...Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q2 FY 2025 analyst conference call of Newgen Software Technologies Limited, hosted by ICICI Securities. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mrs. Aditi Patil from ICICI Securities. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, Del. Good evening, and welcome you all to the Q2 FY twenty-five earnings call of Newgen Software Technologies. It's my pleasure to introduce the senior management team of Newgen, who are here with us today to discuss the results. We have with us Mr. Diwakar Nigam, Chairman and Managing Director, Mr. T.S. Varadarajan, Full-Time Director, Mr. Virender Jeet, Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Arun Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, and Ms. Deepti Mehra, Head, Investor Relations. I now hand over the call to Ms. Deepti for further proceedings. Thank you, and over to you, Deepti.
Thank you, Aditi. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Q2 FY 2025 results of Newgen. Before we move on to the discussion, let me highlight that this call may contain certain forward-looking statements concerning Newgen's future business prospects and profitability, which are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties, and the actual results could materially vary from the forward-looking statements. Past performance may not be indicative of future performance. The company does not undertake to make any announcement in case any of these forward-looking statements become materially incorrect or update any forward-looking statement made from time to time by or on behalf of the company. For any further details, you may please refer to the investor relations section of our website. I will now hand over to Mr. Varadarajan for presentation of results, which will be followed by a Q&A. Thank you.
Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us for review of our Q2 FY 2025 performance. Newgen delivered another strong quarter, driven by continued momentum across our key markets. Revenue for the quarter reached INR 361 crore, representing a 23% YoY growth. Revenues in EMEA region witnessed a growth of 21% YoY, and India region grew by 19%. APAC continues to be strong for the second consecutive quarter, with 53% YoY growth. We believe these markets will continue to be a sustainable driver of long-term growth. Revenue growth in US region was at 17% YoY, as we continue to work on our restructured strategy of tapping larger accounts in that market. We saw a substantial increase in license plays during the quarter, witnessing a growth of 52% YoY, followed by implementation revenues.
Annuity revenues grew, were at INR 205 crore. While banking and financial services continue to be our core vertical, we saw an increased traction in the insurance and government segment in the quarter. One of the most significant growth areas this quarter was cross-selling within our existing customer base. We continue to see customer expanding their adoption of our platform and solutions. This is a testament to the value of our platform offer and the trust our customer place in u s a strategic partner. We closed many significant deals during the quarter, which include a project of about INR 25 crore from a large insurance company in India for building their System of Engagement. Providing Enterprise Content Management solution to one of the top financial institution in U.S., with an aggregate order of value of about $1.5 million.
Received an order from a leading financial leasing company in Saudi Arabia with an order value of $1.5 million for Loan Origination and Collection System. In India, we received an order from a large infrastructure financing services company with a value of INR 16.9 crore. In APAC, we entered into a contract with Singapore's leading financial institutions. We added eight new logos in Q2. Coming to our products and solutions, we are seeing continuous traction across our existing accelerator line, including Customer Onboarding, SME Lending, Supply Chain Finance, Payment Hub, and Trade Finance. As part of our ongoing efforts to strengthen Newgen's footprint in the Middle East market, we have launched the Islamic Retail and SME Financing tool. In India, our focus has been on expanding our presence in the Captive Finance segment, particularly with our leasing capabilities.
During the quarter, we released new versions of our Enterprise Content Management products, which are OmniDocs and OmniExtract. We also enhanced Video KYC, an essential part of all digital onboarding processes. We also increased NewgenONE Marvin APEX Edition. This is expected to further streamline complex workflows, enhance customer engagement, and ensure secure AI integration. We continue to receive accolades and analyst recognition. During the quarter, we were recognized in Forrester's Task-Centric Automation Software Landscape for Q3 2024. We were also recognized among notable vendors in the Content Platform Landscape of Q3 2024. We remain focused on executing our long-term strategy and building key competencies across our product lines and customer-facing and implementation teams. As businesses increasingly embrace digital platform transformation, we are ensuring that we are all well positioned to support them with the right skills, expertise, and product innovation.
We continue to invest and build internal capabilities in critical areas such as AI, GenAI, and machine learning, which are becoming essential to modern enterprise software. We continue to invest in and develop our global workforce and their training and development programs, continue to work on our strategic partnership with leading technology firms and industry alliances. During the quarter, we announced continuation of our strategic partnership in Fad ata , a trusted core insurance solution provider. The partnership is aimed at helping insurers achieve centralized systems and effectively handle complex and content-rich processes. On profits and margin, we witnessed a growth of in profit and expanded margin. Profit after tax was at INR 70 crore for the quarter, witnessing a growth of 47% YoY. Our increased investment in competency development is reflected in our R&D and sales and marketing expenses.
R&D expenses were at 9% of revenues for the quarter, and sales and marketing expenses were 22%. On the balance sheet front, our net trade receivables were at INR 442 crore as of 30th September 2024, which resulted in net DSO of 117 days. For the sixth month period, our revenues were at INR 676 crore, witnessing a growth of 24%. Profit after tax was at INR 118 crore, witnessing a growth of 51%. As we look ahead, we remain focused on driving innovation, expanding at cross-selling opportunities, adding new logos, and continuing to grow profitably. Thank you very much. We are now open for QA.
Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Ruchi Mukhija from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Congratulations on good set of numbers. I have two questions. Firstly, if you look at the APAC has seen 50% plus growth for second consecutive quarter, especially also this recent growth for second consecutive quarter. This appears to be supported by a large project ramp up. So is this ramp up complete or likely to continue in the near future?
Hey, Ruchi, thank you. Thank you for your question. You are right, so what has happened, APAC has grown this year on a base which was weaker last year, and predominantly in both the quarters, we have got substantial license deals out there, so these are typically wins which have resulted in a higher growth rate on that. Also, the orders which we have received are in the process of execution. They will be executed over the next eighteen months, and they will have, you know, a long tail revenue with them, but predominantly to reflect on the growth of the H1 is on account of license wins and new logo acquisitions out there in that market.
Understood. Secondly, in the annuity-based revenue this quarter registered 14% YoY growth, which is softer and has fallen below 20% mark after 10 quarters. So could you explain the reason and how to think about the trajectory going forward?
Yeah, I think this is slightly more complex to, you know, discuss because, there are two, factors driving that. One is predominantly our shift in U.S. from lower accounts to larger accounts, and also we have closed down a lot of existing accounts in small values, which is typical contributors towards the annuity. That's one part of it. So unless the momentum of, logo acquisition starts in U.S., the annuity, new logo acquisition on annuity side will be softer because most of the other markets, the sales is happening still on the perpetual side. The second contributing factor is that if you look at deeper the data, you look at the ATS growth, it has been muted compared to historical levels.
And this is on account of a lot of large wins over the last, you know, at least five quarters, are typically very long-tail businesses. Their execution cycles have stretched. Thus, our ability to start realizing the ATS revenues have been, you know, limited out there. But we are hopeful that this quarter, next quarter, we should be able to, you know, close some of those deals and the ATS bucket should grow for, you know...
... So as Newgen has pivoted to larger deal sizes, they have correspondingly reflected in larger execution cycles and have slightly delayed our realization of our subscription revenues. So two factors, mature market sales, especially in US on licenses, which is slightly less than our, you know, the run rate of our business, and longer business and execution cycles, which have moved in over the years. We think it's a transient affair. It may last for one or two or three quarters, but I think we should, the nature of the business is it keeps on compounding annuity, irrespective of what we do. So I think as a matter, it may, we may be able to recover it in one or two quarters and come back to a healthier growth rate of annuity.
Okay. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aditi Patil from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. So, I have a question on order books. How has the order book grown in FY 2025, and can you give some color on deal pipeline?
Yes, so, Aditi, thank you for your question, so order book, generally, you know, if I, if I remember the numbers right, has grown roughly around 20, 22% for H1, for this part of the year, which is, and also you should understand this is not the pending order book. Some part of it will be executed and some would be also pending to be execution, but if you look at just linear order book growth, that has been roughly around 22% for H1. On the pipeline side, I, I think broadly, as you see the business, we have, the traditional markets, they continue to grow. The deal sizes keep on going bigger, as well as our financial services base is becoming slightly wider with the offerings like trade or service business management. They're making the, you know, the offerings wider.
But what is more interesting and what we are excited about to slightly diversify it, is getting more business in insurance and government. We have invested some amount of energy in last two quarters in building capabilities and by ramping up sales teams. And we think the insurance and the government also in subsequent quarters should start contributing in a meaningful way to the business. So we are very excited about the whole funnel and especially about the new initiatives we are launching in that.
Okay. Sir, this insurance vertical growth, are you really seeing that across your traditional and developed markets? And, have you launched any new products in pipeline with respect to insurance?
Absolutely, so when we take a vertical, we have completely looked at the potential of that vertical across all markets, and I think we are investing in building solutions and what we call accelerator products in all markets, in terms of looking at integrations and local ecosystems, looking at integration with third-party systems or core insurance providers, so we have really built product lines which are more fitted for these each individual market separately. Because what happens in enterprise core product, a lot of integration ecosystem changes from market to market, and also the digital stacks change from market to market, so we have invested, and the work is still going on. It's not that we have completed all the product lines, but we are ready to go to the market with them in most of these use cases.
We are opening up pipelines in APAC. We have started building pipeline in India. U.S. is showing some early signs of good, healthy pipeline, though we've not closed a new insurance deal out there so far, but we do expect in next two quarters, we should be able to have some good wins out there. So it's broad-based, and we are building it as one more, like, exactly like banking. We want to build over multiple years, a larger vertical for us.
Okay. Got it. And, can you talk about your progress on winning large clients in U.S., and how many new logo additions have been in U.S. in this quarter?
Yeah. So on the U.S., I would broadly summarize it in work in progress. And, though we have, as I told you, on the large client side, we have already got deals. So the ability to, you know, get these customers and as well as our products being helpful to those customers has been established. But the deal velocity in U.S. is slightly muted. It's a bit slow. We are still hoping that both the insurance and banking, as well as health initiatives in U.S., start firing in Q2, so second half of this year, and we are able to get some more deals. But right now, I would classify it in work in progress rather than...
Right now, the business is still relying heavily on our emerging markets, and we are hoping that our investments in mature markets start showing results in next two quarters.
Okay. Okay, got it. And so we have seen a strong traction in banking in India and EMEA, but this quarter, the banking revenue, if you see YoY growth is slightly lower than the company average growth. So should this traction in banking sustain in the medium term, like, can you give some commentary on that?
Yeah. So I think, you know, it's a quarterly growth rate is a factor of many things. We don't, as a company level, see any change in the market dynamics right now or the opportunity funnel size. On a single quarter, one license deal can change the number from 17% to 27%. So I think that's why the quarterly, the numbers are still... Having said that, the kind of momentum which was there for last two years on financial services, especially in India, has been slightly because we have also penetrated in a lot of accounts and now we are diversifying in other solutions, like we talked about Captive Finance. And we are looking at still larger deals in trade and Captive Finance area.
So I think some of those deals will start coming in the second half of this year, and we should be able to recover the growth rate. In Middle East, again, I think Saudi is still not showing any signs of weakness. We are out there really, really working on very large deals. Some of them should come in now. I would broadly say that right now I don't see any concerns that there is any kind of a slowdown or a momentum shift in financial services in India and the Middle East.
Okay. And I had one last question on so what has been the response for the Lumen GenAI product which was launched last quarter? And in general, on AI and GenAI, like, what has been the response of your clients?
See, the client, there's an enormous interest in every industry and every opportunity around AI in general, and also lately, generative AI in specific. So our ability to, you know, drive these use cases through AI is really showing a great traction in it, and also opening new kind of opportunities in these accounts. Having said that, you know, there's also a kind of a, what you call, there's an interest, and then there is business. So the interest should translate into business downstream. So we do see opportunities, all opportunities having a strong flavor of AI, but we don't see opportunity yet just which are completely AI, AI-led. So you have lending which has to be transformed through AI, but you will not have an AI use case independently running in the market. Too many of those we don't see.
Health, both in claims and onboarding, there are great use cases of AI and GenAI which we are servicing. We have recently tapped into an industry which is about what we call regulatory frameworks and how GenAI can support those regulatory. I think we are building a strong funnel on that. So it's a work in progress, I would say, but without AI today or GenAI being in the first two slides of any corporate presentation on any account, I don't think we will do a great job. Customer is demanding that to be at central to all the use cases we've implemented.
Okay. Okay, okay. Yeah, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants that you may press Star and One to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Pranay Roop Chatterjee from Burman Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, thank you for allowing me to speak. Good evening. Am I audible?
Yeah, Pranay, please go ahead.
Great. Great. Sir, this is the first time I'm interacting with your business. So if you could just help me, and my first question is basically trying to understand your business. I've gone through all the public filings, but if you could just in simple words, for someone who doesn't belong to the sector, help me understand what is the type of client you're trying to serve and what is the exact problem you are solving for them, right? And, I've seen your R&D is also high and you have various patents, so what is the IP that differentiates your business? If you could just help me understand in simple words.
Yeah, Pranay, I'll try. It's a, this is a long story, but I'll try to... Okay. So Pranay, predominantly, we are a software product company. That's why you see, you see a huge investment in R&D as well as patents, that's a part of. So all our sales across whatever vertical or whatever solution we are talking, is led by sale of our software licenses. And then which eventually ends up followed up with other revenue streams, like, what we call services, implementation, support, or any other thing of that. So predominantly a license-based business. The end customers which we are targeting are generally enterprises, the larger enterprises. So our sales model is B2B, it's typically an enterprise sales model. And the kind of problems which we solve for these enterprises are in financial services, is the larger part, almost 70% of our business come.
So we end up solving problems about customer servicing, things like how a loan is processed, how a loan is approved, how an account is opened. So we sit between their core infrastructure, their systems, and their users, where users whether they're internal, external, and orchestrate their journeys. So predominantly, a bank would look us for us to orchestrate and modernize their digital journey for whether in any process, whether in customer service or customer origination, or any more complex processes like trade. That's our business. The same product is sold to all customers and all use cases predominantly, with frameworks of implementing the customer's use case over there. So I have the same product being sold to insurance, banks, government, health, or any other segment. So that, I will stop here because explaining the business beyond that will take much more larger time.
Got it, sir. That does justice. So then continuing from that, would you say you're in a space where which is highly cooperative and you have to, you know, fight for a contract with multiple clients? Or is this a space where you are relying on specific solutions that you are developing for specific clients, and hence the focus is essentially just on business development, that is, signing new clients, and then you build specific solutions? Like, how is this market that you operate in look like?
So any product, so basically the product space we operate is called broadly enterprise content management, business process management. This is a contested space. It's a product space, so platform products are generally companies who have been there for 15, 20 years, they operate. Every such area, we have 4 or 5 global players who compete with us. And then what, depending on what markets and what use cases you are strong with, you end up becoming, having more stronger muscle to sell in out there. So it is typically a, you know, for all purposes, it's a sales and marketing led initiatives to go and sell, with R&D-based core product as a differentiator of how you're solving your problems with that. So it's a compa...
It's a highly competitive space, and you differentiate by your ability of your product and your ability of your team to service the use case.
Perfect, sir, so my last question is, what does a typical contract that you sign entail, right, so let's take the largest segment, which is your BFSI space, and a typical contract, which is like, something that you do more often than not. How, like, how large a contract are we talking about that you usually target in terms of range? What is the contract life, and what is the recurring portion in that contract? Like, which streams are recurring, and do you see over time or do you focus on increasing the recurring portion, you know, in your revenues? Is that, is that even possible?
Yeah, so, right, basically, what our deals generally earn on average, when we enter an account, vary between somewhere around $700,000 to $2 million. On average, there are larger deals and then there are smaller, but this is an average framework. All deals initially are roughly around 60% license fee and some 40%, which is called implementation charges, which is to configure the system for the user. Beyond that, there's a 20% annuity which customer pays on this fee to maintain and support, have right to upgrade. Thus, the nature of the business is every time you end up selling, you end up creating some compounding effect.
As long as the percentage share of your license to your revenue stays in the healthy, you know, ratio that every deal you are making 50%-60% license share, your annual annuity keeps on growing at a better rate than your growth rate. But if your, if your, service revenues become larger, then the annuity does compound, but does not compound at the same rate. So the nature of any software license or a subscription business is that annuity compounding does happen. Does that answer your question?
Yes, sir, that answers my question very well. Thanks a lot for being patient, and great set of numbers. All the best. Thank you.
Thank you, Javid.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mihir Manohar from Carnelian Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for giving the opportunity, and congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, largely wanted to understand the Newgen Lumen side. So if you could throw some color as to which area is this particular offering exactly trying to solve? Is it trade finance, is it working capital? You know, if you can just throw some color on what is the use case and application over here, that will be helpful. And second question was on the restructured strategy. I mean, you mentioned that the restructured strategy of tapping larger accounts is playing out well. So if you know you can throw some color around the internal KPIs that we are tracking to get more confidence on this thing.
Yeah, thanks for asking that. So first off, on the Lumen, predominantly, I can tell you what the product does and where we target it. Predominantly, what Lumen is a product which lets you know use the traditional machine learning, but exposes it through a generative UI interface. So that you could almost do a what you call brainstorming, or you could do a very interactive discussion with the end business systems you have. So where we position it, we are right now positioning it wherever the customers find opportunities to either segment their information for cross-sell and up-sell. So discovering which has the right opportunities for cross-sell. So we have a variant of Lumen, which we call Hopper, which is used in retail. Lumen, we are targeting predominantly financial services for cross-selling and up-selling.
So that is where the broad, but the product is very horizontal. It can be applied to many use cases, but we are trying to go to market initially on these use cases. So predominant usage is going to be in retail journeys or in the journeys like collection. We are not using right now on trade. Trade we have very different product, which is about document analytics. You know, that's a very different product. So that's about the Lumen. On the shift of strategy, I think what predominantly, if you look at the KPIs internal and linking it to internal goals and KPIs, our core strategy has been on two things. One is about changing increasing our average deal sizes every year, and then also getting the number of logos from mature markets.
That broadly, because that ties up into the, in terms of what we want to do. What we have shifted out is that we have shifted out from ability, you know, to what you call, in terms of giving options for our salespeople to go and sell at a lower price, in terms of, certain accounts. That means they have to pivot towards larger accounts to make those larger deals. When you look at last three years' data, our new logo acquisition or number of deals in general, has been always flat, but we have grown at about 25% consistently on that. And the reason it is that, because we have changed the per deal size about that. So the KPI is not based on the strategy of shifting out.
The KPI is more based on the revenue and number of logos and the, how the revenue in terms of annuity ratios of those, logos come in. But the result of all that is that, finally, we have to make sure that we are able to get business sizes up in these geos too. What has happened is that the traditional markets have responded very well to that, and we have got much larger deals in Saudi, much larger deals in India, APAC, US, we have got the inroads in some large accounts, but we have not had the follow-up sales at the same velocity as in these markets. So that's why you see the market lagging at between 15, 17, 18% of growth. So it is not matched with, growth rate of that.
Having said that, we are hopeful that in next two quarters we should be both insurance, health, and banking, you know, kicking in slightly. We should be able to get some more new logos and build the momentum.
Sure. Yeah, that's it from my side. Thank you.
Thank you, Mihir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mohit from Oculus Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, so I wanted to ask that in your opening sentence, you said that you guys are seeing good traction from the government and the insurance sector, and after that, you said that you have cracked some large deal, worth INR 25 crore from insurance company, so firstly, are you in talks with some other insurance company, and-
... As you said, you are seeing a good traction from insurance sector, so does this INR 25 crore order categorize the large portion of that inquiry which you are seeing, or you are seeing from other players also?
So thanks, Mohit. So Mohit, when I say that we are looking at government and insurance sector, we are looking at building. If you look at today's revenue share of government and insurance in the company, is less than 20% of the overall business. So our aim is to make it so much larger, which we want the government and insurance together probably to reach around 40% of our business. Which does not mean that it is tied to one deal. So the deal we are talking of, insurance is a large deal, but that is not what we are referring to. We are referring to the broader funnel which we are building across markets like India, Middle East, APAC, and US insurance.
And also the initiatives of government, especially in markets like Singapore, Saudi, Kuwait, and, you know, and some of that also in India, which we are hopeful that the market will recover in. So we are talking these as a broader strategies to really build sizable businesses in these areas. And what we are excited about is the funnel which we are starting to build in these cases, and some of the early interest and early wins we have got in that. We closed the deal of insurance this time in Middle East. We closed a deal of insurance in India, of that. So these are two good deals, and they are sizable deals. Similarly, we closed the deal of government, one in Middle East, and we expect next quarter also to have some more strong momentum on this.
That we expect this to be a, you know, a kind of a growth driver going forward.
Okay. And, also this INR 25 crore deal which you have signed with some large insurance company, is this from the Middle East region or is this from India?
This deal is from India. This is from India market. A part of this revenue has come in as license and but the subsequent part will be executed over the next 18 months.
So it's an 18-month project?
Yeah.
Okay. And, my second question is that, in the Middle East sector, in the Middle East market, you said that you want to grow and you are seeing some good footprints there. So, wanted to know that which area or which region are you specifically targeting, and in which domain do you want to grow your footprint?
Mohit, we are already in Middle East in a large way, and it also almost gives us 37% of business. We are almost established in all countries. So there's no new region, it is the same region. So but the business, predominant business, which we do, is from countries like UAE, Saudi, then some out of business from Oman. Then we are also looking at Qatar and Kuwait as the market. Beyond that, also, Africa countries like Nigeria, Ghana, they have been strong countries for us, and Kenya. Kenya, we have got at least six of the top ten banks. So we are looking exactly the same market, but we are also looking at more use cases in this banking, as well as getting more revenue in insurance and other services.
Okay. Okay. Thank you so much, sir, and all the best.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants that you may press Star and One to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Mohit Motwani from Tara Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Can you hear me the business? I have two questions from my end. One is on your US mature market side, on the mature market side, you said the US is lately showing some weakness. So just wanted to understand if this weakness has been experienced industry-wide across all other of your peers as well, or is it as it, and is it because of the tough macros? And that is the first question. And secondly, you know, some of the IT service companies have, you know, spoken about some green shoots and recovery around the BFSI space.
Now, is it that the spending on software products, you know, comes on a lower pecking order for these banking companies in these US markets, or how, how does it work there? If you can, you know, shed some color on around this. Thank you.
So Mohit, thank you. So first of all, Mohit, you know, our peers operate slightly in a wider and a very different business than we are still in a product business focused on typically transformative products where typically while, well, our peers look at the larger business and their business is more mapped directly to the industry. Having said that, there are two things. One, as we are pivoted to larger accounts, then our peer accounts and our accounts tend to be same, so their behavior tends to be same. So, you know, they have the same problems, if they're not spending, then they're not spending also on new initiatives. So I hope that there's a correlation on that.
But today also, at the size we are and the kind of challenges we take for ourselves in terms of growth rate, we need. We still think that we are decoupled from a larger problem in the industry. We need to first make sure that we establish ourselves, get our first five, 10 large banks in and then replicate from that. Then we can look at once the accounts are very large, then we can look at whether we are connected. So I don't really... I'm not the right person to answer that, because we don't operate in the industry of our peers. We are still a very niche product company, solving problems, very specific problems to our customers on that. So green shoots of BFSI, again, I have the same opinion.
We have been always the customer's interest in the product, kind of which we propose, has been always there. What we have, we have found challenges in our ability to close in terms of the conclusion of those deals happening. That's taken very, you know, large time. So I'm sure if the market and the economy overall recover, some, if some amount of business cycles become fast, then we should be able to see better results. But beyond that, you know, I really don't have that much of insight into what's happening broadly in the market.
Sure. Thank you, and one more last question: So, today, you know, your revenues are largely, you know, linked to banking side of things. Do you expect that this mix will change in the coming years, and your insurance and other verticals will gain up in proportion to the overall revenues in the coming years?
Yeah, we have seen it on an integrated plan to, you know, kind of build the insurance and government business to a largest number. But having said that, we still think that banking will keep on being the largest segment, whether it's 75% or become 60% of the market, that will depend on how fast we can scale the other businesses along with that. But the idea is exactly to at least have a substantial dollar value coming from insurance as well as government.
Sure. Thank you for answering my questions. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rahul Jain from Dolat Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Just trying to understand what initiatives we are taking to ensure that our pipeline continue to enhance, given that we grow by 25%, ballpark, and the size of it also in terms of scaling up the deal sizes, what initiatives we are taking? Because as it becomes a slightly larger organization than what we were a couple of years ago, we need to increase the size of the deal to ensure that, with the similar win rates, we end up growing much larger entity. So any initiatives on these fronts that you could talk about?
Rahul, thank you for your question. So predominantly, what it is for, you know, for us, the way it has worked in the past is exactly what we are doing in the future. We, as we are deeper into the verticals, we end up creating more and new solutions and making our offerings very wider, especially if you look at banking or insurance. We have more products to offer. So one amount of our deals are basically the products which we have created, whether it's Captive Finance, digital lending platform, trade finance. These itself tend to be larger deal sizes. And then we have opportunity to not only go and upsell it in our accounts, but also, we go and address, sell the same thing to the new logos.
So one way of increasing our funnel or deal size or what we call the overall coverage, is to create more offerings in the same verticals. The second thing, which is predominantly driven our way, investment in sales and marketing, which is a substantial investment, is to go wider in the market. And so, because still globally, there are more than 50,000 banks, we are hardly in any number, so there's a huge market to be captured. So we do both from geo expansion, we look at more, many better penetration. In that cases, we are doubling down on initiatives which are really helpful to do, lead generation in that. The two larger things which give returns on every company today is digital. So our digital budgets keep on growing, our digital plans in terms of enhancing, how can we get more of inbound through digital channels?
Second is typically being in front of the customer. That is our ability to be in analyst quadrants, all the events, industry coverages. That is what we are doubling on. You know, we are increasing our budgets in marketing, our go-to-market activities, so that we are having the largest funnel. So one is the broader coverage of the market, I think, and second is typically deeper penetration into each of those accounts by having more solution offerings. These things have really worked for us over the last four, five, seven years, and that's what we keep on doing.
So, yeah, one interesting point that you mentioned is that, you know, mining the same account by scaling up, more offerings within the same customer base. So have you seen several such influences where people might have started with a smaller deal, but then we have sold them loan origination or trade supply or bigger products, compared to the process offering that we initially used to sell a couple of years back? I'm sure there are good case study, but are there meaningful upsell that would have happened? Anything that you could share on that front?
So, Rahul, exactly, that's core of our business. So if you look at our growth targets of next year, we almost rely on 50% of that growth coming from upsell to our existing accounts. And that's historically, if you look at also today, number of deals which we count. When we talk of new logos, we may have, anywhere between 10 to 13, 15 logos a quarter. But then if you look at deals, we may have more than 25 deals in a quarter, and those other 12 deals are in the existing accounts. And those existing account deals are of sizable deals. And I think if you look at, even the disclosures which come in terms of materiality, they're equally spread, both in new deals as well as existing deals.
So there's a good evidence and history and that this is the core of our business, our ability to go and upsell. We remember accounts which started with a kind of an annual revenue of a crore, a large bank now going up to annual revenue of INR 20 crore -INR 25 crore. And this is what happened in one account, this happened in at least tens of accounts for us.
Yeah, Jeet, I completely understand what you said, and we appreciate that. What I was specifically referring to, some of your larger offerings that have become more recent, for example, like trade, supply or loan origination. I mean to say cases where the deals were much bigger, relative to your historical benchmarks.
Yeah, so I think 80% of the large deals, both for trade or digital lending, have come to existing accounts, and 20% have come to new loans.
Right. And there are more win rates even after going live, because that is what would be the key metrics, whether they... are they moving from one module to more, something like that?
Exactly. So I think that's, that's it. So because if they become stale, they are not going to buy the next product from us. So every two to three years, you have another very large deal happening, but even between that two to three years, there are other components being sold, whether they are horizontal product components or other smaller solution components.
Appreciate it. Thanks. That's it from my side.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants that you may press star and One to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Dikshan from DV Wealth. Please go ahead.
Hi. Congratulations on great numbers, sir. So my first question, so my first question is basically, since we are so much catered to the banking side of the business, and we have helped them grow in a lot of ways, that's why they keep giving us good, bigger deals. Can you just highlight, one or two particular products that help our clients grow, that's why they are coming back to us? The idea of asking this question is for we can understand that what makes them keep coming back to us and growing this, so that we can, you know, make this cycle bigger and bigger as the time goes by.
Okay. So, yeah, so just one way to explain is to understand what we sell. Predominantly, what we sell to the enterprise is a system which is called... Our product is called NewgenONE or iBPS and OmniDocs. This sits between core banking, where all other systems and all other people and interfaces. So what happens is, any digital transformation project which they take, that is broadly implemented on this platform, for most of the use cases. Once you implement the use case, the way that they are buying this is they are buying this platform to make sure that they don't have too many softwares and too many vendors. If you are able to make a successful case, it becomes natural to go and implement another case on the same platform, because finally it's typically a low-code way of doing it.
It's loosely coupled, it's built for change, rather than going and buying point solutions, so our story and journey for all these 15 years has been that once you have become, you've implemented a product which the bank's users or insurance users are using, whenever there's a next opportunity to transform the journey or transform the journey in another area of business, they end up leveraging the same platform, so we end up getting an ability to go and upsell more licenses because of usage, as well as the customer ends up using the same infrastructure and leverage the same knowledge base, which is around the system for other products, so the examples would be if you look at 10 years back, we were selling some things like around systems of centralization or what we call a BPM or a workflow systems.
From that, we pivoted to a lot of systems where we sold around what you call digital onboarding. These days, it's our end-to-end digital, retail or trade or service request management or collection systems. So these are examples. Most of our market, clients, you will at least have three or four of such solutions rather than one.
So if I'm understanding this right, is this, so but basically, we are selling them a better efficiency for their team rather than helping them gain their sales directly. So it's indirectly because their efficiency is growing, their team is able to make more sales by increased efficiency. Is that the idea?
Yeah, so basically, we are directly putting systems in, so basically, we end up selling where the customer is implementing systems for growth.
Mm-hmm.
The growth is grown out of two things. I think ten years back it was driven around centralization. It is about efficiency, you know, what you call turnaround times. Nowadays, it is about build around engagement, straight through, low touch, no touch. So can you reach customer? Can you, you know, solve a loan in half a day? Can you open account immediately?
Got it.
So again, you need an orchestration. So if to open an account instantly, you need to reach the customer, you need to orchestrate the journey, you need to integrate with all the digital stack, you need to implement complex workflows and complex rule engine through a single platform. So this is exactly what we do.
Okay. My last question is on our general cycle, on our profitability and growth cycle. So on the accounts, we see, so the second half of the financial year, we have more sales and, earnings realizations. Is that correct, or, is it, am I looking at it the other way?
So I think this business is slightly backended towards Q3 and Q4, where larger license deals end up happening. I'd say it's a history of every software license product company which has perpetual license. So roughly around our distribution today is roughly between somewhere 42-44% in H1, and between, you know, the corresponding remaining in the H2 part of that. So we do expect that even this year it's going to be slightly backended on that. And, but as the company becomes bigger, I think this whole queue is slightly shifting and reducing slowly.
Got it. Can I ask a follow-up question, please?
Please go ahead.
So the growth that we are expecting and that we are so much focusing on, you said that we don't focus on new logos as much rather than we focus on, you know, making our existing business grow. In the next three years, is the goal remaining the same, that we are going to focus more on existing logos? Or is it going to be much more that we will now focus on getting new customers? Or is it in tandem, both things are gonna go side by side?
Yeah, it's just I think probably you got me wrong on that. I think what I said, the potential is large in existing accounts and we have an ability to grow, but our predominant effort in sales and marketing is for new logo acquisition. I think we measure our success by our ability to win new logos... and because that is where our largest because once you win a logo, all other stories unfold. You are able to sell, you are able to upsell, cross-sell. But if you don't end up selling to new logos, you will not be able to grow beyond a particular point. You can grow for short term. So our whole focus is predominantly, you can say 70% is on new logo acquisition and 30% is on mining.
Beautiful. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you so much. Best of luck to the team.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Chirag Kachhadiya from Ashika Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Congratulations on a good set of numbers. I have a couple of questions. So, you exactly guiding that we have an intention to reach around $500 million kind of revenue in next couple of years. Is that still intact? And by what year we aspire to be there on the milestone which we spoken earlier? And second, the number of logo addition which we are providing every quarter in the presentation, how many of them are active and doing business on regular basis, at aggregate level, whichever logo we have disclosed so far in the presentation? And third, what average engagement size are we looking whenever we empaneled any logo with us, and even from the current empaneled logos and from potential one? Yeah, that's all from my side. Thanks.
So, Chirag, thanks. So you know, our ability to reach $500 million depends on our ability to execute. The business has got enough potential. The market segment and the addressable space for us is quite large, and we have seen peer companies in other markets, especially in geo markets, in geos like U.S., have reached revenues of $500 million, $1 billion, and they have started almost either slightly earlier than us or slightly later than us. So the market potential is there. We have grown aggressive plans for ourselves. We have aligned the strategy for that, and we are aggressively investing on that. As the results start unfolding, as the areas start giving us returns, you will see that the revenue mix, and we hope that our growth rate start accelerating from even the current growth rates out there.
But pinpointing exactly a date and year is something which is. It's an aspirational plan. We have to translate that aspirational plan to execution, but we have not completely translated into a target and number of years. So, I think you will. If you track the story, I'm sure that in next three, four years, you will see that we are not very far from there. On the logo retention, the number of new logos is there or whatever number of logos are the logos which are giving us business, that's how we count it, and we don't count anything else who does not give us business. Our retention rates are pretty high for all businesses which are sizable size. So anybody who's giving us a recurring business of 50 lakh, we almost will have 95%-98% retention.
So on the smaller logos, or what you call partners which are pivoting up, there's a higher churn rate. But roughly, I think today we may have somewhere between 520-540 clients, which are typically, you will see, they will keep on growing by 20-30 clients every year as we are now pivoting to more larger deals. Our engagement size, our preference of engagement size is broadly to understand that we generate at least an annuity of $100K-$200K. So that means any deal between $500K-$700K to start with, going up to $2 million is the sweet spot where we do business today. But then there are deals which are sometimes smaller than that or predominantly larger than that. So that's where we are.
I hope that answers your question.
Yes, this will answer all the question. Just one follow-up, if I can. So, going forward, the healthcare practice, what percentage are we looking to, you know, have in overall pie? Is similar to the portion that we have at BFSI right now, or, the second order will remain, on healthcare side rather than BFSI one?
You know, we are primarily looking at three verticals. One is banking, and several other is insurance and healthcare. Also we look at health insurance market. It is not healthcare as a segment. When we say healthcare, it's about payers, and predominantly in U.S., this market is more active out there. These markets we expect to get as multimillion dollar businesses, but still we think the banking is going to be predominant, large number. They may struggle to reach the size of banking unless we really hit the jackpot about some industry and we replicate very fast. I hope that insurance, including insurance, health, and government, should be sizable and material businesses for us. We do expect in the next three to four years, they come very close to banking.
Maybe they both together become equal to the size of banking.
Thank you so much. All the very best.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. We have reached the end of our question and answer session. I would now like to hand the conference over to Ms. Deepti Mehra, Head of Investor Relations, for closing comments.
Thank you so, so much everyone for joining us for the call. For any further questions, you can connect with me or you can go to our website. Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of ICICI Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.