Good afternoon and good morning, everyone. This is Constantin Baack, CEO of MPC Container Ships, and I would like to welcome you to our Q3 2020 earnings call. Thank you for joining us to discuss MPC Container Ships' Q3 earnings. Last Friday, November 20th , we issued a stock market announcement covering MPCC's Q3 results for the period ending September 30th, 2020. The release, as well as the accompanying presentation for this conference call, are available on the investor and media section of our website. Please be advised that the material provided and our discussion today contain forward-looking statements and indicative figures. Actual results may differ materially from those stated or implied by forward-looking statements due to risks and uncertainties associated with our business activity. Before I guide you through the presentation, let me start with a few opening remarks.
Thus far, the year 2020 has been a remarkable rollercoaster ride for the container shipping industry, and hence also for MPC Container Ships. The global economy has been disrupted to an extent that comparisons are being drawn with the 1930s Great Depression and the 2008 financial crisis. Implications on world economy and the international trading system have been severe. However, following the steep downturn during much of the first half of this year, in terms of lower container volumes, in turn, as a result of regional lockdowns and port closures, container trade has displayed a determined resilience, and we have recently witnessed a robust rebound of container trade. This can be observed and felt in high container volumes, high freight rates, low idle numbers, as well as high charter rates.
During the course of this call, I will elaborate in more detail on the implications this has had, and still has, in fact, on the container markets and MPC Container Ships during 2020, but also why we are positively looking forward to 2021. With the COVID pandemic still being omnipresent, our top operational priority continues to be the safety and wellbeing of our employees and the crew serving on board of our vessels, as well as being a reliable partner to our customers. Equally important is protecting the company's downside risk in the best interest of all stakeholders, while ensuring we do our utmost to maximize shareholder value. We have therefore carried out a number of measures, including a comprehensive recapitalization of the company, so as to position MPC Container Ships to execute on its strategy in a continuously strengthening charter market environment.
Now, please let me guide you through the presentation, in which I would like to start with a short recap of key events in Q3 2020, followed by a market update, before concluding with an outlook for the company. Let me start with some of the key figures of Q3 2020. Please turn to slide four of the presentation. Like in Q2 2020, the financial performance in the third quarter was heavily affected by the COVID-19 market disruption. In particular, the challenge in charter markets during both quarters. At $41.2 million, operating revenues in Q3 were above the Q2 levels. Moreover, Q3 2020 EBITDA, which came in at $2.7 million, was above the levels in Q2.
Whilst our fleet utilization increased notably from 87% in Q2 2020 to 94% during the third quarter, average TCE across the fleet dropped from $7,928 to $7,412 per day in vessel in the third quarter. Despite operational challenges and additional costs, for example, in relation to crew changes or vessel deviations caused by the pandemic, we have been able to reduce OPEX levels compared to 2019 without compromising on safety, reliability, and quality of our vessel operations. As for the end of Q3, the company had a cash balance of roughly $50 million. The key balance sheet figures remained solid with an equity ratio of 57% and a moderate financial leverage of just below 40%. More details on the Q3 financials can be found on our website and in the appendix of this presentation.
Please turn to slide five, where we provide an update on key developments and activities for Q3 2020. Let me start with market developments, which you can see at the bottom of this page. The year 2020 started rather encouraging with moderate full-year GDP growth expectations of three percent plus and charter rates at solid levels well above comparable rates observed in the previous years. However, this took a dramatic turn in the wake of COVID-19 and the subsequent economic downturn. Some key figures comparing December 2019 with June 2020 and November 2020 figures and expectations are shown at the bottom of the slide, which reflect the sudden shift in market expectations across indicators. I will elaborate in a bit more detail on the most recent developments in the upcoming market and outlook section.
Especially, the developments over summer have left a footprint on the activities, and financial results of MPCC in Q2 as well as Q3 2020, in particular on charter rates and fleet utilization. As such, our key focus from a financial viewpoint continued to center around liquidity preservation. In order to strengthen the liquidity and balance sheet of the company, a recapitalization program was carried out during the summer months, and we have continued to place an emphasis on cost control and cost optimization, while seeking to maintain upside on the chartering side to benefit from an expected post-COVID market recovery. Just like the previous quarter operationally, the Q3 has been extremely busy. In this challenging market environment, we have benefited from our strong relationships and market position in the charter market. We have concluded a number of fixtures in Q3 2020.
Year to date 2020, we have fixed 159 charters with more than 50 different operators. Simultaneously, we have been able to significantly reduce our OPEX and have continued with the implementation of a cost optimization program to further bring down the cash break-even per vessel. Whilst our OPEX levels are already highly competitive, we are confident that we will be able to improve them even further going forward. A key focus has been and will continue to be ensuring safe and reliable operations whilst improving KPIs in a still demanding COVID-19 market environment with port closures, lockdowns, and certain limitations when it comes to crew changes. We are very pleased with the operational performance in this difficult market. This has been made possible with the commendable efforts and flexibility of the crew serving aboard our vessels, for which I'm grateful.
Going forward, operational challenges remain present due to the global implications of the pandemic, which we can only successfully meet, through joint efforts and support between onshore and offshore colleagues. I will now provide an update on the key market dynamics. Please turn to the next slide of the presentation. Initially, I would like to focus on some key developments of 2020 and explain some of the short-term dynamics before looking at the mid-term market fundamentals. We're looking at slide seven, as mentioned before, 2020 has been a rollercoaster year for the container market. We have seen a global recession comparable with the financial crisis, followed by a rapid recovery of container volumes at a pace that is also unprecedented. The two graphs on slide seven illustrate this development.
The graph on the left shows global TEU volumes, reflects the steep drop and subsequent significant V-shaped rebound during the past few months. The graph on the right shows the two key boxship rate indices, the Shanghai Containerized Freight Index and the Containership Time Charter Index. It illustrates the development, in particular, the time lag of the charter rate rebound compared to the rise in freight rate. Both indices are presently at a 10-year high. Major liner operators such as Maersk Line, Hapag-Lloyd, or CMA CGM have reported strong earnings in Q3 due to low fuel prices and a significant increase in freight rates, as these have on average more than doubled in 2020. On some trade routes, like for example, Transpacific, they have more than tripled. This has enabled room for charter rate increases, as these are only a fraction of the cost of liner operators.
At the current charter rate levels, also non-operating owners like MPC Container Ships are expected to make good money, and having customers that earn good money should be positive for operating owners going forward. Please turn to slide eight, where we focus on the most recent market developments in terms of charter rates and utilization. Please note that the chart at the left shows the development of the idle fleet, and the chart on the right shows the charter rate development for vessel sizes up to 5,000 TEU. The graph shows a rapid and significant up and down during 2020. As a consequence of a significant number of blank sailings, the idle statistic had climbed significantly and peaking in May 2020, reflecting more than 11% of global fleet being idle.
From June onwards, following the ease of lockdowns in the Western economies and strong demand figures, the trend was reversed, with now only 1.5% of the global fleet being idle. With a slight time lag, charter rates also started to improve, initially for larger tonnage, but subsequently also for smaller units, and current rate levels are in fact significantly above 2019 levels. In fact, the charter market is booming, and not only has the idle tonnage come down and the rates increased, also the charter periods have improved significantly. It is worth noting that the charter rate index in fact reflects the levels that we have been able to fix vessels at during the last couple of weeks.
We have, for example, been able to charter out 1,200 TEUs at levels above $8,000 per day, 1,700 TEUs at levels close to $12,000 per day, and larger vessels at levels up to $17,000, $18,000 per day. The indices reflected on the right-hand side are in line with actual fixtures achievable in the market. Whilst this is a highly positive development for charter tonnage in general and for the MPCC fleet in particular, other elements must be taken into account as well, especially when assessing the sustainability of the current situation. In that respect, please go to the next slide nine, where I would like to take a closer look at latest time charter momentum, average fixing periods, as well as redelivery spreads, and explain how I believe this will shape the market going forward.
On the top left, we have illustrated the time charter rate momentum in form of a candlestick chart. This illustrates how charter rates have developed from the first to the last day of each month. The strong rate development of the past few months become clearly visible, in particular the big steps in October and November when looking at the illustration. At the same time, as illustrated on the top right, average charter periods have also increased notably, whilst re-delivery spreads have decreased. We are presently seeing periods of six up to 12 months for vessels smaller than 1,700 TEU, and periods between one up to three years for vessel sizes above 1,700 up - 5,000 TEU. Seeing high charter rates in combination with longer periods is extremely good for charter tonnage providers and a good indicator for where the market stands. Why is it an important indicator?
It is an important indicator because firstly, it provides owners with the opportunity to lock in longer periods at interesting rates and cash yields. Secondly, it has a significant impact on the availability of tonnage over the next couple of months. Vessels fixed for longer periods will be unavailable to the charter market for a certain period, which will positively contribute to a more stable charter market, also for the smaller sizes. This is further illustrated at the bottom left, where we have shown average charter rate levels, periods, and re-delivery spreads, all based on Clarksons, for vessels between one and 3,000 TEU in June compared to November 2020. Whilst the average charter rate in June was $6,400 per day, with highly flexible periods, meaning short periods with flexible re-delivery spreads.
The charter rate for the same vessel basket is presently at around $12,300 per day. Periods have become significantly longer and significantly less flexible. This leads to a decrease in the re-delivery risk exposure of the market. As more and more fixtures get renewed, significantly less vessels are trading within the re-delivery spread. Vessels fixed now will on average not become available until end Q3 or Q4 of next year. This will positively impact the stability of the charter market in the quarters ahead, especially if the trend continues, which is presently our clearest expectation, at least for the next couple of months and quarters. Even in case of a potential future demand dip, this imposes a stabilizing momentum. I will comment further on the sustainability of the current trend in more detail later in the presentation.
Moving from the charter market to the S&P market on slide 10. Usually, secondhand prices follow time charter rates with a time lag of about two months. Recently, we have observed a notable uptick in activity in Q3, and even more so in Q4 2020, especially for tonnage above 2,000 TEU. In my view, this does not yet reflect the longer period and higher charter rates recently concluded in the charter market, nor do they reflect the latest S&P transactions that have been executed. I, therefore, expect secondhand prices to continue to increase, headed by larger vessels, especially as long as it is possible to lock in longer period charters at the present charter rate level.
You see at the bottom right one example of a transaction that was recently concluded selling two 3,500 TEU vessels for $12.5 million a piece. That shows a significant uplift compared to the indices shown on the top right of this slide. New building prices and activity, see bottom left, especially in the size segment below 5,000 TEU, have been pretty much uneventful, and we continue to expect only limited ordering activity for smaller sizes due to the uncertainty about the right propulsion and the risk of building a vessel with an insufficient technological and regulatory lifetime, and hence, incredibly high residual value risk. Shifting from the short-term market dynamics to the longer-term or midterm market fundamentals and outlook. Please turn to slide 11. The chart on the left shows the global market in terms of demand and supply, illustrating the clear gap in 2020.
Based on an annual basis, the year 2020 is expected to see a decline of three percent in terms of demand. It is important to note that this is only due to the very low volumes between March and June of this year as a result of COVID-19-caused lockdowns. Since then, volumes have actually increased significantly, as referred to on slide five on this presentation. An example, U.S. imports based on customs data for the Port of L.A. in October 2020, were up more than 20% year-on-year. For 2021, rebalancing of the overall market is expected, which is even the case at a slightly lower than expected demand growth.
As can be seen in the chart on the right-hand side, where we compare the capacity growth for smaller vessels with expected demand growth in intra-regional trades, the rebalancing trend is even more pronounced for the sector, specifically relevant for MPCC. The supply side has come in pretty much in line with our expectations during the last couple of years, forecasting the demand side with trade war and COVID-19 has been extremely challenging and basically almost impossible. Just like many others, we have not seen all of this coming. Leaving aside the risk of another unforeseeable demand disruption, there are various data points that suggest the continuation of the positive trend, and that point towards a solid demand growth for the container market in 2020. Firstly, resilience of container trade and the rollout of various supportive measures. What does that mean?
Firstly, despite record numbers of COVID-19 infections, volumes are increasing. There's no sign of the usual seasonality, at least only slightly, charter markets are still improving. COVID-19 showed stronger and more sustainable impact on non-tradable goods and local regional services. The establishment of the world's largest free trade zone in Asia Pacific region is expected to drive economic growth in that region that has been hard hit by the coronavirus pandemic. The Biden administration, that is our view, will also push forward with a large economic stimulus package in 2021 supporting economic growth. Secondly, shift in consumer behavior and rethinking of global sourcing strategies. More people have adapted to basically e-tail consumption. E-commerce is clearly here to stay. E-commerce strongly relies on international trading patterns and shipping of goods and components. The pandemic brought forward a rethinking of global sourcing strategies.
There is a shift in trading patterns observed towards more regionally diversified production of intermediate goods. This is expected to additionally increase intra-regional trades, especially in Asia. Finally, proper container market fundamentals, and that is what we have illustrated on this slide. We are looking at a historically low order book of eight percent, also in the feeder segment. The demand growth for 2021 for full year is expected to be solid, and even if it's below the levels currently envisaged, we will see a further rebalancing. The charter market momentum that we've discussed also showed that vessels are fixed for longer periods and smaller redelivery spreads. Hence, the situation can be assumed to be relatively stable until certainly the second half of 2021. Following this analysis, we have positive expectations for the demand growth, in particular for 2021, but also for the midterm.
Now let's turn to slide 12, which provides further details on key indicators for the supply outlook. Namely, the order book to fleet analysis on the top left, the composition of the order book by size cluster on the top right, and the age structure by vessel size at the bottom left. Starting with the order book to fleet, the blue columns represent the world fleet on the water, the red columns the order book, and the black line the order book to fleet ratio, which currently stands, as I mentioned, at a historical low. Looking at the composition of the order book on the top right and the fleet age structure in conjunction at the bottom left, it is worth highlighting that the existing order book is strongly geared towards the very large container vessels.
At the same time, compared with the global fleet, the smaller units are relatively old, with 37% of the existing fleet being above 15 years of age. Looking ahead, it can be highlighted that 2020 will be one of the years with the lowest ordering activity on record. Only 2009 was a year with similarly low new ordering activity. Following the market section, I would now like to turn to slide 14, where we zoom in on some more company-specific aspects for Q3 and going forward. On the top left, we have benchmarked the MPCC charter performance versus Alphaliner as the common reference for idle fleet, applying the Alphaliner idle definition to our fleet. In a challenging and highly volatile market, MPCC has performed well compared with the benchmark.
On the top right, we divided the quarterly charter fixtures of MPCC in three categories, always compared to the rate of the last done fixture. Fixtures basically that came in higher than the last done fixtures that were at the same level and fixtures that came in low. What you can see is that whilst Q1 we have seen a mixed bag of better and worse fixtures, Q2 pretty much was a disaster and we were in the midst of the charter market doldrum. Towards the second half of Q3, we have been able to fix rates that were an improvement compared to previous fixtures. In quarter to date, Q4 2020, we have actually been able to secure almost all fixtures at significantly better rates than previously seen in Q3.
The table on the bottom right shows the average rates, average periods and average redelivery spreads in line with what I've explained earlier on the market, but this time for all MPCC related fixtures year to date 2020. This also reflects the market developments that I've explained in the market section, and specifically that in Q4 we have been able to fix significantly improved rates combined with longer periods, as you can see from the illustration. Now please turn to page 15, where we have further illustrated the charter developments in Q4 and going forward for the MPCC fleet. Following the 20 new fixtures as per quarter to date, Q4 2020, and based on the current redelivery scheme for our fleet, we expect another 40 charter renewals until the end of Q2 2020.
As can be seen in the diagram, the fixtures quarter to date so far had an overweight in the smaller units, smaller than 1,700 TEU, which must be considered when looking at both the average TCE as well as the periods on these fixtures. To provide a few data points, we have recently fixed the larger vessels for periods up to 20 months at rates of around $16,000 per day. 15 and 1,700 TEU have been fixed at rates between $11,000-$12,000 per day and periods of up to 12 months. Further details on the employment of the fleet can be found in the appendix of this presentation, specifically pages 29 - 31. Please turn to page 16 where we have now looked at the EBITDA potential and delevering capacity of the MPCC fleet.
During the past few quarters, the cash break-even levels were affected by one-off CapEx related to scrubber costs, in particular, during Q1 of this year. The chart on the left shows the normalized operating and investing cash break-even of MPCC of roughly $7,750 per day, including financing costs. The chart on the right illustrates annualized EBITDA sensitivities based on the cash break-even levels and different charter rates. From left to right, it shows the annualized EBITDA expectations based on, firstly, actual TCE earned by MPCC in Q3, Clarksons levels pre-COVID, MPCC actual levels from 2018, quarter to date TCE levels for Q4 2020, as well as the Clarksons reference levels for our vessel basket for November 2020. You can see, there's a high degree of operational leverage when it comes to our fleet, and we are positive in the way forward, especially looking at the upcoming fixtures.
Please turn to slide 17, where we have looked at some valuation scenarios with regards to the MPCC fleet. At the very left, we start from the current capital market valuation, as per Friday last week, of a NOK price of around NOK 490, and a market capitalization of around NOK 215 million. We have compared these values with values taken from Clarksons and considering the three MPCC TEU clusters to reflect the potential upside from a market recovery, especially in light of the lagging behind of asset prices that we've discussed during the market section. We have simply used various asset value references, pre-COVID-19 asset values, the respective average values in 2018, as well as new building parity values, and translated this into an implied NAV and share price sensitivity, as illustrated on the slide.
Please turn to slide 18 as I would like to sum up my presentation. As mentioned during today's introductory remarks, the container shipping industry has been through a rollercoaster 2020. MPC Container Ships 2020 financials and operations have been and will be heavily affected by the implications of COVID-19 pandemic. However, for the remainder of 2020, and certainly for 2021, industry experts expect a remarkable, robust container market momentum with continuously strengthening charter rates. Furthermore, as highlighted throughout my presentations, while it's challenging to predict the future, there are numerous data points that support a positive outlook for 2021 with a continuous rebalancing of demand and supply. On that note, I would like to hand over to the moderator, and I'm looking forward to receiving your question.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question over the phone, please press star one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. If you wish to cancel your request, please press the hash key. For web participants, please submit a question by typing it into the Ask a Question tab on the right-hand side of the screen. Thank you. Once again, as a reminder, if you wish to ask a question over the phone, please press star one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. If you wish to cancel your request, please press the hash key. For web participants, please submit a question by typing it into the Ask a Question tab on the right-hand side of the screen. Thank you.
Your first question comes from the line of Frode Mørkedal. Please ask your question.
Yeah. Hi, guys. Could you maybe give an estimate of how much of first half 2021 days have now been fixed out already?
Yes. Hi, Frode. I'm happy to answer that. It's a bit of a moving target as we fix vessels almost by the day at the moment, but we have presently fixed around 25%-27% of the charter days for next year. We basically have three-fourths of the days still open for next year, which will obviously roll over as we do further fixtures. One-fourth, so Q1 , for next year in terms of days is already fixed.
Okay. How much of that is roughly, let's say, old charter parties being maximized, so to speak, in terms of redelivery, and how much is new fixtures recently?
Well-
In other words, like Yeah.
No, I understand the question. It's probably 50% - 60% is still, let's call it, legacy fixtures, and the remainder is new fixtures. It's worth noting that obviously we have also fixed some long-term charters on some of our scrubber vessels, which are obviously also included in the figure that I've mentioned, and they go throughout 2021, right? I think the assumption 50-50 is probably not so far off.
Okay. utilization in Q3 were pretty high. Yeah, 94%. What should we expect in Q4? If you have any, let's say, guidelines for next year, what you think is realistic utilization of your fleet?
First of all, for Q4, we expect to be pretty much in line with what we've seen in Q3. On next year, it obviously depends also on the charters that we will continue to fix over the next couple of months, right? To the extent we are able to fix longer charters of 12 months plus, which would certainly be something we consider and we would carry out in this charter market environment, then the idling risk is significantly lower than if we were to or had to accept more staggered and shorter charter periods. I think a lot of that will hence be subject to the actual fixtures to be concluded over the next three to three and a half months. I would expect that we at least see the levels that we've seen in Q3 this year, if not better.
Provided markets kind of stay where they are until Q2 of next year.
Yeah, sure. The final question is basically, what's your, let's say, game plan? A huge windfall earnings here coming in. What are your plans going forward?
Well, first of all, obviously we want to kind of benefit from the current charter market environment by logging in these rate levels, which constitute a very interesting cash on cash yield, but also a good earnings cover. In terms of capital allocation, we clearly want to continue to delever the structure. We believe we have a significant operational leverage, as we can see from the current charter rates translating into cash flow for 2021. This would be a very important strategic item, especially with a view on the years ahead. We will definitely want to continue to delever the company and lock in charters at these very interesting levels, certainly for longer periods as well.
Sounds good. Thank you.
Thanks, Ole.
Thank you. There are no further questions over the phone at this time. Please continue.
Thanks, moderator. There are actually two questions through the web. I will read them out and answer them right away. First of all, a question by Erik Haavaldsen. First part of the question, for your upcoming fixtures, will you be looking for longer durations and what kind of durations can you currently achieve? The second question is, as values do come up now, would you rather sell or buy vessels? Let's start with the fixture question first. Yes, we will definitely be looking, and we have, in fact, as I mentioned throughout my presentation, been able to conclude charters of up to 20 months at current levels.
The main question is always how much of a discount do you have to accept potentially if you go for longer rates, as long as we can lock in current rate levels also for prolonged periods, we believe it's attractive for the company. We would definitely look for that and what type of durations we can actually achieve. On the larger vessels above 1,700, we can, in all likelihood, get two, maybe up to three years. Something between one and three years, I'd say. On the smaller units, we can get up to 12 months at the moment, between six and 12 months, most likely. That's obviously a snapshot of what can be achieved in today's market. On the question of values and rather selling or buying vessels, we would obviously always look at opportunities, especially if you can lock in longer term rates.
We would always look at optimizing the portfolio. We have sold three smaller vessels in the course of this year, smaller and slightly older vessels. Optimizing the portfolio is a continuous task that we would look at, obviously, that we would always be looking at. That is basically the answer to that question. There is another question through the web by Olav Koretsky. He was asking, or he was basically saying that the interesting figure would be which fixtures were better or worse than the market, not comparing them with the last fixture of the respective vessel. Well, that's a question, of course, you can never compare fixtures with each other, because you have different locations, different regions, et cetera. Therefore, you obviously have to consider the respective position of the vessels.
Obviously part of that is also internal intelligence, so we will not share that with the public. Looking at our track record in fixing vessels, I think we can be quite positive on that end. We will certainly not disclose individual fixtures compared to others due to the lack of comparability. There's another question through the web of Marcos Lanneskorb. The question is an estimate of our annualized debt repayments. We have very limited debt repayments. We have mainly bullet structures. We have a debt repayment on one of our facilities of around $3 million-$4 million per annum. That's the only scheduled debt repayment. There's only very limited annual debt repayment in the forecast or in the present figures. Moderator, back to you in case there are more questions through the phone line.
Thank you. As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question over the phone, please press star one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. If you wish to cancel your request, please press the hash key. Web participants may submit a question by typing it into the Ask a Question tab on the right-hand side of the screen. There are no further questions over the phone at this time. Please continue.
Let's wait. There's one more question through the web. I will just read that out. It's a question by Miguel Carazo. He says, "Thank you for letting me ask a direct question. The relatively good outlook for the year 2021 partially depends on the good health of the workforce, both onshore and offshore, in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. Does MPCC have any plans for granting employees access to the coming COVID-19 vaccines? How does such plan look like?" Well, first of all, we are obviously in very close contact with both our technical and our crew manager, and obviously with our crew on board of our ships with regards to the present COVID-19 situation, including basically daily interaction with the vessels. We will, of course, try to grant both employees and crew access to the vaccines.
There's no kind of reliably tested vaccine out there at the moment. We will definitely follow up on that. This is a key priority, as I've said multiple times during my presentation, that the health and wellbeing of our crew and onshore staff is a key element. We are exploring this at the moment where a reliable vaccine is available. There's one more question from Olav Koretsky. He says, "When do you expect dividends?" As I said, and in reply to the question raised by Frode, currently a key capital allocation consideration would be to pay down financial leverage, to use liquidity to do so. We are presently in a situation where under the existing agreements, especially under the bond and with our creditors, we are not allowed to pay out dividends for 2020.
I would not rule out to the extent we can lock in these excellent rates that we currently see in the market. The ultimate goal is certainly to pay out a dividend in the foreseeable future. That's nothing for 2020. We will definitely decide on that as and to the extent we are able to lock in rates in the vicinity of the levels that we are presently seeing in the market. Operator, are there more questions through the phone? We'll wait one more minute to see whether there are further questions through the web.
There are no further questions over the phone at this time.
All right. There are also no further questions through the web. Operator, with that, I would like to hand over to you, and I would like to thank you for moderating the call and obviously everyone for their interest and participation in this call. I wish everyone a healthy remainder of the year in case we don't speak. Thanks, operator, again, and take care and all the best.