capital better?
Ever since we have announced it, we have evaluated dozens of opportunities, some of them downfield, but mostly greenfield. The challenge that we are facing is that we are not able to do land acquisition in the correct shape and in the correct location, which meets all our criteria as we wanted. We would rather wait and do the terminal in a good location, such as our Gurgaon facility. For that, it's taking time. Even as we speak right now, there are three or four proposals where we are at the finalization stage. If we find any problems in the land, it's a big challenge in India, then we drop that proposal. If the due diligence and everything goes well, then we'll be going ahead.
Got it, sir. To follow up on this, are we of course, as I said, in Gati Shakti, master plan has been there. So any of your terminal which has come into it, and if it is coming, are we participating in that?
Sorry, what was that? Are you asking if any terminal is coming up for acquisition?
No. So, I'm asking that there has been a Gati Shakti master plan that would be a few terminals which would be budgeted by, let's say, Government of India or something. So, are we planning to be part of that because they are wanting to have a private participation increase in this particular segment of ICD and railways?
Right. Whenever we propose a plan, we will definitely take a look. But it doesn't fit with our business model usually because all of them are built on government land. And after a certain number of years, usually in this model, the facility you have to hand over back to the public sector. And also, it's a common facility if you build on whether it's Gati Shakti or it's DFC land. And in our business model, we believe that we want to run our trains exclusively to our terminals. And we are not in it only for the terminal business. We want to do the railways as well. We don't want to do a terminal where others are running on the railway.
Got it. Got it. And just one last thing. By any chance, are we seeing that the competitive intensity, which might be increasing, which might be leading to lower return ratios from the newer terminals as against what we would have anticipated, and which is eventually leading to a delay in the acquisition of the terminal? Or is it just those land issues and all, or any other thing that you mention?
Sorry, the voice is very corporate voice. If you need to, you can ask that last question.
Say it, pardon.
Mr. Shah, may we please request you to use your handset if you are on speaker?
Yeah. I'm using handset only. Just giving you. So I'm seeing that by any chance, if any of the, let's say, there will be some already kind of ICD in a particular region, and we will be acquiring some land nearby. And then eventually, because of the competitive intensity, our financials might not be working in terms of the return ratios. Eventually, because of that, are we foregoing any of the opportunity to add any terminal, or it is just the land aggregation or any land acquisition problem that we are facing for the newer terminals?
No, it is primarily the land aggregation. We have enough funds available both in our treasury and in the ability to raise. But that has not been the bottleneck. The land aggregation has been the bottleneck for us.
Got it. So thank you so much, and thank you so much for all the answers.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Aniruddha A. Damani from Artha India Ventures. Please go ahead.
Thank you so much. So I had a couple of questions about the capital outlay. So it looks like Kolkata, we're going to start with 5,900 odd pallets in this quarter. The total outlay for this project was for 9,000 pallets. Any indication on when that will be completed? And also, what is the total size of capacity of building at Krishnapatnam?
So in Kolkata, we are completing the first phase of the warehousing. After that, we have another year, year and a half, when we will reinvest into phase two in Kolkata. And that will cover up the entire outlay as we have projected. The land and everything else is already there. It is just that we are creating phase one, and then we'll go to phase two. In terms of Krishnapatnam, we are adding additional I mean, additionally, we are adding 5,500 pallets, which will be also getting up and ready by this year, financial year.
Just to clarify, the total capacity at Krishnapatnam will be about 11,200 pallets, and Kolkata would be 9,000?
Yes, approximately. And Kolkata will be 9,000 plus. We already have another warehouse, which will add up and create a total of 15,000.
Oh, 15,000. And then Kolkata, is that under the model where we acquire the land and we own everything, or is this the BTS model that we're doing?
It is. We have acquired the land, and we own everything there. It's in Krishnapatnam also.
Just one last question. How are we financing this total capital investment of around INR 1,150 crores over the next 12 months?
It's primarily debt-funded, but also some equity portion of about 30%-35%.
Sorry, you said equity. Would it be raising equity?
No, no. Like internal approvals.
Internal approvals. Okay. Got it. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Kandiniya Nirmaggara from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. So my first question is, how has JN been? I mean, this quarter, how is the trend like with respect to your volume growth or the momentum on ground, either on the ICD side or on the port side? If you can throw some color on that, please, if you are seeing any pickup.
Very similar trend going on. More of the same as you see.
Okay. Do you think the volumes may have bottomed out at this current level? Do you think this is a trough, or do you still see a potential decline from here as well?
It's hard to say on the overall macro volumes, but we have a healthy pipeline in place for our terminals where we see our market share going up going forward.
Understood. Sir, and my second question is on the margin front. So how do you see that trend from here on? Because I think on a QOQ basis, in your oil business, there is a marginal decline on per TEU basis. So I mean, what has driven this decline? If you can throw some color, please.
It's more or less the same. If you look at the H1, we were 9,600. We're still at 9,600. So every quarter can't be the same. It depends on the volume mix, a little bit up and down, number of 20s, 40s, overall empty running, under-same running. So there are many factors, but we've always given this guidance that we'll be roughly in this range. And we expect that to continue going forward as well.
Understood, sir. Sir, my last question is on the CFS divestment part. Any color, any thought to us? I mean, where are we on that?
As you mentioned earlier on the call also, we'll probably be able to give a better update maybe next quarter. So like three, four months down, maybe we can report something.
Sure, sir. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Riya Mehta from Equitree Capital. Please go ahead.
Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. My first question is in regards to that you said that the markets of Ludhiana and Uttarakhand have been seeing a decline, mainly for scrap and waste paper. So apart from these commodities, what other market survival do we see for these markets to grow?
So basically, if you look at both these markets, so I'll just give you a percentage. Like 20% of the scrap volumes are there in the market of Ludhiana. So no matter other commodities, whatever percentage they do well, but they won't be able to match up unless and until there is an improvement in scrap volumes. And similarly, there's a huge percentage if you look at the waste paper market in Uttarakhand. So they don't have those kind of voluminous commodities aren't there, which can substitute those volumes. So we have to wait for their growth to happen till the volumes are stabilized. And again, there is a market growth.
Got it. And what would be the possible reason for NCR growing just at 2%?
If we look at NCR, it could have been growing further, but because of the empty inventory shortage, because of the Suez crisis, there has been erratic arrivals at the port side. Overall, the shipping lines have to supply empty to other locations also. And they were not able to supply to that extent for the hinterland. So that has also let down not only the movement of empty, but also the export laden boxes. NCR also has scrap and trading goods, which overall right now is very suppressed.
This is scrap steel, right?
Yes.
Got it. And when you say that FY27, we are seeing growth of around INR 800-900 crores, where do we see this growth coming from?
So this is a question of Snowman that is not from Gateway. That's the revenue that we foresee Snowman reaching by the end of FY27.
Yeah. For that one, I'm asking.
That's mainly from Snow Distribute, which is our pipeline business, and taking into account the couple of facilities at least that we'll be adding every year, it's not small.
Got it. And where do you see growth coming for Gateway Distriparks, considering these markets continue to have a sluggish outlook for a couple of quarters at least?
We're consistently growing our market share. So Rewari becoming double-stacked will give us a boost in that region. We've already seen some improvement in volumes there. And we'll continue to geographically expand also into new locations, which will add further into this.
When we see our double-stacking has increased by 2% from 38% to 40%, our margins have not seen that kind of improvement. So could you quantify how much a percentage of double-stacking increase would lead to how much savings in cost?
It's kind of hard to do that because, again, double-stacking depends on the weight, the route, the imbalance. So it's not a clear-cut formula that for every % of double-stacking, we get this much gross saving. Also, we don't share exact double-stacking saving in the P&L terms publicly.
Right. But directionally, if we have increased the double-stacking, our margin should have improved. So what possible reason that it has not improved directionally?
Just as I just mentioned, the port split, the volume split, weight slab split, so those factors make a difference. Also, some discounting has increased in certain markets, which we were mentioning, but overall, our plan is just to keep the entire volume growing, our market share growing, which will help distribute our fixed costs over a larger base of volume, and then the asset as fast as we can.
Got it. And you were talking about various cost initiatives and Gateway. So what all cost initiative are we planning to take?
So I think, again, that was a Snowman commentary that was given. Pardon, you can elaborate on it. That was on Snowman wherein we are trying to work out on warehouse level, unit level, labor cost, and overall efficiencies of chambers. Those are what we have taken internally.
Got it. And for Gateway, are we seeing any improvement of going back to 10,000 level if I put up a term for rail?
Yeah. Hopefully, when GLPD is connected to DFC, then we should be seeing 10,000 plus. Also, we would always say three factors. One is Rewari being double-stacked. One is Jaipur coming in. One is GLPD being double-stacked. So one out of those three is done. Jaipur has been delayed. Maybe when one more terminal comes in, that will help us push in this direction.
So how much is Jaipur delayed by?
We don't know when it will come in. We're basically waiting for the legal proceedings to get over.
This has started since how long?
This is about a little over a year now.
Literally. So once you get the regulatory approval, you will be able to get it, right?
Yes.
And this is stock with which board?
It's Delhi Adjudicating Authority.
Delhi Adjudicating Authority. Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Vikram Suryavanshi from PhillipCapital India Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good evening, sir. Sorry in case the question is repeated because there was some disturbance in my line. What was the imbalance share in this quarter?
55, 45 in payroll and posts.
55, 45.
Yeah.
Can you repeat what was the EBITDA per TEU in rail and CFS?
9,600 and stayed 1250 or 1270.
9,600 and CFS was?
1,270.
1,270. Got it. Yeah. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Aditya Mongia from Kotak Securities. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. And the first question that I had was linked to the issue of discounts and maybe custom pricing. Could you give us a color of where have these discounts been more focused on within the markets that you operate? Maybe a general color across the three markets. How has pricing kind of moved on a YY basis?
Sorry, I didn't get the second part, but basically, this is Ludhiana belt, which has seen the highest level of discounts, and what we're doing is trying to focus on 40 feet volume so that we can at least double-stack the cargo and still make a good margin on it.
Are the other markets static in terms of pricing, or have there been some pain over there also, in let's say, Delhi markets?
There has been, but not as much as Ludhiana.
Understood. The second question that I had was more to do with the competitors' move of setting up a terminal in GLPD. Now, I understand that the volumes coming from that perspective for you are limited. But does this lead to kind of limiting your gains from DFC once GLPD gets connected? Because someone already is setting up a terminal. Does that alter the way you think through GLPD over time?
No, it depends on where your origin and destination is. So for example, in NCR, like if we have a Garhi Harsaru terminal, we'll cater to the Bhiwadi, Neemrana, Rewari, this kind of market. So ultimately, it's the catchment area we have to focus on. Being near the port doesn't have any significant advantage from the ICD side.
Okay. The next question that I had was that, as in both of your peers are talking about total logistics solutions, both Adani Ports and Logistics, whether you want to think through it or CONCOR. Now, do we see this becoming a trend, and do we need to be investing in this line of work, or do you think that just doing the end-to-end rail transportation would work fine as a business model over time?
So we've been doing the end-to-end. We've been providing rail, road, and ICD under one entity since the beginning of our operation. There were some people who only were rail operators, some were only terminal operators. So we've had such philosophies, but we're not venturing into the port side or into the forwarding side, anything like that. But the domestic side is there. And then with Snowman, also domestic distribution, even on the dry side, is happening. So we're more into that aspect of end-to-end.
Understood. Maybe just a final question over here. I think you kind of talked about it, but is there any reversal of trend happening in favor of road because of maybe with the connectivity that is starting to hurt rail operators? Are there any instances of customers shifting away from rail that you can think of?
Not really. We haven't really seen anything on that front.
Got that. Those were my questions. Thank you for the knowledge of the best for you. Thank you.
Thanks.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Prashant Kalin from Star Capital. Please go ahead.
Sir, my question is about further increasing stake in Snowman Logistics. Do we have any plan to acquire the Snowman Logistics and delist it in the future?
Sorry, I didn't understand the question.
So now we are holding more than 50% of the Snowman Logistics. So do we have any plan to further increase the stake in Snowman Logistics and delist the company in future?
No, we aren't thinking along those lines. So no immediate plan to increase our stake. Our first target was to draw 50% by March, which we've done now. So we'll evaluate after some time.
Okay, so there is no plan to increase it further?
Yeah.
Okay. Okay. Thanks. That answers my question. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from Nuvama Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the follow-up opportunity, sir. If you could help us understand what has been the OCF for nine months cash flow from operations, and what is the CapEx number?
The nine months, the CapEx has been INR 20 crores. And what was your other question again?
Sorry, I'm not able to hear you, sir, clearly. Are you talking about Snowman, or are you talking about Gateway Distriparks?
Gateway Distriparks. So CapEx figure is 20 crores for nine months. The OCF, we don't have it handy right now. We'll just check and get back within the next few minutes.
Understood. And what is the CapEx we should work with for current year and next year in the rail business, rail plus CFS to any which way? I don't think we'll talk about CapEx, but for the rail piece.
I can just repeat it, please?
Hello?
Yeah. We lost your voice a second. Can you just repeat your last question?
Yeah. Rail business, what is the CapEx we should build in for FY25 and 26?
So the same as what we're talking about, it's the same figure. We're saying maybe about INR 250 crores, INR 250-300 crores when these are developed. Jaipur also, when it comes in, there'll be another INR 50-60 crores. Other than that, there'll be probably CapEx of about INR 30 crores next year, INR 30-40 crores for the next two years. This is on warehouse capacity and equipment replacement.
So you mean basically 30 crores kind of maintenance CapEx plus greenfield, INR 250-INR 300 crores for three terminals, plus INR 50-INR 60 crores if and when Jaipur resolves. Have I understood right?
Yeah.
Got it. And if you could just give us the mix in terms of NCR, Ludhiana, and Uttarakhand, NCR, Punjab, and Uttarakhand mix for us?
So we aren't sharing terminal-wise, actually. Terminal-wise numbers we aren't getting into.
Understood. And just one more question in terms of the pricing scenario. Are you seeing any element of change in terms of pricing scenario in all three markets, NCR, Punjab, and Uttarakhand?
Like we mentioned, Ludhiana is going through discounting. Even the other places, there is discounting, but not to that extent, so no pricing improvement anywhere, but most of our, say, 80% or more of our business is stable pricing, and the operating cash flow, you just got the figure, INR 250 crores for nine months.
250 crore OCF for nine months, right?
Yeah.
Wonderful. Sorry, if you could just point out, what has been the extent of discounting in Ludhiana market?
It's commodity-specific, weight-specific, volume-specific. So it's hard to say.
Would that be like 10, 12%? Would that be like four, five%? Any range?
Ranging from 5%-15%.
Understood. Understood. All right. So thank you. Wish you all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. Participants that have missed out due to time constraint can reach out to the management and SGA for Gateway Distriparks and Snowman Logistics for any further information. With that, we conclude this conference. Thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.