Good morning, welcome to this fourth quarter webcast for Sivers Semiconductors. My name is Anders Storm, and I'm the Group CEO of Sivers. I'm gonna take you through the report. If we look at the Q4 report, we came in on a net sales close to SEK 50 million, increasing the sales by 113%. If we look at the full year, we came in at SEK 133 million, increasing sales by 46% year-over-year. During the quarter, we've received one of our absolutely largest orders ever from a SATCOM company of SEK 170 million that will be delivered, started delivering in Q4, but also delivered over the year. We also got another hardware order from a SATCOM company to be delivered during 2023.
We also got the first breakthrough order for the Indian 5G market, where we have SEK 3.3 million. We also revealed a Canadian customer using our solutions for radar applications. We also had a partnership with Chalmers Technology here in Sweden, which is a high-end university. We have announced over the quarter and just before the quarter started a record-breaking order, so SEK 210 million, ranging from the 12th of September to the 30th of December last year. We look more details of the report, as I mentioned, quite great growth in the quarter. We also improving our EBITDA margin quite heavily due to mainly the growth on the top line.
We also actually improving EBIT, but it's, it looks like it's gets more negative due to the acquisition of MixComm and the amortization and the depreciation of about SEK 16 million year-on-year based on that. If we remove that, it is actually a similar improvement as on the EBITDA. If we look at the full year, it has been sort of a good year overall with 46% growth, with two really good quarters coming in Q1 and Q4, two flat quarters, Q2, Q3. Still, a quite good growth in the market that's been a bit challenging, but we now see a very positive move forward.
Moving into 2023, the board have decided to do the first outlook for the company, and I will come into more in that. Also seeing a quite large improvement in the EBITDA, which is - SEK 73.7 million compared to SEK 107 million last year. Also, sort of a less improvement sort of in the EBIT. If we look at the reason behind that, actually again, it is the write-downs in the acquisition of MixComm, which is written down over 15 years, and that was an increase of SEK 77 million. Removing that, we have an improvement actually of some SEK 40 million over the year, which is in line with the EBITDA numbers.
Looking at the cash equivalents and other current final assets, we actually ended the year with about SEK 105.7 million after the cash flow in the quarter. If we look at the segment reporting, we are coming from quite small numbers in the wireless, but we're growing wireless now at about almost 700%, which is sort of moving wireless actually for the first time as the biggest business unit for the company with SEK 26.9 million in sales, with the Photonics of SEK 22.8 million. Photonics growing about 15%.
Looking now at the segment, we are more or less the same in the markets, in the North American and the European market, thanks for the European SATCOM orders that we are working with, and Asia is about the same as it has been before. If we look at also the board have decided to do an outlook for 2023, and we are announcing that there will be at least 100% net sales growth. However, as we know, it has been varying like in this year between quarters with 100% and 0% growth in some quarters, even if it is going to be higher growth, of course, than 0% in many quarters here.
And if we look at the overall EBITDA, we are seeing a positive adjusted EBITDA during the second half of 2023. We are keep on keeping a very positive view and a positive growth for the coming year as well. If we summarize it and look like a bit from a longer horizon, in 2016, we had a revenue of about SEK 18 million. Now we've grown that quite heavily over the years. We have had some struggles and challenges, of course, during the pandemic and the sort of effects of the war and everything. Now we can see the growth coming and 46%, as I said, ending up with SEK 132 million.
A 100% growth, which means about SEK 265 million for the full year 2023. Looking at the significant events, as I mentioned, the SATCOM order, the hardware order on SATCOM coming in already this year as well, breakthrough in India, as well as partnership with Chalmers University. If we look at the SATCOM order, which is based on two different projects we're working on with this customer on top of other projects we're already working on. We can see that this is sort of expecting, recognize up to 70% of the agreement from sort of Q4 to end of 2023.
We're also seeing that, this is sort of just the start of sort of the work, so to speak. If we look at the big, so sort of income for this in the future will definitely be in hardware sales where we already then have hardware sales, which going to grow generally an increasing TAM in the market. This is sort of a way of seeing it when the total TAM is going to be something like SEK 50 billion for these kind of chipsets from 2023 to 2028. We have seen the first pre-series orders of about SEK 18 million.
If we also look at sort of the overall here, it could be as much as $1 billion for Sivers' going forward in this kind of SEK 50 billion market or SEK 5 billion market. If we can just follow this, we are going to see a very heavy growth also in the future. If we look at the other order, which is sort of in total for the hardware, it's about SEK 18 million, which is part of the forecast for 2023 now. We have been working on this and this is actually quite sort of small production volumes, and we're still, due to the many chips in each flat panel, we're getting quite a heavy growth and sales.
This is just up until Q3 2023, and we expect actually to get more hardware orders for Q4 sometime during the first half of this year. If we look at the Indian market, we can say at the Indian market is now one of the millimeter wave market that is really moving in the right direction. We got this sort of a smaller order here for just SEK 2 million-SEK 3 million, but it's really a breakthrough when it comes to this market, because that's gonna be a very substantial market in the millimeter wave. After the U.S. market, it's probably gonna be the number two or number three after China.
This is the first time we're also working with Intel's Agilex baseband, which is a big step, we're gonna hear much more about that in the [Mobile World Congress], which is starting on in week nine. Of course, this is expected to turn into volume orders in the future. This is just the start and the work of it. This is very exciting, and this is just one of many Indian customers right now. The Chalmers University, again, sort of showing our sort of long, long gone high technology work in the company. We can see that we are now working also with Chalmers with the next generation sort of high-end CMOS technologies here.
This is a reward of SEK 4 million total and SEK 2 million to Sivers' over two years. I have got a lot of questions sort of around the balance sheet and the M&A situation and so forth. I thought that would be sort of helpful to go into this. There will be, of course, much more details than we have in the quarterly reports, in the yearly report where that comes out with all the notes, and you can read more about current liabilities and non-current liabilities. In general, sort of if you look at sort of the loan situation, for example, we have fairly little loan in the company so per se.
We have used or withdrawn the first SEK 50 million of the loan facility that we have, and we have the right to withdraw another SEK 50 million of that. We still have, as I said, SEK 105 million something in the bank, including this. That means that we don't have sort of a need for cash immediately. In that sense, we've been able to use this, and we haven't started using the loan even in this sense. This is sort of under the current liability, under the convertible loan here, as you can see on the right, and also it's under other liabilities. That there's a mix of loans there.
Of course, if we look at the accounts payable, that is sort of supply and working capital and IP that's going to be paid for in the future, which is sort of part of the running business, so to speak. Leasing liabilities, of course, it's part of the monthly fees in the income statement we are paying for equipment, test equipment, and that kind of things. Accrued expenses and deferred income as well, of course, is things that we have here.
In overall, I mean, the real thing to look at here is possibly the loan of the current loan of SEK 50 million, and some of the longer term loan we have actually had, which is SEK 4 million here, which you will see in that we took out from Nordea a couple of years ago. If we look at the long-term loan, we have sort of SEK 5 million-SEK 7 million here. In total it's something like SEK 60 million in the loan only currently. There's been a lot of questions about this deferred tax liability and the non-current liabilities. Looking at those, I mean, we have, this is nothing that we need to pay. That's amortized over the income statement over the year and over the lifespan.
This is not going to be paid out per se. This is just a liability due to the acquisition of MixComm. It's nothing to worry about in that sense. Again, the other big post here is the leasing liabilities, which is sort of long-term leasing of test equipment and that kind of stuff, which is also part of the monthly sort of, or quarterly cost in the income statement. Overall, that is sort of the actual loans and stuff we're paying off on is about SEK 60 million or something like that. The MixComm earn-out, as you know, there's been a process around that. That was a performance-based earn-out, about 7 million shares.
Unfortunately or so say, it was not achieved within the timeframe it was supposed to be achieved. This customer and project is progressing, so it's not sort of lost in any way, but it was a timeframe on it and we couldn't achieve that timeframe. Hence there's been a reversal of the provisions of earn-out effects in Q4, which is sort of affecting, That we have a positive, bottom line, and that effect is about SEK 78 million.
If we look at the market and customers, so give you an update on the overall here for everybody to understand sort of what is it that drives this growth and what is it that makes the company growing right now and what other verticals do we really have. As you know, we are focusing on six large megatrends within the company. It's in high speed broadband of course, connected to lasers used for fiber connectivity, but also 5G in different aspects. We also have the autonomous driving, where we have lidar and radar applications for autonomous cars.
We have the Silicon Photonics, where you can do a lot of different things with our lasers, which are now in several Fortune 100 solutions. We have the satellite communication. We have the augmented reality, where you can use our lasers and also, you know, connectivity for AR/VR with 5G connectivity. Of course, any type of invasive health monitoring and that kind of stuff with the different Silicon Photonics and others. To give you some understanding on what is it then like behind this and how are we connected to this in customers and why are these mega trends so important.
If we look at like all of these three verticals, basically the Photonics, the SATCOM, and the 5G, we can look at the customers and specifically customers that we've been talking about in the capital markets day. For example, AR Labs, which is one of the most interesting companies that we recently announced things with and going to announce more things with. They have during the last year received SEK 1.3 billion for their solutions from customers and partners like HP, Intel, NVIDIA, Lockheed Martin. There is a really big push and investment and funding proof point in this technology, and it's now coming to fruition in the market.
Also, if you look at Allspace .com, they have sort of a future imminent investment coming into the company of about, their CEO said, about $750 million. They are working with all the big companies, including military, like U.S. Army when it comes to satellite communication, Inmarsat, Boeing, Telesat, SES, and so forth. On the 5G side of things, we have another company who recently got funding, a bit smaller, but still interesting. Airvine doing some special things with our solutions for 5G. They have companies like Crosslink Capital, Paladin Capital Partners, [Lourdes] Partners, and so forth. A really strong customer ecosystem that is well-funded.
We're seeing that we are providing all of these in all of these verticals with the heart of the technology to be able to connect these things to the world. Basically all the technology they have, we provide the technology that makes their technology work, basically with connecting it to the physical world with a laser or with a radar or with a Beamformer or antenna or so forth. It's very interesting that we are so much in the middle of the technology that is delivered. All of these verticals together address sort of a total TAM of $10 billion.
The SATCOM market is $5 billion, the 5G is $2.7 billion, and the Photonics is $5 billion. In total here we have a huge market to address, and we are just seeing the first steps in this market right now that we are going into, sort of, an accelerated growth and seeing over 100% growth also next year with 46% this year. If we take a look at the Fortune 100 customer, which has been the first one, which is sensor for consumer devices, we've been working quite a long time with them. It's been a long project. They have actually now invested $137 million. Another $7 million has come in orders during Q4, which is the best year so far with $41 million in sales in our Photonics business.
We've recently had meetings with them in the U.S. and great, they're sort of a great working relationship, and they're very happy with our deliveries. They are now sort of saying that it's going from sort of technology project into volume type of thing. In their message is sort of that way. It's now more about when than if it's gonna happen and they're very happy with us and want us as a supplier for this. We are hopeful to get confirmation during 2023 on when this production will start, even if it's of course not all 100% sure things can happen. This is the most positive we've been so far, and this is the first time they confirm that this now is going to production in the future.
This is very positive news in that sense. If we look at the tier one customer here, we've been, sort of, one of the acquisitions, we got a tier one customer in the telecom space. It's a multi-year development product. We're ongoing, designing an array and so forth. They have changed their array size, and they've done a lot of changes to fit the market better what they want to do. This has sort of delayed a bit of things. We've done the first prototype build. We are working on a second prototype build in Q2 this year, and they are using several of our chipsets in the solution. We're still going on, and it's moving ahead, and we're very excited to work with this customer.
If we look at the sort of rail possibilities we've seen over the years. FirstGroup has successfully completed the first 50 km of rail now outside of London. It has, of course, taken much longer time due to the pandemic. If we look at these solutions and Evorail, which is the spin-out from First Rail, which is a 100,000 employee company, they have now sort of employed people all over Europe, in the U.S., and they are really working to get all of this technology into different places. We're very excited to be part of this and sustainability with people traveling on trains with good connectivity is just around the corner with this fantastic solution that Evorail is providing.
We talked about the project with Sivers and MaxLinear, which is a 10 Gb point-to-point solution. That project is ongoing. We've delivered samples in June and first smaller batch of this in November. They have had some issues with their baseband when it comes to supply, we still see that this is going to go into volumes in 2023 and moving into the right direction and is part of the future forecast here. Airvine, the WaveTunnel again, gets a lot of attention now. They're going to have a big launch also for Mobile World Congress. I think this is going to be one of the most interesting products actually out there. They are very alone actually in this market and can make big headway.
To look at KREEMO, our partner in South Korea, they have been working on this and working with several handset manufacturers to help us getting into also the consumer electronic side of things when it comes to the 5G. They have put in sort of first prototype orders now to build some larger volumes than just sort of samples that they've done so far. We are hopeful, and this is moving in the right direction for the future as well. If we look at Cambium, they have their solution now. It's been out for some time, and they have put in orders and bought hardware from us.
We are very happy to be part of them, and they are already using our technology, next generation technology as well to build the next solution for themselves. If we look at Adtran, which is now CCS and Adtran has now become one company since last time. They actually purchased CCS, which I think is a good thing, which will sort of reduce margin stacking and create an even better solution and at a lower cost point. They are out selling this. They are not going in the speeds that we hope for so far, much due to the RDOF, which is sort of the funding from the U.S. government. They are out in, I think, + 20 trials in this.
We hope soon to see effects on these things as well. We have Fujikura in Japan. They have been working in different projects with different large vendors. Everything from the bus trial they've been doing with autonomous buses and ITS systems in Japan with other big vendors. They recently also released now from Mobile World Congress that they work with a company called intoPIX, where they're actually using sort of 4K video streaming using 60 GHz solutions with very low latency. They are more and more coming to market, and the project is still very exciting and I think they are doing a great job in Japan, even if it's taking quite some time for them to get there.
If we look at the third Fortune 100 customer, that is still ongoing. We've delivered on the samples in November this year, and they're happy with the samples we expect, and we have meetings with them now in the U.S., and we expect to see more orders and getting into the next phase of this. Talking about the second Fortune 100 customer, we have not sort of got any update yet on what they want to do or not. On top of that, of course, we're working with multiple Fortune U.S. technology companies on top of that I will hopefully can share more on during 2023 as well. This project is also a very interesting project, and we also see multiple new project with this customer, actually.
If we look at the AR labs, the work is really going well. There is different sort of demonstrations and fairs. We are going to jointly demo this and going forward, and we're talking about now sort of getting into the next phase with AR labs, and they're very happy with the technology so far. This is one of the most exciting projects out there when it comes to these solutions. Of course, we're now getting very close, like a couple of weeks away from the biggest event of the year when it comes to mobile or wireless. That's gonna be Mobile World Congress starting on the 27th of February. We're gonna have our own booth again this year. We're gonna have a lot of meetings.
We're going to focus a lot on the partners, and it's gonna be press releases around different kind of partners and so forth around this event. We're very psyched to go there, and this is one of the biggest events that most of the business happen during the year. We're really looking forward to this, and we're really happy to see that the pandemic is sort of gone. Last year, it was 70% of the people. I think it's gonna be closer to 80%, 90% of back before the pandemic numbers again. This is quite important for us.
If we summarize 2022, we've really done well with the 46% growth, even if the market conditions and semiconductor crunch has been a problem. We have done a transformative acquisition of MixComm, what really helps us now in many different ways. We have multiple orders from our Fortune 100, and we're now seeing they are going in the right direction, also getting closer and closer to discussion about volumes in the future. We have a largest order ever with $170 million SATCOM. We've had our first sort of bigger 5G order of $2 million. We're also entering into the Indian 5G market.
Our third Fortune 100 customer was added in May 2022, working with like winners in Photonics like AR labs and different Lidar companies, which we're really happy with. We have demonstrated with the transparent antennas that we can really get into metaverse modules, antenna on displays, and hopefully then into consumer electronics via that. We have development agreement in India, as mentioned, and the year ended in a very positive note with 210 million PRs and orders coming in from different customers. Then summarizing the Q4, I mean, it's been a fantastic quarter with almost SEK 50 million in sales and 130% growth. This is really good.
We're also improving the EBITDA heavily, and we're seeing that we for next year going into a positive one in the end of the year. Again, the record order, hardware orders for SATCOM things, Indian orders, as well as partnerships with Chalmers, and as I mentioned, a very good pipeline. The pipeline on top of this press release things is looking better than ever. We now the board is more confident than ever and guide 100%, more than 100% growth for 2023 with a positive EBITDA, adjusted EBITDA in the second half. With that, I have summarized everything, and we're going to open up for Q&A.
Let me see if I can get this question thing window open here, and we can start taking all the questions. Like, there's a lot of questions already, and I'm gonna see how far I can read through them. What is the view regarding risk of dilution March, April at this low share price? Are you now after the big SATCOM order working on other financial solution without risk for dilution? Should be easy to know after the deal. Yes. I mean, of course, we're always working on funding in different ways. And as a company, a growth company, there might also always be growth cash or growth that needs to be added to the company.
Especially if you're making good deals and growing, it is important. Can you estimate the volumes you got in the SATCOM for first half and second half 2023, first generation? Yeah, I mean, the volumes is sort of in the hundreds of units, and that's sort of where we get the SEK 18 million. And that's included in the order we talked about. We probably see even more of in Q4, but we don't have that order yet. About the tier one, can we expect further info about the project volume timelines? No, not more than I've actually mentioned now. You said the F100 number three could be a fast track, two-year. Anything about timeline progress? No, I mean, we don't have the timeline for that yet.
But we are working on the project and it probably is not gonna be as a long project for the first part as we've seen like with the Fortune 100 number one. Yeah, I've answered that when it comes to fortune 100 number three, two. At your CM this September, the CEO of Allspace said that they were conducting a Series C funding and that they were just a few weeks away to complete it. Have they completed the Series C funding round yet? I can't really answer that. I'm not sure, but I would say that they have a quite large cash amount from the first round as well.
As any growth company, I mean, they constantly looking at funding, and we have to look, I think online when they close the funding or if they've closed parts of it, but they haven't announced it. They're not sure. Do you expect to have twice as many chips in Allspace second generation flat panel antenna or twice as many different chips? I mean, we expect to have more chipsets, not twice as many because this latest project compared to the beamformer projects, which will be in the both flat panels, they are sort of fewer of them in each set, but they are also more expensive. It's a trade-off. The numbers is less interesting, but the total trade-off is of course interesting.
Assuming that you would only produce advanced lasers for AR labs and utilize all of your current fab capacity for this, how much revenue potentially could your current capacity have? I mean, we have a current capacity for that kind of lasers, about one to two million lasers a year. Of course, with the really high pricing for those kind of lasers, you know, the big arrays from eight to 32 arrays, I would say that the total yearly would be something like SEK 500 million to SEK 1 billion a year, the capacity, if that goes through to volume in that sense, yes. Are there external expenses back to SEK 30 million in this quarter? Why so, and how should we think about those costs going forward?
We are, of course investing now, as part of the SATCOM deal that we're working with. Of course, we are increasing our external expenses a little bit to carry this forward. It's been sort of a bit of a spike, I think, in Q4 and with growing revenue and so forth, we'll also improve EBITDA as going forward. In your share comments, you mentioned that your InP and platform will have tremendous potential in a couple of years when customers ramp to volume. Does this mean that this first S-run now seems to be a couple of years out, i.e., more delayed? We never said when they were supposed to be ready, they cannot be delayed per se.
If we look at the overall platform, I think in general, it's going to be sort of part of sales coming in different aspects already this year and next year. I think that the indium phosphide platform has the tremendous potential I'm talking about is not just the customers we have now, but the pipeline we see. I think you should focus more on the overall new pipeline coming in from multiple Fortune 100 customers on top of those we have. That is more like that you should see that coming. What's the status on [IMEC]? We are winning deals and LiDAR deals and so forth via [IMEC], and that work is ongoing.
The [SPIDAR] for the quantum is still ongoing issue when you see or anything more about that? Yeah, I mean, the [SPIDAR] project is, sort of a research project. I don't expect us to see any sort of things from that more than actual research as we've said before. In the report, you write about having lower personal cost during Q4 compared to the previous year, those cost control initiatives. What do you totally amount in kronas in a year, full year effect? I would say, like something like SEK 10 million-SEK 15 million when it comes to personnel in general. As you can see, you know, the head count, compared to including the acquisition is actually more or less the same.
We're sort of making sure that we right-size for getting as soon as possible to and right-sizing to do that, to get to a possible a positive EBITDA there in the second half as a big. Does Rockley Photonics expect the bankruptcy affect Sivers Photonics in any way? No. Rockley Photonics is not a customer to Sivers today. You're right about more than one SATCOM customer coming to orders during 2023. How many different SATCOM customers do you have, and do you give any predictions about volumes during 2023? We don't give any predictions about volumes in per se, but we have, we're talking to, I think, it's +5 SATCOM customers for different things right now.
We expect to see more of those coming in and materialize as orders during the year. You haven't communicated anything about the new design wins. Have you got any on how do you see this pipeline for new designs during 2023? Yes. I mean, we have, but we haven't. It's like the Indian project is a design win, of course, but we're also reviewing the whole design win pipeline. Probably and hopefully we can sort of come with a clearer view on sort of where everybody is on this, maybe in the yearly report or in the next quarterly report. It's a lot of moving back and forth when it comes to customers, where they are and where they're not are in the design win phase.
We're trying to sort of clarify this when it comes to design win, design in and the project and so forth. But definitely we're winning design wins as we speak, but we are not sort of sending that out anymore. Like now we're over like the 40+ design wins. It's not so much to talk about in that sense. Will you utilize the remaining SEK 50 million in the current loan facility? Yeah, probably. We'll see. We are working on other loan facilities and so forth as well. But we'll probably use them if we need to, yes. Do you believe in positive EBITDA for full year 2023? Yes, absolutely. That's in the forecast by the board.
Could you discuss the gross margins and other external costing queue for a bit? Are these substantial levels for 2023 or anything special in these? I mean, it depends what you exactly go into gross margin. If you take COGS versus sort of sales, I mean, of course, we have constantly said that we're gonna be somewhere between 40%-60%, and it varies between projects. We also, you know, looking at, there is often a bit less margins when it maybe comes to NRE than when it comes to hardware sales. We're still definitely stand behind that we will, the gross margins will be between 40%-60% going forward.
For Allspace current generation panels, what do you estimate in sales for this full year 2023? We haven't done a full year estimate. We have what an order and total for Q1 to Q3 is SEK 18 million so far. Would you please give us an idea how much the growth of Q4 and the 2023 growth outlook comes from MixComm and how much it comes from historic Sivers business? This, it's a very hard question to answer because we have been integrating really, really hard. The work that has been done between and within the wireless business is difficult to sort of pick out because we are now using resources and sales, and it's a mix of things since we did sort of the total merger.
I think that the merger, total merger, early last year, sort of have done that. It's sort of very, very hard now to say what is what in that sense. It's been instrumental in a way that we have these different parts, so we've been able to address the market even better and capitalize on that. The extra payout for MixComm that will not be paid out, is this related to the tier one we already know MixComm had? We haven't gone into that, and we haven't shared which customer this is connected to. I cannot go into that. It's just, we can just say that it has not happened in the timeframe that we wanted it to happen. Can you give an example of how MixComm is driving synergies? Are you selling Sivers equipment in prior MixComm contracts or vice versa?
Yes. I mean, for example, technology we now are selling into SATCOM customers has been, for example, Sivers wireless, old Sivers wireless, sort of main business and knowledge and so forth. We have Richardson RFPD, for example, where we have where we are now selling 60 GHz things where MixComm was selling only. We have GlobalFoundries in the SATCOM business, where we're now getting business via GlobalFoundries because of the partnership that MixComm had with GlobalFoundries. I mean, there is a long list of things. That's why this acquisition is so transformative. Yes. I mean, I can talk for a long while about that, Claus, let's have a call separately if you like.
Do you have any plans for cut even more costs that you haven't communicated yet? No, we don't have any plans to cut more costs currently. Will you buy more shares? Yeah, we'll see if I buy. I've actually bought back all the shares now that my divorce forced me to sell, but we'll see. I'm definitely behind the company and buy when I have the chance at least. On the sales outlook, how large part is backed up by secured contracts? I would say that something like 80% is backed up by secured contracts today. The long-term financing facility, how do you reckon the change of actually doing this via loan from an actual bank or better terms than the loan facility have today?
I mean, we're constantly looking at that, and I think with the positive outlook we have and positive EBITDA next year or this year, I mean, the second half, I think it increases the possibility, of course. When do you expect orders from Fujikura? We getting orders from Fujikura constantly, even if there have been small orders so far. I assume you're asking for when do we get the big order from Fujikura. Yeah, I can't share that right now. I think we'll see more and more from them. As you see, they are pushing this hard in different aspects. When will it be official, who will be the first, second, third supplier to AR Labs?
Yeah, I don't know if that will be official in that way. I think that will sort of tickle along and be qualifications and contracts and so forth. I don't think they will go out with that. I don't think normally anyone goes out and say that in that sense. It's more like it more happens. Do MaxLinear have any concrete customers? Can you elaborate anything on this? Yes, they have concrete customers. That is part of the first project that we're working on, as we mentioned before. Any news regarding 8devices? Yeah. I mean, they have our solutions. They are selling our solutions. We are integrated into their solutions currently.
Have you got any new concrete customer following the close relationship with GlobalFoundries being on your shareholders? Yes. Uh, as I mentioned, uh, for example, uh, in-- when it comes to photonics, which is one of the bigger parts in, uh, in their stuff, we're, we're seeing multiple customers now, and, and I hope to be able to share more on the partnership on that side as well going forward. Uh, when do you think the antenna, uh, on device, uh, will be in a smartphone? I'm not sure actually exactly when that will happen, but, uh, a-and, and even if it will happen, I mean, this is all about Primo's ability to sell it in. But, uh, they are now getting into to the, the sort of prototype phase, which, which we think will, will be at least during, uh, this year, then we'll see.
8devices again, January [30 to] communicated that you buy more than announced earlier. I mean, we have announced some of the thing and also the hardware you've seen being sold this year has been a lot to 8devices. Yeah. Do you think that the growth will keep on going in 2024 and forward? Yes. I mean, we have huge markets to address and the overall TAM is, as I mentioned, $10 billion. We are just starting the journey, and now we're seeing the effects on all the work we've done. Any news on TMI Tech? Yeah, I mean, they are working on things, but they are still sort of small in that sense and we're part and they're using our beamformers and so forth.
Was there a plan how to handle the loan 50 + 50 to avoid dilution, or if so, is the plan intact and realistic? I mean, we have plans, of course. I can't go into the exact details for refinancing and all of those different things, but, I think we have realistic plans. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. Any news regarding the next generation CP for Cambium? We were hoping to get modules where instead of just chips. Yeah, I mean, they working on building the next generation stuff, and we are in dialogue there and with our solutions, but no big news, so to speak, yet, where we can officially announce anything. You mentioned that tier o ne has an update spec which new array size, including more chips.
What's the potential of this compared to EG Cambium? I think that the tier one is of course much, much larger than Cambium and the potential and the number of chips in a, in this case, a much larger array is of course very positive in that sense. Hanna, have you come to how big the volumes, how you gonna handle the volumes for the Fortune 100? I mean, we are in discussions with them how to handle them and of course we need to build a fab. If that fab's gonna be placed in the U.K. or in the U.S., we don't really know. But I think we have a very good handle.
I think during 2023, that's this is the year where we'll see this, I would say. It's kind of difficult to find out based on the report by giving an estimate guess what turnover revenue do we need to reach to break even? It's kind of difficult to find on the base of the report, but giving an estimate guess what turnover revenue do we need to reach break even? As we said, I mean, if you look at the second half and you look at we're saying that we're gonna have over 100% growth, I think that's sort of an answer in there.
I don't wanna give you an exact number, but you can look basically on what we are, what we've sold now and what we need to grow and what we're talking about in that sense. Can you talk about the importance of the QoSMOS test bed? QoSMOS. I'm not sure if I even know that. It, it might not be very important if I don't know about the QoSMOS test bed. I'm sorry. When do you think the antenna in device, and do you think that the... Yeah, that would answer that. Yes. Regarding the latest development contract with the Indian mobile operator, how do you estimate the chance that this moves to volume manufacturing? How long will it take? It's a bit hard to say how long.
This first project is actually going to be sort of done and delivered from our side already early this year. I think that it's going to be large volumes, we think. This customer is one of many. I don't think this is the largest customer. There are much bigger operators that we'll address as well. Let us come back to how that will look like. Any new product release coming up during this year, Ram? There are new products constantly coming out in the sense, but right now I think we are very focused on all the products we've built and all the customer projects we have and so forth.
I think for now, when it comes to SATCOM and 5G, we are very set and we have sort of a portfolio which will reach very, very far. The same thing for what we've been announcing for the Photonics business. Much going on. Will there be a new CMD during 2023? Yes, of course. Normally it takes a year between the capital market day, so that will probably be after summer. With the Indian development order, you are integrated with the Intel-based personnel. Do you also have other collaborations and partnerships with Intel? Not as I can see in that sense right now, but of course we are part of the AR labs where Intel is a big vendor as well.
If there's a chance that GlobalFoundries could help out building capacity for Photonics business in case of on pilot line, anything you have talked about with them? I mean, GlobalFoundries as a partner is one very interesting partner in this sense, especially with the U.S. Chip Act, I don't see that being a negative thing if we would work with them in any way. In the Q2 webinar announced that you have more F100 in Datacom, one customer there shipped 4x arrays for relation, one customer Y has ongoing Series 1 and domain. How is it going for these customers? It's going really well. We're in talks with them. We're estimating to get more sales from them going forward. It's still ongoing. Richardson RFPD highlights are very important when you acquired MixComm.
Are you happy so far? Yes. I think the Richardson is now starting to pay off. We're seeing some sort of medium orders and small orders and from sort of unexpected side type of customers that's coming in. Definitely I think that's an important piece for us, even if it's not sort of one of the most important piece, but it's an important piece. If the first Fortune 100 comes into fruition, do you think you will be able to reveal the name of the same time? It all depends a bit, as I said before. If, if they are just buying lasers from us and we sign a contract, no. But if they would be co-investor in a fab or something like that, then the name will be released.
Is the bonus connected to tier one or the repeater? We haven't gone out and told what the sort of, earn out was connected to, but now it's not, doesn't matter anymore because now it's not, in fruition, sort of say. How do you review the risk of competing technologies when it comes to the Fortune 100 customer? I would say that the last message we got, they want us to be the supplier. They could have, you know, second source or first source, but still, I mean, we are chosen as a supplier in that sense. So, I don't have any fear of being sidelined or, no new cheaper technology in that sense.
I mean, they need to do the indium phosphide lasers as we use. Is it time for the 5G to take speed now? Yes, I think, I mean, India is a good example where things are happening. We're seeing things happening also in Europe now a bit more and so forth. Yes, as we said, it's been sort of another year of delay in that part, but it's part of the growth story that we now presenting as well, of course. What is the Fortune 100 customers' upside in selecting Sivers and potentially a newly built fab when they can select, for example, Lumentum that exists in manufacturing infrastructure and contract manufacturers? I don't know what they've done with Lumentum in that sense.
We know that we have been able to provide something that nobody else has been able to provide on indium phosphide. I don't know actually exactly on what Lumentum's capacity on indium phosphide is. I assume that they've chosen us because they like our technology and what we're doing. It's been very clear just from the last meeting we had with them, that they're very happy with what we provide. Any news regarding Airvine? Rumors tells us that they are moving everything in-house now, will not affect our relationship with them or will they still be buying from you? I don't know who's spreading that kind of rumors.
There was an email or sort of a note long time ago, it was like two years ago, where they said that they would develop certain things in-house. That was the baseband part of the solution. In the discussions with us, they are definitely looking at more and more things to buy. They even actually buying more things now for other solutions. They have been buying even the antenna actually for some of their partners right now. No, we don't see anything when it comes to Airvine in that direction. On the contrary. Richardson question again, we already heard. Could your products be in Apple's products in the future? Yes, why not?
I mean, Apple is doing a lot of things that we are doing. Why not? How large do you think the radar side might be? It's hard to say, but we are seeing more and more companies. I think you will see other orders around that in the future and what's actually going on. How often do you have meetings with F100s? How many people attend? I mean, we constantly have weekly sort of technology meetings. We have other meetings coming now and then when it comes to commercials and so forth and depending on RFQs and everything we are talking about. It's quite often.
In the technology meetings we have, you know, sometimes up to 30 people, and I think that will also change now going into the next phase, being even more people in the future. Do you think Airvine can become an elephant? Yeah, I think Airvine can be really, really big. Of course they are a startup and they are starting up it since. What I think they can definitely be and that... If you look at the guy who is running that company right now, he's been known to exit into bigger companies and so forth. In my mind, you know, Cisco could be a buyer of Airvine in the future, and then of course it's a big elephant.
Do you think that you are one step ahead of your lazy competitors like AR Labs? Yes, I think so. We have been the first company who have demoed eight and 32 arrays and all of those things. I definitely think so, and that is the message we're getting as well. Are there any new verticals that you are getting into outside 5G SATCOM photonics radar or LiDAR? I mean, there are constantly new type of verticals that are popping up that we can, like, reuse our technology in. Like, I mean, there are. Like now that Fujikura have signed a deal with sort of streaming companies and so forth.
I think that the portfolio we have is very well fitted for all of these mega trends and there is a huge enough market to be part of that. We don't need to focus on any things behind, more than we actually do so. Okay. Last question now here. How long time for a pilot line? I mean, we basically have so we can run pilot things within the current fab. To build up a larger pilot line, we definitely need to build a fab and then duplicate that to do the volumes. Doing piloting, we can also do in-house in that sense. SATCOM customers, I already got the question.
Yeah, we're getting volumes order from Airvine for their launch. They are now launching in the Mobile World Congress. Okay. I think we've done an hour now, so I have to thank you all. Thank you so much for listening in, and it's been a pleasure. Please follow us on the next thing what's going happen in Mobile World Congress and others. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.