Good morning, and welcome to this presentation covering the third quarter in Ratos for 2024. I am joined by Jonas Wiström, our President and CEO, and Jonas Ågrup, our CFO, here in the studio, and they will guide us through the results shortly. Starting this quarter, we will also give you a slightly deeper understanding of our individual subsidiaries in connection to the quarterly report. To do that, we will invite guests to our webcast, starting today. First up is the HL Display CEO, Björn Borgman, who will join us later on to give us a little bit more insight on HL's recent development and the exciting growth journey. In the end of the presentation, you will be able to raise your questions in our Q&A session, and this webcast is also recorded, so you will find it afterwards at ratos.com.
Without further ado, I'll hand over to Jonas Wiström.
Thank you, Josefine, and thank you, everyone, for joining this meeting to listen to what I think is a good result for a good quarter for Ratos, and we start up with a summary. It's really been a busy quarter. Again, I'm happy with the results and coming back to that and the strong cash flows. If we start with all processes we're in, I would like to highlight the merger of Knightec and Semcon, which was announced in the quarter. That process have had a really good start, and we see them as one company with one structure in the beginning of 2025, but it started up very well, and I'm coming back a little bit to this later.
We also launched a reconstruction in Plantasjen, which is absolutely necessary to do our structural changes forward, and we also finalized the restructuring in Expin Group. I'm very happy that Industry continues to develop actually very strong. We had a temporarily weak quarter in Construction with tough comparisons, and I will come back to that during my presentation of the business area, and as you see, the order backlog is very strong, and also the order intake it grow. This quarter is also a quarter in a little bit weaker market than we expected. Net sales is down 6%, organic - 4%. We have to note that the currency effects were quite substantial this quarter.
And again, cash flows continues to be strong, and Jonas is coming back to that, but it's even a little bit stronger than the last year. We're on 167% in cash conversion. So let's take a look into the business areas, and starting up then with Industry. They had an EBITDA growth of 21%, EBITDA margin close to 10%. I mentioned the merger of Knightec and Semcon. We will create a leading R&D partner for product and digital solutions. I'm really looking forward to that. Also, both companies had very good numbers in the quarter separately. They actually grow 8% in the technical consultants, grow 8% organic in a quarter with a weaker market.
Net sales down 2%, 2% organic negatively, and again 2% currency effects. HL and LEDiL performed add-on acquisitions in the quarter, and the effect of that is 3% in structural. We continue to see a lower market in the wind, and Aero market remains on a low level. We see signs of improvement. EBITDA up 21%, and we had increased adjusted EBITDA in both segments and in all our subsidiaries. Again, EBITDA margin close to 10%. Looking into Industrial Services, we had a bit lower sales here, and the EBITDA grew 31% in the quarter. Our EBITDA margin also increased.
We had one day more in the quarter, which normally means something. Here, we had the two longer days in July, one shorter day in August, so the calendar effect is not as strong as it is in theory because of the vacation period. But I'm very happy with the development in Industrial Services. Coming into Product Solutions, there we had a net sales growth. We did acquisitions, as I mentioned, in HL Display and LEDiL in the quarter. Sales was negatively affected by the weaker wind market or a continued weak wind market, I would say, in Diab. EBITDA up 15%, EBITDA margin close to 11%, and again, all subsidiaries increased their EBITDA in the quarter.
Now I'm really looking forward, Josefine, to listen to Björn Borgman, CEO of HL Display. Should I switch the slide here now, or?
No, I think Björn will come in here. Yeah, indeed, I am super excited to introduce, Björn Borgman, the CEO of HL Display. Please.
... Thank you, Jonas. Thank you, Josefine, and thank you for the opportunity to give some color to the Ratos portfolio companies by talking about my favorite subject, HL Display, so I will try to give a short introduction to what HL is about. I'll talk about why we believe this is a good investment for Ratos and about HL's financial development, and then we'll talk a little bit about the exciting buy and build journey we've been on for the last three years, but if we start from an introduction point of view, what is HL? HL is the leader in in-store communication and merchandising solution, helping grocery retailers to build attractive, efficient, and more sustainable stores. This might sound pretty grand, but if we drill down into a little bit more practical examples, what does this mean?
For example, when it comes to price communication, the price tag that sits in front of every product on every shelf, whether it's paper, whether it's a digital label, it is likely attached by an HL attachment. And actually, we make these kind of attachment one lap around the world every year to help grocery retailers attach their pricing in store. So that's just one example of the broad HL portfolio. Another one would be if you step into your supermarket tomorrow, you take a packet of milk, the next one will roll to the front. The rolls they roll on that you don't notice is likely an HL solution. So that's just a few examples of what we do to help grocery retailers, deliver better stores, and more efficient stores. To do this, we actually deliver these solutions to all major grocery retailers in Europe.
We do this through HL's 1,400 dedicated employees, and as a reward, we get a turnover from these grocery retailers, close to SEK 3 billion annually. So that's just a brief introduction of HL and what we do. I'm gonna try to step into the next section, which talks about why do we believe HL is a good company in the Ratos portfolio. So there are a few things in the market we operate that are beneficial and are good long-term trends to support development in HL. Firstly, we are exposed towards the grocery market. This grow in general with the population growth, 2%-4% year- on- year. Then there are a few macro trends within this environment, where HL operates and HL benefits from with our product offering that allows us to have organic growth ahead of the grocery market. They are specifically, digitalization.
So as stores digitalize, HL help stores to enable this digitalization. The attachment of electronic price labels was one example of that. There are the packaging reduction, which goes into the sustainability investment in stores. This packaging reduction usually needs merchandising solutions that HL provide. And then thirdly, it comes into, let's see here, it comes into the efficiency of operating the stores. So how can you operate these stores in a more efficient way? And here comes the milk carton example. You need less people to operate the stores with the HL merchandising solutions. So that's just a few examples on the macro trends helping us to drive ahead of organic growth.
That is also helped by the long-lasting relationship we have with the major grocery retailers, and this allows us, and their commitment to sustainability puts pressure on HL and on the Industry to deliver more sustainable solutions. HL's footprint, where we produce 80% of what we sell in our own factories, allows HL to deliver these solutions of the quality with the recycled content that is requested by our customers. This is not something that is done by our competition in this fragmented market, and this builds into my last point, that the competition for HL in this market, where we are the undisputed leader, is fairly fragmented, and many of our competitors don't run their own production, and as a consequence, they can't deliver on the sustainability journey that the grocery retailers want.
And lastly, the fragmentation of this market also helps HL to drive the buy and build journey to consolidate this marketplace and drive good synergies, which we're gonna talk about in a while. But I think all these topics and trends, together with a strong HL team, has allowed HL to deliver great financial performance over the last seven years. So looking at this, we delivered almost 34% average EBITDA CAGR growth over these seven years, and we managed to do this by growing the EBITDA year- on- year. Throughout COVID, throughout logistic challenges, throughout inflation, we managed to drive this. So this is something we are really proud of, and we managed to do this following Ratos' model of first you create stability in the business, then you create profitability in the business, and once you have good profitability, you start the growth journey.
This growth journey was something we started in 2021, and we managed to do this, or as we started this, we combined our organic growth with acquired growth. In these last three years, we managed to make 10 add-on acquisitions in HL, either driving market consolidation, offer expansion, or to get full geographical coverage in Europe. Usually, we make these acquisitions at a multiple of 5x-6x EBITDA. And then after we have benefited from the synergies of bringing this into the HL structure, this lands on about a multiple of three to five . So very good synergies, good multiples as we consolidate this Industry.
All acquisitions so far has been made in Europe as we have strengthened our leadership position in Europe, except for the last acquisition, which was made on 1st of October, when we acquired a company called Kostklip in Canada, and I will talk a little bit specifically about this Kostklip acquisition, because this was an acquisition that was maybe a little bit too early for HL to make an acquisition outside of Europe. However, this was too good an opportunity to miss on. So Kostklip come from similar heritage as HL. They come from price communication, and they have a leading position in North America when it comes to do exactly what HL has been doing, attaching price to shelf and specifically the electronic shelf labels.
What we see in North America is that the journey we've had in Europe over the last 15 years, that you've seen in Canada, where Kostklip is over the last five years, are now starting in the U.S. This is a great foundation to combine Kostklip leadership position, the HL experience, to continue to drive and benefit from this strong market trend we're going to see on electronic shelf labels in North America. Secondly, it's a good foundation for HL to cross-sell our leading merchandising solutions to Kostklip's customers in Canada. A lot of opportunities for HL to continue to accelerate the already strong growth of Kostklip. That's just one example of an acquisition, but probably one of the more interesting ones we made in this buy and build journey.
So, clearly, with that, I hope I managed to give you a little bit of color to one of the 17 portfolio companies in the Ratos portfolio. And with that, back to the Ratos studio.
Thank you so much, Björn. That was very interesting. Always a pleasure, and you will also stay with us for the Q&A session later on. Let's go back to you, Jonas Wiström, and continue with the business area, Construction & Services.
Thank you, Josefine. So here we are, Construction & Services. Net sales is down. The strong net sales were in Critical Infrastructure, where Presis Infra had yet another super quarter. If we look at the EBITDA, you can see that what drives EBITDA up is airteam and Presis Infra. What drives EBITDA down is Expin Group, project phasing, and currency effects. Before I go into the segments, I also want to, like, mention here that the order intake was very strong, and the order books are very strong in Construction. So if we take a look at the segments, again, Construction net sales down 14%. We stated it as temporarily, and it again has to do with this famous word, project phasing, we have used before, especially for Aibel.
Aibel came in a little lower in the quarter, but I'm certain that they will produce another record year. And as you remember from Q3 last year, we had very good project endings in, especially in HENT. So order intake, again, is strong, order backlog is strong, and I think our Construction companies and airteam is actually doing better than ever in their underlying performance. In Critical Infrastructure, as I mentioned, I mentioned Aibel. Presis Infra is doing yet another very good quarter, both from sales and EBITDA. When it comes to the lower EBITDA here, it is only due to that the Expin results Q3 last year were overstated. You know that we corrected all EBITDA for Expin Group in Q4 2023.
That's the whole reason for this. Let us take a final on Consumer. There we showed a little bit better result. We saw that net sales went down, but the main event is, of course, the reconstruction in Plantasjen, which we think is absolutely necessary to come to the structure where we want to be. And in connection with that, we also did a write-down of goodwill. And the reason for that is that Plantasjen, going forward, is a smaller company, but a much more profitable company. With that, I leave over to you, Jonas, talk us through the financials.
Thank you, Jonas. So just a quick overview of net sales and adjusted EBITDA if we look at these graphs. Net sales were down, as we said before, 6%. We saw a negative organic growth in the quarter, but we also had a quite large negative currency effect. So you can see here it's SEK 281 million , corresponding to 4% of net sales. And this is mainly an effect of the weak Norwegian krone, but we have also seen a stronger Swedish krona in the quarter. And if we look at the adjusted EBITDA, or sorry, if we look at LTM for net sales, we are at SEK 32.4 billion , rolling 12 months. Let's move over to the adjusted EBITDA. It's down 9%.
It's also here related, as Jonas said, to the Construction & Services, as I explained earlier. And if we look at the EBITDA LTM, we were now at SEK 2.3 billion, rolling 12 months, roughly. Let's move on to the cash flow. The cash flow from operating activities, you can see we're down 9%, but last year in Q3, we had a very strong cash flow quarter. This is yet another strong quarter with SEK 783 million in cash flow from operating activities. We see good change in net working capital, as you can see in the table. Net working capital is down a little bit more than SEK 200 million, and cash flow from operating activities, SEK 783 million, and we have a cash conversion around 170%.
It's on a really good, strong level. We continue to work a lot on focusing on the cash flow and reducing the capital tied up in the business. This is a focus that we have basically every month, going through with all the companies. It's a really strong focus on this in Ratos. If we move on to net working capital, you can see that we have a large decrease in net working capital. It corresponds to 0.3%, SEK 16 million, and this is then we look at the four-quarter average for the capital tied up in the business, but then we compare to the LTM numbers.
You can see that we have good progress, and inventory is down, and also trade receivables are down. We actually see good development in days for accounts receivables and inventory. If we look at the DSO, days sales outstanding, but also the DIO, days inventory outstanding, we continue to see good positive trends within the group. I move on to the bridges. If we look at the net sales bridge, as I said before, we are down 6%. We had some minor acquisitions in HL Display and also in LEDiL. We also had a very small negative effect from Semcon divesting a company in the U.K. in the quarter, or that was made before, but it had a negative effect in the quarter.
If we look at the organic growth, it's down SEK 299 million, so it's 4% roughly. We saw, as Jonas said, a positive and very strong growth in Critical Infrastructure, and that was very much driven by Presis Infra. We saw a negative organic growth in Construction, and this is very much a temporary weaker effect because of project phasing that we had last year, where we had a positive effect last year. Then also we saw a negative organic growth in Plantasjen. Plantasjen is now downsizing its operations and has closed quite a lot of stores in the quarter. We move on to the FX effects, quite large negative effects, SEK 281 million.
This is, again, the Norwegian krone mainly, which this has been weak, and then we have no other effects in the quarter. So that's the bridge on net sales. If I then move on to adjusted EBITDA, it was down 9% in the quarter. You can see we had some minor positive effects from acquisitions. But what I think is interesting to see here is that despite that we have a quite large negative organic growth of almost SEK 300 million, we posted a positive organic growth on EBITDA, SEK 50 million. This is attributable to the Industry companies in the business area, Industry, where we had growth in basically all the companies in both the segments.
If we look at the FX effect, it was down SEK 32 million, so it was quite a lot. Here we have a big effect in Industry. It's about SEK 15 million, but also in Construction, about SEK 16 million in negative effect. And then we had some various one-times effects, where we actually had one-time costs this quarter of around SEK 10 million, which was not adjusted in the adjusted EBITDA, and then we had some other minor items. If we look at the leverage, we are at 0.7x . If we adjust for the reversal of the write-down Aibel, we were at 1.2x . If we compare to the same quarter last year, we were at 1.3x . So we are on a low level on leverage.
We have seen leverage decreased, and we have good cash flows in the business, and we also saw net debt coming down, as you can see here on the slide. If we look at the return on capital, ROC, we were at 10.2%, and if we look at the return on invested capital, we posted 7.3% in the quarter. We look at the financial targets. On EBITDA, we say that EBITDA should amount to at least 3 billion by 2025. We have a leverage target. The leverage should be in between 1.5x-2.5x . And if we look at the dividend payout, it should be in the range of 30%-50% of net profit after tax. So that was all from me. Over to you.
Thank you, Jonas, and thank you for mentioning that we have not adjusted for all costs we have had. I spoke about business area Consumer. We had a little bit better result this year. Plantasjen improved their EBITDA, but also actually KVD improved their EBITDA.
Yes
... if we, if we take into account that we had some profit of, profit-generating projects in the quarter that we didn't adjust for. So with that, my final remarks, I think, again, the merger of Knightec and Semcon will really create value going forward, so will the reconstruction in Plantasjen, and we also have finalized the restructure of the organization in Expin. We repeat it time after time, but we continue to do good numbers in Industry and Björn is one of the strong contributors. Thank you so much for your presentation, Björn. The week, the quarter in Construction is what we mean a temporarily weak quarter. I mentioned the order backlogs and order intakes.
We've mentioned the large negative currency effect, but sales are down, and we need to recognize that our market is still quite weak, and it was a little bit weaker than expected in Q3, and therefore, we're even more happy that we're doing so good with the EBITDA. Cash flows continue to be strong or very strong, and I dare to say now that the transaction markets, at least in M&A and PE, shows signs of improvements. That's how far I go here, Josefine. So, with that, we open up for Q&A, Josefine, right?
Yes, let's. Thank you so much, Jonas and Jonas, and it's time for our Q&A session, so let's start with Henric Hintze from ABG. The line is open for you.
Hello, this is Henric here at ABG. So, first of all, the Plantasjen restructuring, I mean, could you just give us some more detail on that? What have you done so far? Where are you now in the process? What remains to be done, and how much smaller will the company be when this is completed? And what kind of margins are attainable if everything goes as planned in the process?
Yes, thank you. Thank you for a question I think everyone wants to have an answer on. I think we can report a little bit of what we've done in terms of stores, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
But we won't comment at all about the process which is ongoing and which is very important. We don't think that the process itself gains from that we put up our expectations here and now. But, Jonas, would you like to say something about the number of stores closed so far, or should we-
Yeah, we have so far closed about 35 stores, 10 in Finland and the rest in Norway and Sweden. So, that's what we have done so far. But as Jonas said, we don't want to comment on sort of the restructuring process really right now, when we are right in the middle of it, so to say.
Yeah, we can maybe comment on the headquarters.
Mm-hmm
If you would, and tragically, of course, a lot of people have been laid off also here in the process that has been. But we continue this process, and we will come back to you when we have the results.
Okay, thank you. So maybe one more about the Semcon-Knightec merger, then I'm just wondering what made you pull the trigger on that now? You've owned both companies for a while. What drove that decision?
Also very good question. As you might know, I've been in this Industry for quite some time. It's all about people, and I wanted to see some collaboration between these companies before we took this step, and the matter of fact is that they have worked together now with important customers. They have learned to know each other a little bit. So we wanted to reduce the risks, and this was, of course, the plan from the beginning when we bought Semcon and when we bought Knightec. We believe this is a business area that will grow. I mean, I used to say it's the engineers and politicians who drive the green society we all need to live in the future.
They will now create a really leading partner for R&D and digital solutions in Northern Europe. I must say that it, this process have started very well, and in my previous job, we did 65 acquisitions, so I have some experience in this area.
Okay, very good. And a final question from me then. The margin in the Industry segment surprised positively and improved year- over- year. Could you just explain what drove that?
Sorry, what?
What drove the margin increase in Industry? Any particular companies or just the segment as a whole?
All companies actually grow their EBITDA. We believe very much, of course, in strong CEOs, like Björn. That's the most important, but we our Ratos Business System is working very well, and that was something we implemented in 2018, when we had SEK 400 million in EBITDA instead of 2.3, and where we had a leverage of 3.5 or something like that. It has worked very well. It works on Industry, and Industry will be our focus coming forward.
Okay, thank you. That's all for me. Thank you.
Thank you, Henric. Let's move over and see if we have Julia Angeli Strand from Handelsbanken on the line.
Yes, I'm here. Thank you. I just have a follow-up question on Knightec Group. And so just what's your view on the technical consulting market going forward? Have you seen any signs of weakening demand?
Hi, Julia. Very good question. Actually, the market is a bit weaker. The technical consulting market is, like many other markets, a little bit weaker in Q3. That's, that's, in my opinion. And that market, I mean, it will be a growing market over time, but with the interest rates as has been, we have seen them going down. We expect they will go down, but I'm not a good forecaster. I used to say that forecasting is, astrology, astrology in Swedish. But of course, sooner or later, the market will improve, but it has actually been a little bit weaker. So therefore, it's, it's very gratifying that they grow organically 8%, Jonas, -
Mm-hmm
... in the quarter. So, that's a sign, but it's two very good companies.
Yeah. Okay, thank you. So do you think that this could have any impact on the merger, or when do you think that we will see this market to pick up? If you could just give a broad indication.
I don't think it will have an effect on the merger at all, actually. I think we can see, I mean, officially, after the authorities has approved this merger, which they will do, quite soon, we will see the new shape of the company in the first quarter next year, I would say.
Okay, understand. That's all for me. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Julia. Let's move over and see if we have Johan Sjöberg from Kepler Cheuvreux on the line. Nope, not Johan. You're welcome back another time. Let's move over to Albin Nordmark from Nordea.
Yes, hello. Thank you, Albin from Nordea here. So, you have a good order intake here in Q3 for Construction and for Aibel. So can you give us some sense of how much of that is to be realized now in Q4 and perhaps 2025 as well?
Would you like to answer that, Jonas?
Yeah, you know, we have said that the Construction companies will have a sort of a weaker market during the second half of this year, and so we won't see, you know, really high sales in Q4, but it will come gradually in 2025 and onwards. And the order book looks very good, as you can see. Yeah.
Very good-
Yeah, perfect
... also not in numbers, but also, I think, in the quality-
Yeah
... of the orders. So, yeah.
Perfect. Thank you. And also, the inventory and receivables is continuing down here. Is this normal levels, or should we expect the working capital to continue to decline year- over- year in Q4 as well?
No, I mean, normally, when it comes to accounts receivable and partly also inventory, it depends on, you know, the market and how much you grow and so on. So we have not been growing that much this year. Sales is down, as you have seen. Of course, that helps a little bit, but as I said earlier, we have a lot of focus on this, and we talk with, you know, with our subsidiaries on a monthly basis and discuss, you know, cash flow and how they can improve the capital tied up in the business.
I expect it to continue, but if we start to grow a lot, you know, in the next year or going forward, of course, we will tie up more capital in accounts receivables, for example. That's quite natural.
Yeah, but I'm glad that inventory was.
Yes
... brought up here.
Yeah
... because that
... that is really a focus area, especially-
It is
... in Consumer, right? And I would say that there has been some success there.
And for example, Plantasjen, they are running an inventory reduction program, and we saw reductions in inventory levels also in Q3. So they have been successful, and we expect them to meet, you know, the targets they have set up for the end of the year.
KVD, perhaps?
They are also down.
Yeah.
So they have also-
So
... running a program in order to reduce inventory, and it looks good. Yeah.
Last one from me. Non-recurring items regarding Plantasjen, and also the write-down, should we expect more here going forward?
No more write-downs, hopefully, but we will have more, you know, one-time costs in connection to the reconstruction process. Yeah.
Okay, thank you. That's all for me.
Thank you, and last but definitely not least, Georg Attling from Pareto. Please, the line is open.
Yes, thank you. Good morning. I have a couple, so, bear with me. But, first, on the items affecting comparability, the SEK 34 million affecting EBITDA, is that related to restruction of Plantasjen or any other items as well?
It's a combination. It's the restructuring of Plantasjen. It's the restructuring of also in Expin , that we have some one-time cost in the... And it's also the first steps in the merger of Semcon and Knightec. So it's the first step. We have taken some cost in Q3 for that, but it will come more. I expect more to come in Q4. But it will be adjusted, because it's a one-time effect. And of course, we will see then gradually going forward, we will see good synergies and cost reductions.
Okay, and on Plantasjen, down 19%, how much... Is it possible to quantify how much of this is, you know, a direct effect of the restructuring?
You don't see that much effect of the restructuring because, you know, the stores that we have closed down, they will keep on running until the end of the year, is the plan. So we will cover, you know, the Christmas season and so on in those stores. So it's more that we face a difficult market with, you know, a poor Consumer sentiment, I would say. Yeah.
Okay, and on the order intake, first, on Critical Infrastructure is down quite materially. Is there anything to pinpoint here, or is it just usual volatility? Because it's down 90%.
Good question, Georg. It's very much so that Presis Infra's orders come in in the first half of the year, so this is not a high order intake quarter. Would you comment anything more?
No, no, that's, that's the truth.
Yeah.
I mean, they normally, you know, get the orders in during the first-
And thank-
... half of the year. Yeah.
Thank you, Georg, for bringing up that question.
Yeah, and then in, because there was still, like, SEK 400 million or something in the comps, but, is that from Expin then in, in the comps?
Yes, um-
Okay
... it is. It's, I think 56 It's-
Mm
... a big sum.
Yeah, and then maybe stay on the Critical Infra side. So 26% down on EBITDA, but that's obviously mostly to do with Expin .
Entirely, entirely-
Entirely
... not mostly.
What is the EBITDA growth in Critical Infra, excluding Expin ?
Yeah, that-
It's a number that we don't... I'm sorry, Georg, but we don't disclose that number.
But I think we can say that we will disclose the numbers for the companies in our annual report.
Yes, yeah
... each and every company. But I can tell you, Georg, that it was yet another record number-
Mm
... for Presis Infra's-
They are performing-
Developing-
They are performing well.
... well, well-
Yeah
... in all aspects.
Yeah, they are.
Okay, and then just a final question on the capital allocation here, because you're down to SEK 10 billion now in market cap, leverage significantly below your target, and still looking to sell more of your portfolio companies. Where are the buybacks, to, to be very direct? Because I struggle to see you putting this cash to work in acquisition.
Yeah, there are no buybacks now, but of course, in our plans is also to use this money on improving our EPS and our EBITDA going forward. But the buyback discussion, I don't think we should comment it at all. This is, of course, a question for our board, and that is something we'll come back with, if we have anything to report.
Okay, well, what do you think, like, what would be most effective to drive EPS growth, buying your own share here at mid-single digit EBITDA multiples or splurging on acquisitions?
No, I think the main focus will be on add-on acquisitions going forward, and then also, as we, I think we communicated earlier, to acquire, you know, minority stakes in our companies.
... Yeah, when we do add-on acquisitions, we normally have a buyout option after a couple of years and so on, and that is - EPS is a very important KPI for us.
Yes, that's clear. All for me. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, Georg.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Georg, and I think that was it. Okay, so is there one more question from the call coming in, please? Yeah. No more questions, as it seems.
What? I have raised - I raised my hand.
Okay, perfect.
Yeah, we can hear you now.
Hi, Øystein Eng. Welcome. Please post your question.
Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I was mainly asking for Plantasjen, and what I was mainly wondering is why did you decide to lay off your web shop, and how much do you expect to save on that? Because Plantasjen is what we call in Norway a destination retailer. So is that web somewhat a wasted resource or? What do you say about yeah quitting the web, the web shop?
I think, I mean, I think this is an action from Plantasjen and not from Ratos. We can come back, but the best thing is to talk to Jesper Lien in Ratos about that.
Plantasjen.
Plantasjen.
Yeah.
Because we're not in a position from Ratos to sort of detail instructions on operational actions, so we can't answer that question here.
Okay, but you have no estimate on how much you expect to save from it by any means in costs?
From closing down the e-trading?
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah. No, we have no numbers on that.
Okay, okay.
Okay.
Yes, and lastly, how do you feel about leaving Finland in Plantasjen?
Yeah, that was necessary. We tried to... We haven't left Finland, but we have left Finland for Plantasjen.
Yeah, exactly.
But you know, we need to be able to make an agreement. In this case, the landlords and if they don't want to discuss it and to come to a common conclusion, we have no other option than to close it down. So that is sad, but Finland, unfortunately, has been an unprofitable country for-
Many, many years.
... for many, many years. So we couldn't. We can't use our shareholders' money on a business that is losing money year after year. We gave the stakeholders a chance to find a profitable way forward, but we couldn't agree on the terms. So that's the answer on that.
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Okay.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, and thank you so much for your questions, and as said, initially, this webcast was recorded, so you can see it afterwards at ratos.com. Thank you, Jonas, and thank you, Jonas, and thank you, Björn, who was with us to give a bit more color on the fantastic journey in HL Display, and thank you for being with us this morning. Thank you and goodbye.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Thank you, everyone.