Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ankit Panchmatia, Head, Investor Relations. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yes, thank you. Yes, good morning, and thank you all for joining this call. The financial statement, press release, and presentation are uploaded on the exchanges and are available on our website. For safe harbor, kindly refer to the cautionary statement highlighted in the last slide of our presentation. Our leadership team is present today on this call to discuss our results. We have with us Mr. H.K. Agarwal, Managing Director, Mr. Pavan Jain, Chief Financial Officer, Grasim Industries. Also joining them, we have our business team, which is Mr. Jayant Dhobley, Business Head for Chemicals, Fashion Yarn, and Insulator Business; Mr. Himanshu Kapania, Business Head; and Mr. Rakshit Hargave, CEO of Birla Opus, our paints division; and Mr. Sandeep Komaravelly, CEO, Birla Pivot, our B2B e-commerce business.
Now, I hand over the call to Mr. Pavan Jain for his opening remarks, post which we will open the call for Q&A. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, Ankit, and good morning, everyone. Thank you all for joining us today to discuss our Fourth Quarter and Full Year, Financial Year 2024 Performance. To begin with, I will share some key updates, and then we will discuss macro environment, and finally, we will cover the business and financial performance. Firstly, alignment of our business segments reporting. So as new businesses are on path to attain meaningful scale in due course, we believe simplified and transparent reporting of such segments should help you evaluate and analyze consolidated segmental financial performance. Also, such reporting reflects underlying strength of Grasim's conglomerate structure, which commands leadership across key components of fastest growing Indian economy. The disclosure would now include five business segments at consolidated financial level. First one is the cellulosic fiber, which will include cellulosic staple fiber and cellulosic fashion yarn.
This segment was earlier referred as viscose segment. The second segment is chemicals, comprising of our caustic soda, chlorine derivatives, and specialty chemicals businesses. Third seg, third segment is building material, which includes cement business carried through our subsidiary, UltraTech, paints business, and B2B e-commerce businesses, which are business divisions at standalone level. Fourth segment is financial services business, which is housed in our subsidiary, Aditya Birla Capital. The fifth segment, others, comprises of textiles, renewables, and insulators businesses. The second update is that we have raised our, we have issued our first ever sustainability-linked non-convertible debentures of INR 1,250 crore during this quarter. International Finance Corporation, a member of World Bank Group, has invested in these entities of the company. The investment by IFC is a testament to our commitment to build long-term sustainable businesses, creating value for our stakeholders.
The third one is, a one-time charge of INR 716 crore at standalone level and INR 497 crore at consolidated level, on account of impairment provision against current investment and provision against expected exposure in our joint AV Terrace Bay. As informed earlier through our stock exchange filing, AV Terrace Bay, our joint venture with 40% holding, is operating paper grade pulp mill and has now stopped its operations due to non-viable operations and adverse market conditions. The company has recognized an impairment charge of INR 280 crore against carrying value of equity investment in AV Terrace Bay, and additionally, INR 436 crore has been provided to our estimated exposure in AV Terrace Bay.
AV Terrace Bay, as you know, had acquired a paper grade pulp mill in Canada in 2012, with a view to convert the same into dissolving grade pulp, which could not materialize. Paper grade pulp manufacturing is not core to our business interests, and its continuous losses, with no visibility of turnaround, has led to the decision of idling the operation and to explore the possibility of exiting this business. This is a one-time charge to P&L and has been disclosed as exceptional item with the decision of shutting the operations at AV TB, and now there will be no more losses of AV TB, to be consolidated in Grasim Financial. Coming to macroeconomic environment, on global front, central banks are more discussing about possible trimming of interest rates, but there are no timelines being put.
There is a dichotomy within central banks. On one hand, cutting rates too soon could accelerate current pace of growth with increasing inflationary pressures. On the other hand, cutting rates too late creates a risk of fragile recovery getting surrendered. China's economy grew faster than expected in the first quarter, with recovery in industrial production. However, consumption indicators like property investments and retail sales indicate that domestic demand remains frail, weighing on overall momentum. In the midst of geopolitical risks posed by elections, polarization, and conflicts, Indian economy remains in a robust growth trajectory, with the World Bank upgrading its economic growth forecast for fiscal 2025 by 20 basis points to 6.6%, driven by upward revision to investment growth. The new fiscal year started on a strong footing, with strong PMI numbers and all-time high GST collections of INR 2.1 trillion in April 2024.
Despite volatility in recent years, Grasim's revenue have more than doubled and EBITDA grew by 1.9 times since FY 2018. Leadership across diversified businesses provide underlying strength to such growth. We have ended the worldwide financial year on a high note. Some achievements of the year are like this: We have achieved highest ever consolidated revenue and EBITDA of INR 1,30,978 crore and INR 20,837 crore, respectively. We have also achieved highest ever sales volume of cement, cellulosic fiber, and caustic soda businesses. During this year, we have launched Birla Opus, the decorative paints business, with commencement of production at three greenfield plants in April 2024. Clocked highest ever turnover of INR 580 crore in FY 2024 from textile retail business.
B2B e-commerce revenue surpassed a milestone of INR 1,000 crore in its first year of operations. I now briefly touch upon each business segment. In VSF business, in our first cellulosic fiber business, our CSF volumes stood at 208,000 tons, with utilization level of over 95%. Realization in India was lower due to oversupply to Indonesia and decline in input prices, basically pulp and caustic, apart from other raw materials. And the benefit of declining input prices has been passed on to the value chain partners. Growth momentum could have been better if not for the new regulation around the MSME segments, which has reduced the demand from, especially from MSME segment to some extent.
Domestic demand in China was stable, which reflected in operating rates of around 85% and slight improvement in pricing. However, majority of Chinese CSF players are still making losses at current levels. In chemical business, post correction from historic high levels, global caustic soda prices appear bottomed and the rates have gradually improved for the third consecutive quarter. However, oversupply in domestic markets kept realization under pressure. Caustic sales- caustic soda sales volume continued to grow for us on year-over-year basis for straight 13 consecutive quarters. Our sales volume for the quarter stood highest ever at 308,000 tons. Lower caustic realizations and continued negative realizations of chlorine led to lower Q2 realizations during the quarter. Chlorine derivatives performance especially was subdued due to demand weakness, particularly in agrochemicals and oversupply in CMS. Building materials.
The segment growth was majorly driven by superior performance of our cement business, which commands a pan-India leadership position. The utilization for the year stood at 85%, higher than all-India level of around 71%. Our volume growth at 11% was also higher than the industry estimates of 7%-8%. In cement, we have added new capacity of 7.8 million tons in Q4, taking our domestic capacity to over 140 million tons. Global capacity for the company is 146.2 million tons. The incremental revenue in the segment is from paints and B2B e-commerce businesses. Birla Opus, our paints business, has already commenced production at three plants at Cheyyar, Panipat, and Ludhiana. Dealer meets and expos are being held for pan-India product launch. Birla Opus brand and quality both are receiving positive response.
Onboarding of dealers and placement of printing machines is happening as per plan. Outreach activities to influence influencers like painters and contractors are also going on as per schedule. Advertising and pro-brand promotion activities are also on track, and Birla Opus would be visible across the country in the current year. The revenue generation at Birla Pivot, our B2B e-commerce business, is gaining momentum, having crossed INR 1,000 crore revenue in its first year of operations. Currently, monthly run rate is of around INR 200 crore in Birla Pivot, with healthy repeat orders. Tiles and Plywood, which is our private label product, are currently getting good response, and we are also evaluating new product categories to increase the total addressable market. The business has aspirations to achieve $1 billion revenue in next three years.
In our financial services business, lending portfolio, which includes NBFC and housing finance companies, has increased by 31% YOY, surpassing INR 1,24,000 crore. Total assets under management, which includes HFC Life Insurance, health insurance, grew by 21% YOY at INR 4,36,000 crore. The business has announced amalgamation of Aditya Birla Finance with Aditya Birla Capital, which is under process and it is subject to requisite approvals. Simplification of structure, improved financial stability, increased operational efficiency, and likely shareholder value creation are some of the key benefits of the proposed amalgamation. Other businesses, segment, which has textiles, renewable and insulators, has also done well. Textile business is moving from pure manufacturing to retail, with highest ever B2C business revenue of INR 580 crore for the year, recording a CAGR of 28% over past three years.
Linen Club is now operating with 230 and available at 9,000+ MBOs. Renewable business continues to grow, gradually ramp up its operating capacity and remains on track to achieve 2-gigawatt level of capacity in current financial year. Insulator business remains self-sustaining, closing the current year with healthy order book. On the CapEx front, we continue to focus on growth CapEx with majority allocation on capacity expansion in building material segment. The consolidated CapEx for FY 2024 stood at INR 20,199 crore, 83% of which goes into growth CapEx. We have invested over INR 38,000 crore over past five years in growth CapEx.
On the rights issue front, the board has decided to make the first call of INR 453 per share, that is 25% of the issue price against the shares issued on rights basis in January 2024. This will enable raising INR 1,000 crore in Q2 FY 2024. The board has recommended dividend of INR 10 per share for INR 2 fully paid-up shares. For partly paid-up shares, dividend will be payable in proportion to the paid-up value. The company has a dividend payment record of continuously now for over 60 years. I have covered the key business updates and financial numbers, and the details are available in the results. We can now go for Q&A.
Thank you very much, sir. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask questions may press star and one on their touchtone phone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use only handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Tejas Shah from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for the opportunity. My question pertains to paint division, and I'll try to keep it short. So, can you provide an update on initial feedback that you would have got on quality on our Pan India launch day? If you can also share feedback on current dealer network that we have got in first few months, and what are we targeting for FY 2025? And also, if you can give us status and strategy update on depot network that we have today, and what are we planning by the end of this year?
Okay. Thanks, Tejas. This is Rakshit. I will answer all the three elements. The feedback on product quality that we have got across the range in India is excellent. Dealers are extremely happy. Contractors are very happy, the ones who have used, and this is across all the product segments where they have launched. We can already see usage, and we can see repeat usage. Like we said in Panipat, we've also done a very large sampling exercise, which is making it very evident that the product quality is absolutely top-notch. Secondly, your question on the dealer network and dealer adoption. So we said that our target in FY 2025 is to get 50,000 dealer onboarded, and we are absolutely on track in the first two months to be able to hit that number.
So obviously, we are able to onboard and build large number of dealers every month, as that will only enable us to reach that number, which is quite evident. In terms of depot network also, we had declared that our ambition and plan is to set up around 50 operating depots by the end of the financial year, and we are very much on track. We would be very close to half that number already.
Yeah. Thanks, Rakshit. Just one follow-up on that, between the two geographies, north and south, that we have kind of launched initially, where are we seeing more traction as of now?
You see, these are only first two months. While we said that we will start launching in north and south, but we also made a commitment that by July of this year, we will be available in all towns which have a population of one lakh plus. So effectively, by now, we have virtually entered all the states of India, where we have onboarded and built at least some dealers. We see pan-India traction. The product quality appreciation that we have done is independent of any region, so whether it is north, south, east or west. So I don't think that there is any differentiation in terms of a response in the first two months.
Perfect. Great. Thanks, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nirav Jimudia from Anvil Research. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. So my question pertains to the chemical side. So if we look at our ECU, it has come down by close to 1 on a Q-on-Q basis, which translates into an impact of INR 30 crore if you multiply by the caustic volumes, which we have reported on. However, our EBITDA has fallen by close to INR 70 crore. So was it because of the fall in the profits of either the specialty division or the VAP sales, or some of the costs have gone up this quarter and because of which this fall has happened?
Hi, Nirav, thanks for the question. Your math is correct. It's not because of cost. In fact, our costs are better. As was earlier mentioned by Pavan Jain, the real issue really lies in profitability of chlorine derivatives, which are largely used in agrochemical. As you know, the agrochem industry is not doing very well. So a lot of the derivatives that go into agrochem, whether that is carbon tetrachloride, methylene chloride, methylene dichloride, those are under pressure. And that is why you see that discretion. So it is not because of costs going up. In fact, it's also not because of the specialty volume. It's mostly related to chlorine derivative.
Because of the falling EBITDA is close to INR 70 crore, and I guess, the VAP contribution to the EBITDA is not to that extent, based on some calculations what I've done. So, possibly some one-time cost would have happened this quarter, because of which this fall has happened, and this should again restore in the subsequent quarters. How, how, do you see this?
So, Nirav, two things. First of all, we maximize for contribution margin. So as you know, we report some of the highest operating rates in the industry for utilization. What we typically do, we look at our total contribution margin across, caustic, chlorine, chlorine derivatives, and, and maximize for that, right? So that is one impact. And that's why you can't get too bogged down by looking only at individual product lines. Now, having said that, there are a couple of our plants, where in the last quarter, we have taken maintenance shutdowns for some repairs and for some upgradation, so there is some small impact of that.
Got it. So this won't happen next quarter, so that would get corrected?
Yeah, yeah. That is, you know, sometimes when you take a shutdown of your maintenance costs, et cetera, come in a long, right?
Got it. Sir, we also commissioned a new epoxy plant in December. Was there a volume growth in the epoxy division sequentially? Along with it, if you can also share any improvement which has happened on a sequential basis on the epoxy profits, which we have reported in Q4.
So, typically, you know, we don't break down the profitability of Epoxy separately.
No, no, sir, just, ballpark understanding in terms of any sequential improvement in percentage terms, that would also help.
Yeah. So there is, there is sequential improvement. What is the percentage of that just quickly calculate. But the plant is commissioned.
Okay.
The volumes have started to pick up. As you know, the epoxy business, you know, you have to get qualifications by customers.
Correct.
So, that takes a bit of time. But I would say the volume growth sequentially has been, I'm just saying off the top of my head, close to the volumes. Just a second. About 14%-15%.
Okay. Okay. Sir, this would be predominantly the LERs which we would be selling, because initially that would be an easy material to sell on. So how do we see the utilization rates picking up here? So because we have expanded close to 123,000 tons. So how do we see the pickup in the utilization rates of LER? And secondly, do we need to create the downstream value-added products for this LER to get absorbed, or we do have the sufficient capacities of the downstream products, and as and when the customer requirement comes up, we can convert those LER into the value-added products and start selling those products in the market?
So as you know, our expanded capacity actually is a mix of LER, reactive rayon, polyester and polyamide hardeners . So this is the portfolio. So it's not an exact copy of the first 123 KT. What you have correctly also said is typically, you know, LER sells first, and we do formulate further from the LER into value-added products. I think it would be fair for you to assume that it will take us about minimum 24, maximum 36 months to sell the entire capacity. That would, of course, depend a lot upon, you know, how the end markets develop. And we specialize in composites, in coatings. So as qualifications increase, then more and more of our LER tends to get consumed later.
... Got it. So just two last clarifications. So one, based on the presentations of this year as well as last year, our total CapEx in the epoxy is close to INR 326 crore. So is this the total CapEx what we have spent, or was there any earlier CapExes also which have happened, and the total CapEx amount stands higher than this amount?
Well, that's, that's about order of magnitude, okay. You know, there is always some, some maintenance, et cetera. I, I didn't actually understand the,
No, CapEx.
The meaning behind the question.
The total CapEx. Total CapEx for the expansion of the epoxy plant.
Yes. Yes, most of the CapEx spend has gone into expansion of the capacity.
Okay, okay. And sir, last bit is on the chlorine side. So last time you mentioned that, Q3, we had a negative realization of INR 3, and the run rate was close to INR 4 in Q4. So how that was on an average basis for Q4? And secondly, we have seen some strengthening of the caustic soda prices in the current month. So is it fair to assume that Q1 would see some improvement in our recovery realizations? Thank you.
Yes. So, for quarter four, our negative chlorine was around 3.5, 3.5, 3.6. So actually, it was worse. In Q1, you are right, that there is some improvement in the market. So we have seen a slight improvement. Now let's see whether that improvement holds. As you know, the chemical markets are quite volatile. The chlorine had become more negative in Q4 compared to Q3 by about 5%. And it is getting somewhat better in the first quarter of this financial year, both caustic as well as chlorine.
Got it, sir. Thank you so much, and wish you all the best.
Thanks. You do a very comprehensive analysis of the chemical business, Nirav, usually.
Thank you so much, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you. We'll take... Before we take the next question, a reminder to all the participants that you may please press star and one to ask questions. The next question is from the line of Percy Panthaki from IIFL Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi, Ankit, good morning. My question is on the paint segment. So can you give some idea as to how many tinting machines have you placed till date?
Yeah. How are you doing, Percy? No, thanks for asking that. So like we said, we will be sharing the number at a later stage, but what I can tell you is that we have a very aggressive plan of placing tinting machines and with a very high dealer penetration, and we are on track.
Right. And to the previous question, when you had mentioned that, the target is 50,000, and we are on track to achieve that, is it that the progression is linear, or would it be exponential? I'm just trying to figure out, I mean, at least at the ballpark, should I be taking 50,000 divided by 12, multiplied by 2 as the rough ballpark of dealers, or that would be a wrong way to look at it?
No, Percy, I think that will be slightly wrong. It will be slightly overweight towards the first half.
Slight overweight towards the first half. So you're saying the recruitment would be higher in the first half of the year than the second half of the year?
Yes.
Okay, okay. Understood. Secondly, I wanted to understand that in terms of your—I mean, your—terms of trade with your dealers, paint dealers, how does that differ versus the large incumbents in terms of margins or schemes? Are the schemes more volume-based, or are they sort of based on some other parameter? What are the differences in terms of how you incentivize your dealers versus the other larger incumbents?
So, you know, we have been meeting dealers across India. We have met the top 7,000 dealers, and we have shared our commercial program, which is out there in the public. So there is a certain benefit that the dealers get in terms of price, then there is a certain benefit which the contractor community gets in terms of the rewards. And then we have this offer for the end consumer, which gives them 10% free volume on emergent purchases. So if you look at the total package at the dealer and contractor end, we would be, say, about 7%, 7.5% better than the market. And if you work out on the 10% for the volume, that's how it turns out to be. It has already been analyzed in the market before, but that's the commercial program that we have given.
So versus the large incumbents, roughly, how much would be the benefit that your dealers would get? Is it like a 300-400 basis points benefit? Not talking about the extra volume, which is a benefit to the end consumer.
Well, you know, that would be difficult to calculate because the large dealers have, the large players have various programs with other dealers. But what we can say is that the adoption by larger dealers also for Birla Opus, as we see, is attractive, which means that the proposition is working for them.
Okay. And last time we spoke, you had mentioned that you would be targeting to place tinting machines in 80%-90% of your dealer network. Would I be right in assuming that that kind of percentage is already something that you are running at currently, for whatever dealers you have recruited?
... Yeah, so like we said that we have an aggressive program. I don't recall whether I said 80% or 90%, but it's a number which is fairly high, and we are running on track.
Okay, okay. Yeah, that's all from me, Ankit. Thanks, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Prateek Kumar from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Hello, yeah. Good morning, everyone. My first question is on VSF. So in VSF, we are operating already at 98% utilization, very strong volume growth current year. How are we seeing, I mean, with utilization cap, how are we looking at growth in this segment over the next two years? Also, we have exited this year probably at strongest unit EBITDA in VSF segment. How are we looking at the unit EBITDA ex- for the next two years in the segment?
Yeah. So, we have a good volume growth in the last financial year compared to previous one. Q4 was similar to Q3 in terms of volume. And, there was some hiccup because the MSME notification for payments came into play from February onwards, so the volume was disturbed little bit. But currently, the volumes are running at similar pace, and we are trying to ramp up production as much as possible at our different lines. So we see some opportunity there to keep pace with demand. On the unit EBITDA, we were benefited, we benefited from the decline in raw material prices in the last year. And, those prices are hovering some item increase, some item same, some item reduced.
It will move along at a similar thing with slight increase in the last one or two months. We have to see how it goes. Even prices have also softened a bit in last two months in China, so we will see how it goes.
Just a related question: so 24 KT, which is the capacity of VSF in FY 2024, is, can it be bottlenecked to, like, 900 KT, like, eventually, without doing much CapEx? Or, like, as a result, we might have just, like, 3%-5% volume growth in this segment, next two years, or, or the capacity can remain in the bottleneck, later on?
Yeah, we are trying our best, and there are some opportunities, but I would not like to give any confirmed figure how much. But, yes, we have been working on that, and that is very much on our... Yeah, so about 4%-5% growth we should have compared to last year in yes, next last quarter.
On this Canada business closure of pulp business, is this something which affects our raw material procurement in this business? Because that was captive unit. And how is the captive raw material percentage now for VSF?
So this unit, which we have taken a decision to close, was not producing dissolving grade pulp. It was producing pulp, paper grade pulp. And that was one factor behind our decision to close the unit, as economics were not working. The wood cost has increased there too much, and this was not a dissolving grade pulp mill. Our captive pulp mill pulp procurement is around 35%. It has been in this range for quite some time, and it remains at that level. And we, our procurement is stable. We have long-term contracts with some leading dissolving grade pulp producers, some for more than three decades, some for last four, five years, new players. And everybody is very keen to work with us.
All the new dissolving grade players are very keen to work with us as long-term suppliers. So we are quite comfortable on that front.
A question on CapEx. We haven't given any CapEx outlook in the presentation after FY 2024, INR 5,900 crore. Any number which we should work with or a similar number for next two years?
You are talking for Grasim as a whole, or you are talking of any particular, business?
Grasim as a whole. Maybe we can discuss if, if you have granular details also, but, Grasim as a whole as of now on, possible to-
Yeah. CapEx spend for next year would be about, I think INR 4,500 crore for the company as a whole, which will mainly comprise the large amount going into paints business, and the remaining part of the INR 10,000 crore CapEx announced for the paints.
This is on the standalone basis.
Yeah, standalone company.
Last question on paints-
Mr. Kumar, I'm sorry to interrupt, sir. I would request you to kindly rejoin the queue for follow-up questions, please. We have other participants who are waiting for their turn. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management will be able to address questions from all the participants in the conference, kindly limit your questions to two per participant. Should you have a follow-up question, please rejoin the queue. Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Siddhesh Raje from ICICI Prudential Mutual Fund. Please go ahead. Mr. Raje, I have unmuted your line. Kindly proceed.
Hello, can you hear me?
Yes, sir, please proceed.
Yeah, I, my question is regarding dividend policy. So, the understanding was that the UltraTech's dividend gets passed through. So in this financial year, that has not happened, so how should we see that going ahead?
Yeah. So, I think, the policy was to pay out to be ranging 25%-45%. And, within that range, we will try to pass on the dividend received from UltraTech and other key subsidiaries. That is the policy. But, we have also the policy also says that looking at the CapEx plans of the company, et cetera, and other factors, there can be variation to this extent. So given the large ongoing CapEx plans of the company, especially in the paints business, we have not passed on fully the UltraTech dividend this year, but that is, I think, it's specific to this year's situation. Going forward, we can't comment now, but I think it will be more prerogative.
But still, the payout ratio is still quite high, almost 40%.
Yes.
Which is much higher than the previous years when the full UltraTech dividend was passed on. So you should appreciate that all the operating profit is affected, but we are maintaining the dividend.
Okay. And, secondly, this CapEx for paints, which happened of INR 1,067 crore, so given that commercial operations have started in April, there would be certain expenses which we would have to capitalize. So can you just give some color as to how much capitalization of expenses happened in last quarter?
How much?
Capitalization of expenses.
Capitalization? So, we have capitalized three. We have put the commercial production from twenty-ninth of April. Yes. So almost all the pre-operative expenses for three plants before that date were that day-
Continue to capitalize.
Now from 29th April, it's all three plants are fully commercial production, so everything is going through income statement.
Can you quantify the amount which has got capitalized?
Well, it is not. No, I think he wants to ask how much are now, there will be-
Now, how much?
So that, you can, you can take offline this time. We don't have that number ready to go.
Okay, thanks.
Yeah, but first year of, full year of operation, paint operation, there will be a lot of, investment in marketing, in branding, in advertisement. So all those things will be first time, and they will all go through income statement.
Yeah.
You should be expecting that as a part of building a new business.
Got it. Thank you, sir.
Yeah. While it will go as a P&L chart, but it is like an investment in establishing the new business.
Okay.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abneesh Roy from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks. I have a few questions on paints. So this is the first quarter where the paint launch has happened. So first question is, when you see JSW Paints, they have become INR 2,000 crore after five years of launch, and there is captive demand also being present there. Second is, if you see the top two paint companies, they have given guidance of double-digit volume growth in FY 2025 and even in Q1. So if you mix all this, where does your optimism now stand, given launch has finally happened, but then the competitors seem to be still quite gung-ho in terms of demand, even in the first year? And the other player who has entered, he has done only INR 2,000 crore in five years.
You have an INR 10,000 crore target in the FY 2028. So if you could tell us, how does this all map up?
Yeah. So Abneesh, see, the way we look at it, JSW has done a certain turnover. The other companies have given a certain guidance when they're talking about double-digit volume. If you take a look at the results which have come, while the volume growth is high, the value growth is very low. I think we are looking at it as a different case because we have come here to make some changes in the way we operate in the paint industry. And the changes that we will bring and the disruption that we will bring, that we disclose in Panipat, and you will see that as the year goes on. As far as we are concerned, we are going to be gaining share. We can already see that we are onboarding dealers, there is uptake, contractors are liking it.
So we are not so bothered about if competition is saying 10%, and that should make me feel that, "Okay, how can they grow so much?" I am competing against the numbers, and I have a solid plan, and I am moving up on my business plan. And to that effect, we are very optimistic about what we have said, and we are on plan. That is how I would say.
Sure. My second question will be on the disruptions which you had announced in Panipat. It was extremely detailed. Now, almost every paint company in the Q4 analyst call or analyst meet said all these disruptions have been tried earlier, in terms of extra grammage, in terms of extra warranty, in terms of free painting machine. So to that extent, now, because now you are there in the market, what is the dealer feedback? Because this is not really a disruption, this has been tried earlier, and it works to an extent... But is it really disruptive? Till now, it hasn't been. Second is, when you put the tinting machine, a lot of the free tinting machines are put at the back of the dealer shop.
So India ..., so if the tinting machine is at the back, then, what is the, what is the response?
So, you know, as far as the disruptions are concerned, I think it is very early for even competition to say that in two months they have not seen anything, because you will see how gradually we roll out, and our success will also lie on executing those disruptions successfully. And our organization is actually designed to do that. As far as tinting machines are concerned, we are very confident that the tinting machines that are being put by Birla Opus are tinting machines which will actually get used. And we can already see usage of our tinting machines are happening. They are performing excellently. As we had announced, they are connected with our back end. We have live information of what is being tinted in terms of bases and products on a daily basis. We can actually already withdraw that. No company can do that today.
So what I would say is that giving free tinting machine is a way of accessing the market and winning the dealer. Our tinting machine is also unique. It is about 40% smaller in terms of area. So I think in terms of tinting machine, I would not agree with the fact at all that Birla Opus tinting machines will be put in the backyard. I think they are being already put to use. And on the disruption, like I said, very early for someone in two months to say that nothing and all these things have happened before. Please keep watching, because we are also going to execute them successfully, and our business model is designed to do that, which is why we've taken three years to prepare for it to come to the market.
Thanks. All the best. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Latika Chopra from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for the opportunity. Two questions, again, on paints. The first, you know, you said that the dealer feedback, the contractor feedback on paints, on quality is quite good. So just wanted to check, you know, does it imply that you're quite comfortable with your pricing strategy at this point? And, you know, you talked about, you know, 70%-10% kind of a, you know, dealer margin or dealer benefit. And at this point, you do not see any reason, you know, to play around with that and/or even in terms of different kind of paints that you launched, you know, premium, economy, and luxury. Any comments on that?
So I think, the first question on product quality, like we said, the acceptance of product quality across all the segments that we have launched, whether it is exterior, interior, and within that luxury, premium or economy, or if you take a look at waterproofing, enamels, the feedback from contractors and dealers is extremely positive. They are actually very pleasantly surprised that in keeping with the Birla brand name, the product which has come out is exceptional, both in terms of performance and ease of usage. So I would say that, the acceptance of product quality is actually unanimously uniform across the whole segment.
In terms of pricing, you know, what we have come out in the market, I think we are happy with what we have put, and we are steady with what we have put, and we are rolling it out across the country.
Sure. The second bit I wanted to check was, you know, and I think, some, someone, alluded to the fact that, during the course of the year, you're going to step up advertising spends or above-the-line spends on, on the paints category. So should we anticipate much of that is gonna be seen in the second half, you know, probably closer to the festive season, and once you've kind of rolled out, you know, the portfolio to more dealer base?
So, yes, you know, we will indulge in above-the-line advertising. Probably you have not noticed, but we are already on with our outdoor plan in South India, Chennai, Bangalore, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka. The outdoor plan is up in Punjab already. It is up in Delhi from today. Obviously, logically, it will follow also with television and other digital media as we drive up our distribution. So as expected, we had announced that we will aggressively invest in building the brand, which is going to happen in due course.
Thank you so much.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants to kindly limit their questions to two per participant. We'll take the next question from the line of Raashi Chopra from Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Just, coming back to the VSF and the chemicals business, any sort of outlook on the margins profitability from here, as well as pricing for both?
Chemical. Oh, I thought you said VSF and chemical. Anyway, chemical-
VSF and chemicals both.
Okay. So since I started, so thanks, thanks for the question. See, look, the pricing more or less is range bound. Whether you look in caustic, whether you look in chlorine or for that matter, even epoxies. What you must have observed if you are following the chemical sector, is there is still a lot of surplus capacity in China, and their domestic consumption has not yet picked up, which means there is a lot of exports of all range of chemicals, which is affecting the chemical industry globally, including India and including, for example, exports of agrochem, etc., from India. So we see actually this quarter to be range bound. You know, there may be some ups and downs and potentially the next quarter as well.
... What may help us is if globally the agrochem industry picks up. You know, the, the monsoons in India have proven to be better. Let us see what happens in South America and the U.S. If we start to see good news coming out of the agricultural sector, or we start to see good news coming out of the Chinese consumer, then I think that will be very quickly reflected across the chemical industry and including the Chlor-Alkali portfolio.
Yeah. So, to add to what Jayant has said about the macro factors, the global business conditions still remain little bit impacted by high interest rates, though inflation seems to be coming down, but still interest rates are expected to remain high. That keeps on impacting the real consumer demand in Western Europe, especially. Of late, cotton prices have come down in anticipation of better crop in the coming crop season. Consumption remains good, and raw material prices are also remaining bound. So there will not be, I think, too much change either way in the profitability of VSF business, at least in the near term.
Jayant here, back from the chemical business. So maybe one more thing to add is we do observe, whether in caustic or in, or in chlorine derivatives or for that matter, even in epoxy, that the contribution margins are such that there is very limited scope or very limited possibility for prices to drop further, unless something strange happens, for example, with feedstock prices or energy prices, that could move it. But you know, at the current level of feedstock costs, there is actually very little playing room, particularly in the Chinese industry, to drop utilization rates below where they are today. So we don't see much of a downside from there. It can't go worse. Yeah, it can't get much worse unless, you know, crude suddenly drops or something like that. Then that changes the whole economy.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Prateek Kumar from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Hello. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity again. My first question is on your B2B e-commerce. Are we looking to add, like, more value private label products in the segment? Can you throw some light after, like, couple of products which we have talked about earlier?
Yeah. Hi, this is Sandeep here. We have launched tiles and ply in this financial year, where you know, our focus right now is to increase the penetration for both of these products across different channels, whether it is our you know, channel, which is our developers and contractors or the retail channel. That is the focus for now. Next year we are evaluating a few categories, but you know, nothing specific as of now. The focus will remain on increasing the penetration for both of these products or categories.
Just one question on paints. While you have discussed enough in the call, but how has been the response from competition, like in first maybe one month and a half months of a product launch in the market?
Well, the response from competition, the way I will answer is, all dealers are saying that competition, which was relatively absent in the market, has become extremely active, and they are visiting us more regularly and they're showing a lot more intent. So the way I would want to read it is obviously, you know, they're trying to defend their ports, and they're doing what it takes, which shows that they are alert and maybe also apprehensive. But like we said, we are moving on with what our plan is, and we are executing and, you know, we are meeting our benchmarks.
Related question, there's any increased discounts, pricing, or like, margins which the competition also talked about, while you have talked about aggressive ROIs for the dealers?
No, I think, at least what we have seen in the last 2.5-3 months, it's status quo, or what it was before.
You should go and visit the paints dealer.
Yeah. You know, sometimes, next month we can arrange for visits to dealers for you to actually find out. We can work on that schedule.
Thank you, sir. That would be useful, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aakash Goel from Tara Capital Partners. Please go ahead.
Hello?
Yes, please proceed.
Yeah. Yeah. Hi, morning, sir, and congratulations on the good quarter. So I just had one small clarification. Most of the other questions have been answered. Is that in the standalone business, when I'm seeing the employee cost, that has come off sharply, both quarter-on-quarter as well as year-on-year. So what exactly has happened there? Because we are starting off with our paints business as well, so I was expecting that maybe the employee cost either hold up or, you know, we see some steady increase. So what exactly has played out for this quarter?
So nothing very specific or any special item. But see, as far as paints is concerned, the employee cost continues to be capitalized for the employees, which are involved in the projects implementation. Okay? So, t he charge will start from the current quarter, post capitalizing in, at the end of April, when we have commenced the commercial production. That will start to P&L from this quarter. Otherwise, there are, I think, some year-end adjustments like the valuation of the retirement liabilities, particularly, which has gone down because of the higher discounting rates, et cetera. And then some of the businesses have made, I think, some lower provisions of variable pay because of the current year's performance, et cetera. So these are like year-end normal adjustments like that. And there have been some write backs earlier in the earlier quarters.
Understood. Understood. Got it. Thank you so much, and best of luck.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Praful Kumar from Dymon Asia Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir, good afternoon. Congratulations on a great launch. A couple of questions on paint business. Now, first question is that if you look at the margins of a market leader, clearly, the gap that we thought in terms of launch, in terms of our pricing versus theirs, seems to have reduced. That's what we are picking. Just want to get a confidence in terms of market share gain, given that, you know, the competition, especially the market leader, will not, you know. It will make it easy for us to gain market share as we go towards, you know, the expansion, the project cost.
I didn't get the question. You're talking about project cost,
Oh, so the question is, the difference at the time of launch, when the product was launched, your paint business was, say, 5% plus dealer margin of 10%-15%. So we were 15-odd% cheaper than the market leader today, which after we saw the market leader results, seem to have been narrowed, the pricing gap between you and the number one player today. And that's what we are picking, that the market share gains that, you know, you can research, might be tough to come by, given that, you know, the incumbent will not let the market share go very easily. So your thoughts on that?
So, you know, the incumbents will try and defend their market share, which is very obvious. If I was there in their place, I would do the same. But our market share hypothesis is built not only on pricing, which is just one of the factors. Our market share hypothesis is firstly based on excellent product quality, excellent market working with influencers, which is contractors, which is a very attractive program for them. Excellent distribution build up, being able to supply, and you know, we are building up our range. I have not talked about it today, but we are building up our range very successfully because what the dealers are looking at is assurance of supply.
As we build up our range, as we open up depots, we are observing that the confidence in the last two months of the dealers to accept that when they place their order with Birla Opus, they should by and large get the product is improving. It does take time to build up a range, but the way we have progressed, we are very happy. And obviously, the data that we are getting from the systems, the track and trace that we implemented last mile, it is also going to come into play. We are doing several things. So our market share hypothesis, while obviously what the dealer makes in terms of an ROI is important, and I think we will also deliver on that.
Our market share hypothesis is based on several factors, and I think we are very confident that in terms of executing it, we are as per our plan.
Superb. Secondly, sir, in terms of market share, please pardon my ignorance-
I'm sorry to interrupt, sir.
I just asked one question. This is my second question.
Um, okay.
Just two questions.
Yeah.
So second question is, sir, in terms of market share over the next three years, generally, given the fact that, you know, it was a great launch, you are hiring so many people, the trajectory of market share gains has to be, say, significant in year one and then slowly getting, adding more every year, or it should be slowly in year one and gradually picking up in year two and three?
So I think, the question itself has many different trajectories. But what I can again reemphasize that what we told in Panipat was that our ambition is to exit this financial year in high single digits, and I think we are working towards that, if not to meet or better it, and we feel that, you know, we are on track in terms of indicators. So I would actually suggest to answer it this way.
Okay. Thank you, sir. All the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amit Sachdeva from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you so much for taking my question. So thank you so much for sharing your details on paints business. It's again, a small detail on, I wanted, but in that assumption of three-year target and also given the pricing that you have, you know, sort of disclosed and the responses you've got, and it seems like you are very comfortable with how things are shaping up. My, my question is on in terms of capacity utilization assumptions that you sort of make in this hypothesis of high single-digit share by year-end and perhaps, you know, teens kind of share in three years' time. What sort of in your thinking and modeling what capacity utilization will get you there? And is there any risk to t hat you see?
You know, our installed capacity is 1,332 million liters per hour.
Right.
Three of our factories are already operating, and, obviously, they are operating at a certain capacity. Now, what we had declared is that in first three year of full operations, we will hit INR 10,000 crore. Sure. Obviously, the capacity which will be delivered by the three factories is more than that. But the factories also take time to scale up, and, the scaling up of the first three factories is already up. We have also declared that numbers 4, 5, and 6 will also get, you know, operational later this financial year. So the capacity utilization of the factories will keep on growing gradually, as we keep on driving our sales. And, you know, we will be able to monitor the balance between what we are manufacturing and what we are selling. Obviously, we want to utilize our factories better.
We are also working in terms of how to make the factories work more efficiently, and how to make sure that, you know, the right KPIs are driven. But I don't see—I think what we have done is set up enough capacity to be able to take advantages of swings and opportunities which might come, so that we don't have to wait, and be out of the market. So I think that's the step, that was the building strategy, that we should first develop enough capacity for us to go national in the first slot and not try a regional strategy. So that's why I would want to base this on.
Sure, no, that's very helpful, sir. So my question is that, can I just hazard a guess then? You know, my sense is that INR 10,000 crore kind of revenue target, is it sort of safer to assume, given the installed capacity would be, you know, 1.33 million kiloliters and things, would be like 50% utilization is like your base number. To get there, you need about 50% utilization. Is it? Because the reason I'm asking this is that it has also a, you know, some pricing discipline inbuilt into it as an assumption. So, so my view is that, how desperate are you to fill the capacity, or are you okay to have 50% capacity utilization in 3 years? That sort of intent of how you want to develop this market.
So what I want is your, what is your first priority, to get the utilization to that certain number, or you gradually build the capacity utilization, you don't care really about that, you want to build it organically in a disciplined manner, how the business is progressing, given the pricing you're putting in place, and you're okay with that, and you don't see any substantial response from competition as well. So it seems like a good foot in the door. And how do you... So the reason I'm asking is that, how desperate you would be to fill that capacity at certain level?
So you see, we also declared that when we do the third year business of INR 10,000 crore, we will also be looking at turning profitable.
Right.
As we have done the math, and you know the realization per milliliter or per kiloliter from competition, most of the companies are in the same ballpark range. So you would know that if 1,332 kilo, 1,332 milliliter is sold, what turnover will be generated? Obviously, it is more than 10,000. So the way I would put it is that we would be aggressive in terms of driving our distribution, in building our brand, in acquiring dealers. With that, you know, there is a certain volume share gain that we will keep on getting quarter-over-quarter, and we will keep taking that. I would not want to use the word desperation, because when we shared this number and the capacity that we have worked, we have already factored those maths in our business plan.
Got it, sir. Thank you so much. No, that's very helpful. I still get a good idea of how you're thinking about this. Thanks so much.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraint, that was the last question for today. Thank you, members of the management. On behalf of Grasim Industries, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.