SSAB AB (publ) (STO:SSAB.A)
Sweden flag Sweden · Delayed Price · Currency is SEK
82.12
-1.58 (-1.89%)
Apr 28, 2026, 3:05 PM CET
← View all transcripts

Earnings Call: Q4 2021

Jan 28, 2022

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

Good morning, and welcome to this presentation of the SSAB year-end report. My name is Per Hillström. I'm Head of Investor Relations, and with me today is our President and CEO, Martin Lindqvist, and also our CFO, Leena Craelius. The agenda today, we will start with a summary of fantastic year 2021, and then the financials with Lena, a little bit more look at the quarter as such. We're also very pleased today to present a plan for much faster transformation of our Nordic production system. Martin will spend some time to explain what we are looking at there. At the end, as usual, outlook and summary. We will also have a lot of time for questions here, so you will be able to ask your questions at the end. By that, please, Martin, start with 2021.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Thank you, Per, and good morning, everyone. I will start with a brief comments and a summary of 2021. It was and is or was a historical year for SSAB with, I would say, a solid performance in a very strong market, and I will give you a couple of examples of that. We had an operating profit of almost SEK 19 billion or SEK 18.8 billion in operating profit. We had a very strong net cash flow of SEK 12.4 billion, and that meant that we could close the year in a debt-free position. The board decided at the board meeting to propose the AGM to have a dividend of SEK 5.25 per share.

Of course, a lot of this is due to a very strong market, but it's also structure. We have seen very strong demand for our niche products. We have seen good and solid internal performance. If we take safety as one example, we have improved the number of LTIs a lot during the year, and I would say that that is structurally. We still are not at zero, but we are approaching and doing a good job in the organization. I think also we had stable and high production. We saw a successful ramp up during the autumn of 2020 after a very challenging 2020. We saw record output in several production lines.

We have managed, I think, in a decent way to handle problems, even though they are not fully over with COVID-19 in the production sites in the organization. We have also had problems with supply chain issues, shortage of rail cars, sea transports, trucks and so on, both during the full year of 2021, during Q4, and also into Q1 2022. It was a remarkable year in many aspects, and I think the first volumes of fossil-free products that we delivered, the first fossil commercial volumes to Volvo was a landmark for SSAB. We have during the year, and are continuing with that, to announce a number of strategic initiatives and agreements with customers.

We have, or the board has taken a decision to speed up the transition and taken a directional decision to for a faster transformation. I will come back to that in the end. We have not also market-wise only surfed on a strong market. We have actually been able to continue to deliver on our strategic targets. If we look at Special Steels in 2021, they almost reached 1.5 million tons, and I would say that they would have reached it if we wouldn't have had the transport call it challenges. They are going to reach the strategic target of 1.6 million tons at the latest 2023. Services is moving on. We haven't done any major acquisitions during the year, but we are on our way to reach the strategic targets.

Americas premium share improving over the year. Looking at SSAB Europe, we are fairly close to the strategic target we have for 2023. 43% being the outcome of premium share 2021, and still a lot of things to do. Automotive, of course, a segment affected by shortage of semiconductors, but still a good growth. If we look at the premium volumes in SSAB Europe, we already 2021 reached the target for 2023. Ahead of plan, still a lot to do and a lot of interesting prospects. The Nordic market share in line with our long-term target of between 40%-45% Nordic market share. I said in the beginning, it was a marvelous year. We had record earnings in all divisions. We had very good EBIT margins, good profitability, and altogether, the EBIT summed up to almost SEK 19 billion.

Lena will give you some more details on the financials. Leena, I hand over to you.

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

Thank you, Martin. Yes, it is really a privilege to start in my new role with these kind of figures, which I will go through briefly. In this slide, if we look at the graph on the right-hand side on the bottom, we can see the EBITDA improvement quarter by quarter during this year.

Definitely the market was favorable. Prices were increasing throughout the year. Volumes were on the lower side during the second half of the year, and the problems already Martin mentioned. If we say that the market was favorable, I would also highlight the good performance of the whole organization. Already discussed about the premium mix improvement. Europe Division, Americas improving the premium portion of the sales, and also special steels delivered higher volumes this year. Good work in the sales in that aspect. Also, the stable production improvement since last year that is giving, of course, big benefit for the profitability. We can say that good achievement also in that aspect. Also the cost efficiency, we were sustaining a good cost efficiency during the year. All that's shown in the figures related to EBITDA.

Quarterly figures isolated Q4 comparing to last year, telling exactly the same story. Prices on much higher level, they are compensating well the higher raw material cost base, volume slightly lower compared to last year's fourth quarter. Fixed costs on a higher level, and this is now mainly related to maintenance activities where we had the shift in timing. SSAB Americas did the big maintenance during Q3 last year, and this year we did it instead of during Q4. Also mobile maintenance, which was done during Q4, is something we do only every second year. The other half is related to personnel costs. With these high earnings, we are realizing profit-sharing programs.

Then if we compare Q4 with the Q3 outcome, prices did continue to go upwards, compensating again higher raw material cost base, volume slightly lower, partially seasonality of Q4 related, and also these transportation problems that Martin already mentioned. Fixed cost in this comparison, more related to seasonality. Q3 is a vacation period. Then as you can see, the utilization of our capacity was higher, thus the materials and services also higher in line with that. All this good performance led to a strong cash flow. Q4 cash flow, net cash flow ended on the level of SEK 5.34 billion, and the full year, SEK 12.4 billion. Comparison, high level with last year, definitely the earnings played important role. They were much higher compared to last year.

Some negative impact with working capital, with higher inventories, but nothing to be alarmed about because the net operating working capital over net sales did develop really well during this year. Maintenance expenditures on a higher level. Financial items slightly lower. Taxes naturally higher with this level of earnings. Strategic investments were somewhat higher, and this is now mainly related to the Oxelösund conversion started and it will continue during next year as well. As said already in the beginning, the target set for year-end to be net debt free, we reached and actually exceeded the gearing ratio at the end of the year being negative minus 3%, while last year it was 19%. The net cash position positive SEK 2.3 billion.

When we look at the next year forecast on high level, the CapEx activities will increase during next year, and this is now mainly related to the Oxelösund conversion. We were indicating CapEx need for this year SEK 3-SEK 3.5, and we were slightly below three. Net interest to be somewhat lower for next year, and then the taxes higher, and that's due to the incurred taxes this year will be paid out next year. On a total level, SEK 8.5 is the total cash need estimate at this stage for next year. Very briefly about the raw material view going forward. Actually, this is illustrating the history. The iron ore peaked during 2021, started to come down, luckily during Q4, but the latest development is again upwards.

The outlook for iron ore for Q1 is that it will be on a similar level to Q4 with an upward risk. The coal prices, they continued to increase, second half of the year, peaking upwards, and they will continue to increase also during Q1. This is only few of the raw materials, the biggest raw materials, and we know that the alloys, for example, zinc and other materials, will continue to go up. Overall, the cost base is expected to be somewhat higher for Q1. Very briefly, scrap prices. This is illustrating the U.S. spot prices. They were on a higher level for Q4, coming down mainly seasonality for January, and the outlook for February is that it's stable or might be going upwards. That's still unknown. Regarding outlook and other issues, Martin will continue.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Thank you, Leena. Some words then about the accelerated Nordic transformation. To start to give you some background, back in 2017, we formed the HYBRIT joint venture together with Vattenfall and LKAB, and we also inaugurated the world unique pilot plant for producing sponge iron, fossil-free sponge iron in 2020. During last year, we delivered or produced the first sponge iron, fossil-free sponge iron in that pilot plant. We also planned to reach commercial volumes of 1.3 million tons in this project of fossil-free sponge iron in 2026, in line with the need and the demand in Oxelösund. We then in August rolled and delivered the first fossil-free steel, and that was delivered to Volvo Group to their new Tara machine.

In this partnership, we have created the foundation for a fossil-free value chain all the way from the iron ore being up in the mountain in the north of Sweden until finished products, in this example, a Tara machine from Volvo Construction Equipment. This is what we have created since 2016. We have also seen a lot of interest from customers in existing customers in our important and focused segments. These are examples of partnerships that we announced during last year. We have also seen that the demand today, and especially in the future, exceeds the planned supply of 1.3 million tons in 2026. The demand is not only bigger, but also broader than we currently have the ability to produce.

I would say a big part of it is within the mobility segment, advanced high-strength steels for automotive and for heavy transport. We have had and continue to have, and that is only increasing, new customers in those segments approaching SSAB wanting to sign partnerships and take part of this development. We have decided, or the board has decided to start a feasibility study with the ambition to accelerate the Nordic strip production system. The idea is to build a new mini mill in Luleå and one in Raahe and close existing blast furnaces and steel shops and so on. Build two new compact, high efficient mini mills with a scale of roughly 2.5 million ton each, which is in line with current capacity.

We expect to complete this transformation during the coming 10 years, and that is the timing is good because that is before the next scheduled blast furnace relining, and the next scheduled big investments in coke oven batteries and so on. The timing is perfect around 2030. This will allow us to expand the product range in terms of grades, dimensions, and quality within current specialty and premium strategy. As one example, we will be able to produce Q&T 2 meter wide with thin gauges, which is asked for by the market. This will also give us capability to run a flexible load of HBI, sponge iron, and recycled scrap. Part of the discussions and the partnerships we have with customers is to reuse the virgin scrap, so to say.

We will leverage existing downstream assets for the new mills, including Borlänge, Hämeenlinna, tube mills, Tibnor, Ruukki Construction, cut to length facilities. We will build both mills fossil-free from the start, including power supply, and I will come into some details. If we look at this graph showing the possibility to reduce with 8 million tons of carbon dioxide per year, 15 years earlier than planned. If we just put what the cost might be or where it is close today of 2030 without free allocations, because the free allocations in Europe will go away, that by itself is equivalent to EUR 7 billion per year in cost avoidance by doing this fossil-free. This, of course, overall strengthen our ESG position as a company.

If you look into the benefits with these type of mills, I would claim that this will give us the possibility to have a structural and long-term profitability uplift. If you look and start with the commercial benefits, we will have a broader range of specialty and premium products. We will be able to increase sales to Nordic customers in areas where we don't have capacity today, and that is asked for. One example is galvanized material. We will have a much faster ramp-up of fossil-free steel volumes in line with the market demand. If you look at the operational efficiencies, we will have a much better cost position. Lead times will be completely different. Today, we have lead times of six, eight, and sometimes 10 weeks.

We will build mills with lead times below two weeks. We will, as said, avoid costs for CO2 emissions, and we will re-derisk the carbon dioxide cost exposure. We will also try to take away the small last part of emissions by also looking into using biofuels in Oxelösund to become 100% fossil-free. If we look at the increased operational flexibility, and as you know, we are used to run mills like this, we have two of them in U.S., we will have lower fixed costs and a much better ability to adapt to swings in demand. It's much easier with a mini mill and electric arc furnace. It's in practice, if you put it bluntly, a red and a green button.

When the business cycle is good, you push the green button, and when the business cycle is bad, you push the red button. So much more flexibility than running blast furnaces that are typically built for being run 24/7 for 15 years or 20 years, and then you do a relining, or coke oven batteries that you run 24/7 for 30-50 years without flexibility. We will also have a better raw material flexibility. We can use both fossil-free HBI from the partnership in HYBRIT, and we can also use recycled scrap from internal operations and customers, scrap that we are typically today selling on the market. Then, of course, we will be able to reduce and avoid reinvestments in existing coal-based operation.

As you might know, many of our operations were originally built during the sixties and the seventies. We will have modern mills, state-of-the-art mills with much lower CapEx needs. We expect this, when we move now and start the feasibility study, to cost around SEK 45 billion for the coming eight to 10 years. That includes Luleå, Raahe, Borlänge, and Hämeenlinna, but it is excluding the conversion in Oxelösund that costs SEK 5 billion on top of it. If we look at the investment plan up until 2045, I would say that this is similar or even lower than the existing plan to keep maintenance of the assets we have today in moving into electric arc furnaces. We will have a much more strategic and future-oriented investments in this case.

We, when we look forward, we see that we have the ability to fund this transition with our own cash flow. We will come back with updates when we do the FIDs and so on. When we look at the overall calculation, this is a very interesting investment case. We can't do this only by ourselves. We need help with some things from the society. Of course, we need environmental permit and have an efficient environmental permit process. That is maybe a little bit less worrying. What is important, though, is that we have fossil-free electricity at the right time, at the right place. We need to work with electricity transmission and make sure together with society that we can deliver that together on time.

If we can do that, we have a very good opportunity to be fossil-free in 2030 in line with the growing market demand. The way forward, we have initiated the feasibility study for Luleå and Raahe. We will start immediately the permit process already now, and we will come back with information about sequencing and financial guidance as to when it is available. We will keep you updated as we move on with this project. Outlook and summary for the year. When we look into Q1, we continue to see healthy demand in many sectors and many areas. And especially for Q&T and advanced high-strength steel, we foresee a solid demand in Q1. There is always, of course, in Q1, as it was in 2021 in Q4, questions regarding transport capacity and also the development of the COVID-19 situation.

Right now, it's not worse than it was in Q4, and hopefully this will ease up during 2022. When we guide and look at shipments and prices, we expect higher shipments in Special Steels, Europe and Americas in Q1 versus Q4, stable prices in Special Steels, somewhat lower prices in Europe, and stable to somewhat higher prices in Americas. As Leena said, generally higher raw material costs and fuels and bottlenecks within transportation will continue in Q1. If we sum it up before we open up for questions, strong earnings, strong cash flow generation, high and stable production, good work with continuous improvement, what we internally call SSAB One, better safety performance, and a debt-free situation with a net cash position end of 2021.

The board is proposing a dividend of SEK 5.25 per share, and we have a plan for an accelerated Nordic transformation that better will meet customer demand and for fossil-free products within our segments. We are doing a step change or planning for a step change when it comes to efficiency, flexibility, and cost position, and we will be able to eliminate carbon dioxide emissions 15 years earlier than the previous plan. With that, Per, I think we open up and Leena, we open up for questions.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

Yes, we will do. Just a few words. We have good time now for questions, but I'm sure there is a lot of questions, so maybe in the first round, keep it to a couple of questions. As always, please state them one at a time to make the process a bit easier here. By that, then I would please ask the operator to present the instructions.

Operator

Thank you. If you wish to ask a question, please dial zero one on your telephone keypads now to enter the queue. Once your name is announced, you can ask your question. If you find it answered before it's your turn to speak, you can dial zero two to cancel. Our first question comes from the line of Alain Gabriel at Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Alain Gabriel
Equity Research Analyst, Morgan Stanley

Yes. Hi, good morning, everyone. I have two questions. I'll start with them one at a time. First, on the budget for your green steel transition, how much do you expect to obtain in funding from the Swedish or EU government knowing that Oxelösund was the only site to have received the EU Innovation Fund backing back in November last year, given that your peers are also expecting almost 50% funding for their projects. How much do you expect? That's the first question.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

In our calculations, we have done that this with own cash flow, and then if we would get some funding, we haven't calculated with that. The SEK 45 billion is what we believe it would cost, maximum, and we see that we can do this with our own cash flow generation.

Alain Gabriel
Equity Research Analyst, Morgan Stanley

Okay. Thank you. The second question is, what will be the maximum CapEx that you're willing to tolerate in any given year from now until the end of the project? What does that mean for your capital returns strategy and your dividends, say, for example, in 2022?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We will not change the dividend policy. The proposal for 2021 is in line with the dividend policy. We will not change that. I think we are in a position with a net cash position. When I look forward and look at demand development, cost development, and so on, you should expect us to continue to generate strong free cash flow. We will use that. Of course, this is money belonging to the shareholders. We will use that to invest and also to pay dividends.

Alain Gabriel
Equity Research Analyst, Morgan Stanley

In terms of your maximum CapEx tolerance per annum?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, but that will of course change over the years. I mean, now we start the feasibility study, and we are running the Oxelösund project. I mean, it will be a bit, call it back-end loaded, the rest of it. We will have possibilities to adjust that over time as well. We don't have one figure saying that this is the maximum investment level we will have. What we know is that we, instead of investing in old equipment, we will invest in brand-new equipment.

Alain Gabriel
Equity Research Analyst, Morgan Stanley

Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Tom Zhang of Barclays. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Tom Zhang
Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

Yes. Morning. Thanks for taking our questions. Also, too, take them one by one. The first question, I was wondering if you could help us understand what sort of the net CapEx is, because clearly you're avoiding, as you mentioned, coke oven battery, CapEx, some other CapEx that you would have needed if you kept the blast furnaces. I was wondering if you had a number on effectively what the net CapEx expenditure is over the next 10 years if you deducted those costs.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

If you take a, as I tried to show, I mean, what we see running the existing operations for the period I showed on the slide will cost slightly more. To give you some examples, a relining of a blast furnace is roughly SEK 1 billion to SEK 1.5 billion or around SEK 1.5 billion. Building a new or relining a coke oven battery is much more expensive than that. Then we have steel shops and a lot of other things. I would say this is, compared to the previous plan, a bit more front-loaded, but the absolute terms are actually slightly lower.

Tom Zhang
Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

Second question, just on U.S. plate pricing. Wondering if you're feeling any pressure there, given plate looks to have overshot HRC quite materially now. Do you think there are any sort of risks that normalizes? Or do you think this kind of plate HRC spread, an elevated spread, could be maintained given sort of infrastructure demand? Thank you.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Very good question, but I would say that what we saw regarding the spread of HRC and plate last year was abnormal, with HRC being much higher than plate. What we see now is more a historical pattern. Will that stabilize and be there forever? I don't really know. But we see a good underlying demand for plate in North America, and especially for infrastructure purposes and others. But where the spread will go, I was surprised to see the negative spread last year, to be honest.

Tom Zhang
Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

Okay. Yes, that makes sense. I think the spread now, at least from the numbers that I see, are quite a bit above historical normalized.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Mm-hmm.

Tom Zhang
Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

It sort of feels like, yeah, and the market demand is there to certainly stop it going negative again. Okay. Those are my questions. Thank you very much. Cheers.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Seth Rosenfeld of Exane BNP Paribas. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Good morning. Thanks for taking our questions. I'll take one by one, first on decarbonization and second on special steels. With regards to the decarbonization strategy, can you just give a bit more color on the raw materials plan? You note flexibility between scrap and HBI products. On the HBI side, you're reliant on HYBRIT. Can you walk us through the plans for expansion of the HYBRIT green HBI capacity and what the additional CapEx implications would be for your contribution? I'll start there, please.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

What we are planning for right now is what we call the demonstration plant, which is a full-scale production plant of 1.35 million tons. We have announced that that will be built by the partners up in Vittångi in Northern Sweden. Of course, we are discussing other plans also to step up these investments, and LKAB is doing that. We are doing this in a joint venture and a partnership. This fits together with the plans for the value chain. Our ambition is to build a fossil-free value chain and have fossil-free steel available from that fossil-free value chain for our customers. That will of course be dependent on the future demand. What we see right now is that the demand is stronger than we thought. In the partnerships we have signed, the ambitions are quite strong. We have good prospects for the future in that aspect.

Of course, we need power supplied in order to do this transformation. The power generation is there, and the power generation is being built out, but we also need power supply. That I would say will be time-wise maybe a limiting factor.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Okay. Just to follow up on that. If by 2030 you're using exclusively green inputs, how much HBI do you expect to be consuming compared to that 1.3 million tons currently under development?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yeah, of course, much more, yes. We haven't said. I mean, we are moving now into the feasibility study, and we can flex between HBI scrap and recycled virgin scrap, so to say. As said, we are not using the scrap today. We can get scrap back from customers and use internal scrap. The exact balance we need to come back to.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Okay. Thank you. I guess one last question please on special steels. Can you just talk us through the medium-term outlook for price realizations? This is a business that historically has been a lot less volatile than the Americas or Europe businesses. With some price pressure being realized today in the spot market, how do you think about special steels going forward?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

If we take a step back and look at the EBIT margins that I showed on one of the first pictures, you saw that Europe and Americas had better and higher EBIT margins than Special Steels, which is typically the case in a very strong market. You're right. Special Steels is, they are much more stable, margin-wise and price-wise, less fluctuations and less volatility. What we see and what we saw during 2021 is the structurally increasing underlying demand. We have seen that for quite some time, and that is the important part. They will continue to grow. I would bet you that we will meet the strategic target of 1.6 at the latest 2023.

We are following the plan, and we are actually a bit ahead of plan. Less volatility and more stable margins over time. The underlying demand is structurally growing.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Okay. Thank you very much.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Alan Spence at Jefferies. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Yeah, thanks, guys. Similarly, two questions. Take one at a time. The first one on decarbonization. How long do you anticipate the feasibility study to take, and what is your assumption around through-cycle profitability that allows you to finance that out of cash flow?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I must apologize.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

Tom, the first question was on how long before we can see the feasibility study.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We have started a feasibility study, and we will gradually get more and more educated. I would say maybe 1.5 to two years maximum.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Okay. The second part of that one was, what is your assumption around through-cycle profitability so that you can finance the CapEx out of cash flow?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

When we look at the long-term profitability and cash flow generation, including these investments, we see that we can finance this over this period. That's our base assumption. Of course, when you do projects like this, in Swedish we say you need to be really sure about that, and we are very confident that we can do that.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Okay, thanks. The second one on Europe. In 2021, you achieved your tonnage target for premium volumes. What's kind of an upside target for 2023, and where do you see that going?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I see we have a lot to do on that target, and especially within automotive, where the demand has been affected by shortage of semiconductors. We have excellent products and some products, they're high, the martensitic steels up to 2,000 megapascal, which, where we are world unique. We know the platforms we have or we are into and so on. I see a lot of growth prospects for the automotive part as one example. We have also invested in Borlänge in the continuous annealing line to take up the capacity. We have plenty of opportunities to continue to grow that premium mix above the target of 2023.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Thank you. Just if I have one last one, just quick confirmation. If the feasibility studies take 1.5-2 years, can you just confirm that there'll be no CapEx spent on those projects until those studies are done?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, there will be some costs, I mean, with consultants, internal work, and so on. To be honest, I don't have the exact days and months it will take the feasibility study. A fair guess from the top of my head would be 1.5 to two years. Then we know the CapEx, and then we will take the decisions mill by mill, so to say.

Alain Gabriel
Equity Research Analyst, Morgan Stanley

Okay, thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Luke Nelson at JP Morgan. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Luke Nelson
VP of Equity Research, JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Hi. Thanks for taking my questions. Two for me. Take them one by one. Firstly, again, just on decarbonization, maybe just more around the funding side of things, and follow on from the prior question that sounds like CapEx is probably gonna ramp up in a year or two's time. 2022 will sort of still be a CapEx light year from that side of things. I suppose in that context, it's likely gonna see a significant increase again in terms of balance sheet strength and the net cash position. How should we be thinking about that surplus capital over the very short term? Is it likely that it's sort of gonna be kept more as a war chest in advance of that CapEx spend?

Is there still an ability to maybe return surplus capital back to shareholders in the near term? I'll start with that.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I think we have a clear dividend policy, and we will follow that dividend policy. We are obviously in a different position right now with the net cash position. As I said, and I've said it many times, and I have a tendency of repeating myself on that issue, but you should expect us to continue to generate from operations strong cash flow and have a good cash flow generation. We are not done, even though I think Lena was rightly so impressed with the development of net operating working capital over sales. We actually had a lot of inventories at the end of the year because of transport and product problems and so on.

I think we will have solid cash flow generation for the coming years and for the future, and then we will use that cash flow wisely. As I said, it belongs to the shareholders. We will live by the dividend policy, and we will do investments that we believe is good investments for the future. It will be a combination.

Luke Nelson
VP of Equity Research, JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Thank you. Second question is, it's more just on the CapEx figure itself. Clearly, it's subject to a feasibility study and confirmation of that, but can you just talk about to what extent there's contingencies built in within that figure from things like cost inflation and overruns? Then maybe just in terms of how much of that budget is fixed versus still subject to change and maybe assumptions around things like

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Of course we have done our homework and done our calculations. We are of course not willing to put ourselves in a situation where we would over exceed that, call it, round and rough figure. There are contingencies built into that number, yes.

Luke Nelson
VP of Equity Research, JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Okay, great. I'll leave it there and I'll jump back in queue. Thank you.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Let's come back to the issue when we have the FIDs and the investment cases ready, and then we can talk about profitability, internal rate of return and so on.

Luke Nelson
VP of Equity Research, JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Okay, great.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Krishan Agarwal of Citigroup. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Krishan Agarwal
VP of Equity Research, Citigroup

Hi, thanks for taking my question. A couple of questions have already been asked, a follow-up on CapEx. I mean, with the Nordic system plan in place, we can see four large bucket of the CapEx, which is sustaining CapEx, contribution to the HYBRIT development, Oxelösund conversion CapEx, and then on top of that, Nordic system CapEx. Is that a fair way of looking at your CapEx pipeline for the next 10 years? And then can you help us, you know, estimate the CapEx for beyond 2022, in terms of all these four buckets? How should we think about kind of, you know, incremental CapEx in 2023, 2024, 2025, in these four buckets?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, but what we are saying is that the transformation or the building of two modern, highly efficient mini mills in the Nordic production system, including investments in Borlänge and Hämeenlinna and some other, that will cost roughly SEK 45 billion. We have also said that the conversion of Oxelösund will cost roughly SEK 5 billion. These are the two main buckets. Oxelösund will, as communicated earlier, be up and running and ready 2026. Also when you know that we are not going to run the existing facilities with the blast furnaces and coke oven batteries and so on for the long-term future, there will also be a bucket of CapEx avoidance in existing facilities. I mean, right now, up until now, we have been running them as going concern, meaning that they would run forever.

We have a bucket of CapEx avoidance as well. Then how that plays out every year and so on is a bit too early to say. In the SEK 45 billion, we have contingencies, and we will come back to call it FIDs for each investment. This is a directional decision, and this is the starting point of a vision and an idea of speeding up the transformation of the Nordic strip system, where we have done a lot of homework, of course.

Krishan Agarwal
VP of Equity Research, Citigroup

Sure, sure. Thanks a lot. A quick shorter term question on working capital. You've already invested close to SEK 6 billion in working capital in 2021. What should be from a modeling perspective, what should we be thinking in terms of working capital in Q1, at least from a directional point of view?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

You will of course be dependent on the market, but you should not expect us to massively invest in working capital. Quite the opposite.

Krishan Agarwal
VP of Equity Research, Citigroup

Okay. Thanks a lot. Great to hear.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Carsten Riek at Credit Suisse. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Carsten Riek
Executive Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Credit Suisse

Thank you very much. Two questions from my side. The first one is on the current order backlog in Europe and North America. Do you see any change in patterns, currently, probably for second quarter, given the high steel prices still in your order book? Means is there any standoff or do you think, the good order intake will also continue into the second quarter, so the first half is pretty much, I believe done? That's the first one.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Typically we just guide for the coming quarter, and the order book for Q1 gives us the courage to give the guidance we have. I said COVID is a question mark. The transportation system is a question mark, but the order book gives us clarity in Q1. Am I expecting the world to break down first of April? It doesn't look like that right now.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

No. What we can add also, Martin, we believe that these shortages will probably ease during the first half.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yeah.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

At least that. That's our base scenario. As you said, we don't know what.

Carsten Riek
Executive Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Credit Suisse

Okay, perfect. That helps already. The second question I have is also on the CapEx for 2022. You mentioned around SEK 5 billion. At the same time, we see that your targets for SSAB Services, for example, to achieve SEK 4.5 billion in sales, and out of it, SEK 1.5 billion through acquisition is still on. Ideally, you need to actually execute on this within the next 24 months. Is this SEK 5 billion CapEx number including any acquisition CapEx?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yes.

Carsten Riek
Executive Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Credit Suisse

Is it already included?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yes. I was partly wrong during my presentation because we actually did some acquisition within SSAB Services during 2021 as well.

Carsten Riek
Executive Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Credit Suisse

Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I just want to clarify that. Thank you very much.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Rochus Brauneiser of Kepler Cheuvreux. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Rochus Brauneiser
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Kepler Cheuvreux

Yes, good morning. Thank you for taking the question. Maybe let me get back to the to this decarbonization plan, which I guess is pretty impressive for the rest of the industry. When you talk about the motives to advance that much, I take the point on the demand, but I guess with the longer-term perspective, this is probably what you expected anyway, that the green steel is becoming what the main product the market is demanding for. Are there any other points why this is being accelerated that much? Looking at Oxelösund, you have been discussing these issues with infrastructure and permitting and the power cables and so on for quite some time.

What is giving you the confidence from that background that you can move that much faster than previously anticipated?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I think it is a bit less complicated up in Northern Sweden and Northern Finland for one reason. We have learned a lot as well during this process, but the underlying factor is the increased demand. When we started this project together with LKAB and Vattenfall, we were not really foreseeing how the demand would develop. I think also we have a unique position here up in the Nordics because we have a surplus of fossil-free electricity. We have the right iron ore, we have the knowledge, and we have now also proven that we can produce this steel. That is good, have been asked for by the market and has been creating a lot of interest in the market.

I also think that we have with those pre-prerequisites the possibility to bring and start to bring mini mills to Europe, which has not been the case before. We have experience since 20 years of running mini mills. You see the development in North America now with quite, I mean, take Steel Dynamics and Sinton as an example, quite impressive mills being built with capacity and cost position and capabilities that fits us very well. We see the possibility to broaden our product offering. One example was two-meter wide, the Q&T with thin gauges that is asked for by the market, but we don't have the ability to produce today with good cost efficiency and productivity. It's a lot of reasons, but it starts with the increase in demand from the market and the marketplace.

If you should do this anywhere in Europe, I think you should do it in Northern Sweden and Northern Finland.

Rochus Brauneiser
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Kepler Cheuvreux

Okay. I think this is a fair point. Martin, maybe can we come back to the CapEx figure? Maybe I will. I'm not 100% sure that I got it right. Is the plan including any incremental DRI investments or would be the base case that this could be done by LKAB? Is this? Are you having now a different stance on the you know on the whether you want to be part of this, or do you want to have that outside of your core competencies? Is this change this acceleration now changing your stance on what is your core business and what is outside of your core?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, it hasn't, and we haven't, to be honest, really decided. What is important for us is the partnership with LKAB and Vattenfall and the ambition to create the fossil-free value chain and to optimize that value chain. How we will invest or not in that, we need to figure out over time. We have been investing in the pilot plant, and we are now in the HYBRIT in the final stages of the FID with the demonstration plant.

Rochus Brauneiser
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Kepler Cheuvreux

Is the DRI included in the SEK 45 billion?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

The SEK 45 billion is what is currently the Nordic strip system. The answer is simple, and the answer is no.

Rochus Brauneiser
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Kepler Cheuvreux

Okay. Finally, on the ramp-up of the green steel shipment, fossil-free steel shipments, you're saying that you want to have the commercial push through already from the very start. So, is this? Are you seeing a fair chance that the mill can deliver the full volumes from the very beginning, or shall we expect there's a multi-year ramp-up?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

There is always an investment ramp-up. The good thing with this is that we can build the mills in parallel with the existing mills, and then when the new mills are ramped up, we close the existing mills. We can do that before the next blast furnace relining or before we need to spend a lot of money in coke oven batteries and others. From a risk perspective, I think this is also a way of mitigating risks. We will not put-

Rochus Brauneiser
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Kepler Cheuvreux

Okay.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Put any customers in jeopardy.

Rochus Brauneiser
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Kepler Cheuvreux

Okay. Maybe I was unclear. What I meant is on the demonstration plant, this first 1.3 million tons of fossil-free steel, what kind of timeline do you think you need to fully push and establish that tons in the market? Is this just a one-year process, or is this rather a multi-year ramp-up phase?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, we are getting more and more sure that we will be able to deliver volumes from that plant to Oxelösund 2026.

Rochus Brauneiser
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Kepler Cheuvreux

Okay, that's clear. Thank you very much.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Patrick Mann at Bank of America. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

Good day, guys. Thank you very much for the opportunity to ask the question. A bit of a follow-up question just on the possible funding for this, and apologies if I misunderstood the answer. I understood that at the moment you're planning for the SAG 45 to be funded internally from cash flows, and you're confident that you can generate that.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yes.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

I mean, is there not government funding or government support or European, funds or even low-cost financing available that can help offset some of this, CapEx bill, and will you be looking into that? Or is it the case that you've looked at it and decided to do it yourself?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, of course, there could be possibilities like that. We have not taken that into account when we have done our calculations. We see a lot of interest in funding these kind of projects. As said, when we look at the future, we see that we have the ability to fund this with our own cash flow. Then how we finally finance it. Let's take that decision when we come to the investment decisions.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

As you saw last year, we already then had this sustainability-linked bond where we had good conditions on the back of the earlier plan. Now this is much more aggressive, so we will not be in a worse position on that as well.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I think the starting position is decent with the net cash positions and good cash flow generation prospects. I think, yeah.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

Thanks. I think the reason there's so many questions on this is because your peers say, you know, they're expecting up to 50% of government support, right? I think that's right where that's all coming from.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yeah.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

I mean, maybe just one follow-up.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

But, but-

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

You know, you mentioned.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Please go ahead.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

Sorry about that. Didn't mean to interrupt you.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, I was trying to think out loud, and that is not always a good idea. Please continue.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

Second question I just wanted to ask, you know, you did speak a little bit about how this could be positive for margins in terms of, you know, the different grades and qualities of steel that you're able to output. Can you maybe just help us think through the economics, the unit economics of this a little bit more? So should we be thinking about this as higher cost steel, although you avoid CO2, but at the end of the day you're getting a premium or a higher price on average, a higher realized price?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I think

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

Is that the way to think about it?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

The way we have looked at this is that we will have a much more cost-efficient production with a broader product portfolio, and then, of course, as you mentioned, some future cost avoidance. That is how we have done the calculations. I think there will be most probably a premium to start with and on fossil-free. But I think and hope that fossil-free will be the new normal because customers and consumers are demanding that. Over time, I think this will be a very cost-efficient, effective way of producing fossil-free steel products within our niches and our segments.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

Understood. Thank you very much.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Viktor Trollsten of Danske Bank. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Yes, thank you operator, and good morning Martin and Leena.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Good morning.

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

Good morning.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Just firstly, could you please remind us on maintenance CapEx needs for the coming, say five to 10 years? What level is that?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We have had, in the last couple of years, fairly normal maintenance CapEx levels, or if I remember it correctly, at or around SEK 2 billion.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

Yeah. SEK 2 billion.

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

SEK 2 billion.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

SEK 1.2 billion-SEK 2 billions-

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yeah.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

It's been, so.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

That, of course, we see the possibility to gradually then decrease when we know that we will not run the existing system forever. So it will be, call it a gradually lower and lower.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Okay. No, that's brilliant. I just think, you know, you're sending quite strong message in terms of cash flows, I suppose. We're talking about after deducting CapEx of let's say SEK 5.5 billion per year in the coming 10 years. Let's say maintenance CapEx of SEK 1.6 billion. You know, you have historically generated, let's say SEK 3 billion in free cash flow over a cycle. That would imply SEK 10 billion in operating cash flows for the coming 10 years. You know, what's behind that? Is that, you know, a more healthy steel market or?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I think it's a combination. If you look right now and compared to a number of years ago, I think the steel market is more in balance. I think also with this Fit for 55 in Europe, there will be no possibilities for steel companies to hunt volumes because they will have to pay emission rights. I think structurally maybe healthier from an output point of view and demand and supply balance, a healthier market. We are also looking into our ability to continue to shift the mix to less volatile products, more profit-generating products. Of course, we will still have volatility, but the ambition is to reduce the volatility as much as possible. That is done with a couple of things.

Of course, the most important part, shifting the mix towards more stable price, stable and margin stable products. Continue to work with the continuous improvements in order to increase productivity, reduce cost, and reduce lead times. We have a number of programs that we are running, and I think that when we look at that, we see that and do the calculations including contingencies and so on, we see that this is clearly a good opportunity and possibility for the future.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Yeah. No, brilliant. Yeah, you know, strong message, obviously. I guess that, you know, implies normalized earnings of let's say SEK 12 billion. A strong message as well.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

2021 was obviously a very good year. You shouldn't expect us to generate more than SEK 12 billion in free cash flow every year. I've been with like a fool repeating myself that we should be able to continue to generate strong cash flow, and we are not ready. I mean, yes, we were investing a lot in working capital towards the end of the year. Yes, for sure. Will we continue to do that? No, we still see opportunities to become more capital efficient. The example with the mini mills, if you reduce lead times from just a simple calculation from 8 weeks to less than two weeks, that is also a huge possibility of releasing working capital.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Yeah, that's it. Just a question in terms of your Q1 guidance and more short-term. You know, to be clear, what you're saying is that cost could come up a bit, prices basically flat, and then you have no maintenance in Q1. I suppose, you know, mixing that together, Q1 earnings should be higher than Q4. Is that correct?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We don't give any figures or guidance. That's your job to figure out. We are also saying that we see problems in the supply chain. We had problems at the end of Q4, and we still have problems with getting trucks, getting containers, rail, ship, way shipments, boats and so on. We don't know where the COVID situation will end up and when it will end. We have had problems in Q4. We still have problems with a lot of people, with a high short-term leave, people being in quarantine, being sick, or taking care of sick family members. It's too early to say. There are still some call it problems like we had in Q4, and they persist into Q1 so far.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

Remember Viktor also that prices in Europe will be lower also, so.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Mm-hmm.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Yeah. No, that's clear. Just a final very quick question. Just in terms of returns on the CapEx program, you mentioned SEK 7 billion in avoided SO2 costs. I guess, you know, no incremental.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

That was one example. When we look at the calculation.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Yeah.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We need, as said, to come back to that when we come with the FIDs. We see this as a very interesting investment opportunity when we look at the calculations so far. Otherwise, we wouldn't propose it. Let's come back to that with more detail.

Viktor Trollsten
Equity Research Analyst, Danske Bank

Okay. Yeah. Thank you very much, guys.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Johannes Grunselius of DNB Markets. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Johannes Grunselius
Senior Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Yes. Hi, everyone. It's Johannes Grunselius here. Yeah, I have a question on, well, what you showed on basically slide 18 in your slide package about premiums on the first green steel that you're aiming for, I think 2026 or so. Could you elaborate a bit on how you see the price premiums there? Is it sort of one premium from everyone buying fossil-free steel, or is it sort of different case by case? I would so much appreciate if you could give us any sort of help in the magnitude of future price premium that you're projecting. That's my question.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, not really. I mean, we think the market is very interested. The market is willing from start to pay a premium. I honestly believe that, well, there might be a price difference between carbon-free, fossil-free steel and usual steel, or a margin difference or however you put it. But I think and hope that this will be the new normal. I think it's very hard to say what will the premium be over time and how do you calculate the premium. Let's come back to that. I don't have a good answer, but we see.

Johannes Grunselius
Senior Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Yeah.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

that the current demand is exceeding the planned capacity. Our base case guess, and I would say that this is a fairly educated guess, is that that demand will not lower over time. We have seen announcements from companies like Daimler, what kind of pressure they put on their sub-suppliers when it comes to Scope 3 emissions. My guess would be, and I would claim that this is an educated guess as well, is that that pressure will not decrease. I would say quite the opposite.

Johannes Grunselius
Senior Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

That's helpful anyway. I would-

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

What I see and what I'm trying to say, Johannes, is that I see an opportunity because the location and the knowledge and the partnership we have within HYBRIT and with customers makes this. I mean, if you should do this, you should do it in northern Sweden and northern Finland.

Johannes Grunselius
Senior Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Yeah. Got you. I mean, everybody assumes, I suppose, that the premium will be highest in the first years when this is a revolutionary product.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yes.

Johannes Grunselius
Senior Equity Research Analyst, DNB Markets

Let's see if it becomes a new normal or not. I have a question also. You mentioned a few times in the presentation, Martin, about that scrap availability seems to be pretty good for you in the Nordics. I mean, would it be possible to run the new SSAB setup with the sort of scrap in the Nordics? Is it enough scrap basically that you can be using locally, or how do you see that?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We could potentially do that, yes, run it on scrap as we do in the U.S. There is scrap availability in the Nordics, and we are one big producer of scrap, and our customers using our material. We could also use it with scrap from the market. Today, we are selling scrap to the market. There is possibility, and that's what we try to call flexibility then between HBI and scrap. We will in practice have higher flexibility than raw material flexibility today.

Patrick Mann
Equity Research Analyst, Bank of America Corporation

Okay. Got you. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Bastian Synagowitz of the Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Bastian Synagowitz
Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Deutsche Bank

Yeah. Good morning, and also thanks for taking my questions. I've got only two quick ones left. I'll also take them one at a time. Martin, could you briefly talk about the new product segments which you aim to enter, please?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We have a fairly good idea about that, and it is within the mobility sector. One good example, and I won't bore you with too many examples, but one good example is 2 meter wide Q&T, which is thin gauges, which is asked for by the market, and we are not in a cost-efficient way able to produce that today. I mean, the mill in Oxelösund is not an optimal setup to produce, I would say, thinner gauges than 4 millimeters. With these mills, we can produce 1, 2, 3, up to 4 millimeters. So we will have a broader product offering.

We will also with this mill, what we are lacking today and what is asked for is, and where we have a fairly low market share is galvanized products, especially within advanced high-strength steels. We don't have the capacity today. That will be another example.

Bastian Synagowitz
Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Deutsche Bank

with that, I guess you're really entering a new product spectrum in that sense that you're basically entering the surface market in automotive, right?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Not necessarily, no. We are focused to stay within our niches with advanced high-strength steels and Q&T. There we see possibilities both for, as said, with the example of Q&T, new grades and new gauges and widths, but also other parts where we are either Le-Lego producing today, like galvanized advanced high-strength steels or not being able to produce at all.

Bastian Synagowitz
Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Deutsche Bank

Okay. Just to briefly explore a little bit further on that.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Just to be clear, I mean, we are not changing the strategy or the focus on niche products. That's still the foundation and will continue to be the foundation of SSAB.

Bastian Synagowitz
Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Deutsche Bank

Yeah. No, I think that's very clear that you're pursuing that. Just to explore briefly further, you mentioned strong demand, and I guess we all were able to see a very strong demand from automotive. I guess this is the segment which you are emphasizing. At the same time, only at the moment, automotive I would say relative to other steel companies is underrepresented in your end market. Are you seeing that pull for fossil-free steel from other end market segments as well, such as white goods or whatever?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yes, we see that from a lot of segments, and segments that we are not active in today, and segments where we will not be active, but we see it from heavy transport, we see it from other segments where we are active today. I would say, to be honest, we see it from most of the segments want to have fossil-free steel in the future, with very few exceptions.

Bastian Synagowitz
Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Deutsche Bank

Okay , perfect. Thanks, Martin. I have one follow-up question on CapEx. Sorry to come back on that. Obviously, there have been a lot of questions around that already. Leena, you were showing some charts on CapEx, I think on slide 22. I guess before, you've always been talking about SEK 3.5 billion CapEx over the cycle as a rough guidance. To keep things simple, and instead of talking about the CapEx peak or nailing things down to one specific year, which I appreciate is very difficult to do, what would be the new normal effective over the cycle CapEx for the rest of the decade, which we should be factoring?

Again, I'm conscious that may be subject to change because if electricity isn't there, the SEK 45 billion will obviously be spent maybe over a longer time span, and maybe there will be some funding. What is the broad number we can work with versus the SEK 3 billion-SEK 3.5 billion before?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

It's a very good question, and let's come back to that because as we said, I mean, we have the maintenance CapEx level today that will over time then in existing facilities go down. We have the Oxelösund conversion, which we have said will cost until 2026, roughly SEK 5 billion. Then we have this new program. It will be a combination of that. It will be dependent on when we start. For the coming years, you should expect us to move on with Oxelösund and then gradually then start to invest in our Nordic mills. At the same time, we will start to reduce maintenance CapEx and call it other strategic CapEx in those facilities. Let's come back to that when we move on with this feasibility study and have more clarity.

We have said a round figure of 45, including contingencies and in order not to disappoint anyone with that figure.

Bastian Synagowitz
Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Deutsche Bank

Okay , sounds good. Okay. At least I tried my best. Okay, thanks so much.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

You tried on Leena's first meeting to see if you could.

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

Yeah.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Convince her to answer something that you knew that you wouldn't get an answer from Håkan or me of. Good try.

Bastian Synagowitz
Director and Head of European Steel & Mining Research, Deutsche Bank

Okay. Thanks so much. All the best.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Andy Jones at UBS. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Andy Jones
Executive Director and Head of Steel Research, UBS

Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. My question is regarding priorities, because I guess, you know, the very low power costs in northern Sweden provide a huge advantage for making low-cost sponge iron. Clearly you're dedicating a huge amount of capital to, you know, EAFs and basically sorting out the steel facilities. But it doesn't leave a huge amount to potentially invest in hybrid going forward. Can you just talk a bit more about how you see the returns on producing sponge iron, given the economics, the power costs and so forth that you see now, compared to, you know, the investments that you're making here? Because obviously the majority of the CO2 reduction comes from the, you know, the sponge iron part. You know, that seems to be where the value is.

I'm quite surprised at the magnitude of the spending here compared to the focus on HYBRIT. Are you giving up an opportunity potentially to LKAB, who seem to want to accelerate this? Are you know, essentially losing some of the value of your location? That's probably a poor question, but,

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No.

Andy Jones
Executive Director and Head of Steel Research, UBS

I can see where I'm getting at.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

What I'm trying to explain is that we will do this in a partnership in the HYBRIT partnership together with LKAB and Vattenfall. I think it will be dependent on electricity prices. I think the good thing with this project is that we will also have hydrogen storage, so we can use wind power as an example and then store energy in the hydrogen storage and then produce sponge iron 24/7 regardless of peaks or troughs in electricity prices. What I'm trying to say, let's come back to that, but we are trying together to optimize the value chain and then exactly who will do what and who will own what, we haven't really decided. That we have the partnership.

We are now investing or planning to start to invest in the demonstration plant, and then we'll take it from there.

Andy Jones
Executive Director and Head of Steel Research, UBS

I'm more-

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I'm more talking about the full value chain together with LKAB, SSAB, Vattenfall, and then customers. What we are trying to achieve is fossil-free products out at end users in a cost-efficient way.

Andy Jones
Executive Director and Head of Steel Research, UBS

Yeah. No, that makes sense. I guess I'm kind of asking, can you really afford to commit much more in terms of capital to HYBRIT, given these huge CapEx investments that you're planning here?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

That will of course depend on cash generation and so on. Now we are taking this decision and directional decision, and we'll take the decisions one by one. It goes together because we are now investing in a fossil-free value chain. I think that is what is appreciated by the market and what the market wants to see. I think the feasibility of doing that is better in the region and we are in than in other regions. With the knowledge and experience we have, we are very well suited for this and we have a strong belief that this is the future. Not maybe the full future, but this is what the market is asking for.

Andy Jones
Executive Director and Head of Steel Research, UBS

No, I completely agree. Just to clarify something on the SEK 45 billion. Obviously, the capital intensity is a lot higher than the Oxelösund one, clearly because the scope is larger. Aside from just building EAFs, could you just give us an idea for what other facilities are included in that SEK 45 billion? For example, you know, are

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, yeah. It's complete mini mills. Like, I think Sinton in Texas is a good example. Completely integrated mills, starting with electric arc furnaces, out comes finished products after rolling. This is a complete mini mill.

Andy Jones
Executive Director and Head of Steel Research, UBS

Yeah.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

In Oxelösund, we are closing the coke oven battery and the blast furnaces and moving over to electric arc furnaces. We keep the steel shop, the rolling mill, because they are state-of-the-art and very well fitted for those kind of products. I mean you should compare it with Mobile or Sinton.

Andy Jones
Executive Director and Head of Steel Research, UBS

Okay, fine. That's great. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Seth Rosenfeld at Exane BNP Paribas. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Morning. Just one follow-up question, please. I appreciate your comments earlier on the improved efficiency of the new capacity, better product mix or fixed costs, et cetera. In the past, you've given an explicit figure for the higher operating cost of green steel. I believe it was 30%-40% above traditional technologies. As you go forward and kinda dive into this at a broader scale, what's your confidence in the like-for-like operating cost component? I recognize there might be some other mitigating positives, but how do you think about the cost of production? What's your assumption around, for example, cost of that DRI substrate? Thank you.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, but we have become more and more sure about the cost and the efficiency and so on. That has not increased over time when we have become more and more sure.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

I'm sorry, the cost inflation, you're more sure of?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

No, the cost of producing steel like this has not increased when we have gotten more and more educated. I would say the opposite.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Okay. Can you confirm an updated expectation for how much your operating costs will increase like-for-like with the new technology?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

They will not increase.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Okay. Compared to prior guidance of an over 30% increase, the new guidance is no increase?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Let's come back to that, but it is not a 30% increase for sure.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Okay. I think this is something that the market definitely wants more color on, recognizing how much capital is being allocated to the shift in technology.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

We need to come back to that when we come up with the FIDs and so on and take it mill by mill. The operating costs will be much more cost efficient.

Seth Rosenfeld
Equity Research Analyst, Exane BNP Paribas

Okay. Thank you very much.

Operator

Thank you. We have one further person in the queue. That's Alan Spence of Jefferies. Please go ahead, your line is open.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Thanks. Appreciate the opportunity to ask a couple of follow-up questions. For the SEK 5 billion Oxelösund conversion CapEx, can you just confirm how much of that will be done by the end of 2022, and then how the remaining will be split 2023-2025?

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

I think for 2022, it's around SEK 1 billion.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

SEK 1 billion in 2022.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

That's the total amount spent so far?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

For Oxelösund conversion.

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

No, that's for the 2022 year.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

For 2022.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

How much was spent in 2021?

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

I don't have the exact figure, but part of the cost is already incurred during 2021. Yeah.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Okay. The second one is just on the blast furnace relines and new coke ovens for Luleå and Raahe. Were those scheduled to be done before 2030 or after 2030?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

I would say around 20-30.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Mm-hmm.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

You can always flex. Sometimes you can prolong it a year, and sometimes you need to do it a year earlier. I would say around 2030. The two blast furnaces in Raahe, one of them slightly later, and Oxelösund in that region as well. I would say around 2030, all three of them.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Effectively within the timeline of the SEK 45 billion.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Yes.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Not afterwards. Is that the correct way to think about it?

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Around that timeline. I say that around 2030 because it's not an exact science. Sometimes you're lucky and you can run a blast furnace one more year than planned. Sometimes you're unlucky and you need to do it one year earlier. Depends so much on the wear and tear in the blast furnaces, and also if you have had to stop them or not. It is not an exact science. Around 2030, all three of them.

Alan Spence
Equity Research Analyst, Jefferies

Okay, thank you.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

The idea is to avoid that, of course.

Operator

Thank you. As there are no further questions on the line at this time, I'll hand back to our speakers for the closing comments.

Per Hillström
Head of Investor Relations, SSAB

Okay, thank you. Thank you for all the interest. By that, we close today's conference call, and we wish you a pleasant day. Thank you.

Martin Lindqvist
President and CEO, SSAB

Thank you very much.

Leena Craelius
CFO, SSAB

Thank you.

Powered by