Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Amnish Aggarwal from Prabhudas Lilladher. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yeah. Hi, friends. Welcome to this Pidilite Industries 4Q FY 2024 call. We have the top management of Pidilite, represented by Mr. Bharat Puri, who is the Managing Director, Mr. Sudhanshu Vats, who is the Deputy Managing Director or Managing Director Designate, Mr. Sandeep Batra, who is the Executive Director of Finance, and Mr. Sunil Godse, who is the Senior Vice President, Finance and Accounts. So, without wasting much time, we would hand over the rest, Mr. Sandeep Batra.
Yeah. So, very good evening to everybody on the call. I will quickly take you through my summary and opening remarks covering the fourth quarter and full year results, which were approved at our board meeting yesterday on the seventh of May. In the current quarter, standalone underlying volume growth was in the mid-teens at 15.2%, whereas the Consumer and Bazaar businesses had an underlying volume growth of 12.7%, and we saw a very strong bounce back in the B2B underlying volume growth at 25.2%. Gross margins in the quarter were higher than the fourth quarter of last year by 690 basis points, largely led by softening in commodity costs.
VAM consumption was at $925 a ton versus $1,300 in the fourth quarter last year. We also, as mentioned earlier, stepped up our investments in brands and other market-facing initiatives. As also you would notice that the fourth quarter revenues were nearly INR 250 crores lower than the third quarter, and that had some kind of a negative operating leverage. And as a result, our EBITDA margins for the quarter was 20.5%. However, compared to same period last year, it was nearly 200 basis points higher. In the current quarter also, we took a one-time impairment charge on account of one of our manufacturing facilities at Mahad, and that is why the depreciation and amortization charge is higher. This one-time impairment charge is about INR 20 crores.
The current full year's revenue was underpinned by robust underlying volume growth across categories and geographies, along with an improvement in mix. Growth was broad-based, with both the Consumer and Bazaar and the B2B divisions achieving double-digit underlying volume growth. This double-digit growth was enabled by distribution expansion, innovation, supply chain, and digital initiatives. For us, both urban and rural markets have grown in double digits, with rural markets growing faster than urban. Consolidated revenue for the quarter was slightly under INR 2,900 crore and was up by 8.1%, driven by strong volume growth across geographies and categories. Our international subsidiaries, with the exception of Pidilite USA, where we have wound down the business, and Pulvitec Brazil , which we divested in the end of March, have reported modest sales growth and with significantly improved EBITDA margins.
Our domestic subsidiaries also recorded good sales growth, and profitability also improved. In the consolidated results, there is an exceptional item of INR 72 crore, which is largely the loss on account of the divestment in the Brazilian business. That seventy-two crore hit in the exceptional items is offset by a INR 26 crore gain in other comprehensive income, so the net hit is INR 45 crore. We as a company remain focused on building the Pidilite of the future, and our CapEx cycle continued for upgrading and building new facilities. In the last financial year, that is FY 2023-24, we have expanded capacity in existing plants, consolidated a few manufacturing facilities, and commissioned 10 new plants. We continue to increase our distribution touchpoints, both in urban and rural markets, combined with effective use of digitization.
Innovation as a driver continued across the company and has significantly contributed to the overall revenues of the company. With this, I open the floor for question and answers.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two.... Participants are requested to use handset while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. First question is from the line of Abneesh Roy from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks, and congrats on very strong volume growth. So my first question is on the demand side. So you have been delivering double-digit volume growth, and real estate cycle is expected to continue for at least two more years, and you have been a key beneficiary of that. And we are seeing a lot of FMCG companies also say that rural recovery has started and could also get strengthened post-monsoon, which again, you will also benefit. And you have said that this quarter, Q4, rural has grown faster than urban for you, which means that clearly rural is in the right direction. So my question is, if I combine all this with your comment on soft demand in the near term, which you have alluded in the CNBC interview, to the disruptions caused by elections.
So first I wanted to understand, let's ignore the near term, how do you see post the near term, essentially the election-related disruption going away? Do you remain as confident as your Q3 commentary on the demand post that? And second, disruption, exactly, is it linked to the Model Code of Conduct wherein the governments are not able to give the approval? Is it linked to that, or is it linked to the manpower slight movement here and there, which happens?
Thanks. Thanks, Abneesh. Good afternoon. Always good to start with you. See, let me just give you the full clarification. When we are talking of near-term softness, it is largely due to the election, a little bit due to the heat, but the heat happens every year, so we shouldn't worry about it. What tends to happen, and we've seen this in past elections also, even in state elections, see, in categories such as ours, and this is true largely for building materials, what happens is there is a shortage of labor, because a large part of the labor gets displaced. There is also an issue about moving people. You know, there is also an issue of people being a lot of the economy, especially in the smaller towns, et cetera, is a cash-based economy on carrying of cash, the truck availability, so on.
So we find that there is a minor disruption. So let's not worry about it. That will frankly even out in, you know, 30-45 days. As far as the year is concerned, frankly, we're, as we've said, we are optimistic and confident on the prospects. Fortunately, our sector is one of the sectors which has considerable tailwind. The real estate cycle is clearly still on the upswing. We're beginning to see signs of that helping demand in, especially where individual housing is concerned. In organized real estate, it tends to be in T plus 3 and T plus 4. That is 3 years, 4 years from the project starting. And this cycle will play out, and therefore it will be advantageous. The focus on infrastructure always has an impact on our sales across the board, and we are seeing that.
So I mean, frankly, we don't expect demand conditions to be any different and, you know, with a good monsoon, so on, hopefully rural. Though, again, I want to clarify, for us, rural is not just about quarter four. For the whole year, our rural has been 1.5 times urban. You, of course, are a strong Pidilite watcher, so you know, we have consistently invested strongly behind rural because we felt we were under-penetrated in a lot of our categories, and that is paying us dividends over a longer period of time. So therefore, if I was to take a step back, how do we look at FY 2025? Presuming there are no black swan events, geopolitics, frankly, which are outside any of our controls, I think it will be as good, if not better, than FY 2024.
Right. On the demand side, Bharat, sir, two follow-up questions I have. One is, lot of discretionary categories like furniture, shoes, apparel, and many more, have had a very tough last almost 5-6 quarters, and most of these use adhesives in one way or the other. This part of the demand obviously would have suffered for you also. In spite of that, you are reporting almost 15% kind of volume growth and double-digit in most quarters. So, how is this part of the adhesive demand shaping up? And, whenever recovery happens, is that an additional growth? That's one question. And second, telecom cost will go up for end customer post-election. That is now a given almost, so there can be 10-20% hike.
Do you see that impacting your consumer end consumption in any manner?
So the first part of your question, which is the discretionary categories, and obviously, like you, Abneesh, we've been keeping a close watch. Actually, what we have not found an impact in the domestic market... I mean, you know, remember for furniture, even today, more than 80% of furniture in India is made on-site by carpenters, it is not bought ready-made, right? And we're not seeing any, you know, I mean, as is evident from our volume figures, and, you know, we will not deliver this kind of volumes if our lead products, ala the furniture adhesives, don't grow at similar rates. So we are not seeing any issues as far as demand is, in the areas of furniture or domestic adhesives is concerned.
Where we have seen actually strain is exporters who are dependent on overseas markets, whether they are making shoes or they are making textiles or they are making furniture, and of course, direct exports to these countries. We've seen an issue, for example, Nepal has struggled with foreign exchange. Bangladesh had some problems with foreign exchange. So there are more problems outside. Frankly, within India, we have not seen any major patterns which, you know, reflect what the discretionary, apparel, shoes, et cetera, furniture people are saying as far as we're concerned?
Sure. Last quick question on depreciation, Sandeep sir did highlight the one-off. So wanted to understand, you have been opening a lot of new factories also. So one, if you could explain in Mahad what happened, why this goodwill was getting impacted? So if you could clarify on that bit, why depreciation one-off happened this quarter. And given so much of factory expansion, how do you see depreciation in the coming quarters? This quarter it was very high, INR 112 crore, and earlier it used to be more like INR 80 crore. So is the INR 80 crore the right number to look at in the coming quarters?
So I think the right way to extrapolate will be look at the fourth quarter, subtract INR 20 crore because of that one-time impairment, and that should be the run rate going forward. And to your question on why we took the call, because every year we look at what is the realized for plants that are not. We look at the, we do an impairment test for all our assets, and in that, this particular plant, we decided to write down the value to what we believe can be realized, because it's not a plant that is running. That is why we did the impairment cost.
Okay, so it's an obsolete kind of factory?
Yes. Yes. And again, I, one more fact that my team tells me I must mention is that, you know, when we are talking of demand softness, remember, we are coming from a position of double-digit volume growth. A lot of times when FMCG is saying we are seeing better rural demand, we are going from 0%-5%. We have already been at, like, you know, 1.5 times the current rate. So there is, there's a difference of the starting point.
Absolutely, understood. Thanks a lot. That's all from my side. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Jay Doshi from Kotak. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for the opportunity, and congratulations on good performance and good year overall. I'm just following up on the previous question, and just to make sure if I heard it correctly, did he mention that FY 2025 will be, if not better, at least as good as FY 2024 from a volume growth perspective, based on the way you look, you see things today?
Absolutely. That is our objective, without doubt.
Sure. That's helpful. Can you say the same about margins? At least, as much as FY 2024, if not better?
See, margins, Jay, we will always be guiding you in the 20-24. Now, how it plays out, what happens is normal, but we will be in, comfortably in the 20-24 range, unless again, as I said, you know, something goes out of hand geopolitically. Otherwise, given the regular course of business, we will be at, you know, 20%-24%.
Sure. My next question is, you know, you've talked often about consolidation of manufacturing facilities and the CapEx that you've done in the recent past. How should one think about the net, you know, net benefits? So there'll be some efficiency-led gains that will help you, you know, and perhaps, you know, be accretive at gross margin level. And on the other side, there'll be slight increase in depreciation. So, you know, in your own sort of, as per your own assessment, at a net level from a P&L standpoint, will it be tech margin or PBT margin accretive over the next two or three years as some of these facilities, you know, hit full utilization?
Yeah, absolutely, Jay. I think, when we look at any CapEx or capital expenditure proposal, given the kind of return on capital employed that we enjoy, we have a fairly stringent bar in terms of the IRR and the payback for all these investments. Obviously, the timing at which they will reach the right level of capacity utilization may vary, but 100% all the capacity expansion that we are doing is going to be accretive at the PBT level. It will have savings, maybe in freight, maybe in manufacturing in the kind of costs at which you are able... In conversion costs. But in summary, it will be accretive at a PBT level.
Sure. One final one, a short one. You know, there was very strong growth in B2B's business this quarter, perhaps led by exports. Can you provide us some color in terms of, you know, what kind of visibility you generally have in that business? And is this something, you know, that can continue for at least two, three more quarters, given that the base is quite favorable there, or was this, like, just a one-off, this, in this quarter?
See, it's definitely not one-off. Last the year earlier, the second half was a little depressed, so therefore, it's not reflective of a real growth because it's on a base that was depressed. Having said that, I must tell you three things. One is domestic projects business is buoyant. It is growing at rapid rates and is strong. That will continue to be strong when we look at our order book. It's all a question of execution and being able to execute, because the number of projects, so on and so forth, that are underway is substantial. The second is domestic industry based on domestic demand is also strong and, you know, having now taken the price reductions that we needed to take, et cetera, the volume growths are back, and we are growing strongly.
We are seeing the first green shoots of recovery in the international market, especially in pigments. We definitely will have a much greater improvement as far as pigments is concerned, starting with the first quarter, but the large part of it will come in the quarters 2 to 4, and there will be a substantial improvement. As far as the exports is industry-related exports is concerned, my guess is as good as yours. But I think now that we are cycling bases that itself are depressed, I don't see them going down further. But we'll have to see how strongly they come back.
Thank you very much, and wish you the very best on FY 2025.
Thank you so much.
Thank you. Before we move to the next question, a reminder to the participants, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one. Next question is from the line of Sonali Salgaonkar from Jefferies, India. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good evening, sir, and team. Congratulations on a great set of volume growth. Truly, very encouraging, especially because even last quarter we had a healthy double-digit UVG. So, so my question is on the ad spend. We do understand that you have reinvested part of these gains in the form of higher promotion as a growth-oriented initiative. If we could quantify the ad spend as in an FY 2024, how much was it higher as compared to last year?
Our ad spend was 70% higher than the earlier year.
Got it.
70. So you can see that, Sonali, we put our money where our mouth is, and we said we will invest behind growth. We've invested behind growth, and frankly, we've got the growth.
Absolutely, sir. Then secondly, on the price rollbacks, were there any price rollbacks effected in Q4? And what would be the number for FY 2024 as a whole?
See, again, no price rollbacks in quarter four, because, as we said, the VAM prices, we had already seen the impact. If you see overall, if you look at the difference between our value and volume growth, which is approximately 5%, at a nearly level, we would have reduced prices overall by five. It may be more in some categories and less in some others.
Got it, sir. Very clear. Sir, and lastly, any updates you would like to share on your paints business as well as your lending business?
So let me start with the easier one, which is the lending business. We are still in the process of licensing sources. Really, still to get off the ground, even the pilot is just, you know, beginning to get off the ground. So we're a long way away from even telling you, Sonali, okay, listen, we're now fully in market, and therefore, we should give you results. I think it will be 6-9 months before we come back to you on that business. As far as paints is concerned, the 4 states we have now been there for, you know, a little over 6-9 months. Again, as I keep telling my teams, everything that good companies or, you know, companies with great distribution networks always do well. I would frankly declare success or otherwise, give us another 6 months.
As of now, we've always said it's a range completion exercise. We're not one of those fellows who's getting into the ring to fight with all of these majors. We will leave that to other players who come in to do that. But we are happy with the pace that we are going. But really, I mean, I would declare success or otherwise six months later. Right now, all I can say is we are meeting our action standards, but then we didn't have very great ambitions in the first place.
Got it, sir. Very clear. Sir, and just one last question, this one to Mr. Batra. In the initial remarks, you said that VAM prices, you know, in Q4, the average consumption price was about $900 per MT. Sir, what is it currently? I mean, from the average of Q4, has it gone up?
No, it is at the same level, Sonali. It is-
Got it.
5, that is the same level. Yeah, it is the same.
All right. Got it. Sir, all the best to the team for a great FY 25 as well.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Avi Mehta from Macquarie. Please proceed.
Yeah, hi. I just wanted to clarify the understanding, and sorry to belabor on this, but the way I should look at the next year is while one Q might have some disruption, it is more a transient impact, which will be offset by the remaining quarters. And we, you know, remain kind of focused on driving that double-digit volume growth guidance, which-
Absolutely, right, Avi.
That's correct, right? And second, sir, is it also fair to say that the realization decline that you've been, you know, having about 5% or so, that's kind of coming into the base. So from here on, that number should also trend down or actually become zero. Is, is that the right way to look at that, or would that-
I would say the right way is from the second quarter onwards.
I would say, then it, we would have cycled everything.
On a broad basis, I would say in the year, yes, with the exception of the first quarter, you will find that our values and volumes will match, and if there is any inflation, then we'll come back to you on what we need to do on pricing.
Got it, sir. Got it. Very clear. And the second bit was just, you know, clarification. In the other expenses, the increase is largely because of timing of ad spend only, and-
Largely.
Is there any one-off?
No, no, largely around advertising. Our A&SPs.
Okay. Okay, that's all from me. Thank you.
You have to just remember, because our big quarters are quarter one and quarter four, a lot of our big ads, et cetera, start getting produced in quarter four of the previous year.
Okay, okay. So it's a production cost that comes in here, and that kind of gets-
In the next 15 days, you will see a completely new, you know, we've been asked a lot by the market, where is the new Fevicol? We haven't seen the new Fevicol campaign for some time. So wait another 15 days, Avi, and you'll see where we spend the ad money.
Perfect, sir. Perfect. And, sir, any, you know, innovation, new launch, which you would like to highlight, which you've done or we are, in this quarter, or that's something that will come along with the communication in the first quarter?
No, actually, Arnab, we are, you know, for example, I'll talk about three innovations, all three of which are got off to a really good start in the market. The first is in Fevicol, we have launched a nail-free sealant. It's called Fevicol Ultra, which is, you know, therefore, it's a sealant which is in a plastic canister, which is used. It's got off to a great start. It is now becoming the the sealant of use. It's basically replacing nail, as well as replacing any screws, et cetera, et cetera, and actually tracking above our action standard there. We've also launched a super premium variant of Fevicol called Fevicol Hi-Per , which also is out in the market to a good reception.
But as I said, you know that I'm always conservative, and I only declare success on anything, at least when I've seen it for 12-18 months, but these are both off to a good start. You'd—If you see our whole Fevikwik range, we have now expanded the Fevikwik range, and we have price points of INR 5-INR 75. So there is a Fevikwik, there's a Fevikwik Gel, there is a Fevikwik, which is for, you know, use in when you, when it, a surface may get wet, a Fevicol that you use when surfaces have to be bent and is flexible. So we're basically, obviously, we've done good consumer work, understood some unmet needs, and therefore expanded the Fevikwik brand. So you've got a whole range of products under Fevikwik.
In fact, right now it's available across modern trade, quick commerce, as well as the top-end outlets. Similarly, in waterproofing, we've got a range of what we call economy exterior coatings, which are waterproof coatings, which have just been launched under the Raincoat Neo brand. That has also got off to a good start. In art material, we've relaunched a small brand called Glue Drops, of which you would have seen some advertising. So, you know, we've always maintained Pidilite, innovation is one of our differentiators and strong drivers of growth, and my push to my teams always is one-third of our growth must come out of innovation, and we're very close to that figure.
Got it, sir. Very, very, and very nice to hear. Thank you very much, sir, and congratulations, and wish you luck for the future.
Thank you, Avi. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Arnab Mitra from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. My first question was actually on your non, you know, core businesses and also non-waterproofing. So, you know, if you could help us in the full year FY 2024, how, how much could these businesses grow? And if there is any broad sizes you could share on, let's say, tile adhesives, Araldite, CIPY, some of the, you know, high-growth businesses. And from here on, do you see these businesses continue to track at the high growth you have had in the last couple of years? Or are they hitting a scale where the growth rate could slow down a little bit in this part of the portfolio?
So if I, you know, Arnab, look at three businesses, I will first look at Roff, which is the tile adhesives business, Araldite, and maybe ICA Pidilite, which is the super end, premium end wood finishes. Frankly, on all three, we still have a large runway for growth. They've all grown at very healthy rates. I mean, just to give you a perspective, in February, we inaugurated our eleventh tile adhesive plant close to Lucknow for Roff. Now, Roff has obviously become an extremely... I don't want to share figures because, you know, that wakes up my competitors and gets them overexcited for no reason. So all I can tell you is whether it is Roff, whether it is Araldite, or whether it is ICA Pidilite, and ICA Pidilite, since it's a subsidiary, you will see its results separately and in our annual report.
But you will see that all of these businesses are continuing to be strong growth businesses. And in our way of thinking, we still have a 3-5-year runway for growth before we can even call them, like, you know, core businesses by any stretch of imagination.
Understood. Thanks for that. And on waterproofing, have you seen any change in the growth profile? This is a category which obviously has had no competition in the years. Just qualitatively, does it grow significantly below what the overall growth rate is? Is it something that is dragging on the growth rate overall?
No, actually, not for us. For us, it is growing very healthily and strongly. In fact, the thing is, Arnab, what is happening is there is a very loose definition of what is waterproofing in the current state. Every person likes to look at waterproofing the way like, you know, so the paint companies now have started counting their exterior paints in waterproofing. They've even started counting some primers in waterproofing, because, you know, they'll call them damproof primers, et cetera. But having said that, you know, given again the scope for growth, I mean, consumer research tells us even now that four out of ten homes are doing any form of waterproofing. The job for any good company is to keep expanding that pie while making sure that obviously you're keeping your share and your salience, and which we are continuing to do.
For us, waterproofing is still a strong driver of growth. You know, we're not looking at it in any way being anywhere near a core category, at least for the next five years.
Understood. Understood. Thanks for that. And my last question was on the rural distribution expansion, especially PKD. So what we've seen in working rural expansion is, you know, there is a certain point after which it's not economically worth going deeper. I think you are adding almost 1,000 PKD per quarter. Do you see that scope going ahead also for the next one or two years? Or at this level, it's - you'll probably consolidate and try to increase the traction in that funnel?
... See, we, we keep actually doing both. We have a concept called an Adarsh PKD, where a PKD meets standards, we keep shuffling. But I must tell you, these 13,000 PKD are still only in eight states, so we still have a long runway for growth.
Understood. Thanks for that. And if I could just come ask one last question. I think on the television interview, you mentioned that in your categories, the benefit of the real estate cycle comes with a couple of years lag. Would you say currently what you're seeing in terms of demand has any reflection of the pickup, or that's something which will happen a year or two down the line? I'm asking this because the growth rates have obviously picked up, but there are a lot of initiatives you've taken. So would you ascribe it more to the macro pickup or that's yet to kind of come?
No, there is part of the macro pickup that is definitely happening because there was a lot of unsold real estate and a lot of real estate that was in limbo, which has all got completed. Or there is also a boom in new projects. I mean, you know, these days, those of us who live in Bombay know that you pick up the Bombay Times of India, the first four pages are just announcements on new projects. All of this will benefit us in, you know, years three, four and five. It will benefit us in waterproofing in year two, but otherwise, three, four and five.
Understood. Thanks, sir. That's it from my side. All the best.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Tejas Shah from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for the opportunity and congrats on good volume growth. So you partly answered this question on the previous question, but the part of the tailwind that we are excited about in coming 3-4 years is already playing out as we speak, because mathematically, somewhere the real estate cycle kind of picked up from October 2020 or 2021, around fourth quarter of 2021. So, do you believe that it will accelerate further from here? Or you believe that we are in midst of that cycle, and we are already kind of eating fruit of that cycle?
You know, that's a great question, Tejas, but very difficult to say, because when I talk to real estate developers, they are saying, you know, this is just, we are still in the start or like, you know, we're only one-fourth of the way in the cycle. Having said that, I must say that when I look at, for example, you know, forget the Bombays, Bangalores and Gurgaons, but even if you look at the next stages, the number of new projects coming up, it does appear that the cycle will be a much longer cycle than we think.
Got it. Got it. So second question. I heard you earlier today on TV, where you mentioned that we are creating kind of leadership bandwidth. But I was just wondering that company of our pedigree, be it in paints or jewelry or FMCG, we have not seen such structure of leadership. So just wanted your thoughts or insights around what... why are we creating this structure, and what are we trying to kind of achieve in three, five years or in coming period with this?
Absolutely. That's a great question. See, you know, what distinguishes us from similar-sized companies or even a little bigger companies, you know, having again, spent time in both paints and FMCG, most of these remained 1, 2, or 3 category companies. We are the only company, given the nature of our pioneering business model, that we have 37 different verticals and 37 different categories. Our belief is, given that, you know, take all the projections, if in the whether it is 7, 10 or 12 years, if the Indian economy is going to double in this period of time, we are going to add a new India to us between, in the next what, dash number of years, and what we've done in the first 74, you know, X years of independence. And in our belief, by then, we will probably have 60 verticals.
We therefore felt that it is necessary for us to prepare for the future, put a structure which is, you know, therefore cognizing of this future and actually helps accelerate this future rather than struggling to catch up. That's why, you know, the structure that we've gone into.
Got it, sir. Thanks and all the best for Asian Paints.
Thank you.
Thank you so much. Next question is from the line of Sheal Sequeira from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi, good evening, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. So, just following up on your A&P expenses, you said there's a 70% growth, which, you know, roughly translate to about 3.8% of revenue. So is this the kind of run rate that we are looking going forward as well?
Yeah, we've always said that, you know, we obviously assess according to requirements and how many new categories, et cetera, we are getting into, but we are very comfortable at a rate of between 4% and 4.5%. So I suspect we are in the right ballpark, as we would say.
All right, sir. And, for your... You earlier mentioned that, for the full year, you had a double digit underlying volume growth. Would it be possible to quantify, that for, the standalone, the C&B segment and the B2B segment as well?
Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think the growth in B2B was 12.2%. In the case of Consumer and Bazaar, it was 10.5%, and the cumulative for the company was in double digits, 10.5%.
10.5%. Okay, sir. And, so finally on, on your CapEx guidance, does it still remain at around 3.5%-4% of the revenue?
Between 3% and 5%. Absolutely, yes.
3% and 5%. All right, sir. That will be all, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec. Please proceed.
Yeah, hi, sir. Congratulations for a good set of numbers. A couple of questions. Sir, first, basically, can you indicate on a two-year CAGR basis, the underlying volume growth number, please?
See, on a two-year CAGR, also the number is close to double digits. On a four-year CAGR, it is 13%. So we've now actually, over four years, our underlying volume growth is double digits.
So possible to break it up, say, for two years, if you can?
We'll just give it to you. For two years, Consumer and Bazaar is 13.5%, B2B is 16%, and the total is 15%. For four years.
For four years. Okay, that's helpful. So secondly, just wanted to pick your thoughts when you say rural is growing faster than the urban. What are the underlying variables that we are looking at?
See, remember, for us, the biggest variable is our categories are under-penetrated. See, if I were the soap or toothpaste or a toffee or a chocolate, I don't have to teach people how to use my product. But when I'm doing waterproofing or I'm getting furniture made, or I'm now doing tile adhesives, or I'm now getting things to be stuck together, there is a substantial amount of effort I have to put in, in educating and training both users as well as consumers. This is a decision we took, you know, those of us who have been Pidilite watchers for long, about 7, 8 years ago, we set up a new division called Emerging India, with two sales forces. One that deals with the trade and services, the trade, and one that actually just creates demand.
All of this we put into place with our initiatives around Pidilite Ki Duniya, Dr. Fixit centers, et cetera, et cetera. All of that is now, you know, has been paying us actually over the last three years. For the last three years, for us, rural growth has always been higher than urban growth.
Sir, the reason to ask this is, you also indicated that there will be near-term softness because of a few variables. Now, technically, given everything that you just indicated, we could continue to see pretty decent growth like what we have seen in the last year. So just trying to rehash the question, like, are there any specific variables that you actually keep an eye on? Can you-
See, actually, that question is, you know, the, you know, that statement is actually got pulled out of con... What we were just saying is there are very near-term, in the next one month, you know, categories like ours see a disruption due to the election, because of movement of people and material, movement of goods, cash availability and people, you know, labor availability all becomes an issue. Logistics at times becomes an issue. So we see as always in our categories, a certain amount of variability or a certain amount of softness during an election time. That's frankly, other than that, if you'll ask me for the full year, are we optimistic about the year? Absolutely, yes.
Sure, sir. So second question is on VAM and VA. One of the other listed players, they are actually backward integrating. What sort of impact do we see on the cost curve for them, and hence it will indirectly have a bearing on how we position our products in the marketplace? How are we looking at mitigating this particular aspect?
See, that's a good question, but remember, we have made VAM ourselves in the past, as have other manufacturers. Up to now, as far as VAM is concerned, the economic size of a plant worldwide does not justify a plant in India. We've obviously looked at this, but obviously people have done other work. The fact of the matter is, you know, obviously, we buy from the largest players in the world. We are in touch with them. We've got working with them, and therefore, we do not believe there will be any substantial advantage of making VAM domestically as compared to procuring it internationally, even with minimal import duties.
Sure. That's helpful. Sir, just last question, we, you indicated we have 37 different verticals and categories. Just a broader question on, to what extent do we cross-sell amongst these verticals? If you could give a broad number on percentage of our total revenues or across verticals or some way to understand this, that would be great, sir.
See, what we do is we obviously have common, you know, we convert our sales into common, what we call PD points for dealers, so that they get a benefit of being a Pidilite dealer. We do work with user, and obviously, across divisions, when we find that we keep. I mean, there are products that are sold with, like, you know, take our sealants. Our sealants are sold by three different divisions. So on a regular basis, we keep doing that. Very difficult to ascribe a percentage, because one division selling the other, so on and so forth, and the other one selling another division's products. Very difficult, but the fact of the matter is, as we look at channels, obviously, we try and make sure that we cover all channels.
Okay, but sir, if we have to look at bundling, is it something which is possible across verticals? Do we do it, or is it something which is work in progress?
We do it when the channel is common. There, we do it, but remember, we go across six or seven completely discrete channels, which have very little overlap with each other.
Okay. Sir, possible to quantify some numbers over here on any categories where we actually do this?
So see, again, remember, like, for example, I'll give you an example. Now, when we deal with architects, interior decorators, and large contractors, we have a separate division called One Pidilite.... So this person has, you know, therefore, as far as the architect or the contractor is concerned, he's got one key account manager who deals with him, and whether he does waterproofing, whether he, you know, puts tiles, whether he makes furniture, any of his you know, needs are met by that one key account manager. Now, different divisions may bill him, but it's done all by one fellow. So that's why I'm saying it's very difficult, but I would say, you know, there would at least be anywhere between 400 and 600 large dealers in the country who would be selling more than three Pidilite divisions.
That's helpful. Sir, last question on paints. You indicated that you would indicate whether it is successful or not after six months. Possible to indicate the yardstick that you are looking at over here?
We are clear, as we said, we want to, A, be in an area where we believe we have a right to win, which is small town and rural India. There we want a viable position which is self-sustaining and profitable. So just wait and watch, and then we will come back and tell you when we do that.
Sure, sir. Thank you so much. All the very best. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Participant, to ask a question, you may press star and one. Next question is from the line of Ashish Kanodia from Citigroup. Please proceed.
Hi, sir, just one question. So in FY 2024, we have seen, you know, sustained, higher investment in branding and customer-facing initiative, and that kind of helping, you know, double-digit UVG. So, you know, when you look into FY 2025 with ambition and target of double-digit UVG, do you see, you know, this accelerated or higher investment in branding and customer-facing initiative continuing in FY 2025 as well? Or do you believe that, you know, the levels which we have seen in 2024 is ample to drive that double-digit growth?
See, obviously, you will not see the level of increases that you've seen in the last year, right? We believe we are, you know, ±10%. We've always felt that the ideal number for us to achieve our growth objectives is anywhere between 4% and 4.5%, so we are largely already there.
Sure. But apart from ad spend, any, you know, is there any other expenses where, you know, you are investing, maybe in terms of dealer margins, et cetera? Are there any other items as well, where there's a push to drive higher growth?
Oh, yes. There is a whole set of measures, Ashish, across the board. I mean, you know, while you see the consumer advertising, we actually spend, of our advertising, pretty much half on the users. So whether it be a carpenter, a mason, a plumber, a coating contractor, a tile layer, we have loyalty programs, we have various incentives and obviously a lot of education for each of these. We have obviously programs for dealers, both across divisions and within divisions. We have therefore a whole set of initiatives. We are obviously investing in route to market.
So whether it be in terms of distribution points, number of people, demand generation, on a consistent basis, what we call customer-facing growth investments, is something at Pidilite we never skimp about, because we are clear believers in the future, and we don't like, you know, therefore, worry about 1 or 2 quarters of cost to be able to make sure that we are on the right track.
Sure, sir. And just maybe one more follow-up. You know, you touched upon the volume and value growth. Now, when you look at the, you know, the current pricing versus, you know, where, you know, other players might be, do you see, you know, there is still some scope to take a pricing action more to, you know, kind of drive higher volume growth and gain market share?
I mean, you know, unless, I mean, it looks from where we are sitting, it seems very unlikely that we will see any further moderation in input prices. And there, you know, there is a certain amount of price equilibrium between us and our competition. So I frankly, unless there is some, again, you know, black swan events, you will not see any, further reductions in price as far as we are concerned. In fact, in the second half of the year, if crude or, you know, there is some, inflation, then we will look at pricing action to the other side.
Sure, sir, this is very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Bharat Sheth from Quest Investment. Please proceed.
Hi, thanks for the opportunity, and congratulations, sir, on good set of number.
Thank you.
Sir, on our slide number, presentations, as we have shown one category, a growth category, which is emerging category with significant potential, and we expect to grow at 2-4 times of GDP. So can you give some more color, which are those, brands or which are—and how much does it contribute to overall our, top line, and how do we see in next 5 years this growth business to be part of the business? And is it the same when we have restructured, I mean, we have created several, leader in our company?
See, our whole, you know, remember, the whole Pidilite model is, A, look at pioneer categories, turn them into growth categories, and then look at growth categories and turn them into core categories. Now, if you take, for example, something like tile adhesives, 5 years back, we would talk about it as a pioneer adhesive, as a pioneer initiative. We had just started on the journey, so on and so forth. Now, today it is very clearly a growth initiative. I mean, you know, forget 2-4 times GDP. If I look at over the last 4 years, we will be at, you know, the business has actually gone up about 8-9 times.... So therefore, we are very clear that we will keep identifying categories, make sure that we get consumer validation for those categories, and turn them into growth categories.
So whether it is Roff, whether it is Araldite, whether it's our joineries business, each of these, in our views, are strong growth categories. And of course, the largest growth category still remains waterproofing.
Correct. Sir, get some kind of a sense, how much has this growth category currently contribute to top line?
Yeah. Not to top line. I can tell you that, you know, when we started on this journey, pioneer and growth categories were 20% of our business and 80% was core. We are now at 55-45. 55 is core and 45 is growth and pioneers.
Okay. And, EBITDA-wise also, is it fair understanding it, it is in same rate or some maybe because where A&P requirement in growth and pioneer is higher, so that will ultimately help us?
What we do, Manoj bhai, is we don't worry about the EBITDA of these categories in the initial time, but we worry about the gross margin.
Correct.
The gross margins will be similar to our other categories, but we will obviously invest a lot more in these categories via both sales force as well as A&P, as well as below the line. So the EBITDA may not be same, because obviously, these, these require... You know, these are fast-growing children that require a lot more nutrition than grown adults. But overall, we make sure that the gross, they're all at a gross margin, where when they reach a certain size, they are, you know, equal to the other categories and not disadvantaged in any way.
Great, sir, and all the best.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this was the last question for the day. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments.
I thank you, thank you very much, to everybody for joining the call and for your continued interest in Pidilite. Wish each of you a very good evening and a great year ahead. Thank you.
Thank you very much. On behalf of Prabhudas Lilladher Private Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.