Welcome to Trelleborg Q4 Presentation 2023. For the first part of the conference call, the participants will be in listen-only mode. During the questions and answer session, participants are able to ask questions by dialing star five on their telephone keypad. Now, I will hand the conference over to the speakers CEO, Peter Nilsson and CFO, Fredrik Nilsson. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Welcome to all of you to this call. We'll be gonna present our year-end closing figures and then with a, let's say, particular focus on the Q4 performance. As usual, I'm gonna kick off, giving some overall intro and then also some comments on the business areas, and then hand over to Fredrik to guide you through the more financial part of the report. Then we're finishing off with some, let's say, headlights, headlines on the running quarter and then also finish you off, of course, with the Q&A session. As usual, also, we're gonna use a slide deck, which has been on our webpage for some time or for some time, and we're gonna use that slide deck to guide you through this presentation.
I'm gonna refer to that one and starting with that on the first page, Trelleborg Interim Report for Q4 October-December 2022. Turning to page two, agenda, which I already introduced, starting with some highlights, talk about the business areas, Fredrik go through the financials, and then do a summary with some comments also on the outlook for the running quarter, and then finishing off with the Q&A. Quickly then moving to page three. Heading, record year close with a strong quarter. We're finishing off in a good way. Very good quarter for us. Sales ending up at all-time high. Quarterly sales at, little bit north of SEK 8 billion for continuing operations. Of course, that is something also that we're aware that this is kind of excluding Wheel Systems. I'm gonna comment a little bit about that specifically.
Looking at continuing operations, we have a very strong increase of some 35%. Organic is 15%. Currency still a big beneficiary, adding 12%. Also M&A, which is then primarily driven to two months of Minnesota Rubber & Plastics, which we're also gonna comment a little bit more specific about. EBIT growing with the same as the sales, ending up at a little bit north of SEK 1.2 billion, which is then corresponding to a margin which is 50.3%, which is kind of equal to 50.4% we had a year ago. Same margin in the quarter. Already commented, this is the highest quarterly sales ever and also highest EBIT for Q4.
We still have some items affecting comparability ending up in the quarter's SEK 115, which is well within the guidance we have for the full year. Also finishing off the year with a very strong cash flow. I mean, we are happy, of course, with the overall performance, but kind of particularly on the cash flow, with ending up very strong, which is then in total pushing us to have, let's say, better operating cash flow for the full year than last year. Very strong cash flow in the quarter. We also note that we also in the quarter have had Minnesota Rubber & Plastics in the figures for two months, consolidated from October 27th. I'm gonna comment a little bit more about that also later on.
There are also two minor acquisitions consolidating quarter, MG Silicon, which is then adding some aerospace capabilities for TSS and some other industrial applications. Also for IST, which is focusing on the aftermarket for pipe repair, pipe seals, which is also consolidated but not really impacting the figures that much. Turning on page four, commenting a bit organic sales, a fairly equal organic growth all over our three regions. Europe growing by 13%, Asia and other markets by 14%, even though, of course, like everybody else, China has been some kind of subdued, even though we managed it fairly well, I must say. Overall Asia doing good. Americas slightly stronger than Europe and Asia.
Overall, as I already started on, let's say average here, we talk about 15 organic, which is fairly equal all across the regions. Moving to page five, agenda slide, moving quickly over to comments on the business areas. On page six, talking about the industrial solutions, we have a heading, strong sales and EBIT growth, which is actually the same heading as we have on this slide as we have on Sealing Solutions. A fairly good development all over. Organic sales plus 18%, very strong in the quarter. We have, specifically strong sales in Europe and North America, then we say solid development in Asia. Overall, good development in all geographic regions.
Continue to see this, which we already commented in the last quarter, a slowdown in European residential construction, which is hitting Industrial Solutions and also a little bit slowdown also in order intake into the infrastructure part of it. There we are not really reading in a lower overall demand. It's more that we have very strong order book in that area, and that is always a little bit bumpy. Nevertheless, it's a bit slower order intake also in that area in the quarter. EBIT and margin, well managed here also as everybody else, I guess.
We are hit here, but also inflation in a multiple of aspects, but that managed in a good way, and we managed then to grow EBIT in line with sales or slightly better, which is then putting the margin to 0.2 percentage points higher than last year. Well managed in the quarter and especially then managing these higher costs, which is then fully offset by pricing and efficiency. Acquisition of IC being added here, very short in the month, which is short in the quarter, but that is something we're gonna see more benefits from going forward. Moving to page seven and talk about Sealing Solutions. Same heading as on Industrial Solutions, strong sales and EBIT growth.
Organic sales up by 12%. Of course our M&A adding, especially Minnesota Rubber & Plastics then, adding sales in the quarter. Also fairly even from a geographical point of view, good growth in all major geographies. The major here is basically saying that China was a bit subdued, but that was compensated by good growth in other parts of Asia. We also note that especially sales to healthcare and medical and aerospace increased significantly, which is kind of a strong growth in sales and also strong order intake in these two segments. We also note a little bit slight change in the quarter related to automotive, which is also we say develop favorably, but we also see a pickup from some, yeah, as well-known issues earlier in the year.
Solid demand in industrials in the quarter, even though we note also with this much smaller dimension than if we look at the residential construction, but we see a little slowdown in industrial, which we read in maybe not, let's say, that much down in the underlying demand. We do believe there is some, let's say, inventory reductions hitting us, and that's also gonna hit us a little bit going into Q1. The underlying demand is still seen as fairly solid in most segments. Once again, we see a little bit slowdown in the kind of demand for this running quarter and potentially also, let's say for Q4 and also for Q1, which we once again read in a little bit to be some inventory adjustments.
EBIT growing slightly lower than than the sales, but nevertheless good. We also note that the margin, which is already being commented as well, is somewhat impacted by the integration of MRP, which is coming in then with a high PPA and also with, let's say, notch lower margin than than overall Sealing Solutions. That is kind of pushing down the margin. If you look kind of outside of, of MRP, that underlying margin solution was basically spot on compared to to a year ago.
We also note with satisfaction, even though MRP is the biggest one, but also MD Silicon is a nice bolt-on acquisition for us, which is kind of strengthening in some aerospace niches and also creating opportunities to leverage the technology we have or adding by acquiring MD Silicon is also something that we're gonna benefit from in other parts of the world than Europe, as MD Silicon has been primarily focused on Europe before. Overall, a very solid quarter for Sealing Solutions, but of course, heavy influenced by the integration of Minnesota Rubber & Plastics. With that topic, move to page eight, a few comments on Minnesota Rubber & Plastics. As I already commented, if you move to page eight, coming here.
Minnesota Rubber & Plastics, as I already said, consolidated from 27th of October. We also note, although minor, but we have here in the first few months, we have some extra acquisition integration costs in the quarter, which we estimate in the range of $1 million roughly, SEK 10 million, which is kind of extraordinary costs in the quarter hitting the underlying performance. We also more or less completed now the PPA allocation, and we can now give a figure for that. It's roughly we estimate it to be SEK 225 million for full year 2023, which means the running rate for these two months that they are having Q4 is 37. Also, which I already commented, the Sealing Solutions, kind of excluding MRP, was spot on to Q4 a year ago.
We also see here already now in the early integration, we say we have committed substantial synergies by integrating Rubber and Plastic, this is being confirmed here in the first few months of full ownership. Of course, it's gonna take some time to get it fully into the books. we are definitely not changing our view on this, we still believe firmly in that this gonna be delivered in the next two to three years. very happy for owning Minnesota Rubber and Plastic, we're eagerly looking forward to integrate this into Sealing Solutions in a good way. Moving over to page nine, talking about Trelleborg Wheel Systems. as I already mentioned in the beginning, of course, that is reported as a sale for sale, we still own it.
If you then move to page 10 to take the performance of Wheel Systems. Very strong development in the quarter on the back of good demand and good, let's say, price capitalization. Organic sales up by 10%. Especially we are kind of benefiting in compared to the market that we have more exposure to the Original Equipment, which is then growing in basically all tire categories and most geographical markets. Also here, most means that China is a little bit impacted by the China situation. For the rest of the world, it is growing. We note also with satisfaction that North America is developing very nicely for us and that the softening, let's say noticeable softening is in the aftermarket, especially for agricultural tires, but also material handling tires.
That is something also which is in a way always happening when people are starting to believe in lower raw material pricing and all of that, then they start to speculate and they are not buying, kind of in line with underlying demand since they are focusing on lowering the inventory and then try to buy the tires a bit later at the lower prices. Nevertheless, well managed in total, and we are also with satisfaction here growing the margin from 10% a year ago up to 12.6%. Good performance in Trelleborg Wheel Systems in Q4. Turning to page 11, some brief comments then on sustainability. This is kind of something that we now put our report and we are working on, and we note good development in those areas.
This is of course new KPIs, and I trust you're aware that, I mean, we're always gonna be a little bit higher in Q4 than Q3 due to the seasonality. Since we are mainly exposed to the northern hemisphere, then of course this colder climate is adding some CO2 in the quarter. We look on a year-on-year performance, it has been a very good development for Trelleborg in the year. Overall, our CO2 is down by some 10% year-on-year for the full year. Turning then to page 12, which is one of the biggest drivers for this, and that is the share of kind of renewable and fossil-free electricity in relation to total electricity, which you see here that also in Q4 have had a very strong growth.
This is something we continue to focus on and something we continue to believe or fully trust that we're gonna continue to see improvements in this area as we move on. Good development also in this main sustainability related KPIs. Turning to page 13, agenda slide again, and financials, and then handing over to Fredrik to comment on this.
Thank you, Peter. Let's move to page 14 and looking at the sales development. Organic sales increased by 15% in the quarter with organic growth in both business areas. Looking at the reported net sales increased by 35%. We have 8% growth from acquisition during the quarter, while currency added 12%. If we look at year to date, sales were up 27% with an organic growth at 14%. If we move to page 15, looking at the historical organic growth, we can see that the fourth quarter was another good quarter with organic growth. As you can also see in the graph, we have now been on or above our sales growth targets for the last eight quarters. Looking at page 16, showing the quarterly sales around 12 months for continuing operations.
Sales in the quarter amounted to SEK 8.1 billion, which was an all-time high for continuing operations. Moving on to page 17. We had a record high EBIT and EBIT margin for our fourth quarter. The EBIT in the quarter increased by 34% to SEK 1.2 billion, with a strong profit growth in both Industrial Solutions and Sealing Solutions. In the result, there was also positive FX effect from translation of foreign subsidiaries of SEK 75 million compared to the corresponding quarter last year. EBIT margin for continuing operations, excluding items affecting comparability, reached 15.3% compared to 15.4% for the corresponding quarter last year. In both Industrial Solutions, Sealing Solutions, there was a good sales growth supported by price adjustment to offset the higher costs.
Move on to page 18, looking at the EBIT and EBIT margin around the 12 months, we can see that the EBIT continued to increase while the margin was flat in the quarter. Looking at the full year, EBIT of SEK 5,066 million, with a margin of 16.8%, which was a very good improvement compared to prior year. Going to page 19, profit and loss statement, looking at some more details into income statement. We had some items affecting comparability in the quarter, SEK 150 million, that was entirely related to restructuring costs. Continue down in the P&L. The financial net increased from SEK 34 million - SEK 74 million in the quarter. This was mainly related to higher interest costs linked to the acquisition of Minnesota Rubber & Plastics.
The acquisition is financed with a short-term loan that of course will be repaid as soon as we receive the proceeds from the wheel divestments. We have also continued to buy back shares in the quarter. Finally, we are seeing increased interest rate. The tax rate in the quarter amounted to 27%. I will just like to reemphasize that the underlying tax rate and the guidance we have for continuing operations still is 26% for the full year. If we look for the net profit for discontinued operation, we're seeing good, as Peter mentioned, good improvement for Wheel Systems. There is also support from this where IFRS 5, where you stop the depreciation duties asset held for sale, which was impacted by SEK 167 million in the quarter. Moving on to page 20, earnings per share.
For continued operation, excluding items affecting comparability, earnings per share was up 49% from SEK 2.28 - SEK 3.40 in the quarter. If we look at the total group, earnings per share increased by 68%. If we're then moving on to page 21, looking at the cash flow, we have a strong cash flow in the quarter, reaching SEK 1.678 billion. Cash flow was positively impacted by the higher earnings generations and then also a very efficient working capital management in the quarter. Finally, it was slightly offset by a little bit higher investment, which was in line with expectation. Moving on to page 22, the cash flow conversion.
Over the last 12 months, we have a cash conversion of 774%. That just reflects the higher business activities, which has required some additional working capital during 2022. Moving on to page 23, gearing and leverage development. You can see an increase here up to 56%, which is entirely related to the acquisition of Minnesota Rubber & Plastics. Net debt was, of course, also impacted with our share buyback, which amounted to SEK 384 million during the fourth quarter. Net debt in relation to EBITDA reached 2.4 by the end of the year. Moving on to page 24, return on capital employed. You can see it's reached 15.9% in the fourth quarter. The capital employed increased due to the acquisitions, a little bit higher working capital due to the higher sales.
FX rates has also had an impact, but that was well offset by increased profitability up to the fourth quarter. I will finish off on page 25 with some financial guidelines for 2023. This is continuing operations. CapEx of around SEK 1.5 billion, restructuring cost estimated to be around SEK 250 million. Amortization of intangible assets, SEK 500 million, underlying tax rate of 26%. With that, I would like to hand back the microphone to Peter.
Yeah, great. Moving to page 26, agenda. Moving over to summary and some comments on the outlook for the running quarter. Page 27, record year in many aspects for us. Good sales, a little bit north of SEK 1 billion, which is a strong increase of 35%, which is then both organic sales, primary driver, but also currency and then also some M&A. Once again, primarily coming from Minnesota Rubber & Plastics. EBIT growing with the same, which is then roughly coming up with the margin as we had a year ago. This means that it's highest fourth quarter sales and EBIT to date for us. Items affecting comparability in line with guidance and a very strong cash flow in the quarter, which is then of course benefiting us with getting our balance sheet even stronger.
Then already commented also Minnesota, important acquisition for us, which is kind of changing the game plan a little bit, game plan for sealing solutions, which is making us as strong in North America or in Americas as we are in Europe already with our sealing operations. On top of that, also creating some further strengths in specific industrial niches. A very nice acquisition for us, which is highly synergistic, which is now we are working hard to get the synergies into the P&L. Two smaller bolt-on acquisitions, both of them strategic and reinforcing us in interesting areas, but still on a bolt-on kind of acquisitions. Moving on into page 28, it is comments on the outlook. We changed outlook a little bit. The demand is expected lower.
We are running with a very high organic sales, so we don't believe the organic sales to be the same in running quarter. This is no drama in this, and we see that the only kind of area where we see, let's say, a firm underlying demand going down is still in the residential construction. We also note that there's a bit small downtick also in industrial sales, which we are reading not really linked to the underlying demand, but more inventory focus or more cash flow focus from some of our customers, which is kind of lowering the sales here in the first few months of this year.
Also to say that we see also continued, very strong development, both in aerospace, healthcare and medical, also now automotive also beneficial in running quarters. A mixed bag, overall, we believe it's going to be lower sales, lower demand in this running quarter. Of course, with this small add-on, we still live in a very uncertain world. Of course, there is this geopolitical situation in a few dimensions which needs to be also considered. With that, leaving this and moving over to page 29. Quickly to page 30. Maybe before opening up on Q&A, there's a few comments on the divestment here. We didn't comment that on Wheel Systems.
I mean, this is running according to plan, and we believe that the Wheel Systems divesture will be executed, let's put it that, in the next few months. We are waiting only for a few, let's say, final approvals from a few jurisdictions on terms of getting the acquisition, or let's say, approved. We still firmly believe that there is no issues in this. It's more a matter of timing and capacity for some of the authorities looking at this. We do have approval already in place for the vast amount of the approvals needed, but we're still waiting for a few. We are waiting for a few approvals from a few authorities. Once again, no change in our view on this.
With this final comment, we're opening it up for a Q&A session and invite everybody who wants to address questions to us. Please go ahead.
Thank you. If you wish to ask a question, please dial star five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial star five again on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Klas Bergelind from Citi. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Hi, Peter and Fredrik. Klas at Citi. First on the outlook of lower demand into the first quarter, I get this to slight growth organically year-over-year. I'm curious if you could help us with the price mix within that. If you think this is still high single digit, 8%-10% into the first quarter. Just so we get a sense for the volume development now into the first, whether this is trending down, perhaps -5%. If you could comment on how much this is, as you alluded to, destocking in the construction end of your, of your end markets relative to any softness on the industrial side, effects from earlier pre-ordering, et cetera. I'll start there.
Hello?
Klas Bergelind, Citi, your line is now unmuted. Please go ahead.
Hear me?
Hello?
We're having some technical issues with the speakers. We'll be back soon.
This call is being recorded.
Hello?
This call is being recorded.
Hello. We are back now. I don't know what happened. Klas, can you hear?
The next question comes from Klas Bergelind from Citi. Please go ahead.
All right, let's give it a go again. Can you hear me?
Yes. Can you hear us now, Klas?
Yeah, now we can hear you, finally.
Okay.
Sorry for that.
No, it's all right. I happy that you take the blame for it, so that we don't have to.
Yeah, exactly. No, I heard from clients that they couldn't hear you either, so it wasn't only me. Thank you. First on the. Yeah, maybe you heard me then.
Sure, sure.
Just to keep it short, the price mix relative to the volume here into the first quarter, I'll start there.
I mean, we expect the volumes to be relatively flat in Q1. Might be a slight positive, but, I mean, we talk low single digit volume growth. So that is kind of what we believe at the moment.
Does that include the pricing? Obviously pricing, you have a carryover.
Pricing comes on top of that.
Got it. Okay. Again, it can be higher than the low single digit plus. Okay, cool. Okay. My second one is then thinking about the backlog and how this extends through the year. Coming back on, you know, potential pre-ordering, we've seen several companies in the sector missing expectations on orders following early pre-ordering ahead of price increases. If sales are then up high single digits including pricing, what are you seeing on incoming orders, Peter, and how long does your backlog extend when you look at the current lead times?
It is. I mean, honestly, I mean, to be very open about this is a bit tricky to evaluate at the moment. I mean, what we see the order intake kind of for short-term orders is still very solid. What we are a little bit missing is the long-term orders, which we had. A year ago, we had kind of six to nine months pre-ordering, and we don't have that anymore. So that is why we look at the order book, it's actually on a year-on-year basis still higher than a year ago, the order book. I mean, but what we are kind of missing is the long-term orders which we had a year ago. That was kind of more, as you say, pre-ordering or early ordering, and that is why we see kind of the short-term demand in the demand.
We don't estimate or believe that to be down, but people are a little bit more careful buying just to put on stock to feel safe. It's still early days, and this is something which has kind of changed in the last 30 days in a way. That is something where we still have wait and see really how it develops. As we are not kind of concerned about the start of 2023, really. I mean, of course, there is still some uncertainty if you look beyond the first few quarters. A year ago, we had a, let's say, longer order book, if you understand what I mean. I mean.
Yeah.
The short-term orders is not really any big change. Is that okay?
That's clear.
Yeah.
No, no, I understand that it's very tricky to know. I just wanted to make sure I got that right on.
We read it that some of our customers, especially in the industrial area, is becoming more careful on pre-ordering. They are kind of lowering the inventory somewhat.
Yeah. My very final one is on the cost inflation. I'm trying to think about the gap here versus pricing, and yet again, solid drop through, and you still have a lot of cost running through the P&L. Pricing is still solid. When you think about the cost development now into the first quarter, what areas do you think can start to improve? We know component costs, i.e. value add are still high, but you're thinking of energy, whether that will help you already in the first quarter. I mean, ex-Wheel Systems, you're not that intense on energy, but still. Then if any raw mats can also help you support. There could be even more margin expansion if you could hold on to the pricing there.
The energy is, as you want, is not really a big thing for us. It's very small figures, honestly, for us, let's say outside of Wheel Systems. We're monitoring it, but it's not really a big issue for us. What we are working more in is the raw materials, where we see indications that the raw materials is going down, but it's gonna take a few months before it's really coming into the accounts. We are also slightly high on inventory. Even though we have good cash flow in the quarter, we still have, let's say, a few tens of millions of EUR that we want to lower our inventory. We have also bought up a little bit on raw materials to be safe.
I think it's gonna make this kind of lower inventory takes a little bit longer to get through the P&L. We do see a deflation in overall in kind of raw materials. I mean, we have some still, some raw material supply to Europe, especially where they still are high on inventory or high on energy costs, and they try to push that through to us. That is a discussion we have. I mean, if you say raw material supply outside of Europe, we already see a clear tendency that is going down. It's still difficult really to read how much it will go down, but it will not continue up. Then, of course, we have the salary inflation that we are watching carefully.
I mean, it's already kind of been hitting us in North America and in Asia. There, of course, Europe, where there are some uncertainty here in the next few months exactly what's going to happen on that one. That is an area where we need to watch. I mean, it's not, for us, not as important as the raw material inflation. We think that overall balance here is actually, in a way, maybe not for the very first few months of 2023. I mean, if you look a little bit further into 2023, we believe that we're gonna see a positive mix from this kind of deflation raw material, even though we have a push up on some labor costs and salary inflation. That is the way we look at it.
Perfect. Thank you.
The next question comes from Erik Golrang from SEB. Please go ahead.
Thank you. A couple of follow-ups on the discussion on pricing here. Wheel Systems, obviously a business where you need to cut prices if raw materials comes down a bit. What about the industrial and Sealing now? Do you think you'll be able to hold on to all the increases you've done or any chance you would have to follow to the extent costs start to come down materially at some point during the year? The second question, I appreciate the comments on demand trends here and in general industry. If you could a bit more, perhaps give a bit more color if there's a specific segment where you see a bit more of this sort of destocking inventory, cash flow focus, and also from a regional perspective, what you're experiencing. Thank you.
On the, let's say, the price capitalization, I mean, generally, excluding Wheel Systems, as you already said, Eric, I mean, then we are spec'd in. I mean, the switching costs are high. Do we believe that we will, they hold on to the raw materials, raw material potential, let's say, deflation in a fairly good way. Of course, that needs to be balanced also with new orders. It's always a discussion with the customers. That's going to be individual cases where we might give something back, but we will only give back if that is a benefit for us. If we don't have a benefit, we don't feel that we need to give back.
We firmly believe that we're in a good position generally in this situation, going up raw material, going down raw material, we believe that we will be able to manage that in a good way, both ways. The second question, sorry, I'm a little bit short.
Segments.
Segments.
Regional.
Regional. If it's regions, then, I mean, for demand, I mean, U.S. fairly strong, even though it's some weakening and maybe not as strong as it was earlier, but it's still, let's say, a strong demand overall. Europe is, of course, the soft with uncertainties, and Asia is actually quite good with the exception of China, but we are actually quite positive on China here. Now, of course, we have Chinese New Year, we have this COVID, but our kind of reading of the situation in China is that we at the moment believe that the second part of China actually gonna be very strong. We see there is a good underlying demand, and then whether that's benefit. I mean, it's not gonna see anything in Q1.
I mean, that's gonna be a very soft Q1 in China, both related to COVID and Chinese New Year and probably a combination thereof. Going into Q2, we expect it to improve in China, and then exactly how much is kicking in in Q2 or Q3, Q4. We expect China to be strong if you look at the full year 2023. Generally positive in Asia, generally relatively positive in North America, Europe is the kind of the little bit question mark on overall kind of inflationary impact. That is the way we look at it.
Looking at the segments, industrial segments, then of course, there's a lot of sub-segments, but if you can say some sub-segments where we see a weakening or a destocking is something which is related to more consumer. We have a market in Trelleborg where we coffee machines and electrical bikes and showers, let's say high-end shower heads and stuff like that. It's very specific segments. This is more kind of segments which is more consumer-oriented. There we see a destocking taking place, and people are becoming a little more careful on that one. Then, I mean, the overall big market for us in this area is more what we call fluid power, which is hydraulic and pneumatics, which is a lot of construction equipment and hand tools and this kind of stuff.
That is also where we see a destocking. That is where we see the underlying demand is actually quite good. I mean, as you know, the construction equipment, Original Equipment makers of that is still holding up fairly well. Mining is holding up fairly well. We don't really see the underlying segments there struggling at the moment. But that is also where we see a destocking from some of our customers. That is something we're, of course, we're watching carefully. But, once again. This is, I think, what we can comment. I don't know if Fredrik want to add anything or if you have a follow-up question on that, Eric. I mean, I try to be
No, that's.
As clear as it's always.
That's fine. Much appreciated. I have one question for Fredrik, though. On the billion and a half SEK in CapEx for this year, is that somewhere where you expect continuing operations to be in relative to sales, or is it higher or lower? What kind of-
I would say-
What precedent does that CapEx guidance set for the next couple of years?
No, it's higher because there will be some additional CapEx, 2023 linked to Minnesota Rubber & Plastics. We also, in our internal plans, have some further expansion in Asia. That has.
As I say, Eric, we have not really covered in detail, but we have a few plans or new investments, especially aiming at Asia, to expand our capacity in Asia. I mean, we are outgrowing our facilities in Asia, and we need to expand the basic capacity. We have not yet announced it. In the estimates, we have put in, we can say two, three new factories in Asia.
Yeah.
That is kind of extraordinary investment simply to upgrade the presence in, especially in Asia.
Very clear. Thank you.
The next question comes from Karl Bokvist from ABG. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Good morning. Two questions. The first one on Minnesota and the $250 million in synergies, just to reiterate, that's just the cost synergies that you were talking about here, not the kind of total potential synergy benefits from revenue, et c. Number two, the timeline of these synergies, when do you think they will start to actually have an impact, if already in 2023?
The majority of the synergy is actually linked to sales. That is a misunderstanding, and that is where we see strong synergies in the way that we are cross-selling. That Minnesota is very well represented in some of the kind of fully blue-chip American customers where we are not that well represented. But combining the offering of Trelleborg and Minnesota, we have a much wider offering. Previously, we used the example of having kind of AKKA or FEM in Europe, where we sell some 1,000 products to them, while we to John Deere in US, we only sell 300 at the moment together with Minnesota. We see substantial kind of cross-selling opportunities in that.
Also especially Minnesota has been very focused on North America, and they're very strong in certain segments, especially, let's say, portable water, drinking water, and also very good in some food and beverage applications. By kind of utilizing their skills in this, we believe that we can also globalize that offering in a completely different way. The third kind of big sales unit is actually following the, let's say, the American customers abroad, where we by having this very strong footprint and presence with them in North America, we're also gonna cross-sell to them in Asia. I mean, Minnesota has not really had a good presence in Europe or Asia, while now together with Trelleborg, they will get, let's say, more, as we always say, the local presence, global reach, what they have been doing.
We firmly believe, and there's of course, very strong, kind of actions already being implemented on that one. That's gonna take some time. It's gonna be... That is why we said 2-3 years. While on the cost side, of course, we have some cost synergies as well. We have not given that, but there's also substantial cost synergies. These cost synergies is kind of already starting to be seen in the figures, and that is something that's gonna be implemented fairly soon. That is, I mean. The cost side of it is gonna be fairly quick on that one, even though we have done the reorganization internally and done some cost savings here in some management levels and stuff.
We are still waiting for announcing of some further synergistic kind of actions in terms of cutting the costs. That is the way, I mean, also once again, try to be fully transparent on this one, and that is the way we look at it with Minnesota.
Understood. Quick follow-up just on the comment you made on the orders there and the pre-ordering, tendency before. Could you give some kind of guidance of the duration of your backlog now? I understand the differences between Sealing and industrial, but, are we talking kind of like normal, time from order to delivery now in Sealing, for example?
We are still tight in some areas, but we still have a good loading. Of course, we have Once again, we have a bigger order book in total going into Q1 this year than we had a year ago. We had very strong orders a year ago, but that was once again, it was more longer-term orders. We have a good visibility both in Sealing Solutions, Industrial Solutions, at least for the next three months, and then potentially a bit beyond that as well. It's still, even though I say it's kind of getting a bit easier and these component problems, for us at least, for raw materials and stuff like that has been going away, but it still do exist in a few areas.
It's not like kind of back to, I don't know what normal is, but it's not back to where we were a few years ago. We're still suffering from lack of capacity and lack of raw materials in a few areas, but it's definitely getting a lot softer compared to kind of 6 months back, if you put like that. It's still not kind of fully out of the woods in that respect, but it's getting better. I think that is also the way we read it, at least, that is also why the customers is a little bit more reluctant to put pre-orders because they see that our delivery times is going down, and they don't need to order 6 months in advance anymore.
Of course, beyond that, it's also like ourselves, of course, we are also kind of believing that the raw material is gonna go down. Then, of course, we want to wait a little bit and order as late as possible. It's also not only about kind of availability of components and products, it's also a matter of kind of tactical actions in order to, yeah, try to get slightly lower pricing going forward if you order a little bit later. There is that is the way we read it and the way we look at it.
Understood. Thank you.
The next question comes from Hampus Engellau from Handelsbanken. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much. My question is more related to Minnesota. Would it be possible for you guys to add some more flavor on the performance in Minnesota during the quarter, like organic growth, sales, and also, EBIT margin during the quarter? If you have some more visibility on the PPA, just to have a sense for how the underlying performance is in Sealing. Yeah, that's my only question. Thanks.
Yeah. I mean, 2 months in. The first month was kind of messy, if I may say, Hampus. That of course it was, let's say, a bad month in November, but also burdened by a lot of one-off costs, some cut-off costs, and all of that. We cannot see really, let's say, on November performance as a normal month. Then comes December with this Christmas and also goes. If you look at performance in Minnesota alone compared to a year ago. In Minnesota, independent is kind of roughly the same with the exception of that they're having problems in China, because China for them has been a bigger problem for Minnesota than it's been for Trelleborg. Overall, what should I say?
We don't really want to give any details here because we are still working through it, and of course, we will get more favor on this. From an EBIT point of view, they are fairly low, due to that they have a very high PPA. Of course, I mean, here we're looking at there is a few percentage points lower than overall Sealing Solutions, which was the case as we, let's say, made acquisition. I don't know, Fredrik, if you want to add anything on this one or Christofer, if you wanna, let's say, put some more flavor on this one.
If you look at Sealing Solutions, excluding MRP, the margin was flat compared to Q4 in 2021.
Thank you.
You have the dilutive impact in the quarter.
Mm-hmm.
That's also what I was looking for. Thank you very much.
There are no more questions at this time, so I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.
Okay. Thanks, thanks all of you for listening in on this call, when we talked about our Q4 performance. We are of course excited here in Trelleborg, leaving a good quarter, but also with a lot of action gonna happen here in the next few months as we close Wheel Systems, of course, we're gonna get money, we're basically gonna be debt-free. I mean, that is the money we're gonna get for this is more than we have in net debt at the moment. That is, of course, creating possibilities for us going forward, which we're gonna, of course, looking at now and try to use that, we make sure that we use that wisely in a way. Of course, we're still tracking potential acquisitions, but we're only gonna do good acquisitions, of course.
If you cannot find it, then of course, we need to find other ways of creating benefits for our shareholders. That's gonna be an exciting year for Trelleborg because we are kind of into this stage where we're gonna change the setting completely and open up new opportunities for us. We are eagerly looking forward to keep contact with you and getting back. If you don't hear, then of course, we're gonna get back at least after Q1. Do take care, if any follow-up questions, then of course, I'm available, Fredrik is available, and especially Christofer is available to support you in any way he can, we can. Do take care and keep in touch. Thank you.