Good day, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Q1 FY 2019 earnings conference call of Pidilite Industries Limited, hosted by IIFL Capital Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Avi Mehta from IIFL Capital Limited. Thank you, over to you, Mr. Mehta.
Thank you, Margaret. Hi, good evening, everyone. On behalf of IIFL, I would like to welcome all of you to the 1Q FY 2019 conference call for Pidilite Industries. From the company, we have with us the key senior management, including Mr. Apurva Parekh, Executive Director, and Mr. P. Ganesh, CFO. I would now like to hand over the call to the management for their comments. Over to you, sir.
Good evening, everyone. I will begin with a summary of the financial performance for the quarter ended June 2018 for the standalone business. On a comparable basis, net sales at INR 1,592 crore grew by 21.2% over the same quarter last year, with underlying volume and mix growth of 17.9%. This was driven by a 20.2% growth in sales volume and mix of Consumer and Bazaar products, and 7.3% growth in sales volume and mix of industrial products. EBITDA before non-operating income at INR 359 crore grew by 17.3% over the same quarter last year on the back of input-led contraction in gross margin and higher A&SP spends. Profit after tax during the current quarter at INR 267 crore grew by 23% over the same quarter last year. I will move to a summary of the consolidated business for the quarter ended June 2018.
Net sales at INR 1,818 crore grew by 23%, adjusting for GST impact over the same quarter last year. This excludes the sales of Cyclo division of Pidilite USA, which was sold in June 2017. EBITDA before non-operating income stood at INR 384 crore for the quarter and grew by 19.6% over the same quarter last year. Profit after tax during the current quarter at INR 240 crore grew by 6.3% over the same quarter last year. The lower rate of growth in consolidated PAT as compared to the growth in EBITDA is mainly on account of elimination of profit on intercompany transfer of certain intangible assets and the effect of tax thereon during the current quarter, and the profit on sale of Cyclo business in the first quarter of last financial year. We have delivered another quarter of strong double-digit volume growth.
We see gradually improving demand conditions while input cost volatility and currency-led inflation remain areas of concern. We remain committed to our strategic agenda of delivering consistent and profitable volume-led growth. The floor is now open for questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handset mode while asking your question. Anyone who would like to ask a question, please press star and one at this time. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Anyone who would like to ask a question, you may press star and one. The first question from the line of Avnish Rai from Edelweiss Fund. Please go ahead.
Sir, thanks for the opportunity with the volume growth, congrats on that. My first question is on ICA. After three quarters of negative growth rate, we are seeing 41% growth rate in this quarter. Is it because of the sales and marketing efforts, or is it because maybe the new factory has started? Could you discuss whether this is sustainable?
Yeah. A couple of points on this front, Avnish. One is that the last couple of quarters were also impacted to some extent because of the DRI matter which we had. That is behind us. The supply situation is back to normal, the results are gearing up on that front. That's one part of it. The second part, which I would also like to highlight, is that the worst part of the business is now with ICA Pidilite and for part of the quarter. That's also contributing to an increased growth rate. If you normalize for that, ICA Pidilite has still grown strongly at 20%.
The margin profile, where do you see currently it's around 5% kind of margin. Obviously, the longer term should be much higher. When do you see the margin trajectory actually improving towards, say, the double digits?
As we have mentioned previously as well, very soon we would have manufacturing which is starting up and the business is also as it grows will develop in terms of scale, and both of these factors should contribute to an improvement in margins. Going forward, we would expect margins to get better on these counts.
When does the factory start? Any timeline you can give?
Yeah. It should actually start in a quarter or so. Some of the products manufacturing has started.
Right. Do you get any tax benefit there?
No.
Sir, second question is on the international subsidiaries. If I see most of the subsidiaries, either EBITDA is down or it is negative except Middle East business and Bamco. On the INR 125 crore sales, you are doing just a INR 3 crore EBITDA. Any comments why such a low EBITDA and what is the game plan here?
If you look at the international business, the U.S. business had some impact on account of a drop in the adult coloring space. A couple of geographies like Brazil and Egypt, they have a bit of uncertainty on the macroeconomic front. Beyond that, the other factors which have impacted is an increase in input cost in some of the geographies and a couple of geographies like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, we are also investing significantly. It is a combination of these factors which has resulted in a lower EBITDA.
Sir, to add to it, if you look at our Bangladesh and Sri Lanka subsidiary, we have good position in both the countries. The sales growth is good. Quarter-to-quarter margin can get impacted, but we have good business in both the countries. As far as some of the other country goes, there are some challenges, but in most of the places we have taken action like in Brazil and Middle East to cut down the losses, improve the margins. Some of those actions have been working.
Sir, last question. What is the current VAM prices? On pricing, do you intend to take more hikes? In the past, you have restricted your hikes to one in a year. Any change there?
Yeah. If you look at VAM prices, the average for us in quarter one was around twelve and a half dollars. If you were to look at today's spot purchase rate price, it's closer to $13.25. Yes, some amount of price increases have been taken both in Q1 as well as post the end of Q1. Depending on how the raw material position shapes up going forward, in case of increases, we could see some further increases.
Sir, what was the ad spend? Around three and a half percent?
No, it was about 4.7%.
Okay, sir. That's what
Ad spend during the quarter has been higher than the annual average.
Full year you are still maintaining 3.5%-4%, right?
Yeah. Full year we should still be in the 4% or thereabout range.
Okay, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Anyone who would like to ask a question, you may press star and one. The next question from the line of Gunjan Prithiani from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thanks for taking my questions. I had a couple of follow-ups on the international business. On the Brazil, we've stated our intent to divest it at some point. Is there any progress on that discussion or that plan is completely, it's not being considered at the moment?
No, our focus in Brazil has been first is to minimize our losses, which if you see over last several quarters, our losses have been minimized and have come down. That has been our primary focus. Brazilian economy continues to see various ups and downs, which is impacting them. We have said in the past that we are open for strategic options, but the current priority is to continue to strengthen the business to eliminate losses. Also the local team has taken some good initiative to introduce some new products and try to find a way to grow even though the economic situation has not been so good.
Are we at all engaging or trying to figure out a way to either withdraw from that market or divest that investment?
No, currently we continue to operate, if any strategic option were to arise, we will carefully take a look at it. Local economic situation there is a bit difficult. If any opportunity or any strategic option were to come up, we will certainly take a good look at it. In the meanwhile, the effort is to continue to operate it in an efficient manner with minimal losses and some profits.
Even on the U.S. side, this coloring business has been slow for last two quarters, if I recollect. Is there something to really worry about that this business is also going to have issues in future?
If you look at Sargent Art business, we had couple of years of very high growth. In America, there was this whole segment, which is adult coloring segment, which has seen huge growth. These are some trends which happen from time to time. This trend has really picked up in America, and this resulted into very significant growth for Sargent Art . The slow growth may be for four to five quarters and not for couple of quarters. There has been slowdown mainly because of this, where we had seen very sharp increase in sales, which has now come down. We continue to have some very good customers like Walmart, Amazon, Hobby Lobby. We continue to work with them, and we continue to have a good business with some of them.
U.S. target business is in better situation, but it's not a very large business in terms of the U.S. type of a market. We still have good product portfolio and we have good customer base.
Okay. Moving on the domestic business, on the VAM prices now, you guys have taken some price increases. Are those enough to offset the input cost pressure that you've seen, or you would look at more price increases going ahead?
If you look at the quarter one results, there is margin contraction of about 0.9%. As I mentioned, we have taken some increases in quarter one. We have taken some more increases towards the end of quarter one. Depending on how the raw material prices situation goes forward from here, we will take calls in terms of pricing.
What are the kind of price increases you've taken so far in 1Q? I also noticed that you mentioned July also, some price increases have been taken.
The price increases have been in the range of 3%-5% in the products that we have taken increases.
Sir, there are price increases in different products. We have not taken in the same product price increase in both June and July.
This is again not across the board increase.
Okay. Only in white adhesives then?
No, these are in specific products. Beyond VAM essentials, there are other raw materials which are either solvent-based, rubber-based, et cetera, which have also seen price increases. Depending on the product which has seen raw material price increases, we take price corrections.
Okay. This is last question from my side. Now that this is fourth quarter of double-digit volume growth that you guys have reported. Would you now call out that there is a decisive recovery in demand outlook now, and the industry is growing at this level, or is it market share gains because this volume growth, if I notice, has been for the last four quarters, which is post GST, and we did see rates coming off for adhesives. Is it market share gains? Is it industry growth being this strong? If you can just give more color around the demand outlook, please.
Overall, the demand situation definitely is improving. It's a gradual improvement which is being seen. While there are volatility around input cost, while there is currency-led inflation, et cetera, overall, we are seeing a gradual improvement in the demand situation.
Any market share gains?
Yes, certainly in some of the products we have definitely gained market share.
Okay, awesome. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Chanchal Khandelwal from Birla Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Congrats on good set of numbers. I wanted to understand more on the construction chemical. How is their growth being on the construction chemicals, and specifically on the application both Nina and Percept has done very good set of growth. If you can highlight the growth from there.
Construction chemical business has done well. Most of our product segments have done well in Q1, and most regions have also done well. As far as Nina and Percept goes, after their acquisition, lot of initiatives have been taken to improve demand, to develop new customer segments, and some of these initiatives are now working. Earlier, they were very much dependent on one or two end user segments. We have expanded that base, we have added more people, and those initiatives are resulting into better growth despite the construction market being not so favorable.
Sure. If you can just highlight with Nina and Percept, how can that be a growth driver? Will you roll it to a residential. Now, if I'm understanding it right, this is mostly for industrial and residential building. Will it roll it to end customer also, and can this be a big growth driver going forward?
As of right now, we are not looking at individual small building or a flat or anything like that. There is a huge opportunity into commercial complexes, manufacturing plant, office complexes, infrastructure project, and large buildings. These are the kind of sectors where Nina and Percept are operating. Basically larger projects and not an individual small house or a flat or anything like that. We believe there is a big opportunity in that segment, and currently we are focused there.
Sure. Thanks, sir. Wish you all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Kunal Shah from IIFL. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good evening, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. My first question is regarding the gross margin moderation that we have seen. While you have suggested that VAM prices have been higher and you have taken price increases, between the two segments we have, can you give a rough qualitative idea on where the margin pressure is higher? Is it on the industrial product side or on the Consumer and Bazaar side? Where the price increases have been as well.
Pressure is in both. If you know, like say a product like vinyl acetate monomer is used across our portfolio. Our industrial business also uses it as well as our Consumer and Bazaar. If you look at imported raw material, again, both the segments use imported raw material. There has been some impact on both.
Again, the price increases which we have taken, that's also across both the segments.
Okay. My second question was regarding the tax rate. You have said it is because of intercompany transfer of some intangible asset. Can you give us a bit more details on how the dynamics works exactly?
Yeah. The IPR asset pertaining to the woodstain business, woodstain business, which is there in Pidilite, that has now moved to ICA Pidilite, which is our joint venture, because that's the company which specializes in wood finishes. There is an intercompany profit which arises on the transfer of these assets. On consolidation, this profit gets eliminated. The standalone Pidilite business in which the profit is recorded, the standalone business pays tax, which remains in P&L. That's the reason you're seeing a decent PAT increase. In the same breath, last year Q1, we had the sale of Cyclo business by Pidilite USA, and where there was no tax impact on the profit on sale of Cyclo business because of carry forward losses. Because of both of these factors, we are seeing a lower growth rate as far as PAT concerned.
The higher tax rate on consolidated, as Ganesh explained, is very simple that, when it's intercompany income, because you are not consolidated, that income gets eliminated, but tax paid on that income in the standalone account also shows in consolidation. That results into a higher tax in consolidated without the corresponding income.
Okay. Just a follow-up question. What would be your guidance for the tax rate for the full year in FY 2019?
Tax rate as far as FY19 would not be very different from FY18. What we are seeing in quarter one is more of a one-off impact.
Okay.
It will be slightly higher.
Versus FY18, the tax rate will be marginally higher because one of our plants which had tax exemption has now gone out of exemption.
Thank you. That's all from my side.
Thank you. Anyone who would like to ask a question, you may press star and one. The next question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, my first question is on the market growth rates. If you could provide some color on the market growth rate for our key products, it would be helpful.
We are seeing good growth across the different categories that we operate in. It's been across the board growth.
All right. Sir, would it be possible to quantify the market size over here? If one does delve into your past annual reports, we can make out around 17% CAGR growth rate over last 10 years, which is quite encouraging. If you could provide some numbers over here, like what the market size is, like is it INR 10,000 crores or INR 13,000-INR 15,000 crores? That's something on the adhesives side and specifically on the construction chemical side as well. What is the market size that we are looking at?
There are no real published data. There is no real accurate data which could define the market size. In our Consumer and Bazaar adhesives, you can assume that it would be in the range of around 50%-60% would be our best estimate. There is no accurate data to support this. I would like to say it with that disclaimer. As far as waterproofing market goes, again, same thing, there is no accurate data available, but in that case, the market size is not really relevant, but the market potential is very important. The current penetration level of waterproofing products still continues to be very low. In terms of both, either people are using conventional waterproofing methods or not using waterproofing methods at all. Hence, the growth potential of waterproofing chemical is substantial. Current market size is not very relevant.
Okay.
In industrial products, if you look at it, in industrial products, our market shares are lower. There is a greater competitive intensity there.
Okay. Sir, in each of these three, how important is imports as a segment? Do we see this as a threat going forward or post GST, do you think this number actually will go down and it enhances our growth opportunity?
See, most of these products, the market share of imported products is small, if that is what you are asking. The market share of imported products is not very substantial at all. However, in all of these products, there is a good amount of competitive intensity. There always has been. There are large multinational players, there are national companies, regional companies. There are various companies operating, but the share of imported products is not substantial.
Okay. Sir, last question, if I may. In adhesives, what is the segment which excites us more? PVA definitely is something which is very big for us. How do we look at cyanoacrylate, radiation curable, the other sub-segments which are there?
We find all the segments exciting. We have a very wide range which, it starts from school children, to household, to all kind of carpenters, to industries. All segments are exciting. Each segment is unique, and we have good product portfolio. We have strong brand across most of the segments. I would not like to distinguish between one over the other. We believe there is a good growth potential in most of the adhesive product segments.
Okay. That helps, sir. I'll join back with you for more questions. Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Prashant Kutty from Sundaram Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you for the opportunity, sir. Sorry for dwelling this question once again. Typically, if you look at our bases from here on in terms of both revenue side as well as our EBITDA growth rates, even for that matter, the gross margin numbers, we recently pretty much getting into a high base zone. First of all, I just wanted to understand over here, is that the gross margin that is clocked for the quarter, is it that Q1 is usually a weak quarter in terms of gross margins, and then it usually picks up?
No, I would not say that with gross margin levels quarter to quarter, there should be significant difference. If there is a difference, it is not because of nature of business or seasonality, but it's more because of the prevailing raw material prices. What we have done on the selling price increases. Gross margin are not dependent on any kind of seasonality as far as we go.
Okay. The reason I ask that is because if you look at the base for the next three quarters, we're almost looking at about 53% kind of a gross margin number, whereas we clocked about 50.5% for the quarter. Just understanding that even after taking in some price increases, we haven't really seen a pickup, or are we probably expecting this pickup to happen as the quarter goes by? Is what I was trying to understand.
Some price increase action, as Ganesh covered earlier, we have already taken some price actions in the first quarter. We took some price action in July. You must remember that we have been saying for last few quarters, or maybe last year and a half, that our gross margins were at historic levels, and some correction in gross margin was possible. Some of the raw material like VAM were operating at $800 level, which was quite low. Now that has corrected to $1,200, $1,300. Some compression on gross margin was likely to happen. Overall, our operating margin depends on both combination of the kind of sales growth that we achieve and the gross margin. Going forward, the operating margin would depend on what kind of top-line growth we deliver, while there may be some contraction on gross margin as compared to last year.
Okay. Another element which can come into play is the relative change in mix. These are the factors which will impact the gross margin.
Okay. Sure. Just as an extension, and since you spoke about the mix as a whole, especially post GST and especially the cut in adhesives, have we seen an acceleration in growth rates for, let's say, our premium segment or probably the value-added offerings, in terms of probably has the demand increased for that? Because that is probably what drives our mix element. Any such instances over there?
Again, as the tax rates moderate and come down, you should see a natural uptick as regards our demand situation is concerned. There are multiple factors like you had a low base because of GST, before that you had demonetization, et cetera. It's difficult to pinpoint how much of the growth is on account of which factor. Directionally, if you look at it with lower tax rates and cheaper products to consumers, demand should go up.
Have we seen instances of that, at least in the last three, four quarters? Because we've been seeing double-digit volume growth rates.
As I mentioned, while there could be an element of that, it's difficult to pinpoint.
Also, as I covered earlier, we believe that we have gained share in some of our product categories.
Okay. Just one clarification over here. The other expense number for the last two quarters has been reasonably high. Is it only because of the ad expense element, or is there any other element?
Yeah. The increase is primarily on account of higher A&SP expense.
Okay. Sure. Thank you very much, and all the very best to you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nimesh Shah from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. Sir, I just wanted to know the amount of this profit because of this intercompany transfer.
Yeah.
quoted in standalone and not in consolidated.
Yeah. It's an amount of about INR 33 crore.
Okay. The entire difference between the other income on standalone and consolidated is because of that?
Yeah.
Okay. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Anyone who would like to ask a question, you may press star and one. The next question is from the line of Amnish Aggarwal from Prabhudas Lilladher. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, Ganesh. A few questions from my side.
Yeah.
First being that in this INR 33 crores of intercompany transfer, how much tax we have paid on this?
It's a 23% tax on that.
23%?
Correct.
Okay. Secondly, if we look at our standalone numbers, our Consumer and Bazaar growth is 23%. Out of this 23%, can you give some granularity that which segment, say it is art material, adhesives, and construction chemical, three segments are there. Which one has grown faster where we are witnessing more traction?
Again, the growth has been good across the categories that we operate in. While we don't share category-specific growth numbers, what I can share with you is that the growth has been good across segments.
Okay. You see, my question was because if I look at, say, some of the other industries which are actually users of our products, may it be, say, your plywood or laminate or some of these ceramic tile companies, et cetera, there the growth rates have been very muted. Even some of the largest players, they have reported, say, very low single digit or even decline in sales. That's the context in which I'm looking at this question.
I'm not familiar with the growth segment you are referring, but I can say that in most of our bigger product categories, we have seen good growth rate in the first quarter.
Okay. Sir, you have also indicated that there have been some price action. Can you give us some idea that what could be the quantum of prices on your average portfolio?
Sorry, can you repeat the question?
Sir, you have taken some price increases in, say, last quarter and this quarter. Can you quantify that on our average portfolio? What could be the quantum of that?
Again, it's difficult to put an average because we are talking about multiple categories, multiple products. What I can share is when we've taken price increases, they've been largely in the range of 3% to 5%. It's not a price increase which is taken at a point in time. Depending on how the raw material prices move as well, you would have price increases for a set of products at a point in time, for another set of products at a different point in time.
Okay. Sir, finally, just one question. If I look at Pidilite over the years, earlier our margin guidance, sustainable EBITDA margin guidance used to be something like 18%-19%, which a few quarters back, we update to 20%-21%, and then to 22%-23%. Given the fact that now your input costs are firm, and last year we had margins of last two years, 24%-25%, do you think that we can again, what sort of, say, medium-term margin, your guidance or range we should be looking at?
Again, as we have mentioned, we expect to operate in a band of EBITDA margins where you could look at a 21%-22% on the lower end, and we have gone to a 25%-26% at the higher end. Typically, we would expect to operate within this band.
Okay, the band will prevail.
Yeah.
Okay, sir. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Chanchal Khandelwal from Birla Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. On the volume growth, last 4 quarters you have shown strong volume growth, and this is also at the time when we were expanding the distribution reach. If you can quantify how much % of that volume growth has come from distribution reach and how much from the general increase in the demand. The second question is on the industrial side in the margin, specifically in industrial, normally the margin comes with a gap because it is difficult to take a price increase. Am I reading it right?
First answer, see, it is difficult to quantify that because when your sales goes up in a town, it is difficult to exactly quantify how much is because of the increase in demand and how much is because of addition of new outlets. One of the reasons for that is also very strong indirect distribution in India. It is not very easy to quantify that. One thing I can say that our smaller population centers are growing at faster rates than the bigger population centers.
How is the mix in smaller population? Is the mix better normally?
Mix in terms of product mix?
Yeah.
Product mix is similar.
Okay.
Yeah.
Sorry. The smaller towns you are expanding, has that expansion been done, or you think there is more scope to do it?
If you know, in India, almost 75% of population stays in villages, which are typically 5,000 population and less. That is real hinterland and smaller population centers. There is obviously significant potential to expand distribution over the years. A very, very large population of India stays in small population centers. All of that is not unserved today. A lot of that gets served through indirect distribution. To answer your question, yes, there is good potential to keep on expanding distribution.
Sure.
Even within bigger cities, there is a lot of expansion happening in terms of periphery areas or new areas. There is always, in country like India, good potential to expand distribution.
Sure. On the margin part?
What was the second question?
Yeah.
The industrial margin.
Yeah. As far as IP business is concerned, yes, your understanding is right that these are also negotiated prices because you are dealing with B2B customers. Yes, these are negotiated prices. Therefore, in a sense, when raw material prices increase, the pass-on is not something which is immediate.
Sure. Thanks. Now lastly on the CapEx spend, last two quarter CapEx spend has been high. Assume that the margins cushion is not there next two, three quarters. Will you prioritize margin over I mean, how is the decision taken with margin and the CapEx spend? How does the math work?
In a sense, the A&SP spend is not something we would look at as a lever towards maintaining margins. As far as EBITDA margins go, that would be more of a combination of things like sales mix, the pricing, cost optimization initiatives, et cetera. There are multiple levers through which you can actually optimize your margin. Clearly, A&SP is something we would not look at as a primary driver for managing margins.
Sure. Thanks. Wish you all the best.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, we would like to remind our participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Amit Purohit from CGS-CIMB. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations. Just on the margin side again, on the price hike that we have taken. Is the price hike that you indicated is also on the industrial side, or are we referring to only consumer segment?
It is across both segments
Okay. Because at the consumer segment, their performance has been decent. It's just the drag is largely by the industrial business. Is that the right assessment on a standalone basis?
Yes, the growth rates have been higher for the quarter as far as the Consumer and Bazaar business is concerned as compared to the industrial products business. Can you speak what the question on that?
No, no. I'm just saying that the EBITDA growth also for the Consumer and Bazaar segment is up close to about 31% versus an industrial business EBITDA EBIT growth of about 3% on the segmental performance. Clearly, the margin concern is more on the industrial side. Whereas Consumer and Bazaar, which grew at 20%, is still at the EBIT level, is growing at 31%. From that context, I'm just trying to understand.
Yeah. Again, if you look at the margin profile, the Consumer and Bazaar business margin profile is definitely higher than the industrial products in terms of the margins we make.
Higher growth rate helps that business have better profit growth as well.
Okay. Operating leverage also plays out.
Of course. Yes, you're right.
Okay. Rather than the gross margin %.
Gross margin are impacted in both, higher sales growth in Consumer and Bazaar has helped achieve better operating leverage.
Okay, fair. That's interesting, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Anyone who would like to ask a question, you may press star and one. The next question is from the line of Avi Mehta from IIFL Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Just a clarification on the margin front. As Amit has rightly pointed out, the contraction in margins that we see in the industrial segment has been much higher versus what we've seen in the Consumer and Bazaar segment on a year-over-year basis. Is that difference largely because of the operating leverage? Would that be a fair thing?
No, that's not the only thing. In industrial business, Avi, you may be aware that our industrial business is made up of lot of different businesses like organic pigment, industrial adhesive, industrial resin. Each one of them have very different margin profile. There is also a product mix which also has an impact on margin. As far as industrial product business goes, I would not look at very closely the quarter-to-quarter number for both sales growth and margin growth. For that business, we have to look at a little longer time horizon.
Okay.
Seasonal factors can impact gross margin and sales growth.
No, sir, you're right. The reason why I was looking at that is because if I recollect in 1Q of FY 2018 also, we had a very big impact because of the mix. Pigments had grown faster, if I recollect. Hence I was just trying to connect that even this year, is that what is the reason or is there something else as well?
Multiple reasons. It is where there is a higher material cost as well as mix. Both are the reason.
Okay, sir. The second thing, sir, while you have indicated the range which you have maintained at around 21%-26%, given the price increases and given where the demand environment is, what could be the risk that you see in. It looks like you are more in the higher end of the range. Would my understanding be incorrect, sir? At this juncture, you have done almost 100 basis points higher. You are almost at 21%-22% right now itself. You have taken price increases beyond that. What am I missing? Do you expect the end mix was poorer? Is it that we should expect things to be in the higher end of the range?
I think when Ganesh was saying a range like that, he is saying it over a long period of time, over the years, we operate as a company in that kind of a band, not from quarter to quarter or this quarter to next quarter. One of the key reasons which will impact the margin is also the kind of sales growth that we achieve. What I am trying to say is quarter to quarter, looking at EBITDA margin and trying to project for next quarter is something which cannot be done. The range that we are saying is that we would like to operate in 21%-22% kind of a range. Actually, it has been fluctuating from around 19%, 18% few years ago to about 25%, 26% in some quarters as well.
Okay, sir.
Ideally, what we are comfortable with is what is easily about 21%-22% kind of EBITDA margin. It can go up, and if it can go up, for some quarter, it may go up as well.
Also the input cost is also a dynamic phenomenon. If you go back and look at quarter three, the VAM prices for us was about $975. Right now, as far as quarter one is concerned, we are looking at $100. If you look at today's spot price, it is about $1,325. It could go up, it could moderate and correct. It's also a variable which is not a predictable one.
I think just to give you an idea, our endeavor is to achieve consistent double-digit volume growth while operating in a reasonable gross margin and EBITDA margin kind of a band. For us, both of those band are very healthy. While they can go up or down from quarter to quarter, for last many years, both our gross margin and EBITDA margin have been in a healthy range. They could go up and go down because of various factors like raw material cost, dollar exchange rate, et cetera. Our endeavor is to achieve consistent double-digit kind of growth approaching towards 14%-15% is the endeavor. If you see in the first quarter of the last few quarters, we are now sort of inching towards achieving consistent double-digit volume growth. That is the key objective.
We are not overly worried about gross margin and EBITDA margin, as long as it operates within a healthy range.
Okay, sir. Fair enough. The second was on something that I've always been asking. Would you like to call out the recovery now, or would you still say that you are cautious because, the last few quarters I've been asking for-
As you know, after many years, we don't like to call out a recovery or not call out a recovery. It's always very difficult to predict. What you can see is from our numbers and the trend appears to be favorable, there appears to be gradual improvement in demand.
Okay.
We don't like to necessarily call out anything. The figures are showing a gradual improvement in demand and a more consistent growth rate.
Okay. The second bit was on the category, just a clarification. If you could help, A, clarify which categories have you seen market share in, and B, if you could share the handicraft adhesives segment. Has that seen a recovery from the earlier quarters when that was kind of being a drag on our growth rates? Those were the only things.
In several of the segments in adhesives, we have seen growth. As it was expected that after GST implementation, companies who are non-compliant or companies who are not paying their taxes will find it more difficult to do business, and some of that benefit will move to organized players. In some of our segments, we have seen that. One is because of GST, as well as some of the initiatives we have taken to improve our share in some of the categories where we took several actions to do so. I would say in some of the product categories within adhesives, we have seen GST market share improvement. Waterproofing chemical, I would not talk about market share because the main objective is about expanding the market and achieving higher growth. As far as handicraft adhesives go, it's a smaller part of turnover.
That segment, while our sales and volumes have stabilized, that segment has seen a significant trend change. With handicraft adhesive market, the type of beads people use and the kind of fabric design which is being done recently is a lot different than what it was done two to three years ago. While some of the competitive pressure in that category we have been able to overcome, there is a significant trend change which has happened which has impacted the market. The overall contribution of this category is not that high. 2% or 0%.
The other parts of the space, whether it's in the form of stationery adhesives, et cetera, the other parts of this category, they continue to do well.
Okay, sir. Perfect, sir. That's all from my side. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you. Anyone who would like to ask a question, you may press star and one. The next question from the line of Rachit Goradia from Bay Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, this is Nikunj Doshi here from Bay Capital. Just wanted to know, after implementation of GST, have you seen any rationalization of warehousing costs and logistic costs or any benefits that you see coming in?
We have worked on a new network design, certainly there is benefit where, very suboptimal depots in certain states we have shut down. That impact has started flowing in. In terms of significant reduction in freight cost, we have not seen because there has been a contrary increase in the freight cost because of the increase in oil prices. We have shut down some of our smaller depots in smaller states, where a depot is no longer required.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. Anyone who would like to ask a question, you may press star and one. The next question from the line of Abhishek Banerjee from UBS. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir.
Yeah, hi.
Could you just update on the new product portfolio, as in how they are doing?
We have several new products which have been launched over the last couple of years. Some of them which we have shared with you earlier. There are products like Fevicol Deetex, Fevicol Marine, or a recent launch which we have launched during IPL, a product called Fevicol Ezee Spray, which is an aerosol-based adhesive, are doing fairly well. Even within our construction and paint chemicals, we are doing some trial launch of a couple of products which are giving us encouraging results. In our larger categories, all the launches that we have had over the last few years, be it Deetex, be it Hi-per or Ezee Spray, are doing fairly well.
Sir, just to quantify, could you tell us all, what percentage of your revenues have been making up, say, the new launches in the last two years?
We would not like to quantify. We would not like to give out, because that indicates sale of individual brands, so we would prefer not to do that.
Okay. All right. Thanks.
Bye.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Avi Mehta for closing comments.
Thank you everyone for taking time for this call. I would now like to hand over to [Manshin] for their closing comments.
Thanks everyone for coming on the call.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of IIFL Capital Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.