Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Nuvama Wealth Management Limited Q4 FY2025 earnings conference call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ashish Kehair, Managing Director and CEO, Nuvama Wealth Management Limited. Thank you and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Thank you, Moderator. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. Happy to welcome you to the Q4 conference call of Nuvama. As usual, I have with me my colleague Bharat, our Group CFO, and the SGA team, our Investor Relations Advisor. I'll quickly give a brief overview on the quarterly performance and a bit of macro, and then maybe Bharat can take you through the detailed numbers, and then we can jump into the Q&A. Starting with the numbers, I think headline level, happy to state that on all input-output parameters, the year has been truly a breakout year for us. Client assets grew by about 24%, revenue for the year by about 41%, and profits by about 65%. We closed the year with about INR 986 crores of PAT.
Both the cost-to-income ratio coming down, in the sense the profit margins went up, and the ROE substantially improved from about 23.6% to 31.5%. I think before moving into the business, it's worthwhile to talk about the year in terms of the macro. First half, as we all know, was actually extremely bullish from a market perspective. Markets went up significantly, and correspondingly, a lot of supply started coming into the market by way of IPOs, QIPs, blocks, insider selling. But I think somewhere around the middle of the year, things started to change. Liquidity tightening to the tune of about INR 3.5 lakh crores happened. RBI rightfully got worried about the rising unsecured and microfinance loans. And I think in order to contain any prospective damage, they actually tightened the rules around both NBFCs and banks. And due to the general elections, I think government also postponed their spending.
So all this, along with, I think, dollar strengthening, heavy supply in the primary market, and simultaneously selling by FPIs in the secondary market, the tonality of the market changed in the second half. So if you see from September through February, the markets continuously kept coming down. And as a result of it, I think cyclically things changed. So I think two, three things happened. Elections got over, so government started spending. The policy pivots also changed. I think the regulatory bodies, both the regulatory bodies saw the change at their help. RBI essentially started injecting liquidity through OMO, let the rupee depreciate. There were rate cuts which were done. Reduction of risk weight was done towards NBFC and microfinance companies. Inflation target became more benign. And the primary supply also dried up, which was, I think, simultaneous with FPI buying.
Therefore, February onwards, you see that there was a change in trend, and hopefully, we'll see that momentum continue and go on through the first half of this year. But having said that, Q4 from a market context was a bit tough for everybody. But within that context, I think what we were able to achieve actually is a true testimony to the diversification and the resilience of the platform. And I think the excellent execution by the team Nuvama. I can't thank them enough. Coming to specifics in terms of the businesses, starting with Nuvama Wealth, we've always maintained that there are three, four large priorities with which we've been working with. First being, of course, the capacity addition and scale, which we've talked about a lot. But the more important part was the whole focus which we did on the managed products and investment solutions.
And if you see the flows there, they're quite heartening. I think even this year, we were able to achieve about 6,500 crores of net new money. And within that, quarter four saw about 1,400 crores in a tough environment, which was nice. And now about 70% of these flows actually comprise of managed products, which in a sense is building some annuity for the future. So slowly and steadily, that book is getting built, which will play out as we move ahead. In terms of lending, I had mentioned this, I think both in Q2 and somewhere around Q3, that we are re-looking at the way we run that business, and we wanted to fix certain ROE issues by changing the whole proposition and the model, which we have now done. So from this year onwards, you will see that there will be a dial-up that will happen.
Last year, the book was booked. We did not aggressively push the book because we were changing this model. Although gross disbursements happened and then loans got paid back because of the change of the business model, the ROE improved substantially. But this year, I think on a net basis, we'll be able to increase the book. I've been talking about the investments which we make around the technology related to both productivity and efficiency. I've spoken about our multi-asset advisory platform called MARS. I think now it's fully functional. Earlier, it was in the beta version. It's now being used by most of our RMs and top clients. The next stage is to essentially integrate generative AI into this. So right now, it's a rule-based engine. We will move it to GenAI.
I think that should help in terms of both client experience, consistency of delivery, and improvement of productivity of our field force. And second, which is a big move which we did, was there was a fundamental challenge when you're dealing with such a large set of people. The traditional classroom training model starts to become ineffective and extremely expensive to execute. I think with the advent of GenAI, even that we have considerably moved. And now more than 90%-95% of our training of relationship people in that business happens through a self-done tool which we have created where they can, at their own pace and time, interact with the fictional client on a product and get real-time feedback. And the acceptance across the board is phenomenal.
We will see the numbers in productivity also showing through, which actually, if you see the MPIS numbers, it in a sense has started reflecting there. Coming to Nuvama Private, again, there were three clear priorities which we had called out: building out capacity at a reasonable cost, build offshore as a proposition, and focus on ARR in terms of increasing the proportion of ARR as part of the overall business. I think on all three, we've made significant progress. Capacity, we've been able to add about 10% this year, and here I would like to comment, I mean, I think in a sense, there is some sort of madness happening in the market right now. The way people are building out teams and the way compensation is being dealt, I don't know, it looks like a race to death.
I think at a time when cycle goes bad, I maintain that many of these will get decimated. I think some sense should prevail over a period of time. We've been able to build, I think, like-minded people have joined who appreciate platform, who appreciate building a book and not look at immediate short-term gratification, but how a platform can help them build a sustainable practice and deliver value to the client and therefore create long-term value for them. On the offshore side, we've been now fully functional in Dubai. We've hit operational break-even with the current set of people. We will now add capacity there. And I think the three legs which we had, Invisage, which was India outward, offshore inward, and offshore offshore, all those three legs are operating well. On ARR assets, you would have seen the data book.
Even in Q4, despite I maintain the challenging environment, we've been able to do about 2,100 crores of net new money. And in this time, actually, more than 100% is managed products because we saw some down in the loan book in the ARR assets. And overall, through the year, we've been able to do about 10,000 crores, which is actually 30% on the starting base on the back of last year, which was 26% on the starting base. So I think all the three strategic priorities, reasonable progress has been made. On asset management, Q4, the key highlight for us was the commercial real estate fund. We had to take it to first close, which happy to state that we had done. We'd also issued a press release. And as we stand today, we've made our first deployment. We'll talk about it in detail in the next call maybe.
But just to give you a brief, it's a marquee asset, office asset in Delhi, more than 95% leased with an equity value of more than INR 460 crores. And I think it was one of the most prized assets sought by most of the funds. We were able to pull it through. The next phase will be to take this fund from current INR 1,700 crores to INR 4,000 crores in maybe next two to three quarters. Our public market funds, which basically comprises of long-short and absolute return, which as of date have become largest in their categories in the market. The long-short fund now has a three-year track record. The absolute return fund has a one-year track record. I think for this part, Q4 was a bit challenging because the whole public market space went through net outflows.
We still saw net new money coming in here because of the market fall. I think people were circumspect or postponing decisions or maybe redeeming. So I think that played out here. Hopefully, with the recovery now happening in the next two, three quarters, we will see the momentum come back. We've also, in this bucket, launched our GIFT fund. We've created the pipes now, which can access capital. We now need to go out and basically place these with institutional and wealth customers in overseas jurisdictions. On the private markets, our focus has been deployment both in our Crossover and Venture Debt Fund, which in this quarter we made three or four deployments. Now, in our Crossover Fund, about 15% of money remains to be deployed, which should hopefully get through in the next maybe seven, eight months maximum.
And we will look to start raising our fourth Crossover Fund over the period of this year. And lastly, I've been talking about Private Credit as a strategy. We've now formed up that we want to launch that strategy. We are in the process of identifying and closing the team. And maybe by Q3 or Q4, we should be up and running in that. Coming to Asset Services, this I think has been a breakout year for this business on the back of last year also, which had seen a reasonable amount of growth. Both international and domestic clients have been growing meaningfully. On the domestic side, we have about 20%-22% incremental market share. International side also, there was some bit of uncertainty that had seeped in because of this entire F&O regulation and all that.
People thought that volumes will go down, which they actually went down. We saw that this business was relatively inelastic in that sense because typically people do not take margin in and out. Even if you have two expiries in a week and they compute the peak margin required. Basically, the peak margin, our float actually went up in Q4 also. With this uncertainty around this F&O going away, we are seeing immense amount of interest coming from all the clients who are sitting on the fence. The pipeline is extremely strong in this business. Coming to our capital markets business, which is institutional equities and investment bank, I think on a collective basis, we've been able to weather the downfall. Our numbers are lower than Q3, but marginally lower as compared to the peer group.
We were able to do a lot in fixed income. We were also able to increase the market share in institutional equities in Q4. So you're seeing resilience. Obviously, there was a slowdown which happened in the primary market. And we just saw one IPO of KFin. Now, for the last three, four days, or five days, again, we are seeing a flurry of IPOs coming back. We are also focusing on advisory transactions. And fixed income remains intact in the sense fixed income in Q4 was also intact and even now remains intact. And the pipeline in investment bank, although the activity has slowed down, but I think mandate creation and pipeline is extremely strong. So if the market remains stable at this level and the activity comes back, I think we'll be out there executing deals and come back with our numbers.
Although the fall, again, as I said, is relatively far, far lower than what the market saw. I think this is about it from my side. I will hand over to Bharat to take you through the detailed numbers for Q4.
Thank you, Ashish. Good afternoon, everyone, and warm welcome to all the participants on this call. Ashish anyways covered all the headline numbers, but I'm happy to share the overall performance for the quarter as well as for the year. If you look at this FY2025, this has been a breakout year as Ashish also alluded to, and it actually creates that base effect of having large numbers coming from wealth, private, as well as asset services side.
So with that, the number on the consolidated basis, if you look at our clients' assets, is now at INR 4.3 lakh crore, which is a growth of around 24% on a year-on-year basis. This has been helped through the sustained inflows, which are coming in, and obviously, the market supported the whole growth of 24%. For the quarter, the revenue was at INR 771 crore, which is a strong growth of 29%. Here I'm referring most of the numbers on an underlying basis. Wherever I use a quarter-on-quarter, I'll be specific about it. In case of overall full-year revenue growth, the growth was at 41%, and this was a broad-based growth, not that only a few businesses did. Obviously, a few did exceedingly well, and a few did a growth of 15%-20%, but it was a broad-based growth.
If you look at the overall cost, our cost is at around INR 435 crore for the quarter, which is a 22% growth. The data book as well as the presentation is there on the website. If you look at the breakup, the fixed cost has gone up because we have added around 350 odd RMs over the last 18 months. Obviously, as they start building up, the fixed cost continues to go up. I think that's an investment which we have as a strategy we have decided, and we continue to invest on that. You would also see that the operating expenses have grown. If you look at the full-year operating expense, that has gone up by 10%, which I think seems very reasonable given our size of operations and as we are expanding.
But on a Q-on-Q basis, you would see that there is an OpEx growth of around INR 30 crore-INR 32 crore between Q3 and Q4. See, the key reasons are there are a few one-offs which are there in Q4, and as well as typically Q4 will always have some seasonal expenses. So I'll just take some broad one-offs as well as seasonal expenses. Like we do our flagship IE conference, which maybe a few of you would have also attended in Q4, as well as all our businesses and enterprise strategy offsite happens in the quarter four. So those are the expenses which are specific to Q4. You can see the similar trend in the previous year, Q4, where the OpEx certainly goes up. Other than that, as Ashish was mentioning, that we have added capacity on the private side.
So there is some cost which comes in terms of recruitment and all. We are also investing in our marketing spends because we want to further build on the Nuvama brand. So there are some investments which we are doing it, and a part of that has actually sit in quarter four. And if you go back to my Q3 update, where we specifically mentioned that we were actually in the process of modernizing our few key systems, APIs, applications on the tech side. It was more of an upgrade. That is what has actually the most of it has already been done, and that's why the cost is sitting in the Q4. So those are like a conscious investment which we wanted to do, and they are coming in the Q4 side.
There were some in Q3. In Q3, there were some specific things which we got like some credits from our cloud partners, as well as there was a termination of lease. Some reversals were there. So that way, the delta looks higher. But otherwise, if you see overall quarter-on-quarter, our OpEx remains between, say, INR 95 crore-INR 105 crore, give and take the seasonality part of it. The full-year growth was 10%. I think we will be in the similar zone or similar zip code in terms of OpEx growth year-on-year. So close to 10% seems reasonable, and that's our expectation. With that, our overall CI is at 56% compared to 60% in Q4 last year, which is a growth of 4%. Our PAT is at INR 255 crore, a growth of 41%. Full-year basis, the PAT has actually gone up by 65% to INR 986 crore.
And our ROE for Q4 was around 31% and similar number for the full-year at 31.5% or so. So that was on the overall financial performance. With respect to dividend, in October, we declared our H1 interim dividend of INR 63 per share. And in the yesterday board meeting, the board has actually approved a INR 69 dividend for the balance year. With this, we are within the range of our dividend distribution guidance. And on average, 48%-49% of the last two financial years, we have paid it as dividend to the shareholders. That's how the overall consolidated performance looks like. In terms of coming back to specific businesses, Nuvama Wealth, again, similar to company overall growth, the Nuvama assets has grown actually 20% YoY. But I think we more specifically also look at the MPIS assets because broking assets to the mark-to-market can do plus-minus.
The MPIS asset has actually grown much faster at almost 29%, and it's touched INR 30,000 crore. That's where the Nuvama Wealth numbers are looking like. And again, similarly, as Ashish was mentioning on the overall flows and our focus on our MPIS, the MPIS flows are actually almost INR 1,350-INR 1,400 crore in the Q4. And on a full-year basis, it is INR 6,500 crore, which last year was around INR 5,000 crore. I'm specifically talking about MPIS flows and not the total flows. Overall, the revenue was up by 17%, and this was marginally lower than what we initially thought, but that was led by broking revenue. As you know, that quarter four, we saw some extra volatility, and that's where the broking revenue was marginally lower. Overall, the CI ratio is at 67%.
As we've been mentioning, that if we remove the growth capital, which means the cost of the new RMs as well as the associated revenue, the CI would have actually improved by 250 basis points- 300 basis points. So this is a conscious thing which we are aware of, and we are okay with that as we are still building on the capacity at the business level. Operating PAT was up by 14% at INR 60 crore. Operating PBT was up by 16% at INR 66 crore. Similar to wealth, even private for the quarter has been a very good performance in terms of overall client assets up by 17% at INR 2 lakh crore. Again, the ARR assets, our focus area grew much faster at 33%, and now it's at INR 45,000 crore, give or take. On the ARR asset flows, this is up by 52% on a full-year basis.
So last year, we did around INR 6,600 crore, and this year, we have actually crossed INR 10,000 crore of new money in the ARR assets. So that's, I think, one benchmark where we are now touching INR 10,000 crore of annual net new money. Overall revenue, quarter four has been very strong. In the initial quarters, we mentioned that the revenue growth for private was a little lower. Q4 is a complete full-year full reflection of the activities, and the growth was at around 24%. And our ARR revenue now contributes almost 60% of the private revenue, which is where we are focusing on. Similarly, the CI ratio, excluding the growth cost of the new people and revenue, would have improved by 250 basis points-300 basis points from what we have reported. The overall PBT was actually up by 12%. And in terms of number of families, we are at 4,250.
We added around 575 new families during the year, and the RM count stands at 135 now for this. Asset management, a few good things. The AUM grew by 62%. It's at now 11,300 crore. Public markets and the commercial real estate actually helped in. I think the one number which is more important is that out of the total AUM, now 92% of the AUM is fee paying. That's where I think the most that's how the journey is going on for the asset management business. In terms of the new flows, you would see that the quarter four was subdued at some 300 crore, say, compared to last quarter of around 1,200 crore. But that's primarily till last quarter, we were focusing on our commercial real estate fund, where we raised almost like 700 crore in Q3.
Q4, we did not raise because that fund is at the deployment stage. Ashish also mentioned about how we have actually closed our first deal on the Commercial Real Estate Fund. It's nothing like the numbers have gone down. It's just the Commercial Real Estate Fund focus is now more on the deployment. That's where the numbers are. Asset Services, the assets under custody and clearing are actually up by 38% to INR 1.26 lakh crore, and the revenue is up by 85%. Overall Capital Markets, again, our IB, despite maybe the performance by others, our number on a totality basis for our IB put together was up by 16% on a YoY basis. The quarter-on-quarter, obviously, the ECM activity was lower, and hence the IB numbers were relatively lesser than what it did in Q3.
But the pipeline in terms of the mandates, which is at a very different stage. We've been working on those mandates, and there are new mandates which we are talking to them. They're at a different stage of closure, but the IB pipeline in terms of mandate on the ECM side looks strong. And on an overall basis, our IB continues to maintain or rather improve their market share in the respective business lines. I think with this, happy to share that our overall performance for FY2025 has been satisfactory. And now we can go for the Q&A. To the moderator, if you can open the Q&A.
Thank you. We will now begin the question -and -answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Our first question comes from the line of Prayesh Jain with Motilal Oswal Financial Services. Please go ahead.
Hi, Ashish. I'd like to congratulate on good set of numbers. Just a few questions. Firstly, on this asset services side, while we have seen that the assets under custody and assets under clearing have more or less been flattish sequentially in Q4, but you still have seen a very good jump in revenues. What will be that attributed to?
So typically, average assets, if you see within that, the float has actually gone up, Prayesh. One, because of the new clients which we continue to acquire, there the proportion of cash to non-cash collateral or G-Sec is normally higher. So that becomes a big contributor in terms of the number going up for the asset services business in general. And some yield pickup has also happened because if you see now, the yield is inching towards 2%. And there also, it's also a combination of two things.
One, of course, new client acquisition continues to happen where we keep on getting the cash float. And second, as if you remember the last call, we said that we moved to self-clearing for our wealth business. So that part of the float went out. So in Q3, it was only for part of the quarter. Q4, you see the full effect. So the yield went up even further. So there is an increase in yield and increase in the float assets within the overall assets.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Now coming to the private segment, where we have seen transaction revenues holding up pretty strong. It's at about INR 90 crore in this quarter. What would you attribute this to? Would it be unlisted shares that have created this, or how should we look at it?
So, a combination. That transactional revenue also has some bit of broking income, which, of course, was not up for this quarter. So what you're saying is right. It was unlisted shares, fixed income, and some other deal downselling. So combination of these three, because transactional income basically has only three, four line items, right? One is brokerage, second is unlisted, third is your structured product MLD, and fourth is fixed income. So it's split between all these. There was some bit of heightened activity in both unlisted and fixed income in Q4. Right.
Just one question on the overall cost to income on both wealth management side. While you've been investing over the years, over the last one and a half years. When do we really start seeing the benefits of these in terms of reported numbers, in terms of profit? How should we think about this, and how long would you continue to invest in building more capacity in both the wealth and the private side?
We've discussed in the past, and I've also asked you this question, and you only told me that you should continue to invest. But I think we follow the same because if there is growth to be had, right? Now, as a business, you have two choices. One, cost to income stop investing in new talent. Immediately, this 66 moves to 63. Now, in the short run, that may be good, but I think in the long run, that's extremely damaging to the business. Able to get talent, and you're able to move them on the productivity trajectory. Now, this is a business which is a, let's say, 1x productivity, 2x, 4x, 5x productivity. To start doing things, very high margin products, which again will be damaging to the business.
The two, three-year trajectory, as this productivity moves up, cost to income slow down investment considerably. Maybe in Nuvama Wealth for, let's say, one, two quarters, because now, if I look at the cohort of 1,200+ RMs which we have, about 500 would be less than one year. So in effect, that 500 on an aggregate basis are delivering 1x, right? So whatever number jump you are seeing is actually coming from the balance 700.
Now, the idea is to get some part of this 500 to slightly higher productivity. So we may take a pause for maybe one to two quarters, focus on this, and then restart. But if you ask me from a two, three-year perspective, I don't think the idea right now is to focus obsessively on this number and not build capacity because growth is there to be had.
So is it fair to assume that your cost-to-income, which was at 66% for Nuvama Private and 67% for Nuvama Wealth, this should hold up in the near term, and we should keep these kind of numbers from our modeling perspective for the next couple of years?
For FY2026, I think we are actually looking at 100 basis points down.
Okay. Okay. And this is at the full-year number, not at the Q4 number, because Q4 number was even higher at the beginning.
Yeah, at the full-year number. Because Q4, if you also see the cost, whenever we discuss, there are certain seasonal costs which bunch up at Q4. So Q4 cost is not the right reflection, at least the OPEX. Manpower cost will be. Even in manpower incentive and bonus, there could be catch-up due to year-end and stuff. But otherwise, on a full-year basis, you should see. And then 100 basis points is what we want to target.
Got that. I'll come back in the queue for more questions. Thank you.
Okay.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Dipanjan Ghosh from Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good evening, sir. So just a few questions from my side. First, in terms of the transactional business, despite broking being a little volatile, we have seen that do quite well both in private and wealth. So just wanted to get some sense of, let's look at the next one to two years, what will be the key revenue streams in this transactional portion, excluding broking, obviously? And what's the pipeline sort of looking for new segments that you can think of in that segment?
Second, in your opening remarks, you mentioned that the pipeline on the IPO side is holding up well. So from a modeling perspective, can you give some color on the pipeline or revenue potential out there? The third question is coming back to the custody clearing business. Obviously, last year was a year of significant number of new client additions. How is that looking like, let's say, for the next four, five quarters? And just one housekeeping question. If you can quantify your corporate treasury book in the Nuvama Private segment.
So let's start with the first one. The first one is on the streams of transactional revenue.
Yes.
Transactional revenue would largely remain what we are seeing. I mean, the same unlisted shares, fixed income, MLDs, some corporate deals and all. I think by Q3, there are two streams which will get added for us maybe by Q2 some and Q3 some. Q2, I think we will see some addition of cross-selling of our commercial real estate, where now, since we have a commercial real estate fund, and obviously, the deal sizes there are large. And when the fund goes and invests, you may get assets which are extremely good, but it may not fit fully within the fund's ambit.
So we may do a co-invest with some of our large clients and family offices. So that will be one that will get added. And if by Q3, we are able to get the credit fund going, then in Q4, you will also start seeing credit downsell. So I think these two meaningful streams are there in the future, which will get added in terms of transactional revenue. From a trajectory perspective, unlike ARR, it will go up and down quarter to quarter. But on a full-year basis, I think 40%-50%, 40%-45%, we will be able to maintain. Your second question was around the IB mandate. So IB, if I disintegrate and look at our overall IB, you obviously know we have a very, very strong fixed income practice. And that we are seeing secular growth for the last four years.
Even now, that growth continues because unlike the equity side of the market, it's a very, I would say, a repeatable market because when somebody borrows, by definition, that borrowing comes to an end, then they have to reborrow, right? Unlike an IPO, once done is done. Then if you need fresh capital, then only that issuer will come and access the market. So obviously, the fees in terms of percentages and quantums are lower, but the repeatedness of the business is significantly higher. And we've also built more pipes there because of this entire FII interest or FPI interest in India, given the G-Sec has been included in the bond indices. That activity has grown substantially. And we are focusing on that. So we have a lot of FII side of business that is coming in on that side. So that part remains strong.
On the non-fixed income side, in addition to IPO, so IPO, in my view, we have 30 - 35 mandates which are signed. Now, we will wait for the market condition, investor appetite, and all that. So you are going to see that coming through. I will not put a number to that, but the number is reasonable. And probabilistically, also, we feel if the market sustains at this level, we will be able to play that out. What we are adding to that is an intense focus on generating mandates on non-ECM side, which is advisory. There also, we have about 10, 15 mandates right now. Some sell side, mostly sell side because buy side doesn't get materialized so easily, mostly on the sell side. So that's on the pipeline side on the IB. On the custody clearing, I think this year was a breakout year.
I don't think we will see an 80%-85% growth next year. I want to, but I don't think we will. But having said that, I think the entire F&O thing, which was clouding the whole space for the last six months, is now out of the way. Two things we have seen. After the implementation of whatever the regulators had put out, we have seen the full waterfall play out, and we have not seen a dent in revenue because, again, people operate with a peak margin, which is intraday, and that doesn't fluctuate that much. That keeps going up, given the deployment opportunity they have. Now, with the new rules, which is now as a discussion paper, and maybe we'll get finalized where the limits have been increased to 1,500, 10,000, and the limit will be monitored on a delta-adjusted open interest basis.
There are flexible rules on index futures, and market-wide open position will also be linked to cash volume, so this has removed a lot of uncertainty because the regulators also took feedback from most of these international clients who operate in these markets, and more importantly, the intraday peak has been removed from being a limit to monitoring, which is there in most of the developed markets in the world, so subsequent to this change, the amount of interest that has started to come back again. Most of the people who were sitting on the fence are coming back, so I think we should see a good year once again. Again, I'm repeating, it will not be a similar increase like we saw last year, but it will be a decent jump even on this elevated base. What was your last question, Dipanjan? I forgot.
Sir, for the corporate treasury book on the Nuvama Private side, the quantum?
Total Nuvama Private, the asset size is about INR 1.93 lakh crore. In that, the corporate treasury book should not be more than INR 10,000 crores.
Got it. Got it. Thank you and all the best.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Mohit Mangal from Centrum India. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity and congratulations on a good set of numbers. So my first question is on the net flows. I mean, if I look at net flows in the wealth division, that number seems to be pretty low at around, say, INR 630 odd crores. And if I look at previous two quarters, it was more than like INR 2,000 odd crores. Just wanted to know, I mean, what led to this downfall, and going forward, how should we see the net flows within the wealth division?
If you look at the data book, Mohit, we give two lines on the net flow. There is a net flow, and then there is an MPIS net flow. Actually, the relevant line to see is the MPIS net flow because the other net flow includes loan assets. It includes broking assets, where the bearing of the net flow to revenue is not correlation. On loan assets, it will be, but loan assets is a discretionary item for us in the sense we can dial up and dial it down the way we want. It has less of a function of a market phenomena for us. Broking assets, the correlation of net flow to revenue is not directional.
Broking assets, the higher correlation is between the volumes in the market and the directional trend of the market. So MPIS net flow is what you have to see, and that is what we target. That is what we want to focus on because that contains a combination of annuity assets and the investment assets, which is your fixed income, MLDs, and all. That net flow, if you see from a year-on-year basis, has grown by about 36%, sorry, 30%. And on the base of last year, it has grown again by 30%. And even in Q4, which was, I think, an extremely challenging quarter in terms of overall equity environment and uncertainty around that, we've been able to do a INR 1,350 crores-INR 1,400 crores.
Understood. That is helpful. My second question is on the attrition. I just wanted to know, I mean, how has been the attrition at the RM and the client level? And do you saw any loss of AUM because of the client attrition?
Not really. In both the businesses, we have not seen attrition of clients. Attrition of RM is a normal natural phenomenon, and both businesses operate very, very differently. In our private business, typically, people take three, four years to build books. So for them to leave is like going and rebuilding. It's an arduous exercise. So there, the net attrition for this quarter is actually zero. In our Nuvama Wealth, we categorize RMs in different buckets. So at the top end, we call the big league. There, the attrition would be order of magnitude. About 300, 350 people come in our big league out of our 1,200. We would have lost three, four people there.
And out of the rest, the attrition can be 25%-30% as compared to banks, which operate at 45%-50%.
All right. And our endeavor is to increase by around 10%-15% the RM count?
Yes. That's right.
Okay. Thanks. I wish you all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Sanketh Godha with Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Ashish, on the core flow number, net flow number, means if I look at 10,000 crores in private ARR, MPI is 6,500 odd crores, and AMC is 4,500 odd crores. So 21,000 crores. This is core net flow number. So I just want to understand, given this number has grown by 65% almost year-on-year, how do you see this growth to play out in 2026 and which segments where you will see the maximum flow to happen, whether it is private or MPIS? I just want to have a color how it will play out.
So in terms of size of the net flow, I think private will be highest. And in terms of percentage, I think I would assume now, if you look at the closing ARR book, it's around 44,000. If we are able to do anywhere between 25%-30% on that, so you are again looking at a 10-11 thousand crore coming from there is what we will target. Anything above that is even better. Similarly, on the wealth side, now our MPIS book would be around maybe 30,000 crores.
Again, a 30%, 25%-30%, so maybe INR 7,000, INR 7,500, INR 8,000 crores there. On the asset management side, this year, public markets led the net flows. I think in the coming year, depending on how the public market flows settle, I think on the commercial real estate side, we are looking at a total net flow. So let's say we've already had INR 285 crores in asset management in quarter one. If I see the remaining three quarters, at least INR 2,000 crores- INR 2,300 crores will come in commercial real estate. 3,000-4,000 bare minimum we'll target in the public markets and say about 800-1,000 in the private markets. So if you add all this together, we are again order of magnitude 5,000-6,000 .
So, leaving your credit fund aside because I think that's the real play will come in FY 2027 and not in 2026. So if I add all this together, we come back to some INR 23,000 crore-INR 24,000 crore at the bare minimum, is what we target.
Okay. Perfect. So which means that this AUM growth of again around 20% plus is still overall possible is the view you have, right?
Yeah. Yes.
Okay. Perfect. Perfect. And the second question, maybe again back to the cost number. So if I look at wealth, that is private and mid-market put together, you are at 67%-68%, and your capital market business is at 40%. I guess just wondering, given you had a significant increase, a delta change in the contribution of the capital market business in the current year, if the capital market business broadly grows in line with the wealth business next year, then is it fair to say that that 55% cost ratio, what you reported, might inch up back to 57%-58%? Because I'm asking this question because you said 100 basis points improvement in the cost ratio. That 100 basis points, you meant to reflect only for the wealth side or overall company put together?
That was for the wealth side, Sanketh. If you look at the balance too, so I'm saying there will be some improvement in the asset management. Obviously, the quantum is small, so the impact on the overall will be lesser. But in capital markets, if we disaggregate again asset services, I think broadly we will be at a similar cost income this year or we will marginally improve over this year. Maybe institutional equities and investment bank, if the growth is slower.
That is also a business where the variable costs, Sanketh, are very much linked to the growth of revenues. So there will be some adjustment which will happen there. So it's not that the revenue has a straight path through to the PBT. So even if that, let's say, degenerates by 200 basis points-300 basis points, if you are able to improve wealth by about 100 and let's say asset services also by about 100, we should be able to neutralize. But worst case, you can see maybe a 50 basis points-100 basis points decline if we have an average year.
Okay. Perfect. Perfect. So basically, predominantly, the endeavor will be at overall company level to maintain the same cost-to-income ratio what we experienced in 2025. Got it. And lastly, on maybe two more. Lastly, on yields. See, my point on yield is that maybe there could be some seasonality and product mix affected. But if I look at from 2024 to 2025, the yields, honestly, except for the clearing business, there has been a bit of depletion. So should we assume the yields, what you have realized with respect to ARR, MPIS, and maybe AMC business will hold up? And clearing business, 161 is what you reported for the full year, will be the new normal going ahead?
So actually, clearing business, I think the new normal should be closer to maybe 1.8, 1.9. I'm assuming some decline in the FD yields coming in maybe Q3, Q4. And already we are sitting at 2%. So combining the two, we will still be higher than 1.6. In private, I think this will sustain. Obviously, some quarter will be up and some quarter will be down depending on the composition of AIF II versus AIF III. Wealth also, in my view, unless you see, wealth, Sanketh, you have discussed this, right? There is a denominator effect of MTM of equity assets. Now, if this year you don't see any phenomenal MTM happening, then these yields will sustain. If tomorrow the equity markets go up by 50%, obviously the revenues will also go up, but the yield will look lower.
Yeah. Yeah. Understood. Understood. Perfect. And lastly, Ashish, any color on PAG exit or sell? If you can tell us how, given there are a lot of articles in the paper that PAG is thinking to sell, whether it will be full block or partial, and if it happens, how it will happen, any color on that would be useful.
I have also read the same news article, Sanketh. If there is anything which has to be reported, we will report to the exchange. There is no such development which I am which has happened, and I am also privy to the same articles which you are privy to. So we are actually on the same page right now.
Okay. Okay. That's useful. Thanks. Thanks. Those were my questions.
Yeah. Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Ashish Agarwal from Oak lane Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you, sir, for giving me the opportunity. Sir, I had two questions, basically. So overall, if I look at HNI wealth growth, that growth has been pretty good. But if I look at the client count, essentially, for HNI segment, that has not seen much growth. So what can we do, essentially, to get that growth number on the client count side? And also, can we look at inorganic growth? And second question, yeah. Please continue, sir. Yeah.
No, I'm saying client count will be a function of RMs and how we add and how much they can manage. So I think we are pretty much happy with the current level of clients which we have. If we are actually able to deeper mine the ones which we already have, we will be happier than just going out and acquiring. In terms of inorganic, one always keeps looking for an opportunity, but it has to be some addition, real addition, right?
It can't just be going and buying some other wealth management firm because right now the valuations are through the roof. So either it has to be some addition of some asset class expertise which they have, which we don't have, which has to be a strategic fit. Otherwise, for us, if you see, if you look at our overall business diversification, we pretty much have most of the components that are needed. So in order to add something in inorganic, there has to be something compelling available for us.
Okay. And just a follow-up on that is that does that apply to our basically to increase our global presence as well, like something looking at a collaboration or something like that?
Yes. That is something which one can look at because if in global, we get something where we can acquire and it speeds up our process and it is a strategic fit, that we are always open to. In terms of collaboration, I think globally, there are extremely well-evolved models which exist today. And if you study, there's a concept called external asset manager, which is prevalent in both Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, where we as a firm can become an external asset manager to any of these large global private banks. And then there is a revenue sharing of 50%-60% with the share. And their entire platform, including their lending book, research, product access, product people, investment experts, analysts, everything is opened up.
So you're not actually then tied to one firm because, very frankly, if you get tied to one firm, then you may not be able to exploit the benefits which are available across the other platforms.
Okay. Thank you, sir. These were my questions. Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Lalit Deo with Equirus Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. So just two questions. Firstly, on the lending books, as you mentioned that we have reworked on the model, we have reworked on the segment. So I just wanted to understand how what would be the desired levels of the lending book which we are looking to grow in this for FY 2026 and FY 2027. Similarly, on the yield side, so there we have seen that the names have come under pressure in the loan book to around 5%. What would be the steady state for FY 2026 and FY 2027?
I think the steady state for our wealth business would be anywhere between 5% and 5.5%. For our private business, it would be again between 4.5 and 5%. In terms of the book growth, it should be in line with the overall business growth. In my view, we would want to look at least at the end-of-period book growth, maybe by, let's say, if our opening book is, say, INR 5,000 crores and we want a 20% growth, that means about INR 1,000 crores at an average level.
So by end of year, it should have grown by INR 1,800 crores-INR 2,000 crores, is what ideally we would want to target. Sure, sir. Actually, just on the asset management side, so when we are looking at growth of around INR 4,000 crores of net flow in public markets, around somewhere between INR 7,000 crores-INR 8,000 crores of net flows on the overall side for FY 2026. So in terms of cost-income ratio, so currently, we are at a level of 130%. So by when one should expect to achieve break-even in this business?
I think at INR 20,000 crores of assets we paying, we will be break-even.
So if you look at the cost there, it's about INR 78-INR 80 crores, right? And if you assume that the cost will grow by, say, hypothetically, I'm saying 10%-12%, so you're looking at INR 88 crores-INR 90 crores of cost in FY 2027, sorry, FY 2026, ex of the credit funds. So I'm talking existing strategies. Now, if you look at each of the individual components and their yields, so in my sense, if you are hitting a cost of, say, 90, I think you would end up at a revenue of anywhere between 85-86 if you are able to achieve the net flow numbers which we are talking about. And at that level, the gap is really minimal. And to be very frank, we also lowered the group allocated costs on that business. So which obviously is lower compared to other businesses. Excluding that, that business is break-even.
But including that, I think FY 2028, somewhere around the middle is when we should start seeing that business break-even on a quarterly basis.
Sure. Okay. Thank you.
Sorry, FY 2027, not FY 2028. FY 2026 end, then FY 2027 middle.
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Piyush Kumar from Global Consilient Research. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hello. I'm audible.
Yes, sir.
Yeah. So sir, my question is regarding wealth management AUM. So sir, can you just shed some light? Out of the total wealth management AUM, how much we have in AIF AUM? How much is the AIF AUM of the total?
Of the total in Nuvama Private, about 25%.
Okay. And sir, my second question is regarding the investment banking activity in India. And how do you see the IPOs, SPOs, and all of these deals over the next two years in India?
Two years, nobody can say. I can say at least for the next six months, we are seeing some action coming back because I think what happened to the markets from September to March, the investors saw so much pain in their portfolios that they were not willing to commit fresh monies into the new supply that was coming in. I think that is somewhat adjusting now, and slowly and steadily, if the market sustains at this level, and if they start putting in IPOs where they don't see losses, in the next six months, you will see the action fully back, but two years, I don't think anybody can actually predict on the IPO market. It's very difficult.
Okay, and my last question. So sir, how do you see the AIF industry growing in India across over the next one year?
At least by 30%-40%.
Okay, sir. Thank you so much, sir. All the best.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, are there no further questions from the participants? I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you. I think, as usual, it was interesting interacting with you. Look forward to seeing you all, I think, two months from now when we do our Q1. Thank you for coming again. All the best.
Thank you. Thank you. On behalf of Nuvama Wealth Management Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect. Your lines.