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Earnings Call: Q3 2017

Oct 20, 2017

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Good morning and welcome to this conference call on Castellum's third quarter report, hosted by Henrik Saxborn, CEO of Castellum, and Ulrika Danielsson, CFO. My name is Inga-Lill Östman, and I'm the Corporate Communications Director at Castellum. We will start with a presentation of the results, followed by a question-and-answer session. By that, I hand over to you, Henrik.

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

Thank you. Hello everyone. It's a beautiful morning in Stockholm today. We're sitting here looking out on, on the roofs. We will present the Q3 report then, and it's not a strong report from Castellum. If you look at the next slide, you will see the what its contents of. We will go through the report, of course, go through the markets, the projects, and we will also look into what we're doing in the future on the Next 20, for example. To summarize it quickly and look on the next slide, we will see that we show continued strong leasing activity and net leasing. We will also provide you with some new examples on the project and another growth on the project line.

And we will, of course, look into the growth in the cash flow, that we had an increase of 6% even though we had some sales of the old Norrporten portfolio that gave some effects on that. So it's a strong report going forward. And by that, I hand over on the next slide then to Ulrika.

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

Yes. And then if we look into the P&L account, we can say that the third quarter of 2017, Castellum achieved a growth of 5% in income from property management and 6% for the whole period. And then we have to remember that last year, the third quarter was the first quarter that had a full impact of the Norrporten acquisition, and after that quarter, we sold properties for a total of SEK 7 billion, which, of course, have had an impact on this year's cash flow. So if we put that one aside and look into the portfolio, we can see that what has created the growth so far is rental growth, a like-for-like of 3%, of which roughly 1% is an impact of renegotiation made.

We have lowered direct property costs of 8%, but that is, however, a little bit mitigated, you could say, by an increase in admin costs. The last one is due to that we made acquisitions last year of stores and Norrporten, then we had administration from buying that. Those two companies, of course, as we said in Q1, this will successfully be lower going forward into next year since staff is leaving during this year. And then, of course, the average interest rate is 30 basis points lower compared to last year. If we also look into the occupancy rate, you can see it's almost the same as one year ago, despite really strong net leasing. Why is it so?

And then we have to remember that in 2014 and 2015, we had notices for termination that we then said would hit the P&L this year, and it has done. Those parts have now been leased out, but the cash flow is coming a bit later. So what you can see is that the occupancy rate has been stronger and stronger this year. So this quarter is better than the last, the first half year. Below the income from property management, we will have changes in value in the property portfolio, with roughly 3% this year. However, the third quarter is a bit lesser, you could say, from a volume point of view. And that is made to that our good cash flow, strong cash flow, maybe is not fully into the valuation, and we do have a quarter left of this year, you could say.

So if we go to the next page, we can summarize our balance sheet in a way that you could say it's strong. It has an LTV of 49%. And then we have to remember that we made the second part of, of the payment of, of our dividend in the end of September. And we do have a net growth this, on a 12-month basis, this part dividend of our share of 50, 50% in growth. So?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

If we go to the next slide, we will look at the market a little bit and the rental market. You can say that, as we said for a long time, we live in a fantastic strong rental market, and it consists of, if you're looking into Stockholm, more especially, we can say that we have now top rents on SEK 9,000 a sq m and year. Earlier, we have stated that we think they will come. Now, they definitely see them coming in the market for the top rents. If you look at our part of the portfolio in CBD Stockholm, we are now going to market with the vacant spaces at Torsgatan, very close to the center station, at SEK 5,500 a sq m.

and then if you look at the renegotiation volume here and you've taken that into the P&L, like Ulrika was talking about, you can see the figures forward to this year, that will be Q4 2018, is that we're renegotiating approximately 33% of what's possible to do. So if I take you through the numbers, you can say that turning to if we have SEK 2 billion in rental value, we have, except the vacancies, SEK 1.7 billion. Then it's possible to renegotiate for, technically, SEK 180 million this year. 33% of them is on market conditions or our offices, correctly said, that we will renegotiate during 2017. That's SEK 60 million. This SEK 60 million, we have an uplift of 19%. So the figure you see of 19% is strong, but the base that we can renegotiate is less.

So it only gives us SEK 11 million in that respect. And I think that is important when we're looking at the projects when we're going forward, that the net leasing is the most, of course, important for us, even if it's in strong markets. And we will be affected in the long term and have a if this market continues like this, which I think it will, I think we're gonna have the next coming years ongoing renegotiation renegotiations in Stockholm that's gonna be on a larger base, simply. Looking at the same figures for, for Gothenburg, we are now experience that the old top levels in the CBD for two years ago of SEK 2,000 a sq m is now, now something that exists in the second ring in Gothenburg on the office side.

So we can see that we're leasing out for +SEK 2,000/sq m south and north of the town, and that, of course, gives us opportunity to create new buildings in these areas. If you're looking at the absolute CBD, yes, it's +SEK 3,000, and it's a normal level now. The problem is, of course, that it's the lack of new spaces in Gothenburg. If you're looking at the same figures like we did in Stockholm, the short version is in Gothenburg and Borås, we are it's possible for us to renegotiate the rents upward around 30%, but this is on a base of only a small amount, so that will only give us SEK a few million in effect next coming year. Even in Gothenburg, the project is extremely important for the growth of the cash flow.

Going south, we look at the market of Malmö and then Copenhagen. If we start with these two towns, what's changed is different from Stockholm and Gothenburg is that it's possible to find new projects or new project possibilities that will, of course, in the long term have an effect for these markets. But that said, we experience positive trends in both Malmö as well as in Copenhagen during the in the market situations, the rental market, simply. Between there, it's a lot of towns. We have a strong rental market in the middle part of Sweden, and we have low vacancy rates and stable to extremely positive rental values. On the logistics side, I think we could stop for two seconds in Stockholm, and there we can see today that we're gonna look at one project that we start north Stockholm.

Here, we have stable to positive rents around a little bit less than SEK 1,000 a sq m. The rent is SEK 900-SEK 950 a sq m and year. On the smaller assets for areas like Veddesta, for the ones who know Stockholm well, the rents for logistics assets today is at SEK 1,300 or SEK 1,400 and year. And for three years ago, there was less than SEK 1,000. Give you some examples. So to summarize this, we are experiencing it's a extremely strong market. It's a market that in Gothenburg and especially Stockholm and Gothenburg, we have problems with not too much new space, simply. So the new production volumes still are just 1% of the office stock, and what we can see in the future, the next coming years, it's don't gonna get up much more than that.

So, I can't see anything else than we're gonna have a continued strong rental market. If we look at the real estate, no, if we look at the net leasing then, Ulrika, on the next slide.

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

Yes. And then if we go to the Castellum Universe, you could say that the good rental market that Henrik talked about is shown in Castellum in a very steep curve, and that is due to really good net leasing made by the organization of new leases of SEK 460 million. And then, of course, notice the termination of roughly SEK 200 million. So that all in gives a net of SEK 251 million. And, what is delightful to see is that this strong net leasing is not only made in investments but also from existing portfolio. And then if we go to the next page, we can look into how this is divided in our regions. And we can see that all region is doing well.

Of course, the northern part, that is a smaller part, is lesser, but on the other hand, they have a rather high occupancy rate. So the region that is going very excellent is the central part, and the leader in that region is Örebro and Uppsala that we have made really good net leasing, so far this year.

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

So if we then go to the property market, you can see that even this is a strong market. You can, if you look at the figures on the next slide, we see that even though the volume of the market has gone down during this quarter compared with last year, it's not about less interest. We experience we have a lot of interest for the Swedish market and especially then volume. So portfolios and high-quality offices and all things with volume has extremely good interest, but the problem is maybe that it's not so much coming out to the market. That's why we can see this change in the market, so to say.

So this what we see on the value thing that we're coming into now is, of course, the effect of the strong cash flow and expected strong cash flow, on the yields. But so simply, it's a strong interest for the market still, and we have a lot of international interest going forward. Shall we take the next slide?

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

Yes. And then on the next slide, we try to show you what has created the value each quarter this year so far and how is that compounded and weighted. What you can see here is, of course, the first quarter, the changes in value due to transaction, mainly Hagastaden in Stockholm, made a bigger part, but after that, the cash flow, and the project gains have started to be a bigger part of the changes in value. You can see that the valuation yield was uplifted this quarter, but that is due to that really strong cash flow, as I said before, is not really into the valuation, so.

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

So if we take the next slide, we're going into the project portfolio, and we have some pictures on the next one that we can go to directly. Here you see some ongoing projects. The ongoing projects are now we started 2 new ones during this quarter. We started the car service and offices south of Stockholm where it's rented out for 40%. We started then logistics assets north of Stockholm. And on the logistics side, we have the last years invested in building rights that we now can produce on north of Stockholm, and that's gonna be extremely interesting to see the effects on that, and, of course, the rents coming out of it. If you look at the total volume of projects, we have a pipeline ongoing projects for SEK 4.5 billion.

The large ones is existing giving SEK 3.7 billion in volume. The upcoming pipeline is SEK 4.5 billion approximately, and we're calculating with that it's possible to increase this during the years. But looking at the existing one, we can say that we still are about 7% yield on all costs on these projects. So it's a extremely interesting investment. On top of that, as you can see in the report, the occupancy rate is high on these projects. So, we simply want to create more building rights and develop more new projects. And therefore, if you look at the next page, you can see some examples then. We have two in Stockholm, one that we talked about when we bought it. It's in Swedish called Stockholm Vatten, the Stockholm Water.

the backside of that, we expect to build another 8,000 sq m very close to the central station in Stockholm. We're right now renovating or investing in the existing asset. It's 100% vacant and are on leasing right now. On top of this picture, you can see the assets we have. One of the assets we have the Meatpacking District. Here, the plan process is ongoing, and hopefully, we will see the next coming 18 months that we develop something on the plan processes there in Stockholm. Closer in time, we will have the one in Gothenburg you see in the picture. It's a new building that we would like to start. It's under discussions with the municipality about the building rights. And hopefully, that will be sold during 2018, and after that, we can start the projects.

And the last one example here you see is, the one I've shown many times. It's Uppsala, and we have still that rented out for approximately 30% that, is waiting for permission to start this, and hopefully, that will be sold during the start of 2018 with the municipality. So as you see, it is a lot of planning processes and building rights processes, and so the growth is there. The interest on the tenants is there. And during the next coming year, I hope that we will sell all these projects that we see, and that, of course, we will benefit from in the pay pipeline.

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

Then on, if we go to the funding part and then go to the next slide, a way to summarize the feeling in the debt part of the capital market is by saying that the access to funding is good. We do have stable bank lending, a good amount from the bond market, and an excellent amount from the CP market. This is the feeling we have had this year so far. The margins in the bond market have had a tendency this year to tighten, which also to tighten in general, you could say, which also has been positive for Castellum. The access to volume in the bond market has been very good so far, especially for shorter duration such as two-three years.

But Castellum has, however, been successful in attracting capital in the segment of five-six years and even some small volume up to seven years. And the price construction is a mix of floating and fixed in this market. And then, the CP market is excellent, and there you also see some downward trends, of course. So on the next page, you can say how has Castellum acted in this market. On the bank side, we have renegotiated roughly SEK 13 billion in bank loans. We have terminated roughly SEK 1 billion, and we got a new lender, EIB, on an euro loan. So that means that we have roughly SEK 35 billion in bonds in bank frames or credit frames, you could say. Of which we have used SEK 16 billion.

Then, if you go to the bond market, we have issued this year SEK 6.3 billion in new bonds, of which SEK 450 million is after the end of September. We have expired SEK 1.6 billion, and the duration, as I said before, is two-seven years, and it's a combination of fixed and floating. We have a total frame of SEK 15 billion, and we have today outstanding roughly SEK 40 billion. And then we have a CP program with a frame of SEK 8 billion, and that has been fully utilized all this year. So, on the next page, you can see that we do have a strong funding situation, a strong balance sheet, as I said before, an LTV of 49% and an interest cover ratio of 396%, and a duration that from a Swedish and the Castellum point of view is rather stable.

This is a good base and a stable base to stand on going forward.

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

But we don't only if you look at this next slide, we don't only build economic results and a good base for 2018 on the short term. We also look at other values, and we have worked for a long time with sustainability, and now for the last year, digitalization. We call this digitalization lab for next 20. So this year and this quarter, if you look at the next slide, we got a lot of prizes, you can say. We got the leading star in GRESB for our sector and projects, and I'm very happy with that. But of course, most important is that we still are the only real estate and construction company in the Nordics that is part of Dow Jones Sustainability Index.

But going forward, if you look at the next slide, I think it's important to have strong goals and objectives, and we have decided that we're gonna be the digital leader in the Nordics in our sector, and we have set a year for that, 2020. And we have had a lab up for more than 12 months now, and it has given us a lot of ideas, and we've taken three of them and are right now testing it into the market. And it's all about human daily life as well as creating new business ideas simply that's gonna give more value to our customers. So I'm gonna show you some examples. The next slide, you can see something that we call Handly. For you that lives outside Sweden, you haven't heard or seen, of course, the Amazon boxes.

This is more or less a small Amazon box that we will have in the entrances of our houses, and that is possible that you get your delivery into your office instead of getting it home. That's a big logistic problem in Sweden right now. These are now tested in Stockholm and Gothenburg, and hopefully, we will start this in a wider spread geographic area during 2018. The next startup we're working with is on next page. It's called Beambox. It's simply that we're using the inefficiency in see some sectors. It's, of course, that we looked into how can we use our vacant space as well as use lorries that are not used during night and so on in the bigger towns. Therefore, we created something that is a storage, self-storage, but it's a service that you get at home.

It's working with digitalization apps and so on that you can also see and sell and take care of what you have. So this is a service that we test on 50 families in Stockholm right now, and hopefully, that's something we will launch during next year in wider spread areas, but. So we're simply working on creating more values for our shareholders and are having a strong base for 2018. Thereby, I think we will start with some questions.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Yes. We are ready to take questions, and either over the phone or you can also send mails. I have one question already, but I think we open up for questions on the line to start with. Please state your name and company, and please, if possible, only one question at a time. So please go ahead.

Operator

Okay. So ladies and gentlemen, if you do have a question for the speakers, please press 01 on your telephone keypad now. And we have a question from the line of Niclas Höglund from Nordea. Please go ahead. Your line is now open.

Niclas Höglund
Senior Analyst, Nordea

Yes. Good morning, from Nordea. Okay. Let's start with, I think what people are sort of, when we look at the report this morning, we said that yields are increasing while we've been seeing the other companies actually nudging down their yields over the week. Could you just elaborate on if because of the rounding, a little bit difficult to see in the exact number here, but if we were to keep your yield requirements at the same level as in the second quarter, what kind of impact would that have on your EPRA valuation, ceteris paribus, taking only the possible cash flows into account?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

You can, if we start with answering the question about what's behind this, the simple answer is cash flow growth that we're not picking up in the valuation. And it's in some way of cautiousness. I think that we are well known for that in Castellum. And of course, if you take the numbers then, if you look into that, it will be of course then 10 basis points out of 5.8, more or less. So it's something around 1.5%, something like that. So around SEK 300 million, if you're calculating that correctly, quickly here.

Niclas Höglund
Senior Analyst, Nordea

Okay. And then if I may have some other questions. You were talking about solid growth from your projects and keeping your and that you see that you have a construction yield still on 7% and there are opportunities to accelerate your investments into next year. What if those unit properties were to be filled, what would be the average yield requirement in the market for the kind of project that you have right now in the portfolio?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

We shifted, I think, from historically generally about 150 basis points to more or less, if I've been simplistic, I'd say 200 basis points over the project volume today.

Niclas Höglund
Senior Analyst, Nordea

Okay. Thank you.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Thank you, Niclas. Next question, please, then.

Operator

Next question comes from the line of Tobias Kaj from ABG. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Tobias Kaj
Equity Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Mm-hmm. Yes. Thank you. I would like to start regarding the strong net leasing year to date when you look into Q4. Do you expect high activity to continue, or do you see any signs of a slowdown?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

From our estate right now, I can't see a slowdown. It's all about supply right now, actually. It's that we are able to keep up the good pace or increase it on the product side. It's gonna be important as well as to keep up the good work with the existing portfolio that has been shown the last quarter. So my view is positive, and it's actually based on that growth I see in the bigger cities where we are located. We can see we had a big fantastic start in Copenhagen. We have a good market there, especially Stockholm is developing well. And Gothenburg, we are running a little bit lack of building right down there right now. But don't forget every Jönköping, Örebro, that has been a fantastic net leasing for us during 2017. So it's not about one town.

So I'm positive. And if any worries you should look at, it's just that the supply of building rights in the town. So I'm positive on the net leasing for two to the next coming 6-12 months.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Thank you, Tobias. Next question, please.

Operator

Next question comes from the line of Robert Woerdeman from Kempen & Co. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

Good morning. This is Robert Woerdeman. You stepped up the pace of disposals in 2015 and, and, and definitely in 2016. You have done some fine-tuning during 2017. What, what, what are your plans on the longer run? So let's say 2018, 2019. What, what, what can we expect, that you shave off, let's say, the bottom 5% of the portfolio, to constantly improve the quality of the portfolio, or are you satisfied with the portfolio where it is and that you continue to look forward and, and grow the, the portfolio?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

I think that we will do everything, Robert. I think it's important.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

That's what.

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

To create, create, create value through working with the portfolio. I think that's extremely important. Looking at investment opportunities, both small and big ones, and of course, try to find as much interesting project as possible. So the answer is continue working with the portfolio, and see if we have inefficient parts of it that will, of course, be resold, disposed sold. And we will, at the same time, try to increase the density on the spots we are.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

Okay. And then, perhaps more precisely, what part of your portfolio, in your view, is inefficient? So could you please introduce yourself?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

No. I think it's not a simple geographic answer to that. I think it's a piece-by-piece answer, where you should pick the ones that are single there that we have done everything we can with. So I should say it's more a piece-by-piece pick.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

Okay. So you feel happy with all the exposure to the geographical areas that you have in Sweden right now?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

Yes. I mean, we have fantastic growth in Stockholm and Gothenburg, and we have, out of European view, fantastic growth in the rest of our towns. So yes. We're happy where we stand right now.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

Okay. That's great. Then in part of the answer you gave, you said, "Well, looking at small investment opportunities but also big ones." Are there any large portfolios that you currently look at, and large being SEK 5 billion plus?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

I should say like this. Sweden is fantastic in that sense. You know, we have a transaction volume over SEK 140 billion, and we are always looking at opportunity.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

Okay.

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

Okay.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

That's all clear. Then with respect to some commentary I had in your press release, new supply being added to the market in Stockholm and Gothenburg. And obviously, you're a big builder yourself as well. Is there any time that you actually feel that there is perhaps too much supply added to the market? I'm not talking 2017, 2018, but perhaps 2019, 2020, that there's so much being produced that it's not being taken up by the market well.

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

I think you have to divide the towns. Not if you will have projects coming out to the market in South. I'm talking Öresund, that the market so much that the market can take up, and that's gonna be more the discussion. It has been like that. It's gonna continue being like that. If you go take yourself to Gothenburg, I'm seeing that the problem is that we have a bulk of projects that are getting longer and longer in time. We are benefiting from it right now, but it should be that they are coming out in the same years in the end, and then I'm more of 2022, something like that right now. Until that, I see the project volume actually being too small. Stockholm, it's a lot of projects. It's tough to get the hands around everything that's happening.

What we see right now is the positive trend that it's coming out more office projects into the market. It's still a lack of logistics assets that I think it's in the supply could be bigger. So the short answer is, if there's anywhere that it could be a bulk coming out at the same time, I should say Gothenburg, but then in 2022.

Robert Woerdeman
Managing Director, Europe Real Estate, Kempen & Co

All right. That's great. Thank you very much.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Hope you are happy, Robert. Then we take next question, please.

Operator

Sure. Next question comes from the line of Fredric Cyon from Carnegie. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Fredric Cyon
Senior Equity Analyst, Carnegie Investment Bank

Good morning, Ulrika . I have two questions from my side. So, starting off with the like-for-like at 3% during the first nine months here, giving you a positive outlook on the rental markets, should we expect a higher level in 2018 than 3%?

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

I could say it's a tricky question because the like-for-like growth also will have an impact of the inflation and the indexation. And the exact indexation that will hit us the next year is made of the October CPI that will be released in, but of course, if we take that as the same thing, I think that you will see what you see now and maybe in the same area to be cautious because that is due to how, like Henrik said before, also how the maturity in the portfolio is. And then in Stockholm, for example, we do have a little bit longer maturity than in the rest part of the portfolio.

Fredric Cyon
Senior Equity Analyst, Carnegie Investment Bank

Okay. Then the second question relates to the new tax proposals. Have you seen any impact on the direct market from that? And if not, do you think we will once we have reached the settlement?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

I'm convinced that we're seeing it right now in the market, on the tax part of the deals. And at the same time, you can then, of course, understand that the market is strong because we're keeping up on the values and actually increasing the values in some cases. So that's my view. The technical part of it is like I stated all the time. It's tough to make an agreement, and that could also prolong some deals, simply.

Fredric Cyon
Senior Equity Analyst, Carnegie Investment Bank

Do you think that will lead to a lower activity on the direct side for the next?

12 months?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

Yes.

Fredric Cyon
Senior Equity Analyst, Carnegie Investment Bank

Okay. Thank you.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

I have two questions on, in my mail that is in relation to tax and also one in relation to projects. So if I may take those. One question is that assuming the interest rate cap tax laws comes through, how will this impact your payable tax, including the reduced possibility to use tax carry forward losses?

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

Not much, to be honest. And the reason is that the interest rate deductibility restriction will be mitigated by lower company taxes also. So that means that it will have no big impact on Castellum as long as we have the strong cash flow we do have in our portfolio.

You can also connect that to the next tax legislation of that we had in the former question because if you put those two together, you can say the years where you had big transactions gives also higher deductibility in the interest rate part. So I don't know if that is something they have thought about, but that is the impact, I would say.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Very good. And, if I may, I will also take the other question that is more about projects. The question is that projects in terms of value is in the report SEK 3.2 billion versus SEK 73.5 billion in assets in the Q3 C report. How will this develop the coming years given your statements of low supply of new offices? And will you have this as a focus point more so than today? Project?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

Yeah. I think it I mean, in general, we can take a general answer to that. I mean, we will see an increase in the pipeline, and that, of course, we will increase that figure. And the focus is the best deals we simply can do right now is getting up the more projects into the markets with strong rental markets, simply.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Good.

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

Hope that will answer your question.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Then we hand over to the telephone line again, please.

Operator

Thank you. So we do have a follow-up question from the line of Tobias Kaj from ABG. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Tobias Kaj
Equity Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Yes. Thank you. I actually have a few follow-up questions. First of all, regarding, I mean, given the strong rental market, but you still have seen a quite significant drop in occupancy rate for offices in the western region but also in Stockholm year-to-date. Why is that? And, what do you expect going forward? Do you think you can recover your occupancy rate back to the level you were at year-end?

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

Yes. I could say you those two cities is, if you take Gothenburg for the first, that one has been hit as noticed its termination and project that has been completed, and they are fully let out again. But the tenants moved in during this year, which means that going into the next year, such an asset is 100% in occupancy rate, and maybe 70% in the figures now because they moved in, and the cash flow hit us during part of this year. And that means everything else equal, the occupancy rate will increase the next year going forward. The same story is in Stockholm, and that was in some of the assets that we got from Norrporten that had a big vacancy, but they are now fully let out.

I think the last tenant moved in here in September this year. Going forward, that one will also increase everything else equal.

Tobias Kaj
Equity Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Okay. Thank you. And, regarding your funding structure, you continue to increase your volume of bonds. Can you indicate how big is the price difference between bonds and bank loans if you have the same kind of duration?

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

I will not, as I always do, say what we pay to the banks, so to say, but I could say what we pay to the bond market. And then with your knowledge, you can make the calculation by yourself. But for example, a 5-year bond at the moment, I think that we would pay roughly 150, 115 basis points for that one. And, if you go to, like we did, fixed one, here, that will end in 2021, and then we'll pay all-in fixed 97 basis points. And for a 2-year, we pay all-in 37 basis points fixed in the bond market if you divide it up.

Tobias Kaj
Equity Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Okay. Thank you. And, I mean, given the favorable conditions in the bond market, which, of course, gets even more favorable if you have an investment grade rating, have you changed your view on investment grade rating? Is that something you aim for, or do you still think that you wouldn't benefit that much given that it also limits your flexibility regarding your balance sheet?

Ulrika Danielsson
CFO, Castellum

I think that getting a rating is an easy part. Getting a sustainable rating is a more tricky part, so to say. And I think that a good investment grade is more sustainable than maybe a borderline situation, so to say. And what we feel at the moment is that there is still space and room and demand for Castellum in the Swedish bond market. And also when our colleagues is going outside Sweden into the EU bond market, it gives a hole to fill here in Sweden. So, at the moment, we are satisfied where we are. And then, of course, I do have respect also that the bond market has a special situation with all the liquidity that is out there.

I still feel that it's a good mix to have not only the bond market but also many funding sources in our toolbox, so to say.

Tobias Kaj
Equity Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Okay. Thank you. One final question. It seems like Rutger Arnhult is your third largest owner at the moment. Do you have any comments regarding that?

Henrik Saxborn
CEO, Castellum

No. We don't comment on the owners.

Tobias Kaj
Equity Analyst, ABG Sundal Collier

Okay. Thank you for taking my questions.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Thank you, Tobias. More questions from the line, please?

Operator

There are currently no further questions registered. As a reminder, if you do have any questions for the speakers, please press 01 on your telephone keypad now. We don't have any questions registered at the moment, so I'll hand the call back to the speakers. Please go ahead.

Ingalill Östman
Corporate Communications Director, Castellum

Thank you so much for this time then. We close the conference. But as you know, the presentation is you can find it on Castellum's website if you would like to look into it. So thank you so much, and goodbye.

Operator

This now concludes the conference call. Thank you all for attending, and you may now disconnect your line.

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