Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the HFCL Q4 FY25 Earnings Conference Call hosted by ICICI Securities Limited. Before we begin, I would also like to read the disclaimer statement. Statements made during this call may be forward-looking in nature based on management's current beliefs and expectations. They must be viewed in relation to the risks that HFCL's business faces that could cause its future results, performance, or achievements to differ significantly from what is expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. Investors are therefore requested to check the information independently before making any investment or other decisions. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star within zero on your touchstone phone.
Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Mohit Lohia from ICICI Securities Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yeah, hi. Thank you, Navya, and good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today for the concluding call of HFCL Limited for FY 2025. First of all, I would like to thank management for providing us the opportunity to host the call. From the management side, we have Mr. Mahendra Nahata, Promoter and Managing Director; Mr. V R Jain, Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Manoj Baid, Company Secretary; and Mr. Amit Agarwal, Head of Investor Relations. Without further delay, I would now hand over the call to Mr. Nahata for opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you very much, Mohit, and good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I welcome all of you to HFCL's earnings call for the fourth quarter and financial year ended 31st March 2025. I trust you have had the opportunity to review our financial results, press release, and earnings presentation, which are available on our website and also on the website of stock exchanges. The Global trade landscape is undergoing a dynamic transformation driven by the resurgence of protectionist policies, a recent announcement, and subsequent temporary pause on reciprocal tariffs.
Ladies and gentlemen, we seem to have lost the management's line. Please stay connected while we rejoin them.
Sorry.
Yes, sir.
I think there was some disconnection, and I would read the, I think, where we got disconnected. India is responding proactively to this evolving environment by strengthening its industrial base and accelerating its transition towards an innovative economy. This also includes sectors like telecommunication, Semiconductors, Artificial Intelligence, Machine learning, and quantum technology, where in India is positioning itself as a global leader. We believe HFCL is well positioned to thrive in this evolving environment by being both future-ready and deeply rooted in innovation. Globally, telecom sector is growing significantly. Mobile subscription will exceed 8.7 billion by 2025, with over 1.8 billion 5G users. Growth is driven by high-speed networks, data center expansion, cloud, and artificial intelligence. In India, by December 2024, the sector served 1.19 billion users, with wireless users at 1.06 billion, fueling digital inclusion.
India's telecom sector, backed by investments and policy support, is set to drive a $1 trillion digital economy by 2029-2030. ARPU is projected to grow by 10%-12% in FY 2026, led by rising usage of 5G and rural data usage. These trends are generating sustained demand for fiber, telecom gear, and next-gen connectivity solutions, where HFCL is strongly poised to lead. Beyond telecom, the defense sector is fast emerging as a transformative and strategic growth engine for HFCL, offering potential for high-value and long-term value creation. India's renewed emphasis on indigenizing critical defense technologies, supported by the government's earmarking 75% of the defense capital procurement budget for domestic players, has opened up unprecedented opportunities for homegrown defense manufacturers.
HFCL has made decisive early investments in building a robust portfolio of advanced defense technologies, including ground surveillance and coastal surveillance radars to protect strategic locations, night vision devices for enhanced operational effectiveness in low-visibility combat, electronic fuzes that enhance safety and precision in modern munitions, high-capacity radio relay systems for real-time high-bandwidth mission-critical communication, and tactical optical fiber cables designed for rapid deployment and ruggedized use in battlefield and disaster recovery scenarios. These products are engineered for both Indian and international defense markets, and we are already witnessing interest from India's armed forces and foreign countries. Our Drone Detection Radar, currently under development, is expected to enter production within the current financial year. We recently also inaugurated a state-of-the-art defense equipment manufacturing facility in Hosur, Tamil Nadu.
The new facility is dedicated to producing cutting-edge defense products, including HFCL's indigenously developed thermal weapon sights, electronic fuzes, high-capacity radio relay systems, and surveillance radars tailored to meet the evolving needs of armed forces. I further wish to inform you that to further bolster our strategic positioning, we have signed two technology licensing agreements with DRDO for Compact Trans-Horizon Communication Systems for ensuring high data rate, low latency, terrestrial backhaul communication systems that enable connectivity in remote locations, and also the second technology for multi-mode hand grenade. These agreements reinforce our commitment of delivering battlefield-ready innovations that are modular, effective, and built for modern warfare. As DRDO continues to lead India's defense R&D ecosystem, we foresee more such collaborations that will allow us to manufacture indigenous next-generation defense products at scale. We have also developed tactical cables, which are used by the army in battlefield environments.
These are an integral part of HFCL's high-performance connectivity solutions, designed to deliver robust, secure, and reliable communication even in the most demanding and mission-critical environments. We have already received a contract for INR 44 crore from the Indian Army for supply of tactical cables. Results from similar large tenders, where we have already participated, are expected soon. Our subsidiary, HFCL Limited, has ventured into the wire harness business for the defense sector, which is a high-potential, low-capex segment with good profitability prospects. We are already executing initial orders for critical applications in various fighter jet upgrades and T-72 tanks, underscoring our role in India's defense modernization. With increasing domestic demand and export potential, the wire harness business represents a good growth potential. Rapid evolution of artificial intelligence is set to drive an unprecedented surge in global data consumption. This is fueling massive investments in hyperscale and edge data centers worldwide.
As the backbone of this infrastructure, the demand for high-capacity optical fiber cables is growing exponentially. HFCL, with its future-ready portfolio of high-capacity data center-grade cables, is well positioned to capitalize on this growth and demand. With the market momentum building rapidly, we expect a strong pipeline of orders. After experiencing subdued demand for Optical fiber Cables over the past six to seven quarters, leading to lower capacity utilization during this period, we are pleased to share that our Optical fiber manufacturing has now begun operating at full capacity, starting from quarter one of 2026, as against 45% capacity utilization during 2025. Our Optical fiber cable manufacturing capacity utilization was also 40% during the last financial year. This will also start operating at full capacity by July 2025.
With market conditions showing clear signs of recovery and new growth drivers such as 5G rollouts, data center expansion, BharatNet phase three execution, and rising export demand, our revenue from optical fiber cables during FY 2026 is expected to improve significantly. Our passive connectivity solutions business for optical fiber networking in HFCL Limited, our subsidiary company, is undergoing a strategic transformation with a sharp focus on expanding into global markets. Until now, this business was largely domestic, but starting FY 2026, we expect our revenue to increase from exports. We have achieved a major milestone during FY 2024-2025 by successfully developing indigenous MPLS routers designed to support 5G backhaul, fiber broadband, and enterprise networks. These routers are engineered to perform reliably even under stringent working environments, making them suitable for both civil and defense applications. We have already secured orders worth INR 8,000,000,000 for this innovative product.
HFCL achieved another significant milestone in FY 2024-2025 by becoming the first Indian company to develop, or rather the only Indian company till now, to develop and commercially launch 5G Fixed Wireless Access Customers premises equipment, a critical enabler of last-mile wireless connectivity in the 5G era. In its very first year of launch itself, we have successfully dispersed over 400,000 units of this equipment, demonstrating strong market acceptance. With growing demand from telecom operators and internet service providers, we expect to have continuous demand for this product. I am happy to inform that during the last week itself, we have received another order worth INR 1.74 billion for this product. As we continue to grow, we remain firmly committed to sustainable business practices.
We are proud to share that HFCL has received an ESG score of 70.9 from SES ESG Research, which is a strong endorsement of our efforts to integrate environmental, social, and governance principles into every aspect of our operations. Our strategic investments in R&D, capacity expansion, strategic focus on defense, data centers, and global markets are now converging to create a robust platform for long-term profitable growth. I am pleased to report that our order book on 31 March 2025 stands at INR 9,967 crore compared to INR 7,685 crore as of 31 March 2024. Before I walk you through our financial performance for quarter four and full year of FY 2025, let me take a moment to set the context. FY 2025 was a year of both strategic endorsement and transitional changes.
While our financial performance was impacted by the downturn in optical fiber cable demand, margin pressure from newly launched telecom products, and slower customer uptake in our EPC business, we remained focused on strengthening the foundation for long-term growth. Let me now, friends, highlight our financial performance for FY 2025 and quarter four of FY 2025. For the above 12 months ended 31 March 2025, the company reported consolidated revenue of INR 4,064 crore as against INR 4,465 crore in FY 2024, reported EBITDA of INR 507 crore as against INR 82 crore in 2024, profit before tax was INR 217 crore as against INR 454 crore in FY 2024, and profit after tax of INR 173 crore as against INR 338 crore in FY 2024. Revenue for quarter four in FY 2025 stood at INR 800.72 crore as compared to INR 1,011.95 crore in quarter three of FY 2025 and INR 1,326.06 crore in quarter four of FY 2024.
EBITDA for quarter four of FY 2025 stood at INR 22.33 crores as compared to INR 171.89 crores in quarter three of FY 2025 and INR 209.29 crores in quarter four of FY 2024. EBITDA margin of quarter four FY 2025 stood at 2.79% as compared to 16.99% in quarter three of FY 2025 and 15.78% in quarter four of FY 2024. Profit after tax in quarter four FY 2025 stood at INR 83.30 crores as compared to INR 72.58 crores in quarter three of FY 2025 and INR 109.36 crores in quarter four of FY 2024. PAT margin in quarter four of FY 2025 stood at 10.40% as compared to 7.17% in quarter three of FY 2025 and 8.25% in quarter four of FY 2024. Segment revenue from telecom products stood at 76% of total revenue in quarter four of FY 2025 as compared to 58% in quarter three of FY 2025 and 27% in quarter four of FY 2024.
With the strong order book, demand pickup, and full capacity utilization now, the company expects growth of 25%-30% in revenue from the last financial year to the current financial year on an overall basis with major growth starting from Q2. Looking at the current robust order book, capacity utilization retaining to full scale, strategic investments bearing fruit, and multiple global and domestic growth engines gaining momentum, especially in Optical fiber cable, defense, telecom, and data center connectivity solutions, we are confident of delivering a strong rebound in FY 2026. Our focus remains steadfast on innovation, global expansion, and suitable value creation for all stakeholders. Thank you very much for your continued support. Now, we are open to questions from any of you.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session.
Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchstone phone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Balasubramanian from Arihant Capital. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, sir. Thank you so much for taking my question. My first question related to exports. Exports revenue is around 12% of the sales. What are the strategies in place to retain global market share, especially in Europe and Southeast Asia? What is the impact of reciprocal tariffs imposed by the U.S.? How do you see exports side in the coming years?
Look, definitely, export is the Cornerstone of our strategy to increase revenue.
If you just look at one particular thing, minus China, if you exclude China, India would be probably 5%-7% of the world market in telecommunication. 95% market lies outside. If you have to grow, you have to go in exports. Like for example, fiber optic cable, we started exports. Last year was, and the year before that was subdued because global demand has gone down. But we have been performing very well in exports. This year again, we have started receiving a good amount of orders from exports. The market has shown a big uptrend, riding on the wave of hyperscale data centers where you need high fiber count cable. For example, telcos need fiber count up to 96 fiber mostly, and hyperscale starts from 864 fiber cable. So you can imagine what kind of difference it is.
With the increase in the demand outside India, particularly North America and to Europe also, mostly because of the data centers and fiber to home, we are concentrating quite heavily on export in fiber optic cable. We have started receiving orders which are, to some extent, I would say we did not expect in the beginning of the year. It is much more than that. Even to the extent that what we believe our expanded capacity of optical fiber, which we are expanding, which is almost completed with expansion by 100%, will also fall short of our requirement. We will have to still buy fiber from outside. Simultaneously, we are now focusing on export of telecom equipment also, which again had taken some downturn. Now we are proceeding again, created a separate organization for this telecom equipment export.
This year we expect that we should have a reasonable performance in the telecom equipment export also. Starting major items which will probably get exported would be Wi-Fi Access Points where we are now going in for Wi-Fi 7-based access points, switches, and also at the same point of time, fixed wireless access equipment which I discussed, followed by routers. Fiber optic cable and these are the equipment which we are concentrating on export. As far as fiber optic cable and passive connectivity solution attached with that are concerned, I think I am quite sure this year our exports would be in four figures. Your second question was what impact the reciprocal tariffs have. Now, look, right now the reciprocal tariff is at 10%. 10% has not meant much of difference for us.
It has been, most of the cases, been equally shared between us and the customers. I can say as demand from export has increased, margins have been also quite reasonable. This 5% decrease in the prices in some cases is not impacting much. It's not impacting much. We have to still watch for future, Nobody is sure it will remain 10% or it will go away. We have recommended to government from our side for optical fiber cable at least that you can have a zero tariff for import because nobody is going to import the fiber optic cable from the U.S. They are not doing that way. They are doing it as a basket for every product. If it remains around 10%, maybe goes up to 15%, I don't think we will have any significant impact on our exports.
Got it, Sir, my second question related to data centers. What is the difference between requirement from data center and DSP? And what kind of market on the global level and where we can focus in those data center areas? Sir, why I'm asking this question? Because earlier the demand is mostly related to telco cables. But data center can be the alternative for these cable requirements. You have also mentioned the higher hyperscale requirement for data centers. We have one of our competitors also mentioned about 25% of revenue from data center itself. I just want to understand your point of view on the data center side. Please share your input.
Look, data center demand has really fueled a very good growth in the demand of fiber optic cable. Data centers are mushrooming. Hyperscale data centers are mushrooming in all advanced countries.
In India also, it has started happening, but not to that scale as it is happening in the U.S. and some other countries. This is definitely an alternate opportunity for cable manufacturers to supply fiber optic cable. Not only fiber optic cable, we are at the same time doing the connectivity solutions which are required within the data center. The passive connectivity solutions as they are required in telcos are required in data centers also. The quality and the type is completely different. We are working on that also so that not only we export cable, but also passive connectivity solutions. Definitely, no doubt that data center has emerged at a good demand opportunity for fiber optic cable of higher count. Higher count means much higher prices also. I expect this is to continue for at least the next five years. It will stabilize.
The reason is simple. So much of use of artificial intelligence. Everybody is using artificial intelligence these days. All means data, More data means more storage, more cloud, more requirement, more capacity required. All hyperscale data centers are coming up, which one could not have imagined a few months back in the time AI came. This is a great alternate market opportunity which has opened up.
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Vaidik from Monarch Networks Capital Limited. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. I have two questions. Firstly, on the telecom side, I just wanted to know your views about the demand of FWA in India and in the international markets as well. Are we manufacturing FWA for India only or for other countries as well?
Okay, good, Fixed wireless access equipment is being in India and many other countries quite extensively. We are manufacturing for India, and now the new designs which we are doing is for international market also. I will tell you the difference. For India, of course, fixed wireless access would have a continuedly good demand because this provides optical fiber kind of a broadband connectivity over wireless. Taking fiber to home takes time, but on wireless, you can provide it on an immediate basis. The difference is consumed spectrum, which is costly, but in case of fiber, the laying down cost is very high. The operator has to choose which one to use. All Indian operators are using fixed wireless access equipment very heavily.
We have supplied, as I mentioned, by now almost 500,000 of that, or maybe more than 500,000 of that, and received a new order of 200,000 also, about INR 1.73 billion. We expect to receive more such orders in the current financial year. Now, for the export market, again, the difference is the particular spectrum you use for providing fixed wireless access. Different countries use different spectrum, different type of fixed wireless equipment. In India, we are using outdoor equipment, but in foreign countries, the advanced countries, mostly they use indoor equipment and a different spectrum also. Now the next generation of equipment which we are designing, and the pilot production is already on rather.
In some of the cases, samples also have been submitted to the customers for testing in their network where the frequency band is again the same which is being used in those countries. It is indoor version, not outdoor. In case of indoor version, what additionally you have to do is integrate with Wi-Fi. With outdoor version, Wi-Fi is inside the house because outdoor Wi-Fi will not work. Indoor Wi-Fi has to be included in the fixed wireless equipment itself. It has to be integrated within the fixed wireless equipment. Those versions are also ready. I think this year would be a year we should be able to start exporting this FWA equipment for different other countries also.
Okay, sir. The next question is on the defense side.
I just wanted to know what is our outlook on the demand for defense products in India and what role are we playing in the defense sector?
Look, outlook, I don't have to tell you because this last month or this month beginning, what happened across our borders, that itself tells you the kind of defense preparedness country needs to have to thwart the design of any enemy, whether from west or whether from north or any place. Really, Government has, in my personal opinion, awakened to the possibility that defense preparedness needs, which is good, but it needs to be a much higher level. That's why you read in newspaper, the emergency procurement funds are getting allotted. It is my opinion that budget for the defense forces definitely will have to be increased if we want to increase our preparedness.
Our forces are very brave, very brave. In fact, I will not be violating any confidentiality if I tell that even HFCL, 36 people from HFCL were present throughout the border from Udi to Udhampur, working on the NFS network for the Army, which is a dedicated network we have created to do any sort of a replacement if any portion of that network was hit by enemy forces. I am also happy to tell you we have received commendation letters from various army units for the kind of service our people have done. Various commendation letters, and you will be very pleased to know that the kind of language they have used praising our efforts, HFCL's efforts, that has been really, I am proud of that. Coming back, the demand of defense equipment is going to be definitely very high.
We are concentrating in a couple of areas. One, ground surveillance radars, which are going to be used for ground surveillance and also for coastal surveillance. Those have been tested by our team, and they are ready for sale now. This year, we expect revenue to start flowing in from surveillance radars. Second is night vision devices, which are also again indigenously designed like surveillance radars. Night vision devices, we participated in two tenders rather. One we won, one we could not. What we won is roughly about INR 450,000,000. The supply for that would also start in Q2. We have participated in a couple of more tenders for the same equipment, which results are still awaited. Supply for this equipment would start from Q2. Communication equipment, of course, which is our forte, we are working on those areas.
Electronic fuzes, which is one product. Again, HFCL is the only company which it has designed and which has its own IPR on that. Unfortunately, we could not be part of the last tender because there were some software issues noticed in our fuze, and they did not give us time to correct that, whereas we could have done it in a few days. Anyway, that's history three, four years back. Now, they have to be retried, retested. For that, we need ammunition, and ammunition needs to be supplied by government directly to DRDO. They had given us a six-month time, even with advance payment to supply of that ammunition. We paid about four or five months ago.
Now, they promised that supply would be made during the beginning of the next month, and then they would be tried by DRDO, which allotted a range in Balasore in Odisha to try that. I'm sure this small defect has already been rectified, which we have left it still. That would be one equipment which is huge for artillery guns. It has a huge demand, not only in India but worldwide. Worldwide, a huge demand opportunity for that. We keep on receiving inquiries every now and then for these kind of fuzes. Every now and then, we keep on receiving inquiries. Once that's tested in the month of June, we should be able to start marketing those equipment also. Because unfortunate part is we cannot test it ourselves. It requires a range where you can fire this artillery gun.
A range has to be some 18, 20, 30 kilometers. We cannot fire artillery guns by ourselves. It has to be tested by DRDO or the army itself. With that defect, whatever small defect was, it has been rectified. This is one product, which would be a golden product, I can assure you. We are designing that Drone Detection Radar, which should be in production in the current financial year itself. Right now, it is undergoing the final phase of software integration, and then the trial would start. That is another area we are working very closely. Also, now we have taken joint hands with DRDO, and taken a couple of technology transfers from them where the radio technology is being transferred to us. We will be manufacturing those equipment also.
One is, of course, battlefield radio equipment, and another is Multimode hand grenade. This would be the first time we will go in an ammunition area. That technology has also been approved by DRDO to be transferred to us. For multimode hand grenade, the trial production for approval, you have to produce 100 units and give it to them, and they will try it out, has already begun on our Hosur facility where we, as I said in my presentation, we have created a facility to manufacture defense equipment. Pilot production or trial production, you can say, has already started. These are the areas we are working in defense at the moment.
Got it, sir. Got it, sir. Thank you, sir. This is from my side.
Thank you, l adies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your questions to two per participant. We take the next question from the line of Rishabh Basa from Insect Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi. Am I audible?
Yeah. Yeah.
Hi. Thank you so much for the opportunity. So my question was regarding the optical fiber cable market. How long do we expect this trend to go upwards, and what kind of revenue growth are we expecting in FY 2026?
Look, as I said earlier in the earlier question, I think the next five years, the trend is going to be upwards, led by the US. Because the data centers are where they are mushrooming in the US is incredible.
It would be followed everywhere in the world because artificial intelligence, IoT, machine learning, all these are going to happen worldwide. You will see the progress on this computer and IT industry in the next five years, which you would not have seen in the last 25 years. The next five years is going to show you more development, more progress in this industry than what you saw in the last 25 years. A major contributor to that is artificial intelligence. When you work on your computer using artificial intelligence, how easy it becomes to work and how fast it becomes to work, you can understand. You know yourself, t hat all means more data, usage of more data because data is happening quickly. Hyperscalers are coming up worldwide. It's a mushroom growth.
This is going to lead to major creation of demand because of high-capacity cables required, 864 fiber, 1728 fiber, whereas telcos have been using 96 fiber, 48, 24 fiber. From data center application, at least next five years, at least next five years. As the data center application increases, the demand for transmitting and transporting data from one city to another city, one continent to another continent, one country to another country are also going to happen rapidly because they are complementary to each other. There would be increased demand from telcos also. When you want to use artificial intelligence kind of high-bandwidth requirement, more fiber-to-home connectivity would be required. Either it is going to be fixed wireless access like what I talked a little bit back, or it would be fiber optic connectivity.
In any case, demand of fiber optic cable would again be there, either for home connection or data center applications or intercity or intercountry requirement. At least for the next five years, this demand is going to keep on increasing. Of course, you have a requirement like rural connectivity where governments want to connect all the villages like in India, BharatNet program is happening. Those demands will be in addition.
Got it. Got it. Would it be possible to put a number on the growth for FY 2026?
Growth, as far as our company is concerned, again, this is a pure estimation based on our current demand, that growth potential. Last year, we had a very dismal performance of fiber optic cable because the worldwide demand had gone down. That was the situation with every manufacturer in the world, not only HFCL.
Our competitors or friends in our country, or if you take big companies like Corning, Sysme, and OFX, any company you take, they had a huge downturn in the revenue from fiber optic cable business. Now, this year, again, it's the revenue of INR 1,100 crore last year. With all humbleness, I can say, with the kind of orders we are receiving from data centers, telcos locally, exports, I am of the opinion that we will grow by at least 100% this year as compared to last year, 100%. This is not a guidance. Please note, this is not a guidance. I am giving purely this number from my present knowledge and the kind of order book we are creating. I am quite certain. I expect that this year, our revenue from data is this fiber optic cable and associated business is going to grow by about 100%.
Got it, Got it. Thank you so much.
Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Kriti Tripathi from NVS Brokerage. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. So my first question is on the margins. As you said, that you expect a revenue growth of 25%-30% in terms of revenue for FY 2026. How should we think about the margin trend, and can we expect the FHI and PAC margins to remain in line with FY 2025, which was around 7% for PAC, I believe? Apart from yeah, yeah.
In terms of percentage, I think it will remain around stable, around the percentage what we have in FY 2025. I do not say that they would increase dramatically or significantly. I am not giving any such guidance, but I think it will remain steady what we have in FY 2025.
Because this particular year, it had gone down drastically because of low revenue. And for the reasons which I explained, that why the revenue was low. But what was in FY 2025, I think we should be able to maintain that.
Okay. So one of the FY 2024 figures of PAC margin, right? In FY 2024, the consolidated PAC was around 7%. In FY 2025, it was around 4%. So that is what we expect in the current year, right, sir?
No, no. What I'm saying is EBITDA margin of what was there, not in FY 2025. So I'm talking of FY 2024.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Understood.
I missed out the year. This year was negative margins and all that. For FY 2024, what margins we had, we would remain stable around those margins.
Sure. And sir, the next question is on the CapEx side. C an you say, can you give it what would be CapEx outlay for the current year, and what would be the areas of focus of the same?
Look, CapEx outlay, we are right now, there is no major CapEx outlay, which is apart from what we are already doing in optical fiber and optical fiber cable business, which has already been approved, planned, and all done. There are two kinds of CapEx, which is in offering in optical fiber and optical fiber cable business, which is expansion of capacity, particularly for newer kinds of cables which are required in data center and those kinds of applications, which is we have already placed orders for machinery import. We have opened LCs and all that. The total expenditure which is going to be made is around INR 138 crore .
Now, the way that we are receiving demands and getting orders, my team has come back and told me we need more expansion. We have not planned for that right now. To some of my customers, I have told, "I would only do more expansion if you give me a three-year contract. Otherwise, why should I put my money right now on the basis of current demand only? If you give me three years requirement, then possibly I can do more." Yes, INR 138 crore is being spent on this expansion of fiber optic cable manufacturing facility over and above what we already have. The second area of CapEx, some CapEx could be the defense, where manufacturing facility we have already created, but certain amount of test equipment, testing, pilot production are always required. Some amount of CapEx would be required in defense equipment business also.
That may be not much. That may be something around INR 500 million or so. It will not be much. Maybe around INR 500 million.
Okay, sir. That's it from my side, Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Balasubramanian from Arihant Capital. Please go ahead.
Thank you, sir. Sir, what's the current scenario on the inventory levels for global operator levels, and what's the price range for optical fiber and optical fiber cables?
Look, inventory is one of the reasons, one of the reasons why the market was sluggish for two years because people had built up huge inventories. Two years back, if you see, fiber optic cable market was booming like anything. There was no delivery available. U.S. delivery was 52 weeks. People accumulated a lot of stock with the expectation that market would remain like that.
Downturn in demand of China and lower demand in rest of the world, at that time data centers, hyperscalers were not there as much. What happened, the built-up inventory consumption took a lot of time. That is why the fresh demand was very low. Now what has happened, that inventory is no longer there. It has been consumed in the last almost two years. New demand opportunity has come up like hyperscale data centers and all that and fiber to home and all that. As a result of that, now there is no such inventory left with the operators or data center providers. There is no such inventory left. That is why you see the huge increase in the demand of fiber optic cable. As I said, I think it will continue for at least five years.
This year, because of this kind of a demand, we expect to double our revenue from fiber optic cable business.
Sir, secondly on that optical fiber and optical fiber.
Sorry to interrupt.
Let him continue this one.
Okay.
Sir, optical fiber and optical fiber cable pricing and average area.
I will tell you. I think I will tell you. Yeah. Fiber optic cable, the price which was coming to be around INR 840 per fiber kilometer for cable is now around INR 905, INR 905 per fiber kilometer. The fiber price, which was around INR 266 on 31st December 2024, is around INR 259 right now, So very marginal difference. While cable prices have gone up a bit per fiber kilometer, fiber price has gone down a bit. But again, these are very marginal changes. There are not much of changes. It remains almost stable between December and March.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Giriraj Daga from Visarya Family Trust. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hello team. So my first question is regarding our order book. So we have roughly mentioned about INR 10,000 crore of order book. When I look at the presentation, we have given the breakup between network service, ONM, and products. And one segment was the government and the private. What I would look out for is that can we have the breakup between what you are mentioning between what is the OFC, optical fiber, and optical fiber cable related order book? Second would be how much is the turnkey order book?
I can give you the breakup. I can give you the breakup. You are doing further for that.
The demand from telecom products, I would say telecom products, which includes optical fiber cable, routers, and everything, is roughly about INR 2,227 crore, out of which 50% is optical fiber cable, 50% is other telecom equipment, which includes, as I said a little while ago, INR 800 crore from routers, about INR 200 crore from fixed wireless access, customer premise equipment, optical transport network, and Wi-Fi equipment. This is about INR 2,200 crore. Then roughly about INR 4,000 crore would be from turnkey EPC solutions, EPC. EPC would be INR 6,000 crore, which includes orders which we have received from BharatNet, of course, which includes orders from Jeo, which includes orders from various other projects, different different other projects. It is about INR 4,000 crore. Here, we are very cautious in taking orders in EPC.
Only those orders we take where we expect the payments to be made in time and not based on milestones which are not under our control. Because customer may delay, but if it is milestone-based, I do not get paid, which happened in NFX in our case, which I am very unhappy about. Though Army is praising our network so much, at the same point of time, we are not getting paid because of non-completion of milestones, which is not my fault, which is the fault of either BSNL or ARMY itself. We are taking orders only those orders which are under our control in milestone and where the payment is quick. Recently, I would not name the customer. I refused an order which could have been more than INR 20 billion for EPCs, more than INR 20 billion. I refused.
I was not sure about payments, when would they come, and when would I be able to do that cable laying because things were under not my control. We refused INR 2,000 crore order. I refused INR 2,400 crore order. I just refused. I did not take.
Understood. That makes INR 4,000 crore turnkey and telecom is INR 2,200 crore, INR 22,000 crore.
Yeah. ONM is roughly about, it would be INR 3,675 crore. The difference is INR 1,000 crore. BharatNet is about INR 1,600 crore. Different other projects put together would be INR 700-800 crore, which is good. Such kind of an order book for ONM is very good because then you start receiving yearly revenues, which are annuity kind of revenues. ONM profitability is a bit better than normal profitability in your normal business in supply because it's more of a service business rather than supply.
This kind of an order book for ONM is, I think, I feel pretty happy about.
ONM is like what, 10 years or 15 years kind of an?
Depends upon it starts from 7 years, goes up to 10 years.
7-10 years. Any particular reason for this quarter very weak performance in a turnkey contract?
Look, it's again customer dependent. In some cases, customers changed sides, and in some cases, they wanted to go a bit slow because of their own reasons. It was mostly because of reasons from the customer side. Some of the orders, which we did not take because of payment situation, we were not certain about. The major reason was that only. This year, it improved because BharatNet, where the payment conditions are good, they are going ahead.
I think private telcos should also increase their EPC orders, which last year was practically one-fourth of what it used to be earlier, one-fourth. This year, I think it should become better. BharatNet should also give us reasonably good revenue, which was not there at all last year. This year, there should be some middle three-figure revenue coming up from that also. This year, it should become better. Again, as I said, we are very selective about EPC orders.
Understood. In segment reporting, we mentioned telecom products. Where do we account for the defense? Is it part of the telecom products only? Any revenue in defense products?
Defense, last year, you find that there was hardly any revenue from defense products. It is not anywhere. When we report it, we will report it separately.
Okay, This year, probably it's likely that we will have a separate classification.
Definitely. As I said just now, we will be starting delivering one of the products from Q1, no, sorry, Q2, Q2. Both products, two products, we will be starting delivering from Q2. Definitely, it would be reported separately. In Q2, we will be starting manufacture, sorry, supply of those equipment.
Okay. Last question on the CapEx. You mentioned about INR 138 crore. Was it placed order? Was it part of FY 2025 payment, or will it be part of FY 2026 payment, INR 138 crore?
Yeah. This would be this year because we have placed orders. Machineries are yet to be delivered. Some advance has been paid, some 5% or so. The advance has been paid of this INR 138 crore. The rest of them, LC has been opened.
When the shipment takes place, of course, at that point of time, we will be paying for that. Those are very essential equipment in a sense that when I talk of 100% additional turnover revenue this year, those machines are part of it because those machines are for specifically new types of fiber optic cable which are required. I hope any of you would like to visit our factories in Hyderabad, where you can see these new machines and expansion and fiber and fiber optic cable production. Those are the machines which are required, where the payment would be once, apart from the advance which is given, which is 5%. That also we give against bank guarantee. Those are all reputed companies, bank guarantee or no bank guarantee. Those payments should be made in the current year.
Thank you, We take the next question from the line of Dipesh Sanchetti from Manya Finance. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Am I audible?
Yeah. You are audible. Manya is audible.
Yes, sir. Sir, I want to know about how much time would this transition period you said that we are going through a transition phase. How much time, according to you, would take then? When will we see that parabolic growth which we all have been waiting for?
Yeah. I think this transition phase, we say, you can say quarter one maximum this quarter. And quarter? Start showing much better results, improvement. Quarter three would be even better. Fourth should even be better. This is all, again, I say, not a guidance based on my best of my opinion and expectation. This transition phase should last in quarter one. That's it.
Because many of the orders which we receive, we start delivering from quarter two. This higher fiber optic cable, these new machines arrived, and then we start dispatching those machines. Current machines will give 100% output. Fiber is already giving 100% output. Rather, fiber optic cable now, they will also give 100% output from July onward. Though it can happen from June, but I'll let us say July. In June, it may be 80-90%. Further increase in revenue would happen once these new machines for which LCs have been opened would arrive. There would be further increase in revenue with those machines. That is why I see the transition period.
With all this capacity utilization, improving orders for new orders of supply of fixed wireless access equipment, implementation of the BharatNet project, starting supply of routers and all those kind of equipment, this all would mean that this transition period would end in this quarter.
Great. Great. Also, when you mentioned about the order book, whether it is telecom products or EPC or ONM, we will maintain a similar margin profile? I mean, will we have a similar 15% margin on EBITDA margin on everything, or will it be different?
Look, it depends from different products, from different times. I cannot, again, say that X product will always have XY margin because it becomes, again, customer to customer, quantity to quantity, time to time. One customer on optical fiber cable may give you 10% net margin. Other can give you 20% net margin.
Or the third one can give you only 5% net margin. Somebody like Reliance, for example. They will not give you more than 5%. They know the cost of every raw material, and they add it together and add your 5% and give you the order.
Right.
You know how they function. It goes from 5%-20% from different people, different companies to different customers. Yes, some of the customers will give low margin, but they make payment quite fast. Like Reliance as an example, low margin but quick payment. Fine, you are not worried about low margin. You have working capital. Work is much faster.
Right. Very, very much, I mean, very exciting to hear about drone detection and fuses. What is the progress on drone detection?
Also, the fuzes, you mentioned that you already paid for the artillery to the DRDO, and you're expecting results by around Q2. Is that the right timeline? What about drone detection? I mean, especially if you can throw some light onto drone detection.
Let me talk on the drone detection. That is in the final stage of software integration, software hardware integration that is happening. Lab trials are happening. I think in two to three months' time, we will take it for field trials. Once the field trials, you will find some bugs and all that always happens. It would be iteration would be there. In this year itself, we would start production of those Drone Detection Radar.
Another thing which we are doing, which I did not mention in my presentation, though, is talking to our possible partners who have the soft kill option. Soft kill means you neutralize the drone either by jamming his GPS or blocking his frequency. That frequency which is operating, so he loses communication with his command center, and it falls down. GPS and both jamming can take place. That's why it is called soft kill. It's not a gun or a bullet or a laser. It's a kill by jamming the spectrum or GPS. We are talking to a possible partner. When we integrate, which will take some time, when we integrate our radar and the soft kill option, the demand would become even better. Right now, it is radar, but there is going to be a huge demand opportunity for radar also for detecting incoming drones.
This beginning of this month, we have seen why do we need to detect the drones, how they come, hundreds and hundreds of they come. Detection becomes absolutely critical. The radar we have designed, it can detect a single radar can detect 100 drones at one single point of time. Maybe 1-centimeter drone, 1-centimeter-length drone, which is a very micro drone, that also would be detected by this radar.
Wow, That will be very exciting, sir. Thank you so much, sir. This is all the questions I had. Thank you so much. All the very best for ahead.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Hardik Vyas from EP. Please go ahead.
Sir, I had a couple of questions. The first one being, what is the status on the BNP upgrade that we were thinking about in the previous quarter?
Yeah, Look, this RFP is due on 1st July. 1st July, the RFP is due. It was due earlier in May, but they postponed it. Now it is due on 1st July. We will definitely be participating in that. It is on 1st July. We are waiting for the date to come and to participate. As you know, five companies are shortlisted: TATA, L&T, Governments, AVNL, ourselves, and one of the companies, I forget the name, where Adani also has got equity. I am forgetting the name. There are the five companies shortlisted. In the UTTR, the user trial which had happened, readiness trial, our BNP, modified BNP functioned the best. Now, of course, the RFP would be tender would be there where we have to participate. Who becomes L1, depending upon that, order would be placed.
Right now, the current date of submission of tender is 1 July.
Okay. Sir, what would be the possible size of the order if we get it?
If I tell you the size, then I'm diverging my tender details. Surprise, I'm going to.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Not a problem. Sir, the second question is about the NATO order that we were likely to get from some. That's for.
The problem that happened is this delay in DRDO trial, which is I paid money six months back, and with 70 or 80 shells of ammunition, our Munition India Limited, not DRDO. This is Munition India Limited, which is a government company, has not supplied till today. I don't want to say negative about government companies, but you can imagine what I'm trying to say.
Okay. Okay. Is it likely in the near future, or will it take a little more time?
They are now promising June.
June. Okay. My last question is for the Drone Detection Radar and other defense products that we are developing and probably from the second quarter will have contribution in the revenue. What is the opportunity on the export front for these same products that we are going to sell?
It is a reasonably good opportunity. For fuses, for example, I am receiving inquiries every now and then from different countries. I received another inquiry just three days ago for 20,000 fuses. Just three days ago. We are receiving inquiries from a number of countries. This is a huge opportunity for export of fuses for artillery guns, particularly 155 proximity fuse. Everybody wants that.
The unfortunate part is, as I mentioned, our own fault, default in our country that you are not able to get 70 pieces of ammunition to fire, whereas military must be firing during this war, 700 pieces every minute.
Yes. Okay. Okay, sir. The last question is, sir, for our EPC business that we did in FY 2024, not FY 2025. So we would be replicating back those numbers for this financial year? FY 2025 was a washout.
I'm not giving any guidance. Not giving any guidance. To the best of my knowledge and order book which we have, it would be somewhere between INR 1,200 crore-INR 1,500 crore.
Okay. Thank you so much, sir. All the best.
Thank you. Thank you, Hardik.
Participants in the conference are requested to limit themselves to one question at a time.
I repeat, participants in the conference, please limit your question to one per participant. We take the next question from the line of Lakshmi Narayan from K. Sema Wealth Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Are you able to hear me?
Yeah. We can hear you, Lakshmi Narayan.
Sir, you have said you are riding for 100% revenue growth. Could you just say from which segment would be the driver? Also, could you put a number on the same, sir?
Lakshmi Narayan, let me be very clear. I said 100% growth in fiber optic cable and associated business, not on the overall business.
Okay.
Was just limited to fiber optic cable and associated, like passive connectivity solutions and all that. This is from different varieties of customers: indigenous, export, data center, drop cable, normal cable, and those kind of things.
Sir, if telecom product comes whole, what would be your expectation? Is it possible to put a number?
Telecom equipment business.
Yeah. Telecom products as well.
Again, Lakshmi Narayan, this is no guidance. This is just based on my current orders and expectations of orders which we have. I would, again, say something like INR 1,200 crore-INR 1,500 crore.
Sure. That's a good estimate.
I'm not giving any guidance. Don't take any of the number I've given as a guidance. These are my estimation based on my current order book and expected orders.
Sure, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you, Navra. I thank you, all of you who have come and attended this call.
I can, again, assure you that though the last quarter of the last year was not the same as we had desired, as it was a period where optical fiber cable demand was very low, at the same point of time, EPC operators and the customers decided to shift size or remain quiet for some time, and also macroeconomic situation around the globe. This transition period, as I also said, should, to the best of my estimation, end after the current quarter. In Q2, we should start picking up revenue from defense equipment business significantly. At the same point of time, we should also start getting revenue from new products like routers. It's a new product, but it could be about an order of INR 8,000,000,000.
With this increase in revenue from defense, fiber optic cable, major increase in fiber optic cable, start of revenue from defense segment, then EPC revenue coming up, including from the BharatNet program. I also expect BharatNet, whatever has happened till now, is not the end. State-led models for seven or eight states are still to come up. Once that comes up, I believe the company should get reasonably good orders from that segment also. Till now, what orders we have got from BharatNet is roughly about INR 4,800 crore. Those are the 13 circuits. We expect more from these 13 circuits, of course. From the upcoming tenders for different states which have not yet come, again, we expect good size of orders to come to the company. There would be real good rebound in FY 2026. Fiber optic cable, as I said, should see 100% progress.
As also I mentioned for other areas also. I look forward with good optimism for FY 2026. Every sector company has this kind of a transitional period because of demand situations in the sector and the worldwide demand. When you're quite dependent on exports, that kind of a situation. It improves rapidly also, which has happened in our case because of mushrooming of data centers and renewed demand from telecom operators. Thank you very much. Look forward to next year in 2026. Thank you very much. Thanks to all of you.
On behalf of ICICI Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.