Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Sterling and Wilson Renewable Energy Limited Q4 FY 2024 Earnings Conference Call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sandeep Thomas Mathew, Head Investor Relations, for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yeah, good morning, everyone, and welcome to our Q4 FY 2024 Earnings Call. Along with me today, I have Mr. Amit Jain, our Global CEO, and Mr. Bahadur Dastoor, our CFO, and SGA, our IR advisors. We will start the call with the key operational highlights for the year, and quarter and outlook by Mr. Amit, followed by the financial highlights by Mr. Bahadur, post which we'll open up for Q&A. Thank you, and over to you, Amit.
Thanks, Sandeep, and a warm welcome to all the participants on this call. I would like to give a quick update on our business operations and outlook on the solar industry. Beginning with our order book, we have been able to build on the order booking momentum in FY 2024 and closed the year at approximately INR 6,023 crores of order inflows, totaling approximately 3.3 GW. New order inflows have jumped 37% in fiscal compared to a year ago, when we booked orders of INR 4,387 crores. Our domestic order inflow continues to remain a key contributor, and it has grown approximately 10% to INR 4,884 crore rupees, compared to INR 4,387 crore rupees last year.
We won two international [audio distortion] orders in FY 2024 from Spain and Italy respectively, and these mark our first international orders after a gap of nearly three years. These international orders are in line with our revised business matrices, and we remain de-risked from the module price exposure in these projects. Looking at Q4 in isolation, we have received two orders worth INR 488 crore, including being declared L1 for a floating solar project in Jharkhand. This is our second floating solar project we have won this year, and the scope of work includes module and EPC work. Our second project win in Q4 was from Enfinity in Italy for a EUR 20 million project. Now this project is of 45 MW. The scope of work include design, engineering, supply, excluding the PV module and transformer, construction, erection, testing, and commissioning.
While we had anticipated a strong Q4 for new order wins, in line with our nine-month performance last quarter, a few large domestic projects have got delayed, pushing them into FY 2025 pipeline. So we are expecting orders from our repeat customers and some of the PSUs, which have now got pushed into April. Our unexecuted order book stands at INR 8,084 crore, with approximately 85% constituting domestic orders. Our OOB continues to grow rapidly, and coupled with a strong balance sheet, we are expecting to be able to capture a large share of the domestic solar EPC market. In terms of the outlook, our active order pipeline, which comprises projects with high visibility of being bid out in FY 2025, looks pretty robust, and we look to maintain a strong win ratio in the projects that we bid.
We are actively pursuing projects totaling 25 GW in India and 5 GW in other international geographies. The Nigeria MOU was announced in September 2022, and we continue to work with various stakeholders in finalizing the EPC agreement for the project. Given the size and the complex, complexity of the project, it has taken longer than expected, but considerable progress has been made in last few weeks, and we remain confident of finalizing the same in near future. The spillover of orders from Q4 FY 2024 and the bid pipeline for FY 2025 gives us a lot of confidence that the order booking for FY 2025 will be higher than what we have achieved in FY 2024. With the expected addition of orders from RIL and Nigeria in FY 2025, we expect the order booking in the year to be very exciting.
As stated in earlier calls, we reiterate that lumpiness in order inflow is to be expected with EPC company like ours, and timelines for achieving project closure could vary, depending on a host of factors, including finalization of contractual terms, financial closures, et cetera. Our O&M portfolio outlook continues to improve, and we have seen our portfolio grow to 7.6 GW as of March 2024. The benefits of a large portfolio is expected to be improved in the coming quarters. Our EPC pipeline will continue to see the large portfolio O&M projects over the next 12-18 months. Moving to the industry outlook, India continues to remain a very vibrant market, and there are multiple large solar EPC projects beginning to take off, with issues around land, transmission, et cetera, getting addressed by the state and central government.
Gujarat and Rajasthan continue to be in the forefront in terms of new large solar projects, and we have a strong established base, which we hope to leverage on. Module prices continue to remain very low globally, and the time remains right for more projects to come on stream, aided by lower LCOEs, which should translate into more work for the EPC players like us. With a strong balance sheet that has been achieved this year, we remain well positioned to tap the strong industry growth in both domestic and international markets. With this, I will ask Bahadur to take you through the consolidated financial highlights. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Amit. Despite the challenges we faced in FY 2024, happy to find
Sorry to interrupt, sir. Sir, your audio is not very clear, sir.
Am I clear now?
No, sir. One moment, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, please stay connected while we reconnect the management line. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the management line reconnected, so you can go ahead.
Okay, I trust I'm better audible now. Despite the challenges we faced in FY 2024, we are happy to finally move back into profitability, which was achieved in Q4 FY 2024. We closed FY 2024 with a top line of INR 3,034 crores, which was 51% higher than the previous year. Gross margins came in at 10.3%, aided by our domestic EPC business, which has been the key driver of performance in FY 2024. With our sustained efforts on reducing overheads, we have rationalized overheads to INR 333 crores this fiscal, and we were able to navigate back into positive EBITDA territory in FY 2024, closing the year at INR 54 crores. High interest expense in the first nine months affected our bottom line, and we closed the year with a loss of INR 210.7 crores.
Our Q4 results have begun to reflect the execution pace pickup of our unexecuted order book, which, as of today, stands at INR 8,084 crore and is almost 65% higher than last year. With liquidity constraints easing post the QIP and our UOB largely comprising new projects with good margin profiles, we hope to maintain our profitability and growth going forward. In terms of Q4 performance, revenue from operations for the quarter ended March was INR 1,178 crore, aided by a pickup in domestic EPC execution, and our gross margin came in at 10.5%. Our Q4 EBITDA came in at INR 59 crore and EBITDA margin of 5%, which is beginning to more reflect our steady state margin profile.
While our PBT was INR 33.7 crore, our Q4 PAT was lower at INR 1.4 crore due to a non-cash deferred tax charge in our books of almost INR 32 crores, due to the unabsorbed losses now being absorbed in the standalone, which had a profitability of over INR 120 crores. Segment-wise, domestic EPC continues to operate at approximately 10.3% gross margin, while international EPC margin was 9.8% in Q4. O&M margins during the quarter was 15%. Coming to the balance sheet. Fixing our balance sheet in FY 2024 has been a key achievement for us. Our net debt as of March 2024 was INR 116 crore, compared to nearly INR 2,000 crore net debt in the previous fiscal.
We do not have any debt repayments till Q3 FY25, which have not been taken care of by placing fixed deposits, and liquidity situation continues to improve. With this, we can now open the floor to questions and answers.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Rahul Jain from JM Financial PMS. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity, as well as congratulations-
Sorry to interrupt, sir. May I request you to use your handset, sir? Your audio is not very clear.
Is it better now?
Yes-
Hello?
You can go ahead, sir.
Yeah, sir. So, sir, congratulations on the profitability in Q4. My first question is on the bid pipeline. So the bid pipeline has declined from 40 GW last quarter to 30 GW currently. What has been the reason for this decline, whether the orders has been tendered out or is it the actual reduction?
...No, n o actually the bid pipeline has not reduced, but we are focusing on, these are the focus markets where we will be concentrating on. That has been indicated as a bid line for the company. So it is a 30 GW, which we anticipate will definitely be floated out without any delay in this particular year, and we'll be pitching for it. So solar market is growing internationally, and there is no question of reduction of the bid pipeline.
Sure, sir. So my second question is, so now, with the things in the right place, what is your outlook on the international orders? I mean, which countries or region can see ordering in next two years, and how are we placed in these locations?
So right now, our intense focus is on Middle East, Africa, and European markets. These markets are growing strongly, and we are going to focus on these particular three markets in coming two years.
Sure, sir. On the Nigeria order, I mean, what is the... When I see the Nigerian currency, naira, has depreciated significantly since the time we have signed the MOU, is this the reason why we are facing delays in closing the negotiations of design and EPC and finalization of orders? Or is it just there are several moving parts, as you said, on the finalization?
Yeah. No, actually, that is, the movement in naira is not the reason, because our contract was always pegged in dollars. So it is a USD contract, and nothing has to do with the movement of naira, and it has no impact on us. So there has been some other bureaucratic delay, as I indicated in last call, also because of the NDPHC got merged with Ministry of Power and some of the other issues which we were sorting out with them. So which all we have, I think we have finalized the contract negotiation with NDPHC, so there is no issues on that part. And in last, few weeks, things have moved considerably, and we are very, very confident to finalize, the Nigeria order, very, very soon.
So can we expect, expect it by Q2 itself?
I would not like to give you a date, but we are expecting it to conclude very soon.
Sure. Sure, sir. Sir, my last question will be, what are you guiding for in FY 2024, in terms of order inflow? And, will you stick to the guidance of 10%-11% gross margin and fixed cost of around INR 250 crore-INR 300 crore for the year? Also, now onwards, what will be the interest cost?
So I think part of the question will be answered by Bahadur, and part I will address. So I, I think, Bahadur, you can start, and then I will pitch in.
See, as far as the interest cost is concerned, right now we are having approximately INR 400 crores of term debt, of which 25 crores has already been paid, another 50 crores has been earmarked by fixed deposits. On the remaining 328 crores, the interest costs would range between INR 30 crore-INR 35 crore on an annualized basis, unless out of free cash flows, we end up repaying it. This would be more or less the range of interest for the year.
Sure. Sure, sir. And now the guidance on order inflow, gross margin, and fixed cost as well.
No, order, as far as the gross margins are concerned, we'll be maintaining our historic gross margin, which we have been maintaining in our international and domestic projects. And as far as the order book is concerned, we are expecting close to an order book of INR 8,000 crore this year in FY 2025, which we expect to close.
Order inflow you meant, right?
Yeah, order inflow.
Okay. Thanks a lot, sir. That's it from my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shiwani from Monarch Networth Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. My first question is on the order book of FY 2024. What , what percentage is the legacy order, and what is the margin profile for those orders?
Can you be a bit louder? I missed your part of your question. Can you repeat again?
I wanted to. Yeah, sure. I wanted to ask that, the order book that we have of close to INR 8,000 crore, what is the margin profile for those orders?
Our margin profile would be consistent to the margins that we have declared. And as far as your question in terms of legacy orders, I trust you mean the old orders which were-
Right.
Last meeting. They've all been provided for, Shiwani. So, over there, the total quantum would be in the region of INR 70 crore-INR 80 crore, in this INR 8,100 crores.
Sure. And, my second question is on the other financial assets, other current financial assets and other current assets, what is, what amount is the indemnity amount that comprised in such numbers?
The total indemnity receivables, which are there in various places, which are in trade receivables, other financial assets, and other current assets, are approximately INR 900 crores.
Sure. Okay, thank you. I'll be on the line for the follow-on question.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Kunal Shah from DAM Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Congratulations on good set of numbers.
So may I request you to use your handset, please? You're not very audible, sir.
Sure.
... The line from Mr. Kunal Shah has dropped. Maybe move to the next participant. The next question is from the line of Deepak Purswani from Svan Investments. Please go ahead.
Good morning, sir. Congratulations on the good set of number. So, just wanted to understand, in terms of the order inflow, you mentioned, this year we are looking of INR 8,000 crore. And also we mentioned about we are very excited about our order inflow, from the Reliance side as well. So just wanted to understand if you can throw some light in terms of contribution from the Reliance Industries. And also, this INR 8,000 crore also includes some contribution from the Reliance also.
No. So actually, this INR 8,000 crore which we are guiding is excluding Reliance and Nigeria order book. So this is pure play, which we are getting from other third parties by building in domestic and international market. So eight thousand crore doesn't include, Reliance and Nigeria at all.
Okay. And if you can also give us some understanding in terms of how should we look into the order inflow from Reliance in this year?
Pardon? Can you repeat the question, again? Your voice is breaking.
If you can throw some, if you can also give some understanding in terms of the order inflow contribution we are looking from the Reliance in this year, how should we look into it for the current year? So-
So as we have repeatedly stated on our, like, previous investor calls, that discussions with Reliance in progress, and they have a huge rollout plan. But at this point of time, I would not like to guide on any numbers with respect to Reliance. We are expecting to conclude orders soon, and it is going to be a huge rollout.
Okay. Sir, and in terms of the O&M revenues, this year we, we did revenues of INR 210 crores. I mean, going ahead, how should we look into this O&M revenue trajectory, given there has been a sharp improvement in the O&M portfolio or order book?
I'm really sorry, but I'm not able to hear your voice clearly.
This is the operator, Mr. Paswani. May I request you to use your handset, sir. You're not audible, sir. Your line keeps breaking, sir.
Hello. Is it better now?
Yes, sir. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Sir, in terms of the O&M revenues, we did a revenues of INR 210 crores in this year. How should we look into this trajectory going ahead?
We are looking at close to INR 270 crores this year in O&M revenue.
Okay. And from the tax rate perspective, I think this year, we had some deferred tax expenses, tax asset. I mean, going ahead, what would be the effective tax rate we would be looking it out, or this is just a one-time exercise?
See, we had made certain provisions on unabsorbed losses a couple of years ago. Those reversed because on standalone basis, we had a profit of over INR 120 crores. This is a non-cash adjustment on reversal of carry forward losses. We do not have much carry forward losses now because we have stopped providing for it from FY 2023 and onwards. So this, as I mentioned, non-cash, it will be significantly lower, if at all, in the next year. The tax rate continues to be 25% odd, and we have carry forward losses, which should absorb a bulk of whatever will be our next year's profit on standalone basis.
Okay. Put it all together, sir, what would be the effective tax rate as a whole?
The effective tax rate for the next year?
Yeah.
I'm not in a position to give you an exact guidance, because the calculation will depend on how much of deferred tax gets charged, and that is also on a standalone basis. But suffice to say, the actual current tax outflow will not be much due to absorption of carry forward losses.
Okay. And sir, in terms of the finance charges, we mentioned we, on the debt of INR 300 crore, there would be an interest expenditure to the extent of 30%-35%. 30-35-
35 crores, yeah.
Yeah. And in terms of the BG charges and other charges, what would be the outflow we should build in?
No, BG and LC charges are already built into the project cost. Therefore, the project margins that we have guided is after that.
Okay. Thank you. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. The next question is from the line of Kunal Shah, from DAM Capital. Please go ahead, sir.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Hope I'm audible now. So my first question, you did mention that a couple of the projects were pushed back, which were from Q4 to, let's say, Q1 this year now. Could you sort of quantify what would be the quantum of those, and are those just domestic or international projects both?
So projects are domestic, and they're in excess of 3 GW. What the projects we are talking about, which got pushed out. That's because they are with our repeat customers as well as some PSU projects, which we are hoping to conclude in March, but we're now expecting either the end of April or first half of May, we should be moving ahead with those orders.
You mentioned 3 GW, right?
Yeah, yeah. There's a pretty, pretty big pipeline there, which got pushed out.
Okay.
-which we hope to go, get concluded very soon.
...Okay, and this 3 GW again would be broadly what BOS end-to-end, sort of how to read it, like, you know, or a mix of both?
Most of the orders which we are pursuing in domestic orders are like BOS.
Understood. Understood. And, you know, if you could just give some guidance with respect to the closing order book of this INR 8,000-odd crores, you know, broadly, how much would be the revenue conversion in FY 2025 from the same?
Yeah. So I would give you the revenue guideline in two parts. The first part is GOV, which is INR 8,000 crore. So we expect to convert out of this INR 6,000 crore-INR 7,000 crore of revenue out of the unexecuted order book, and we expect to, like, we have given guidance of INR 8,000 crore, excluding Reliance and Nigeria, from which we'll be converting 25%-30% into the revenue. So revenue breakup will be in two parts, one is unexecuted order book, and then is the book and build part.
Understood. This is very helpful. And also, in terms of this commodity cost going up, you know, in recent times, so one, is there any impact on the current ongoing orders? And two, will there be recalibration in terms of future bids, you know, considering those?
So, whenever we bid, we take current prices into account. So all of our bids, when we bid out, we are based on the current prices, and as soon as we receive the orders, the orders are placed immediately. So when we book, so there is no impact, we take current market, prevailing market prices into account, and as soon as we receive the order. So we are totally protected from those, metal or other price fluctuations in the market, and I don't think it is going to impact us at all going forward, or there will be any major recalibration of the prices.
Understood. Understood. And one last one from me, sir. You had in the last call, you had mentioned that there were some challenges in terms of the ability to tap non-fund based limits, you know, during the early part of the year, given the balance sheet positioning, which obviously has improved now. But because of those constraints, have we caused, I mean like, is there any sort of timeline delay to commission the order backlog, which was in the starting FY 2024, or everything seems to be on time?
So I will start off, and then Amit can join as far as the commissioning aspect is concerned. We had expected a rating upgrade to happen during the quarter. Unfortunately, that has taken longer than expected. The rating upgrade is expected shortly, which will be a significant improvement over the previous one, is what we believe. However, that has taken the entire quarter. Post which, there will be discussions with banks for limit upgrades, and we are quite positive on that front. But this entire rating remaining in D for the quarter has caused constraints in terms of revenue, which could have been accomplished in Q4. As far as how it has affected the progress of projects, I'll just let Mr. Jain comment on that.
Yeah. So as far as the project revenues, we were expecting to realize more revenues in Q4, and which got impacted, but we expect that moving forward, that will be sorted out.
Understood. Understood. And, sir, just one last one, if I can just push in. You know, you've spoken of this O&M business particularly, but you know, over the last four or five years, whatever be the conditions, you know, the portfolio has been between this 6.5-7.5 sort of GW, right? I mean, the O&M portfolio. So going ahead, you know, how do we sort of see this scaling up, in that sense? And also, do we start targeting the wind O&M bit as well, from here on?
Yeah. So I will answer both the parts. So as you see, our domestic order book is growing. So as far as the domestic order book is swelling, and major contribution is coming from big PSU bids, which contains the provision for three years of compulsory O&M part. So when our Khavda portfolio, which is 4 GW, when it comes into action, it will straightaway contribute huge chunk to our O&M portfolio. So you will see a significant growth in O&M portfolios, because year-on-year, we'll be delivering projects and adding it to this portfolio. So if you presume that every year, and it's a cycle of three years, so the portfolio will be constant at least for a period of three years, and every year we are getting multiple GW into that. So this O&M portfolio is going to grow significantly.
So you will see a rapid addition to our portfolio. So the next thing, we will commission 4 GW of Khavda portfolio that will be straightaway added into our portfolio. And next, this year, we are targeting again, a huge pipeline. So year on year, this will keep getting added, and portfolio is going to grow significantly. As far as wind O&M is concerned, we are working on that part, and we are considering it very, very, very seriously, how to enter O&M wind segment. So that, we are seriously planning to enter.
Understood. Understood. This is really helpful. Thanks a lot, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Faisal Hawa, from HG Hawa and Company. Please go ahead.
So sir, in the previous cycle, have you seen any kind of you know, orders increasing due to you know, solar panel prices going down? And, does the you know, crude prices going up also have a effect on in solar panel or solar solar projects being sped up for bidding and and project execution?
... Can you repeat again, Mr. Hawa, last part of your question?
So, have you ever seen some connection between, you know, crude prices also going up and solar panels projects being sped up for bidding?
No. So actually, the first part you're saying about the module prices going down, so definitely this is a very, very positive change, and LCOEs have come down. So whatever we are seeing, that project roll out or the project closure is getting expedited. And we see the market for the numbers which we are putting in, they definitely are going to go up. So we are going to see far more project closures. As far as the crude pricing is concerned, we said this journey, the renewable journey has started, and irrespective of crude prices, it will keep moving. However, from the energy security perspective, for the geographies which are getting impacted by higher crude prices, we will see far more momentum in this direction.
So energy security, along with the green revolution or the renewable energies, both the factors put together, is going to drive the market towards the higher trajectory.
So, sir, why is our guidance for order inflows so tepid? You know, it's only, like, INR 8,000 crore. I know that it is ex Reliance and Nigeria, but it's still looking very tepid because the fact remains that we are almost the only player or one of two players who can do 1 GW project in India. So, any comments on that?
So we want to be like, frankly speaking, we have been very conservative, but whenever we are giving guidance, and that is based on INR 8,000 crore, we have guided. So whatever the current bids are there, but we are expecting to beat this number. So this is the guidance for the time being from our side.
Secondly, sir, there are now some players, you know, who are having the ambition to, you know, go above 1 GW also. So are we seeing any kind of pressure on, you know, our personnel being poached or, you know, some attrition? Because we did see some announcements during this quarter, sorry, the last quarter, on, you know, our one or two recognitions at our end, and also we are, you know, hiring some more people for the Kutch projects.
Yeah. So we have a very robust leadership pipeline, and our execution staff continues to be very, very strong. So as far as manpower and organizational stability is concerned, we don't see any threat or any pressure on that side. So we have well-placed mechanisms in place with respect to the supplementing and developing manpower to carry out the volume of work and the growth path or the growth projections we have. So there is no concerns at all on that front. We are fully geared up, and our systems are based on our projections. We keep adding and keep developing the organization accordingly. So we are pretty, pretty well placed on that particular front.
So, sir, just as a vision, you know, and I will not hold you to that on any kind of figures, but what do you see could be a potential revenue that Sterling Wilson could be having 3-4 years down the line?
We can, conservatively, again, we can expect a growth of 15%-20% on CAGR basis every year. This again, so this is the guidance we have given for the revenue as well as the order book this year. And on that basis, we can expect. But we are growing to see the market expansion significantly in coming years.
So, this is...
What Amit is alluding to is without Nigeria and Reliance, right?
Yeah. Okay. So, 15%-20% CAGR for next 3-4 years, provided we do not get any orders from Reliance and Nigeria?
Yeah, the-
Let's not put it so negatively. We're just putting a positive statement of fact here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understood. And, secondly, sir, is there any progress on, you know, this battery storage and, you know, any R&D that we are doing or we have any kind of inputs from the Reliance side on how to execute these projects?
So, no. So actually, the company already has capability to execute EPC project for battery energy storage systems. We have executed similar projects in Africa, and we were bidding for these projects in multiple geographies. And we expect this market to come up significantly in India, for which we have, which has not been factored into our projections so far. We expect this market to grow significantly, and we have in-house capabilities to address this market. So because we started working many years back on this particular BESS part, and we are technology agnostic, and we can address BESS projects, including any technology in any geography, and so we are fully geared up for that.
Sir, we will remain negative working capital for even this 15%-20% growth next 3-4 years? Or we may need more infusion of funds through equity.
Business model will remain same. Business model will remain same. We are going to be asset light and negative working capital department.
Definitely no equity additions?
Pardon? I think we missed that question.
Sir, may I request you to rejoin the queue for follow-up questions, please?
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Thank you, sir.
Thank you, sir. The next question. Before we take the next question, a reminder to all participants, in the interest of time and fairness to all participants, may we request you to limit your questions to one or two per participant. Should you have a follow-up question, we would request you to rejoin the queue. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Puneet from HSBC. Please go ahead.
... Yeah, thank you so much, [audio distortion]. I joined a bit late. Is there any indication from Reliance as to when the work will start flowing to you? And, and will you be the sole, you know, executioner for those projects?
So I, I think I have already answered that question in the beginning of the call.
Yeah, sorry.
Things are going on with Reliance, and we remain the front-runner for the execution of the portfolio. If not... And we expect a significant portion of the complete rollout to be done by Sterling and Wilson.
And you'll put in.
EPC and work should start soon.
Okay. Would you also be executing wind for them?
Uh, pardon?
Would you also be executing wind projects for them?
Yeah, so all the options are under discussion, and as and when we finalize, we'll intimate you around that.
Okay, understood. My second question is if you can talk about, you know, availability of modules, given that ALMM is now in place. Is there any risk to execution or, or pace of execution, given that there could potentially be shortage of capacity on the module side? Or are you well-placed enough this time?
Because a significant capacity addition is happening in India, and I don't see any challenge on that particular front with respect to EPC rollouts. Because whatever orders in hand, all the developers have secured modules, even PSUs have secured modules. So I don't have any concern or any. I don't see any impact coming on our execution portfolio.
Understood. That's very helpful. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nikhil Abhyankar from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. I got dropped from the call earlier. I'm not sure that you've answered this question. So sir, what portion of our current 30 GW of pipeline is hybrid projects?
Is what? Which project?
Hybrid projects.
Hybrid projects.
Yeah.
So hybrid projects, right now, I will not put a number to that, but we'll see that, that particular portfolio growing in coming years.
So right now there is no number? It is not included in the pipeline?
Right now, it's part of the pipeline, but I would say, like, I would not like to put a number because-
Okay.
developers are also taking call on various factors, how much wind, how much battery.
Right.
Based on the various configuration, that number keeps changing.
Okay.
So that's why we have not put a number to that.
Sure. And also, sir, we are so are we also looking to get into pure wind EPC? Because some of the OEMs are sticking to more of a equipment supply approach only. So is there an opportunity which you are seeing and which we can look at?
So we will do wind without land. And that, of course, like, if the OEM will be supplying the equipment, but we will not be taking any responsibility for the land, which is rare. So we'll be going only and only where the land risk is not in our portfolio.
Okay, the land is not in. So, will we be bidding in the PSU bids, something like NTPC or somewhere?
So all, all the PSU bids we take on from case-to-case basis, so how is our competitiveness and how well we are placed, and whether all the risk matrices are getting complied to, and then accordingly we decide for every bid. So it's, this is decided on bid-to-bid.
Okay. And sir, just a clarity on the revenue guidance that you gave earlier. So you mentioned that out of the INR 8,000 crore order book that you have, around INR 60 crore-INR 70 crore will get executed this year. Am I right?
No, no, not I NR 60 crore-INR 70 crore , INR 6,000-INR 7,000 crore from the unexecuted order book will be executed this year. We are expecting to book INR 8,000 crore of order this year, out of which 20%-30%, 25%-30% will be converted into revenue. And all the numbers are excluding Reliance and Nigeria.
Okay. So without Reliance and Nigeria, around INR 90 billion-INR 95 billion of revenue guidance for next year?
Yeah. So, but I will, I'm not putting a hard number to it, but I am within the broad range.
Sure, sir. No problem. Thanks again and all the best.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your questions to one or two per participant. Should you have a follow-up question, we would request you to rejoin the queue. The next question is from the line of Aejas Lakhani from Unifi Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, team. Thanks for the opportunity, and congratulations. Could you specifically speak about the receivables, you know, the surety bonds that had got enforced by the contractor, the invocation of those bank guarantees of about INR 400 crore, the litigations that were going on, and could you specifically state where we are in that journey?
All of those items are presently lying as current assets. The management has taken legal views or expert views to determine whether there is any provision required, and the decision was there is presently no provision that is required against each of those matters.
Okay, but could you tell me what is the update in the courts? Because you're fighting this battle in the courts. Has there been a hearing? When is it likely? When can we expect the fructification of this, or what timelines?
Amit, would you like to take this question since you're handling this front here?
Yeah. So as far as the timelines are concerned, so we are expecting, because, you know, the legal process is always a lengthy process, so some of the cases are coming up for hearing in second and third quarter, and some are, some are coming in the Q4. So, that's how it is panning out. But there are always development and there can be some delays with respect to that. But as Bahadur alluded to earlier, we have consulted or hired law firms, the most reputed law firms, international law firms, for all our cases. We have taken opinion of legal and technical expert, and we are very, I think, favorably placed in all those litigations.
Okay. The next question is the, you know, earlier participant had asked about, the need for maybe another fundraise in the next year. Your thoughts on that? And if you could just provide some clarity that when Nigeria comes through, because you stated that you're confident, how should we understand, you know, the order booking in that, the conversion to revenue, the timelines associated, the cost, the scope of work? If you could just give some more, understanding of that.
As far as the fundraise is concerned, we do not see any need for any fundraise. Working capital is negative, operations are profitable, there is cash flow from operations, if you see the, cash flow that we have presented. So we do not see any need for a fundraise. As far as Nigeria, I think Mr. Amit has already answered the question. But in case, Amit, you want to just follow up anything relevant.
No, no, so as Bahadur has alluded, we have already answered the question, that we are working very closely with Nigerian authorities. The very positive developments have taken place in last few weeks, and we are expecting it to conclude it very soon.
Okay, could you quantify that over what period? Because the timelines have moved. So over what period will we execute this? Will it be still, you know, spread out over two years? You know, what will be the quantum that we may get in the first year or second year? Could you give some more color on that?
We will give color once the order is finalized. As of right now, it was a two-year project. It continues to remain so.
Okay, thanks, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Subash from Value Investments. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity, and also congratulations on those numbers. So my first question is about when you mentioned that there would be an upgrade, right, on, on your rating upgrade. So after the rating-
May I request you to use your handset, sir? There's slight disturbance from your line.
Okay, one second. Are you able to hear me now?
Yes, sir. Please go ahead.
Okay. So you mentioned about the ratings upgrade happening soon, right? So I wanted to know, after the ratings upgrade, I think there will be no need to pledge the shares, like the promoter shares, because in the last quarter, to get some loans from the banks for the projects, I think there was some pledge.
Firstly, that is incorrect. There are no shares of the promoters that have been pledged to take any loans from the banks in the last quarter pertaining to this company. In fact-
Oh.
In the last quarter, after the QIP, we have gone and reduced debt. The rating upgrade is expected shortly, and as soon as it is there, we will make the announcement to the stock exchanges.
Okay, fine. Also, on the segmental revenue, I see you have EPC business and also the O&M, the operation and maintenance. So do you have any plans to build your IPP portfolio, like individual power producer?
I will start off. We are not developers.
Okay.
So we are essentially in the space of EPC, whether it is EPC for solar, EPC for a hybrid project, and O&M. We have no plans to be an IPP.
Got it. Thank you so much. And also my last question would be on the conversion of revenue on your order book. So you mentioned that 25%-30% of the INR 8,000 crore will be converted to revenue.
Mm-hmm.
So do you mean that is only for FY 25? I could not understand clearly. Could you please explain what is the conversion of revenue?
So let me correct you on, on that one. On the revenue conversion part, so there are two parts I will state again. One is the unexecuted order book value, which is, like, INR 8,000 crore is our UOB. Out of that, INR 6,000-INR 7,000 crore will be converted into revenue. The fresh order inflows, which we are expecting to the tune of INR 8,000 crore, out of that, we expect 25%-30% will be converted to revenue. So revenue conversion will be of these two parts. One is the order book, which is in hand, and what will be booked during that year. So these two put together will constitute the revenue, and this is excluding Reliance and IP.
Okay. Thank you. And if I could push just one more question. So about your margins, I see that your EBITDA margin is 5%, and the net margin is a little bit lower. So compared to the smaller EPC players who show net margins of over 10%, like, do you have plans to improve the margin? I clearly understand this is a very good turnaround, considering the losses that you have posted previously, but I would like to understand about the future margins.
So as I stated, we, we will continue to maintain our historic margins, and with the economies of scale and portfolio going up, definitely...t here will be improvement on the margins. But I will not like to comment on other EPC players, but we have in this market for long, and we have consistently delivered margins, which will continue to do so in the domestic market segment.
Okay, thank you, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Darshil Pandya from Finterest Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello. Hi, sir, am I audible?
Yes, sir, please go ahead.
Yeah. Sir, what have, have you paid any debt in this quarter?
We have paid on it. You're talking of debt repayment?
Yeah.
Yeah, so whatever was the debt repayment which was scheduled, which was a commercial paper of INR 100 crores and a term debt of INR 25 crores, has been paid on time.
You mean to INR 125 crore of debt has been paid?
Yes.
Okay.
But that was anyway earmarked with fixed deposits, so you'll not see a change in the net debt situation.
Okay. And, sir, any guidance for, you know, overheads for this year? Or what will be the overheads for this year, this year?
No. We do not. We will keep it consistent. We don't want to give any kind of guidance at this stage, on the overheads.
Mm-hmm. Okay, no worries. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rahil Shah from Crown Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello. Hi, I'm audible?
Yes, sir, please go ahead.
Yes, yes. Hi, sir. Just one question on the EBITDA margins, sir. What can we expect, going forward for FY 2025?
Sir, may I request you to speak up, sir? Your audio is very low.
Just a moment. Hello, is it better?
Yes, sir, please go ahead.
Yes. Hi, just one question on the EBITDA margins sir. Now, what can one expect going ahead for FY 2025? And it would be really helpful if you could, you know, explain the improvement quarter-on-quarter as well, how does company see the margins shape up?
So as we have given a revenue guidance and a gross margin guidance, we are not presently in a position to give an EBITDA guidance, because we wouldn't want to do so. You can fairly well calculate it. How it flows quarter on quarter will depend on the pace of execution of various projects across every quarter.
Okay. Sir, please, can you repeat the gross margin guidance? I joined the call late. Thank you very much.
Yeah, the gross margin we said would be consistent with the gross margins which we have reported.
For the entire year?
Year and quarter are fairly consistent.
Okay. Okay, okay. All right, thank you, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Danesh Mistry from Investor First Advisors. Please go ahead.
Hi, congratulations for a good set of results. I just had one question, was regarding working capital. If you were to see the consolidated working capital, there's been a great improvement. Just want to understand, there's been an increase in the trade payables a bit versus last year. So is this something that we can expect as on an ongoing basis, or is it just, you know, project end date kind of balance sheet year kind of number? That's it from my end. Thank you.
Sure. Thank you. You will see that a lot of the revenues have happened in this quarter, and especially in the month of March, leading to an increase in trade payables. Similarly, there is an increase in trade receivables plus unbilled, which lies in my other financial assets. If you see the two of them in combination, it is consistent with what is there even in the previous year. So the reason for whilst one is shown on the face and the other is shown in a schedule in the receivable side, the trade payable shows up straight on the face, which is why it looks inconsistent, but which is not the case.
Okay. All right. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Parth Agarwal from Bastion Research. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you for the opportunity, and, congratulations on good set of numbers. My one question is on, so what has been your historical, order book win ratio, if you can highlight that part?
So, as you see, historic win ratio in the domestic market, what we have seen in the trend in last few quarters, is market share is 30%, and our PSU strike rate is close to 50%. So we have been very, very successful in wherever the big PSU tenders we have participated, more than 50%, and overall markets, our addressable market share is 30%.
So you know, when you are bidding for 30 GW of projects, and assuming INR 1.5 crores per MW, it comes to around a size of INR 60,000 crores of order books that you're bidding for. So don't you think, probably the order book win ratio should be close to, rather than INR 8,000 crores, should be closer to INR 10,000-INR 12,000 crores?
Could you repeat your question again?
So if you are bidding for 30 GW of projects this year, right? And, with a win ratio of close to 30%-
Sir, your audio is not clear. May I request you to speak up, sir?
Is it better now?
Yes, sir, please go ahead.
Okay. I'm saying that with the 30 GW of order book bid that you're going to do this year in FY 2025, and with 30% success ratio or win ratio that you have, so don't you think your probably your INR 8,000 crore of order interest should be more than INR 12,000-INR 15,000 crore?
You see, the majority of the domestic market is BOS-
Okay.
in which, like, it is INR 1 crore per MW, approximately with fixed tilt and INR 1.3 crores per MW with tracker. So this is the dominant market with some tenders coming out with modules. So with respect to that, we have estimated the number and given out to you, which number can, like, significantly improve as we go along the year. But we kept the guidance to INR 8,000 crore at this point of time.
Okay, thank you. That's helpful. Just last question from my side. So pre, you know, pre-COVID, your gross margins used to be 14%-15% level, and as you've guided that, you are expecting around 10%-11%, which you currently have clocked this quarter and this year. So any reason why you're expecting your gross margins to be lower than what historically it has been?
Our gross margins have always been historically in the 10%-11% range. 14% has been when we have gone opportunistically into certain geographies where we have made high margins. However, if you go consistently year from year, it has always been in the range of 10%-11%, and not 14%.
Okay. Thank you. That's all from my side, and best of luck for the future quarters.
Before the next question comes up, since this is being asked repeatedly, I thought I'll just reiterate the whole thing. We do not have any equity fund plan for future. And just again, to put out the revenue expectation, out of the UOB of INR 8,000 crore, we expect to close INR 6,000 crore-INR 7,000 crore. And out of the new order inflow of INR 8,000 crore, coincidentally, both are 8,000, the second 8,000 is without Reliance and without Nigeria. We expect to close between 25%-30% of that. Hence, you can say out of the UOB and book and bill, the revenue right now that we are expecting is between INR 8,000-INR 9,000 crore, other than Reliance, other than Nigeria. I just thought I will summarize this, because this is being asked repeatedly. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in the interest of time and fairness to all participants, please limit your questions to one or two per participant. Should you have a follow-up question, we would request you to rejoin the queue. Thank you. Our next question is from the line of [audio distortion] from Niveshaay Investment Advisory. Please go ahead.
Hello, am I audible?
Yes, sir, please go ahead.
So I had this question on the EBITDA margin side. So what is the EBITDA margins that were earned in this quarter in the international markets?
We don't give EBITDA by region. The overall EBITDA is about INR 54 crore, which is what has been earned for the year, and which is fairly similar to what we have got in the quarter as well.
Correct, sir. I also wanted to understand on the fixed cost. So, let's say our revenue increases by a certain percentage, what are we expecting that number to be in terms of employee costs or other expenses? Can there be a multiplier to it?
Our employee costs and other costs are not related to the increase in revenue. And we are not expecting the overheads to go up significantly from what has already been given for the current financial year.
Correct, sir. I also had this doubt related to the ALMM. There were problems of unavailability of good quality modules when ALMM was initially introduced, and that is why it was deferred. Do we expect to face any similar problems going ahead?
Could you repeat again, please?
When the ALMM was introduced, initially, there were some issues related to quality of the ALMM modules. Are we expecting any similar kind of situations in future?
No, I don't expect any such question. I already answered this question. So with respect to ALMM, because all the big industrial houses and fairly reputed manufacturers are coming into market, and their modules are being produced with latest technology, so I don't have any concern on availability or quality of the modules, and it will not impact project execution going forward. So there are no concerns on that front at all.
Correct, sir. Also, sir-
Sorry to interrupt, [audio distortion] . May we request that you return to the question queue for follow-up questions, as there are several participants waiting for their turn. Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Aryan Mehta from Mehta Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Congratulations on the great quarter. Looking at the balance sheet, the other current liabilities have nearly doubled year-over-year. What is the reason for this? Thank you.
Mr. Mehta, I'll just answer your question shortly. If you have any other question, you can ask in the interim.
No, no more questions.
So I'll take the next question, and I will give you an answer shortly.
This is the only question I have.
Okay, sir. Mr. Mehta, the management will answer your question. We move to the next question. The next question is from the line of Raj Rishi from DCPL. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. There was a report which suggested that annual opportunity for solar-
May we request you to use your handset?
I'm using handset only. Hello?
Yes, so may we request you to speak a little louder, sir? Thank you.
There was a report recently that suggested that the Indian EPC solar opportunity from now till 2032 is around INR 65,000 crore per annum. Do you agree with this kind of report, this kind of opportunity?
The opportunity, it can be like, the valuations are arrived at considering various values. So what we project is the view as value for the project for this market. But I don't know on what basis this number has been calculated, but we expect market to be significant in the range of 25 GW, growing 15%-20% annually. So from that basis, we can calculate the number. So I don't know whether that EPC has been calculated on the turnkey basis or the whole project cost, so that is very difficult to comment on that particular number.
Sir, like, your assessment of your opportunity, the market addressable from your side would be what? From now till, say, next seven, eight years per annum in India.
So for this year, what we have projected, we are projecting around INR 25 crore-INR 30 crore, INR 25,000 crore-INR 30,000 crore, and going to 15%-25% CAGR, depending upon how the whole, whole system, ecosystem is panning out.
This is the Indian opportunity for you?
This is the Indian opportunity we are talking.
Which includes everything, Reliance and everything.
No, no, that's excluding Reliance and, like, and, but the—so Reliance, whatever numbers we are talking about here, whether our own projections or the big pipeline, is excluding Reliance.
Thank you. May we request you to rejoin the question queue for follow-up questions, Mr. Rishi? Thank you.
I will just answer Mr. Mehta's previous question. The increase in other current liabilities is essentially because of advances received for projects, to the tune of almost INR 900 crore.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ashish Soni from Family Office. Please go ahead.
Sir, what are the few challenges you foresee in the execution in next couple of years?
Come again, could you repeat your question?
Challenges, what do you see in terms of execution? Because everything I see is looking great in terms of tailwinds and everything, but what, according to you, are the challenges you might face during executions?
Execution challenge, like what we had foreseen is that the talent market is going to be little bit on talent, so which we had already started addressing. So with respect to even the field workers as well as our staff, the training initiatives which need to be taken, so we are carrying out the technical development of our people and the project execution people. So that part is already happening, but I don't see with respect to any other thing. We are fully geared up to handle the pipeline, which is growing, and I don't see any significant challenge on that particular part.
And one more question, regarding geographies, so international geographies. Any reason you're not focusing on U.S.?
U.S. and Australia, basically, what we are finding that these markets where we are strong and the portfolio has grown significantly. So we have chosen to address domestic market in a big way and markets in Middle East, Africa and Europe, where we can have far better contract and much better margins. So that we have decided for the time being in the short term to focus on these markets.
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. With that, we conclude today's conference call. On behalf of Sterling and Wilson Renewable Energy Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.