Earnings Call: H1 2021

May 26, 2021

Good day, and welcome to the GenTREC Half Year 'twenty one Results Conference Call. Today's conference is being recorded. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Gary Miles, GenTREC's Chief Executive Officer. Please go ahead, sir. Thank you for the introduction, and welcome all. I'd like to just quickly point everyone to the disclaimer, which is standard in all of our disclosures here. I'm going to jump into the presentation. So I'm probably not going to read directly from these slides. It's not really my style. I would like to say that we have good progress to turn the business around. It's underway. This is a journey. It will take time. But the results are positive and the organization, the leadership team, we are all optimistic. So and this is really the result of a lot of hard work over the last 6 months, passion from the teams. I appreciate all the extra effort and enthusiasm that the organization has put behind it. And I think what's helped us a lot is a clear set of objectives around customer centricity and moving at pace and having passion to push this industry forward. Okay. So I'd like to highlight a few of the results during this period. First of all, sorry, let me move to the appropriate slide. So first of all, as a highlight, the business is functioning much more efficiently in an impactful way, okay? We've been able to accelerate many things and the leadership team is working well together. You'll see from the results that revenue is up. This is mostly from the way we're positioning Gentrack with our customers as a go to partner for clean tech solutions, helping solve their total cost of ownership and the regulatory needs. We have some headwinds in the business from prior year losses that it will continue to flush through the system and some solars, supplier of last resorts that took place in prior years as well as in this year. I want to reiterate that we believe that the best technology wins. We are a technology first company. We are committed to have the best solution in this space and we are accelerating our investment around the technology. This session is going to focus on the last 6 months' historicals. We have called for a strategy session on June 16, where we will share with the community our 3 year plans. We're excited about it. We believe in it, and we are looking forward to hopefully seeing you there. I will focus on 4 main areas. 1st and foremost, the financials, but then we'll look at the utility business momentum, our delivery organization, our technology focus and the status of our airports business. So let me jump into the results. So revenue is up. We recorded $51,000,000 in the period, of which $40,000,000 was ARR, up slightly from H20. EBITDA was at $7,000,000 NPAT will follow at a minus $1,100,000 and net cash flow continues to improve in a material way compared to where we were not too long ago. So we are positive about these results. I'm going to leave the details of these to James who will follow after I've given more of a business update. On the 4 topics that I wanted to share with you and do a little more discovery. So first of all, we've strengthened our client facing organization. I believe that we need to lead from the front. We have customer service managers that bring technology solutions to our customers and we have client business executives that understand the way our clients operate their strategy and their needs. This 2 in a box approach between delivery and the business, the revenue of the business is paying dividends. So we've strengthened this organization, which has resulted in the following. First of all, from a sales perspective, we have some new wins in the period. We're pleased to announce a gas supplier, CNG in the U. K. Has selected GenTrak to move them into the future era. We've also won a water supplier that we will name shortly in the U. K, which we're very excited about, which are strong water position in really all of our markets. But this new one in the U. K. Helps solidify our leadership position there. At the same time, we would like to make clear that we have not been selected to move forward with the Genesis business in New Zealand. This represents approximately 1% of our revenues. We expect the relationship to continue for at least 2 plus years. This was a process that was kicked off in the prior period and we would like to make it clear. We also had 2 customer supplier of last resorts go into play during the period, Tonic and Green Networks. In general, what's driving the revenue growth in addition to the new wins is we are our customers are looking to us more and more to bring them new technologies and new solutions in this space. I think we've done a very good job positioning ourselves as a go to partner for that. And we foresee more work ahead in this area. One of the highlights I want to turn towards now is the delivery organization. So we've rolled out our delivery global delivery organization. This is putting us in a much healthier state with all of our customers. We are in a high performance state with the vast majority of our customers. This always has room for improvement and we will continue to improve this. But this is giving us room to sell them more and provide a higher throughput. So we are bringing through a better EBITDA on the back of this. We do see this is the beginning of a journey. We do see room for further improvements in the delivery organization. The delivery organization is strengthened by our new Indian Development Center. We've opened up the Indian Development Center in Pune. We have approximately 50 DevOps experts there today. We are starting to feel the impact as we bring them up to speed on our technologies and our customer needs. Once we have crystallized a team in India that has come up to speed and knows our technology, we'll be able to scale this significantly. We are also bringing on more experts in our core markets, the U. K, Australia and New Zealand to help with our delivery capabilities. Let me move on now. On the technology side, as I mentioned before, we are committed to our technology journey. We do believe that best technology wins. We've had in the period, we signed new agreements with AWS to do joint development for Cleantech Contino, which is a global player that helps organizations like ours move faster into an agile CICD DevOps capability Snowflake and Qlik, which work in the big data and BI and analytics space, we believe that data and analytics will provide a differentiating edge for our technologies and our customers. Some of the new innovations that we've been able to roll out, which have all been to a large extent many of which have been in the period. So we've been able to move very fast on this regard. We've started to roll out time of use pricing, pay as you go, which is a type of prepay for the utility industry, demand forecasting for our customers to be able to better forecast their usage and do the appropriate pricing and hedging to help them with their profitability, faster switching, which we've rolled out in both the U. K. And Australia, which are major regulatory programs to help the industry, and then data analytics, which I spoke about. We have started to sell these services to our customers and bring them these innovations. There is more room to go here with these products in our customer base as well as new products that we're bringing. We are ramping up our technology resources to build our cloud native capabilities. This is actually a challenge on the in the globe today. The pandemic that's pushing through India is slowing this down slightly as well as hot technology markets where we operate, particularly in Auckland and London or the U. K. On the Airports business, so with Vivo, this is an industry that is obviously facing major, major headwinds, okay? We have some continued revenue pressure from the Vivo business across the group. Despite this, we've the amount of revenue pressure that we've received is not significant. This is because we do provide an essential service to the airports industry. During this period, we were able to deliver successfully several projects. We've mentioned Perth and Mexico here. We won passenger flow management projects in 2 new locations. We actually announced Luton Airport taking our passenger flow systems today. We've delivered more than 10 migrations to our passenger flow cloud native solutions during the period. And we are confident about this industry as it turns around that will be a growth driver for the company. We are committed to make sure that Viovo remains profitable. We think during the period, we are in a position to continue to invest in the Vivo technology. So we come out stronger at the back end of this, which we'll talk more about in our 3 year strategy days in June. In general, I would like to say that I would like to repeat that the pace that we see happening in the cleantech area is accelerating. There are a lot of new initiatives that are driven by consumers and by regulators to move away from carbon into renewables and clean technologies. There are enormous pressures on the industry to be profitable. So there's a requirement for automation and help with their running their operations. All of these programs need a strong, loyal and capable partner. We do not think that it's trivial to be able to deliver multiplay, meaning B2B, B2C for energy and water and do it in a cost effective strong delivery capability to get programs through to safe harbor, new programs, whether they're smaller programs or they're major transformations. I'm confident that our delivery organization is in a capable place to do this and our technology organization is bringing the innovations that the industry needs. I would like to repeat that the results are good. There is room for further improvement. The process will take time. There is some prior period things that will continue to come through the system. But we are optimistic. We're very optimistic about the industry and we're optimistic about our potential here. And so with that, I would like to turn over to James to run through more detail on the financials. James? Thank you very much, Gary, and good morning, everyone. In the next six slides, I'm going to take you through the group profit and loss for the period, revenue analysis of our Utilities and Airports divisions, our costs, the balance sheet and cash position of the company, and I'll conclude with an update on the outlook and then hand back to Gary to wrap up. So starting on Slide 9 with the group profit and loss. Here you can see the EBITDA of $7,000,000 up 63.2% versus the prior year comparative period. While revenue has moved up only slightly, you'll see in the divisional analysis that we've had strong move up in utilities after absorbing previous year customer losses, offset by a reduction in the airport's project revenues due to the industry situation. I'll come to that in more detail shortly. But first, while we're still on this slide, you can see that operating costs are down by $2,300,000 to $44,000,000 versus the PCP or 5%, supporting the improved margin and EBITDA outcome. Again, I'll come into more detail on costs in a minute. I'd like to emphasize while on this slide that this period's results have no adjustments to EBITDA or statutory profit. There's nil capitalization of R and D costs. And as we will come on to, we have strong cash generation in the period. Overall, this is a very clean result, in line with our conservative approach. So turning to Slide 10, where you can see the revenue analysis at First for Utilities. The story here is a key part of understanding this set of results. First, note that total utilities revenue is up 6.3 percent to $42,500,000 with a strong increase in non recurring revenues, which is driven by project deliveries in Australia and the UK in the period. You can see that annual recurring revenues, which includes both committed and non contracted recurring revenues, are up 0.9% or $300,000 after absorbing approximately $2,000,000 of reductions in ARR versus the prior period due to UK customer losses. Excluding those losses, the underlying increase would be much higher, and that's driven by customer gains and underlying meter point growth within our customers. Also note that annual recurring revenues in the period represent 82.1% of total Utilities revenue, so a strong level of revenue stability in our Utilities segment. Moving now to the equivalent slide for our Vivo business on Slide 11. The key takeaways on this slide are firstly and unsurprisingly, we see a reduction in the project on non recurring revenues versus the PCP, where the projects were in delivery prior to the industry downturn. Our view is that this will come back in time, but clearly projects have been affected by COVID related impacts on the industry. Pleasingly, the annual recurring revenues have grown by 5.8 percent to $5,500,000 and are showing strong resilience reflecting the critical nature of the software we provide for our customers and that overall our costs are not a material part of our customers' cost base. The Vivo business has remained profitable in the half due to this resilience combined with our ability to manage costs. This is really good to see. Now moving on to Slide 12, where you can see an analysis of group expenditure. Headlines from this slide are that we've managed costs tightly in the period with an overall reduction of $2,300,000 or 5% versus the PCP. But you can also see that we're adding to personnel costs both compared to the PCP and the last half. The increase in personnel costs is driven by increases in management and investment in people, including in training and market based incentives to retain and incentivize people right across all levels of the business. We'll continue to add investment in human capital in the coming half, particularly in the area of research and development capability. In other areas, we continue to benefit from cost savings, and we'll be talking about this more at our Investor Day in June, particularly when we discuss our delivery strategy and use of our newly established India Center. Note also the conservative approach to R and D capitalization. This is not that we're not spending money on R and D, but we've taken a conservative approach leading to nil capitalization in the half. Our approach on this is to be transparent. That's not to say that we won't capitalize in the future, if appropriate. But as you will see in our outlook statement, we're spelling out the impact of R and D spend on our forecasts. This is all with the objective of providing a clear, transparent and understandable set of results. On that note, let's turn now to take a look at the cash flow and balance sheet position on Slide 13, which is one of the highlights of this set of results. We've had another strong period of cash flow generation in the half with the stronger EBITDA results being supplemented with positive working capital movements and an adjustment for non cash costs included in EBITDA related to staff incentives. The strong working capital result was driven by continued close attention to receivables and collections following on from project completions. We remain conservative in our approach to provisioning for such matters. Finally, turning to the outlook, Slide 14. In February, we advised that we expect that the FY 2021 EBITDA would be around $5,000,000 with revenues in line with FY 2020 at around $100,500,000 Today, we're updating that outlook as follows. FY 2021 revenues are expected to be slightly ahead of FY 2020 revenues of $100,500,000 FY 2021 EBITDA is expected to be around $10,000,000 for the year on the basis that research and development R and D costs are expensed Incremental R and D costs are expected to be at an exit rate of around $3,000,000 per quarter by the end of the financial year. And the company expects to be net cash flow positive for FY 2021, building on the $16,800,000 of net cash reported at 3rd September. And H2 'twenty one cash generation is expected to be neutral or better. And with that, I will hand back to Gary to wrap up and hand over for Q and A. Thank you very much. Thanks, James. So to wrap up, I would like to reiterate, we are having an Investor Day on June 16. We'll hope to see you there. I think we have at the Investor Day, we would like to make clear our strategy and our KPI and our metrics moving forward. We are not going to be taking analyst calls following on from today's presentations. So we'd encourage all of you to ask questions in this forum and as well you can bring them to us on the 16th June. We're also clearly happy to deal with any further clarifications separately via email of course. And just to close, I'd like to reiterate that we are committed to leading the way and taking the industry into the sustainable era. Things are picking up pace. We're confident about our improving position and optimistic about it. There is some road ahead of us to complete the turnaround. This will take time, but we are in a good place and our customers are leaning to us into us more and more. So this is for me, this is the main metric that we're focusing on as a business. I've been able to see all of the customers and the CEOs that we're working with. We have the relationship is getting stronger. And this is the fundamental that we're driving towards. So with that, let me hand over to Q and A. Thank you, We'll take our first question from the first participant. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Good morning, guys. It's Wissim Kisilani from Jarden here. Can I just ask a question on the revenue run rate, the expected run rate when you incorporate the prior year losses that still have to come out of the base and then some of the sort of additional work you've picked up, what that sort of recurring revenue run rate looks like in the Utilities business, please? Yes. Hi, good morning. Seamus, James here. I'll take that and then maybe Gary can add some comments after. Look, what you should take is exactly what we've said. We're not making any comments around FY 2022 here. So what I can comment on is solely what you can see here that our utilities revenue, you can see what we've disclosed here for the half. There was an impact. You'll be aware that we have previously experienced losses due to a number of reasons, but clearly, there has been a solar impact from previous customer losses. The impact of that and other factors has been a reduction of $2,000,000 in the half on ARR in utilities. So when you look at our utilities number, you should think that there was €2,000,000 reduction, which was more than made up by the impact of customer gains and organic growth within our customers, which more than offset that loss. Does that make sense? It does. But and so how much more of that is yet to come out, I guess, as some of those contracts are right. Yes. We're not making a comment. We're seeing we're not going to make a comment on that here. It is something that we will provide more clarity over where we expect revenues to move to over the medium term when we get to our strategy day. Okay, great. And then just maybe another question on contract renewals. Can you give any sense of sort of are there any significant contracts that are at discussion stage at the moment or up for renewal? Look, Jens, let me make a comment on that, and Gary may want to supplement. Look, I mean, obviously, we are constantly in discussions with our customers around renewals, and that's ongoing on customers at any point in time. We don't make comments, as you can understand, on specific renewals. So I can't really give you a categoric answer to that, Wissim. I don't know, Gary, if there's something you want to add to that. I can add a few things to it. Look, when we took over the business, one of the first things we wanted to get our head around was the profitability of our various customer projects. And it was important to reset some of these projects. And I think we've been for the most part successful in doing that. Those are not easy conversations to have. We've been able to do it by bringing them into a good state and then improving those contractual positions. We have a lot of customers, so we're regularly renewing contracts. I would say that the main driver behind this year's this half year results is the status that we have with our customers. It's in a much, much better place. And we've been able to renew the contracts that we've sought to really and usually in a better situation. Okay, great. And just final question from me. Just on the incremental R and D step up, you've highlighted the run the exit rate there of $3,000,000 a quarter. Is that do you expect that rate to sustain through FY 2022? Or should we expect sort of a step up on that exit rate? Hey, Waseem. Look, again, we haven't provided guidance for FY 2022. This will be I assure you that our R and D strategy will be a theme for the Investor Day. So I'm not going to comment on that for now on FY 2020. You can see that we our clear intent to ramp up that R and D spend is there. You can draw your own conclusions. I think it's a safe assumption to say that we will be from everything you've heard that we will be continuing to invest in technology. But let us share with you more detail on the 16th June, if that's okay. All right. Very good. Thanks, guys. Thank you. We take our next question from the next participant. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Hi, good morning. It's Josh from Craig's Investment Partners. Just a couple of questions for me. First one, do you have a target around what that you expect to return to profitability? Josh, James here. I mean, no, we haven't specified that. Again, we will be sharing metrics when we get to the Investor Day, which will be medium term. So we'll but I can't give you a specific date right now. We haven't provided any guidance for FY 2022 at this stage. What I think you can see here is the positive trajectory of EBITDA. We've given you some guidance for this year, for FY 2021. Clearly, growing the profitability of the business is absolutely our key focus. You can see that we're focusing on how to grow revenues, but we don't have a specific date in mind that we've shared at this stage. Okay. No, that's okay. And the second question, can you perhaps outline some of the reasons Genasys provided for, I suppose, picking another solution and how that ties in with your focus on lifting R and D over the coming quarters? Yes. Look, maybe I'll make some opening comments there and again pass to Gary. Look, I think, Josh, important to bear in mind the comment that Gary made going through the presentation that we this process was kicked off by Genesis some time ago. We are, as you're aware, going through a renewal of our strategy, a real focus on technology development. And we are pleased to see customer gains elsewhere. Unfortunately, that hasn't got us to where we want to be on Genesis. Obviously, Genesis has been an important New Zealand customer. We've got a great relationship with them. We're not currently selected. But I think that the focus we are bringing now to technology development to making sure that we're innovating and at the forefront of the segment we're in is really paying dividends in our conversations with other customers. Garrett, I don't know if you want to supplement or add anything to that. I think we they had a technology stack, which I think was last updated in 2004. We should have we let them stay on that stack for too long. I think that had some hangover effect in this process. Having said that, we have many new technologies to bring to bear. The journey that Genesis is on is a dynamic and interesting one. And we hope to be a part of it in the future. We're close to them. As James said, we have good relations. But we are focused on making sure this doesn't happen again. Thank you. We take our next question from the next participant. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Hi. This is Shazad Okai calling from Pine Tree Capital. I have a question regarding the way you're reporting recurring revenues. The presentation showed CMMR of 25.6% in utilities and 5.1% in airports for a total of 30.7. This compares to the reported support revenues in the financial statements. I think it's Note 3 of 29.8. Could you help us understand the difference of roughly $1,000,000 there? Yes. There are some differences in the classifications under IFRS between point in time and overtime revenues and how we classify between CMRR and other recurring revenues. If I'm I'll be really frank about this. I actually find the I'm a huge supporter of IFRS and Financial Standards, obviously, but we find that the disclosure is more helpful that we to supplement it with the classification we give in the investor presentation between what is contracted monthly recurring revenue, which is where we have ongoing contractual arrangements with our customers generating those recurring revenues and then the other annual recurrent other element of annual recurring revenue, which we refer to as transactional recurring revenue, which is really the support services that we provide on an ongoing basis that are non contractual, but are recurring in nature that make up the balance of what we call annual recurring revenue, what we classify as annual recurring revenue in the investor presentation. Now there is a that is that does have some small differences with the classification of the breakdown of revenues in the financial statements. So you cannot make a direct line of sight between 1 and the other. Does that make sense? Yes. Thank you very much for that. Clarification, is the non contracted recurring revenues, is all of that transactional or does it also include back to base professional services like change requests and training, etcetera? It does include change requests and the like, yes. Another way of thinking about this is that the non recurring revenues are really project related. Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I would like to turn the conference back to you, Mr. Miles. Did we have some questions from the written Q and A, Joanne? Yes, we did. Let me just run through them. There's a question from Phil Campbell at UBS, in from the guidance. In February, the guidance indicated GBP 3,000,000 of R and D per quarter in 2nd half, whereas this guidance indicates exit run rate of R and D of GBP 3,000,000 by year end. Is timing of R and D partly explained excuse me partly explained EBITA increase from GBP 5,000,000 to GBP 10,000,000? Yes. Let me take that one, and thanks, Phil, for the question. Okay. First thing to note on this is the underlying EBITDA in the half has moved up from €4,300,000 to €7,000,000 So there's a clear improvement in the underlying EBITDA. EBITDA. Secondly, we are working through our technology ramp up spend and options on how we will how we best make that investment at the moment, which is why we've indicated that we expect to get to an exit run rate of CHF 3,000,000 per quarter. Now where we exactly end up in terms of the total incremental spend on R and D in the second half will depend on some of the commercial decisions we make around how we best spend our investment dollars in R and D. And that is why we have put that as part of the reason why in the updated guidance, we've said that EBITDA will be around $10,000,000 in the for the financial year because there is an element of uncertainty on how much incremental R and D spend we will make. But look, I do want to highlight here a couple of key points. First of all, in that guidance, you can see that we're indicating cautiously that we expect sales to be a little bit higher. We're seeing an uptick there. And secondly, the point around the underlying EBITDA having increased, these are all pointers to improvements in the underlying results. But it is fair to say that the amount we spend on R and D in the second half will depend really will be one of the factors that determine where we land on the final EBITDA number for the year. But James, maybe I can fill in. I can add something. Because we oriented on a quarter for closing doesn't mean that things aren't in flight. We began the investment really in January. We're ramping it up in a smart way. You have to do this intelligently or you just burn money. We're very serious about doing this. We've been investing in people, onboarding the people and then a lot of training and technology. So that's underway, but we did orientate the guidance towards quarter 4 in terms of clarity and number. Okay. Joanne, are there some other questions? Yes. We've got quite a few. Just bear with me. Yes, lots of questions. Question again from Phil Campbell at UBS. Is the new Indian tech center a way of reducing R and D expense and improving productivity? How is the center managed on a day to day basis? Okay. I can take that. Look, the answer is yes. You have a lot of scale in India, which is helpful when you're trying to ramp up teams. This is one thing. From an efficiency perspective, this is the second thing it brings to us and to our customers. We have people on the ground that are managing this. I mean, there are people. We know many of them from before and we trust them. I think we have a strong team there. We do believe that it's very important to have people also close to our customers. So we have innovation centers mostly in Auckland, in the U. K. And now India. And I think this gives us a very good balance that also gives us scale and we're pretty excited about it. But it takes time to build a center to be fully knowledgeable. And this is we're putting a lot of focus in this area right now. So I hope that answered the question. Another question. Okay. This one is from also from Phil Campbell. Can you explain in more detail some of the new tech partnerships with AWS and Snowflake, etcetera? What are they helping with and any examples of benefits so far? Okay, good. We just signed the AWS one in the last month. We have been AWS shop for quite some time, but this is more of a strategic discussion or agreement where they help us with our technology, our education, our design. We're actually doing co innovation in the cleantech area. AWS is a very good brand. They are the leader in the cloud and we want to work with a leader because we're a leader and we want to work with leader to take this market. So yes, this is something that we're going to lean into quite a bit, Phil. Snowflake is doing amazing things in Qlik and the data space. All of our customers need to bring a lot more automation and intelligence into their business. This is an area that we're also focusing on. You can bring this type of innovation across all segments that we operate and we have a good strategy here. We understand how to do this. We've done it before. We're actually already rolling out solutions to customers with this technology today. So we're selling it to them and bringing them value. So we're pretty that's the kind of thing we want to focus on. But it's early days with our customers because we just rolled these things off the dock, so to speak. Yes, but that's what we're doing. And any place where we can cut corners and lean into great partners that can help us, we are going to do that. And this is plus it's very cutting edge technology, very cutting edge technology that I think also helps us with our technology brand and capabilities. Joanne? Yes. The next question is from Alex Shevylov from Forager Funds. He asks, H2 2021 cash generation is expected to be neutral or better. Is that neutral or better than first half twenty twenty one cash generation? No. Let me take that good morning, Alex. No, that is neutral implies best than 0 is comparing to 0, not comparing to first half cash flow. And another question from Alex. Is the impact of the utilities revenue losses fully through in second half? Again, let me take that, if I may. You can see we've indicated that we are seeing revenue in the for the full year being slightly ahead of the FY 2020 numbers. We're not making any comments Beyond that, we will talk about metrics external metrics for the business at the 3 year Investor Day that we have in June. But we're not at this stage giving forecasts on impacts of particular changes in customer mix at this stage, only the overall revenue trajectory for this financial year. But you should assume that the number we've indicated of €2,000,000 relates to customer losses in previous periods. Okay. And one last question from the floor. This is from Zen Chen of Zen Capital. Given the current ongoing pandemic situation in India, how big is the impact on your office operations there? Do you have a plan to mitigate the risks on this part? I'll take it. So it's definitely having an impact. It's definitely having an impact. But for sure, we have plans. We have work from home plans. This isn't always ideal in any environment. I think in India, sometimes it's harder. We're doing what we can to get our Indian colleagues vaccines. We've been we have about 11% of our workforce is vaccinated today. It's hard to come by actually there at this moment. We're doing our best. But we are comfortable with the work environment that they've got to and we feel the impact positive impact already on our projects and customers. But for sure, it's I think slowing things down. We have people unfortunately that have come down with COVID and that's the state of the world we're in today. I do think it helps us balance it and this type of situation over time. But to be clear, yes, we have plans. They're in place and the whole Indian center is working. And we hope that they come out of this situation soon very soon. Soon. Joanne, I can see there's a question there on Chabais compensation. If you'd like, I can just give a quick response on that. If you would, that would be great. Thank you. Okay. Thanks, Shazad. The question just so that everyone has the same question. It says, does the outlook factor in the expense of increased share based compensation? And Shazad, the answer to that is yes, we expense share based compensation in our numbers and in the outlook. Back to you, Joanne. Okay. Thank you. I think we have one more time for one more question, and I'm going to just bear with me a second. We've got a few more coming through. And some of them have already been answered, so just bear with me. Another one a final one from Alex at Forager. Can we split gross utilities recurring revenue growth between new wins and existing clients growing? Is that possible? Okay. I'll take that. Alex, we haven't done that, so I can't we're not going to share that here. Appreciate the question. We'll look at it and consider whether appropriate at the Investor Day. Thanks. Okay. Thank you. I think that's all the questions we've got for the time being. Of course, people can if you have further questions, please feel free to e mail them to us, and we would be happy to provide further clarification via e mail. But otherwise, I think we can close today's session. Thank you all. Thanks, Joanne. Thank you. Okay. This concludes today's conference. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.