Welcome to the Beijer Alma Q4 2025 report presentation. During the questions and answer session, participants are able to ask questions by dialing pound key five on their telephone keypad. Now, I will hand the conference over to the speakers, Acting President and CEO, Johnny Alvarsson, and CFO, Peter Forslund. Please go ahead.
Hello, and welcome, everybody. My voice is a little bit different today. It's not because it's dark time, it's because I have got a cold. And for those who don't know me, I can tell you, I have followed this company since the early nineties and been doing quite other businesses, but last year I was in here for a number of months as CEO, and now—and we can start with the presentation. Together with me, there is Peter Forslund also, who's been in the company for about a year.
Yeah. Good morning, everybody.
We will go through five different subjects. It's the highlights from Q4, financial performance, acquisitions, where we're going in the future, and Q&A. If we then go to the highlights for last quarter, we can say that Beijer Alma consists of two large divisions. One is Lesjöfors and one is Beijer Tech. Lesjöfors is today mainly a number of companies producing springs with different brands. We have around 19 brands, and we are in most parts of the world, without exception for South America and Australia. The other part is Beijer Tech, who at this moment is only in the Nordic area and is acquiring quite different businesses in industrial product, fluid technology, and niche technologies. Beijer Tech is very, very, very equal to what we call serial acquirers.
They work in the same way with a very small overhead, and when you buy a company, you keep the company and you just develop it as it is, you don't look for synergies. Lesjöfors, to a large extent, is the same, but for many years ago, when it started, part of the Lesjöfors, we have an integrated business, but during the last years, the companies we have acquired around the world, they are in the same way, stand-alone businesses as with Beijer Tech. We are in, as I said, these 19 countries. We take the next picture. As we communicated yesterday evening, we have now a goal of growing the EBITDA margin with 50% the per year. As you can see, this is what we just did in 2025.
We also have a goal now for the capital efficiency, and that is 50%, and there we are a little bit behind. We are on 46%. Those of you who met me after Q1 last year, remember I talked about how you should look at Beijer Alma and what I said about also the margins we can expect for different businesses. And if for those who remember what I said, can see that we are on track to our goals. It will take a few years more before we have reached our goals, but we are sure on the right track for that. So we had a nice EBITDA margin growth during 2025 and also during last quarter.
I should say we have started to now put more emphasis on capital efficiency, but this is just in the beginning of a story that we lost for many, many years. Go to the highlights of the quarter. It's been a tough period depending on the market circumstances around the world. Also, for us, specifically in some cases, but in general, if you look at the markets, in United States, it's been no change, more or less. It's a slow market, but it's no change or rather neither upwards or downwards. In Asia, for us, it's actually been a positive trend. We have good opportunities there. We have new customers coming in, and in Europe, it's also okay.
In the Nordic is more slow business when we talk about Lesjöfors, but in the niche businesses, in Beijer Tech, it varies between different companies, so there we see positive trends. And as you see, we had a growth of 3% organic between 2024 and 2025 in the quarter, but the currency hit us hard, and it probably will continue because we had. Still, the US dollar is on a very low level compared to one year ago. Then we can go to Lesjöfors. And Lesjöfors, as I said, is the same as Lesjöfors, are the only business we have in United States. They are on the slow side.
The positive side is that we in Asia have new opportunities for new customers, and then just as a small example, you might have heard of that, the new chips for AI are supposed to be cooled by water, and we actually have new customer. They are supplying a small spring to the connectors, to this cooling water to AI. And with the volumes there is in that area, it will be nice business for us, as a nice example for new areas. On the other hand, in United States, we have had very nice business in medical, but as we expected, that is going down now this year, and we're looking for new opportunities in United States.
In Europe, it's rather same level, but for those who know us, that the springs for door springs business has been reduced, and our export to United States has more or less stopped. So that affects our volume, but all other business is going about on the same level. And very nice is that our aftermarket business, the springs for aftermarket for cars, that accounts for about 20% of turnover, is doing very well, and we are now back on levels before we stopped the business in Russia and before the pandemic also. So as we had had a very nice development in that area. If we then go to Beijer Tech, we did a couple of or actually two acquisitions during the quarter, one in Finland, Ewona, and one in Sweden, Intercut.
There we also have niche businesses, which has developed very well. We invested in expanding factories last year, and they have now paid off, so we can see that in our invoicing and the results from those businesses where we did the investments. So it's been a very good development for Beijer Tech during last year. With that, I give the word to Peter, talk about the financials, and you're welcome back with more questions later on.
Thank you, Johnny. Yeah, we go to the key ratios slide. So say, you see here we have included capital efficiency. That's the first time we disclose numbers on capital efficiency. We will try to the annual report also to give you a breakdown on the different business areas with the divisions with Lesjöfors and Beijer Tech, so we will get more depth in the knowledge over time. The board has also proposed a dividend of SEK 4 per share for the annual general meeting to make a decision on later in the spring. News there is that the payment will be divided in two installments, one in the spring and one roughly six months later.
Well, we come in a little bit on the background when we come to the financial slides and the cash flow slides. Yeah, we leave the other key ratios as is. I will give you a little bit more on the results and a little bit more on details when it comes to the development. So overall, a stable performance in the quarter. When you look at the profitability levels, you will see a positive mix in Lesjöfors. Chassis had a good development, and then we have had, so say, a little bit of shrinking business, mainly due to the currency effects within the industrial sector. But that gives a positive mix effect from the Chassis side.
Top-line in the Lesjöfors industrial part is affected by the savings program that we launched back in June. So there is businesses where the profitability levels has not been where we expected, that we have closed down. We have closed down a factory. We have, so to say, stopped the export to U.S. We have closed a business line in Turkey. All of that gives a top-line effect that you see in the report, that the organic growth within Lesjöfors Industrial is a little bit more sluggish. So both a market thing, but also a decision that we made to stop some non-profitable businesses to make sure we choose and pick what is really profitable.
In the quarter, if you take the U.S. door business, that's around SEK 35 million that we lose in top line, and we expect the same level of drop also in Q1 and Q2. That business stopped in the later end of Q2 last year. So the comparisons for the next two quarters will also be affected by those top-line effects. We have talked quite a lot about Alcomex, and it's an important part of the program that we'll be running. Alcomex is fairly stable development. I think it's wise to point out there is still work to do before we are where we want to be profitability levels.
The closing of the factory that we did was so to say finalized in the back end of November, meaning there is still work to do on that front before we are happy with the profitability in Alcomex. Beijer Tech, as Johnny mentioned, is performing on a high level. All business areas is chipping in. We saw the effect from the ramp up from the investments. The effect was a little bit stronger in the end of the quarter than we expected. We have especially Botek, which has performed very well when they have increased the capacity even above our expectations. So it's been strong delivery from a couple of Botek companies.
It's also worthwhile pointing out that even if transaction cost is a part of the business, so for comparable reasons, in Q4 last year, we didn't have any transaction costs. And when you do transactions in Finland, you have also stamp taxes corrected to that. So a little bit higher transaction costs in the quarter compared to Q4 last year is also, so to say, affecting that you don't really see the improvement in the underlying performance. We also can mention a little bit on the Botek side, that from the fire safety companies, that we have had a very strong end to the year, and this is mainly due to a one-time order that we've had in the quarter and delivered in the quarter.
So it's a positive effect from that as well. Not something that we see every quarter, but that business in itself is strong. Good. I jumped one slide too many. Yeah. So talking a little bit about cash flows. We get through a fairly positive cash flow in the quarter, I would say even strong. And here you see a little bit of the reasoning on the dividend payment that we discussed earlier, that the cash flow in the first quarter of the year generally is weaker due to the setup of the Chassis Springs business when it comes to customer rebates, making the cash flow lower in Q1.
To get a better flow of the cash over the year, then that's what we have proposed, the board has proposed an annual meeting to decide on splitting the dividend payment, one in the spring and one then October, November, somewhere. We expect the seasonal pattern to repeat in Q1 2026 when it comes to the cash flow. Looking at the capital efficiency, it's been a good improvement over the year. It's driven by the Botek growth that we have, and you also see a bit of a currency when it comes to translation of the item as well. So it's the absolute number increase looks a little bit smaller than it actually is. It's affected also by currency.
Coming into the financial position, a good news from the quarter is that we have a new financing in place, with the three Nordic banks, putting on a multicurrency revolving credit facility and a number of term loans in relation to that. It's a three-year facility with the possibility to extend. We think that we have good conditions and high flexibility in the financing, making sure that we have the financing we need for the coming years. We are on a net activity level of 1.7, meaning that we have a good amount of cash available to invest in growth and in acquisitions. So we should have the headroom that we need to reach the targets that we have set.
Looking a little bit then on the full year, it was close, but no cigar on reaching the SEK 5 billion in Lesjöfors. We will leave that for next year. It's a solid organic growth in Lesjöfors over the year, around 3%. You have a currency effect. As Johnny said, we expect currency if the rates stay at the current level to be significant also in Q1. Then, the longer the year goes on, the easier currency comparisons will be of sorts. But, yeah, the U.S. dollar at 9, there is still currency effects to pass through. If you look at Botek, we've had the organic growth of around 5%. It's a strong performance from Botek overall in the year.
We've made five acquisitions, adding around 50% in revenue on that side. We made the acquisitions in all business area within Botek, so we have a good spread on the acquisitions that we have done. Great, Johnny. Then I'll leave it back to you.
Well, I think, I guess it's more to leave it back to questions.
If you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key six on your telephone keypad.
The next question comes from Max Bacco from SEB. Please go ahead.
Thank you, and good morning to both of you. I have three quite short questions, and the first one you already touched upon during the presentation, but looking at Lesjöfors, very nice profitability improvement once again, also here in Q4, and as you highlighted, mixed effect with Chassis growing. Is there anything more to add to that, or is it just the mix explaining the upstate in profitability compared to Q4 2024?
No, but from my side, we have the savings program that we have, that we have done, that we see a good effect from. We get the effect that we expect from it.
Yeah. Okay. Yep, that's clear. And then looking at the order intake, I mean, - 1% organically here, compared to Q4 last year. Should we read this as any implications for the coming quarters, or is it more a timing effect?
I think it's, that's mainly the cool play.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
It's door springs.
Okay.
Yeah.
Understood.
Yeah.
If you look at the Beijer Tech side, I mean, there you see that the order intake is sort of, say, on the negative side as well, on the organic. And that is because in Q4 last year, it's one of the installation companies or project-driven company. They had a very high order intake in the end of the year, but that's project that is delivered over two to three years, meaning that, I mean, there is no sequential effect from that, from Q4 into Q1, so to say, so.
For Beijer Tech in general, they have a lot of project businesses, big projects. That means it's hard to just measure over one quarter and see the trends.
Okay, understood. And then the final question, it's a bit broader question, but, I mean, given the strategic shift that has been implemented throughout 2025, and then from rotation in terms of group CEO, but also responsible for the Lesjöfors, how is the organization coping with all these changes, would you say?
Well, we are in the start of the process, but I think, the new goals we have now were communicated is well accepted by the organization, for sure.
Okay, sounds good. That was all from me. Thank you very much, and I wish you a speedy recovery, and I hope you get well soon.
Thank you. As I said, we take questions now and then-
The next question comes from Carl Ragnerstam from Nordea. Please go ahead.
Good morning. It's Carl from Nordea. A couple of questions my side as well. Firstly, touching upon chassis springs, nice to see growth, but, but, but on the other hand, it is a bit decelerating sequentially. Obviously, we have comps that is one factor, but, but do you see any inventory dynamics as we've seen historically when it's sort of a warm start to the winter that could have impacted the sales volumes in chassis? Or what do you say about that?
I think it's an impossible question.
Yes.
But I can tell you, we have actual problems to manufacture enough springs, so our, our own stock is on the low side at this moment.
But, I mean, I think still it is rather fantastic that we are back on levels as before Russia. That was a very important-
Business for us, very profitable business.
Yeah, I think if you talk the sequent-
Okay, yeah.
If you take the sequential story, it, it's really what we told in Q3, that Q3 last year was, so to say, very, very weak. So the comp there was easy, compared to what we are facing now. Q4 is a much more normal comp.
Okay, so you see nothing in the sell in, sell out dynamic then, in the distribution part of your chain?
No, it's very difficult to have that kind of detailed understanding of where we're moving.
Okay, that's clear. You talked about the production discontinuation of November, December. Were you able to absorb volumes in other units, or what impact did that have in the quarter?
Yeah, exactly. We're moving the production to other facilities.
But when you do that, there is always a period where you're not, you're not performing on top, so to say, to-
Sure
... to cover all needs, and I think that's, that's fully expected and fully accepted, so.
We are partly, as you maybe remember, there was a factory that burned down in Finland last year, and that manufacture-
moving to Sweden, but, you know, it takes time to order machines and everything. So, so that will take probably in one year or something, then we will back on the same track as before.
Okay. That is very clear. And you also touched upon the big orders and deliveries in fire safety in Beijer Tech. Is it possible to give any magnitude on that? Thanks.
No, it's difficult to give a magnitude, but it's... I mean, if you look at the organic growth, say that it is less than 1% or so, around that number, that you add an extra 1% on the organic growth from that.
And the final one, if I may. I mean, I've seen many AI angles in stories, but I didn't expect it in Beijer Alma, to be honest. So could you talk a bit about that? You touched upon the AI chip spring opportunity. How big is that business now? What do you see in terms of potentials when you talk to your potential or already existing customers? Thank you.
Well, it's, you know, I just gave it as an interesting example what's happening in the market. As we, this door business went away, as we have, let's say, the medical business in, in Asia is doing very well. At the same time, the medical business in U.S., as planned, is going down, and suddenly comes this up... So that is just how the market looks like, and suddenly something else that shows up. We will have volumes, but I can't give you any figures about that.
Okay, that is very clear. Thank you.
Thank you, Carl. Yeah. And yes, as we said before, that we will take, so to say, questions on the financials, then we go into acquisition and give the strategic update, and then we will open for questions if there are any left after the strategic update as well. But it is also good to cover a little bit of questions here on the financial side before we move on. So please, next question.
The next question comes from Carl Korsheden from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good morning, Johnny and Peter. If we just look a little bit on the Beijer Tech, I noticed it's 8% organic growth in the quarter, which is obviously strong, but maybe not as much of a drop-through on that growth as one might have expected. Is there anything to highlight there? Is this the transaction cost you were talking a little bit about, or is there anything in terms of a mix or similar you should also keep in mind?
No, I think transaction cost is a good one. It's a good one. I mean, in the last quarter, we had a very, very, very strong from the Niche Technologies. Now we have a little bit more mixed growth, that also so to say. There is a slightly mix effect on that, but not much. So in terms of profitability, the comparison, if you add back the transaction cost, you come up a bit, and it looks more reasonable.
Hmm. And, if we circle back a little bit more to the Lesjöfors margins, is it possible to quantify the magnitude of these different components if we, for instance, talk about the cost savings in Alcomex, possible mix effect, I don't know, medical, perhaps in Asia, driving something to that, and also the winding down of the U.S. operations in Alcomex?
You know, you know, it's. We also have we reduced the overhead cost rather dramatically in second quarter. That also say it's a combination, a number of different effects, including what you mentioned also. So it adds up to these figures. And some of you know what I think is the future goal for that business when we are through. Still, we have some things, some things to clean up after Alcomex during this year as well.
Yeah, understood. And on the topic of Alcomex, is it possible to give any indication where we are currently standing in terms of margins there?
I will not comment on that detail level, but I mean, year to date, the profitability has really moved in the right direction. We're improving from last year. We expect to achieve a more stable 26, but as we said earlier, we are not fully there, and there is volatility still to be expected there. I mean, you have to remember, in the base of the door spring market, the door spring market is still what we will classify as very weak. So coming back and coming up is also connected to getting volumes back. It's one of the markets there where it's darkest, so to, let's say.
Yeah, understood. And just, finally, from my side, if you just looked at the demand situation overall, I think it would be helpful to hear you talk a little bit more about the current, sort of market situation, maybe particularly the Lesjöfors industrial side of it. It seems like the organic growth, in that part came down slightly sequentially here versus Q3, even if we adjust for the Alcomex comparison in the U.S. there, and order intake may be slightly on the weaker side or so. So, just hear you talk a little bit about what you're seeing currently and maybe what we can expect in terms of trend for the next one, two quarters.
The Nordic part, Lesjöfors Nordic is a big part of, or important part of, Lesjöfors, and they have a couple of large customers there, and that is truck industry. And as you know, truck industry is down, and that we suffer off, as well as ABB Robotics. On the other hand, we have Hitachi, which is growing dramatically, but of course, that is not fully compensating for the downturn in the truck industry. But I guess, I guess that the truck industry is on, on its lowest level now and probably will pick up, and that will help, help the Nordic business. In the Asian, and we have, medical business doing well, and as I mentioned, this, springs for, for, for the, the, the liquid cooling of chips. In United States, it's, it doesn't happen that much.
It's a slow business, and we have some large customers since many, many years, and they are on the low side than in the industrial. So, and who knows about the future? I think, probably when truck industry improves, it will... You can see that in our figures. And then we will also, of course, work normally, trying to find new products with existing customers and also new customers.
You see a diversification between the different, so to say, segments in the market, just as Johnny is pointing out, that you have a number of areas that are strong, then you have a number of areas that are clearly weaker, and that it makes it difficult to get to the full picture. It's really down to the segments. We have energy, we have defense, we have a number of segments that are strong, both in Nordics and in other places, but you also have segments that are weak. So the difference between the weak and the strong ones are fairly high at the moment.
Yeah, that's super helpful. And just maybe one last from my side. If we just look up, yeah, management and now there has been some changes recently. How long do you expect it will take to find a new permanent CEO?
It normally takes between six and eight months, as last year.
Understood. Thank you very much. That was all from me.
Thank you.
The next question comes from Patrick Schwartz from Pareto Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning. I have a couple of questions here. First on, this move here from Finland to Lesjöfors. How should we think about capital expenditures during 2026?
That part is covered by insurance. We have a very good insurance.
Okay, thank you. Yeah, that's, that's great. And then on working capital here. There's been kind of a release here during the last quarter and also this quarter, and you've made some great improvements. How should we think about working capital here in the near term? Of course, over time, you expect to improve profitability to working capital, but yeah, any color here in the near term?
No, it's difficult. As Johnny said a little bit in the beginning, we are starting to work with the capital efficiency, trying to get an understanding out in the organization and trying to get this as one of the important daily tasks in many functions. And so to say, it will take time for the effects of that to come in. Short term, it's very difficult to guide anything on that. I mean, we can look at the history, but we have no better guidance than that.
Okay. And then also on kind of a previous question here on kind of the seasonality. Of course, it's been so far a bit of a colder winter. How should we think about chassis springs here on working capital build?
We have problems with volume in the end of the year. We didn't have enough that we have to build a bit more stock now in general in that area. It's dramatic, but some increase. You know, it's totally we have a number of different areas, so it's hard to judge what the total value will be for the stock, for the whole of the Beijer Alma. But what we will come back, we will show a few targets on the future now, so we can talk about also the stock values and capital efficiency. Maybe there are-
Okay, thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you. And then finally, on kind of order intake here, +1% in Lesjöfors, and how was chassis springs here, given that I assume a large part of the drive here was related to door springs?
Yeah, exactly. We don't guide on, so to say, the order intake specific chassis. We only do that on the full level.
Okay. Thank you very much. That was all for me.
Great. Then we will continue with a very short part on acquisitions and then go into the strategy part.
Last year, we promised the market to give financial goals beginning of this year, and we issued those yesterday after the decision on, in the board Beijer Alma. And our goal is to have an EBITDA growth of at least 15% a year, where all we expect that ten to twelve percent will be acquired growth and three to five percent organic growth. Organic growth, of course, depending on the general market, how it develops. And so what will happen also now is that we will use all the companies we have around the world as a base for acquisitions in other areas. And we used to buy a lot of spring companies, but we'll also buy companies with other smaller components around the world, is our goal.
That means also we will have an even more international footprint for the future. And we will also improve or try to improve the capital efficiency, put focus on that. And our goal is to be about 50%. We are now on the level of 46, so it will take a while, but we will implement measurements in the organization to make a stimuli to really work with the capital efficiency in the group. Okay, we can go to the next slide. And here you can see how we have grown over the years. So if we have this 15% growth, we will double our turnover roughly in five years.
During the last five years, we actually almost been there with 1.8 times between 2020 and 2025. Our acquisition focus will be, as always has been actually, is business to business. We work industrial tech, we will work with companies we understand. We are looking for companies at the right price, and if it's the price is not right, we will not acquire. So we will also work where we look at each company. If a company has opportunity to grow its market and keep the margin, we will grow the company.
But if there are companies we acquire that has a limited market geographically, we think it's better to let them stay where they are, have a nice margin, and use the money for acquisitions of other businesses instead of pushing growth at any cost. But we will—we have, and we will continue to have growth initiatives in all companies where it's suitable. As you see, we are on many places around the world, but I should say that our focus for acquisitions will be on Europe. At this moment, I personally have experience of acquiring companies in United States, and we have four companies there today. But at this moment, with the market situation and political situation in the United States, we will not focus on that.
We will focus on acquisitions in Europe, and we don't think that there are so many acquisition targets, interesting targets in Asia. We have done one in India last year, so we have a footprint in India, and there might come more in the future. But others in Asia is not prioritized. In this moment, it's Europe we will have as a priority for the future. And we are going to use the local know-how we have by all these people we have in different countries. It's much easier for an Englishman to talk to an Englishman than if it's a Swede comes and talk to an Englishman and want to acquire a company. We are also going to increase our M&A team with more resources. We are lacking resource at this moment, but we have people coming in into the organization.
Great! I think we can leave it open for questions, if there are any questions on the strategic part.
The next question comes from Carl Ragnerstam from Nordea. Please go ahead.
Carl, are you there? No Carl.
The next question comes from Max Bacco from SEB. Please go ahead.
Thank you, and hi again. Just a very short question on the capital allocation going ahead. How will you make sure that capital is allocated in the right way when looking at Lesjöfors versus Beijer Tech? Will the capital allocation be decentralized in that way, ensuring that it... The right segment is prioritized, I'd say?
Well, I should say that all investment over a certain level is decided by me or the board. All acquisitions in Beijer Alma is decided by the board.
Yes. Okay, that's very clear. That, that was all I had. Thank you.
The next question comes from Johan Dahl from Danske Bank. Please go ahead.
Yes, good morning, everyone. Just a question on this European acquisition pipeline. This is a strategic shift, obviously, going from Industrial Springs to sort of a wider scope for acquisitions. I was just thinking, can you talk about the current pipeline, the current scouting potential shortlist that you have if you're targeting Europe? I'm not talking about the Nordics, but in Europe. And secondly, can you also talk about a bit more specifically on the resources you're aiming to add an incremental cost investment to sort of get this going in Beijer Alma? Thanks.
At this moment, we have pinpointed four persons in Europe who already are in the organization, has been there for quite a while, and so that of course will... Then we have one recruitment going on a central level. So that's where we start. So the list today is not that long. So we will start, this will happen during the year, so we are in a startup phase now.
Would you say, Johnny, that you know, just looking maybe one or two years ahead, does it seem fair to assume that you know, Beijer Tech with its Nordic franchise being much more a developed pipeline, I guess, that perhaps more will happen there in the sort of short term compared to in Europe? Or what do you have? Do you have any input there?
Yeah. Depending on how many opportunities there are in the Nordic. But even Beijer Tech might look outside Europe, sorry, outside Nordic. So, but very short term, I should say, is more in Beijer Tech, but in one half year, I expect it to be more in the other area.
Okay, thanks.
The next question comes from Carl Ragnerstam from Nordea. Please go ahead.
Hi, it's Carl here. Can you hear me?
Yeah, we hear you, Carl. Yes, we hear you.
Okay, great. Sorry, sorry, I couldn't unmute for some reason. Looking at the EBITDA growth, 15% over cycle, you said 3%-5% organic. If you are a top-line company that is typically generating GDP plus, right? You've done that historically. Don't you think it's a bit prudent to be at just 3%-5% organic on the EBITDA side?
Well, it's over a business cycle, and, you know, we always strive to be above, as you say, but can you tell me what the organic growth or the GDP growth will be next year in Europe? I can tell you where we're going. So it's just an indication that we see that the majority of the growth will come from acquisitions, but of course, we will push the organic growth as well. This is just an indication; it's not an exact figure.
Yeah. So it's not an indication of how you see the drop through on the potential volumes coming?
No. No.
Okay, very good. And also on your new financial targets, obviously, we know it from the Bermuda Triangle, I guess. We've seen other companies implementing similar targets, some successful, some less. So my question is, how will you work with these financial targets to really get them deep into the organization, the subsidiaries, each and every employee? And will you incentivize every manager or potential branch manager on the exact same metrics? Or how will you work with the financial targets to achieve profitability and working capital where you still have quite some upside to?
Yeah, so our intention is to have an incentive program for each MD, managing director of the companies, to improve their targets on each company from where they start. I mean, it's depending on some are in very high level and some are in the lower level, but the intention is to implement it in every company, yes, but on an MD level.
Hmm. And when will that happen, you think?
During spring.
Okay. That is, very clear. Thank you. All from me.
The next question comes from Carl Korsheden from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi again. Just, just, follow up on the financial targets. When you're talking about this 15% over a, over a business cycle, are, are you sort of, expecting to remain your current, dividend policy as well? Or, or do you think you will have to reduce that in order to reach this target? And also, if you could elaborate or, or say anything in terms of, leverage profile. Do you have an internal target on how, how high you can go in terms of net debt to EBITDA, or, or how do you see that?
Yeah. Dividend policy stays as is. There will be no change to the dividend policy. We will stay where we are. When it comes to the gearing and the debt, I mean, we have been prudent on going above two. That's to say, I wouldn't call it an internal target, but the company's been prudent in terms of the leverage. So I think it's fair to say that we are striving to be at the levels around two or slightly above. It's not a gearing story where we will gear it up to four and use the gearing to fund the growth. It's about generating good cash flows in the business and invest them wisely over time. That's what it's about.
Got it. And just a follow-up, maybe... Yeah, you sort of mentioned that your tech might also be acquiring outside the Nordics eventually, but just, when you're speaking about these companies, not just in Springs, but other components as well, or you primarily done targeting companies with their own sort of production capabilities, or can it also be sort of technical trading companies, or do you have any ideal profile for that?
The answer is yes, yes, yes.
Okay, that's helpful. Thank you very much. That was all for me.
As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad. There are no more questions at this time, so I hand the conference back to the speakers for closing comments.
Great, Johnny.
Yeah. Thank you for the interest you showed in us, and, well, unusually many questions. I'm happy for that. I see you in a quarter. So thank you and goodbye.
Bye.