I just want to be sure, for the sake of completeness, that we read this out. Certain statements in this meeting with regard to our future growth prospects are forward-looking statements, which involve a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those in such forward-looking statements, okay? With that, I'll invite Anish to start with his opening remarks.
Good afternoon, everyone, and good morning and good evening to folks who are joining us online as well. Pleasure to have you all with us here today, and it's a great pleasure for us to talk about our FY 2024 results. Again, we've delivered what we committed and, in fact, much more, as you will see. So let's talk about the key messages to start with. Strong performance overall. On a standalone basis, our PAT is up 48%. On a consolidated basis, it's up 25%. We have excluded a few one-offs from last year, which I will talk about. This is despite challenges. You see the challenges on the farm sector and the industry being down last year, and Tech Mahindra, where profits were down 52%.
But despite that, across the group, we've just seen our businesses come together to deliver an outstanding performance overall. Beyond numbers, we've done a lot in terms of what we call living our purpose, because that's important for us. On the sustainability front, we've always focused on tangible results, and we prefer to talk about things after we've actually achieved something meaningful. But what you see here is the auto and farm business overall have achieved EP 100. Auto is at 120, farm is slightly below 100. Collectively, they are over 100. What does EP1 00 mean? Energy productivity. This was a target we had for 2030. We've achieved it six years prior.
The implication of this is that we need half the amount of energy to produce the equivalent number of vehicles, whether it's automobiles or tractors, than we did at a baseline in 2009. So over the last 15 years, there have been a number of different projects that have been done to help achieve this, and this is, in many ways, much more meaningful than talking about where energy comes from, because one can talk about renewable energy being greener and cleaner than fossil fuel, but in this case, we've eliminated half the energy used, so you don't need to use energy at all. And that enables, again, a much better path to net zero, and that's what our businesses have achieved. We are a water-positive group, have been there for a while, so just highlighting that again.
Beyond that, just a number of things that have happened. On Investor Day, we'll give you a deeper view on all the actions that have been taking place in sustainability and why that's such an important area for us. Women empowerment is another key area. We've had the Nanhi Kali program for educating the girl child for over 25 years. Over the last two or three years, we started focusing on skilling of women from a woman empowerment standpoint and providing jobs. We provided jobs to over 200,000 women in the last year. Our target is to get to 1 million a year, which we will, and we'll again talk more about that when we go to an in-depth session at Investor Day. There's meaningful progress on being future-ready. Our talent pipeline is outstanding.
We've been able to attract talent from any of the companies we wanted across the world, and we've got some very strong talent in the group. We've created talent programs at the entry level, mid-level, senior level, and these are programs that would stack up or, in my view, be potentially better than what we've seen in companies across the world. In many cases, with strong support from leading universities around the world as well. Beyond that, we've launched a newer version of our Mahindra Leaders program, which takes in top talent from MBA schools. We've been very selective in going only to the top five schools, and within there, taking only the top talent that's available in a program that actually gives them the choice of being in consulting or investment banking or in a business where you can look across 20 industries.
So it's something that's very appealing, and it's structured in a way that can give them a career acceleration as well. Technology, we've been an early adopter across many technologies. We've talked to you earlier about metaverse and what we've done across the group. In Gen AI, there are a number of applications across different industries that have helped us either reduce cost or improve customer experience. And again, we will delve into this in a lot of detail on Investor Day and show you how we're using Gen AI across the different businesses. So on financial performance, standalone, as I mentioned, there was a one-time last year, which was an impairment for trucks and buses, and that's something we've taken out as a one -time. If we don't take that out, standalone would have been up 64%, not 48%.
On the consolidated side, we had gains from Swaraj Engines, the listed entity where when we bought shares from Kirloskar, the entity was revalued, and therefore, we had gains last year. We similarly had gains from Susten, when we sold stake to Ontario Teachers, and we had the trucks and buses impairment. So those three, we've excluded. Excluding that, consolidated is up 25%. What's driving it? Auto and farm are the key drivers of this growth right now, up 54%. Yes, primarily auto at this point, given where the farm industry has been, but the farm business also has done very well in terms of maintaining margins, increasing market share, and therefore actually showing higher profits than the prior year in a tough industry. Tech Mahindra has been a weak spot.
A number of actions have been taken to set the business on a strong path going forward. Some of you may have heard Mohit Joshi's commentary on the path for the next three years, and it will take a 2- to 3-year time period for the full turnaround, but there's a clear path that has been outlined. The impact for this year was negative, where profit was down 52% from the prior year, but that's something that we see recovering very well over the next 2-3 years, and moving on a path where we can even build an even stronger business than we've had before. Mahindra Finance has actually performed outstandingly well.
It's hidden a little in the realm of the fraud that was uncovered, and let me cover the fraud first, which is something that happened in the Aizawl branch in Mizoram, where we had collusion of at least about 20 people, 11 having been arrested so far already. Dealers were part of the collusion as well. Collections agents were part of the collusion as well, and that resulted in the fraud not being picked up. What we've done since then is first, we had to go and do a deep dive on every single loan in the portfolio to ensure there was no other fraud anywhere else, and that was a very detailed exercise. And literally in 3-5 days, we had to go through 10 lakh customers and prove to the auditors that there's no fraud anywhere else.
And that's what the team did, and then that, again, talks a lot about the controls that are there in the business today. We have also put in an even stronger control mechanism to prevent potential collusion fraud that can occur in future by centralizing certain key checker responsibilities, as you have a maker and checker responsibility, and putting in place certain data tracking elements that will help us get there. But yes, that was a negative for us, INR 136 crore provision, a pretty significant one at that, that had to be taken. And that overshadowed some of the key highlights for that business, which is it has reached INR 100,000 crore of assets under management.
Assets under management grew at 24%, in a year that has seen interest rates go up, in a year where we cut back on certain segments and did not lend to them because we wanted to improve asset quality, and therefore, even more importantly, asset quality is up, significantly, and you see the GS3 numbers having come down to 3.4% now. Credit losses are well within the range that had been promised as well for the quarter, as well as for the year. So overall, it's been a very strong performance in Mahindra Finance. There's been a lot of work on technology and data. That is something that will start reaping results. I still say that we are halfway through the turnaround there. We are one and a half years into the turnaround.
In another one and a half years, we expect the technology to be fully deployed, the data analytic tools to be fully deployed, and Mahindra Finance will really stand out as a leader in its space. Growth Gems continue to do well, and while you see income up here, 6%, there are a few things that have been driving it. A number of things on the positive. Logistics has been one negative, and you've heard the details on logistics, which is essentially driven by the express business, and as a result, there was a loss in logistics of INR 55 crore for the year. That is, again, well handled now. Execution has improved significantly, and what we are seeing now is a much stronger year for logistics in FY 2025.
But in FY 2024, we had to take some of the hits from there. Susten has won 2 GW of bids, which will now get translated into developing these utility plants. 2 GW compares to 1.6 that Susten has done in 14 years prior to that. So we've done all of that and more in one year. And we had talked about a 5x plan for Susten. Susten... The Susten team is now talking about, "Can we go to 7x or potentially even 10x over the next five years?" Just looking at what has been delivered in the last year. Real Estate continues to be strong. Last Mile Mobility continues to be strong. Hospitality is on a very strong track. So we've got many of our Growth Gems delivering at a very high rate now.
As we think about auto and farm, while Rajesh will cover it in detail, the key highlights are, we continue to be the number one SUV player. Revenue is up 36%. LCV, something we don't talk about as much, is at a 49%+ market share, and that has gained 350 basis points. A continued strong margin performance in it as well, which results in auto profits alone of INR 4,700 crore, up 2.5 times. On the farm side, resilient is a primary word that I would use. Oja is a great launch for the future. It's a great product in multiple markets in the U.S., in Southeast Asia, in parts of India, and that really positions the business very well for future growth and strong cash generation. As I said earlier, profits are also up.
Yes, up only 2%, but the operative word is up and not down. Mahindra Finance, I talked about in detail, so I'm going to skip it here, except for one comment, which is: while you see profit down 11%, Mahindra Finance had significant write-backs the previous year because of reduction in GS3, and that is what had really driven it. This is a number that is essentially on budget for us, and is reflective of the strong performance of Mahindra Finance, despite the write-backs that we had in the previous year. Tech Mahindra, I've talked about, so I shall skip that here. And then Growth Gems, logistics, EBITDA margin is up 25 basis points, revenue is up 7%, but offset by the performance on the express side. Hospitality continues to do well.
It's a business that has a lot more potential. So the primary thing for the hospitality business is, yes, it's doing well, but we can do a lot more, and that's part of what we will drive. And Real Estate, good momentum, highest-ever residential sales, and more importantly, a 4x increase in the land that has been acquired for future growth. So what does this mean from a cash standpoint? We started the year with INR 15,000 crore of cash, and I'm going to highlight a few key points here, and then if, as you have more questions, we'll go into details. We've generated operating cash of INR 15,000 crore. CapEx was INR 5,000 crore. In addition to that, EV CapEx was INR 3,000 crore.
ICDs that we funded to the group companies is a very small amount, but we've repaid INR 3,500 crore of debt, essentially become almost close to zero debt. There's some long-term debt that could not be prepaid, and which is why it's there, but that's a very, very small amount now. After the dividend payout, we're closing at INR 17,600 crore of cash. Very healthy cash balance. Continues the focus we've had on capital allocation, the discipline we've had, as I've always said, that shall continue, that shall not go away, and you see that in these numbers here. We have talked about FY 20 22 to FY 2024 in the past, and we've showed you projections over the past couple of years on these, on this three-year window.
This is the final look at the three-year window in terms of where we ended up. Operating cash across auto, farm, and services was INR 37,000 crore. As we promised to you in the past, we are breaking it out across all three verticals, so you can see that transparently, saying, "This is what has been happening." Some of you, or many of you in the past, have said, "We don't like the fact that you're using auto and farm cash for things outside auto and farm." This is a transparent look at the fact that we are not using auto and farm cash for something outside auto and farm. Deployment total is INR 17,500 crore, and you see that across the various aspects, leaving a net cash generation of INR 19,700 crore over this three-year period.
The thing that I want to highlight, and I feel the happiest about on this chart, is that services has generated INR 7,000 crore of cash. So let's leave aside auto and farm cash not being used for services. Services has generated more cash than auto. It has generated more cash than farm. And that's the reason why we're investing in our Growth Gems, because that's part of what we want to be able to achieve in terms of the cash generation. So it's not just accounting numbers. You see this here in pure cash. And you asked for this before, and we had promised we would deliver our forecast for the next three years.
You do see a significant jump in deployment, which is reflective of the significant jump in the size of the business, and, and our aspirations and our revenue and our revenue growth that, that, we would want. What you therefore see is a INR 37,000 crore deployment over the next five years. Let's look at the details here. For auto, it will take a bulk of that, which is INR 20,000 crore. EV is INR 12,000 crore, but we are not giving up on ICE. ICE is still very important, and ICE is going to continue to be a mainstay for the next few years, and therefore, ICE will continue to get INR 14,000 crore of CapEx in this time period. More importantly, all of the funding required for auto will be self-funded by auto.
And which is the reason why, we even talked with our partners who funded our electric business. BII has already put in INR 1,200 crore. Temasek has put in INR 300, and they will put in their additional INR 900 to hit INR 1,200. But beyond that, we had an additional INR 725 crore tranche from BII. So we've talked to them and said, "Hey, we don't really need this. Do you really want to put it in? Let's decide mutually, if this makes sense." And over the next seven months, we'll assess whether it makes sense, and it's a small number, so either way, it doesn't matter from our standpoint. But the primary point is that we've got INR 27,000 crore outlined for auto, and that cash will be generated within the auto segment alone.
For farm, we've got INR 5,000 crore that we've outlined right now, again, driving some of the growth in the farm business. It will obviously generate a lot more cash than that, as you've seen in the past. Services, again, we've outlined INR 5,000 crore right now. As Mahindra Finance grows, it will need capital to fund its growth, but beyond that, our Growth Gems are doing well, and we will put more capital there. Here again, we expect it to generate a lot more cash than the INR 5,000 crore we're going to use. So this again, will be self-funding. It will not be auto and farm cash coming into services. None of this includes acquisitions. I know your question is going to be: What are your plans for acquisitions?
Our plans for acquisitions are still consistent with what we've done so far, which is where it makes sense and where we feel we can deliver results from there, we will look at acquisitions. We will be very prudent on that. The bar is extremely high, and, something we are not ruling out, something that we are looking at actively, and we will leverage that as one of the tools for our growth. So I'll end with this slide before inviting Rajesh Jejurikar . What's important for us is consistent delivery on our commitments. We had committed to 18% ROE. We continue to maintain that. We had committed to a 15%-20% growth in EPS. At this point, we are at an 84, at an 84% CAGR on an annualized basis since FY 2021, which is when we made that commitment.
So we are tracking pretty well on this. Does not mean you factor 84% for the next year in terms of growth, just, just leaving that, as well. But, it's essentially something that we feel good about, and we will continue to track that. With that, Rajesh, over to you.
Hi, good evening, and good morning to people around the world, probably in the US. I'm gonna quickly run through my slides so we have enough time for questions. I think you have most of the information by now. On the automotive business, a quick look at the numbers, you see them here. In the quarter, we grew volume 14%, and the revenue market share was up, likewise for the year. We've seen a big upward trajectory in our SUV business, reflecting the success of many of our current and new products and current products continuing to do well. That's led to improvement in the revenue market share over a period of time. The booking number as at this point of time stands at 220,000.
This is now upgraded or updated to only add the first hour of XUV 3XO, which is 50,000. We are not going to share an hourly update on what the booking number is. It is going up, and it will keep going up, but we're not gonna give an hourly update on, "Okay, it's like this now, and it's so and so tomorrow morning." But it's a tremendous and positive response to the XUV 3XO. We think there's an opportunity to be a clear number one or number two in this segment. The size of the SUV market in FY 2024 was 2,500,000. We believe the relevant industry in which the XUV 3XO can play is between 600,000-900,000 per year, depending on who you count in.
In the 6 lakh target market, we are number five player. In the 9 lakh target market, we are number six player, with the XUV300. With the 3XO, we believe we have a very, very strong right to win and a very strong proposition. Many of these are, this is straight out of the presentation on 29th when we launched the product. But today, we hear this back from customers, and I think some of you have been out there, checked our product out. There's also the product on the first floor, if any of you got a chance to see that. And we actually hear customers playing back very, very similar words to what we had put out on the slide on the 29th. We also got very good reviews from media.
And all the reviews have been very positive and reinforcing this very strong value proposition, that allows us to get upgrades and also allows us to create a new segment at the higher end. That's led to this 50,000 booking in the first 60 minutes and very strong momentum, even on weekdays in showrooms, as we are talking to our colleagues, you know, through last evening, today as well. So we continue to see very, very strong bookings and momentum. I'll play an AV for you, which is kind of the new ad with a little less of each and a little some people in it. So take a quick look.
The Mahindra XUV 3XO, everything about it.
As Anish said, on the LCV side, we've continued to see strong growth in market share. The industry has been slow for the last year, was a negative growth. We grew through market share gain. The Last Mile Mobility business, we sold over 100,000 vehicles last year. The electric three-wheelers grew four times in the last two years, and we continue to have a strong market share. You know, there are a lot of questions on what is the impact of competition coming in. Competition is good for the category, we believe. The category penetration is only 11%. This category has the best chance to electrify right now because of a very strong value proposition for customers.
We believe the more players that come in, there's a greater opportunity to electrify faster, and, that will have some impact on market share, downward. But we think it will, fuel the pace of growth momentum in the category, which is really what's very, very important. We've launched the Treo metal body, which has got also very good response. These are numbers you're familiar with, so I'm just quickly going through them. A very strong profit growth, both in the quarter and the year, and a very strong margin performance as well.
This is just recapping some of the commitments that we had made, saying, you know, the kind of margin that we could get to, in what we had called the medium term, and we could, you can see we got to that pretty quickly. This is an update on our commitments. Again, I will do this very quickly because you're familiar with a lot of this, I've spoken about. These are the commitments we had made a couple of years back by when we'll get to 2025. This is what is an update on that, and we think we're doing very well on most of the commitments that we had made for 2025. What next? We're looking at 9 ICE SUVs.
Three of these will be mid-cycle refreshes, six will be all new, and seven Born Electric vehicles by 2030. Seven LCVs, out of which two will be electric. So it's a strong portfolio in the making. As Anish said, reinforcing again, ICE is very important. We stay very invested in updating our ICE portfolio. As we've said in the past, we won't share details of ICE because it does create confusion in the market and fear of cannibalizing our current portfolio, so we don't share details of what we're doing in the ICE space. But this is just to reconfirm that we're investing very strongly. We said we'll share the capacity plans in this meeting, and that's what we're doing here. We exited March at 49,000 capacity.
By end of FY 25, we should be at 64. The breakup of 64 increase, which is the 15,000 number, is 5,000 between Thar 5-door and XUV 3XO, and 10,000, which would be the first lot of the Born Electric capacity. The next 64-72 is the additional 8,000 Born Electric capacity that will come up, and as you can see, this is a 3.5 times increase in capacity over where we were in FY 20. This is a breakup of the investments. Anish spoke about the INR 27,000 crore number, broken up as SUV ICE, INR 8,500 crore; CVs, including trucks and buses, and the electric CVs, is INR 4,000 crore; Susten is INR 1,500 crore; investment in MEAL is INR 12,000 crore, and INR 1,000 crore for investment in other subsidiaries.
Yeah, I'm just leaving that for a second. We can come back to this if there are more questions. On the farm side, it was a difficult quarter for the industry. We knew it because of festival season shift. We knew, we knew that the quarter is gonna be negative, and it was. We had also said we'll correct some stock, which we did, which is why you see a market share going down. For those of you who track us closely, it did go back in April to 46%. So, we had to make the correction as we ended March. There's some correction still to be done, but that's very small, and we'll smoothen that out, but we didn't need to do a one-time correction on our dealer stocks.
20-30 horsepower segment, September to March, we gained 12.8 share points through the launch of Oja and Target. And that has helped us to gain overall tractor market share. Farm revenue, we grew 32% in the year. I think it's... We had said we hope to do more, but this category, too, has seen pressure from given the overall environment amongst agriculture and tractors. So in the context of a industry slowdown, we think a 32% number here is good. We are very well set, strengthening our position in multiple product categories in the Farm Machinery segment, and we are looking at, again, a significant growth path in FY 2025. These are numbers you're familiar with. Anish covered them as well, so I'm passing.
The core tractor margin has gone up to 17.7 for the year, but interestingly, when you see the quarter trend, in the quarter, the core tractor margin is 17.6. To clarify, core tractor, it includes all tractors sold in India, plus all tractors exported from India. It has both. It is not only the domestic sale, it is, but it doesn't include global tractors like Arjun. All exports from India of our tractor and domestic sale is covered in this, and that's a 17.6% margin, in spite of a significant reduction in volume that you see. So you can see a trend of a very good uptick in tractor margins. Quick update on the commitments. We're doing well and on track on most of these. So what's next?
We think many favorable factors for the farm sector as you go into FY 25, especially as we get to the second half. Favorable monsoons, farmer terms of trade, investments beginning to pick up in agri and rural, Navaratri festival shift. Some watch outs, but at the moment, on balance, we think the year will grow at +5%. Of course, we'll revisit this once in July. INR 5,000 crore investment, Anish spoke about this. This is the breakup, 2,800 for product, 700 for capacity. We are providing INR 600 crore for TREM V in this three-year cash flow, which may not be needed, because we do expect that the regulation implementation may move further.
We're fully ready with product, but the execution of that, we provided INR 600 crore in case we need to be ready with TREM V. So summary, on the Auto side, we did INR 76,000 crore top line, PBIT, PBIT of INR 6,000 crore, a strong margin improvement, good performance and market share, 23 product launches by 2030, and a INR 27,000 crore CapEx plus investment plan. On the Farm side, again, you see the numbers and a INR 5,000 crore investment plan. So, we believe that, we have now a strong execution track record, a strong brand, and momentum that we built in, and, you know, we'll have a very good product portfolio to fully leverage that as we go into the next three-year cycle. Thank you. Manoj, please.
Good afternoon, everyone. I think, I'll do a very quick wrap of what the numbers look like and throw it open for questions, because I think, I think I'm-- all of you must be very eager to do that. So quickly, at Q4, 12% growth, led by auto. It was 20% growth in auto, and then farm was flattish. If I look at PAT, it's a 32% growth in terms of standalone numbers for Q4. If I look at consolidated, overall 9% growth, I, I think, there have been multiple growth areas across multiple businesses, but of course, auto is a lead.
From a PAT perspective, if you look at it, I think auto has shown a significant growth in PAT, but Tech M is the decline, and I think Anish referred to that in his slides. If I look at overall full year, 17% and a 48%, and that is also explained by Anish in his slide. And if I look at the consolidated number, it's a 25%, and I'll just flip to the next slide. So if you look at it, INR 2,800 crore absolute increase in auto PAT, and a INR 709 crore decrease in Tech M PAT. So I think... And if I look at farm, despite all the challenges, I think an absolute increase of INR 86 crore in terms of PAT, when we go from FY 2023 to FY 2024.
All the other services, there are puts and takes, but a positive number of about INR 62 crore. That's the quick summary. With that, I'll throw it open for questions. Amar?
Just need a minute for everybody to settle down here. Do we have somebody to pass on the mic, please? Taking care of it. Kapil is always ready first. Okay, we'll kick off with Kapil from Nomura. Please, go ahead.
Thanks, Amar. Congratulations to the team for successful launch of 3XO. I think, very well executed, probably one of, one of the best, facelifts that I have seen in a long time. So, congrats. My question is on capacity. You know, we are going up from, 49 to, I think, 64 and then 72,000 per month. If we look at the order book, you know, it, despite this booking number of 50,000, we have not really seen much growth. So, in that context, you know, last quarter also, the order book was around the same levels. So if you could just help us understand, in this context, what's going on in the market, because, you know, this capacity is coming up.
Also, what we are noticing is market growth has dropped significantly to low single digits, and electric vehicle growth is also quite low, right? So, you know, a lot of capacity in the second half is coming in electric vehicles. So what are your thoughts on that? And also, if you could split up the CapEx that you've given in how much... On the farm side, you have given a breakdown of new product and capacity. On the auto side, if you could also share that number.
Couple things. So let me try and take the demand side question, if I could call it that. So when you look at quarter four growth, you know, we had kind of, in a way, indicated that that's going to be muted because we were transitioning out of 300 into 3XO, and you did see the effect of that through this quarter, because we were basically into liquidating whatever we had of 300. And though we had started producing 3XO, we were not wanting to sell it before the launch date. So you clearly had a product which was doing 6,000 a month, literally, out of sale for a large part of the quarter. So we were expecting these numbers, given that we were transitioning to this.
You know, there are, there are ways in which you can optimize that, but we didn't want an optimization to manage quarter numbers to come in the way of making a very good 3XO launch. And we know that any time you try to do this over-optimization, you leave inventory of the old product in the channel, then, you know, there is a pressure on the dealer to push the old product while the new is coming in. We wanted to just absolutely clean the channel, and we did that. So there was actually no 300 in the channel as we went in with 3XO. Everybody's clear, the salesman is clear what they're doing. So, so I think quarter four has got affected, the growth has got affected by that.
On the XUV700, we did indicate last time that we will move to creating a more accessible price point. We are in the process of doing that. You will see some of that play out over the next 15, 20 days. So, there's a very specific plan for that, that's gonna play out. So these are kind of, you know, the two key initiatives that we are taking right now. We did go through a process of cleaning up the 700 order book, which is why you see the cancellation rate go up. When I say clean up the book, it is go back to customers who have a booking, ask them if they still really intend to buy.
So in a way, we forced conversation on, "Do you really want to buy?" And that's now reflected in the, in the order book numbers that you see here. It's a reflection of us going back to customers who may have booked, whatever, 10, 12, 15 months back, still have an order in the system, and this is reconfirming with them. Those who are kind of tentative, not wanting to buy now, bought something else, we've kind of removed them from the booking list. So you see a much more updated booking list. We thought it was important to do that. We did that over the last two, three months. So I think we must separate out what we intend to sell from capacity.
Right.
Capacity should, you know, we've learned out of this, right? The cost of losing sales because you didn't have capacity is much lesser than having some capacity which is unused. Because given that we don't have to do greenfield plants, the incremental cost of creating capacity is not that much for us. So, you know, it makes sense for us to have capacity, so that we are able to leverage opportunity, every opportunity that comes up. And that's why, you know, even though we have 49,000, it doesn't mean that we will have exactly 40,000, 49,000 or 50,000, 55,000 sales every month. What we've said is, we are very confident of mid- to high-teen growth rate-
Yes.
In FY 25. We stay with that. We've said that on an assumption of where our current product is. Our current products are, on the assumption that time, that 3XO will turn out to be a really good product, which it, hopefully is playing out that way. The launch of the new Thar a few months later, which we think will also be received extremely well. So, you know, with all of that, we think that that's the right mix of having the right amount of capacity with a reasonably aggressive growth plan. The mid -to -high teens will be much faster than the industry growth. Industry growth, you are seeing is muted. We think, we always believe that in this industry, good launches, success of good launches are agnostic to state of market at any point of time.
When you have a good automotive launch, you create demand irrespective of what's happening to the industry. And in a way, 3XO is playing that story out.
Yeah.
There is so much enthusiasm about wanting to buy that, even though that segment, at this moment, is a little muted, but there is so much excitement about it. On the question of EV capacity, we stay, you know, our storyline has been that, we believe, we should create a very strong lifestyle proposition to customers. It's not about, you know, saying that we are here to electrify. It's about we are here to create a really exciting, SUV portfolio, which is gonna be standout design, very, very good, very good level of tech, and absolute fun to drive. We are gonna showcase some of that, on the fourteenth of June, for those of you who come in. Can't drive it, but, you can definitely see it.
And they've really come out very well. So we treat that as a capacity that we have to create anyway for the future. Did I cover everything?
Just, CapEx, if you could give-
Yeah.
The new product.
The split on capacity. You know, the reason we were thinking of whether we should call that out separately, the reason it becomes difficult to call it out, is a lot of our capacity is fungible between EV and ICE, because they're you know, primarily in Chakan. And then, you know, it was becoming confusing on how much capacity we attribute to each. So we made some assumption and put some of the capacity into ICE and some of the capacity into EV. But the overall investment in capacities is not very high, and we didn't feel the need in proportion to the total, so we didn't feel the need to call it out separately.
I was looking for basically, how much is the R&D out of this total budget?
Uh-
If that's possible to give.
Rajeev, can we say, like, roughly, I think more than 70%-80% is product. Product development.
Product. The development. Yes. Yes. So it's 26,000 in terms of the development.
No, no, I think, product development versus capacity, I think it's 80, 80-odd% will be product and 20% will be... Just a very ballpark number.
Sure. Sure. Thanks.
And, Kapil, just on your point on bookings-
Yeah.
Ideally, we want a lower number of bookings.
Yeah, that's correct.
Because if you have a month or two months of bookings, then you can service the customer faster.
Yes.
Right? So one can argue whether, you know, 80,000, 100,000, 120,000 is a good booking number. When we are in the 200,000 and 300,000 range, it's not a great customer experience.
I agree.
Now that we're putting capacity in place, as Rajeev said, it's better for us to have some excess capacity rather than-
Yes
... losing volume because we can't deliver fast enough. So I think we're reaching that phase now. So I'd probably say I'm still uncomfortable with 220,000, that we see there, but as we put the capacity and as we're increasing it this year, we'll start bringing that number down.
Yeah, I know, I agree. Just one question is on emissions. You know, if you could talk about the roadmap for M&M in the medium term, you know, 2027, CAFE norms are also coming. Where are you currently? How are you planning to address that, given the higher diesel mix that we have? Are you looking at other different technology options? How well are you prepared with CNG, hybrids, all of those kind of options? So just, you know, more medium-term kind of thing.
To be clear, you're looking at our preparedness for CAFE 3? Is that what you have in mind?
That's right. That's right. And where are you today as well? We don't know. So if you could-
Yeah. So, in FY 2024, we clearly met the target with the volumes of 400 that we sold and the rest of the mix that we had. So we have full compliance on the CAFE 2 norms in FY 2024. We expect that to happen with the portfolio of electric that we have in FY 2025 as well. So, that's clear. The CAFE 3 norms are still under discussion with BEE and SIAM, and so on. As we understand it, the mindset right now is to create CAFE norms, which encourage companies to have a very high portfolio of electric. It's being designed in a way that you discourage, literally discourage non-electric.
Okay.
That's the way this is going. Little counterintuitive as may, as we may sound, you know, and I was having a chat with Velu on this. He, his understanding is actually diesel for us is more favorable from complying with CAFE norm than gasoline. So we don't see a worry of between diesel and gasoline. But with the plans we have for electric, by the time we get to the CAFE three, which I think will be 2027, 2028-
Seven, yes.
We should be very comfortable with our EV plans, because we are very invested in EV.
Right.
The direction of the conversation right now is move OEMs, push them to have EV, because that's the only way to meet the CAFE norms.
What is the bare minimum EV penetration that is required in your portfolio to meet this? Any-
I think it's a hard number to calculate right now, because it depends on what the rest-
Mm
of your mix is.
Range?
Our guess is 15%-25%.
15%-25%. Okay. That's... And that would, I would-
These are not finalized, Kapil.
But this-
These are very early stages of discussion.
Do you think this is, this is going to be similar across all OEMs, or it is, you know, specific to you?
The percentage?
Yes.
The percentage will vary, you know, depending on if how much CNG you have.
Okay.
But it's not going to vary too much based on the diesel gasoline mix.
Okay. Okay. Thanks.
Okay, Vinay?
Hi, team, thanks for the opportunity. Congratulations for a stellar year. Globally, the trend that we are now seeing in auto is slowdown in electric, pickup in hybrid. In fact, in India also, we've started to see in the last few months, a slowdown in the EV side. So how are you looking at other powertrains in your portfolio? Any change in view on scope of hybrid or CNG? The second question is, in the presentation, I noticed that you talked about 80% cell localization CapEx in one of the slides. So is that something that you are looking at? And the third one is on the automotive margin, stellar performance. You know, you guided for 300 basis points, you've done much better. When we look ahead, do you think...
Like, we understand, is it fair to assume that the mix is going to get weaker in the auto business, so that's an offsetting factor? Because all the other factors look pretty favorable in FY 25: volumes, leverage playing out. So these three. Thanks.
Okay. So, just three questions. Just want to make sure I've got them right. The first one is about how we think about hybrids and others.
Mix of powertrains.
The second is on cell localization.
Right.
Yeah.
The third is on auto margin and the mix effect.
Margins.
I've not understood the mix effect, but I'll come to clarifying what you mean by that. So on hybrids, and I think you would have read recently that, you know, we knew it was headed this way, but today it's been confirmed that the finance minister said that there's no GST reduction going to be taken on board for hybrids. It's not surprising to us, given that that's been a very constant imperative of this government, that we have to drive EV penetration in India, and they're doing everything to enable the category to move towards that. I think the current, it's... You know, a lot of people are tending to compare India with the rest of the world. I don't think this is the right thing to do at the moment. Firstly, because our EV penetration is 2%.
The others are reaching some kind of a saturation after having reached 15, 20, 25%. The other conversation, and one of my colleagues was out at an investor meet in another country, and they were comparing, you know, countries like China, how charging infrastructure has come up. But India is very different, right? India, we do build, right? It's. We don't do anything which is 10 years ahead of when it's needed. So as sales pick up, charging infrastructure will come. As we've been saying repeatedly, our belief is what the EV market needs in India is a really wow product. People buy. And you know, very often we share this with all our channel partners and dealers as well, that look at what happened with Thar.
I mean, there's no rational reason to buy a Thar. It's just a very emotional wow purchase, and no one would have thought that we're doing. We did our highest, it's now almost 3.5-4 years since we launched it, and we did our highest sale of Thar three-door last month, which was more than 6,000. So, we do believe that, you know, when you have the right proposition, people are gonna buy it, and that's what we think will happen with our Born Electric. So we are really, you know, in our mind, very clear that what we are setting out to do is stay consistent with what our brand stands for, what we are offering, exciting, very good products. Electric has the benefit of a wow drive experience. I mean, just, it's just an amazing driving experience.
Apart from the quietness, the acceleration, all of that. So it's a, it's just a totally different experience. And as customers experience that, I'm sure they'll move to the right products. I think today's electric offerings are very functional, including our, our offering in the market. They're not products which will wow the customer. We, we do believe with wow products, that's, that's the right path. So sorry for the long answer, but we are staying committed on our electric path, and as Anish said in the earlier meeting, we will. It's not like we are ruling out hybrids. For us, hybrid is an optionality twice.
So basically, just as diesel was to gasoline, because diesel was more fuel efficient, and when diesel prices were lesser than gasoline, customers who were to run a lot of their vehicle every day, preferred to buy a diesel vehicle, going back in time. The same thing is going to happen with hybrid today. Today, as we analyze our portfolio of customers, very different than what we had five years back. five, seven years back, customers bought a Mahindra because they wanted fuel efficiency. Today, that's amongst the least important buying reasons amongst our portfolio of customers. So we don't see hybrid-wanting customers actively cannibalize us, except in some very few segments. So at an appropriate time, depending on how the category is moving, we will look at hybrid wherever we need. Anish, you want to add anything to that?
Yeah, I'll just add that, governments around the world for the last 20 years haven't incentivized hybrid, because hybrid is more expensive because you've got two powertrains.
... emissions is really not that much better than ICE. Yes, there's fuel efficiency that's better than ICE, but it still uses a fair bit of fuel. As compared to EV, where you got zero emissions, where you got zero fuel use, and which is why governments are incentivizing EV, because they want to have the industry transition to EV. Also, the incentives will come down over time, as costs of battery will come down over time. So EV is the endgame. Hybrids can be something that's in between, and if the consumer wants more hybrid, then we will be ready for that. We are also looking at hybrid technologies that may be closer to a pure EV, and to the extent those technologies develop further, then we'll move faster on that play.
We are keeping our eyes open for that, but we're not surprised by what we saw recently, because there isn't a logic to incentivize hybrid, as compared to a very strong logic to incentivize EV.
Yes. On cell localization, yes, we have said we will evaluate cell localization. We continue to do it. We won't do it alone, we will do it in a partnership, and there could be multiple constructs to that partnership. But it is something that we are very actively looking at. It certainly won't be a full investment by us. It will be with multiple sets of strategic or financial investment options. Anish, you all right?
I think-
On the auto margin, can you just clarify what you meant by mix?
That in general, if you look at, on the XUV side, 700, we are talking about lower trends. XUV 3XO is coming in, which is also lower ASP. So which is why when 85, it's very clear on the positive side of drivers, you know, which is volume leverage, is going to be quite sizable for you. Pricing is holding quite well in your segment. So, you know, there's a headwind, if I think that maybe the mix is looking weaker. So just happy to hear your comments on that.
Yeah. So, you know, we avoid giving a definitive guidance, except at one-
time we did. But, I think what we have to go with is our track record to deliver margins, and, you know, we've consistently been focused on getting margins. What we do try to do is balance growth and margin all the time. We don't want to get into a margin-chasing mindset, which affects our ability to grow and stay strong in the market. So we do do this balancing. As we are looking at mid- to- high teen growth, definitely there'll be operating leverage that will come in. Hopefully, commodities will stay reasonably benign as it looks at the moment. Of course, this you can't predict which way that goes.
So overall, we would, you know, continue, like what we've done in the past, to make sure we get important or interesting price points in place, so that we get growth, but also keep a very close watch on costs, and the mix, like you said. I just wanted to be sure you're talking about the model mix and the variant mix, so that we get the right growth in margins, as all of you want and we want.
Can I just add to that? In general, the mix itself may not have a big impact, with the 3XO coming in, because we should be able to get, margins on that. But the principle we've talked about in the past will stay, which is for every new launch, there will be lower margins. So the 3XO also at the start will have lower margins than what it will... It'll go up. The Thar five door will coming in, will have the same thing. The electric vehicles coming in will have the same thing. And also, as you think about margins for electric, just a reminder that Rajesh reminded me in the previous meeting as well, is that the percentage for electric will be lower because GST is far lower.
So while the same, let's say you have the same margin on an ICE vehicle and an electric vehicle, the percentage margin will be lower on electric because the GST is lower. So that's something we'll just have to, you know, ensure that's factored into the sort of calculations that you have.
We'll call it out separately, so that's it.
We show it separately for both ICE and electric, so that'll be easier from that perspective.
Just lastly, fair to assume that you will qualify for PLI when you launch the next leg of electric launches?
Let's, let's say-
Because that's the-
Let's say it is fair to assume that we are doing everything to qualify for PLI.
Okay, thank you.
Yeah, that is the target, and that's something that,
I'll, I'll just take a couple of questions online, because there's a whole list, and then we'll come back. Raghu, we can start with you. Anish, these are two questions for you, related, so I thought I'll club them. One is, you know, great performance means dividend expectations go up. Question is, why just 30%? And second, does this mean EPS guidance goes up?
As I said earlier, don't factor 84% in for next year's EPS guidance. Why 30%? We felt that that was a good number overall in terms of growth and, and something that reflects our performance. We do feel that there are exciting growth opportunities for us, which is why we are still being very measured and focused from a capital allocation standpoint, but at the same time, keeping the cash balance we have for potential growth opportunities as we see them. Over time, we'll continue giving back more. But for us, it's important to be consistent, and it's important to be steady in terms of how we grow. Does 30% mean our EPS guidance goes up? At this time, we will stay with 15%-20% EPS growth and 18% ROE. So that's something...
Over time, if we continue to perform much better, we may revise that, but at this time, we will continue to stay with that.
Okay. Raghu, maybe we'll start with you, and then come back, and then Gunjan after that. Please go ahead.
... Thank you, sir, for the opportunity.
Yes, one.
Congrats on delivering on so many parameters. Sir, firstly, on the tractor side, a 5% growth expectation for FY 25, how do you see growth panning out across regions? The general expectation is North, Central, and West should do better compared to South. And also, what do you think can be the upside trigger to the growth estimate you have given? Continuing on tractor, if you can also talk about whether TREM V would come in April 2026? If that is happening, can FY 26 growth be, you know, substantially strong? Second question is on XUV 3XO. Congrats on the strong bookings.
So in terms of the bookings, if you can provide some color, your initial thoughts, how the top end versus, you know, order book is divided, you know, between automatic, normal, top end, low end, and how you are seeing whether that attractive initial pricing attracted or that it has to attracted. What attracted people to the product?
I've been in board meetings since yesterday, so I only know 50,000. Joking. I'll try and answer it as much as possible. So on the tractor growth, you know, I think the obvious way to look at it is South will grow slower than the rest of the country. My, at least, so to say, discussion point on this with our team is why? Because they're on such a low base. You know, many of the southern states have seen, like, Telangana, Andhra, Karnataka, between -25 and -35, in FY 2024. So given that they're on a low base, I think if you see good rains, then actually that, to your second point, could be the upside.
Because why should we assume that South will continue on a negative growth given that they're on such a low base? So I think that's, to me, the key story that has to play out. The three regions will get, that you spoke about. East, I'm not so sure, because, you know, there is a little, the initial forecast on monsoon on East are not that great, and there's a possibility of either too little or too heavy rain, as, as I gather from the initial forecast. So, East, I'm not sure, but I think North and West will be pretty decent, including Maharashtra, which also has a very low base in FY 2024. So that could be one upside as we think about the FY 2025 numbers, which is some of these regions move into a growth trend.
I think the positive farmer terms of trade is a potential upside, and we shouldn't discount that it makes a lot of difference to the farmer. The critical thing is, as monsoons come in, how long does it take for new cash to come back to farmer? And that's why a lot of people are saying that we should be very optimistic about the second half, whereas the quarter one right now is a little disturbed because of election. Cash will not come back so quickly right now, given they're coming off a negative last four, five months of Rabi output and so on. So, there is a lot of optimism about how second half can bounce back very strongly.
So it's too early to call, but April was better than what we thought, and hopefully, we will see a better than 5% growth as we go along. But it's too early to call, as we always say so. Right now, I think 5% will be a good starting point, but hopefully, there will be more upside triggers to that than what we are taking on board. TREM V, Rajeev, Hemant, is 27, right?
Twenty-six.
Twenty... It's 26? That's the current level of postponement. I mean, our sense is it's very unlikely to happen in 2026. Very, very unlikely. So of course, if it were to happen in 26, there would be a huge upswing in 2025 volumes, but I would not count on the 2026 implementation date. Certainly, not the way it's envisaged, with all models going into TREM V at the same time in all horsepowers, so... But you're right, that if that were to happen, of course, FY25 will see a very big up. On the XUV 3XO, let me try and give you a little more philosophical answer than a numeric answer. So the way we've constructed the pricing is to actually think of attracting many different types of target segments.
You know, if you went through our launch presentation, we took a lot of effort to kind of define. I think we did six or five segments finally. And each segment has a, you know, there's a logic and a strategy built in, and we balanced our portfolio almost equally. So we, we do want some variants to help migrate from down to up, which is outside the five or six players that we spoke about. So there is something in at the entry level as an upgrader from either a hatch or no car. So the one data that we have, not out of the 50,000, but the first lot of inquiries and test drives that were going on is, 25% no, no vehicles, no vehicle ownership out of the first lot of people. 25% hatch.
So, so it's a very different... And only 15% Mahindra ownership out of the first lot of customers coming in. So we are attracting a, attracting a very different audience. But we equally have a lot of excitement at the top. And, you know, even anecdotally, as you talk to people, Anish wants to book two for himself, I mean. So he hasn't—he's not in that 50,000 yet. But, there, there are many such people who want to buy either for spouses or, older parents, where, you know, you want to give them everything, but they don't want a bigger, they just don't want the benefit of size. And, you know, a, a good takeaway is that, you know, the words customers are using are either Mini 700 or Baby 700.
You know, these are the kind of words we are hearing back from customers. We've not used this anywhere in our communication, but customers are, as they're experiencing us, are playing this back. So you do have the AX7, AX7L excitement as well, because that's a very, very different customer. So obviously, we'll never get the model mix absolutely right, and we'll kind of fine-tune as we go along, but we've worked on a balance. Right now, I think early numbers are gasoline is 65-70%, and diesel is about 30%. I don't know the automatic you have. I don't have that number yet, so this is the only one I have right now. 20? Yeah, gas automatic, about 20. So that'd be a very early number. So, that, that's all I have for... Thanks.
Good to hear you are attracting newer customers.
Sorry? Good-
Good to hear you're attracting newer customers.
Yeah, that is. So that's how we've constructed the pricing, you know, so that's why you have such a wide price band and you have such a complex variant mix, which is literally kind of saying, you know, we need a very strong diesel portfolio because the Mahindra loyalist in Tier Two, Tier Three cities will still stay with diesel. So that is different from the category, but that's our, that's still a Mahindra stronghold, and three double O has a reasonable amount of diesel customers in Tier Two, Tier Three towns. We need to protect that. So we've kind of thought of this from multiple directions, but we need a strong gasoline automatic for metros. So we've kind of thought of trying to cover multiple segments using this very complicated brand strategy.
Thank you so much.
All right. Please.
Hi, Nitin from Axis Mutual Fund. Congratulations to the team. Though most questions have been answered on autos and, and the power, just one question to you, Anish. Last year, when we met here, you did investment in RBL Bank. It's now more than a year. Any further plans, or hopefully, that's the, that's the thing. But, thank you for not going ahead after that in the whole year. So, just want your take on that.
Yes, I was waiting to see how much time would it be before that came up again. But see, as we said at that time, that was essentially a treasury investment with potentially a strategic option that may be exercised 7-10 years later. So there's nothing else on the table from an RBL perspective at all. It's something that we will bring up seven years later and see whether the strategic option makes sense or not. And if not, from a treasury standpoint, we've got good returns on it, and we continue to get good returns, is what we believe, based on our assessment of the banking industry. So it's something that, you know, maybe at the 7-year mark, I can answer a little more clearly at that point.
Great to hear that.
Yes.
Second, on the trucks business-
Yes.
Any thoughts now to sell it off, or you think you can now turn it around much faster? Any thought process there on the truck side?
So it's actually turned around well, and it's moving well. I think we can do a lot more in that business. Hopefully, give much stronger competition to some of the incumbents there. But we're still small, so we'll take some time to be able to get there. We're also manufacturing for defense, armored vehicles and, ALSVs, and there's a good synergy between that and our defense manufacturing also. So from that perspective, that should help both the trucks business as well as the defense business as we look at getting more scale with that. And we have just recently put those businesses under the same leader as well, so that we can start leveraging some of the synergies going forward. So we see this as a very good, very strong business.
We see this as one that we can grow. It had been one in what we had put back there in category A in terms of businesses we feel that will grow and will do well, and, it's one that I think is on a solid path now. Rajesh, anything you want to add?
Yeah, you know, so we, we're taking this step at a time and, you know, if I was to get more micro about this, out of the entire dealer network, right now, we are focused on just 40, 50 key towns or key dealerships. So we're taking it step at a time. So we say 40 dealers, okay, what's the market share there? What do we need to do? Out of these 40 dealers, 12 of them are more than 10% market share. So, you know, so we are basically building share town by town at a time and sort of kind of saying, "Okay, you know, go across the country." Of course, there are dealers.
It's not like we don't have dealers in other towns, but management focus is going into a very, very focused execution on ground, picking dealers step by step, building positivity among the rest of the dealers by demonstrating success. So, you know, there's a very calibrated execution plan on how to ramp this up, and we are not in a hurry. As Anish said, you know, a lot of the financial parameters have turned around. We've brought the break-even business in this business down very dramatically, so we will get a lot of operating leverage as volumes go up.
Thank you very much, and all the best to you guys.
Thank you.
Kunjan, I'll come to you. If I can just take one online as well, and then to you. It's a tough question, but it's a fair question to ask, so I'm going to pass it on to you, Anish. Mahindra Finance, every time it feels like things are going well, something comes up. Repeated internal control lapses is how somebody categorized it, Chirag from White Pine. Just what's your view?
So let's look at what happened here. This was a collusion with 20+ people, dealers included, a lot of documents forged, collection agents involved in it as well. And as we looked at, as I said earlier, the entire portfolio and had to go loan by loan to show that the controls were strong across the country, and the team actually came out fairly well. Not fairly well, really well, saying that there is no issue across the country. And they literally went through 10 lakh customers with the auditors and showed proof for every single of those 10 lakh customers in literally 3-5 days. So that, that was the kind of effort that went into it. A lot more controls have been strengthened over the last few years.
In fact, this also was essentially picked up by one of the folks on the team that looked at data and said, "Why are Nissan sales going up so much in Mizoram? And that seems a little strange," and that's how the team picked it up and got into it. So while we have put in stronger controls for collusion, this is not something I would take as indicative of controls in Mahindra Finance. Overall, I think it's a very strong control mechanism. We had even reported a cyber incident where Mahindra Finance recovered literally without any losses, and the entire recovery was done in a two-day period. While this has happened to others in the industry, many others have been down for a long period of time before recovering. So everything that's there has been set up well.
There are various steps being taken to strengthen it even more, because what we do realize in the financial services industry is that, being good is not good enough. We've got to be outstanding, and that's part of what we are driving the business to do now. But therefore, as I said earlier, let that not foreshadow the fact that the business has delivered very well, and despite the one fraud issue, has really been able to bring losses down, has been able to grow assets under management, and has been able to demonstrate a very strong control system. And that's something we will just have to be able to show over time, that we've got a lot more stability into this business than was there in the past.
I think whatever is there about the past is accurate, and we had a fair amount of volatility there, but a lot of that volatility has been, has been cleaned out now.
Thank you, Anish. Gunjan, please go ahead.
Thanks. Thanks for taking my question, and congratulations for a great year. Anish, I had a question on the Growth Gems. There's a pretty aggressive scale-up plan articulated for most of these companies. Now, if you look at the entire portfolio, which are the companies you would say are clearly on the path of turnaround, and, you know, you feel most confident about? And there was also a, you know, maybe almost two years back, you spoke about the unlocking opportunities in that part of the, you know, group. Can you just share, you know, where are we on that journey?
Sure, Gunjan. So let me start with Susten. As I said earlier, Susten's won 2 GW of bids this year. After having a very disciplined process for bidding, which we inherited or was brought in by Ontario Teachers based on their global experience. There have been some bids we've lost by 1 paisa as well, but we've been fine with that, saying we like the discipline around it, because the returns are important. The reason I say that is we've still got 2 GW after all of that, and the business is looking at potentially a 7-10x growth over the next five years. I'd say more 7x. Let me not sort of talk about 10x right now, but at least a 7x growth. So that's very much on the path.
Holidays, which Manoj will take over soon, has very high expectations. In fact, soon means now, at the end of this meeting. It has very high expectations for growth. The demand is extremely high. We've shown the ability to deliver very well in terms of family vacations, and this is a business we want to invest in a lot more. So the INR 5,000 crore investment we saw in services, there is a good amount that's allocated for holidays because occupancy rates are high, the demand from customers is very high. We can deliver very well in this space. So that's one that we see with a clear 5x growth path. Logistics is a business that executed poorly last year. That has picked up on execution very well this year right now.
It's in an industry that is going to show tremendous growth in India. As we look at the Viksit Bharat goals and where manufacturing in India is going to grow, logistics is going to be a key player in that space, and that's a space that we will look at making more investments, and we do see a 5x growth being very much achievable for logistics. Real Estate has very strong momentum right now. We need to be able to. The business has actually done very well also, and that's one where we will continue to invest in to grow that business. The market cap has risen quite substantially for Real Estate, so on a very solid path.
CLPL, which is Classic Legends, has a very good set of products, and you will see a lot more coming in from that stable over the next few months. And therefore, that business today has had... It has had some hiccups in the past, which have been corrected now and is on a good path. And that's one again, where we've got external investors in. And for us, as well as the external investors who have come in, we're looking at a very significant growth in that business as well. Our Aerostructures business is a small business today, but the kind of accolades that we've got from Airbus and some of the other OEMs is very good.
The business has been set up very well, very strong from a delivery standpoint, a quality standpoint, and therefore, we are bringing in a lot more orders into that business as well. Defense, which is focused on transportation, we are looking at a lot more from an armored vehicle standpoint. The MOU that we've signed with Embraer for the medium transport aircraft, that can actually grow Defense 50x, not just 5x. I may not have the exact number, but somewhere, you know, pretty high as compared to 5x. So that, that's again, a business that would do well. That would not require a lot of capital, because the way it's structured, usually capital is sort of brought in in advance, and it may not require a lot of capital in that sense.
So we see across our Growth Gems, one's doing very well. Accelo is focused on decarbonizing the auto industry. It needs a faster growth rate right now. We don't see a five x growth rate for Accelo at this point in time, but that's what we're working on, to say: How can we get it to that level while all the others are there? But Accelo is also among the larger ones among everything else, because Accelo has profits today of about INR 250 crore or somewhere in that range. So it's among the larger ones. And-
...That's probably going to be the first towards unlocking in terms of going to the capital markets. But beyond that, beyond Accelo, Last Mile Mobility will also likely go to capital markets in terms of an IPO. And Farm Machinery is one that we talked about, 32% growth this year versus the 35%-36% growth last year. We feel we can do a lot more in Farm Machinery, and that's one that again we will put in more investments in that, and we feel that that business can grow significantly. So overall, we've got a good portfolio there that is growing well overall.
There are some businesses that are not quite at the 5X mark, as I mentioned, but they are very well positioned in what, what they're doing right now, and, we should be able to, on balance, get much more. Our target for this group overall, we had shown this last year, and, and we probably can show it at one of the next analyst meet, as to how it's grown. It has grown from roughly about $0.8 billion collectively in terms of market cap in FY 2020 to $3.4 billion collectively in FY 2023, and that number is higher right now. I don't know exactly what that number is, but we want that $3.4 billion to go to $17 billion, by the time we get to fiscal 2030.
So we're looking at a significant growth in the Growth Gems overall, and we are on path for that. I wouldn't expect a lot of profits in terms of Growth Gems every year, because it will be investments that will translate into profits later. So which is why you may see a slightly muted growth number for profits there, but it's one that we're looking at creating the business, setting them up well, and thereby being able to drive growth for the next decade for us.
Thank you. The second question, Rajesh, I had was on the autos business. Now, a lot of questions have been answered, just, 3XO, capacity. Now, we've seen that with many launches, you know, day one, huge response, and, you know, congratulations on that, but I think it just makes the customer wait for longer. So what is the thought process on the capacity for 3XO? Is it similar to what it was for XUV 300? If you can share that. And also on the BEV product positioning, you know, a lot of it will start coming from next year onwards. How are we thinking about the customer set there? Is it, you know, trying to get people who have bought Mahindra cars in the last couple of years, they sort of upgrade to it? Is it going to be very premium positioning?
Because you said it's more about wow factor. Just a little bit color around the positioning of the EV portfolio.
Yes, on the 3XO, Gunjan, we are very mindful that this segment is not gonna have waiting time. I mean, it's you know, a first-time buyer, when they want a car, they want a car. Nobody's going to wait. Definitely not wait many months, right? So that's something which is. We are very, very alive to the nature of this segment, which may be different than the nature of a Thar buyer, where it's okay. You know, it's like something that you want, you don't mind waiting to get it. You're not going to buy anything else, because there's nothing else like it. So, so we're very mindful of that. We have already produced more than 10,000 vehicles as we get into right now. So we already have inventory. We'll start delivering from 26th of this month.
We did say that the capacity we have is 9,000 a month, which is higher than the 300 capacity. That was part of that 49,000 to 55,000 that you saw on that slide. So we've said we have 9,000, and it- with a very small short lead time and a very minimal investment, it can go up to 10,500. So right now, that's what we are in preparation for. Of course, if the numbers go higher than that, at the moment, we are not prepared for, but it's not something we- it's not something that we can't get going with the point of time. So that's on the 3XOs. Does that answer what you have in mind?
But we are, Gunjan, very mindful that in this segment, if the wait periods are very high, you know, we'll have a reasonable dropout rate, and which is why we, you know, will have to keep momentum on ground going by way of demand, because it can't be a static customer list. If you're not delivering, they're going to drop out and buy something else. That's pretty clear to us. On the BEV positioning, you know, I'm going to try to avoid defining it by way of Mahindra customer or not. I would more, I would rather put it as attitude or a psychographic definition, which is around people who want to stand out, do things differently, experience new things, and definitely are hungry for experiencing the latest tech.
And this product is gonna come with tech, which is unseen in vehicles of way, way higher price points. It's gonna be something which is really pathbreaking by way of getting new tech. So we think it's—that's why we say it's gonna be a wow product. We have been getting customers who are buying Mahindra ICE with a similar profile, by and large, you know, so in a way, that will play out. Ideally, for us, you don't want a Mahindra current customer to necessarily move to... The people who we couldn't succeed in getting so far with the same psychographic mindset is what we are hoping we'll get to BEV. So then it's a win-win-win.
Of course, there may be some cannibalization, but we think that there's enough untapped opportunity for a vehicle of this type, which we have not been able to leverage so far, with even the 700. This is quantum leap over 700.
All right. I'll, Manoj, a question for you from online. I'll come to you in a second. Request to see if it is possible to start reporting the financial services debt, gross, gross and net separate, so that it's easy to understand the debt number for the group ex financial services.
I think we can do that easily, so I think we will implement it, and maybe Amar you will implement it in the QRs, so.
I took an action for myself. Thank you for that. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, this is Sonal Gupta from HSBC Mutual Fund. So two questions around EVs. One was on the last-mile mobility. So you've talked about, we've seen a good ramp-up on the three-wheelers, and you mentioned that L5 is still only 11%-11%. So how much of your volume is coming from the L5? And secondly, I mean, like, more importantly, how are we looking at that category in terms of, like... Because I think that's a lower portion of our volume. So what are the ramp-up plans there? Because I think now we are seeing more, I mean, like, other major OEMs also getting into the space, so.
Yeah, L5, Rajeev, now is 55, 60% of our volume. That was the question, right, Sonal?
Uh, EV.
L5-
EV. L5.
Yeah, yeah. L5 in between, between EV three-wheeler, L5 versus non-L5 is 50-
Non-L5 is every category.
Uh, so-
Every category is 60%-70%.
Yeah, that's what. So-
Sorry, so but, in—It's low plus, right? Oh, okay. Sure. And just in terms of, like, a ramp-up, like, we've raised money also. So how are we looking at that, and in terms of capacity also, like?
Yeah, we've raised money. As you know, we have 600 from one investor and 400 now from the other, so INR 1,000 crore. We have aggressive growth plans, so there is work happening on new gen platform and new, completely new products for the future. We are also investing in capacity at Zaheerabad plant, which is part... Basically, existing auto plant, a lot of the auto products we moved out. We used to make the camper there, which is moved to another auto plant, Haridwar. And this will become primarily a electric three-wheeler plant, by and large, the Zaheerabad auto plant. So all the investment around what we're doing on electric three-wheelers, in future, is primarily happening there.
They continue to get some product from Bangalore factory and from the Haridwar factory, which is more like the e-Alfa type of products from Haridwar. So really all the investment is going in creating capacity, product, and all in the Zaheerabad ecosystem. Did I answer your question?
But, what's the sort of capacity looking at?
You know, so as we said, right now, this category is at 11% penetration. Over the next few years, without defining what that is, but in the foreseeable future, we think that category penetration should go to 40%-50%.
Right.
Which would mean a very significant increase. Now, when that is happening, you know, we do expect market share will come down, because there is already one new competitor, and we believe that together we'll get growth momentum going. So we would expect market share to moderate to a reasonable level, but quantum growth in volumes is what we would expect.
Got it. And my second question, again, on the EV side, is now as we get closer to the BEV launch as well, right? And, the agreement, announcement with VW was announced a few days after the previous con call. So, just, just wanted to get a sense of where all are we collaborating with VW and their platform, the MEB platform, and what are we trying... I mean, like, what, what things are we localizing ourselves, and what are we doing ourselves today?
So we are not buying the platform, just to, you know, just to clarify that, we've said this earlier, too. Our agreement with them is to buy components of the MEB platform. That is very different than the construct they have with some other OEM, where the platform, MEB platform, as it is, is being used by another OEM. In our construct, we're not locked into the platform. What we are buying from them is cells, and motors, and a few other components. The cell-to- module and module-to-pack is our IP, and it's being done by us, and we are localizing that. So the whole localization is being done by us. What we are getting from them are the cells, primarily, and the motors. And there's a thought process on how do we localize motor.
We also announced that we have an alternate motor supplier. You may have read that some months back, Valeo, and, Valeo will be localizing the motor.
Valeo is doing the motor, the e-axle, and other stuff, right? The power electronics.
We have two types of motors, one VW motor and a Valeo motor, depending on the variant.
Got it. And the power electronics will be-
Separate.
Separate.
Separately.
Yeah.
Separate. Okay, great. Thank you so much.
Okay.
Go ahead, Rishi.
Hi, this is Nishit Jalan from Axis Capital. Two questions. If I look at your new launches, right, you have talked about 7 BEVs, and you have talked about six new ICE SUVs as well, right? So that seems that implies that you will have almost a 17, 18 model or nameplate kind of a product portfolio. So do we have enough gap to kind of address to have that bigger product portfolio? And my second question is, this time you haven't talked about exports. You you only had big plans but didn't have capacity. So if you can throw some light around, how do you see exports ramping up over the next three years? That's it from my side.
Also, maybe your two questions may be interlinked, too. Because when you're talking about gap, some of the ICE products we are developing may be more export-focused as well. So,
... So, you know, the answer to that question is, yes, there is a nice portfolio that's getting developed. There's a bare portfolio that's getting developed. That's part of how we do want to drive globalization, over the next six, seven years. We—like we've said, we'll do that in a very calibrated way, without being reckless. We'll take our time, market by market, and, build it, but we do need the products, which are, are, you know, gonna be globally competitive. So some of these will be, you know, going towards that. When we say a new, new product, a new ICE product, what we mean is, it may be replacing an existing ICE product, but it's on a totally new platform. So then we are calling it a new product and not a mid-cycle refresh.
But it may be replacing slots which we are today holding in our portfolio. Does that help?
Thank you.
Okay. I had a question online, from Nagraj Chandrasekar . This is for you, Anish, as well as to Manoj in his new role. Holidays: do you see the current business model of vacation ownership sustainable? And if not, what can we expect? Would we be moving to a normal hotel model or to a point-based model? What's your thoughts, both of you?
I'll take that and not put Manoj on the spot, a few minutes before he starts the new role. So we will look at all options. What we know right now is the feedback from our customers that go to a resort is very, very positive. They love being at our resorts, and we can deliver very strong family vacations for consumers in India. We do see some challenges from customers who may not be able to get bookings at times because there are... If everyone wants a booking in Goa in December, everyone cannot get a booking for Goa in December, whether it's a timeshare model or whether it's any hotel model.
If any of us were to try to get a booking on fifth December for Goa, for twentieth of December, we would likely not get it because everything will be full. So what we're looking at right now is all options, saying, do we add to our timeshare model? I think it's a good model. We have 300,000 customers. It's actually doing very well. So it's not one that we would sort of reject or put away. But the question is: What can we add to it? And how can we add to it in a way where it leverages the strengths we have, at the same time, pulls in another set of customers, customers that may not want to have a 25-year commitment.
And those are the questions and discussions that we will have over the next few months, and then have Manoj come back and answer that question very specifically, saying, "Here's exactly what we're doing.
All right, so just another question before I come back to the audience here. Anish, this is for you specifically. You talked about M&A as a strategic tool. This is from Jinesh, from Ambit. What would you be open to, and what would you say is a strictly no-go area?
So, Jinesh, what we've done over the last three years is not gonna change. We're gonna continue doing that. What it exactly means is that if there's an M&A that will help further our growth strategy in any of our core businesses or our growth, that include... Let me say, for any of our core businesses, which includes auto and farm, where we capitalize market leadership, which includes Tech Mahindra and Mahindra Finance for unlocking, and which includes our Growth Gems. For any of these, if we see certain acquisitions that can help further our growth plans, can help add more capabilities, that's something we will do. But we will do it in a way where we can deliver on what we said in that acquisition and be able to deliver the returns from that acquisition.
In addition to that, Jinesh, you and many others have asked about what happens outside the current footprint as well. This is an area now, given the growth that we've seen and the benefits we've seen across our businesses, including services, we will look at potentially one new area of growth. We have been looking at that, frankly, for the last two years, but we haven't been able to get something that we say, "This really makes sense." So if we don't get something the way that we can say it really makes sense, we won't do anything. If we do, then we will look at one potential new area where we can leverage the Mahindra brand, where we feel we can deliver significant returns to our shareholders. And that's something that we will do at that point in time.
But as I said again, it has to be something that really makes sense, where we can deliver the returns, and if that's the case, we will come back with one new area beyond our current footprint.
Yeah, hi, this is Yogesh Aggarwal from HSBC. Just one question again on electric vehicles. So, Anish, sorry, Rajesh, you mentioned that there are not enough good EV models in the market. Is that the only reason we are stuck in terms of penetration? The reason I'm asking is, in the next 2 years, I think bulk of the capacity addition is in EVs. I think of the 22,000, 18,000-19,000 is just EVs, for you. So which means, the next after this year, bulk of the volumes you are expecting to come from EVs. So in the next 6- 12 months, you expect some kind of inflection point in the way, customers look at EVs, and that there will be a lot better acceptance for EVs?
Yogesh, I'm not sure I completely understood. So are you taking the capacity expansion slide and then interpreting that to work out the mix of EV and ICE?
Yeah.
Is that how you are-
Exactly.
-approaching it?
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, so I just, you know, qualification that I don't know if I remember if I made it right now, I did make it in the earlier deck, so let me just put that out, as a clarification. So the cash outflow that we've shown includes investment in ICE capacity, which goes beyond FY 2026. So the ICE capacity doesn't stay like this till FY 2030. So because some of the investments we'll make in ICE capacity will not come in the FY 2026 timeline, they'll come beyond the FY 2026 timeline. So that's why it's not on the chart. So I'm not sure you're, you'll be able to work out the way you-
49 goes to 72, and that includes 18,000 for EV.
That's correct. But the 49 goes to 55. Now, the beyond 55 is not coming till beyond within the FY26 timeline, right? So the cash outflow includes capacity investments for ICE, which capacity for which will come beyond FY26.
Okay.
But since we've shown you only capacity of FY 2026, you're not seeing the ICE capacity beyond FY 2026 come out in that number. But the cash flow includes ICE capacities, which goes beyond FY 2026.
Okay.
So that's. I should have made that clarification. I did make it in the media meeting, but I think I forgot. In my rush to save time, forgot to say that.
So this is not reflective of the EV mix, to-
It is not reflective of the EV mix beyond FY26.
Okay, got it. Thank you.
That's, Yogesh, that's, you got-
Yeah.
You're clear, right?
Okay. So we are, we are actually above our time here. So unless there is any more questions here, I think online as well, we have answered. Okay, please. Sorry, go ahead.
Hi, this is Ashish from Macquarie. So my question is on the EV CapEx. So last time we had spoken about INR 6,000 crore of EV CapEx between 2025-2027. At that number is now INR 12,000 crore. So where is that jump coming from, apart from maybe the capacity that we spoke about?
Uh-
Because a lot of the product outlook has not changed. We were talking about 6-7 BEV anyways in the past as well. That's first and secondly, if I look at the core tractor margins, adjusted for the one-off we had in 3Q, quarter-on-quarter, actually, core tractor margins are flat. This is in spite of, you know, a sharp decline in volumes that we have seen sequentially. So what's driving that margin support we are seeing this quarter?
Okay, on the first question, which is around you know, on the way we're thinking about BEVs, what exactly... Can you just repeat what you had in mind?
It's the CapEx number.
Yeah, sorry. Yeah. So, Manoj, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 6,000 was not for the 25-27 cycle. This is the first time we are putting out a 25-27-
No, no, I think they are referring to the two-year-old,
Yeah, but I was on for the 25-26 cycle.
No, I think they had said 10,000-
Ten thousand.
-crores. So, I think the... And maybe I can clarify, and Rajesh-
Yeah.
So obviously, during the course of the events, the number of models, et cetera, have gone up, but we have never talked about the next year, next three years' CapEx. So I think that's the disconnect. The number when we had originally talked about, didn't talk about, because we have added more models now as we talked about the whole thing, and the capacity is also adding. So I think, Rajesh, the difference is when we talked, when we talked about it then, it was INR 4,000 is what we have spent already, and another INR 6,000 is, and that INR 6,000, how does this go to INR 12,000? And what is driving it?
Yeah.
The initial estimate was 10,000-
Right.
which is what we had put out.
Yeah.
Of that initial estimate, INR 4,000 has been spent, and you're right in saying that INR 6,000 would be spent. At that point in time, we hadn't finalized the entire model mix, nor the exact timeline for that INR 10,000. There were questions, in fact, in a prior analyst meet saying: "Is this enough for EV, that you're going to need more for EV?" At that point, we had said that, "Yes, we will come back with a 25-27 outlook at the end of this fiscal year." Now, having gone through that in detail, the estimate for the next three years is INR 12,000, in addition to the INR 4,000 that we had.
Yeah, and sorry for not getting, Ashish, your question, correctly. So what happens in the 25-27 cycle is you're also having cash out for the next wave of products, which is 27-30. Because you start work on products which are going to come out in 27-30 cycle as well, right? It's not a discrete point. So some work has been happening for the last two, three years, which some of those products you will see in the 25-27 cycle. Likewise, you start spending some money as cash flow, they don't get capitalized-
Right.
for products which will come in the 27-30 cycle. Right. So, so in a way, what you are seeing are, is a rollover of two, two phases. So one phase which started a couple of years back, and you will see the products come out in this cycle, but you will still have a cash outflow because, you know, you will, you will—you're still gonna launch them over the next year and a half or two. And then you are having a spend in the 25-27 cycle for products which will come out in the, whatever, 28-30 cycle.
Got it.
And that's why you see more products here than the three or four which will come out right now. And of course, there is some for capacity as well.
And also, the core tractor margins as well.
Yeah. So, what I heard you say on the core tractor margin is that-
Volumes
... the margins have been at a good level in spite of the volume going down.
Yes.
And what enabled that?
Yeah.
Is that the question?
Yes.
Yeah, you know, sometimes when things go well, also you have to explain. So, we just had the same set of questions in the board, that, "Okay, so what did you do?" So, there, I answered by saying, "That's the secret sauce," but I, I think I can't get away with that here. So, so I think, I think what we, what we tend to do, Ashish, is... You know, one of the key success factors in the tractor industry, and that's why we show the stability and volatility kind of slide, because, you know, the ability of the business to respond to upcycle and downcycle. So, you know, I'm just answering it a little more holistically.
When there is an upcycle, then you go to ramp up your production very quickly, get going, you know, galvanize the supply chain, all of that. And also up marketing so that you fully leverage the growth opportunity that will be lying in front of you. And when you're seeing a downcycle, you will have to shrink your supply chain, get your suppliers into kind of, okay, you know, we're cutting back production for a little bit, but you also take some of the costs out, which you don't need to spend in a downcycle period, right? So we try to do this balancing, and on top of that, I think quarter four commodity prices on the tractor side have been benign. That has helped.
Rubber went up now, which we'll see some effect of that in quarter one, but overall, tractor commodity prices for tractors were pretty benign as well in quarter four, which helped the margin.
Got it, sir. Thank you.
All right, maybe last question, just to wrap up the day, go ahead.
Hi, Viraj from SiMPL. Just 2 questions. First is on the realization, especially on the tractor side, we've seen a very healthy bump up. So anything happening there? And second is on the Farm Machinery business. I think, the earlier communication was that in the next 4-5 years, we'll be looking at, close to INR 4,000-5,000 crore in scale. Now, we are close to INR 1,000 crore, and, even there, our approach was that initially we will be okay with a very aggressive pricing, or we'll be looking to making a sizable investment. So on INR 900 crore of sales, we are maybe around INR 200 crore of EBIT losses.
So you think the products which we are supplying, are they at a sizable scale where you'll now see them turning into a, you know, a profitable scale? So...
Anish, maybe I'll give it a shot, and then you can add in. We're giving ourselves a window to make money of two to three years. It's not a very long period. It's not CapEx intensive at all. So it's basically, yeah, some of the loss funding is going into getting the right pricing for some of the key markets. As we get success, we already beginning to you know, sort of, build that price back into the equation. The losses are lesser than what you said for the year that went by, so I'm just clarifying that we've not lost as much money as you think we are losing. Your original point was, you know, are we seeing a path to that level of growth?
I mean, of course, that's what we are gunning for. And I had... I remember in one of the analyst meetings saying, "If we don't do 40% growth in FY 2024, we'll be very disappointed." And I do say that we are disappointed that we didn't do 40% growth. We ended up with 32-odd%. But it was a very difficult year, from a, you know, marketplace standpoint, we know that, seeing what happened to the tractor industry. So as tractor and, you know, machinery industry overall picks up, which we're hoping will start again from FY 2025, we should see a very good momentum in Farm Machinery. And our ability to get better prices is already going up.
So our, our path is maybe in a year and a half or 2, we should start making money in this. We still, still not get the margins at the level that we have on tractor. That's gonna take a while. But if you look at the profit pool of some of the Farm Machinery players who are doing reasonably okay on scale, it is not that bad. They're all double digit, they're all double-digit margin players. The data is available for the two, three key players who are out there. So, the profit pool in the industry is not bad at all. It's just that we, we need to go through a path of scale up, given that there's a huge opportunity for us, and we need to leverage our right to win and have that space.
So, we'll need to make an investment on pricing for a couple of years till we get there.
On realizations?
Realizations of-
In the-
-of tractor?
Yeah.
Or...
In this Q4, we saw a good bump up.
Yeah, I think in a way, that was the previous question as well, which is, so we did take some price increase.
Mix improvement.
Mix improved, and we had a little benign commodity outlook, which helped the margin.
Okay.
Just one other thing I'll add to it is, Farm Machinery, while we've talked about it broadly as one category, has multiple categories within that, and it's about scale in every category, and we'll continue to refine it further as we go forward. So rotavators, for example, we are now at a 21% market share, which is a very significant increase from the sub-10% market share we had when we started this exercise. And that starts with having the right product. The right product, the right price point, in some cases, distribution that's different from our farm dealerships as well. Similarly, harvesters is a category that we're targeting now, and, in the current crop cycle, we should see a much greater share for harvesters.
So we are picking specific categories and starting to create scale in those categories, and as we build scale, then you start getting a much better pricing. Rotavators, for example, you know, our 21% market share is not enough. The basic question we have is, in each category, why can we not get to a 40% market share that we have in tractors? So that's what we are driving. As we drive that, that category will start giving results for us.
Great. All right, so I have two additional items just to close out this evening. So first of all, just a reminder, fourteenth of June is our Investor Day. I can assure you, it's not going to be presentations the whole day. You're going to see some of these amazing products we talked about. There is a tech showcase plan, which is going to show you both the BEVs, Oja, many of the exciting products that we talked about today, as well as in our Growth Gems. You know, so some of the ways we are using technology, et cetera. You'll also get a lot of time to ask questions of our leaders, so there's dedicated time by business to ask questions.
So I just want to encourage again, whoever is not registered, to just, please register for that event. And then the last thing is just, I wanted to thank Manoj. You know, it's, as Anish mentioned, his, last day as CFO, and next time he'll be answering the questions as the CEO. So congratulations to him, and thank you for all these years here. All right. With that, thank you very much. There are refreshments, and, I would,