Earnings Call: Q3 2024

Oct 25, 2024

Welcome to yet another quarterly presentation by technology enabled care company Carium. Let me introduce CEO, Christian Wallen and newly appointed CFO, David Geran Aart. Welcome, guys. Thank you. Thank you. So after the presentation, there will be a Q and A with joining Equity Analysts. And viewers can also ask their questions in the live chat, and I will pick them up along the way. So David, could you please give a short introduction about yourself? Absolutely. Yeah. My name is David Granath. I joined Carium in August. And prior to that, I was CFO at Polarium and Clear Group. And I also worked at Duston in Applied Value before that. Okay. And what is your first impression of the company? I mean, my first month at Carium have been really exciting, and I'm very grateful for this opportunity. I'm impressed by Carium, and I'm impressed by the passionate employees. And it's an opportunity to join Karim in this exciting phase of the company's journey. I agree. And Christian, we are all ears to listen to the result of the quarter and your presentations. Please go ahead. Absolutely. Thank you. So warm welcome then to this section of the presentation. We can open up with the next slide here to get the highlights in focus. Oh, I'm supposed to do that myself. Thank you, Matthias. So first off, I think as a company with really high ambitions in terms of where we see ourselves being and where we set our targets for performance, I think we can conclude that the Q3 of 2024 in relation to sales was not a result that we wanted. Rather the opposite, while this is in many ways, as you will see throughout the presentation, driven by the infrastructure delays, you can all rest assured that this is our highest priority going forward into the Q4 and the close of the year. Now if there is a silver lining to this for the highlights, I think what is really impressive is that we've actually sustained quite high profitability levels in spite of these challenges to the top line. And I believe it speaks a lot about the solid foundation of our business that we have attained. So more on a positive note in terms of what occurred in this quarter, we launched the Eye Care Center. And what is this? Well, to us, it is a transformative innovation. This is an IoT platform tailored to our industry, alarms, data from peripheral technologies and so on, all coming together and being made a lot more meaningful. This is something we've been working on for many, many years and we're super proud to be able to announce it in this quarter. Also in addition to our first customer, a German company called MD Medikus. They currently care for 60,000 seniors all over Germany. Compare that to Carium, we have about 340,000 that we directly care for. So this is a large player in the German market and we are extremely proud that they have chosen our platform as their technology platform for the upcoming years in servicing and caring for these seniors. So this will be a huge part of Carium's future. We will build a lot of our value around this, of course, and we also see it generating about $10,000,000 in savings when it's fully rolled out across our own operation. Last but not least, we have also opened our commercial office in Spain, and we've been in Spain for a few years. Some of our technology teams are based out of Madrid, but we are now relaunching our commercial efforts. Spain is a fantastic market for technology enabled care, close to 50,000,000 people living there in the 65 plus age range, which is the sort of target for us. Around 11% already have access to these technologies. Compared that to Sweden, that number is around 9%. So it's actually a little bit more advanced. So we are super pleased to have industry veteran Beatrice Rodriguez de Lope, long time sales executive in our industry to head up that office. So with the highlights out of the way, we move to sales and gross margin for 2024 Q3. Right. Get my notes here. There we go. In the Q3 of 2024, sales amounted SEK 201 point 7,000,000 compared to same period last year where it was at SEK 217.3 million. So this is a decline of 7.2 percent. If you adjust for the currency effect, it's actually SEK 7.9 percent. So the main driver behind this decline is the product sales due to infrastructure delays in U. K. And Sweden. The service sales, however, amounted to 164.3 percent, up from 158.9 percent in the comparable quarter of 2023 percent. This is an increase of 3.1 percent. For product sales, we delivered 37,400,000 quarter compared to 54,900,000 in the Q3 of 'twenty 3. This is a decrease of 35.6 percent and this is very much driven by 2 gs and 3 gs being delayed for an additional year in Sweden, impacting both product sales and tender opportunities and the same story in the U. K. But for analog. The gross margin ended up at 42.8, down from 43.5. Percent. It was, of course, somewhat impacted by the product mix effects and so on when we compare it to last year. So moving over to our markets and starting out in the Nordics. The business saw sales grow about 0.5% compared to the Q3 of 'twenty 3. However, service sales actually grew 7.4% compared to that same period due to majorly contract implementations and wins in Sweden. The main decline was seen in product sales where you could see a decrease of 60%. So this is the full weight of the impact from the announcements made in the middle of the second quarter. For the Nordics, the gross margin remained at similar levels. In the U. K, our in terms of volume, big market, sales decreased 18.9% in the Q3 of 'twenty four compared to 'twenty three. Service sales amounted to $45,900,000 down from $50,300,000 in the same period of last year. This is a decline of 8.9%. However, we've been telling this story of how we are transitioning out of unprofitable contracts and so on, which is very much true. At the same time, for the Q4 in a row, our service sales in the U. K. Are actually growing. So the whole plan of transitioning out of bad contracts, bad customer agreements and onto more profitable ones because we see this growth happening at the same time as profitability is increasing in our U. K. Operations. So we are sort of tracking our own idea for how to turn the U. K. Into a really well functioning unit that is well in sync with the U. K. Actually being perhaps the best market for technology enabled care all over Europe. Now, the product sales, of course, down 33.2% compared to the same period of last year, and this is very much driven by the delay in the switchover from analog to digital. And while sources are a bit unclear, there is no governmental data or anything that is fully fact checked, so to speak. The estimate is that as of right now in the U. K. For this population, these types of technologies, around 40% of the market is assumed to have transitioned to digital solutions. So that means 60% of the installed base is still on analog equipment. And here we think our expectation is in due course this tide will turn. We have a new government there which has been quite clear on that this is actually a focus area as part of their social care initiatives. So we remain confident that over time things will change. Gross margin declined slightly in the Q3 of 'twenty four and the main reason for that was temporary field service costs. With that, we'll head over to the Netherlands. So the Netherlands delivered a steady and consistent good growth of 13.8% for the Q4 of 'twenty four compared to same period 'twenty 3. Sales were driven both by organic growth and also new customers onboarding into our operation. We've enjoyed very healthy growth for a long time in the Netherlands and it just proves that our operation is very well set to meet customer demands. Gross margin in the quarter was 59.6%, which is a slight uptick compared to the same period of last year where it was at 54.8%. But as I have commented on previously, all our markets work slightly differently. So this is not a transferable setup with these gross margin levels to other markets. It is unique to the Netherlands and costs are taken at the OpEx level. So for other markets, we actually including then now Spain, of course, but we have not seen so much action as of yet there in terms of just setting up the commercial office, so predominantly DACH and France. We actually saw sales decrease 15.5% compared to the same period of last year. However, this was not related to any infrastructure delays. But if you look to the first half of the year, you will see that these markets have really performed exceptionally and the year to date growth at the end of this quarter is 60%, actually a bit over that. So we expect things to pick up in the Q4. When markets are a little bit smaller in our industry, you get more variance throughout the year. So really positive about seeing the Spanish office in place. We expect it to contribute both through the growth and the profitability during 2025. Gross margin for other markets was set as 61.5% compared to 50 point 6% in 2023, same period, and this is mainly due to product mix. And with our markets out of the way, I am extremely pleased to hand over to David, our CFO, and to take us through the profitability and cash flow. So I will do you the honors for you here. Thank you, Christian. And now an update on the profitability for the quarter. EBITDA amounted to SEK 34,300,000 compared to SEK 44,100,000 for the same period last year, giving an EBITDA margin of 17% compared to the 20.2% last year. Despite the weak sales impacting EBITDA margins negatively, we managed to maintain profitability on healthy levels. Gross margin nearly kept on the same level as last year. And as Christian mentioned earlier, our efficient operations can endure variations in sales. EBIT was $16,500,000 in the 3rd quarter compared to $20,700,000 last year. During the quarter, we launched the eye care center. And with that, we also see an increase in depreciation somewhat impacting EBIT margin development quarter on quarter. And with that, moving on to cash flow. Cash flow from current activities in the Q3 of 2024 amounted to CHF 13,600,000 compared to CHF 1,600,000 for the same period in 2023. Working capital tie up in the quarter was $16,200,000 driven by increased inventory levels following lower than expected product sales and delivery of rental equipment. Free cash flow was $3,300,000 and over the past year we have accumulated $56,000,000 of free cash flow. Cash totaled to $29,000,000 at the end of the quarter and in addition the bank overdraft facility had unutilized amount of $39,000,000 resulting in available cash of SEK 68,000,000 enough to continue to grow our business. And finally, net debt amounted to SEK 180,000,000 at the end of the quarter compared to a net debt of SEK228,000,000 last year, a reduction of nearly SEK50 1,000,000. And with that, I hand over to Christian for summary and conclusions. Thank you, David. And also fantastic to have you as part of this presentation. As we concluded in the report released this morning, we not only got David on board, but the quarter also saw us recruiting our new CTO to start following the quarter. So we are really, really happy to see such great talent joining the Karyum journey. So thank you, David. So concluding remarks for the Q3 2024. Number 1, as mentioned, we are a very competitive and very ambitious team. We are not happy with our sales development for this quarter. However, silver lining being to David's point that in a way it is also something that shows that we have a very solid and stable core operation that can absorb these levels of variations predominantly related to hardware. The launch of the Eye Care Center is truly perhaps our biggest innovation. We have a long history of a company of releasing what is now the gold standard for alarm receiving protocols, the 1st digital care phones and so on and now we launched the ICC or Eye Care Center. This is transformative not just because it opens up to sector specific IoT platform and all the value that comes out of that, but it is also a new revenue stream for us. So we have can have platform sales in a different way and we can also bundle it together with our offerings. This is really something that strengthens both the internal side in terms of efficiency and cost saving, but also something we offer to the market that we are extremely happy about. And last but not least, I think opening up the Spanish commercial office with proper staffing, it's a great move, fantastic market, we need to be there. We've been there for many years. We have a lot of industry competence predominantly on the technology side, but we also need to sort of sharpen the saw in terms of our commercial operations. So that's good. The main challenge, of course, is this full weight of these transitions. In a way, we need to work twice as hard to try and generate as much sales as possible because there is a slowdown in the sales. We are very much doing that, but it is a tough work and we are consistently doing it on a daily basis. This also translates to our number one priority. It is to focus on the sales activities both in the tender side and also in the direct sales, more in the B2B channels where our sales staff are working very, very hard to perform as well as we can. And the second big priority for the quarter ahead is, of course, continuous development and transition of end users for the ICC, both to generate the savings, build a stronger platform and also to take more customers on board as this technology is now open to all prospective European customers. So in closing and relation to the guidance, we expect to deliver our stated guidance range of 5% to 10% of growth for the full year and the EBIT range of 7.5% to 10%. And with that, we conclude the presentation and open to questions. Thank you so much. Yes, it's Q and A time. And there are a lot of questions from the viewers and from myself, I think. And but we will start off with the questions from Oskar Roingqvist of ABG Sundal Collier. Please, Oskar, go ahead with your questions. Thank you very much and good day. So I think I'll just start a little bit on the guidance into Q4, more on the sort of visibility side. So the delays are obviously weighing quite hard at the moment, especially on product sales. So do you have any sort of comments on how we should think about the normalization timing? Any color on the tender activity? And also quite a broad range going into Q4? Any color on the timing and visibility? Well, I mean, our ambition since we have revised the guidance a couple of weeks back, we have, of course, put a lot of work and effort into trying to create the most transparent and best way of guiding the market. And when we say that we expect to deliver onto the ranges that we have stated, then that is what we aim to do. And we do see that, as you can conclude, we have decent growth in the service segment. This is also, to some extent, impacted by the transitions because the urgency might be going down a little bit, but we're still very, very competitive. It is mainly on the product side and are there are no shortcuts. I mean, we need to work extremely hard. We have added additional resources, put new processes in place, new tracking and so on to make sure that we are delivering as well as can be even in the markets that are impacted by these transitions. I mean, at the end of the day, we are not the company where we see that, okay, so we have some headwinds right now, let's wait them out. We try to run prices fast. And that always takes a little bit of time and you need to double the effort and that is what we're doing and thus we are retaining the guidance. All right. Can just follow-up on the cost control, it seemed quite good in the quarter and noticed that admin costs keep falling sharply. So have you done, I mean, the complete of your restructuring now? Or could we expect that as a new bottom? Or do we expect that keeping to fall? Or any color on that, please? Well, I mean, we always try to be more efficient, but we also need to invest in our future growth, right, to be able to accommodate and manage it in a smart way. So I would not provide any other sort of comments outside of the stated range in relation to profitability. We aim to deliver along those lines and that means that we will need to keep our cost control in check. I think we are. However, there is some if we look to the future, I mean, if you're a technology company, you need to make sure that you have great talent and great development across your technology offering. So that is maybe where I see that we should be investing more. I don't see us growing administrative expenses in any crazy way, then we probably need to double the size. Right. Perfect. Thank you. Just some color also on the Spanish outlook. So what types of contracts do you see likely in this region? Will it sort of mirror the U. K. Contracts, B2B concentrated, B2G or more sort of private pay? And also, if you have any color on the timing of the effect in 2025, can we expect that to contribute already early 'twenty five? Or is that going to be sort of more tilted towards the latter part? No. Very good question, Oscar. Thank you for that. So the Spanish market is a combination of a very, very strong public sector, but it is served by a lot of private entities. So you have your tendering akin to the Nordics directly to the public, the regions of Spain predominantly, and you also have the partnerships with those that bid on those contracts. And these contracts in Spain come in many different forms and sizes from quite small ones that we could probably engage with ourselves without too much effort and worry. And the biggest contracts in all of Europe, which are the Madrid and Barcelona hardware related contracts and also platform and some software. So Spain kind of has it all. It is one of the most developed telecare sectors and it's also very different compared to many other markets that tend to be a bit more reactive. So you respond to needs from the seniors, whereas in Spain, 2 thirds of the operator activity is actually proactive. So it's outbound. So they kind of reverse the whole thing. I think it's quite impressive actually and it's really important for us to also be in a market that is a little bit on the forefront, same with the U. K. On technical innovation. So there's tons of values for us to be in that and adapt and design our offering to be competitive because we can transfer that to other markets. So just to answer your question clearly, the predominant side of the Spanish market around your 60%, 70% of all volume, that is tendered business. Now that is very rarely sole sourced. It's usually an installer coming together with an hardware provider and so on. So we can be a part of that with good partnerships and the remainder of the market is more straight up B2B focused on hardware and software. We don't think that we will see immediate effects in 2025 due to the tender based nature of the market. However, the talent that we have put in place is I think you'd struggle to find such a strong individual as Beatrice that we've managed to take on board for to lead these efforts. 12 years as a sales executive in this industry extremely successful. So hopefully, we'll be able to close the 25 with a very positive outlook on what we've achieved. But I don't think it will happen in January, so to speak. Understood. Thank you very much. Just had some questions also on the gross margin. I think it looked quite healthy in the quarter, quite stable quarter over quarter and also year over year. It was affected by both the U. K, I mean, the higher service sales. And also, I mean if you could talk a little bit about the mix here and also I mean given the decent underlying development for the total company, I mean have you optimized the gross margin and can this expand going forward? And just as a sort of a follow-up, the eye care center SEK 10,000,000 support, is that coming through to the gross margin? Or is that more OpEx related? David, do you want to take a stab at this one? No. But I think I agree with what you're commenting. I mean, the gross margin is on a healthy level. It's almost the same as last year. We see some mix effects both in terms of regions and in terms of product sales. So of course, we keep on working with it, but it's I don't see any very much potential, but we keep improving as we go. On the eye care center that is OpEx related. I had to think a little bit. Yes, it's OpEx related. And as we transition customers into our own platform, it will continuously show on the OpEx side. Not it will start to show a little bit in 2025, but it will also be a transition over time. But I think to your question also, Oscar, do we feel happy that we will be set at this gross margin level for years years to come? I definitely think there are things we can do. Some of them is about being technologically smarter. Some might be in relation to negotiating contracts with sub suppliers for certain things. And above all, it is how much can we drive down prices on hardware, thanks to bigger volumes and slight retrofitting, kitting, new versions and so on. So that is a huge part of the COGS side, so to speak. So there are a bunch of levers that we can pull. We're pretty occupied with the ones where we see maybe the most immediate value, but it takes a bit of time. If you take something like adapting one of our core units to use a different component set, you need to do that quite carefully and with a lot of testing before you can sort of take it to the market. So the lead times on some of these bigger tickets, it's actually quite long. Understood. Appreciate the color. Also, I had some just on the unprofitable contracts in the U. K. Should decline a little bit and you're restructuring the U. K. Contract portfolio. So can you just talk a little bit more about this, how we should think about the balance between the connections and the actual sales here and when you estimate the restructuring will be done and take effect? That's a very, very good question. So I think I'm going to be very transparent to all those viewing here. I mean, we were sat on some pretty big and pretty horrible contracts. For anyone who has followed us for some time, you could see the some of that was due to not running the operation in a good way, which we fixed. But behind that was also that you had a contract base there. For many, many years, the task for this business had been to secure as many connections as possible. That was like the main KPI for how the U. K. Was driven in 'nineteen, 'twenty, 'twenty one and so on. And of course, that came at very little regard to profitability. So some of these contracts in the U. K, they are, as you know, of a fixed length, so you can transition out of them and sort of pull the contract. But what you rather need to do is try and renegotiate, not extend per the customers' wish because they are in a very fortunate situation, of course, getting great service for next to nothing. We are talking as little as 12 to 20p per senior month, which does nowhere near cover the cost of service delivery. Of course, there's a scale effect here, but at the end of the day, it's pretty awful. So what we have done is that now we are growing the sales in an organic manner, doing so quarter on quarter, bit by bit to try and sort of compensate this out. How long time will it take? Hard to say. It depends a bit on every negotiation. Can we push the customer to perhaps let us exit earlier? Can we renegotiate because we both see eye to eye on the situation not being sustainable? Is this a major problem that we're spending tons of time on? No. We've got a pretty good at this. So this is BAU for us. I will not give you a time estimate, but I can be very clear on that we are having decent stability in the service portfolio growth in U. K. And while we don't showcase it so clearly since we don't report local EBIT, we can quite clearly say that we are now running a profitable operation and that is the most important part. Perfect. Thank you. Just a final one, if that's okay. Just the you noticed the contract with the Oslo municipality. So the full range contract increased in annual value. So what part of the offering are they now receiving that is sort of the full range? And is it a better mix for gross margins here as well with the full range? Or are you seeing any sort of cost pressures due to the sort of nature of the contract? And also is this a key element for you going forward to try to sign more full range contracts or is this more sort of a one off related? Well, I think it's important of course, this happened after the period. So it was part of the significant events. We quite clearly stated it because we thought it was fairly material since it was so big. So when we talk about the full range contract, what we mean is that it features a lot of services. So the Oslo model that we are servicing, it is actually unique in Europe in the sense that there is a completely unbroken chain of data alarms, what have you, leading to operator activity, leading to that same operator who might often be a qualified nurse to basically take the elevator down to the garage, go out in a car, packed with equipment and solving whatever situation is at hand. So this is a pretty unique model that Oslo has implemented and had for many years. So our new contract actually features a slight extension of the scope, but it's more of a better compensation of how that contract has kind of grown over time to take all of that together in a more manageable SLA and so on. So we are extremely proud of getting the trust to keep delivering in this unique model. If you look at public sources, you will see that the 2nd biggest contract of this nature also found in Norway is currently up for tendering in Askrenbarum, which is a municipality adjacent to Oslo. So this is a pretty Norwegian thing to put it that way, but we are very happy that we are possibly the only company able to fulfill it in a good way. So when we talk about full range, it's more about that it features a lot of services. Now going back to that particular contract, this is, of course, a very beneficial contract for us, but we also think that it reflects the value that Oslo receives. And thus, the price increase for similar level scope was probably quite merited. Understood. Thank you very much. That was all the questions I had today. Thank you so much, Oskar Lohengqvist of ABG Sundal Collier. And let me raise a question from a viewer regarding the, let me say, ICC. Let's start off with, do you see a catch up effect in product sales in the coming quarters? And can you say that something about sales and margin trajectory for the Eye Care Center ICC? Good. I think in answer to the catch up effect, of course, with Love 1 that would be great. I think maybe the best way of looking at it is what happened when these delays were announced. So when we were stood here presenting the Q4 of 'twenty three, Early October, we just had the first delay. And we said that product related sales in U. K. Are down 50%. That's the effect that was very immediate. When the additional delays were introduced, it was not another 50% drop, it was a little bit less than that. So my belief is that the reasonable view of it is not ketchup effect, but rather a steady return to normalized levels. That is also what we saw and communicated during the Q1 when the uncertainty of how long the prolongation of analog would be. When it was clarified that it was just 1 more year, then sales reverted back to normalized levels and then of course came additional extensions, so to speak. So no, I don't think it will be a catch up effect. It will be a steady return to normalization. And on the other part of the ICC, I mean, one of the great aspects of why we have launched it is that we are eating our own dog food. We are transitioning every single user onto this platform. This takes time, not because we can't technically do it, because we need the customers who have these seniors in their care to agree to all the changes that it means and so on. And this is different market by market. There are some functionalities that the certain market might be gated towards and so on. But at the end of the day, we will need this platform because it services us and allow us to be better at our service delivery. We think, as we can see in the case of MD Americas, that there are many others that will see that too. Most of the market in Europe is using third party platform providers, we have as well, because the offering from the more fully integrated entities like us and some of our competitors, they have simply not been up to standard. And here we have just launched what we believe is an extraordinary IoT platform built for this industry. We're not building it for competing with Securitas or any other company like some of these platform pure play platform companies are forced to do because the market isn't big enough, but for us it's great. So we think that if we can confidently say, we're the 3rd biggest company in the business in Europe and we're 100% in on this, you can probably gain a lot from this also. So this means that our margins to serve a customer, it's actually pretty small because the main saving we get ourselves. The internal cost cases basically over time when fully migrated, it's a net positive for us in terms of run rates. So adding any customers on top, you would see your SaaS margins, if you will. And we also have the opportunity to bundle it together with our hardware and other services. Thank you. Another question on the ICC. What's the revenue potential with the Eye Care Center, for example, with MD Medicus, the client? So we won't disclose any particular contract agreements or anything, but we feel pretty happy about the revenue to be generated. We think the market for these types of solutions in our niche in Europe, it's of course not SEK 20,000,000,000 opportunity. So it is smaller, but the margins are extremely good due to us replacing other technologies that we're sourcing from someone else. So for us, it's more of a maybe a margin play, a growth play. It won't make massive waves on the top line, but we think it's very, very good top line additions when you look further down into the when you look further down into the income statement. When it comes to the tender in Berum, could you say anything about the size on that one? Well, size remains to be seen. We are it is an extremely complex standard. It features everything from this previously mentioned Oslo service model delivery to AI consulting services. So obviously, this is a little bit out of our depth. So we are partnering with others, of course. But I think the interesting part of the contract is that it is a 12 year contract, which is quite uncommon. We don't see that that often. So we are together with partners and an active partner in this, of course. And the model in Norway is very pragmatic in terms of how they work with the tender processes. In Sweden, you hand in your papers and then you wait for a week and see what happens, Whereas in Norway, you do multiple rounds of negotiation to really make sure that the customer, the municipality gets the best possible partner. So we expect to know where that one lands in week 48, I think. And could you elaborate a bit on your current or existing larger contracts that is up for renewal within 2024, 2025? That's a very, very good question. So Oslo is by far our biggest contract. There's a sole source kind of contract and it's actually 2 contracts in 1. It's 1 for the hardware and 1 for the service delivery and software. That's how it's set up. So as it stands, we have a policy where we don't communicate on material contract wins unless they exceed a certain threshold. So for those that have been following us, you will know that we communicated the Leeds hardware tender in U. K. About the time around this time last year, I think, because that one was an annual value of I think SEK 22,000,000 per the contract SEK, which reached that threshold. Norway is the same. So we expect to fully comply with both the potential risks of contracts leaving us or contracts coming into us. I mean, our Swedish organization, as you could see from the service sales growth, they won tons of contracts throughout the year, but we don't communicate on any of those because each and every contract is not that big. So in that regard, the answer to the question is that when we deem it material, we will of course communicate it going both directions, so to speak. And here's another question from a viewer. It says, in 2023, there was SEK 60,000,000 of depreciation of intangibles from the customer registersdistribution agreements. SEK 9,000,000 remained for 2024. Is this now fully depreciated, so that reported profit will go up? I will turn to you, David, on this specific Can you repeat that again? Yes. In 2023, there was SEK 60,000,000 of depreciation of intangibles from customer registersdistribution agreements. SEK 9,000,000 remained for 2024. Is this now fully depreciated, so that reported profit will go up? Sorry, I'm not 100% sure what's in the 2023 numbers. I have to get back to that question because I don't have it by heart. If we can get the viewer info, we will try to Yes. So let's say like this, ask your questions to the IR e mail address, and you will answer it there. And I actually think it's time to wrap this whole broadcast up for today. And thank you so much, Christian and David, for joining us here today. Thank you, Matthias. Pleasure. And thank you for viewing and meet up in 3 months for the full year report. Let's see you then.