Welcome to Carasent Q3 report for 2025. For the first part of the conference call, the participants will be in listen-only mode. During the questions- and- answers session, participants are able to ask questions by dialing Pound key, five on their telephone keypad. Now, I will hand the conference over to CEO Daniel Öhman and CFO Svein Martin Bjørnstad, please go ahead.
Good morning and welcome to our presentation of the third quarter. We will start with me giving a general update, and then Svein Martin will continue with the financial update. First, just a quick overview of the business. As you all know, we are a fast-growing SaaS company focused on healthcare and especially HR systems. We have 16% organic ARR growth in the quarter, more than 90% recurring revenue, and a net revenue retention of 111%. Looking a bit on the highlights of the third quarter, we have really good improvements, I think, and roughly according to plan. I'm especially happy about the EBITDA improvement from - SEK 2.2 million Q3 last year to SEK 12.2 million this year. This is based on continued growth and good cost control, and we just continue to run the business that way.
Looking at WebDoc, in the quarter when we were working on the price models and also implementing a new CRM system, we were not totally happy with the old one. We identified a few customers that we invoiced the wrong way and that we have corrected. It's a hit of roughly SEK 1 million in the quarter, and on an annualized basis, it will hit us roughly by SEK 2 million each year. It's never fun to take a step down in the recurring revenue, but what's more important for us is good long-term customer relations and good reputation that we continue to sell on. It's a one-time hit, but all is good with those customers now. We're in a good place with them, and that's the most important part.
What I find really fun at this point in time is that we have very many long development projects that are now reaching the market, and I'll come back to that on the next slide. Looking now at Q4, it will be really important that we succeed with two implementation projects. The first one is EvolvAt. I think you all are aware of that, but that's Capio Norway, where we're implementing a methodical for all their hospitals replacing six different present HR systems. It's a very big exercise, and most of those users are planned to go online in the end of November. That will be a big project, and when that happens, we will start getting the recurring revenue from those users, and we'll also be able to invoice some consultancy work.
That will be important to get online in time, and also that will allow us to start working with other projects and other customers for that product. The other part that needs to be implemented in Q4, or we want to implement in Q4, is within data , so our German business, where every second year, roughly, in the German market, there's an upgrade to the security system related to government infrastructure. This gives us, every second year, roughly SEK 4 million of revenue, but it also has COGS related to that of SEK 3 million, roughly. We think that will happen, and we will get that done in Q4. With both these projects, the risk we have is a delay of those revenues. We'll never miss the revenues. For example, with data, then it will probably be in Q1 next year.
You don't want to lace in your revenues, and it's also important to be able to continue working on the next project. We really want to get that done in Q4. When we look at growth, Sign Not Implement ARR now amounts to SEK 12 million. Most of the SEK 17 million of Sign Not Implemented ARR we had a year ago has now been implemented. We've had a lot of new customers or new contracts, so that's why it's at SEK 12 million again. I think we have really good, exciting discussions with potential customers that should get that number up a bit again. We have 16% organic ARR growth in the quarter and 13% reported organic growth. Looking a little bit about what we're developing, these are the projects that we capitalize. The largest one is in Germany. We believe strongly in the German market.
As you all know, everyone is working, or almost everyone is working, in systems from the 1990s. It's time for them to do the same as the rest of Europe has done, to go into the cloud. There are no hurdles anymore for that in the German market, and we're developing a really good solution for that market. We have now spent five years on that. In total, we spent SEK 87 million, and this year we spent SEK 9 million on that solution. That's WebDocX. Now we're entering the pilot stage, and we'll start commercial rollout end of this year, early next year, depending a bit on the feedback, and then start replacing one of our two present German products in the market, and then continue replacing the other product. The next project is the surgery. That's in Sweden to have a surgery module connected to WebDoc.
That means that we open up new segments. We have now pain customers. We have both pilots and paying customers at the same time in that product and are now outselling and meeting new potential customers for that product and doing a lot online for that also. Next in line is MedSum, where we spent SEK 3 million this year. It's a project that we've been working on for a couple of years, but we didn't capitalize it before. We have been kind of playing around with the technology for a while and seeing what we can do. This year we decided to really make a push for it. We spent SEK 3 million on that so far. That's the AI-powered ambient listening. We record the conversation between the doctor and patient and make a proposal for a medical note, saving a lot of time for the doctors.
We are now at commercial rollout, and the first commercial contracts are live. Next in line is one we haven't spoken that much about. It's NLL. That's a new structure for prescription of medicine in Sweden. All HR systems that want to be able to prescribe medicine have to develop new functionalities. This is something we're required to do. It's not a choice we do. What's really good with it is two things. The first one is that it will give all of our customers a really good overview of what happens at other clinics, both in the public and the private sectors. Everyone will have a much better visibility of what other doctors and, yeah, most of the doctors have done and what they prescribe. That will make it easier to move to our system and not being in a public system. I think that's really good.
The second thing is that we're built in in such a way that we take away a lot of the work from our customers. Most other solutions and competing solutions have put a lot of their security work on the customer, meaning they have to take on a lot of new costs and they have to do a lot of work, which they are not happy about. I think that will be a commercial advantage for us. That's also why it's on this list, because we will invoice the customers for some of that work we're doing. Not huge amounts, but some. Next in line is Advoca. That's our solution for patient interactions in Norway. It has been in development for a very long time. We spent first SEK 7 million on it in total, SEK 6 million this year.
That's a solution for the therapist, doctor, physiotherapist, nurse, whoever's working on the healthcare side to work in the exact same system as the patient. You have a joint calendar, you give tasks to each other, you talk to each other, and so on. It's a really well-liked solution. It's already part of the commercial rollout in Norway, and it's the basis for many of the contracts we won there the last year, and also the basis for the contracts that I hope we will win there in the near future. Finally, we have HPI. That's Health Profile Institute. That's one of our dot companies and one of the ecosystem's products where we have built a lot of new functionality the last couple of years, quite many years, total spending SEK 35 million on a new platform.
That platform allows both the occupational healthcare provider, the worker at the company, and the company to be in the same platform and to work with a lot of those tests that you need to do for certain types of roles. That's part of the rollout in HPI. There we really have limited investments going forward. It's now where it should be, that product, and we'll not invest as much in that going forward. It's really exciting to have all these new parts of Carasent that are being rolled out. This is much more than what we usually have that's being finalized. I also want to caution everyone that in healthcare, things don't move that quickly. Healthcare professions are careful in nature. It's a slow-moving industry, so it will not happen overnight. This will drive growth for many years to come, but it will not be a quick win.
For example, me and some sellers are outselling. We have a meeting with a really big potential customer within surgery next week. If we're really good in that first meeting, we will have discussions for maybe half a year, nine months, then sign a contract. They will have to prepare the implementation and so on, and revenues will come in one and a half years, maybe. It's that type of a little bit larger players. That's just an example. This will drive growth for a long time, but it will not be a quick change overnight. Looking ahead, we spoke about growth. That's obviously important. We continue to grow. We use our resources efficiently with good cost control. Always prioritize what we do, comparing different projects, opportunities, roles against each other, and make sure that we keep costs under control and do what adds the most value.
Further, to launch WebDocX, we have this huge German market where we think we can play a really good role. With those words, I will hand over to Svein Martin.
Thank you, Daniel. Starting off with some of our important metrics, we had a good improvement in this quarter, both on the recurring revenue side and profitability. We ended the quarter with an ARR of SEK 335 million, including the signed contracts. The ARR grew 27% and 16% organically. Profitability also improved quite a lot, basically as a result of the revenue growth and cost control. Looking at the ARR bridge, you can see that the growth remains quite balanced. We had a net upsell of 14%.
It's worth repeating here that when we sign new clinics for existing customers, such as, for example, Capio or Aleris, then it's included in the net upsell, and it's an important part of the net upsell as well. Churn was SEK 9 million or 3%, and new customers were 5%. These new customers, many of them are small upstarts, etc., that grow with us. Even though the figure is not that large, it's a really important growth driver for us to keep that figure as high as possible for the long term because they, again, drive the net revenue retention rate in the coming years.
What is good to see is that even though we had these growth issues in WebDoc this year and a bit higher churn, it's good to see that we have been able to maintain net retention at 111% and also growth at 16%, which is quite decent compared to what we have done historically. The reason for this is mainly that the SEK 17 million you see there in the backlog we had last year, most of that has been implemented and is contributing to different parts of these buckets in the growth this year. Looking at the P&L, we changed our revenue reporting split this quarter. The reason for it is to better show our business model and also to better reflect how we follow the revenues internally and to make a better understanding of the fluctuations in the revenue from quarter to quarter.
You see we had a good growth on the subscription side. For the transaction-based revenues, these are these tick-based services that, for example, patient communication or these tests for Health Profile Institute, etc. There we changed some customer contracts to be more subscription-based. That is why the growth of that is a bit more slow in this quarter. If you look at the total organic growth, 13%, it's quite low. That is because the consulting revenue was very low in this quarter. There are two reasons for this. Firstly, that in general, we have, during the last year or two, really prioritized recurring revenues over consulting. We have taken a short-term hit for long-term gain. The second part is that the consulting is more lumpy in nature. When we finalize these projects that Daniel talked about, we will have some big consulting revenues.
For Q4 to reach our targets there, it will be very important to deliver on these projects in time, basically. It's good to see that even though we had low consulting, the profitability improved quite a lot. EBITDA margins of 29% with no adjustments this quarter or year to date. If you look at the adjusted last year, it was 19%. That was only adjusted for the relisting and the acquisition in Germany last year. EBITDA improved from a -SEK 2.2 million-SEK 12.2 million. The next slide here is one we have shown the last few quarters, and it's a really important metric for us. It's how we convert the profits to, sorry, convert the revenues to profits. You see here that if we exclude the detail, the acquisition we did, revenues grew around SEK 8 million. COGS increased SEK 1 million.
We only increased the other part of the cost base by SEK 0.5 million. We were able to convert SEK 6.3 million of the growth into EBITDA. That's around 82%, which is, yeah, close to the gross profit that we have and pretty much in line with what we aim for. If we include the one-offs from last year, the improvement is 154%. I think this slide is a good illustration of how we think about the scalability of our business. To explain the graph a bit, if you look at the yellow line there at the top, that's the LTM revenue of the group. You see that it's gone from SEK 245 million Q4 of 2023 to SEK 329 million this quarter, growth of around SEK 75 million. If you see the gray part on the top of the bars, that's the COGS. It's naturally increasing a bit with the revenues.
The light blue part, that's the cash cost base of the data out, basically, the acquisition that we did. The remaining part, the dark blue, that's basically the OpEx, CapEx, and personnel expense, the entire cash cost base of the organic part of the business. What is good about this part is that it's entirely under our own control. We decide if we want to hire people. We decide if we want to take on more OpEx, etc. You see that the total here has been quite flat during the period, around SEK 230 million-SEK 235 million. This is including wage increases and inflation, etc. We have actually been able to, if we adjust for that, decrease costs in many places.
This is the main reason why we have seen the margin expansion we have, and keeping this under control is a key focus for us going forward because if we do that, margins will continue to scale, basically. Finally, looking at the cash flow, it was a bit affected by the working capital this quarter, which is typically the case in Q3 because of the holiday effects. It's worth mentioning as well on the profitability side that Q3 is generally a very good quarter on the profitability side because of holiday effects, so the cost is lower. As I have talked about previously in the year-to-date figures as well, we had these big relisting costs at the beginning of the year that we paid in Q1, and the costs were in Q4. That's why the working capital is so weak this year.
Q4 will be a strong quarter for the working capital where we have some large invoices of annual contracts, etc. You see that we spent around SEK 70 million on the share buyback program where we bought back a little more than 3% of the shares in the company. We still have a strong cash balance of around SEK 170 million at the end of the quarter. With that, we can open up for questions.
If you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key six on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Fredrik Nilsson from Redeye. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Good morning, Daniel and Svein Martin.
Morning.
Good morning.
I want to start with a question regarding Region Stockholm. A few quarters ago, you increased your efforts to raise awareness in that region for WebDoc. Could you give us an update about those efforts? Are they gaining any traction?
Yes, I think so. Most customers we sign are in Stockholm. We are pushing that as much as we can. Most new contracts are there, but I think over time we should do much better. As we've spoken previously about, the best-selling channel for us is happy customers talking to other customers. It's quite a small business where everyone knows everyone and you're quite helpful to each other. You discuss things with each other. The caregivers do that. That's why it's important to get more and more users in Stockholm. More and more talk about WebDoc because most users still in Stockholm have never seen it. They might see ads for it now, but they have never seen the product or know anyone who uses it. It's important to continue to push there. We have in the quarter taken further steps when it comes to sales also.
We separated the role somewhat within WebDoc for sales. We have customer success managers taking care of present customers and pushing the salespeople more out doing cold calls and so on. I really look forward to the results of those efforts.
Okay, great. I noticed that you now are reporting the gross revenue retention as well as the churn. I guess looking at the numbers that it's fair to assume that the vast majority is churn and that the downgrades are very limited.
Yes, that's correct.
Okay, great. Regarding MedSum, as far as I understand, it's now in a commercial rollout, as you mentioned. Could you give us an update on the feedback and what kinds of clinics are most open to this solution in this early phase?
Yes, I think the ones who are the most open are the ones who use similar products today. That makes kind of sense because you have those early adopters. Most of those use it, also have used competing solutions before or are using both at the moment. That gives us a really good comparison and good feedback. What we've learned, I would say, is that it works really well when you do not have too complex node structures. Some users have really complex, and it's not certain specialties, just some users want the really complex node structures. It gets a bit harder. Since for us, it's completely built into the solution, we have tested to start without really working with the customer. The competitors who are not integrated with our solutions and don't have access to the same information need to have upstarts meetings. We haven't had that.
We've learned that we need to have it because, for example, if you talk to a patient, if a physiotherapist talks to a patient and says, "Does it hurt now?" it's very difficult for the ambient listening to know what you have actually done. You need to say, "Now I'm touching your right knee and bending it. How does it feel?" Then we get the good medical notes. We need to do more work with upstarts. I think that's the learning. We will sell it a bit differently going forward than we've done so far. This is all part of the learning process and quite natural, I think.
Okay, great. Just for clarification, you mentioned that you lost about SEK 2 million in ARR due to the overpayments. Is that accounted for totally in the ARR in this quarter?
In this quarter, we have some repayments. In total, the hit is larger in the quarter than it will be in the normalized quarter going forward. That's where we had some repayments. The lowered fee, we're not totally there, but we had repayments in total. Yeah.
It is included in the ARR.
Yeah.
Okay, I see. If it was for that overpayment that you found, it should be SEK 2 million higher approximately in the quarter. Is that the correct interpretation?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great. Last question from me. You touched upon the surgical module. The lead times are long, as you mentioned, but are you starting to see some deals getting close to a potential close? How far are you still from getting some kind of signing?
Yeah, we have some signed contracts. We have some projects now to get customers online or implementation projects. It always takes some time because you have to work through the workflow with the clinic. How are they working to set it up properly? Also, they need to be educated on how it works. What we're also doing at the same time is selling much more of our online functionality. We don't want to sell just the surgical module. We also want to sell that different types of information go to the patient at different times around the surgery. For example, the most common problem if you're running a surgical clinic is patients not showing up or patients who have not prepared the right way and so on. With our communication structures, we can make sure that all that works really well. Then we have to set it up.
For example, for this procedure, we send out this information two days in advance and this information half a day in advance or an hour before and so on. It takes some time, all those implementation projects. It's not a technical issue. It's all about working with the customer, setting up everything in a good way, and for them to have time to really implement it. I think we have great interest. We're trying to find exactly the right price level also to have. We did the project mostly to expand our market, but we can also charge more in total when we have such a product. That's part of what we're looking at. I think we're in a good place with the product, and it will drive growth for a long time, but you will never see a quick change in growth because of it.
It's not the nature of this sector.
Great. Thank you very much. That's all for me.
Thanks, Fredrik.
The next question comes from Elvin from Rolder. Please go ahead.
Good morning, Daniel and Svein Martin. I hope you are well. A couple of questions from my side as well. Perhaps beginning with the age-old question of Germany, could you give us some highlights on what has been the feedback so far and what you expect, perhaps given the initial launch here by the end of the year, perhaps beginning of next year, and what you expect for the full 2026 and 2027 so we can get a bit of a sense on the trajectory in Germany?
Yeah, I think we have a really good pace in the project now. We've had that for quite some time, so I'm happy about that. I think that, as we've talked about before, next year and the near term, we will never see that you grow customer by customer and you have to learn how to sell. You have to learn how to implement. That's why we did the acquisition to really shorten that time. For a new product, you have to do that. It will not be a quick growth next year where all of a sudden our revenues will increase a lot. The most important part next year is that we have the customers we take online are really happy with the product and that they will start telling that story to other customers.
When we talk to a potential customer, we can say, "Talk to this customer," and we can have testimonials and so on. Also, for us to feel that, "Okay, this product is really where it should be," or, "Do we need to do something more?" That's what I'm really expecting for next year, that we will have really happy, satisfied customers in the product that will enable us to really gain markets going forward. We will also invest somewhat in Germany. It's all in our plans and the numbers. Even though we keep costs flat, we are moving costs between different parts of the group, but we'll invest quite a lot more in sales and marketing in Germany during next year.
Okay, perfect. Thank you. Perhaps related to the last portion of that, cost investments in Germany and the scalability bridge you showed here in the presentation, given that your new financial targets that you presented in Q2, I believe you give yourself a bit more like kind of a headroom to grow costs somewhat the coming years. How should one think about the durability of the current cost mass going into 2026 and onwards? Are you confident that that will be sufficient now and that perhaps you have given yourself a bit of headroom in a couple of years forward, or how should one think overall about costs?
I think those targets are the ones that are our targets and what an external anyone looking at the company should look at. It does give us headroom, as you say, and more headroom than we plan for. There is headroom for things not going exactly as we plan in those numbers. Usually, there are also things happening. I think as an external, those are the targets we have. We hope to beat them. I think those are reasonable targets to look at. That's true. It gives some extra headroom compared to where we've been. I think it's important to invest a little bit extra in sales and marketing in Germany, for example. We will not go crazy with costs. We have no such plans at all. We are very careful with adding any staff anywhere.
Okay, perfect. Perhaps a bit on the working capital side, you mentioned Q3 obviously is usually a weaker quarter for working capital. Is it primarily that coupled with the repayments for the WebDoc clients that have a bit of overbuild, or is there anything else behind the drag on working capital in Q3 that we should be aware of?
Yeah, there are these effects that you mentioned for the year. It's the relisting. It's around SEK 15 million that we paid this year. In the quarter, we have had some customers where the invoicing has been delayed a bit. That will mean we will have a big invoice for a large customer in Q4, which is why I mentioned that Q4 will be a bit strong as well, a bit stronger. That's the main reasons, I would say.
Okay, great. Thank you. The final question from me here, if we think about the margin for Q4 a bit, because you mentioned as well that Q3 usually is a seasonally strong quarter due to the vacations for the margin. In Q4, you will also have, if all things go to plan, the EvolvAt implementation, which I believe will be accretive to the margin on a like-for-like basis. How should one think about the margin on a sequential basis? Is it fair to assume that it will be at a similar level to Q3, or in general, how should one think about that given the effects that will happen in Q4 if not anything else happens, as you say?
Yeah, it's a good question. In general, the margins for Q3, as you say, is the strongest during the year. You see that what is implied in the targets we have posted is a strong Q4. For that to happen, we really need to succeed and get these payments on the consulting side in time, basically. Yeah, that's the most important part to reach those targets.
Okay, perfect. I think that was all for me. Thank you for a good presentation and for answering my questions. I'll get back in line.
Thank you.
Thank you.
As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please dial Pound key, five on your telephone keypad. There are no more phone questions at this time. I hand the conference back to the speakers for any written questions or closing comments.
Okay, we have a few questions here in the chat. The first one is on working capital, which I think we answered. The next one is, what are your plans regarding price increases going forward?
Yeah, so I think we're increasing prices on average a bit higher than inflation. That's roughly where we are, a couple of percentage points higher. It's different in different contracts. Some public contracts or large customer contracts do not allow us to do it fully or just not at all or partly during the time. Especially public contracts can be like that, that they set the entire contract and then you have to just put in your price. When you put in the price, you take into account that you will not be able to raise prices for a couple of years. On average, I would say we're a bit higher than inflation. The most important reason in prices is to explain it to customers in a good way. Our costs are quite a small part of the customer's revenue.
It's the number that, I mean, the percentage point that we raise prices at, which might sometimes cause a bit of that the customer is a bit annoyed. The most important part when raising prices is to really explain why we need to increase prices, the small regulation and so on. In general, a couple of percentage points higher than inflation, I would say.
Great. Next one is churn in the quarter back to normal. The LTM figure is still kinked upwards by Adobus and the web-based clients churning in Q1. Yes, I would say so. The churn we had in Q3 was quite limited and in line with what we have seen in previous years. The main part of this SEK 9 million or 3% that we show is basically related to this churn we saw in the beginning of the year. Next one, last quarter, you won a public client in VGR. Is there any comment you could give about the potential in this region in the public space? I guess maybe you are talking about Mea Tankin, which is a private provider, but it's still in VGR.
Yeah. In VGR we still have a bit dampened. There are many customers who want to change to WebDoc, I would say, in VGR still. We had the customer Mea Tankin that did do it now, and we have some other discussions that I think might go that way. Not of the same size as Mea Tankin, but still good contracts. It's not a fast-moving business, and if there is some insecurity on the horizon, as there is in VGR, you are a bit extra slow. It's always easier to not do anything than to do something. Given the nature of this industry, we really need to push them, and we need to explain to them, and we need to show them it is not very hard. It's not that difficult. That's my experience when I was on the caregiver side.
You were a bit afraid of changing HR systems, but when you did it, if you did it to a good system, the staff was happy, and you hardly saw any effects in the P&L for the change. It didn't really cost you very much. Thereafter, it's a positive. That's the story we want to tell and what we're pushing. You have news like Millennial, where everyone feels, "Oh, it's really difficult to change the system." That's just if you do it wrong. We need to continue to push that, do testimonials on it, and then we continue to move. There's nothing really that should be holding them back, as I see it.
Great. Next one, how high are the prices for the German clients now? When you compare to WebDoc in Sweden, will this change once you move them to WebDocX? How do you approach pricing while shifting them to a new system?
In general, German doctor has quite a lot more revenue than Swedish doctor per doctor. They see more patients and they are better paid. The prices in Germany for doctors are a bit higher than Sweden. For therapists, I would say it's maybe a bit lower than Sweden in general. It's difficult to just say we like-for-like. What we'll do is when you move from on-premise to cloud, we have seen in the past that we can roughly double the revenue on that customer. That's what we're looking for. The most important is to move the customers over and to really have that happening. Both in Norway and Sweden, where we moved customers from on-premise to cloud, we have been able to roughly double the revenue. That's also because the customer can get rid of a lot of old costs that they don't need anymore.
In general, the prices are a little bit higher in Germany. I think that's a good basis.
Okay, next one, how much is the EvolvAt project affecting the missing revenue? Or how much where you could have used the personnel for other revenues instead?
Yeah, I would like to explain a bit. We basically, all the staff in the Methodica product is focused on the EvolvAt side. This is the only part of the business where we normally charge for consultancy, development, etc. In a normal year, before the EvolvAt project, we had around SEK 10 million in consultancy revenues in that business area. This year, it will be, if we succeed in Q4 with having these implementations, it will be SEK 3- SEK 4 million less than 2023. We have a bigger staff. I mean, after that project, we have a potential to increase the revenue again. On the other hand, we are more recurring revenue and product-focused. That is an important use of the staff time as well.
We will have a big swing in the profitability in that business area after the project is done because we get the recurring revenues from the contract when it's live. Also, we can generate more consultancy revenues as well. In general, we are giving large rebates and really lowering costs of implementation work and similar things. Instead, we are trying to have a higher price level on the systems on a yearly basis or a monthly basis, depending on the structure of the contract. These do hurt us short term. It's the same with this EvolvAt. It's just in a bigger scale than most smaller customers. In general, that's where we're moving towards. When you take away one krona in consultancy revenue, you don't get one krona extra ARR. You get maybe like € 30. Over time, that gives us a much better position.
We're really trying to move that way. That's the second reason for doing that. That's because we want to have really low hurdles to moving into our products. Having a big upfront cost is not a good thing if you want customers to change to your systems. We're moving in that direction a lot and we'll continue to do so.
Next one, on WebDoc, your predecessor often talked about WebDoc being the go-to HR system when starting a new clinic in VGR. Has this started to be the case also in Stockholm, or do they still prefer TakeCare?
It is not the case in Stockholm yet. In Stockholm, everyone knows TakeCare. That's where the system, almost all of them already is working in. Many of them still don't really know that it can take another system, that there is another good system or a much better system there. We really need to continue to work that. The customers that use WebDoc in Stockholm are really happy, and there are so many advantages of using WebDoc compared to TakeCare. Those advantages will increase over time. TakeCare is a system that will close down roughly 2030. It is a limited amount of development going on there also, so the difference will increase over time, but it's already there. What we have to do is to just get the word out there much more. We need to continue working those customers. We're doing a lot of events.
We're doing a lot of marketing. If you sit on a clinic that has TakeCare today, you see a lot of ads when you're surfing on the web, for example, for WebDoc. We're doing as much as we can. Still, when you're starting a new clinic, if you don't think very much, then the easy choice is just to go with TakeCare because that's what you're used to. We really need to continue pushing that narrative. That's why it's important to take each customer, and each customer then talks to another couple of customers, and then we continue to grow. I think we're doing good inroads, and we'll continue to make them. The advantage we have will only increase over time.
Okay. The final question we have received is, could you talk about what you see in terms of efficiency improvements in development thanks to AI?
Yeah, I think that's a really exciting topic. There are quite big things. I mean, most of our costs are development of our products. We have AI improvements also in other areas, but I think that's what these models are really good at is helping you to write code or writing code themselves. We're implementing it and have implemented it for quite some time in most of our products. You get efficiency gains of, I think, at the moment, it's difficult to exactly measure. I think we're at like around 50%- 60%, which is a lot. I also think that what this will lead to is that all products are moving faster. I don't think it can be used to save a lot of costs. I think it's more that we will develop our products much, much faster going forward.
That's what happens with present big leaps in efficiency gains, you just get better products, you get more products, and so on. I think it's the same with this. We do not plan to use those gains in lowering costs. We're planning to use it in our products moving faster because standing still when it gets cheaper to develop is not a good option, I think. It does require us to do many things quite differently. We need to continue developing our processes and so on to make sure that we use the efficiency we can gain from AI as much as possible. What part that holds us back somewhat is that our systems are really mission-critical for our customers. If our customers cannot access their system, if there's a problem with the systems, they cannot work. We need 100% uptime. We have 24/7 surveillance on our systems.
We have people on standby fixing the systems at any point during the day and night and the weekend. We cannot have the AI producing a lot of code that we really don't have an overview of. We have to do it with quality. That's the limitation we have. Apart from that, we have to use it as much as possible and as efficiently as we can.
Okay, that was the final one.
I would like to thank you all for listening this morning. If you have any questions, just reach out to us. Thank you so much.
Thank you.