Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Petronet LNG Limited Q3 FY22 earnings conference call, hosted by IIFL Securities Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Harshvardhan Dole. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Neil. Greetings, everyone, and on behalf of IIFL Securities, I welcome you all for the third quarter FY 2022 earnings call of Petronet LNG. Firstly, I'd like to congratulate the management of the company for releasing a great performance in challenging macro environment. Moving on, to discuss the performance in detail and share the outlook for the subsequent quarters, we have the senior management team of Petronet LNG, represented by Mr. V.K. Mishra, Director, Finance; Mr. Akash Chawla, CGM and President, F&A; Gyanendra Kumar Sharma, CGM and VP, Marketing; Debabrata Satpathy, GM, F&A; Vivek Mittal, GM, Marketing; and Ashwin Aggarwal, Manager, F&A. I would hand over the call to the management for their initial comments, after which the floor will be open for Q&A. Over to you, sir.
Yeah, good afternoon to all of you. First of all, I would like to tell you that this quarter has been very difficult for us, but we have managed to give the best performance so far. So, the first thing I would like to highlight that EBITDA for this quarter has been INR 1,533 crore, as compared to INR 1,105 crore in the previous quarter and INR 1,173 crore in the corresponding quarter. So there is a growth of almost 39% from the previous quarter, and 31% from the corresponding quarter.
As regards that, it has been our highest, if you look at, it has been in the range of INR 1,144 crore as compared to INR 823 crore in the previous quarter, and INR 878 crore in the corresponding quarter. Here, again, the growth is 39% as compared to previous quarter, and 30% as compared to corresponding quarter. So first I wanted to start with a positive note, that we have shown the resilience in this quarter, even though in these difficult times when the prices of the LNG are very high, and it is becoming difficult to secure short-term and spot cargoes. Still, we have been able to manage the performance. So now let's start with the usage of our terminal.
If you look at our Dahej terminal, it has been utilized at the level of 86%, as compared to 97% in the corresponding quarter, and almost 99% in the previous quarter. But if you look at the volume-wise, you will find that it is 196 TTBTU in the throughput in the terminal this quarter, as compared to 225 TTBTU in the previous quarter, and 222 in the corresponding quarter. And similarly, the total volume which has been there is 208 TTBTU both Kochi and Dahej in this quarter, and 240 TTBTU in the previous quarter, and 235 TTBTU in the corresponding quarter. This is the physical performance, quarter-wise.
If you look at the, the throughput in nine months period, it has been very impressive, and we have suffered almost INR 657 crore PBT in the quarter, current quarter as compared to INR 679 crore, even the volume is less. Still, we have done in this difficult time, the best possible. Then next comes, I have already told you about the quarterly profits. Now, I will take you to nine months profits, which have been very impressive. It is INR 3,489 crore as compared to INR 3,100 crore, this is CBT. And if you look at PAT, it has been INR 2,602 crore as compared to INR 2,326 crore in the corresponding period of previous year.
So this is how the performance has been, and we have been able to manage our profitability despite low utilization because of our efficient commercial management. And we have done the operational efficiency we have done in this quarter. So all these have contributed to our our profits. Now floor is open for the question. Thank you.
Thank you very much. We'll now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you must press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. We'll wait for a moment while the question queues unfolds.... The first question is from the line of Puneet from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Thank you so much, Pradeep. My first question is with respect to the Note 4 in your accounts. How should one read that? Is it more in the nature of one-off or is it a regular business income? Can you help clarify, please?
Yeah. You are talking about the overall performance.
No, no, there's a Note 4 which says that the long-term regasification agreement company has booked some-
Yeah, yeah. It's basically use of the charges you are talking about, and perhaps that is there as per contract, and it is to the extent of INR 347 crore in this quarter. So this is just I was telling you that the high prices of LNG has in fact had the casualty on bringing spot and short-term cargo. And perhaps that's the reason that we had to impose the use of the charges on the off takers, whosoever are there. And that has not impacted our revenue, because either they will use the capacity or they will have to pay back as per the contract.
Okay, so this is for full year, that you recorded in one quarter?
For the whole year, because it's like this, we are having this contract year, as calendar year. So basically, at the year-end, we have to levy this charges, these charges. Otherwise, they have flexibility to bring in cargo quarter to quarter, and if at the year-end also they are not able to bring it, in the whole year from January to December, then, at the end of December, we impose the use-or-pay charges.
Okay. And,
All four quarters taken together.
Understood. Have customers paid that or they are yet to pay this?
They are yet to pay. So we have done the billing, so they have to pay it.
Okay, okay. And there was a similar item last time around, which also mentioned in, you know, point 5 in the notes to account. Any further progress on that? Any more adjustment that you need to do there?
That is regarding... Yeah, it has been there, because if you look at the user fee charges, most of the user fee charges are settled now. And perhaps we have done it with one of the customers, and other one is there, with whom we are in talks, and that will be resolved very shortly.
Okay, okay. So, so out of the, you know, INR 143 crore, 54 was withheld and 65 has been written off, right? That's how one should read this.
Yeah, and 65 was written off. In fact-
Yeah. Okay. So, so the balance is still under discussion and likely to be recovered or whatever, settled, depending on the negotiations?
No, in fact, we have reached an agreement that after the written off, the INR 65 crore, they will have to pay balance amount.
Okay.
INR 41 crore.
Okay, okay. Great. That's great. But they're actually yet to pay, right? I mean, that money is also not in your balance sheet, in cash.
Yeah, yeah. They will pay it, because this is recoverable. We have already reached a settlement whereby they have to pay it. INR 65 crore, of course, we have written off already.
Understood. Understood. That, that's very helpful. And any progress on the discussion with respect to the Kochi tariffs?
Yeah, that is also under discussion, and perhaps it will be settled in fourth quarter. We will tell you after this end of fourth quarter, what is the outcome.
Okay, okay. That's very good. My last one is on the CapEx side. Any further, you know, plans on building new capacity on the East Coast? Any further commitments have you done there so far, or is it still being evaluated?
No, it's going on. We are already in discussion as far as the terminal of the East Coast is concerned, and there are certain issues which are to be fleshed out. Of course, it's almost on weekly basis, we are taking a review of the project. Whatever developments are there, we are monitoring it. Since we have also engaged EIA consultant for this project, who are doing all the studies, pre-feasibility, and then they have to do the DFR things. All those things are going on simultaneously. Of course, the feasibility has to be seen from other point of view also, because how it is worked out, agreement, how it is shaped, all these things are yet to be decided. Of course, we are in discussion.
As and when that is finalized, we will come back to you.
Understood. That's very helpful. Thank you so much, and all the best.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. I request to all the participants, please restrict to one question per participant. If time permits, please come back in the question queue for the follow-up question. The next question is from the line of Rakesh Sethia from HDFC Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thank you for the opportunity, sir. So just wanted to understand this user fee agreement a bit better. It seems to be a substantial amount which was raised last quarter. Does the off-takers have any, let's say, recourse or any flexibility where they can make up for these user fee charges in the subsequent years? Or once it's billed, they are liable to pay these charges.
No, they are liable to pay as per the contract, because, there is no provision in the contract that they can, just shift the cargo to subsequent years. So this is not there as per contract. So as of now, we will say it is chargeable, and we have billed as per the contract.
Okay. So the flexibility that the off-takers have applies only during the year from quarter to quarter basis, but in the fourth quarter, they need to make up for all the volumes, okay?
Very true. Very true. In the fourth quarter, they have to come up. Whatever commitment they have not met in the three quarters, they can meet in the fourth quarter also. Then it's use of the charges will not be levied, otherwise, it will be levied after fourth quarter.
Okay. Just to follow up on the same, you know, since the amount is substantially higher, I mean, if I just look at the number of examples, you had mentioned that, you know, even the, the previous spending is about two hundred odd crores, that was pertaining for four years. And this one year, this one quarter itself is about INR 348 crores. Do you think, you know, there could be pushback from the off-takers to sort of negotiate and maybe not pay the cash immediately, but just probably, you know, let's say, elongate the value of the contract? So in these terms, that might still remain neutral to you, but they may do more volumes in probably one more year.
Is something kind of a proposal or something, kind of an agreement would be open to discussion?
Right now, as per contract, we are not doing. But of course, if there are real problems in the previous year, if you look at, there has been a COVID time in the first quarter, if you look at from April to June. It was in fact marked by the, you know, COVID pandemic. So I think, because of that, we may have, may think of it. But right now, we have not done it, and perhaps there is no discussion right now. But of course, they are representing that this has been difficult time because of COVID. So, it is up to our, our management and board to decide. But, so far, we have not shown any inclination towards just going down and saying that you can bring it in the future.
But of course, everything is open now because that has been a difficult period, at least first quarter. And subsequent quarter, there is no fee. So that is not something which can be relaxed. But of course, first quarter is there, which they have claimed that it should be considered and in fact, they may bring it in future. So all those things can be done only after subsequent approvals and perhaps after taking management a lot on this. And this all is still to be discussed at all. So far, we have not started the dialogue on these issues. But in future, one cannot say that we will not discuss. Of course, they are off-takers. So if there is a genuine concern, that can be considered for subsequent year.
But as of now, it is levied as per the contract.
Understood. LNG prices continues to remain high. Any change in utilization or any. How is your volume outlook, as we talk, you know, probably during the quarter? How do you see volumes panning out and then probably in the subsequent quarter? Anything you can provide in terms of near-term outlook would be helpful.
Actually, prices are still very high as far as the spot gas is concerned. So there is real challenge in bringing the spot cargo, short-term cargo. They are very costly, still at $25, $26. So a real challenge is there, no doubt. But at the same time, if you look at the long-term volumes, they are coming as per schedule. There is no default in that. So perhaps we are saved by the long-term contract, and they are coming as per schedule. All cargoes, almost, I think, we have crossed the 61 cargoes in the previous quarter. And whatever long-term volumes are there, they are coming as per schedule.
But only thing is, spot volumes, which used to come every quarter, it is becoming difficult for the off-takers to bring those cargoes, because at that price, there is a real challenge for the off-takers to save that gas at that price. So that is a big challenge for us, no doubt. But still, we are saved by the long-term contract, capacity booked by the off-takers, which we have booked almost at the level of 95% capacity. So, that is saving us, and that's why we are able to levy use-of-pay charges, in spite of they are not taking the cargo. So that is helping us a lot. In fact, we are immune to this kind of fluctuation to that extent.
Thank you very much, Rakesh. I'll request you to come back in the question queue for a follow-up question. The next question is from the line of Kirtan Mehta from BOB Caps. Please go ahead.
Thank you, sir, for giving me this opportunity. Is there any discussion about the investment into the petrochemicals project? There has been some news about it.
Can you repeat your question?
Is there any proposal about investment in petrochemical projects?
Yeah, it is there in discussion, of course, and we are in fact working on this project. And it's a proposal which will be analyzed threadbare, and only when there is a real return, and it is there. Because petrochemical is a business where people are making a lot of money. And in India, where the consumption of polymers or plastics is very less as compared to the world average. So looking at that point of time, that point of thing, we are hopeful that in future, the consumption of these products will increase. And perhaps then we have a lot of potential in that project. And after seeing that there is a lot of margin in that particular product, so we are thinking of that.
But it's still, we have to work out all the feasibility reports and FEED, and other things which are under discussion. And perhaps after that, if it is really viable, then we will venture into that project.
Just a follow-up on the same question. Which are the chains which you are currently evaluating for investment? Which are the options you are looking at in the petrochemical project?
Basically, this will be a plant of PDH-PP. So this is basically we are going to produce propylene to the extent of almost 500 KTPA. And then also we have the project of producing, which is... One more product is there. So these two products seven fifty and five hundred KTPA. So this is a small plant, not very big plant, but still we are looking at that particular product, which is PP and one more product is there. So these two products are supposed to be produced from there. Anyway, yeah.
Thanks. And can you also give us an update on the other CapEx projects those are under consideration in the current strategy?
Other projects, one project which is already going on is construction of tanks. We are already doing the construction of two tanks at Dahej, at a CapEx of INR 1,245 crore. And another project is, which is coming up because board has approved it, so it will come up in a big way, is the construction of third jetty at Dahej, with a CapEx of INR 1,650 crore. And, apart from that, we also have ambitious plan of expansion of Dahej terminal, from 17.5-22.5 MMTPA in future. So in the next three years period almost, it should be constructed. So three-year period time is for tanks also and for this expansion project also. Jetty will also be ready by that time only.
So these are the plans we are going, because the board has approved, tanks, construction. Board has approved, jetty construction. Board has yesterday approved the expansion of our Dahej plant to the extent of 20 MMTPA, because this is being done in two phases, from 17 to 20 MMTPA, and then 22, 22.5. But the time gap will be only 6 months, I think. So it will be in 3 and 3.5 years, it will be ready. So this capacity will be available to us in Dahej. So these are all plans for Dahej. And, then we look at the, east coast terminal, which we have planned at Gopalpur. So that is also underway.
As and when everything is finalized, everything is okay, then we will go to the board for approval, and that will be costing around INR 1,600 crore or so. It will be FSRU terminal, which will have a capacity of 4 million tons.
Thanks, sir. Thanks for this clarification. Can I also slip in one more question about the tariff increase for the Kochi terminal? Earlier in the call, you mentioned that you would be willing to sort of look at the lower tariff, as and when volume develops for the Kochi project. The additional incremental volumes are still sort of one more year away before the, when the pipeline actually gets completed. So when you are trying to conclude this discussion for tariff negotiation this quarter, are you sort of willing to reduce it even before the quantity ramps up?
No, actually, we are looking at even before the quantity ramp up, because this is future planning, future cash flow we have taken into account after their commitment. So ultimately, this will not impact PNL in the long run, and that's the reason we have agreed to it. And, of course, for that volume, which is coming up in 2025, 2026, for that we have sought commitment from them. And that is what they have commit-- They are almost on the threshold of committing it to the extent of 50% of the commitment. So accordingly, it will be a revised tariff from now onwards. And perhaps, I think it is from 2020... 2019, it will be. First quarter 2019.
So it will it is being done, looking at the cash flows in future for entire period of contract of this agreement model. So accordingly, we are going ahead, but that has to be seen. Because we cannot ignore one aspect, that the tariffs at Dahej, Kochi is highest, and perhaps no terminal in India and abroad has having so, so much of tariff. So that part has to be considered. So that's why we are, of course, against some commitment. We are thinking of reduction in it. But it's not reduced too much, whatever possible. But what else in future, if it is utilized to the extent of 80%, 90%, so certainly we may bring it to the level of Dahej also.
So that they will unify tariff, and perhaps then it will be more, level playing field for them also, that they have to pay only that much what they are paying in Dahej. But right now it is only a resolution that we think of, that it could be utilized to 100% or 90%. So accordingly, we will reduce tariff, but not to the level of Dahej. It will be, a small, a small amount which will be reduced. So let us see, what happens in the fourth quarter. We will not disclose everything now.
Thank you, sir, for giving this insight.
Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Avadhoot Sabnis from InCred Capital. Please, go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you, sir. So, the question on the user pay. Some calculations that I have made, just wanted to confirm them because they don't seem to tally. So you reported a user pay revenue of INR 348 crore in CY 2021, and if I take the Dahej regas tariff at INR 54.32, that would imply user pay volumes of 64 TTBTUs. And as far as CY 2021 is concerned, you know, user pay volumes overall is 8.5. Sorry, the total contract volume is 8.5, which is 420 TTBTUs, against which actual volumes are 389. So the shortfall is 32. So it's 32 shortfall, whereas the billing seems to be for 64. Sorry, have I, have I got something wrong in terms of calculation?
Sir, Mr. Vivek will explain it.
Yeah.
You are doing some theoretical calculations, so many a times, it happens that some capacity holders book additional-
Sir, sorry, I'm unable to hear you.
Is it better now?
Yes, sir.
Abdul, so what I was telling, so yes, theoretically, the calculation you are doing is correct, but many a times it happens that some capacity holders book additional slot also. So if you account for those, the numbers that we have given does not seem to tally, because some capacity holders have booked additional slots, so they have done more than their capacity, and some have done below their capacity. So user pay charges are applicable only on those customers who have done less than their capacity. And if there's no set off, if somebody who has done excess, that volume can be set off against the someone who has done short.
Perfect. Understood. Great. Slightly related question: The debtors was INR 2,160 crore as on September 2021. Would it be possible to share the debtors figure as on December 2021?
You are looking for debtors as on thirty-first December?
Yes, thirty-first December.
31st December, around INR 3,000 something crore. INR 3,307 crore. INR 3,307 crore.
That's 3,300?
Yeah. Abdul, Abdul?
Yeah, yeah.
INR 3,307 crore, but this includes the current, I mean, current period debt as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
As on the date, the debtors' position. Total debtors position as on date, including...
Debtors position as on thirty-first December, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Understood. Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Yogesh Patil from Reliance Securities. Please go ahead.
Thanks for taking my question, sir. I have a couple of questions. So first one is related to, could you please share the Dahej terminal utilization for the month of January? Is it lower compared to third quarter FY 22 or higher? We just wanted to know directionally, higher or lower compared to the third quarter FY 22.
We'll talk about in the next quarter. Whereas asking for January, it is too premature to talk about different numbers right now.
Okay. Okay. And sir, the second one is related to, have you taken a tariff hike in the month of January for Dahej terminal, and what is the current?
Yes, we have taken.
Okay.
Dahej, we have taken it.
Is it 5% or less?
5%. It is as per contract.
Okay. What about the Kochi terminal, sir?
It is revised in March, first of April, so accordingly we will do it on first of April.
Okay. And the last question from my side, sir, if you see, India gas demand has increased 5% Y-o-Y during the quarter, and mostly supported by increase in the domestic gas production. And in next 1-2 year, we would see, additional domestic gas production, from the domestic field, so which will likely impact on the LNG demand in India. At the same level, our additional Dahej capacity will be ready in next 3 years. So how do you see the utilization levels of Dahej terminal after expansion? And are you getting any fresh requests from clients for booking a capacity at Dahej terminal?
So far, if you look at, you are talking about the domestic production first. Of course, it will impact only to certain extent, because as of now, the prices are very high. So we cannot say that, people will prefer, LNG as compared to domestic gas. But when these situation will be normalized in the next few months, then it will be even at the level of almost domestic gas. So what I feel that, the demand in India is elastic in fact. It increases when there is a lower price, and it decreases when there is a higher price. So there is a gap in that. So perhaps right now, because the regas is available, high pressure, high temperature, so that gas is being utilized.
I hope that when the prices are normal in future, the demand will increase. As far as our capacity booking is concerned, we are not bothered because it's only something is available, then we are able to utilize it. What is happening that sometimes we are not able to accommodate the cargo, because we have some clients as per our ADP, so it is being executed, and we do not have a space. But now, after expansion, we will have enough for capacity to even book the short-term or long-term capacity booking also, and otherwise also, we can utilize it for spot and short-term cargos. You know, and further, this answer will be complemented by our VP Marketing, Mr. Vikesh Sharma.
Hello, good afternoon. What hypothetically you are thinking, the demand will remain stagnant, and share of LNG will be eaten out by HP-HT gas, which is not the fact. Fact is, if you see the way exponentially, the common minimum program in CGD, around 9, 10, and now 11 and 11A is there. So first thing is that gas is going gas demand is going to increase in the next 2, 3 years, substantially. Number two, there are few fertilizer plants which are coming online. Number three, there are expansion of refineries, and refineries, in fact, have inherent capacity are going up. So in any case, to cater to that demand, domestic production is not sufficient. LNG and, and in turn, our LNG requirement is going to increase.
If you see, while I'm answering a question of capacity buildup at Dahej. Dahej is having enhanced advantage of, number one, it is best connected, it's strategically placed. Also, its tariff is one of the most competitive in the market. Given all these advantage and demand coming up, because I am serving PLL, that's why I'm not telling. But even if you increase from above 22.5, Dahej will be in comparison with better place with any other terminal. So it makes very important for Dahej terminal to get, capacity added. And overall, Dahej, as you must have heard our minister speaking in the morning, the cost advantage of Dahej for incremental capacity is immense as compared to any other terminal. The CapEx required to expand it by 5 MTPA is fraction of developing a new greenfield project.
I hope I could give ample reason why Dahej should be expanded and why it is best place as compared to the competition, and market demand need to be catered, otherwise it is a liability. Do you want to add?
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, sir. Thanks a lot. And, and any update on getting any fresh request for—from client side, for booking the capacity at, at Dahej expansion terminal, new capacity? Any, any request, fresh request you are getting from client?
Keep getting those requests, but with the time, we have to see our internal requirement, our business requirement, and we'll see. It is too early to comment on that.
Okay, thanks. Thanks a lot, sir. Really helpful.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sabri Hazarika from Emkay Global Financial Services. Please go ahead.
Yeah, good afternoon, sir. So I have two sets of questions. Firstly, the bookkeeping questions. So the regas service income for the quarter, how much would that be?
INR 755 crore.
Excuse me?
Sir, it is INR 755 crore in total.
Nine months will be INR 765 crore?
For this quarter, INR 755 crore.
INR 755 crore. Okay. And what about Gorgon volumes in Dahej?
About 2.89 TBTU.
2.89 TBTU. Okay. And what about the index, 119, sorry, index adjustment for the quarter? So how much would that be on the raw material and COGS?
Yeah, for the quarter, essentially, the gross margin level is INR 145 crore positive.
Okay.
Debt level is +INR 5 crore, and negative is INR 161 crore. So net negative is INR 111 crore.
Okay. 161 will be—depreciation will be how much?
Depreciation and interest, both total INR 161 crore.
INR 161 crore. So, and negative and net is around INR 11 crore negative, right?
Yes.
Okay. Okay, fine. And second question is on your, I mean, take-or-pay, use-or-pay only. So, considering the one where the dispute is running right now, and you said that you've come up with an agreement. So what was the reason behind this dispute? I mean, use-or-pay is very much part and parcel of this business. So how come these three, four offtakers, two, three offtakers, this dispute emerged at the first place? And why-- how it is different from other use-or-pay demand sections?
... So, Sabi, you are talking about the note which we have given last time.
Yeah, I mean, there are two notes. One is the older one, where you said that you made some settlement and for customers. Then again, you have mentioned for CY21 also. I understand CY21, that is a fresh issue. CY21, it has gone up because of COVID, because of higher gas prices. But the older one, maybe it's like it predates CY21, it seems so. And why it was like, why it became a separate dispute altogether?
What happened that, at that point of time, one of the off-takers bought the cargo in the same contract year at the same place at Kochi. So what happened that they said that they brought some spot cargo there, and in fact, had they brought those cargoes to Dahej, that would have adjusted the use-or-pay charges that we have. But now what happened that this cannot be considered as per the contract. But if you look at the revenue, we have earned revenue instead of at Dahej, we have earned at Kochi. So it's a practical decision which has been taken by our board, that somehow they have brought two more cargoes at Kochi. Had they brought it to Dahej, there would not have been any use-or-pay charges on that.
So considering all those things, it has been decided that, of course, there is no revenue loss as such, because ultimately we have got revenue at the rate of Kochi tariff, which is INR 77.9 almost, in place of Dahej. So somehow it has been mitigated. So that's why it was considered.
So these are like 3, 3 customers, right? All 3 of them have done this?
No, no, no. One of the customer has already paid it, and the second one, we are talking to him too. So because of the decision which I have just told you, there is no revenue loss.
Okay. Okay, so but it is more like a exceptional condition, what you are trying to say, and not in the—and it happens one time only in case of this Kochi.
It's a one-off settlement decision which is taken. It is not to be considered as a practice for future. So it's a one-off decision which has been taken by the board, and as a one-time settlement, it has been done.
Oh.
Precedent for the future by doing this.
Thank you so much, sir, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from one of S. Ramesh from Nirmal Bang Securities. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, and thank you very much, and congratulations on the good results. The first part is on the Kochi terminal. Can you have some update on the Kochi-Mangalore pipeline in terms of the normal pipeline and what's the expectation in terms of when you will see the capacity utilization going up? We, you know, target for 30% or 35%, and how do you see the eventual utilization of Kochi terminal over the next 2-3 years?
Yeah, Kochi-Mangalore pipeline, as you already know, it was commissioned way back in 2020, November 2020. After that, the throughput has already picked up, but then suddenly the kind of prices which are prevailing now in the period, so almost last one year. So that is causing a little bit disturbance in full, at least utilization up to 30%, 35%. So we are really looking at that because the price of gas is so high that the refineries and other customers who are using, they are finding other alternate fuels are more cheaper as compared to natural gas. So maybe after two, three months, when we find that prices are weak, then they will start picking up, taking more natural gas than other fuels.
So this is the reason that it is not being utilized as indicated earlier, that it would rise up to 30%-35%. But certainly, the prices have played havoc in the consumption of natural gas in that region. And that's why that the utilization level is not that high, which we had anticipated will be in the range of 30%-35%. It has gone up to the level of 23%-24%, where now again it has come down to 19%. So we thought it will further move upwards, but it has not because of prices of gas. But we hope that once this crisis is over, certainly when the prices ease down, then people will start using natural gas instead of other fuels.
So in terms of that pipeline configuration, technically, the entire thing hasn't completed as yet, because in between they have done a stock arrangement with Chandragiri crossing. So right now, the entire thing is done as per situation, and all the three anchor customers in Mangalore can draw the gas. Is that my understanding?
No. What's your question? Actually, it's not very clear. Can you just speak again? What is your question?
So when they commissioned the pipeline, actually, they have done a stock share arrangement for the Chandragiri crossing. So they understood that the entire thing will be completed with the proper pipeline over a period of time. So in terms of the technical configuration of that pipeline, has it been completed as per the original design?
I have to see it because you have a question—a very, very good question you have asked. So at that time, the Chandragiri River was crossed, and the loop line was created along with the bridge. But it was indicated that because of the condition of rock over there, the HDD was not possible. So GAIL had promised that they will lay in a period of time. In the meantime, they have just built the pipeline along the bridge. So I think I will confirm to you later on, but I will have to ask GAIL people whether they have done it or not. But that is not impacting the consumption, because consumption is not that high.
So even with this kind of, lower dia pipeline, which they have put up right now, 6-inch or 8-inch, whatever is there, it is not impacting the consumption pattern in that region. But of course, it has to be upgraded to almost, 18-inch or 24-inch. So that will be done in due course. But I have to confirm it, how far they have done it. It was only, 1 kilometer stretch or maximum half kilometer, not more than that. Maybe that they may have completed, but I'll, I'll have to confirm with GAIL people.
Okay. So the next part, if you look at the global energy market, a lot of countries and companies in China with the liquefaction projects, including Russia. So is India kind of lagging behind? What are your thoughts in terms of being able to contract, you know, additional volumes from the new LNG projects which are now getting completed? And has there any progress in terms of our negotiation with Qatar? What is the status now?
You're talking about the liquefaction terminal in Russia and other places?
Yeah. So in terms of the global market, you know, the thoughts about different companies and countries and arranging finance and taking equity stake and tying up the sourcing of LNG. And my understanding is it's a very tight market. So are we kind of lagging behind? And is there a risk that we may possibly kind of miss the entire future requirement, especially for Petronet, because the contract with Qatargas has to be renewed after 22 years?
Well, yeah, what I could get from you is that projects are coming up, no doubt. As far as anything is concerned, this is not an issue, and projects are coming up. Maybe the prices now realized are very high. But as far as our contract is concerned with QatarGas, we are seeking to extend it after 2038. And we have already started discussion with QatarGas, and we are in talk for extending this contract for the future period. And apart from that, other terms and conditions will also be discussed, like the prices of price of natural gas, which will be determined, how it has to be. It should be brand-based, or it should be mix of Henry Hub, mix of JKM and brand for Henry Hub.
So like that, those issues are to be finalized. But we are very much serious about extending the contract beyond 2038. And this, we have conveyed to our counterpart in Qatargas, and they are in discussion with us. And perhaps we have a timeline of December 2023, by which we have to confirm that we are going to extend it. So from now onward, we have started a session, and we are hopeful that this will be supported. This is a very good contract for India. Looking at the kind of prices and even the distance which is there, it's a very minimal shipping cost for bringing LNG to India. So this is the most favorable contract India has ever had it.
Okay, thank you very much, and I'll join back with you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Varatharajan from Antique Limited. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity, sir. In the Bangalore front, the pipeline, what is the status today? And what is the update, the there? You're talking about Bangalore pipeline?
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Actually, that part is going on. GAIL is already doing it, and section up to Coimbatore is complete. And it's only 250 km from Coimbatore to Bangalore, which is to be completed. The only issue is that, again, the political issues are coming up. So, they have suggested, instead of going through the fields of farmers, they have suggested that, you should take the pipeline along the highways. So all those things are being tested by GAIL, and GAIL has committed that they will complete it. The only thing is that there are certain issues which has to be-- which have to be sorted out.
But, we are hopeful that in next one year, maximum two years, it should be complete.
Okay. And as far as user pay thing is concerned in the page, if you could just, like, give us the corresponding volumes which are currently there. Actually, you have given it in the past, just for the confirmation sake, what are the volumes which are currently under the user pay, user pay?
Actually, I am not getting your voice clearly. There is an issue. Can you speak loudly so that I can understand your question?
Yeah. Is it better, sir?
Yeah, it is. What you have spoken, I get understood.
Now, yeah. Yeah. No, I was referring to the user pay. What is the corresponding volumes, like, you know, which are currently under user pay? You have given it in the past.
I just wanted to get a confirmation on that.
User pay volume you want?
Yeah, that's right.
It's at the rate of, tariff. We are charging, the rate charge is around INR 54. So accordingly, you can work it out. No, the volumes, so we can know what amount of volume is under user pay currently. Currently, it is under review on the last year....
I'm sorry, sir?
In the last year, what was user pay volume?
Yeah. So even in the current, you know, current year as well, what is the quantum of volume under user, user pay?
Okay.
I think the calendar year. So what has happened that from January to December, what has been shortfall in the capacity utilization, that has been charged as user pay. In the, on the last day of the month of December 2021. So accordingly, we have done. As exact volume, I think, we have, but you can work it out.
Yeah.
We will have to see how much is the volume, because customer-wise, we have done differently. So-
So if I remember right, like in 15.75 million tons is after user pay.
57. Last year, 54,000. 55,000. Almost 55 or 3, we can work it out. So volume is not a big thing, it is there. Last year it was INR 55 crore. Yeah. This is, this year it is INR 347 crore. Last year it was INR 45-INR 55 crore. Okay, no problem. Thank you. This is as per contract. There is no need to go into the volumes and how much volume we have done. All those things are, have been worked out, and you can work out it based on the figures we have given. Thank you.
Thank you. I request all the participants, please restrict to one question per participant. The next question is from the line of Amit Murarka from Axis Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, good afternoon. So my question was again on user pay. So you said that during the year, it is allowed for the off-taker to make up the lost volumes or shortfall of volumes in the rest of the quarters. But let's say if your terminal is running full and there is a request for the traditional volume in a particular month or a quarter, but you're not being able to fulfill that request, so what happens in that situation? Would you still charge the take or pay, or will that be up for, again, discussion and waiver?
We will charge it, because if we have slot, then only we can accommodate them. Otherwise, they have already lost the opportunity which we have provided for.
Sure. So it's on a basically basis of availability of the slot? Okay.
Yeah, that is true, because we can accommodate, then we certainly do that. But otherwise, if they have not brought their cargoes as per schedule, this is their fault. So they will be subjected to user pay charges at the year end.
Oh, sure. And also on the regas, you had earlier mentioned that you were requesting them for that, pending cargo, 46 cargoes. So was there any progress, or they're still discussing?
46 cargo? I couldn't understand you said.
No, so there was some shortfall of cargo or offtake from RasGas, RasGas. So I believe from-
Okay. Yeah, I think, bringing the cargo from RasGas.
Yes, yes.
There was a shortfall in RasGas.
Yeah.
Yeah. That we are talking with them, and, in fact, it has been to the extent of almost 8 cargoes which have been there, in shortfall.
So 8 cargoes, okay.
But, of course, we have certain other cargoes also. Total, if you look at, other cargoes, which we have not brought, since 2015, it is, total number is 58 cargoes with RasGas. So 58 cargoes were there. And we have sought to, bring in 46 cargoes from Qatargas. To supply 46 cargoes in this current, calendar year contract year. Which case that they will consider, we have given a request to them to give us 46 cargoes out of the 58 cargoes, which are, which is the shortfall in the previous year, previous year.
Okay. As of now, there's no progress on that front then?
There is no progress, so they have not conveyed anything to us. But if they convey, then certainly we'll share with you.
Sure, sure. So I guess it is fair to assume then, if the LNG prices remain that high, they will probably not be looking at it.
Because the LNG prices are high and they have commitment available, so certainly they will have some scope for that, then they will give us. If they don't have the volume with them, how can they give us? But we have requested.
All right, thank you very much. I'll request to come back in the question queue for a follow-up question. I request to all the participants, please restrict to one question per participant. The next question is from the line of Mayank Maheshwari from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the call. Just had a question regarding your CapEx for the next two, two years, and how you have been thinking about dividends as well, considering your current projected CapEx?
See, it's not a big issue. As far as CapEx is concerned, the next 2-3 years, we can meet the CapEx from our, internal generation. Or of course, if required, we will also take, a loan so that we can meet the project requirement. But we will try to give the dividend as much as possible, to the extent possible in the next 2-3 years. Beyond that, we cannot say it right now, but of course, as and when there is the, cash generation with us and certainly, and project requirement will be only limited, then we will continue to pay dividend. So there is no-- There should not be any concern as far as the dividend payment is concerned. But for the big projects, if at all, like petrochemical we are talking about, we will go for, debt also.
It will not be only from internal generation. So good for bank, it may be in the range of 60/40, 30/50 ratio. So 70/30, maybe. So accordingly, we plan that, that for the big projects, we will certainly source funds from the debt market. And otherwise, if there is a small project, then we can meet it through our internal generation, which we are doing right now also for the banks, like from the INR 1,200 crore. So we are not taking any loan from outside. So like that, we have jetty also, we will not seek any loan from outside. But certainly for a big project like Petchem comes, then we will think of that also.
Okay. Sir, do you have numbers for fiscal 2023 and 2024 that you can guide us for on the, investment side?
Yeah, we can, right now, if you look at, look at that, which has been 2020-2023, it may be in the range of say, INR 1,300 crore or INR 1,400 crore. This is how we are sitting in. Maybe in the late 2023-2024, we will come up with the exact number. But 2020-2023, I can say this will be in the range of maximum INR 1,500 crore. It may be less than that also.
Got it. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vikas Jain from CLSA India Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Thanks for taking my question. Sir, so this, can you just tell us this user pay, the total debtors which are sitting over there, how do we suspect that these will get settled? Will we basically allow them to offset this for future capacity usage? Or, you know, how, how do you suspect that these will get settled?
Right now, we are hopeful that they will pay, because contractually, they are required to pay. So as of now, there is no concern, but of course, if there is a genuine reason for that, I have said earlier also that in the first quarter, there has been a pandemic impact, and certainly the consumption levels have been low at that point of time. So maybe for 2-3 months, if the request is made, we can think of it. But otherwise, we don't foresee any reason why they should not pay. It will be valued as per contract.
What is the total debtors and broadly, you know, if that, that has to be settled from that perspective that you, that you have?
Total debtors you are asking, or you are asking for this-
Basically, no. I mean, debtors are for this reason, user pay debtors.
Use-or-pay debtors, I told you it's INR 332 crore. INR 15 crore, we have already realized from the use-or-pay charges.
0.332 of this year, and the old one is only whatever you have mentioned on 0.5, which is the-
Yeah, it is mentioned in the note, also been given.
Okay.
Yeah.
So that would... Okay, okay, okay. So, maybe some adjustment because of the first quarter is what you foresee, broadly?
It is, it may be, because it's not right to say that whatever be the situation, you have to bring it. Because there has been a COVID impact, and there was a lockdown in that period. So consumption levels had gone down at that point of time. But of course, again, that is a matter of discussion. And again, it is up to the board to decide. So we cannot predict right now, but of course, if there is a request, then it will be only to that extent. And maybe only those projects we may allow them to go for, bringing them in future. And, so that's all what we can say. Otherwise, as of now, as per contract, these are all available. Hello?
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we will take that as the last question. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Mohit Mehra for closing comments.
On behalf of IIFL Securities, I would like to thank the management of Petronet LNG for giving us this opportunity. I now hand over the call to the management for the closing comments.
Thank you. I think we have tried our level best to perform whatever best possible this quarter. We always try to meet the expectation of investors. This is the reason that if you look at our performance, it is not as if it has come automatically. We have made a lot of efforts. Our marketing team, our operation management team, all have worked very hard. So that's why we are able to get this result. I don't know how far this is reflected in the prices of shares, but if you look at our efforts, it is immense. You can imagine that nobody expected to that level, that we can make a profit to the extent of INR 1,144 crore this quarter. It is, we have made it, somehow.
So this is what I am saying, that every time our entire team is tirelessly working towards increasing the wealth of shareholders, to increasing the value of share of Petronet LNG. And we try to do whatever best possible so that every year we create a record. You see, since last so many years, you'll find that we are increasing our effort, and it is effort works, and then we are better than last time, always. So there has been a growth of almost 30% in PAT and 39% in PBT. We hope this to continue, and we will work out the avenues where we can make money, even if this even though the capacity utilization is low. Still, we are getting money in from other things like trading and other businesses.
So this is what shows that effort is always there, that we should go as far as possible, and we should leave no stone unturned in making the profits, so that our investors always feel that there is a growth in the company. Perhaps new projects, which will come in future, will further increase the revenue prospects of our company, and the profitability outlook will also be increasing. So I think with all that, I just expect cooperation from all of you to give a positive outlook to our this company, and just tell the people that we are working professionally. We are trying to make everything out of the market. Perhaps we have so many plans to do in future.
You must be knowing that we have planned to have an office in Singapore also, for which the board has already given an approval. So we may have an office in Singapore, which will again be in the business of trading LNG. So all those things are being considered by our management. So that's what I just wanted to convey. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. On behalf of IIFL Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.