Earnings Call: Q3 2020

Oct 23, 2020

Good morning, everyone, and a warm welcome to Bonnava's presentation of the Q3 2020. Speaking is Luis Cheddar, Head of Investor Relations. And with me today and also presenting the quarter highlights is CEO, Joakim Hallengren and CFO, Anne Sophie Danielsson. After the presentation, we will, as usual, open up for questions. And a short reminder is that you can ask your questions on the web or on the teleconference via the operator. So with this, I will hand over the word to you, Joakim. Thank you very much. Good morning all to the Q3 presentation from us at Bona. So a strong pickup in sold and started units is the headline for the quarter 3. We have been able to hold the level of sold units at a stable level. I will be so dare to say that I actually think it's a very good level, taking into consideration the pandemic that raged across Europe, also affecting partly this quarter. Another important thing is the consumer starts. They are higher in both Germany and Sweden, our main markets. The EBIT margins are slightly lower, but if you take away gains from sale of land, they're actually stronger. It's supported by improved gross margins in 100 units in the projects in Sweden. It's also supporting from the Nordics, slowly but definitely surely improving the performance with Finland in their turnaround phase and they are delivering very well as planned. And what we're seeing this quarter is that they will hand over the last of the poor performing projects. The earnings and the margin is also supported by a lower SG and A. Moving over to year to date, early in the year when we saw the first signs of the pandemic, we decided to play a bit safe. That's an option that we have at Conava. So we decided to focus a bit more on the investor sales. We predicted that the consumer sales would be hard to So we So we have been able to sell and start more units to investor so far. We have a very stable and I would argue very strong and good performance in our sold units or sales to consumers. And we have an historically high sales rate of 81%. 81% of our total portfolio is now safe and sold. The EBIT margin is lower. We have talked about this in the first two quarters because it's those who are mainly affecting the EBIT margin. The Nordics with their low performing well known bad projects and Germany also had some poor performing projects that were finalized in the second and third quarters. We already in the 2nd quarter report communicated that the margins in Germany will improve and that's clear in these numbers and they will continue to improve in the Q4 and coming back to more normal level in 2021. I think it's also fair to point out that the comparison from last year was boosted by a high volume of recognized very high margin units from our St. Petersburg operations. Key figures, starting with the Q3, the net sales is slightly down compared to last year. And as I said, the EBIT excluding items affecting comparability is down 125 compared to 162. However, if you exclude sales of land, the EBIT is €135,000,000 compared to €131,000,000 and the net profit is substantially higher. And then we need to remember that in the Q3 last year, we had an item affecting comparability in terms of a claim, an old claim in our German business that costed us €10,000,000 Looking at the numbers year to date, the net sales is slightly up. The EBIT excluding items affecting comparability is SEK211 compared to SEK509. But a more fair comparison, the one the EBIT comparison without sales of land, land such as SEK221 versus 417. Net profit 93 versus 247. Units in production is down. It's 8,962 compared to 10,301. But we have already early communicated that the planning for starts this year is really back loaded and we expect to start a lot of new units in the Q4. So that difference will change a bit. We will take back some of the difference. The value of sold units, however, is not affected that much. It's only SEK 300,000,000 down SEK 21,900,000,000 compared to SEK 22,200,000,000 and the sales ratio, as I said, an impressive 81%. Looking at the sold and started units, starting with sold units in the quarter to consumers, we were on par with last year. And I think that's a really strong sign from the organization and from the market, which is very well performing in all our business units. Year to date, we're only trailing behind with approximately 75 units, which I think is extremely impressive. Taking into consideration the pandemic, which caused many of Bonawa's market into total lockdown for 6 weeks. Started units, slightly behind Q3 next year, but as I said, we knew already from the beginning and the plans to start units is really back loaded this year. And year to date, we are trailing behind 180 to 190 units compared to last year, mainly affected by the pandemic and the lockdowns that delayed us. It also delayed the building permit process and other kinds of permits from authorities. But again, we will see a lot of new starts coming up now in Q4. Investors, as I said so many times, the distribution is not even. So one should not pay too much attention to an individual quarter. We have sold a few units less this quarter than last year, but the more important figure is the year to date number where we sold substantially more, thanks to an increased focus and a strategic decision to during the pandemics early phases boost this business. This is a table that shows our latest expected assessment of expected completions and sales rates to consumers. I would like to highlight a few changes from the quarterly 2 report. We were a bit cautious in the Q2 when it comes to our ability to finalize projects with the precision that we are used to. And that gave a few more handed over units in Q3 than we expected. And of course, those units are now taking out all the Q4 numbers. So the Q4 numbers this year are lower due to the fact that we recognized them already in Q3 this year. And as you can see on the graph, the distribution for completion next year with the exception of the Q1 is pretty even. So we will not be that back loaded as we are we normally are in 2021 when it comes to consumers. We have been able to start 200 new units that will be that are expected to be completed in 2021. And the backlog for 2022 and beyond is increased with 450 units. So we're building a strong and solid future for Bunaava to be recognized in the future. Looking at the investors, there are not that many shifts. We have been able to recognize a few projects earlier already this quarter than we expected in Q2. Otherwise, the differences between the completions 20212022 is around 80 to 90 units per year. So also here we are building a solid pipeline for the future. And I would like to add that compared to the forecast or estimation done in the Q2, we feel that the visibility now for our projects is much better and we feel more confident in these numbers. We were a bit cautious due to the COVID situation. However, as we now see as a second wave rolling out over Europe, there might be increased uncertainties going ahead. But for time being, the markets remain strong and all our projects are up and running without any major disturbances. So with that introduction, I would like to hand the word over to our CFO, Anne Sophie Donjalson. Thank you very much, Joakim. And I go straight to the income statement that you have here. And I would like to start with net sales here, where you see that we are somewhat down compared to quarter 3 last year. And the reason for that is that we have fewer units recognized for profit handed over to our customers during this quarter. And I will dig a little bit deeper into in what segments this is the case. I also want to point out here that we have a good gross profit on this handed over units, and I will also come back to that where in what segments you can see that. Selling and admin expenses are down, especially if you look for the whole period, EUR 6.19 compared to EUR 6.68, and that is, as Joakim pointed out in the beginning, that today that we have been cautious and looked over our costs and really taken care of all the actions that we are doing, so to reduce the selling and admin expenses as much as we can in this COVID-nineteen situation. So an EBIT of EUR 125,000,000 compared to EUR 162,000,000. But last year, we also had this claim, this settlement in Germany of €10,000,000 or SEK 100,000,000 krona. So if you deduct that and take that into consideration, SEK 125,000,000 compared to SEK 62,000,000. But again, as Joakim stated out, we also have effects coming from sales of land. So if you take that in consideration, we are actually at a higher EBIT this year than last year, also without this item affecting comparability. The third thing that I want to point out here is that we have net financial items on par with last year for the Q3. And that needs an explanation. We have lower net debt. I will come back to that soon and showing you where we are and the cash flow that we've had during this quarter. But net financial items, the same. And the reason the main reason for that is that we've had some costs when we have established new financial possibilities for us. So that is the main reason why we even though we have lower net debt, we are at we have the same net financial items as last year. And after a tax rate of 26% for the period, we are at EUR 72,000,000 compared to EUR 27,000,000 last year. Just to give an overview of the EBIT, where it comes from, where which segments. And there are 2 things I want to point out here, and that is that we have higher better margins in Sweden. I will come back to that soon and show you why that is. And even though Nordic the Nordic segment still have a negative result, if you look at the gross margin coming from the Nordics, we have improvements compared to last year and also compared to the 1st 2 quarters of 2020. And the reason for that is that we now, as Joakim pointed out, see results from the actions that we took last year in Finland and also that the development in Copenhagen is going in the right direction and also a good contribution from Norway. If we then continue, I'm looking at our different segments, starting with Germany then. And the headline here, lower gross margins in handed over units, that is when you compare with last year, as you see here, EBIT margin of 8.9% compared to 12.5%. But a rather small quarter. And one thing that is important to point out here is that if you compare with the first 2 quarters in Germany, where we've had projects that we handed over with quite low margins, We are improving in Germany. And that is also, as Joakim said, what you can expect going forward that you will see we will come back with better margins in Germany going forward to be back on the level almost on the level that we've had previously or previous years. And the 344 units handed over to consumers in this Q3 with this margin, as you see here. And one other thing also I want to point out here that you see here also in Germany that we have reduced selling and admin expenses, thanks to good that we've been cautious with what we are doing and really looking into what we need to do and what we can wait with and what we can avoid. So that has given a result also on this line here, selling and admin expenses. And then what we also want to point out is that we've had good level of started units to consumers. Starts to investors can be more stochastic. So just in this specific quarter, only 48 compared to 232 last year, but that is more stochastic. So the good thing here the good sign here is that we have started many units to consumers, both in the quarter but also for the whole year. And that is also what we want to point out. We see a very good demand for our products in Germany. What you can expect also in the Q4 is that we will continue to start more in Germany. So and also and you also see that when you look at the sold the number of sold units in Germany in the quarter. And that is what we see underlying a very good demand for on the market in Germany. Just to point out what we said many times though, we still see some troubles when it comes to how the authorities are working with the building permits. We still see that we have delays there. That goes both for Bonnava but also for our peers on the German market. So that is still a bottleneck that we see. But otherwise, good demand, good possibilities to start more in Germany. Sweden then, a good project mix in the Q3 here. So that is what you see here, a good gross profit for those units that we've handed over, even though they are fewer in numbers but with good margins, better margins than last year since we have another project mix in Sweden that we've done we've had last year. And also lower selling and admin expenses. So all in all, that has given us a good development in the quarter and an improved EBIT margin if you compare to what we've had 1 year ago. And also in Sweden, as in Germany, we see a good interest for our products. So we have both started and sold at good levels also in Sweden, as in Germany. And again, this is also the case in Sweden as in Germany that we will continue to start more in Sweden since we see a good demand for our housing units also in Sweden. Nordics then, yes, still negative. However, improving from the first and second quarter 2020. So Finland delivers, as we said and as we've planned, that gives result. We've also had a good development a good more positive development in Denmark. Here, I just want to stress here or point out that we have somewhat higher selling and admin expenses. I've said that we've been cautious in all Bonnava. But here, we actually have increased selling and admin expenses. And the reason for that is that we acquired the business in Oslo in the Q4 last year, and that gives us somewhat higher selling and admin expenses in the Nordic segment. And if we look then at the sales and start and started units, I think it's good it's important to say here that we have sold quite well in especially Finland and Denmark. And the positive the very positive thing is that we have sold from stock. So not newly started units, but actually units that were completed and been on our balance sheet. We have sold some of them and that is a very positive sign for us that we can do that good for the cash flow and also good for our activity in Finland and in Denmark. And we've also had good development in Norway with good sales number if we compare with how it was 1 year ago. Finally then, St. Petersburg, Baltics, also good development even though maybe not that high in numbers, but we have handed over more units than last year, and we also have had slightly higher improved gross margins. And so also even though small numbers, but a positive and good development also in this segment. One thing to point out here when it comes to St. Petersburg and the Baltics, we have started in the quarter 3 here somewhat more units than last and also sold some units, but that is for the quarter. But if you look at the whole period, January to September, you see that we are on a quite lower level than last year. And then I just want to point out that we will start more in St. Petersburg during the coming quarters. And since those projects are quite big, many units are starting at the same time. So this can be rather stochastic that when we start the number of unit start ups will when we start the project, the number of started units will be quite high. And that is what we actually have in the pipeline, especially for St. Petersburg then, many good projects that we will be able to start in the coming quarters. Our balance sheet then, we have total assets of SEK 25,000,000,000. And there are some things that I want to say here. One thing is that we have reduced, if you compare to the end of 2019 and also the previous quarters, we have reduced the value of unsold completed units, and that is positive. The other thing is, as Joakim said, we have almost 9,000 units in production. That's a value of a little bit more than €12,000,000,000 but 81% of that is sold. So that's a very strong position, I would say. We are also very close to our financial target of for the equity to assets ratio, 29.4%. Our target is 30%. But since we have high activities during the second and the third quarter, we normally are a little bit lower than 30% at the end of this quarter. So this is also a very strong balance sheet and also very strong ratio for this period. We have also been able to reduce our net debt. As I said when I talked about our financial items, we are down at EUR 5,200,000,000. We've had good cash flow both in the quarter but also for the whole year. I will come back to that soon. But then our capital employed then and the return on that, we have had a low EBIT and that will that has affected the return on the capital employed even though we are we have been able to reduce the capital employed as such. But we still, as you see here, have some things to do to increase the return on the capital employed. So that's a very important target going forward for Bonnava. Good cash flow, as I said, both for the quarter but also for the period. And maybe that is more important to talk about the period. But if I start with the quarter, EUR 8.17 million compared to minus EUR 90 million last year. So a very good development for the cash flow during the Q3. And you could say that, that is because you haven't invested so much in new housing projects. But if you look at the whole period, we are actually on par with last year. So that could be the case, stochastic, that we have this development during a specific quarter. But we have been able to start a lot. And we also have been successful in handling our working capital, very strong for the whole period. If you see here, other changes in working capital. And the main reason for that is that we've had good cash flow coming in from prepayments from our customers. So all in all, a very strong cash flow. So that gives us a good position going forward. As I said, we want to start more, we will start more and we have the financing for that. And that is also when you look at the financing, if you exclude project financing, so this is the picture. We have capabilities of SEK 8,400,000,000. We have used SEK 4,000,000,000 of the Vest. So we still have another SEK 4,300,000,000 to use going forward. So all in all, with this strong balance sheet, the net debt situation and also the financing that we have to be used, Our financial position is strong going forward, giving us the opportunity to start a lot of units since we see that the markets are so strong. So by that, I hand over to you, Joakim, to say some final words regarding this quarter. Thank you, Van Surfi. I think that even this is a quarter with a low volume and small numbers in terms of profit and earnings, I think there are some really important signals here to guide us for the future. Pickup in sold units from a low level spring and early summer, the sales is really strong and we prefer performing really well taking into consideration the COVID situation. There is a good level of starch in Germany and Sweden. The gross margins in Germany is improving. As we said and communicated earlier, they will continue to improve and be more normalized next year. I'm really proud of their hard work in Finland with the turnaround. It's going according to plan. And this quarter, we will see the last of the projects going out of our balance sheet. More started units to be expected going forward. If I should be a bit more specific, we will start at least in line with what we did last year. We have earlier given guidance when it comes to the consumer starts in Germany in a range between 1200 to 1300. I confirm that going forward. And then as Anzofy also so well put it, we have a very strong financial situation with a strong cash flow. We have a debt situation which is on a really favorable level, which gives us at Bonnava very good opportunities for future business. So with that said, I would like to hand the word over to Louise Ketter to moderate the Q and A. Thank you. Thank you, Joakim, and thank you, Anne Sophie. We will now open up for questions. So please, operator? Thank you. So we have the first question from Frederic Thorne from Carnegie. Please go ahead, Frederic. Good morning, Joakim, Alsopet and Wills. A few questions from my side. So thanks for specifying the started unit for Q4, I. E. That you aim to have at least the same number of units that you had in the Q4 of 2019. Going into 2021, you had at the peak, you had almost 3,000 units started in Germany. We're quite far from that level and you acknowledged the problem with still with planning processes. When can we expect a substantial improvement in started unit and closing into those to that level? I think that we have to divide that a bit because I foresee that we will have a challenge keeping up the volumes to investors in Germany. It's not even wanted for us. The competition for land is pretty tough in Germany, which means that if we would keep that volume, we will lose margins because those developing projects for consumers can pay much more. And of course, we will also see a bigger impact of social housing, which is demanded by the authorities. When it comes to consumers, the stores will continue to grow, but there are bottlenecks. We still struggle with building permits. And as I said a few times, unfortunately, the digitalization in German authorities is not on the level that we are used to here in the Nordics. So as soon as there is a lockdown or as soon as there is mobile work, the pace goes down. So the volume is picking up for consumers, 2021 we will see 1 step, but somewhere there in 2022, hopefully, we will have stable volumes into consumers again. Thank you, Ocum. And then moving over to gross margins, they have been improving in Germany and Sweden, but I think they're still far from the level you would aim for going into Q4, considering the mix. Is there anything you want to highlight? Yes. What I can say, what we said, yes, when we have more units to recognize, the margin will be up. And that goes especially for Germany, where we've had fairly well, especially in the first two quarters 2020, a fairly low level when it comes to both gross margin, but also EBIT margin. And you what you can expect is that the margin there will go up, both due to the fact that we have more units to recognize, but also another mix when it comes to what projects we recognize for profit. So you can expect the German margins to come up. And Sweden is not that much in the same as strong as Germany, But you will see improvement also there. So that is what we can say about the margins in Sweden and in Germany. And then my final question on SG and A costs. I understand a few of the reasons for them being in decline. Should we expect this kind of level to be the new normal? Or do you think this is a temporary nature that the costs are declining? Some of it is, of course, of temporary status since, for instance, we haven't started so many initiatives within the administration. Well, it could be anything. But I think I also think that and I think that this goes not only for Bonnava but for many businesses, that this is an cost you will have going forward. So I think some of it will remain on a fairly low level. For instance, travel costs and since I wouldn't say that, that is that has been high cost for Bonaire in the past. But still, we have operations in 8 countries, and it means that we travel quite we have traveled a bit. And thanks to COVID-nineteen, we have been able to use more digitalized ways of working. So of course, that will affect these kind of costs going further. It's not the big thing here. But I see I believe or my perception is that some of it will be cost savings forever. But of course, we need to start up new initiatives also so that we can invest into the future. So that's my overall answer. So you will you can expect somewhat lower, but maybe not as low as it has been during the last 6 months. Thank you for taking my question. Thank you, Frode. Next question, please. So the next question is from Jen Ilsop from Kepler Cheuvreux. Okay. Thanks for that. My first question really regards German and the margins in Germany. You were talking about the normalized margin. Could you please quantify that? Around 12%. Okay. For 2021. We will not reach that, Johan, in 2020. But that is what we have communicated earlier as a normalized No, no, no. My question was really regarding next year. So okay. Great. And also question on margins, when can we expect double digit margins in the Swedish business? That will not happen next year. It will happen in 2022. It's very much volume driven, as you know. Yes, of course. Yes. And what kind of starts are you heading for for next year in Sweden? Could you give any rough figure there? Well, what we said that we want to climb over 5 100 units to consumer starts. This year we are a bit skewed to investors. So we would like to see that at least and then taking it up to 800 and eventually 1,000, 1,200 units in consumers. How fast that will go is very much dependent on zoning, especially in Sweden. As you know, it's a very complicated and a long term process. And this 1,000 units, is the 3 year plan or what horizon? Yes, 2.5 to 3 year plan. I think that's pretty fair. Okay. That's all my questions. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you, Jan. We will take some questions on the web here. And the first question is Simeon Mortensen. How did land sales impact EBIT in Q3? I think you can see that if you look at what numbers we are talking about. We had a small loss in Germany of around €1,000,000 that impacted the EBIT in Germany and also for the whole group. So that was the total effect of sales of land in quarter 3. Yes. And we have another question from Simon, who asks about the if we have can elaborate on the split on unsold units, 467. And what we can say there and what is said in the report as well is that this is mainly related to St. Petersburg and Baltics if you compare year on year. Yes, that's correct. And as I said, we have many the units in St. Petersburg and in the Baltics, they are small. So the value is not that high. So if you look at it all in the world, I would say that it's of low values in those countries, many units but low value. And as I said, what we have been successful successfully been doing during the Q3 is here to sell out some of the more expensive or of higher value units that we've had in Finland and in Denmark. So that has been the positive thing during the Q3. But otherwise, when it comes to if you look at the numbers, we have more your number of units of unsold, they are most frequent in St. Petersburg and the Baltics, where the value per unit is fairly low. Yes. And now we take the next question, please, operator. Operator, please can we have the next The next question comes in so sorry. The next question comes in from Mr. David Flenisch of Nordea. Please go ahead. Thank you. I have a follow-up question on the margins in Germany. You mentioned you have given 12% for 2021 and I guess that was the EBIT margin. But can you elaborate a bit on the split between the consumer segment and investor segment in terms of the gross margins? Yes. Yes, I can do that. And it's not 12.0, it's 12 ish, but that's sort of a normal level that we've been talking about sort of going forward in Germany, not the 13.8, which was really, really good. We would I think that we are expecting to see gross margin. With that, I mean I do mean project margin, right? So project margins somewhere around 18% to 20% going forward. The B2B, the investor margin should hopefully be somewhere around 15%. Some projects will be slightly lower, some will be slightly higher. And that is, I would argue, after many years in the real estate sector, that's really, really good reward for a B2B project where we have earlier indicated a span between 10% to 15%. So somewhere in that range, 18%, 19% on consumer, somewhere around 15% to investors. In Germany. Yes. And you mentioned that you don't expect to see the same volumes in the investor segment in Germany going forward, but the 15% margin seems like a very good reward, as you mentioned, compared with 18% to 20% in the consumer segment. Why don't you want to increase the volume in the investor segment? Downwards on that if we would go out and buy land on this sort of downwards on that if we would go out and buy land on this market. That's why it's not competitive anymore. But that will be finalized in 2023, 2024. So you will see it on stock. Yes. So long term it Long term, there will be a pressure on margins if we stay if we try to keep a high volume in investors in Germany in this hot market. Thanks. And the next question relates to the volumes that you do expect to start in the coming years. I mean, it sounds like it's not reasonable to expect 800, 900 units annually in Germany. But what do you see in 2020, 2021, 2022? What do you expect? With that number, I think you referred to investor sales, right? In stores, yes, investors, yes. Somewhere around 500, I would argue. We've seen a growth in investors for a while now, but $500,000,000 ish. And then it's at the time, it might be $600,000,000 might be $400,000,000 But somewhere there, we will still be able to find reasonable profitability in sort of our cherry picked projects. Great. Thanks. And the next question relates to the gross margins in the Nordics. You did report a positive gross margin in Q3. And if I understand it correctly, the problem projects have now been recognized and are out of the books. What do you see going forward in terms of gross margins in the Nordic segment? What we have said is that in the long run, you should expect double digit, 10% EBIT margin also in the Nordics. That is our objective and well or what we strive for and that is what you should expect also from the Nordics segment in the long run. However, of course, that will take some time to achieve that, but that is the long term expectations for us on the Nordic segment. And for the projects you have in production as of now, is it reasonable to expect a double digit project margin in those, which will, of course, land in a significantly lower EBIT margin due to low volumes? Or Yes. So all in all, I would dare to say that. But of course, that will take some time before you see them in the P and L since we have some time we still have some time to produce them. But that is I would say that the remaining portfolio all in all, there could be some projects with problems. But all in all, most part of the project portfolio in the Nordics where we have low or very low margins are out of the books. Great. That was all of my questions. Thank you. Thank you. We take one last question from Sime Mortensen on the web. How much of starts is planned Q4 versus Q1 and versus Q3? And how fast should we expect starts to jump up in line with the sales? We don't give that kind of forecast when it comes to starch. What we've said is that we will pick up starch in Germany and in Sweden as much as we can during the Q4 if you compare to the first three quarters of 2020. But to forecast exact numbers, it's too early to do that in well, if we should, well, disclose an exact number of the starts. Yes, indeed. And we have communicated that Q4 is a larger quarter than the quarters in the current year. So that says some at least. Yes. Yes. Okay. And we have one more question. Operator, please. Certainly. The final question comes in from Tobias Kansha of ABG. Please go right ahead. Yes. Thank you. I have a follow-up question regarding your guidance for the margin in Germany in Q4. Do you expect that to increase quarter over quarter from the 9%? Or is the guidance year over year compared to the 16% in Q4 last year? It's compared to the 1st 3 quarters of 2020. That is what we guide on. And compared to the margin in the Q4 last year, do you think you can achieve a margin in line with that? Or should we expect a lower level? It was a very good quarter last year. So but let's be back on that because I think it's too early for us to predict and give you an exact margin for the Q4, except that we expect it to be back on fairly good levels also in the Q4 for 2020. Okay. And if I look at your guides for recognized units in coming quarters, it looks like the number of recognized units 2021 will be down 18 percent compared to 2020. Are you able to start projects in Q4 that is completed already in 2021? Or is the current guidance plus the unsold units kind of the maximum level to recognize next year? It will be very hard to finalize anything 2021 that we start in the Q4. However, there is always a possibility that projects might be completed earlier. So we might see 1 or 2 projects slipping into 2021 from 2022, but that's way too early to say. This is the best forecast we can do at this point. But you shouldn't expect any new project to land within 2021 at this time of the year. Okay. Thank you. And one final question regarding your cash flow. You had a very strong development from other changes in working capital both in the Q3 year to date. Do you expect that to continue in Q4? Or is it a risk of a reversal? Reversal. But to keep it up at these high levels is rather tough for us. But you shouldn't expect a reversal. But the to keep it up on these high levels due to high advances from customers could be rather tricky. So don't expect it to be SEK 3,000,000,000 in the Q4, but don't expect it either to be negative SEK 3,000,000,000 in the Q4. So that is what I can say. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So it seems we have no more questions. Again, thank you, and have a very nice day.