Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Petronet LNG Limited Q4 FY 2021 post-results call hosted by Antique Stock Broking Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star 100 on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Varatharajan Sivasankaran. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Malika. Good afternoon, everyone, and my apologies for the delayed start. It's my pleasure to welcome all the participants and the management to the fourth quarter results conference call. Request the management to give a brief, and then we can move to the Q&A. Over to you, sir.
Hello. Brief will be given by our Director, Mr. V.K. Mishra.
All are there connected? Should I start?
Yes, please, sir.
So our Dahej terminal processed 849 TBtu this particular financial year, 2021-22, against 896, 885 in the previous year. So there has been a downfall as compared to previous years. But everybody knows that there has been obvious reasons why it has come down because of pandemic, long lockdown in the first quarter. So these are the reasons which have impacted our operation this year. And overall, if you look at LNG process in our terminal, both Dahej and Kochi, it has been 896 TBtu as against 927 TBtu in the previous year. And if we talk about the quarters, then this quarter, Q4 2021, it has been 204 TBtu as against 206 TBtu in the corresponding quarter of previous year. And it is below the third quarter with the processing of LNG, which was 222 TBtu.
Overall, support to look at in the current quarter has been 218 TBtu against 219 TBtu in the corresponding quarter, and it was 235 TBtu in the previous quarter. The PBT is the highest ever, and it has been INR 3,968 crore as against INR 3,111 crore in the corresponding year last year. It has been up by almost 28%. It is highest-ever PBT which we have registered this time. If you look at the PAT, it has been INR 2,949 crore as against PAT of INR 2,690 crore in the previous year. This has been the annual results. Then if you look at the PBT of the Q4, it has been INR 856 crore as compared to INR 486 crore in the corresponding quarter. PAT has been INR 623 crore as against PAT of INR 359 crore in the corresponding quarter of the previous year.
So again, I want to highlight that this year, we have declared final dividend of 35% on paid-up capital. So it is around 3; it is INR 3.5 per share. It has been declared. And the strong financial results are basically achieved because of our robust operational efficiency and effective commercial planning by the company. Now, house is open for questions. So may I please proceed?
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Participants to ask a question, you may press star and one now. First question is from the line of Harsh Bohra from VT Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello?
Yes, sir. You may go ahead.
Yes. Yeah. Thanks for taking my question. So, sir, can you throw some update on the Kochi tariff? Last year, you have sorry, last quarter, you have told that within a quarter, we'll reach to some conclusion. So is there any update on it?
It's still our talks are going on and discussions are on. But as of now, we are charging the tariff, which was there INR 83.10 for Kochi tariff. And right now, in this quarter, maybe some solution will be there. And of course, we'll come back to you whenever there is a consensus reached on that. But till then, if there is no consensus, then certainly, whatever tariff we are charging, it will continue. It will not be reduced.
Okay. Second question was regarding the Kochi terminal utilization. In this quarter also, it was around 22%. When do you expect it to ramp up to near 30% levels, as you have guided earlier?
Yeah. Actually, 30% is our target. But as you know, the customers are coming up, and they are staking slowly. And perhaps they are still to take their highest requirement of gas. So we can say that maybe in six months' time or maybe this year-end, it will be almost 30%. But as of now, 22% is there. So I think it will further improve in the future. But at the same time, there is an issue because if you look at the spot prices in the market, it has been very high. If consumption is a little bit low in terms of that, the spot cargoes and short-term cargoes are not coming to India. It is slightly depressing because FACT, which is one of the major consumers in Kochi, it has got some restriction that it cannot operate if the price is higher than $8. So that's a hindrance.
If you look at the spot prices, it is in the range of almost more than $10-$10.5 almost. So it is very high. So it is a little bit causing concern to us because we are not able to ramp up the capacity. But if the prices are reasonable, certainly, FACT will also take. And in future, of course, we hope that this Bangalore pipeline will be there, which GAIL has promised that they are in the process. Only one section, Coimbatore to Bangalore, is to be connected around 250 km of the pipeline. Perhaps that section, maybe one year or one and a half year, it should be complete. So then perhaps it will be connected to the national gas grid. And certainly, the consumption level will be much higher. So that's the case.
Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Avadhoot Sabnis from Inga Ventures. Please go ahead.
My first question refers to the dividend payout. So you have paid the final dividend of INR 3.5 a share. The full year was up to INR 11.5, which is 59% payout. That compares to 70% payout in the earlier two years in FY 2019 and FY 2020. So could you shed some light on what prompted the board to slash the dividend payout? Is there some big CapEx on the horizon, or is there some risk to earnings that the board is concerned about?
Actually, we have outlook of going for growth plans for the company. Because of that, we thought that we should have some results so that we can proceed with the CapEx plan we have. Because of that reason, we have a little bit reduced it from the previous year, but still, it is not too less. Last year, it has been almost 125% of the paid-up capital. It is 115% this year. So it's only 10% differential is there. But at the same time, we have a huge CapEx plan in time to come in the next five years. So that's the reason that we have kept it a little bit low as compared to previous years.
Could you give us any sense of what this huge CapEx plan is all about? I don't think we have shared it.
We have been discussing, but now we are going aggressively on those plans. So if you look at one by one, I can tell you that we are planning to have two more tanks in Dahej. The CapEx will be around INR 1,240 crore. Then we are planning to have the additional jetty will be having a CapEx of INR 1,700 crore. Then we have a plan of the Dahej expansion from 17.5 MMTPA to 20 MMTPA, which has a CapEx of around INR 220 crore. Then another expansion plan, which is basically phase two, it will be from 20 to 22.5 MMTPA, which will have a CapEx of INR 890 crore. And then we are also expanding this tanker capacity by having more loading bays in Dahej and Kochi terminal. Approximately 14 loading bays will be there for supply of LNG. So for that, we have kept around INR 400 crore.
And then if you look at, we have a very ambitious plan of having LNG stations across the highway. So we are planning to set up around 1,000 LNG stations next five years. Maybe we'll be ramping up one year, two year. Maybe initially, it may be 20, 30. Then it may rise up to 300, 1,000 LNG stations. So for that also, we need CapEx, which is also capped at around INR 8,000 crore. And another project which we have signed with the Ministry of Petroleum we have signed MOU with the Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas is the compressed biogas project. 100 CBG projects are likely to come next few years. So it is also having a CapEx of around INR 4,000 crore. Then we have a plan of having one terminal on the east coast, which will have a CapEx of around INR 1,540 crore.
One more tank we are planning to have at Kochi also. Right now, we have two tanks. Additional tanks will be there. It will have a CapEx of INR 700 crore. These are the CapEx plans because of which we feel that there will be a requirement of funds in the future. Perhaps if we'll have our own funds, it will be deployed there. Then we'll go ahead with our growth plan.
My second question relates to the notes that I put in this result relating to some dispute on the take-or-pay charges. You said around INR 198 crore that you have invoiced. Okay. You haven't got INR 144 crore. Could you give us some color on this in terms of when did this dispute arise? Does it relate to FY 2021, or was the dispute earlier as well, and it's sort of being disclosed right now?
Oh, actually, you have rightly said. This is relating to year 2021, basically. And of course, the 2019 also is there. 2019, 2020 are the years which are concerned with that. But the only thing we are in discussion because they are our promoters and perhaps this is not relating to take-or-pay charges. This is basically relating to use-or-pay charges. This is regarding the capacity booked in our terminal, which has been in the two customers two customers have not paid. And they are saying that it should not be levied. But as per contract, if you look at. They have been charged. And as per contract, they are liable to pay. So we are saying that they should pay. And this is our hope that they will pay in the future. We are still in discussion. Perhaps it will be resolved very shortly, maybe in this quarter.
Sir, lastly, on the Kochi terminal dispute, okay, it's been going on for two years. As I said, we have been sort of waiting for the ultimate outcome. In the interest of fairness and for us to evaluate the true risk on this issue, could you at least share what the off-takers are demanding? We know from your side what you are asking for. Could we get the other side as well in terms of what the off-takers are asking for?
Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I will just tell you about it, what's there. It's a tariff at Kochi. If you look at initially, it has been in the range of INR 104. I'm talking about 2019. So what happened that our customers and stakeholders raised an issue that other terminals are charging less than Kochi and tariff at Kochi is very high? So they should reconsider it and reduce it. Based on their requests, we thought of it, and then we brought it down to INR 79.14 in 2019. Now, what happened that again, they are insisting that it should be even below that. So that is an issue. We told them that if at all they want a reduction in the tariff, they will have to commit more volumes to our Kochi terminal.
This can only happen when they commit more volumes at the Kochi terminal because it is directly proportional to the volume handled at Kochi terminal. So it cannot happen that your volume is hardly we are utilizing 22% in the last quarter, and you say that tariff should be as good as Dahej, which is around INR 54. So this is not possible. It's directly proportional to the volume handled at that terminal. So we asked them to increase this utilization of that terminal so that we can think of further rationalizing the tariff. So in fact, we have sent them the proposal also. And something materializes, then certainly, we will resolve this issue also very shortly.
Would I be right in assuming that instead of 79, they are asking for 54?
They are asking for equal tariffs with Dahej, but that is not possible with current handling of the volumes at Kochi because the volume handled at Kochi is very less. If you see, it's only 18% throughout the year we have utilized the terminal. Right now, if you see the kind of handling at Kochi, it is in the range of almost 3-4 MMSCMD. So this is the range which is operating, which is very less as compared to the capacity available. So once that utilization increases, then we can consider this request also to rationalize the tariff. But we hope that unless until they commit the volume, it is not possible to reduce the tariff. And we will not just go down by saying that we'll reduce it without committing the volume.
Thank you so much, sir. I'll go back to the team. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Probal Sen from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity, sir. Good morning. Two questions. One, you spoke about this one more tank at Kochi for INR 700 crore. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Over the next three to four years, the visibility of utilization, even if the Kochi-Bangalore leg of the pipeline also gets constructed and completed, our understanding was that the utilization would get up to around 50%-60% in a base-case scenario. So given the capacity we already have in the terminal, just wanted to understand the need for setting up one more tank. That was my first question.
Okay. Basically, we are setting up the tanks because there's a lot of arbitrage available in the market in the right time. So if we just have some more cargo with us and trade it at a time when the prices are good and buy it at a time when the prices are very low, so that can give us profitability to a great extent. And perhaps that is the reason that we want more tanks and so that we can have our cargoes stored there. Whenever there's the right opportunity coming up, we can sell them. We can buy spot or short-term cargoes there. So basically, it's more of a storage. And whenever it is the right time and whenever the prices are very nice, we can sell it.
So it's just to encash the arbitrage, which is there in terms of spot prices so that we can increase our bottom line by doing so.
Okay. Right, sir. And the second question was with respect to the CapEx on the LNG stations. Now, sir, previously, if I remember correctly, the plan was to sort of demonstrate the ecosystem, set up a few stations, and demonstrate the working of the model, and then essentially tie up with third parties where Petronet would essentially be the guy who would supply it and trade this gas. And there would be other OMCs or other players who would be sort of setting up the stations. Has something changed in the thought process that we are looking to go it on our own because INR 8,000 crore actually seems a fairly large number given the scale of operations that we have today?
Yeah. There is a change in thought process. And we are, in fact, intending to go on our own also. In some cases, we may tie up with the OMCs and CGDs. But we want to go alone also in some of the cases, most of the cases. So that is a change of thought, you can say, that we want to connect with the customer directly. They will come and retail with us also, LNG retailers.
Essentially, we are now basically venturing into fuel retailing in a big way, sir.
Yeah. It is because our forte is LNG only. And if we don't trade it and do with somebody else, they may not give a fair share to us. So it is not possible to go with the company because why they will give margin to us? So that's a big thought we have given and then found that we should go on our own because earlier, there was a constraint that there was a restriction because of CGD being awarded to various entities. And perhaps now clarification has come from PNGRB that anybody can set up LNG station anywhere in India. So that particular clarification has paved the way for setting up our own stations. And basically, we thought that we have LNG terminal, and we can promptly supply to our LNG station. So that is a thought process. And this is a change of our thought.
Earlier, we thought we'll go with somebody else. But now, on our own, we want to go on.
Okay. All right, sir. The last question was, sir, with respect to this quarter results, did the resurgence of the COVID thing in March have an impact, or this was more the drop? You thought it was more a function just of the spot LNG price increase, which led to third-party regas for it being lower than what we perhaps would have liked? Was it only price?
It was more of I would like to emphasize that more because of the higher spot prices. Because lockdown and this consumption reduction was in April almost, more April and May. In fact, March was relatively free. So I feel that it is because of the prices being so high that nobody is using spot LNG. And if you look at our long-term contract, they are much, much cheaper than long-term LNG. And this is spot LNG, and it is around $1.5 below that. So we see that people are not using. And Indian customers are very price-sensitive, especially power sector and other sectors also, fertilizer also. So they tend to use less gas whenever prices are very high and go for the alternate fuels.
Fair enough, sir. I'll come back if I have more. Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, please limit your questions to two per participant. Should you have a follow-up question, we would request you to rejoin the queue. The next question is from the line of Nitin Tiwari from YES Securities. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. The first question is about keeping with what was the regas revenue, service revenue in this quarter, and the number of Kochi cargoes which were diverted to Dahej. So that is a question.
Regas revenue, I will ask Sir David, my colleague. He will inform you. But the second thing you are asking, the diverted cargoes, it is around nine cargoes which have been diverted to the Dahej terminal. And the second part, the first leg of the question, will be answered by Mr. David, first, please.
Yeah. The regas revenue was INR 2,307 crore in total.
This is for the entire year?
Yeah. Yeah. For the entire year.
Okay, sir. And sir, my second question is on the LNG stations, the fuel retailing stations that we spoke about a couple of months back. We were sticking on the same topic. So correct me if I'm wrong. These stations that you're going to open on the highways would be serviced by virtual pipelines, which is LNG, I think, LNG trucks. So in that case, would the economics work out for all the stations that you would have planned across all the highways, all the 1,000 stations? So if you can answer on that.
Yeah. Yeah. This question will be answered by Mr. G.K. Sharma, our CGM Marketing.
Hello. Good afternoon. Thank you, sir. Basically, if you see, economics for virtual pipeline is very well competitive even up to 1,200 kilometers from the terminals. And if you see east-west terminals, present terminals, and likely to come, almost all of India will be covered in that sector. And considering that, it would be.
Sorry, can you talk to us? There's some sort of disturbance coming from your line.
Pardon me. Is it okay now?
Yes, sir. You may go ahead. Thank you.
I was telling, based upon the economics, even up to 1,200 kilometers, if a station is located, on an average, the economics is workable. Seeing India's present and likely to come east and west side LNG terminals, it will be worth because almost all of India will be covered within 1,000-kilometer radius.
Okay. So fair enough. And if I may just skip in one more, what is the utilization level at Dahej in April and May? How it has been during the lockdown?
Right now, we are in the month of June, and we are very close to the financial closing of the quarter. So maybe DF can give a normal, I mean, generalized reply, but probably we will not be able to give the precise reply to this.
Sure, sir. A broad sense is okay, sir.
Okay. Over to DF, what the numbers should be?
Actually, there has been some impact of this particular month because of lockdown, April and May, certainly. But now it is recovering. In the month of June, we are able to recover. But of course, it has impacted us to some extent. Capacity utilization was best.
Was it similar to how it was in the last year or better than that?
Actually, if you look at today's utilization, it has been almost 88% of the Dahej terminal.
Okay. Got it, sir.
That's much I can say.
Sure, sir. Thank you so much for answering my question. Thank you. I'll leave you on the queue.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Someshu Vora from Smart Sync Services. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you so much for taking my question. Very good afternoon to you. So my question more is from an investor point of view. So how do we see so in terms of profitability, you have been growing at a pretty steady rate over the last three years. So sir, how do you basically see this because of this CapEx of INR 8,000 crore, which you have, I mean, just highlighted to us? So do we expect a sharp jump in interest costs? And what's the CapEx for the year? Because if my understanding is right on what I see is that our CapEx, what we've been doing is about INR 150 crore-INR 200 crore broadly on a yearly basis. So how do you see that shaping up? And sir, second question of mine is basically more to do with the press reports which we hear about BPCL.
Now, BPCL is one of our promoters who owns 12.5%. So sir, I mean, if you can please help understand what is happening on that front. Are they looking to sell our stake? Are we talking to potential investors? If you can just give some color on that, sir, it would be very helpful. Thank you very much, sir.
Actually, first question, you are saying that LNG station, we are putting up with a CapEx of INR 8,000 crore. Basically, this is our idea that that is a segment which is not very pricey because if you compare LNG usage in long-haul trucks and buses, it is basically having arbitrage as compared to diesel. So when we compare this LNG as fuel, then we have to compare it with diesel. So it is always almost 30%-40% less than that. So people are ready to do it, only thing that it's a chicken-and-egg story whether LNG station has to be put up first or first let the long-haul truck should be converted to LNG fuel truck. So this is something so we are taking initiative. Initially, we will put up some station, maybe 25, 30 stations, and then we'll ramp up in three years and five years then.
So it is our plan that it's a segment which is less sensitive to price because of comparison with diesel. So what we feel that even if we have a gas LNG which is available at $10-$12, it will also be good enough because it is even better than diesel cost. It's 30%, 30%, 40% less than that. So this is the basic reason why we want to go in a big way in this sector. So this is one thing. Ultimately, this is going to replace the diesel. This is the intention. And perhaps that is also environmentally friendly. So that is the reason for the question I've answered. The second one you are asking?
Sir, my second question is, I mean, what we hear about our promoter I mean, one of our promoters, BPCL, they own 12.5% stake. So what's happening on that front, sir? If you can just give some of the data.
Actually, this is something which you should ask from BPCL, then PLL because they are holding our share. We cannot tell you what they are doing. But sir, I have to ask.
No, no. I mean, the only reason I ask you this.
Yes. They are not selling it. They are not selling it.
Okay. Okay. Fair. Okay. Fair. And sir, just one thing on the first point, which I mean, which you mentioned about the CapEx. So sir, so what's the CapEx number, I mean, which you think we should look at for current year and next year onwards?
David, can you reply to this question?
Yeah. The current year CapEx is budgeted at around INR 530 crore. And the next year should be I mean, with the progress of the project, the next year estimate is somewhere around if the tank project commences, should be somewhere beyond INR 1,000 crore. But with the new plan that has been given now, we will come back to you on the revised CapEx numbers for the forthcoming years, basically.
Okay. Sure. Thank you so much, sir. Wish you all the best, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Manikantha Garre from Axis Capital. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, sir. Thank you for providing the opportunity. Sir, my first question is with respect to the Kochi terminal, have we taken the 5% hike from Q1 onwards? And with respect to the tank farm there that you have talked about, how long can we store the volumes at this tank farm before in-situ evaporation or some such negative impact could be there? That's my first question, sir.
G.K. Sharma, can you answer, please?
Sir, could you please repeat your question again?
Sir, have we taken the 5% hike, the regasification hike for Kochi terminal from Q1 onwards?
Yes. Definitely. It is under the contract, and we have taken.
Okay. And how long can we store LNG volumes at the tank farm? So I mean, for example, you have mentioned that the third tank farm, which we are planning, we may use that to store LNG and use the arbitrage opportunities to sell. So I want to understand how long can we store volumes at that tank farm before any in-situ evaporation or any such negative impact on the volumes could be there?
See, normally, what we offer, if a capacity holder is bringing their volume, so on an average, within 30 days, they have to evacuate their whole cargo. And as regard to the new tank being planned, it would be seen what arbitrage possibility and opportunity to earn from asset-based trading is possible. Then that will be decided because your time is money in that sense. Otherwise, from boil-off purpose, one month is the present practice.
Okay. Understood. And second question, sir, I think you have made a statement to the press saying that you are going to bring more volumes from Qatar and not looking to invest in the Qatar LNG projects. So just wanted to understand a little bit more on the pricing side here. When I analyzed the recent Gunvor or Vitol deals with Tellurian, the deals were made at 11%-11.5% slope to the crude prices. So roughly, is that how you are looking at I mean, has there been an increase in the slope in the recent past in terms of pricing for the term contracts?
No, it's not like that. Whatever statement we have given, it was in response to some other query. But of course, we have not decided so far from where we will source it. But right now, if you look at the market, the long-term prices, Chinese companies, CNOOC, Sinopec, and others have done the contracts with QatarEnergy and others. And these are in the range of 10% slope, maybe 10.2%, 10.19%, like that. So it should be in that range only now. So I think whenever we will do any sourcing of LNG, it will be in the range of 10% or maybe less.
Sure, sir. And just one last question if I can squeeze in. Can you give the update on the Sri Lanka LNG project discussions? Because I've seen a press release from their cabinet which actually highlighted that the port, the West Container Terminal project, has been awarded to another group, and they themselves may invest in the LNG project as well. Would you have any comments there?
Sri Lanka project is, of course, was there on our radar. But in fact, what happened recently is that they have changed the goal post. Earlier, there was a plan to have FSRU terminal in Sri Lanka, which is basically shore-based. But now what they are saying is that it should be 5 km in the deep sea where the terminal has to be capped, FSRU. So that is a big change because 5 km inside the sea, it's a very difficult thing to do. And perhaps across the globe, if you see, very few structures are like this, which are 5 km away from the shore. Normally, we have our expertise in shore-based or land-based terminals. Or it may be FSRU also, but it should be on shore of the sea. So that was our forte. But now what they are doing, they have quoted a tender.
They are saying it will be 5 km inside the sea. So that has dampened our interest now. But let us see what happens.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much. And wish you all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Maulik Patel from Equirus Securities. Please go ahead. Mr. Maulik Patel, your line is unmuted. Please go ahead with your question.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Few questions, sir. On the LNG stations which you mentioned about 1,000 stations over the next 5 years and the CapEx is around INR 8,000 crore, do you think that I mean, so per station, CapEx is close to around INR 8 crore? That was the roughly number? Or the initial CapEx will be higher and the subsequent CapEx will be lower? And what kind of payback I mean, you said that PLNG is taking an early lead in setting up the entire ecosystem because it's always in a chicken-and-egg solution, any problem. So I mean, do you think that our payback period will be significantly lower in the initial years?
Initial years, it may not be lower. But once it is set up, then perhaps subsequent LNG stations will be having a lower payback period. And perhaps that is our idea that we should put up the station because once the number of trucks increases, then perhaps that will be the key to recovery of investment. And that will be helping payback. So our idea is initially, it may not be very low because the number of trucks will be less. But once the people realize that there is a saving of 25%, 30% as compared to diesel, then people will start converting their trucks into LNG-fitted because this was the case in PNG also when initially it was introduced. Very few vehicles had CNG. But once people realize the economic benefit it is having after putting up this CNG kit, people started having more and more CNG cars.
So this is the kind of thing which may take one or two years. But then perhaps after two-three years, people will come to know, and they will, on their own, convert their trucks into these LNG filters. Then payback will be very less.
Sir, with the same context, in CNG, when you mentioned that initially, there was a resistance or lack of input from the public. But in many cities, particularly Delhi, where public transportation was asked to convert to the CNG, are we looking for such kind of incentives or any kind of policy from the Government of India which promotes LNG for long-haul trucks?
The policy is, of course, as you say directly, there is no policy. But government is committed to increase the use of LNG as fuel for long-haul trucks and intercity buses. They are committed because what is their thought process is that ultimately, LNG, if it is used, there are two benefits. Main benefits will be there. First, it will address the environmental issue, the pollution level which is increasing. That can be reduced, first thing, for which government is already committed in COP21 that they want to reduce the pollution level by 33%-35% by 2030. So those commitments are there which have to be met. And then perhaps the second issue is that they want that it should be a gas-based economy because ultimately, it will result in economic benefit to the government also because the cost of procurement of LNG is less than crude oil.
So they can reduce their dependence on crude oil, and they can increase the share of natural gas so that it will also help in just saving the foreign exchange while importing LNG rather than just importing crude oil. So government is committed. In fact, government wants that we should put up it. In fact, 50 LNG stations have been inaugurated by our Honorable Petroleum and Natural Gas Minister. So it is very clear that government wants that it should be LNG which should be used on the highways. More and more LNG should be there. And perhaps that will save connection to the government as well as it will also address the environmental problem.
Sure. Sir, just one more last question if you permit it. Sir, can you just give your view in the context of increasing domestic gas which we have seen from Reliance? And a lot of gas is going to the fertilizer segment and at the same time to the refineries and petchem, that incremental domestic gas. And also in the context of the new upcoming terminals which you have talked or everyone has talked about, how do you see PLNG's position with the same two threats? One is the rising domestic supply and the competition. Your view, sir.
Yeah. Actually, first thing, you are saying that domestic gas availability has increased. That is true. Almost 22 MMSCMD has increased. And perhaps more gas will come maybe in the next one or two years, maybe three years. So this has impacted as of now. But in the long run, this will not be so because the demand of natural gas is much more than the availability of natural gas even after this new find which is there by Reliance ONGC. So what I feel is that in the short run, you can say that it will reduce some import of LNG. Only spot cargoes will be affected by that or short-term LNG will be affected. But in the long run, maybe in the next three, four years, five years, then ultimately, the requirement of gas is much higher.
It will be required by 2030 in the range of almost 70-90 MMTPA. Today, we are utilizing only 46 MMTPA. So it will be almost double. So much of production cannot be sourced through domestic sources. So this is my just assessment that for the time being, of course, availability has increased. And perhaps spot cargoes because their price is very high right now, so maybe that will be impacted. But if you see the pricing of this domestic gas also, it is not available at this $1.79 per MMBtu. It should be in the higher range. It is around right now $3.62. But in the next six months, it will be in the range of $5-$6 because this is a deep sea, ultra-deep sea, and high-pressure gas which is slightly costlier than normal gas, domestic gas.
So what I'm saying is that, of course, because of there being very high spot prices around, the difference is big. So initially, it may impact. But in the long run, the demand is much, much higher. So it cannot be met through domestic sourcing of natural gas.
Sure, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amit Rustagi from UBS. Please go ahead.
Thank you, sir, for giving me the opportunity. Sir, my question relates to the volume which we are likely to sell through these retail outlets. So if you can give some ballpark numbers that what is our target for 2025 and what is our target for maybe 2030, how much LNG we can sell through these retail outlets if we have 1,000 stations?
If we have 1,000 stations, we have a target of almost 3.5 MMTPA of gas to be consumed there. This is our target. But maybe it may further increase because we are hopeful that this segment will thrive like anything because it has economic advantage to the fleet owners, truck owners. So I feel that this will go in a big way. And recently, many state road transport companies have also come along, and they are insisting to convert their buses into diesel. So that will be a big change. Some of the states have requested to us also, and we are looking at that. They want to convert their entire fleet to LNG. So that is the kind of thing which is going to happen in the future. So we feel that this has got a big potential.
Right now, we can say that we have a target of 3.5 MMTPA LNG consumed.
Sir, you mentioned about the lower payback time. What's the payback time on these stations if you're investing around, I think you said, INR 8 crore per station, which implies INR 8,000 crore on these 1,000 stations?
I think G.K. Sharma, are you there? Can you please reply? What is the payback period you have fixed?
Sir, payback period is less than five years, sir.
Okay. Okay, sir. Thanks a lot, sir. Best of luck.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sabri Hazarika from Emkay Global. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good afternoon, sir. Firstly, I wanted to understand so there has been a sharp jump in other expenditure and fall in other income. So this was because of Ind AS 116 impact. That's right?
116? Yeah, yeah. That is one of the reasons.
Okay. So last quarter, there was India's gain of INR 30 crore. That is not there this quarter. Rather, there is a loss of INR 18 crore, forex loss. So that has been taken in the other expenses. And in the other expenses, there is a CSR provision also of INR 56 crore extra than the last quarter. And there was a dividend from the shipping company of INR 11 crore in the last quarter which is not there in this quarter. So those are the main reasons. Okay. The dividend income was in other income which is not there for Q4. Right. Okay. And is there any inventory gain and marketing margin, trading gain in the numbers that you give generally for the quarter?
Inventory gain, as we had told last quarter, it was INR 60 crore. This quarter, there is a negligible one, about INR 4 crore of gaining there.
Okay. And second question is relating to your CapEx plans only. So the projects that you have stated basically implies close to INR 16,000 crore-17,000 crore of CapEx over the next four-five years. So that could lead to a phasing of close to INR 3,000 crore-INR 4,000 crore annually, say, two years down the line. So is it the right assessment, or do you think that it will be more extended in terms of phasing?
I couldn't take your question. What you're saying?
No. I mean, all the projects combined is close to INR 15,000 crore-INR 16,000 crore of CapEx which you have announced. And you have mentioned that in LNG retail, five years, you have given the target for 1,000 outlets. And CBG also, I think, INR 4,000 crore in the next three, four years that you have mentioned. So if I go for a year-wise phasing, then one to two years down the line, your annual CapEx will become INR 3,000 crores-INR 4,000 crores going by this runway. So is it the right assessment?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Next two years later, you will see more than that. But initially, because it will take some time, but initially, it may be less. But two, three years later, it will be, of course, in that range only.
Right. Regas service income, you mentioned INR 2,307 crore for the full year. Right?
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pinakin Parekh from J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you very much, sir. Sir, two quick questions. First is, given the slew of projects that we are announcing right now or we are looking at in India, is it fair to assume that all the overseas projects - Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Qatar, US Tellurian - are now firmly on the back burner?
See, it's not the case, I'm saying. But right now, we are looking forward to having some CapEx in India. Whenever opportunities will come, we will see that also. But as of now, there is nothing in discussion. So we cannot comment on that, that everything is now off. It's not like that. We can consider it as a right thing. But as you know, right now, investment in LNG terminals outside India, anywhere outside India, it's not very lucrative. LNG is available at a very low price. It's only recently prices have increased. Otherwise, it is very low because the availability of LNG is plenty. It is there. So what I feel is that we cannot say that we are off. But of course, nowadays, it is better to source the gas without investment at a very low price.
There is no incentive while investing in LNG terminal and then take equity LNG from there.
Understood, sir. My second question is related to CapEx. There is a whole host of projects that the company is right now looking at. Cumulatively, sir, including everything, what is the total CapEx plan? And broadly, how does the company see this being spent over how many number of years? Will it be two years, three years, five years? We are just trying to get a sense of total spending and the number of years.
Total spending, one of your colleagues just mentioned, it is around INR 15,000 crore. We have said so 8,000, 1,200, and 12,000, and almost INR 15,000 crore. But the span for this completion is around five years from now.
Understood, understood, understood. Lastly, sir, just to reconfirm, maybe you already mentioned in the call, but the 5% tariff escalation was taken, right?
Yeah. It was taken every year as per contract.
Understood. Understood. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vidyadhar Ginde from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you. My first question was on what do you expect the utilization at both Dahej and Kochi to be this year?
Sorry to interrupt, sir. Your voice is not that audible.
No. Is it better now?
Yes, sir.
Yeah. So basically, my question was that do you expect what is your expectation on utilization both at Dahej and Kochi in FY 2022 given various headwinds such as this rise in domestic production, the high spot LNG prices which are in the future that are even higher than what prices are right now, and the impact of COVID which at least will be there in the first quarter?
Yeah. Actually, Dahej, if you look at, it is already booked to the extent of almost, I think, 15.75, almost 16 MMTPA, you can say. It is already booked. So Dahej is already fully utilized. Only thing is that because spot cargoes which usually come, they are not coming now because of high prices. But otherwise, if the prices are reduced in future, then certainly, more spot cargoes will come to Dahej. But Dahej will continue to be operating at more than 95%, 90%. So that is not an issue. But Kochi, as you know, has always been a concern because of this pipeline issue. But now, since the Kochi-Bangalore pipeline has been commissioned, so we hope that the utilization level will be in the range of 25%-30% in this financial year maybe by end of its.
You're saying 25, 30 by the end of the year?
Right now, it is 22%. Right now, 22%. It is already there.
Lastly, just what are the returns?
Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Vidyadhar Ginde. Sir, I would request you to come closer to the phone and speak.
Yeah. So my question was, what is the likely expected return on this CGD or the LNG stations business and the biogas which you are talking about? Would it be comparable to the current business, especially Dahej, or not as high? And don't you expect that if you want to make such a big impact on the diesel market, even though OMCs might come into the same thing and their balance sheets are much stronger than yours in terms of they may not be there. They have a lot of debt, but they have very strong balance sheets. So they can easily compete with you.
No, competition is always there. I'm not saying it is not there. But what I feel is that this is a business which will give handsome return because if you look at the pricing, LNG is priced at 30%-40% less than diesel. So price-wise, it will give a good return. Absolutely no doubt. And as far as the competition is concerned, of course, it will be there. But then we have to do it. Otherwise, how can we survive? This is our 40. We have more two terminals and one more coming up. So we should, in fact, go in this direction because this is something which can perhaps give us more profitability in time to come. So we hope that this is a good segment. Biogas is basically it is guaranteed by government that they will buy this OMCs and the CGD companies.
They are buying it at INR 46 per kg. So this is a rate which is good enough, I think. And perhaps if that is bought at this rate, which means it will be if translated in terms of per MMBTU, it will be almost $11-$12 per MMBTU. So price is good even for the CBG. So we hope that it will be a sustainable business. And price has already been ensured by government. And perhaps all the OMCs and CGD entities who are there in business, they have issued a letter of intent in this regard. In fact, we have got almost 18 letters of intent from GAIL, HPCL, and CGD companies. And perhaps that is one thing which we can say that price is good, INR 46 per kg.
What is the timeline on the project?
Timeline of the project. Basically, this is something it will take some time because it's something which is coming up first time in India. We are putting up some stations right now in Haryana. Four stations we are intending to put up. Once we see what is there, the progress is there, then we will see other states where we can put up these because in this case, one of the major requirements will be the feedstock is there or not for these plants. The feedstock is a major concern. We have to select the places where feedstock availability is there and if government can ensure that availability will be there throughout the year. That is something which is a challenging issue.
Perhaps if that is there in some place, then we can think that it's a good thing because ultimately, if it materializes, it will help in augmenting the domestic gas in India.
Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aditya Suresh from Macquarie. Please go ahead.
I just had one question, actually. So in the past, we've always spoken about a bunch of projects where we have Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, etc. But we never really proceeded with some of these announcements. So I guess in that context, the specific question I wanted to ask was, INR 8,000 crore of CapEx for LNG trucking. You've mentioned that the first few years, you kind of go slow, etc. Right? So if, for example, you find out that economics are less kind of conducive than what you had envisioned, is this a committed INR 8,000 crore of CapEx, or is there an element of if the economics are not favorable, then you kind of scale back these plants meaningfully?
Can you throw some light on that in terms of how much of this CapEx is actually committed versus how much of this is going to be depending on returns of some of these projects?
See, it's like this that we have planned for this. And whenever we will have this project to be implemented, some of the projects, we have started already. As you must be knowing, that the two tanks that have to come up, we have already started the tender process. For jetty also, we have received the DFR for that. So there is a process which has to be implemented, and then only projects can be materialized. So what I'm saying is that something has been already committed. Jetty is committed. Two tanks at Dahej is committed. The Dahej expansion from 17.5-20 MMTPA committed. Again, second phase expansion of 22.5 MMTPA is committed. So these are expenditures which will happen. There's no doubt. But as you see this LNG station part, 1,000 station, I have said, but then we have to see where we can put up.
Those things have to be worked out. Some issues have to be traced down, land availability is there, and where it is more feasible to have. This is our thought process that we will see. Perhaps whatever number we have said, maybe not exactly the same it will come, but definitely around that, we are planning to have.
If I were to kind of think about this as an aspirational CapEx or a targeted CapEx compared to a committed CapEx, at least for LNG highway.
See, once you will not have aspiration, then perhaps you cannot succeed. You have to aspire something. Then only we can go ahead in that direction. But of course, I have told you that CBG projects, I have said 100 CBG projects we want to do. But at the same time, we have to see whether feedstock availability is there somewhere or not. Those kind of logistics have to be there. Then only we can go ahead with that project. If logistics already fail at any place, there is no use of going in a project. So those things, I cannot commit right now that 100 will come, where it will come. So this is, again, we have to work it out and then come to the board for approval. So it's only an ambitious project that that much should come.
Feasibility will be worked out based on the return on investment. Of course, whenever we are bringing anything on floor, then it should have some return. Then only we'll go for that.
I see that. That was a question. Makes sense.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amit Shah from BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good afternoon. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Just following up on Aditya's question, is there a way? Can you—you said the jetty is committed. The Dahej expansion is committed. And so is the tank project, right? What would be the total CapEx of all these three, and how much has already been spent?
Total three, if you look at INR 3,000 crore tanks and jetty, then the Dahej expansion is around the INR 1,100 crore. So it will be INR 4,100 crore. And then third one is around the Gopalpur terminal, INR 1,500 crore.
Which one, sorry?
There is an East Coast terminal I have talked about. So it is there, INR 1,500 crore. And one tank at Kochi, INR 700 crore. So these are the expenditures which will come up. So it will be more than INR 5,000 crore.
How much of and over what period of time, over the next three years? Is that a fair assumption?
Gopalpur is likely to be this East Coast terminal is likely to be completed by 2025. And then these tanks are likely to be completed by 2024, jetty by 2025. So like that, timeline is fair.
Is it fair to say that over the next?
Over the next five years, we can say.
So would it be fair to say that over the next five years, if you do end up doing the entire LNG stations as envisaged today, you would be spending something around INR 12,000 crore? Give or take.
With LNG stations you are talking about?
Yeah, everything included, like these three projects that you mentioned and in the.
The station I have said that is separate apart from this.
No, no. I know. That's what I'm saying. So if I add the INR 4,000 or the total that you just gave plus the INR 8,000 which is envisaged, right, that would mean that in the next 5 years or so, you would be spending around INR 12,000 crores if the LNG goes through as is.
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
That's correct, right?
Yes. Yes.
Okay, okay. And just one very housekeeping question. I think I might have missed it. Were there any one-offs in this quarter? And why were the other expenses higher on a QoQ basis?
David, kindly explain.
Hello?
David, is there?
Yes. Yes, sir. So INR 56 crore was for CSR. That was booked in the last quarter, the provision for commitment for this year. And also, there is an INR 18 crore Ind AS 116 loss, this Ind AS 116 loss. So that makes the higher number in the other expenditure.
Okay. There was no other one-off in the quarter, right, related to inventory or anything?
Inventory, actually, gain was INR 60 crore last time, but this time, it is negligible at INR 4 crore.
Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Varatharajan Sivasankaran for closing comments.
Thanks, Malika. I want to thank the Petronet Management and all the participants for a very productive session. Have a nice day. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of Antique Stock Broking Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.
Thank you.