What we want to stress and typically stress again and again is that we sort of have the impression that a lot of people when you look from afar at what we do, it seems like we run a portfolio that's burning through cash. But when you look closer, that's not the case. In fact, about 80% of the portfolio is EBITDA positive, which is important and we want to stress that again because, again, we think there's a misperception out there. So end of Q2, 81% of the portfolio was EBITDA positive. Now pro form a post selling GET, that goes down a little bit because GET was very profitable.
So but we're still at like 77% of the portfolio EBITDA positive. When we talk about EBITDA positive here, we have our dear company VOY as EBIT positive because VOY I think is the only company portfolio where which owns and depreciates assets and hence we should talk about EBIT not EBITDA. But that's already adjusted in here. What we have typically done on these CMDs is also to give you a picture of growth. So this picture shows you our six top portfolio companies, six largest ones.
And what's important to note here is that how revenue is this is our pro rata share of these companies' financials. So 23,000,000 that was about $90,000,000 And important to note here is that revenue growth is really accelerating. And so from 17% now to 42%. And what we've shown what we show down here is the profitability margin, which has gone from being sort of net loss making at 23% to positive in 24% and that sort of profitability is increasing here in 2025. Now this is 3%, so may not look much but in this portfolio there's a wide range.
Some are profitable to the order of 25% and some less. But on average it's 3%. And again, here we keep VOY at the EBIT level. All the other ones is EBITDA. They don't have assets.
So if you put VOY at the EBITDA level, this goes up to about 7%. And so what we see going forward is revenue keep on growing but also and more importantly, earnings growing faster. So we haven't sort of mapped that out here, but if you allow yourselves to sort of look through to 2027 and you take our pro rata earnings of these six companies and you relate that to the entire market cap of VNB today, we're trading at like a P to earnings, P to EBITDA of about 10. So just to give you a sense that this will keep on growing here. And of course, that's not counting the, what is it, 50 companies. We have 60 companies in the portfolio. So that's just counting these six. And then we've got all these others, all these 54.
And in these four, there's a bunch of stuff that I like to call the next avitos. I'm pretty certain that in our portfolio outside of these, there are companies there that will at some point sort of grow up and become large contributors to the NAV performance. These are just a couple. Gift is a marketplace for corporate gifting. Madoma is a software business to take this huge trend now in healthcare where you take the hospital to the home.
Alwyse next generation HR, LinkedIn two point zero. You've digitalized hair color. Flow, Aura and Borso are large brand names. I think you know them. They're all in the healthcare space.
Olio is a marketplace of food waste and No Traffic is a software business for traffic lights to run traffic lights more efficient. So all of these companies are raising money. They're close to profitability and have real value. So when I talk about a PEO TAM two years out, that's putting all these things at zero. And I can guarantee you that they're not zero.
So some will have different performances. But it's I'm really excited. I hope that shows through. The other way we have in the past, but I think increasingly forward, present our portfolio is by sort of putting the different companies to different themes. So we invest into network effects, that's the common denominator.
We love these sort of high barriers to entry that network effects will give rise to and inspired by classifieds, that's really what we look for in the portfolio. There are other sort of themes that in themselves are very strong and interesting to invest into and are disrupting sort of old ways of doing things. And sometimes, I think it's important sort of to show the portfolio in that way too. So mobility obviously with BlaBlaCar and Voy which we both present, that's a big chunk of our portfolio. But there's also marketplaces and then emerging markets, which is maybe our historical home turf, less of that today, but that may be increasingly going forward.
And so there's emerging markets and it's also early stage. I think that's the sort of bulk of what I thought I'd introduce that's leaving you of course that we still trade with this big discount. Our stocks moved up somewhat since we sold GET and have started sort of buying back our stock, redeeming the bond, getting the house in order. But there's still a 44% discount to NAV, which we think has a lot of upside, think you can tell. That's what I thought I'd introduce this day with.
And what will happen now is that I will flip page and hand over to Alex. Alex is my colleague and he will sort of run the show.
Thanks Per for the introduction. Can you see me? So thanks, Per, for introduction. Our first speaker is Fredrik Helm, the Founder Co Founder and CEO of VOY Technologies. As you probably know, BNB invested in VOY in 2018, the time when the company was created.
At the moment, on fully diluted basis, we own around 20.9% of VOI, which is our second largest holding. And we are very excited about VOY's ability to redefine urban transport and create sustainable, efficient cities for everyone. So please welcome Fredrik Helm.
Need a kicker. Jon, where do you want me to stand? Somewhere in the middle.
We kick off here. We're good to go. Okay.
Now I understand why you had some issues with the kicker. But now it's working. Yes. So my name is Fredrik Jain. I'm the CEO and Co Founder of VOY.
And I think it's the seventh time now, Parik, I'm standing here, either in the room or virtually during COVID. And as Alex said, V and Par was our first big believer. And I think without V and V, there wouldn't be any boy. And Par and the team have been super, super supportive over the years, and we're very, very grateful for that. And of course, indirectly, all the LPs to VNB as well.
And we just celebrated seven years live as a company. We started with a few scrappy e scooters in Stockholm, August 2538. And now year eight live as a business, I have never felt more excited and confident that micro mobility is here to stay. Micro mobility is really reshaping how people move around. You had tube strikes here in London last week.
I think you had tube strikes in Paris this week. Throughout the spring, you had the tube and metro bus strikes in Germany. And you see situations like that, micromobility is filling the gap. And you also see that micromobility is a positive factor in making cities cleaner, less congested, yes, less noise pollution. And in that, we feel very, very good about where we are at FOI.
The team is super strong. We have come a long way on the products. We have become profitable on EBITDA and EBIT level, which is amazing. Competition has come down and regulatory tailwinds are with us. So overall, we're very, very excited starting year eight and looking forward to the next seven years.
Again? Yes, all good. So with voice since day one, a lot of things have changed, but one thing hasn't changed, our vision. So the vision was to create cities made for living and be part of a solution moving cities away from heavy, heavy car centric individual passenger is one car, look out here now. It looks so stupid.
And we don't think micro mobility is the only solution to that, but it's a very important part of the solution. We have gone from those few scrappy e scooters in Stockholm in 2018 to 160,000 vehicles all over Europe. You see that the European map is full with blue dots, which are markets where we are live. We have gone from being an only e scooter company to over the last year, it's become an e bike company as well, delivering on that vision of building a vehicle agnostic micromobility platform. We have expanded into more than 100 cities.
You see Northern Europe, Central Europe, Western Europe mainly. We still see so much room to grow over the coming years in Europe, outside of Europe. We grew a lot over the first years, 2018 to 2021. I think we went from 0 to €19,000,000 revenue, so something like that. We also lost a lot of money in 2021.
So over the last years, we really turned around the ship, continued to grow but now growing with great margins and bottom line profitability as well, which feels very, very good. We are having DACH, so the German speaking region in Europe as our largest region. Then it's the Nordics, U. K, we call it rest of Europe here. France is quickly becoming our largest growth market.
I'll talk a bit more about that. In three weeks, we're going live in Paris again, which will be the largest launch and largest contract we've ever won. So very excited about that, but a lot of logistical work to do now over the next coming weeks, but we will make it. Overall, what we are focused on now the last year or really the last three years are these three things. On the left hand side here, I say sticky user base.
So we have tried to transform our user base from being more transactional pay per ride into subscription products, recurring revenues, retention. And what we see now is that around 90% of our revenues are coming from users that, over the year, are taking more than three rides per month. So we're definitely moving in the right direction. In the second column here, we call it superior vehicles. So the first vehicles in Stockholm in 2018, they were definitely not superior.
They were scrappy, not really built for purpose. But over the seven years, I think we have iterated that we are on our eighth or ninth hardware generation of e scooters and then on our fourth generation e bike. And we see that we have taken the lifetime of the vehicles from a couple of months in the early days to the latest generations having an estimated lifetime of more than ten years. We see that out on the streets now. We're having vehicles that we put on the streets in 2020.
We depreciated them over two years. It was still early and so on. Now they have been on the street for five years. So we see that over time with great hardware design, supply chain management, QA and then, of course, operation and maintenance, we get these vehicles to last really, really long. The first years as well, on the regulatory side, it was a bit bumpy.
The market was completely free, no licenses, no tenders or anything like that. No one really knew how should we regulate this, how do we combine it with public transportation, with trains and so on. The market has matured a lot moving into, yes, a tender market dynamic where, for example, in Paris now, we have won one of three slots. Over the last couple of weeks, we announced that we won an exclusive contract Scotland and also in Glasgow. So the regulatory side have really matured, and we feel really good about where we are with Citi today.
It's gone from, in the beginning, being quite contentious in some situations to now being a very constructive dialogue, how can we build urban mobility together and include micro mobility in that. We have focused a lot on cost, both efficiency, unit economics, gross margins and so on, improved that a lot. But since '1, early twenty twenty two, we have also reduced our overhead cost by a lot, more than 40%. And I think the people who are here from Voi agree with me that we're better now than we were a couple of years ago despite almost half the overhead size. So we've really managed to keep, top talent at the company.
They've been around for a long time. They know each other. They know the ups and downs in the industry, and that is, of course, a super, super, superpower in the company. Can you help me, Afrik? One more, one more.
It was the next one. So as I said, we went from hyper growth to focusing on efficiency, turning the company profitable. We went out a year ago and raised a public bond in Stockholm, which is, I think, some kind of testament to that we're growing up as a company. We managed to convince the debt investors that it's a good asset class. We are a great company, the future is bright.
So we raised a bond on €50,000,000 That's trading now in Stockholm as we are on our third, fourth quarterly report. So we're upping the standards on reporting, on governance and compliance and so on as well. And there was a framework of $125,000,000 four years non amortizing coupon on three month Eurobor plus $6.75 We see that the bond has traded up quite a lot. So it seems like the market is liking what we have done over the last years with the quarterly reports and so on. And I think for us, of course, as a company, it was a great way to finance growth CapEx for this year.
But also for us as a company and for the industry, it's, yes, one of the steps that we are growing up. The industry is growing up. People start to understand the asset class. And I think also us being public now with standardized quarterly reports further accelerates that. So what we do now over the coming months and what we have done this year, we, for the first year in many years, have expanded quite a lot to new cities and also new countries, Scotland, as I mentioned.
The biggest win this year was Paris. Of course, we were live in Paris up until twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. We lost the tender in Paris back then for e scooters. Paris eventually banned e scooters, but it's all in on e bikes. So we also went all in to win that contract.
And earlier this year, we won it. So in three weeks from now, you can ride Voya again in Paris. We're launching 6,600 e bikes, our latest generation. So it would be a big scheme, our biggest launch ever. And we have this contract now until 02/1930, once again, an example of how these contracts are getting longer, more predictable and so on.
So rolled out a lot of vehicles, focused a lot on e bikes, focused a lot this year on the rider side of things as well. We see over the last couple of months, we have millions of riders every month, grown the rider base with around 30% year over year. And then as soon as we feel good about Paris, we will go more heavy into London as well. We're live in London with e scooters. We have one or two slots also live.
We're live with some e bikes as well in London, but 2026 will definitely be a London year for us. And then towards the end of 2026, we should be the ClearClear leader, both in London, Paris, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo. So that's very exciting. And this is London and Paris have, of course, mega, mega potential. Looking a bit at numbers. We have continued to grow, and what you see in the staples is 2021 to 2024 and then LTM for Q2 twenty twenty five. So we see that growth is picking up again this year. And the investments we have done in fleet, given our business model, will, of course, have a bit of a lagging effect on the top You will really start to see the full effect from 2026, which is quite nice position to be in. We're also in a position now with where very, very few competitors can invest in the same way. Vehicle profit margins, which is our revenues minus direct charging costs, maintenance and so on, have improved a lot.
You see from 2021 to 2024, we or to 2025, we're almost doubling the vehicle profit margin at the same time, as I mentioned before, as we have decreased overhead costs, both on market level and on central level. So we're starting to see great operational leverage in the business and more and more to come. So $25,000,000 in EBITDA last twelve months up until Q2, EBIT positive as well. So overall, as you probably hear on me, we feel good about the trajectory at the moment. Big thing this year, as it was the first year, we have been able to invest in new CapEx really since 2022.
We have rolled out three new vehicle models, the Voyager eight, which is our latest generation e scooter, around 35,000 new Voyager eight, I think, this year, all over Europe. It's really, really great to see that despite our older vehicle cohorts, the ones from 2020, 'twenty one, 'twenty two, yes, we can operate them profitably. What we see now with VoidRate and the bikes here is that we have another leapfrog, both on the rider side, rider retention and rider feedback and so on, but also on the operational side when we look at like important input metrics for us like rides per repair, rides per task, which eventually turns into EBIT, EBITDA and full company profitability. We are testing two e bikes here in London now. One is the one in the middle, which over the last two years have been our flagship bike.
It's slightly larger. It's very robust. It's stable, great unit economics. But what we also have found out, developing so much hardware over the last couple of years, in the quest for robustness and longevity, we think that we're starting to tilt towards slightly too heavy vehicles. And we see that especially when we're talking to users, female users, smaller users.
So we're also experimenting now with lighter form factors such as the Explorer Lite beer to the right. France, we were it was almost game over for us in France two years ago. We were down to one city, Marseille only. Marseille has been an amazing city for us since 2019, but we yes, we have lost our foothold there. We invested now over the last one years point in city relationships and really understanding what the cities look for, what the users look for and so on and have seen almost like a magical comeback in the market where we have won pretty much all important markets now in France over the last year that have been up for grabs: Grenoble, La Habre, the Paris Metropolitan area and eventually Paris as well.
What we're also seeing there is that, yes, for the first time since Voy started, we're also able to win this really big eBuy contract, Paris, of course, again, being the largest. So France is quickly becoming our fastest growth market, and it will be a top three market next year on top line, on hopefully profitability as well. So we're very, very excited about Voy in France. I am also very, very excited about AI as probably some others are as well. And I feel that we, at Voy, are at such a unique position where we're not a native AI company.
We're a mobility company. But we have a lot of amazing people. We have built the tech stack in house, the software stack, the data stack and a lot of the hardware stack as well. And I think that some of the biggest beneficiaries of AI are companies like us who can apply AI. Of course, we shouldn't think that much about like how do you build large language models and so on, but we should be best in the world within mobility to apply it.
So we're working a lot with that as well. And at VOI, it means embedding AI savviness in all roles, all teams on a group level, train our employees to become good at applying AI in their respective field. And then, of course, use the strengths and leverage the strengths of LLMs when it comes to speed, when it comes to content generation, but then aggressively mitigate their weaknesses, hallucinations and so on. And then use that and embed LLMs and AI in products where it makes sense, not where it doesn't make sense, in operations, in our rider experience and across the business. And we're starting to see great, great effects from that already.
I have a lot of funky examples with boys and Vivier and so on, but I was advised to not do it, but I'll just give you one small example. So Moi doing millions of rides every week, tens of thousands of feedbacks from customers every week. Historically, that was something that our customer support agents went through one by one. Of course, missed a lot. They tried to tag it and so on.
How one can use LLMs now is so exciting when have big data mass and data volumes. So this is an example that we call LLMI feedback instead of customer support agents going through and tagging and so on. We have infused LLMs and embedded LLMs. This is an example from Marseille where we see a spike here, an anomaly, in refund requests. So this is just one example of how you can use LLMs as a company like us.
And then, of course, that should feed into the city manager in Marseille, the product team and so on, so we can take quick actions rather than waiting for weeks as it was before when customer support agents had to go through the data. So we try to be on the forefront. We try to take everyone with us in the company and more to come from Voya on AI over the coming months and coming years. So what's happening in 2027 now? So we're building from a solid base.
We continue to see that, yes, we are in a situation where regulators are rather coming to us and cities coming to us, asking about micro mobility, how they should implement it, how they should regulate it and so on, which will be a tailwind in 2027 as well. We have seen that competitive pressure has been reduced quite significantly. I think when we applied for Paris the first time in 2020, there were 20 or 22 competitors. Now even in the very high value markets, we're down to a few and perhaps one or two that are for real competitive, yes, competitive threat to us. So we think that will continue, which is great. We will continue to build out the platform. So we're still heavy e scooters, some e bikes. Next year and going forward, you will see a more multimodal voice stack to basically meet the cities and the consumers where they are with the factor they want. And finally, we will continue to be very disciplined around how we spend money, how we improve operating margins and digital profit margins and so on and, yes, build a much larger company with a relatively fixed cost base. Thank you.
Thank you, Fredrik, for an update. We will now open the floor for Q and A, and my colleague, Dennis, will lead.
I thought I'd kick off Q and A with a couple of questions from me, but then I'll open it up for questions from the audience. Taking a step back and looking at the last, especially two years, I think we're all positively surprised or at least very happy about the growth acceleration. We are growing almost 30% year over year right now and you are at the same time generating significant cash flows from operations. What's your view? What was the most important driver in that shift over the past years? Talked about a lot of the data points, but some general reflections would be next to here.
Do want to start?
All right. We tried to get Dennis to send the questions in advance, but he refused. So we haven't rehearsed. He should take the answer. No, I think, as I think we said at one Board meeting, imagine a company that over the last two years improved profits as much as they grow top line. And that's very rare. I think what we actually managed to achieve is we doubled the profits more than revenue growth. And I think it's like almost unheard of I think.
And the driver behind that to your question I think is relentless focus on operational efficiency out in the field. I think we have close 150,000 vehicles that needs to be served in soft factories. And through a lot of probably not over the last two years, but a lot of it's not so much AI, it's basically automation, algorithm driven, we call it, task generation. So the task that should be done out of the physical industries, that's all automated now. I think that's one of the reasons.
And I think the second, I think, reason was what Fredrik just mentioned. I think we dare to reduce the overall overheads earlier than anyone in the industry. And by that, growing the gross margins while reducing costs, and that's the problem.
And there anything to add, Fredrik?
No. To Matthias' point, VOY is a massive optimization play. And I mean one of the motes is also that it is a massive optimization play, but you don't only have to optimize online. You have to do the massive optimization play off line as well and getting it out through fleet specialists, mechanics, winning cities and so on, which makes it very, very difficult to compete with at the stage we are now.
I'll do one more for me and then open up. Obviously, you mentioned the bond.
We don't have to go into specifics. But just thinking about the impact that it has made to a semi public company. You're reporting on a a quarterly basis, your books are open. How has that impacted you and what's the significance of that, would you say?
I mean, I touched upon it because it was funny before we raised the bond in our Board. Some of our investors not have he knows a lot about bonds. Some of the other investors were more skeptical. Like a company like you shouldn't have your numbers out there. Every quarter, competitors can take actions and outcompete you and so on.
But eventually now I mean, now we have had three good quarters as well. But it's upped the bar for reporting how to measure things in the business, how to talk about the business and that implemented for the first time really like standardized metrics in the micro mobility world because no other of our peers have been reporting that in this way since they're still private or not done it. So I think it's been great.
I think as well, I mean, of everyone keeps saying we're semi public because You cannot be half fragmented. But no, so we adhere to all the more rules and what have you, so and do the reports. I think the big shift, I think, was mentally because I think perception of our industry has not always been fantastic, particularly in the financial markets, having some burden and some of the other players go bankrupt. I think what we felt last year was I think someone needs to take the kind of flag and plant it and show the world that micro mobility can be profitable, that we can get a high return on our investments and capital. So I think we said let's try to change the world,
Thank you. Now questions for the fully public company,
Thanks. George here from Pareto. So my first question is on the bigger fleet that you have now with the bond deployed. Has this bigger fleet impacted the utilization at all? Or has the market been able to sort of digest the increased fleet?
So far, it has digested it well. I mean in Q2, when we started to deploy the fleet, there are always some teething issues, and it takes some time and so on to get everything up and running. But so far, it's digested it well.
Yes. And when we look ahead, is it continued growth in existing markets and expanding that fleet in existing markets or more into new markets?
I mean we're open to both as long as we can do it with high confidence conviction that we will be become profitable in that new market relatively soon. So over the last couple of years, expansion into new markets, new countries have mainly been winning first, then we invest. Scotland was an example of that where we first won Edinburgh and Glasgow. Now we're putting resources behind it rather than going completely blind into new countries.
And just my other question is on the financing here. So obviously, this bond gave you opportunity to expand with growth CapEx. But how far are you willing to stretch balance sheet and leverage to continue to grow with debt? So that's the first part of that question. And the second one is if let's just talk then.
I think for me probably. No, think, I mean, the first thing you really have to remember is that even though we raised the 50,000,000 that the great bank, Pareto, was part of HealthNest. We I mean today, end of Q2, had one time leverage net debt to EBITDA. So it's very rapid cash flow generation from the new CapEx that we have. So I think you will always see the seasonal spikes when you buy vehicles and it goes up and then it comes down pretty quickly.
I think overall a business like this, I mean there are much more brilliant financial minds here, it feels like the volatility of the industry is pretty high still, generally speaking, if you compare to many others. So we would probably rather want to keep it on the lower financial risk side. So probably two times maybe or something like that. But that kind of that could change over time. Time for me.
But I'd rather be a little bit careful on the financial leverage. Sure.
And just a final question for me. Other than growth CapEx into the fleet, what's the most important leverage here for growth? Is it utilization or price mix? Or you can touch on that.
If I start and then Frederic, I think the way we look on the European kind of part the world now, not taking into consideration growth outside Europe for a second, there's huge amount of untapped demand both because there are bikes that we're rolling out to scale right now. I think we are only about 10%, more probably on bike penetration of their own tire fleet. So you have a huge untapped potential in new consumers that don't drive e scooters. So that's one thing. And the other part is, if you look at the overall penetration in key cities in Europe, how many people are actually using micro mobility compared to the size of the population, you see huge discrepancy there as well. So for us, the real growth driver is not to buy 100,000 more vehicles, it's basically to have more more active users and more penetration in cities like Berlin, in cities like across entire Europe. If all I think we someone tried to do that exercise. If all cities in Europe same thing. So there's huge potential in that way. So penetrating cities more, getting more access to bigger user bases within existing cities is my father.
Any other questions from the audience?
We have one here from Boris. Mike, should we do that?
Hi.
Well, you are mostly a scooter company. Well, France spent, what's your view on sort of the regulatory vision with other European cities spend scooters? Do you see yourself that you have 50% bikes, 50% scooters in three years from now? How the sort of unit economics changes, how far away from your target?
Okay. I can start. So I've always seen us and continue to see us as a mobility company that operates light electric vehicles. We started with e scooters because we saw great demand and so on.
And we also are big believers in focus, which is why we didn't go into a lot of other modes like year two, year three, year four, but we waited to nail down the e scooter business, then now the last couple of years added on the bikes as well. And this year, 2025, is really the breakout year for bikes at Boyd, and that will continue. And a few words on the regulatory side. I think the future, say, fast forward three years from now, it's clear now that all cities will have micro mobility in some shape or form. Most cities, I think, will have both e bikes and e scooters and some other ones as well.
Some cities will only have e bikes, some cities will only have e scooters, like Austria is an example where pretty much only e scooters now, Paris, only e bikes. So we'll see this mix. But micro mobility will be around at scale in all cities. Your second question was around payback unit economics.
It's a good question. We had that question when the Board members are almost all the time to on that question. The way to think about it, I think, right now is that for us scaling day by week right now, you've seen largely similar gross profit per vehicle per day for bikes as you do for scooters largely. That because they're more expensive to buy the bikes. But that's when you look at it from a micro perspective. If you take a bigger view on all of this, I mean, London is the best micro mobility city in the world for Lyme.
Thank you.
My question will then be, how do we make it a busier moment that takes place in other locations as well? What do you do like and how do you cooperate with the local government like to increase utilization rates?
I mean the funny thing, if you take a city like London, London has had is kind of austral moment, but on the e bike side, we see that bike usage over the last couple of years had just skyrocketed. You see that it's a combination of infrastructure and bike lanes and protected bike lanes are very important for uptake. They're very important for uptake because users feel safer and so on, and we tap into other user groups that feel unsafe riding out here next to cars. The second part is, of course, on the product side. We see that with the improved products over the years, we have increased the total addressable market and the type of user groups we can tap into.
And then thirdly, it's around operational excellence. I mean, the better we become operationally, the lower production cost per ride we can have, we can, of course, give that back to users and increase the TAM through subscriptions and things like that. So those three things, it's infrastructure, it's product, it's operational excellence, it's of cost.
Any more questions from the audience?
More questions
from the Before
that, I realized another important thing is, of course, where we see that demand and numbers are really, really strong. Those cities often have some kind of they are maybe difficult or expensive to have your own car through road tolls, through taking away space that naturally, of course, moves consumers to other modes of transport. Stockholm is another example of that.
Yes. So I have a question on growth as well. So how big of a share has been coming from increasing the vehicle size and how much has been kind of increasing the ride per vehicle and where do you see this trending in the coming years?
So a little bit linked to the previous question I think generally speaking, I think this year given that we scale the fleet so fast, think most of the revenue is coming from vehicle fleet size growth. But that leads you sometimes to think about okay, you have to just buy more and more vehicles. The thing is this year is a little bit special because we grow so much. So we actually started to put the old the V3x from 2020 in Tier three cities as well.
So you start seeing a mix and mix of all of
And then a question on subscriptions. How big of a share of your revenue is coming from subscriptions?
Sorry, I have to jump in. But if you look at the number of active users, they're up much more than the fleet size growth. That's what we have been focusing on.
Questions on subscriptions. How big of a share of your revenue is currently coming from that? And is this something you aim to increase over time?
I should probably know this. But I think around 30% is coming from subscription type products, passes. I think as Frederic mentioned, I think we think about us a little bit like not one to one, but a little bit like Amazon. If you drive down cost massively, then you could afford to give away more rides on passes that are less more inexpensive to do. So the quicker we can drive down cost per ride, the quicker we can expand that share as well.
So over the next few years, it should be no reason why it's on 50% plus.
It looks like that's it from the audience. One final question for me, which I'll probably answer as well as up here in management since. You obviously track several KPIs, and you've got the job right. In one year's time when we meet again, what's the one KPI that's going be on top of mind during the period from now until then? Where do you want it to be by next time we look to you on?
Cash flow.
If you ask, since Jake is here, EBIT growth. No, but I think, I said it before, I think user focus has been a big shift for us this year. So rides per user, revenue per user, engagement, revenue per user.
Excellent. Thank you so much for your presentation for the time. Thank you.
Gentlemen. Now from Europe, we turn have to Egypt. Please join me in welcoming the Co Founder and CEO of Breadfast, Mustafa Amin. BNB owns 7.9% of the company and first invested in 2021.
Breadfast is the leading online grocery brand in Egypt, and we are thrilled to back Mustafa and his team on the journey. Mustafa, it's all yours.
You, Alex. And yes, very happy to be back to the VNB Capital Market Day this time in London. I think last year was our first time. We enjoyed it, and we learned a lot. Many familiar faces this time and also new faces that I am very, very looking forward to learning from throughout the day.
Thanks to the B and B team. Thanks to Per, Alex, Dennis, Katharina and everyone else. Thank you for hosting us, and thank you for your trust. Before I start, I'm very proud and super grateful that I am presenting the hard work for our team back in Cairo to you today. My name is Mustafa.
I go by Moose. So feel free to call me Moose. I'm the Co Founder and CEO of Breakfast. What's breakfast? And what are we trying to do?
We are on a mission to build the most sophisticated consumer supply chain engine for Middle East and Africa. We started oops, okay. Yes, I apologize. I think there's something with the font on the PDF. But yes. So we started baking and delivering fresh bread to customers' doorsteps at five a. M. In the morning in Cairo, which is one of the most populous cities in the world.
That was eight years ago, and we used to deliver bake and deliver the bread at five a. M. In the morning. Today, eight years fast forward, breakfast is the largest online grocery platform out of Egypt. We are building customized selection for MENA.
When we started baking the bread, the thesis was let's start from the hardest part of the consumer supply chain. One day shelf life product, not B2B, but B2C, to customers' doorsteps. And we knew that we're going to build a nightmare of operations to make sure that we're starting from the hardest part of the consumer supply chain. Again, one day shelf life product fresh to customers' doorsteps. Many people ask how is it for Egyptians actually to get their grocery shopping done.
First of all, grocery in Egypt is $100,000,000,000 market, dollars 100,000,000,000. Second, 72% of the market is actually unorganized. As a company, we love broken supply chains, and that's why we started baking the bread ourselves. And the thesis also was if we're going to aggregate and only build the technology, if you're aggregating from a broken supply chain, the result is going to be broken customer experience. And that's why we took the very, very bold step by building the whole supply chain ourselves.
But again, how is it for Egyptians to actually get their grocery shopping done? We have to go for our weekly grocery shopping by visiting at least five different destinations. I have to go and visit the fruits and veggies guy. I have to go and visit the butcher. I have to go and visit the poultry guy.
I have to go and look for the corner store, the Pop and Mom shop to go and get my long shelf life dried products and more, right? It depends on the grocery basket. What breakfast is trying to do is to bring the fresh and the nonfresh, right? It's a real one stop shop to customers' doorsteps. So we're trying actually to save all the time for the customer to make sure that we are building the full supply chain for them to get the bakeries, the pastries, the poultry, the meat and all the long shelf life products to customers' door stocks.
Just wanted to elaborate the problem that we are trying to solve for the customer. And guess what? Everything is fully digitized by technology. The very beginning of the slide, these are my cofounders. There's few of us actually coming from tech background.
We used to build in machine learning and deep tech and all these crazy stuff. And after years of building this in emerging markets, we realized that we actually were not building the product market fit for our customers because we have always been influenced by everything coming and should be in the cloud. And after years of failures, I personally failed four times trying to build in tech. I start to trite all the mistakes of the failures that I've made in the past until I realized that actually we're not solving any of the customers' pain and that we really have to go and take bold steps to solve the real problem for the customer. So since we started, we were trying to find the intersection between technology and the real world, right?
Because there is big life that's happening every single day. But how can we intersect and link between the two worlds? I think this has been the challenge for us. AI for us is not a new thing. Actually, the first use case that we started to develop, that was almost five years ago, so even before the hype.
But again, because the whole background of the founding team is coming from technology, at the same time, these crazy guys are baking bread, right? How to link between both worlds has been the idea from day one. I'm super proud today that we really implement a lot of in house machine learning in the supply chain engine that we built from day one. As an example for this, when it comes to supply chain, we started to build our own demand forecasting models, right? And by the way, fresh is very, very tough.
You will see the numbers, but for a company like breakfast that's growing year over year in three digits manner, 50% of the operations actually is on the fresh side and 50% of the non fresh is 50% of the operations is on the non fresh side. And guess what is our blended waste? It's sub-two percent, sub-two percent. This is thanks to two things: one, the technology that we've built in house and also the hard work of the team that's actually monitoring these technologies. As you see on the supply chain side, it almost led to 45% improvement in demand forecasting, 4% revenue uplift, 12% gain in the FP capacity utilization.
And as I mentioned, when it comes to waste, it's sub-two percent. Throat detection recommendations, and we have unlimited use cases that we use every day in our machine learning engine. I'm also super proud that today, we process almost 4.5 bytes a month of data. This is basically so massive. Why?
Because we own the whole supply chain. We own the first mile logistics, the mid mile logistics and the last mile logistics. Our vision is from bread to everything, from the hardest part of the consumer supply chain, one day to literally bring everything that's needed by the household to their customers to their doorstep. On the very left side, it's a breakfast supermarket. This is our core.
And eight years ago, we started from like offering three SKUs only from the bakery category. Today, we deliver more than 7,500 SKUs to customers' doorsteps. We promise our customers sixty minutes delivery, 20 fourseven. Our organic average delivery time is around thirty minutes. Breakfast coffee.
We actually deliver hot coffee from our fulfillment centers to our customers' doorsteps, but we also ventured into consumer facing outlets. Very proud that a couple of weeks ago, breakfast coffee alone as a vertical became larger than the most famous global coffee brand in Egypt, just as a vertical in terms of revenue. So we have our consumer facing outlets. We also deliver coffee from our own fulfillment centers to customers' doorsteps very, very hot. Breakfast care, we started to venture into personal care and cosmetics products.
This is a vertical that's massively growing month over month. We introduced it almost seven months ago, and we're super excited about it. Very healthy margins and also very, very important for our main persona, which is the household mom. Breadthouse Kitchen. From the same fulfillment center, we don't only deliver hot coffee or watermelons or bread or fruits or veggies, we actually started to deliver hot food from the same fulfillment center.
So it's still in pilot, but all the initial indicators are giving us very, very strong confidence that we should actually go and build on this front more and more. And then breakfast shops and then breakfast pay. A few weeks ago, we received the final approval from the Central Bank of Egypt to start operating breakfast pay. What's breakfast pay? Our first product in the product roadmap is open loop prepaid card.
If you go and look into the Egyptian consumer behavior when it comes to banking, still a big part of the Egyptians day to day is on the cash side of things. Britax actually is the only player in the market that has built very strong frequency, retention, trust and consumer logistics. So the idea behind this is actually to start opening bank accounts for our customers at zero customer acquisition cost because we already have the user base. And we're super lucky that our main customer is the household mom. And the household mom basically controls somewhere between 60% to 70% of the consumer wallet spend every month.
And guess what? Most of the household moms, they don't have a bank account yet. This is still one of my very favorite charts that was a tweet by Paul Graham, one of the best venture capitalists in the world. And I call it the emerging market tweet. I read it last year, and I will read it again.
Poor Graham. He tweeted and said, This revenue graph illustrates the two dimensions in which startups are spreading into more domains than traditional tech and into more countries. This is breakfast, which delivers bread and other household essentials in Egypt. And yes, this actually the tweet was actually in 2021. That was in February 2022.
And when you compare this tweet, Paul Graham, a few years ago to the revenue scale that we were able to achieve, People thought that this is actually an inflection point. I still tell everyone, breakfast has not experienced the real inflection point yet. And I'm going to provide the reasons for this. So we're actually still warming up. Last time when we met, these were the numbers.
Egypt was hit by a couple of devaluation over the past few years. I'm super thankful that now Egypt has been stable recently. And like we know that over the coming few years, it looks super strong on the macro level. We can also provide more reasons on this. But that was last time when we met.
And today, when it comes to the annual run rate of revenue, we're presenting it in GTV, but actually, we own the inventory, so it's revenue. So not the difference between GTV and revenue is only the VAT, 190,000,000 in revenue run rate. This is a 98% year over year since we've met last year. Today, we perform close to 1,300,000 orders a month, native transactions. We're getting close to 400,000 monthly active households.
We are currently running 47 fulfillment points, 35 omnichannel coffee locations and breakfast employees, more than 7,500 employees, given the nature of the end to end supply chain, as I mentioned, the first mile logistics, the mid mile logistics and the last mile logistics. And yes, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, this is really for us still the very, very beginning of the story of breakfast. Today, the grocery market is at $106,000,000,000 expecting to be north of $140,000,000,000 by 2027. And one of the actually references that we enjoy reading is the Goldman Sachs Economic Research and expected for Egypt to be among the world's largest economies by 02/1975. Massive growth.
And we want to make sure that breakfast is going to represent a very decent part of this story. Another exciting fact, Egypt is 120,000,000 people today. 50% of the population is 25 years old. So imagine the opportunity of the gross consumption, building a super local, super customized brand that's going to be part of the journey of every day getting things done for the household. Another metric that we feel very, very proud of, our private label penetration of revenue.
We believe today, breakfast is the leading private label penetration of revenue operator in the online grocery sector globally. We're getting close to 40% of private label penetration of revenue. And this tells you one thing, it tells you the trust and the relationship that we've built with our customers that they come to us for our exclusive selection and our unique products. In the traditional world, brands like Costco or Carrefour, you can actually find, yes, 30% penetration, 40% penetration. But when you move this to the online world, you cannot find these numbers as private label penetration of revenue.
Another favorite story, our long term GMV dollar retention. From Cairo, from Egypt, we are leading the global curve when it comes to the long term GMV dollar retention. It tells you that we have a real product market fit that's not built on promo codes or discounts. It actually has been built on trust. More than 107% long term GMV dollar retention after twenty four months since the customers joined the platform.
Last year, when we met on the fulfillment point store EBITDA, our blended CM3 was actually at 3%. A year later, it's not only a growth of revenue story, it's actually also a story of much, much, much stronger profitability on the store level. Today, we are super proud that we are representing the best unit economics in the world when it comes to this sector at 10% store level EBITDA. Yes, in conclusion, an actual year over year growth, 73%. The team is working very, very hard to make it three digits for this year as well and 107% in long term GMV dollar retention, 37% in private label penetration and 10% on the fulfillment point EBITDA.
Lots of exciting stuff. This is still the beginning from bread to everything. Thank you so much.
Wow, what a story. Thanks, Mustafa. Let's open up the floor for some Q and A. Jorg, would you like to take the question? Thank you, Alex.
For the support first, and thank you also for the question. Actually, just to give you an idea of the devaluation impact, today, as of this month also, we're going to exceed actually a very, very good target on revenue. Let's call it 200,000,000 for now. Actually, would have been, if we remove the devaluation factor, 500,000,000 in revenue. Sometimes it feels like negative.
But to be honest, we are super positive about it for one reason. This has built a very, very strong resilience in the company. Lots of companies when macro like goes into the wrong direction, they actually take some decisions, right? And many of these companies, they might say, oh, won't look good. Actually, these environments, we take the opposite direction.
We have doubled down and tripled down on our execution. And that's why the profile we are presenting today on the revenue and on the profitability side is super encouraging, and this has built a very strong immune system in the company. I call it the emerging markets vaccine. So Brexit now has a very, very strong emerging market vaccine that whatever will happen, we will continue doubling down and tripling down on this. We're also super lucky that we're actually in this.
Also also super lucky bread, fruits, veggies, things actually that when things get tough, people actually consume more, right? We are not doing any luxurious like services. We're doing what our customers need every day. Egypt is 120,000,000 consumers. Think of it close to 27,000,000 households.
Our market share at the moment is close to what? 4.2%. So it's still scratching the surface, right? And this company is going to generate real multibillion dollars in revenue over the coming few years.
And so maybe a question
So it has been unfortunate for other players in the West for a couple of reasons. One, if you look at U. S. And Europe, the market is already very organized. So for any online player to come and compete with very well established brands, is very, very tough.
This is one. Two, labor cost per hour is very, very tricky. And when you look at the AOV and the labor cost ratio, breakfast today actually globally is the healthiest. We have a very, very healthy ratio between the AOV and the labor cost per hour. So by the way, this is not only related to Egypt.
Egypt maybe is best. But across MENA, each household, there is a consolidation when it comes to the precious and power. Each household has three and four people left together. So the AOV is actually consolidated on the household level. At the same time, when it comes to labor cost, it's very, very affordable.
That's why we are super fortunate that we are actually correcting the supply chain. And as a result for this, we have a very, very healthy unit economics. Again, in the West, labor cost per hour is very, very challenging. AOV is not consolidated on the household level. And at the same time, it's super competitive when it comes to the organized supply chain.
Yes. I would add, in Egypt, right, do we have food aggregators that compete with us. But these food aggregators don't have similar to actually aggregators in London worldwide, the exclusivity in the products and the manufacturing side of the business. And that will continue to be a move. Mostafa shared about the immense work in private label that we are doing.
That is the number one acquisition driver in our business. That's the number one retention driver in our business. And I think if people are familiar with aggregators around the world, exclusivity of supply is critical. And that's certainly something that we are head and shoulders above relative to competitors in the market. No one in Egypt comes close.
So that sort of to having that sort of moat, we feel super confident that we'll just continue to win share.
And to quickly go back to the previous question. We are in investment and growth mode at the moment. We're very happy. Recently, we were joined by EBRD, NovaStar, as part of the P Series C. So there is a very strong momentum at the moment in the business.
And like these growth rates will continue like to be seen in the business for the coming few years. And as you mentioned, like a big part of the driver here is the scale that we are building. Thank you. Helpful. Thank you.
Question in the back.
Question in the back.
Sorry, we couldn't get any bread today from Egypt. We'll work hard. We'll prepare maybe next time to fly some bread from Egypt.
Look forward to the next event.
Can you talk a bit about how much of Egypt you cover today?
How much of fulfillment center costs, geographical coverage? And also maybe with the compensation for the drivers or the delivery people.
How does that work in the Egypt people?
Yes.
I believe we can talk about the payback. And also, I mean, now, the grocery side, we only have 0.2% of the market share, right? We talk about $100,000,000,000 market. We're now at $200,000,000 like revenue run rate. So give or take, it's 0.2%.
This is on the market share side. And yes, for our payback on the fulfillment points, we're talking now six months payback, which is very, very healthy when it comes to CapEx and payback. As Eugene earlier mentioned, we actually now open our fulfillment points at profitability. Yes, Vasant Narasimhan, if you want to add?
Yes. It's something that's very unique in the Egyptian market. We talked about $100,000,000,000 a TAM. Unlike Europe, that like 70% of that is actually concentrated in the current footprint. So today, we are operating in Cairo, Giza, Alexandria and Nigeria.
Those four cities are actually covering $70,000,000,000 of the market, that's 70% of population, 70% of retail spend. And so it's actually unparalleled globally, right, where you have so much concentration around the Nile Delta, it's a large country. But for a logistics company, it makes it much more efficient for us to serve. And what it really makes it it's very favorable for the company where when we talk about footprint expansion, that footprint expansion is actually 95% all in existing areas. And so as you open more locations in existing areas, you obviously are shorting the distances that your drivers have to deliver, you're actually able to better curate the selection to the consumers in a smaller location.
And by the way, you have excellent visibility into what that demand looks like ahead of time. And so the risk to opening these locations is a lot less. It's a very unique part of operating in Egypt, but it's actually allowing us to have a lot of confidence for print expansion because it is actually like serving mostly existing areas that we cover today. Could you talk about what EBIT margins in Egypt's grocery industry overall are? And do you happen to know a statistic on blended waste as a percent of revenue for the gold industry?
We don't have Egyptian EBIT like off hand, but we can probably look into it like historically, I think globally, you typically look in like the 5% to 6% range, which is obviously quite a thin margin business. And so Andy, then the second part of your question? And so the blended waste percentage of revenue.
Yes. So the disclosures like worldwide that you'll see at the retail level, typically in the high single digits. But that is going to be at the retail level. I think the very exciting part of our business is we have sub-two percent waste, but that's not just at the retail. That's at the mid mile, that's at the warehouse, but also including the manufacturing.
And so that for us is special. It's the reason why we use technology and ultimately how we can actually get lower cost
would you have 25% of that?
Over time, certainly all of them, And we when we look into the footprint today, like what are the drivers of upside from where we are, A lot of that is scale of the existing locations, right? So how do you move from, call it, 100 orders per day towards kind of 1,400 orders per day? That's one chunk. And we know that retailers in Egypt from our team, their product margins are kind of north of 30%, which is significantly higher than what we achieved today with like fast moving consumer goods companies. So that's a significant step.
And on the discounts, we are still onboarding significant amounts of new customers on a daily basis. We see that as our customers evolve and mature over time, the discounting that is required to keep them on platform is significantly less, right? And so as the cohorts mature, you start seeing less discounting. So that is another step from where we are today. And then finally, on the delivery expense, as we open more locations, we densify the areas that we're operating in.
We shorten the distance that drivers need to travel, and that actually increases the efficiency and the drops per hour that the delivery associates can do. And that essentially allows you again to make a step. We've chosen to share a lot of these savings with customers to date because we are trying to become the lowest cost operator in the market. We're getting close to price parity now with the biggest retailers. As we kind of break through that market, then we start accruing more of those savings to our P and L.
And I think that's kind of where we get confidence that north of 20% EBITDA per allocation is very real. Boris? How do you acquire new customers? And also like what's advertising as a percent of your CapEx spending? And also like well, basically, Cairo or Egypt have big huge high rates. So in some areas, you cover properly, like anybody can download your app, right? It doesn't mean that you will get quickly fast.
So when you open a new fulfillment center, do you do some local posters like on the streets? What's your especially customer acquisition? Or how important it is in the overall CapEx and spending? How do your customers know that you opened the fulfillment center and now they can get their config fast while two blocks away, they come probably or I don't know? Yes.
So majority of our acquisitions actually are organic. It's close to 70% organic acquisition. So actually, we've been supply constrained. Until now, we're super supply constrained. One of the most famous like things about us is that we are always out of stock for this reason is that people actually try to come to us because we have super unique selection either on the bakery side or in the pastry side or in the whole overall private label stuff that we come up with in the market.
So these products actually go very, very viral, and people then go and download the app, try to find these products, right? And then if they find it, this is great. If you don't find it, then people complain, which is, of course, something bad and good. So this is on the customer acquisition. And then we have several traditional customer acquisitions.
No. Mean online, of course, we have online paid ads like in the performance like marketing engine. But locally, I mean, in the neighborhoods, like we don't have this yet. We used to have some field marketing activities, right? But not nationwide, not yet because if we do this, I think demand will increase heavily and we don't want to be in a position to be more supply constrained.
So we try to mix between growing organically in a very good manner and at the same time also, of course, spending like money to identify the customer acquisition and the payback and all these metrics that help us like smartly invest and deploy resources.
In terms of your existing users, can you share with us your key statistics like retention and things like that?
Yes.
I'll quickly just go back on your acquisition point. It's unique in our business, but we don't think about demand really, about demand generation in our business. All of the work that we do and all of the drivers that we see in driving all top line growth is actually always in the supply side. So if you correlate the expansion the speed of expansion, the speed of locations opening, we the faster we get locations open, the demand kind of falls in because, as we mentioned earlier, most of that is actually going into serving existing customers, but just serving them better. When we think about what then drives like demand to those locations, it's actually always around product.
And so very few companies have this front label business. We always lead with product. We have delivered discounts in the past. We find that they are much worse in terms of like cohort acquisition, cohort retention. When we lead with products, the latest kind of filmed milk, the latest dessert, the latest bread, the latest bakery, recently launched salads and sandwiches ranges have been incredible drivers of the business.
That's actually what drives acquisition retention. And so it's a little bit different to like your typical e commerce business. From a consumer perspective, the average consumer is ordering 3.5 almost four times a month, so essentially once a week. Those AOVs now are $11 They're kind of increasing to $12 The interesting thing is as you look through the cohorts, right, and you kind of isolate new from the existing users, Masaba showed you the chart on the GMV retention. And what that is actually telling you is frequency and spend increases over time as you build more trust with the consumer.
They spend more time on your platform exploring what else you have, right? That's one of the major disadvantages we have with an offline retailer. We have to work harder on discoverability, that's a fact, when your retail space is a phone screen. But as people spend more time with us, they find more we push more product to them, and we're able to kind of win more wallet share every
time. But
in terms of We're running out of time, Boris. We'll have
to take a question in the break.
On to the next company. Thanks a lot, Bo and Eugene. Thank you.
Thank you, gentlemen. Our next speaker is Nicolas Grave, the CEO of Boke Direct. Boke Direct is Sweden's go to marketplace for beauty and health services with over 13,000 merchants and 2,000,000 customers per month. And we are very excited to continue backing this fantastic company. Nikolas, it's all yours. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Thanks for the introduction and thank you for the support. Yes, so my name is Niklas, I'm CEO of Let's see if I get the right person here then.
Hello?
Booking Booker Connect is Sweden's largest booking system. Being a booking system means that we have a two sided business model. On the one hand side, we are the main SaaS ERP provider for over 14,000 merchants in Sweden. On the other hand, we are the consumer marketplace for consumers to explore, discover, book and pay for beauty and healthcare in Sweden. And we every month have 2,500,000 active users on our platform, unique active users, which I like to put in perspective considering that Sweden is a small country with a population of 10,000,000.
So it's actually a quarter of the population. But I think it gets even more exciting if you consider that the majority of our active users are women and then you divide 10 by two, you get five. If you take away the non consuming parts of the women population, we have almost every women. We have a positive relationship with every Swedish woman and they love us. We have an NPS of 68 and an unaided brand awareness of 39, meaning that if you ask a Swedish person what can you use to book or find beauty and health care in Sweden, they will answer book a direct.
I think that's a super powerful position to build on going forward. Head office in Stockholm, we also have an office up in the Arctic where we do sales and customer success. And we're backed, as mentioned, by VMV Global and Sprints. Before looking at the present and looking in the future, let's have a look in the rearview mirror. So as you saw on the previous slide, we were founded in 02/2019, were acquired by Hitta dot se, which is a Swedish Yellow Pages platform.
And then the Sprint became the majority shareholder. After that, Boca Direct saw some really good growth, both organic but also through I see the headline is a bit shifted, but also through selected M and As where we focused on buying platforms that were focused or SaaS platforms that were focused on Hair. The reason for Hair is it is a relatively high speed and high value booking segment. At the same time, building the app and building the marketplace. After that was done, we took in an additional €30,000,000 from VNB and Sprints.
And the focus now has been to merger the platforms into one to find those synergies, also to ensure that we're getting a closer relationship with both the consumer and the merchant through payments, making sure that we control that paying relationship. And looking forward now, again, building on the fact that we have almost every Swedish woman on our platform that uses on a daily basis but use us for beauty and healthcare, that is where we see the value that we want to bring to our merchants and consumers and to ourselves going forward. Yes, so looking at our product then, as I mentioned, we're a two sided marketplace where we're on one hand side, we're an integrated part of every merchant. We're the classic one stop shop. Essentially, all you need is pair of scissors, an accounting system and you can start your business, which means that we support development of local business.
We support women businesses throughout the country, which is actually a powerful thing for us. And what do we bring to the table? So we bring a staff and calendar management system. We bring payments. We bring medical journals, if that's required for your type of business.
And we do also marketing. So it is truly a one stop shop. And we now support that customer base with a dedicated customer success team ensuring that every right customer has the right experience depending on the size and the needs of that customer. On the other hand, we also have the consumer side, again being an integrated part where women use us for all health and beauty. They do their nails, they do their hair, they do their makeup, skincare and so on and they use us not only to book but also to explore and to find, to book and to pay and that's the relationship that we want to strengthen even further going forward.
So where we are today, we are well, undisputedly number one. We are much bigger than all our competitors combined, and we have a market share of around 35% and still room to grow. There's still a offline market where people use pen and paper and there's still customer segments where we can build in. This is very focused on volume. We now like to try to focus on also not only volume but actually what customers do we bring in, what value or GMV do we bring into the customer base.
I think it's worth to mention as well, actually I can do this I'll do that on this slide. So naturally we do have competitors and we do have churn but through the strength of the marketplace we know that quite frequently we let our users our merchants churn. They get to try another platform but we know that they will come back to us because when they leave, they will lose customers because customers want to book through Booker Direct and I think that's the strongest proof of value creation that we can give to our merchants that we actually have a benefit, that we actually generate revenue, we're not a cost. So looking a bit at the financials, 2025 has been a year where we have invested in ensuring that we will have future high growth. We've been investing in volume.
So the growth in 2025 is solely built on volume, whereas growth previously has been majority on pricing. We've also invested in AI marketing automation, well, automation in general. And I think we talked about earlier what you can use AI for and naturally we use it for customer success, co pilots, content creation. But what I think is even more exciting is that we also will make it available for the merchants. So a single hairdresser in Northern Sweden will be able to start using AI.
And at that point, Bookadext is actually a data company. So we have consumed data on the consumption patterns of every Swedish woman that we can make available to a merchant. What are they willing to pay? What should the price be? When do they want to pay?
How do they want to pay? What do they want in terms of long hair, short hair? What's trending at the moment? Is it volume? Is it not volume?
That's a lot of data that we can put in the hands of every single merchant throughout the country. Yes. So looking forward, the plan hasn't changed. We are looking down a number of trajectories that we are working with but I think if we were to make one point about focus here, it is utilizing the Power of our Marketplace, utilizing the relationship with Swedish women and utilizing that to drive revenue and to drive value creation for our merchants, for our consumers and for ourselves. A few examples of what that could be is solving problems like late cancellations which is a huge problem within the beauty industry where the merchants lose a lot of money.
We have the marketplace with their potential customers and can help them to actually make money even with a late cancellation as an example.
Thank you. Thank you, Nicolas. Happy to hear about the progress so far. Bjorn, do you want to lead the Q and A? Let's do a quick one.
I will. Thank you a lot, Nicolas. And we also have Bjorn, another Bjorn coming up, who's the CFO of Buchenwald.
I'll start off with a question for you, Niklas.
So you joined us CEO essentially a year ago, a little bit more, maybe thirteen months. Give me sort of your
you've been here a year. You've seen
the challenges and the opportunities. What's your sort of top three takeaways? And what you're excited for, for the next sort of leg of this journey?
Yes. No, it's been I mean, always coming to new companies, it's always interesting to dig down into the facts of that company. And I think what struck me was what I mentioned here, this huge potential of having a positive relationship with such a homogenic target group that has pretty much absolute penetration of that market. And I think the growth opportunities from that is mind blowing for me. That's one side.
The thing I take with me is that while the team is amazing, it's a true love of the product, the pride of the product and I think continue to build on that is lots of fun.
Super. And as you alluded to,
I mean this year has been a year of
investing. We're still doing sort of close to 25% EBITDA margins. We think there's a lot of room to grow there. We had the Strategy Day just the other week where we divided where the sort of maturity will end up. So maybe if you can discuss a little bit where you think that sort of margin potential is in a few years out?
Yes. I think the journey we've been through since we have the investor has been from we had those numbers last year. So some of you might remember that we started with negative double digit margins and really building scale. I mean that's what we proved over 2023, 2024 and 2025. I think we reached a level now where we know that our unit economics work.
We know that we acquire at good rates, we know that we can grow the volumes. That's what we've invest in during the year. And know that we have several drivers of revenues going forward. I think if we play our cards right and maintain our strong marketplace position, there's no reason why we should not be able to generate the type of margins that strong SaaS companies and strong marketplace providers do, which is closer to 1520%. Any questions from the audience at this point? Bharat?
Thank you. Just a couple of questions for me. One is around the current pricing with the commission model. What is that exactly? And how is it granted in the past?
Because you said that pricing was one of the main drivers. In the future, what would be the drivers of your growth? Like is it going to be pricing or acquisitions or anything else?
Yes. I think focus I'll start with going forward, and I'll let Bjorn talk about the price changes historically. So going forward, it will be a combination of pricing and volume. What we've done this year when we're investing in volume is to make sure that we have a very make sure that we have a funnel for small businesses, for big businesses. We know exactly what CAC and we can invest for each specific customer and making sure that runs like a growth monster.
And that's what we're doing currently, and that will continue and increase. So that's the clear expectation. In terms of pricing, BookerNet hasn't changed pricing for three years almost now. So that is something naturally that we're looking at. So that will be a route going forward.
But I think the main one is volume and driving growth through customer acquisition. In terms of M and As, I mean, we don't close the doors. But at the moment, we see that by investing smart in merchant acquisition, we are slowly crushing competition, and that's cheaper than buying them.
And your
first question was on the revenue model, where the revenue comes from. So essentially, we're standing on three legs. It's our SaaS business, it's our marketplace business and it's our payment business, and it's all integrated. But starting with the SaaS business, that's subscription based, pretty traditional SaaS model, where the company comes from being a calendar management tool. And with our module offering that just keeps growing, we naturally grow our MRR on our user base, but that's recurring monthly takes, pretty traditional SaaS model.
The two other parts is the marketplace model and the payments part of the business. Those are the two legs that have been growing a lot over the past years. So on payments, we know that all our merchants have payments, sometimes through another provider, sometimes through us. Here, for us, this is about capturing part of the customer's wallet. And essentially, what we do is we provide online payments, we provide in store payments, we provide an integrated solution for the market, for the merchants, and that's like any payments business margin driven yield on the traffic.
And this is a place where we have huge room to grow. We currently process around 15% of the total GMV going through the marketplace. The third leg is our marketplace model, and this is actually two sided. So this is an opportunity for our merchants to advertise themselves on the marketplace. So essentially, yes, a classifieds business, if you will, you can buy more exposure.
But it's also transaction based somehow where you can market services at discount rates, commissions. And this is a part of the business we've grown or we've actually strengthened the fundamentals of the business a lot over the past year with higher user retention and more users on the marketplace and where we see that we have a pretty strong market fit on the marketplace models that we have launched, and this is an area we think we can develop a lot in the future.
Thank you, Nicolas and Bjorn. And with that, we're going to break. They will be here, so four questions afterwards. We'll go to break and resume for the viewers at home in ten to fifteen minutes. Thanks a lot.
Welcome back, Please take your seats. Please take your seats, gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen. Okay. Welcome back. Hopefully, no more fire alarms.
Let me introduce our next speaker, Nicolas Brusson, the Founder and CEO of Blablacar. VNB invested in Blablacar in 2015 and currently owns about 13.7%. We are very excited as Blabla Car continues to lead the global long distance carpooling market with over 2,000,000 members presence in 22 countries. Nicolas, please, the floor is yours.
Thank you, and thank you, Per, for inviting us again. It's been almost ten years, a bit more than ten years, in fact, you're right. So we'll both present. I'll give a quick intro, then Pierre Antoine, who is the Chief Strategy Officer, is going to tell you what we do essentially. I think most of people probably know what we do, but where we're at, how the company is going.
And I'll come back essentially at the end to tell you where we're going and that's going to lead to Q and A, I guess. So one of the slides I'd like to start with, which is I think it's been the same slide or some version of the same slide for many years now is to remind us what we're trying to solve, like why we exist. And fundamentally, it's good to remind ourselves that mobility in general, not just cars, but mobility is roughly a third of global emission. And if you look at within mobility, you realize that private cars is essentially like the biggest emitter of CO2. So it's the most poorly used asset if you think of it with 1.9 people on average per car in Europe, that's more or less the same or worse in The U.
S. Or in other markets. So that's why we started the company fundamentally. We thought that's kind of interesting that if you think of that car, those empty seats as having value, not just from an environmental standpoint but from a financial standpoint, you can create potentially a very large network based on those empty seats in those cars driving around anyway. So today, have like a pretty strong impact not just by offering carpooling on the platform but offering other means of shared transport on the platform.
So today, if you look at out of the 100 plus million members using Bavelacar, we have like an average of 3.2 car occupancy and we lower CO2 emission. So with that, I'll pass the mic to Pierre Antoine, who's going go through part of the presentation. I'll just come back, as I said, a bit later.
You. Pierre Antoine, Leading Strategy and M and A at Babla Car. Quickly telling you what we do today. Babla Car is basically a company that matches what we call supply and demand for our markets. Supply is both C2C and B2C.
On the C2C side is really people like you and me taking your car to go somewhere for weekend or whatever for usually quite a long distance, let's say 300 kilometers or 400 kilometers and you can publish your trip on our platform to have more people in your car and to reduce your costs. So this is really a C2C play and this is the starting point of the company as Nicolas just mentioned. And then we extend it to a B2C play whereby we are aggregating some bus operators and now train operators on our platform to allow our passengers or the demand to select what they prefer for a particular trip. It can be a carpooling, it can be a bus or a train, can be a mix of both. So this is what we call the supply.
And then on the other side of the spectrum, have the passengers. And our community that we built is mostly people who we like to call sort of a cheerful type of community, quite on a price sensitive end, who are looking for an affordable and environmentally friendly way to go from A to B, as I said, for sort of a long distance trip. And we are in the middle and our main competitive advantage is really the tech. More than half of our staff cost today is people working on the product and technology. So not really so much a commercial type of company but more of tech at heart.
Today, have mostly two main brands, the one that was created when it was when we started up the company about a decade ago, BlaBaccar, which is really famous in countries like France, Spain or Brazil or India today. And we also acquired a company called Obilet last year, and we're keeping the brand under tech because it's the market leading OTA, as we call it, online travel agency in Turkey. So this is the company that people use to buy a bus ticket, flight ticket, now even a hotel room in Turkey, and they own about 90% market share on the bus market. So this is really a brand that everybody knows in Turkey. To summarize a little bit where the vision is for us, we aim to become the category leader of what we call the intercity segment.
You know that for city transport, Uber is the market leader. For hotels, booking.com, for shared accommodations, Airbnb. I should have put VOY for micro mobility. You can trust me and do that next year. But for the Intercity Transport, it's hard to think of a global leader today because of course there are local competitors in all the markets that I've mentioned.
There is no company having just one global tech enabled passengers to book a train or carpool or a bus globally and we aim to take that spot. There are a few macro trends, I'll go quickly on that, that are sort of tailwinds for Blabla Car. One of them is the fact that for the bus and the train markets, those are huge markets where we today have a really small market share. The second is that the carpool business, it is something that is really unique. Many companies try to do that.
There's only one that is doing that at scale. It is BlaBlaCar. Also when it comes to buses and trains, it is becoming more and more deregulated with more competition, especially you can see that in Western Europe where there used to be only one train operator per country. Now there are more and more in all the countries. And this gives more space for middlemen, for platforms that can help consumers compare prices, compare the options and find the best one.
And this is also one of the things that is a boost for Blabla Car. And finally, because we are one of the few companies in the transport business that helps reduce CO2 emissions, not increase it, it can also help us back some or find help from governments in different countries. We had one collapse that we had in France that we might talk about a little bit later. But actually, we also had in the same time a new scheme in Spain, which allows us to generate some revenues, as you call them, some green revenues. And we also will be able to generate some CO2 credits and sell them in Brazil and India and Mexico.
That's the plan. So indeed, we do see that because carpooling mostly is a mode of transport which allows to reduce CO2 emissions, we are also able to generate revenues from that. Telling you a little bit more what carpooling is and how it works because it's not so easy for people who have never used the product. It is really a C2C play whereby somebody like you and me, if you want to go for a weekend or want to see your family, you are able to publish your trip on the platform on the app and then the app will find you some passengers that can go and either do the same way or do half of the way and then you can take them along the trip. And the idea is for the drivers to reduce the costs by sharing the cost of the precision of the car, the gas and the toll and stuff like that without making any money from it.
That's why it's C2C and not B2C. We are making sure that the driver cannot make a profit from such trip, which allows us to have no issues when it comes to taxes or insurances because it's not a business, this is really just on a cost sharing basis. The business model simply put is, if I'm a driver and I'm asking for, let's say EUR 20 per seat, we might sell that ticket or that seat for EUR 25. There's EUR 5 for the car and EUR 20 for the driver, which allows the driver to share costs, as I said. One of the main assets which really surprised me actually when I joined the company because I used to work for booking.com before in Amsterdam is the fact that because this product is so unique and because there is no competition or it's direct competition in the carpool business, we are able to create a sort of captive demand where we don't need to pull a lot of money into marketing to acquire users, especially passengers.
Today, as you can see, on the carpool side of the business, around 5% of our traffic, of our bookings come from marketing, which is really low. I cannot share numbers for booking because I don't think that's public information, but it's a lot more than 5% that I can share. And even for Airbnb, which, so to speak, has sort of more purposeful brand than booking.com, it is a lot more than 5% as well. So this is something that is really unique and that ultimately translates into financials as well because you don't have to repay a lot the customers that we are onboarding on the platform. Snapshot of where we are today.
Before 2019, before any acquisitions in the bus space, we were 100% carpool business by definition And today, we are more or less fifty-fifty between buses and carpool, including the acquisition of Obilet, which I mentioned earlier. So we diversified a lot our portfolio, allowing customers to choose more and more in different countries. And so we did acquisitions in Eastern Europe and we also launched organically our bus marketplace in Brazil, knowing that Brazil is a huge bus market, a lot more than what you can think of in Western Europe. And our growth in Brazil is quite phenomenal. I think we'll just add on that later. Leading today to, as I said, a spot where our business is more or less split fifty-fifty between bus and carpool. Finally, on my side with the impact of Blabla Car, which we are quite proud of, Auditors validated our approach to estimate that around €2,500,000 of CO2 emissions were saved, thanks to Blabla Car in 2024.
And I've looked at other companies who claim to have such impact and EUR 2,500,000.0 is a lot that I can say with confidence. On top of that, we are enabling our drivers to save some costs. As I mentioned, it was a bit more than EUR 500,000,000 last year. We are also proud to say that we are creating some human connections. Usually, if you take a flight or a bus, you would not talk too much to your neighbors or maybe you do, but it's not so obvious.
If you take a carpool, that's how it works. You have to talk to the person before you actually take the carpool to agree on the meeting point or just to agree on where to go. And then if you take a five hour drive with your driver or passenger, if you don't talk, it might be a little bit long. And that's why you have lots of stories of people who actually met and got married, thanks to Bladacar, and it's quite incredible. We also have stories of people who admit that they have shared a secret to the person they have carpooled with, things that they have never seen before or the fact that people say they trust more their carpool drivers or passengers than their own neighbors or stuff like that.
But it's sort of funny to say, but it also means really something. That's also why we have a captive demand, as I mentioned, the fact that we don't have to pull marketing to have people on board and that's also we have a huge NPS Net Promoter Score. It's around 65 today. So although it's sort of a niche market, which is the carpool, not bus and train, but carpool is sort of a niche market, but people who use the product really, really love it. They see the value of it when it comes to the environment, when it comes to the savings they do and also when it comes to the human connections that this entails and this is also something that we are proud of.
Last point and then I'll leave you there. I didn't mention that, but if you think of bus and trains, it is quite efficient, especially for trains for, as we call them, top axis. So if you go from a city to a city, especially if it's a faster train like in Western Europe, nothing beats that. But if you want to go from a village to a city or village to a village, you don't have any bus and you don't have any trains. And this is really where Carpool can thrive.
And what we aim to do is to have a platform where passengers can compare the different options between trains versus in carpool and depending on what they need on what makes sense at that given time, they can choose between carpooling bus and train or even combine them. This And is something that no other company can do. Thank you. I'll leave you with Nico for the strategic vision.
All right, thank you. It's good to be on the other side of that presentation from time to time. So thanks for that. I'll finish pretty quickly on where we're going from that, the next step and the next few years of the company. I guess the good news is it's more of the same.
It's a continuity to what we've been doing and I guess saying for the last few years. And the way we think of it, it's essentially we have three blocks today. We have the carpool block, so essentially like continue to develop and monetize Carpooling, which is the core business and what we started with. Expand on the transportation vertical, which means mostly like adding buses and train. And then once you have that, essentially you've built a pretty wide audience and then you can do what I call the next gen OTA, which is essentially all the other services you typically find in an OTA, accommodation being one of them.
So if you look at that, it's also interesting because you have three different characteristics as businesses. If I look at Carpool alone, if we were to isolate purely what we do with Carpool, today, it's highly profitable, right? So today, that's kind of the EBITDA and the cash flow generator for the company, and it's fairly mature. So it looks like a stand alone, it would look like a private equity deal that you could leverage. And essentially, what we do today, it's two things.
It's really sort of like growing the existing monetized markets. And in emerging markets like India and Brazil, we're still building the audience that we're just starting to monetize in some of the market. But today, I would say on this one, the risk of execution moving forward is pretty low because we have like a pretty established playbook. We already have like a pretty large audience. So it's really about like pace of monetization of that audience and we place that not to break essentially the C2C marketplace dynamic. Then what we've been really investing on in the last sort of four, five years now with a bit of a parenthesis with COVID is how do we build on top of that the B2C layer that Pierre Antoine was describing, which is connecting buses, connecting train for the same audience. So today, started with Western Europe.
We've done that also in Eastern Europe. We're now doing that in Brazil. But the point is really, as Pierre was describing, to leverage the fact that we have free traffic essentially on the platform. So once we've built the brand with carpooling in countries like, again, France, Spain, Brazil and so on, we have like a huge competitive advantage compared to a local OTA, which is the fact that we don't pay for the audience and we have very strong repeat of users on carpooling. And those users are essentially the same guys also booking buses and train and other type of transport.
So today, that's a faster growth vertical within the company. That's something we invest in. So we put more marketing into that than we do into Carpool because we are accelerating. And I would say something, it's more of the growth play of the company. Maybe to visualize that, we have two countries that are pretty important for us.
So it's Brazil and India. What you see here, so in light blue, I don't know if you can read the numbers, but I'll describe them. Light blue is the number of passengers booking carpooling trips in Brazil, same thing for India at the bottom, right? So you can see that pre COVID Brazil, we had roughly 5,000,000 passengers on the platform booking couple trips. In 2024, we had 16.
This year should be 18 something. And we started to build buses in 2022 in Brazil and that's the dark blue you see growing on top and that's going to double again roughly speaking this year. So that's kind of the speed of carpooling being deployed and then we add buses on top of that. The revenue generated today by Brazil when we talk about P and L numbers, today is close to zero because we're just starting to monetize carpooling. So to some extent, like the cost is already built into the company but the revenue is yet to come.
Even more impressive right now is India. So, India this year, in 2025, which is not on the chart, we do about 20,000,000 passengers and we're still growing above like around 50 year on year. So we feel like India is going to be like a massive market for us and we have not yet started to build the bus layer. So a big part of like the future growth of the company but also future EBITDA as we monetize the light blue is on this chart. It's not just those two countries, by the way.
It's the same story for Mexico at a slightly lower scale but also countries like Serbia, Croatia are not yet monetized. So to give you a sense, we have roughly, what, euros $270,000,000 of GMV un monetized today, growing still pretty fast that we can monetize in the future. And then I would say the last stage of growth, which we are already exploring in France and to some extent in Turkey is once you have all of that essentially and you have this sort of captive audience, then you can start to build like a larger OTA play, which comes from like combining trips together and also exploring things like accommodation, which we're doing for example in Turkey where we have like a pretty fast growing accommodation business. So here, you're more the venture side of the company, would say. Those are pretty small today.
They don't impact the P and L all that much but it's pretty high growth. Those are like the twenty twenty four numbers in a nutshell and then we can dive into maybe more numbers during the Q and A. So essentially, it's close to €2,000,000,000 €1,800,000,000 of GMV being transacted on the platform, 135,000,000 passengers should be a bit above €150,000,000 this year. The company has been profitable since 2023. And very important as well, it's close to 40,000,000 active users, so active people generating those trips.
So sort of the audience we work on is pretty sizable. And then again, like for us, we see that as the pool of audience we can sort of cross sell to in the future. So that's it for us. I think we have Q and A, but thanks.
And this one works? That works too?
Yes.
Perfect. Great. Tested that. Thanks for that presentation, both Nico and Pierre Antoine. I'll start off with a couple of questions from me and then open up for Q and A from the audience. I'll start off on the point where you kind of ended or the second to last point around a large share of the GMV not being monetized. You mentioned the CHF $270,000,000 figure. I guess majority of that will be Brazil, India, and there will certainly be Mexico. Where do you see that how do you see that figure kind of evolving in the next, say, five years? And what share of that will be monetized when we meet for Vindi Capital Markets Day two thousand and thirty?
That works. Yes.
So no, that's a good question. I think you I mean, when you look at the dynamic we see in LatAm and specifically in India, think that number is going to be a lot larger. I'm not going to venture and give you a number, but it's going to be a lot larger in five years. And to some extent, I hope that I'll be able to say that not everything is monetized yet. I'll explain why.
It sounds scary, but maybe it's not. The reason why is those should be monetized in five years. But if we look at that today, we had like a pretty strong product market in emerging markets. So if you look at sort of the heat ratio of launching core pooling, it worked in most markets. You have a few exceptions.
But in general, it worked pretty well. And today, there are a lot of markets we have not tapped into. Rest of LatAm, we should do pretty easy. Mexico works. Brazil works.
We should do the rest of those countries. And there are lots of places we have not yet explored like Southeast Asia, so like you take Thailand, Indonesia and so on, where essentially if you look at like the transport layer in this market, the size of the population, the car ownership, mean any rational metrics you would think those countries should have like a pretty good product market fit. So to some extent, we should replicate the playbook. And I hope that in five years, we have sort of like those new cohort of markets growing and essentially India and Brazil are more into the phase of now it's monetized and we have buses and we're thinking maybe about, as I said, like was the third phase of growth on accommodation and other things we can do. So, but clearly, if you maybe different way to answer the question, clearly, we do see very high potential in those emerging markets.
And if we pose on India, I didn't say that, but India, we spent zero marketing. We don't even have like anyone on the ground. We don't even have a subsidiary. We get to a point where you have 20,000,000 passengers using the product in India. We don't make money from it, not making an effort just having localized the platform in India.
And you get to the point in India, which is part of like the discussion and so on. So it feels like 20,000,000 in India is where we were when in France we had €1,000,000 in terms of like awareness in the country. So that's pretty interesting. So we'll see where it goes.
Very exciting. I guess we'll see by 02/1930. Another question that we have or a topic that we've written about a lot in the past year in our quarterly reports at BNB, you alluded to it a bit, Pernod Blanc, is around NHSN certificates. Simultaneously almost, there was a backlash in France and there was a win in Spain. Just in your own words, can you explain, first of all, what these energy savings are?
Or maybe just broadly speaking, just green revenue, as you mentioned, a bit what happened, but also how you're thinking about it today moving forward?
Yes. Maybe I'll take that as well. So essentially, like this green revenue that take two different forms, if you think of it. One is this energy certificate, which is a European directive. So it's kind of a byproduct of CO2 credit, but it's measured as energy saved and not CO2 saved.
It's roughly the same at the end of the day, but that's the way it's implemented in most European countries. And in countries outside of Europe, we place something different with our CO2 credit. At the end of the day, it's kind of again measuring the same thing. So for a long time, France was a pioneer in that and we had sort of like essentially built like a scheme that has been running for almost ten years. We started that in 2012 actually.
And we have this sort of constant revenue in France from these energy certificates, which really grew in 2023 because the government back then was still in the spending mode And they felt like, okay, we need to build like a corporate plan and push that in France. Now for those watching the news, the government in France, and that's changing every other month, is not in spending mode, it's more in cost cutting mode. And the environmental measures get cut, right? So essentially, this thing went pretty brutally from being like a good source of revenue to going up to crushing to zero. And it's a bit paradoxical in the sense that at the same time, we have many wins in other markets, mean Spain has launched it.
So now we have something live with any other certificates in Spain. And we are in the process, we've been approved as a I mean essentially to CO2 credit framework that's been approved around carpooling and how we're going to deploy that in other markets. So I think the way those green revenue will look like taking the same time frame like 2030 is we'll have probably that in like '3 to three, six, seven, eight different markets, but maybe we've like more resilient lines of revenue and not a single point of failure. So that's what happened. Clearly, you look at the financial profile, it could be like a bit of like up and down with EBITDA, which I think is going to sort of normalize over time.
Thank you. Any questions from the audience? Prahl from Cantor.
Thank you. Just a couple of questions from me. One is around this un monetized JV that Have you tried monetizing it at all in either Brazil or India? And has it led to, let's say, a lower number of rights or lower number of users?
And then secondly, on the TAM opportunity, have you how do you think about that? Like how would you suggest that we think about it? And have you had a formal kind of survey done to calculate the TAM? I'm speaking for the carpooling business.
On your first question regarding the monetization of carpooling, you mentioned two important markets for us, Brazil and India. So far, we have not monetized those countries. And generally speaking, first, we realized that it takes a lot of time to create what we call liquidity. So the idea to have enough supply, enough demand to match such supply and demand, that takes a lot of time. And what we've seen even in the first country that we launched Carpool in, which was France, took us years to be able to have enough critical mass before actually monetizing.
If you monetize too early, you might just break the liquidity and your business just might die. That's why we believe that as long as there is high growth, we're happy to see it continue to grow before actually monetizing. Today is the day where growth in Brazil is not so high in a way that we believe this is the right time to start monetizing. Growth was about 20% year on year in Brazil when it comes to the capital business. And this is when we believe this is the sweet spot to start monetizing because we are working on that right now.
But it's just the initial phase, so not much more I can say about this today. Areas for India, growth this year is around 55%. It was around 70% last year. We're happy to see it grow. I mean if we were if we had like a cash issue and we needed the cash and we need more EBITDA, we could actually monetize almost overnight.
But we believe that waiting a few more years before growth taps off will create more revenue long term and more value for the company overall. That's for your first question, if it helps. On your second one regarding the TAM, that's the questions that I asked when I joined the company, what is the TAM of carpooling? And I think the answer that Nico gave me was, I don't know. And in a way, it's an easy but fair answer in the sense that there's only one company doing that in the world that is at scale, it's the black car. So you could say, oh, the time is our GBV, but it doesn't really make sense because it's growing and it's still a niche market. So another way to think about it is look how many cars there are on the road.
This is sort of the TAM because what we do is enable people like you and me to share seats in your own car. So we know the potential is huge. That's true. But to go from a potential to a real market, you need to educate people and to make them try, which is hard. And that's why it's I would be a bit, maybe this is not a really fulfilling answer, but it's quite hard to think about the TAM. Maybe last thing I want to say is that when combining when combined, sorry, with the Percent Train offering, which we are doing now, you immediately expand your TAM by quite a lot because these are markets where you have lots of players globally, and this is really where you can take your carpool audience and monetize it more by offering them other motor transports.
Sure. Just a quick follow-up. In terms of the train business, the commissions there, if I'm not wrong, are like low single digits. Is that like also does that also mean it's lower margins compared to the other businesses? And do you expect then, therefore, margin dilution in the future when it goes? Can I take that?
So good question. And indeed, on a stand alone basis, the train market, especially in Western Europe, is not so interesting in terms of margins. So you would think, yes, on a could dilute the overall margins. But the thesis for us is that it is a pool of demand that then can fuel other businesses, mostly the carpool business, which is highly profitable with really high margins. So we don't really think of it as a stand alone business at all, and we would not have started with that if we wanted to just to be if we just wanted to have a, let's say, interesting business because it's not really interesting stand alone.
But if it creates synergies with our carpool market, if we can see that by offering train options, we have more people on the platform and some of it convert also to carpool, then it can create a really profitable business for us. We are still quite early stage for the train because we only started connecting Spain operators last year, and we connected SNCF in France only this year. So it's still quite early for us. But the thesis is really the idea to combine train and carpool, knowing that many people use Train in Western Europe a lot more than the carpool. It's a much bigger business.
And combined, it can be a really profitable business for us.
Yes. So a couple of boring questions maybe, but BNB has spoken about 20% to 25% tax growth for last year and that the year to date figure in terms of budget is ahead of budget.
So
just add some more color there, maybe what are we talking about in terms of pro form a growth this year over in 'twenty four? And then second question, you obviously hinted about the future IPO in the coming years. Is that still on the table? And can you say anything about the timing?
I'll take the first question, the boring one, as you mentioned. When you so first, year to date overall, I mean there are two ways we look at it. One is versus budget, and we are above budget on almost all metrics, especially on profitability. And then when you look at year on year growth, I think today, we are around plus 15% in terms of PACS and plus 25% in terms of gross margin, which is our the main metric that we look at internally. So that's quickly a few numbers on the numbers.
Maybe I can let you take the question on IPO.
Yes. No, we don't have the IPO date yet. And I mean, it's not really on the agenda short term to do that. I think we still need to do I mean, if you think of it, I think the business, we need to be a bit more predictable and maybe a bit more monetized. And maybe like we need to be able to demonstrate that the EBITDA margin is probably a bit more stable in some geos.
So for me, we maybe I don't know how to quantify that in terms of time, but maybe a couple of years away from that. And again, like you also have these questions, like going back to the question on market size, which is sort of leading to that, like how do you project. That's the tricky part with some of the emerging markets. So it would be good to see like how far we go in Brazil, how far we go in India. Because to tell you the story of India, we started that ten years ago.
Ten years ago, we had a local team, we've done some marketing and we struggled to get to even below 1,000,000 passengers. We decided to shut down the local team, leave the product, This not spend any year, like in the month of August, we've done 2,000,000 passengers in one month. So more in a month essentially than I mean, three times more than what we were doing ten years ago. So to go back to the time question, like nine, ten years ago in India, it was apparently pretty small. Now it's apparently a lot bigger because car ownership has increased, online penetration has increased, road infrastructure has improved and so on.
So I think part of the equity story is also leading to that. So I think we need maybe like bit more sort of proof of penetration in those markets. And then as you launch new markets, whether it's LATAM, Southeast Asia and some of new verticals, I think the story becomes a bit more predictable to some extent in terms of growth, which is more opinion, I guess, for Fabry's investors. So I would say a couple of years away from that sort of like confidence in the model to some extent.
Appreciate the color. Thanks.
I'm Mike Kalby from Baring Ventures. What metrics do you track to try to understand how many of your carpooling customers are using the other products and services? And what do you consider to be your target in that respect? If you want to be an OTA, you're going to end up having to have people think of you as a multimodal. So what do the metrics show?
Yes. So essentially, maybe Jean Francois can double click on this one, that's a really good question because the whole thesis is the fact that, I mean, what sounds pretty intuitive is someone looking for a carpool between Rio and Sao Paulo is in fact not looking for a carpool but looking for a solution to go from A to B. And what they probably express is they're looking for some cheap and cheerful to sort of the low cost segment of transport. And hence, if you offer everything else, they should recognize your platform as the platform to do that. So essentially what we measure over time is the progress of like within cohorts, how many people stop booking other means of transport and we look at that from, okay, what how did they enter into the platform?
Did they enter as a carpool user or as a bus user? Obviously, in the early days, mostly as a carpool user because that's the key metric. But we see how many essentially transition to that. And the other way to think of it, it's purely a CAC to LTV game, right? So you acquired that couple of user, passenger, for the most part, with a pretty low CAC.
And the question is, as you start monetizing carpooling and as you start offering buses, you increase the frequency of that user? Did you increase the LTV over time? So those are the metrics we look at. And the markets which may be the most at scale are either Eastern Europe or France. So I don't know if you maybe double click on that, but that's the key essentially like to demonstrate that we do increase that CAC LTV and that LTV becomes a multimodal.
Yes. Maybe to give you one concrete example because we are doing really that today in Brazil. So Brazil, this year, we'll do around 18,000,000, 19 of seats just in carpool. And when we survey such our users, do you actually take buses as well in the year? But most 100% of them say, yes, we also take buses one time depending on what they want to do.
But they never use buses with us because we didn't offer buses. So now what we want to do and what we want to measure is how many users are doing both in a given year, both carpooling and buses. We are starting from zero. And we know that, ultimately, the goal could be 100% because they all do both. Any person who does a carpool also does a bus trip in a given year.
And we are only in the quite early in this curve because we launched the business not early just three years ago, really, Brazil, the bus business. But there's a huge potential because we know that our users use both. And the idea or at least the economic thesis is that we'll only have one marketing budget for both. So we have sort of economies of scale, whereas our competitors do need to spend marketing because they don't have any demand through the carpool business, which is our core advantage.
We've got a question up here from Horst.
You partially answered the question I wanted to ask, but could you be a little bit more specific? Like if we take France or Europe as a monetized developed market, what's the difference in margin between carpooling and sort of train bus, like the margin here and the margin there? Question number one. And number two, like you said that you want to be like a new type OTA. But in a way OTA is not a very good lucrative business like if your value is really in pooling then maybe instead of sort of thinking about doing this trains and other things you should do in Tunisia, Thailand or whatever spend your money on doing something which is really making money and shareholders' value.
Maybe I'll answer the second part and I'll let you go on the more maybe analytical first part. But I tend to disagree on the second part because if you look at like a lot of C2C marketplaces, you take Airbnb, it's just more blended, but Airbnb started with like a C2C marketplace. Today,
is
a mix of C2C, maybe composing, I don't know if people have the numbers, but 10% of the 20% of the GMV and they became like a very powerful short term distribution rental. That's what they do. That's B2C. That's fundamentally an OTA play. And on that sector, they're both doing pretty well.
So I think OTA stand alone on a non I mean, sophisticated concentrated asset like Trane that was mentioned is a terrible business. I think if you look at an OTA combined with C2C where you have like very strong inbound traffic, very low CAC and so on, I think it becomes a pretty strong business. So if we look at our business in Turkey on buses, the metrics are just very, very good and the profit margin is very, very good and you end up with a dominant position. So I think combining the two is pretty powerful because you get and you need to find the right equilibrium, But I think you get the best of profitability and scale and you end up being mainstream. So I do think combining is not new.
It's not that creative. It's what's been done essentially in many of these marketplaces before. And to some extent, we could you're right, we could say, let's just be a pure play card pudding. I think it's just harder long term to define that as a category though, right? So to some extent, like being public and so on, I think you need to broaden your category a bit.
So it helps essentially broadening the category to travel. And then you have lots of peers and not again, no tiers, you have good and bad peers. Booking is a pretty good peer and Airbnb is a pretty good peer.
And if I may continue on that thread, Nico mentioned really large companies which are obviously successful like Airbnb and Booking. But even if you think of smaller OTAs, which you might not know, such as Obilet, which we acquired or even Kickbus, which is the Obilet of Brazil, so the platform that people use to buy bus tickets, those companies are growing and very profitable. So they are actually creating a lot of shareholder value. And we see that, although they are much smaller companies than Airbnb or booking.com. And on your first question, if I answer really quickly on the numbers.
Gerry speaking, one way to look at the margins is to think of the take rate. So out of the price that passengers pay, the GVV or the GMV, how much gets to blah blah car? In carpooling, it's roughly, let's say, 20% in Western Europe. For bus, Western Europe, it's around 10%, 10% to 15%. And for train, I believe on a standalone basis, it's around 3%.
So indeed, it is very small. And as Nico summarized it, it's not a really exciting business unless it creates synergies with the rest of the business. That said, to be clear, although we have mentioned a lot, Trane, in the presentation and through your questions, it is today quite small for us. It's a team of less than 10 people, and we don't invest in marketing because the idea is to use the Carpool audience to sell other things as
well there. So I would not
emphasize it too much because it is not really the core of what we are building right now.
I'm sorry, Boris, we won't have time. We do that offline, sorry.
But one final question, but just
because he raised his hand, and then I think we need
to move on. We're already here. Linking a little bit back to the old question, carpooling and train and buses doesn't make sense, but getting down to accommodation and hotels, I mean, for me as an investor, it feels like a slippery slope. Why don't you focus on what you're really good at and leave the rest to someone else? Because you're spending money on something now that might be profitable in three, four, five years, while we as investors would like to see more of where you're good.
And carpooling is so big and you have just scratched the surface. Why annoy management and the Board by segment? Maybe less interesting.
Yes. I mean, first, today, like, as I described, accommodation is more like a forward looking thing on the horizon. So today, we're not burning money on that and not yet investing on that. But I think we had the same questions like five years ago on buses and train. And now we demonstrated that business is to scale and it has grown and the economics are pretty good.
So I think it's a fair question. I mean the thing that's interesting is if you look at what we are building, think we are really, really good at building like a very large audience, terms of like number of people and number of users, but they don't transact all that much on the platform. And if you look at most platforms that have done that in the past, OTS have done that for sure. When you get this sort of like high NPS, high customer brand and so on, you do have the temptation to go for higher ticket price and higher ticket price is accommodation. That's why booking.com won the space, by the way, because they moved to accommodation through an M and A, but they moved to accommodation pretty early on.
So I think there is value in doing that without burning money. So if it's and again, to me, it's just like aggregate some of that on the platform and leverage your audience. Think of that almost as advertising. And if they don't buy the stuff, they don't buy the stuff. But I don't think there is so much to be built essentially to create actually incremental revenue and incremental EBITDA through these additional products.
Demonstration I've had today is like what we do the only place where we do accommodation to be here is Obilet, who is like a bit scared in Turkey. Obilet, through bus booking essentially, is the biggest brand in Turkey. We're getting now flights, hotels and so on. Those businesses are very rational. Like if you look at the growth metrics of those two verticals, they're very good and the investment compared to growth is super efficient.
So can we replicate that in other geos? We'll find out, but it's kind of interesting to think about that. So today, would say we're not in that sort of betting the farm on the next big thing. It's more like incremental profitability over time.
Yes. We're long on time. Just a final question for me, which is you already alluded to on M and A because Opeletha has been a
very successful acquisition. It's almost wrong enough to talk
about it more than we are. So you're thinking about building organically versus acquiring. And maybe just a word on Obedet to be honest, if you
get a sense of that business that you
acquired about a year
ago In short, I'm sorry.
No, but super short. I mean, we acquired Obilet because they were the leader in Turkey and Turkey was sort of missing on the map. We had carpooling, but essentially it allows you to get leadership. And essentially they have like this very strong brand on which you can build. So today, maybe going back to your question on OTA, they have very good profitability and very good metrics because they're number one.
So that's also like to me that you can only get to that multimodal play that we described when you have like very strong brand presence, very strong sort of traffic on the platform. If you have small traffic, your CAC to LTV becomes like pretty ad essentially. So Zodulat has been a good M and A because I mean maybe in a nutshell because we also acquired that in 2022. And I've known the company since the beginning. I met the guys when they started the company in Turkey ten years ago.
And the company was in sort of like post COVID recovery. And I think we sort of priced it at the right time essentially. So it was a good move.
Excellent. Thank you, Nico and Parentouin. And yes, round of applause.
All right. Finally, to close out the day, we have Neumann represented by the Co Founder and the CEO, Socrates Papa Floridas. BND has been a supporter of Neumann for many years since 2018, currently owns 13.5% stake. Please welcome, Socrates. Thank you.
Sorry about that. Very nice to see you, many of you again, and thanks for inviting me. So quite a lot has changed since the last time I shared the stage with the other portfolio companies. But I'll start again from the beginning, the mission, what we're trying to achieve with Neumann, what we're building, and that is to help you maximize life. We want to help every single one of our patients to lead a happier, healthier, longer life, and we want to do that at scale on a global basis.
We've been working together now since 2018, which feels like, yes, a very long time that has gone by pretty quickly as well. A reminder for those of you who don't know Neumann, what we do and who we are. We are an integrated holistic health platform operating in The UK. We are a registered health care provider. We work with CQC, the Care Quality Commission.
We employ our own doctors, pharmacists, nurses. We work with the GPHC. We own and operate our own pharmacy. We are even registered with MHRA when it comes to procuring manufacturing medication as well. Since launching in The UK in 2019, we've treated more than 700,000 patients to date, and that number is growing fast every single year.
Neumann today operates at scale with very scalable positive unit economics. We're now we've been growing at triple digit revenue growth over the last couple of years. We've been profitable since December 2023. We operate with an LTV CAC that is higher than 4%, and we also have a very, very quick payback of the market investment we put into that growth. We expect those numbers to continue as we scale into twenty twenty five and twenty twenty six.
The big transformation for the business has been the arrival of GLP-one medications and the treatment for the treatment of obesity. We've been working very closely with the two key manufacturers in this area. It's an area we've invested from day one before the medications even launched in The UK, an area that I'm going to talk about in a second, how we're different and how we treat patients. But just to put at scale, the number of patients that we've treated since launch, we've now exceeded. These numbers are a little bit old actually, more than 100,000 people.
We've helped in The UK achieve a healthy weight. You would more than fill Wembley Stadium actually with all those people. And crucially, the people that come to us, come to us with an average BMI of thirty four. These are people that are obese. The scale of the problem, by the way, is pretty immense.
Obesity in The UK right now affects about thirty percent of the population. That number used to be thirteen percent in the one point three percent in the early 90s. And it's on track globally to reach about fifty percent by 2050 if we don't do anything about it. It is a devastating problem. It has a number of downstream effects and comorbidities related to it.
It's linked to cancer, obviously, to diabetes, cardiovascular disease. So the people that come to us, come to us because they've been suffering with this problem pretty much for their whole lives. And for the first time, they have a reliable way to not only lose weight, but to become healthier as well. So you see some of the numbers of the people that come to us, what the results are that we help them achieve. This is nothing short of transformational.
At the moment, there are about two million patients in The UK on an active GLP-one prescription and Neumann has actually treated a significant number of them. We've also started to measure the impact that we're having beyond what we just do as a business, but also how we contribute to the wider health ecosystem. And we've estimated that last year alone, we saved the NHS about GBP 100,000,000 because these are people that would have otherwise required support, required treatment and that's probably a number we're underestimating when you really properly calculate the health economics for the long term. People that come to us, they might come to us for obesity, they might come to us for a number of other areas, but we're becoming increasingly better at understanding their health in a much more holistic complete way. And what we see unsurprisingly are people with a number of areas where they're either leading a suboptimal, let's say, quality of life or they are at risk of premature morbidity for reasons that are entirely preventable.
And directionally, is where we're going. This is what we want to be helping every single person that comes to Neumann. What we're focusing right now is these core pillars of health. We're helping people with obesity. We're helping men and women.
By the way, I skipped pretty quickly at a really important point in the previous slide that we are now treating about fifty percent almost fifty percent men and women. And if you recall, Neumann started as a men's health business. We are now a unisex brand. A lot of our growth has come from actually treating women that comes with or overweight. And of course, now we're going deeper into hormonal support around testosterone deficiency and menopause.
We're helping people increasingly understand their health and help them with prevention. And of course, we're supporting them not just with medication, but with nutritional support and supplementation as well. Those are the core pillars of health, including, of course, our origins around sexual health and reproductive health as well, where we're to stay focused for the foreseeable future. But these are not the areas of health that we're going to stop. The thing that lets us what sets Neumann apart from some of the other providers in the market, let's say, popular online pharmacies, is that from pretty much day one when we started treating patients with obesity, we followed the holistic care model. We provide access to medication, the right medication for the right person at the right time. We combine that with a diagnostic proposition that helps them establish a baseline of health and understand risk. We complement that with supplementation, especially people that are deficient in nutrients or with people that need supplementation and nutritional support as they're going through their weight loss journey. And we combine that with continuous clinical care and coaching.
What we mean by continuous, every Neumann patient gets access to dedicated mobile app that where a clinical team has full visibility of their health and where they can reach out for support, both customer care support but also clinical support. And each journey that every patient comes to Neumann is personalized. There is no one size fits all. Of course, we do follow guidelines, but within those guidelines, there's a lot of nuance as to what dosage you should be using, what side effects you're experiencing, what is the journey that you need to follow to achieve optimal results for you. And we started in the last couple of years offering also coaching.
And the exciting thing is that when you look at kind of we started from a lot of those things out of best practice, but and with a hypothesis that it would also lead to superior results when it comes to retention and adherence and health outcomes, and we're finding that to be the case. We don't charge separately for this set of services. It all comes under one subscription price, which is reflected according to the treatment plan that you own. But it more than pays for itself because the people that are following this program achieve superior weight loss, superior health outcomes and, of course, retain better as well. This is some of the numbers that we're most proud of.
Market leading NPS of 68. That's a significant uplift from where we were a couple of years ago, consistent rating as excellent on Trustpilot and an increasing volume of word-of-mouth and referrals that results in new patients coming organically through people that they know that have seen success in human. What's also very encouraging and a lot better is that losing weight is such a visible result that you want to talk about, whereas some of the more stigmatized internal issues that we used to help with are not so easy to talk about. And that's kind of where we had started from. I'm going to go through now some of the core capabilities, both technical hard capabilities, but also some of the, if you like, softer ones that have enabled us to get to this place.
First of all, we take pride in the fact that we are one of the leading voices in The UK when it comes to changing perceptions around obesity. It's still a condition that is very much stigmatized. People that live with obesity or overweight, incur discrimination. It's one of the last areas where it used to be okay to actually shame somebody. So we put a lot of emphasis.
There's also a lot of still resistance in people accepting that using medications strategically to lose weight is not only accepted, but it's the way that you should be approaching the problem. So we've done a lot of work that is creative and if you like, arresting. We're also doing a lot of work in being thought leaders in this space on promoting this new way of being healthy. So that is a capability that we're investing. Some new areas of for us are also starting to engage with policymakers to really start helping educate what we can do as a private health care provider in solving this crisis.
Of course, from day one, we've been building the Neumann platform, which now, what is it, six years in, you can really start to see coming to focus that original vision of
what it
would take to bring together all those different parts of the care journey into one approach. So with Newman, we lead first with a digitally led consultation. That means that people can provide us information asynchronously through a questionnaire. People can speak to clinician. People can have a video call with a clinician where that is appropriate as well.
We put together the tools that lets us manage complex cases at scale. It's one thing prescribing a very simple piece of medication that somebody can take by themselves and then let them get on with it, which is the online pharmacy model. It is very different to be able to treat hundreds of thousands of patients with multiple combinations of medication with a number of different side effects with a different degree of personalization. So that's something we've been investing in and also is something that you absolutely have to do as a business when you reach that scale when it comes to also managing risk, which is something that we do on a daily basis. So we personalize the journey using the data that we have for you.
We are investing in the platform in being able to scale and at some point in the future, automate some of that work. And also when it comes to combining the pharmacotherapy with behavioral change, we have one of the leading teams that can help you build healthy habits, help you set the right goals and then guide you with the right combination of triggers, coaching, behaviors, education and ongoing intervention to help you use the medication. At some point, the conversation is switching already to what happens after you use the medication. And our goal is for you to be a patient and a member of human, whether you happen to be paying us for a specific drug or not. We're moving to making that digital led approach the leading part of the proposition, not the supporting part of the proposition.
If I was to pick two of the big catalysts in our space globally over the last few years, the arrival of GLP-1s has been one of them. The other one has been the arrival and the applicability of generative AI within a health care setting. We I believe that in the next few years, the way we understand and we act and we experience health and health care will be unrecognized to the way we experienced it five years ago. And AI will play a key role in that, is already playing a key role in that, but not only in the back office where there are some obvious efficiencies and cost savings and augmentation of our human clinical team, but also the patient engagement layer. Now when you step into that space, though, it is imperative that you act responsibly.
It's imperative that you ensure safety. And we're still all learning collectively as an industry. Neumann has been at the forefront of investing in safety and scalability. A lot of the tools that we needed to do that did not exist, so we had to build them. And when we track the numbers around safety, efficacy, tone of voice and results, every single metric that we've been building from has been orders of magnitude better than when we started.
This is proprietary. This is building on the data that we have for the patient, the data that we have from our coaches, everything that we've been working on over the last twenty four months. Also, of the ways that we can create the experience for the patient that we deliver is driven from the fact that we are vertically integrated. This is our facility in Cardiff. That facility now has gone to I think we have what is it?
It's not 20,000 square feet. It's about 35,000 now because we've been expanding. It's a site that is both a registered MHRA wholesale distribution center. We are licensed to not only procure but distribute medication from there as well, but also site where we dispense our medication from on a of course, on a multiple times per day basis, a site that now operates on a seven day rotation as well. Now when you put all that together and when you step back, our conviction is that the businesses that are going to achieve the biggest success here because we know that the market is there, we know that the problem is there, are the ones that are going to be able to break through to the patient, the ones that can also prove that they can deliver better outcomes.
So now we're investing in research that actually proves that. It's for the first time, we have papers submitting in some of the leading journals that deal with obesity and prevention. You're going to see some of that becoming public over the next twelve months. It's something that takes time, but we're working towards being able to prove that Newman is the best place for you to come to be healthier and we can actually have the data to show to you why that is the case. This was a very quick update on what we do and who we are.
I'm going to go a little bit now into the numbers around the business since our last presentation. So we've spoken before about how we've been consistently growing on a triple digit revenue rate now. We are we were predicting that we're going to grow about 130% this year compared to last year, and we've been public about what last year's revenue was, which was $90,000,000 We're actually ahead of plan. We're now 175 percent year on year growth since last year. And crucially, we've been managing to do that while still growing profitably.
We've not sacrificed in that. We are when it comes to getting the balance between investing for the future and maximizing profitability, we still see huge opportunity to grow. So we're not maximizing for profitability, but we're also not going back from it. We raised the round this summer. It's a mix of cash and equity.
We raised a total of $60,000,000 We've done that with BIGPY and Endeavor Catalyst as new investors. We also have participation from some of our existing investors with WideStar and Novator coming into the route. And also, we brought on board HSBC Innovation Bank as our new banking partner, and we have fantastic revolving credit facility that we can use for growth or for other things that we want to pursue as well. And you can see why we did that even though we didn't have to. It's because we believe there's a huge opportunity in front of us and we want to be in the best possible position to pursue it.
So we're now a few months away from closing 2025. When we look at the next three years, we see a huge room to grow consistently from where we are today. We see the business more than doubling over the next three years in The UK alone. We see revenue growing. We see profitability expanding and we see Newman really becoming that platform that defines what virtual care means globally.
We want to be one of the people that writes the playbook there because it still hasn't been written. We want to make positive impact into millions of people in The UK and beyond, we want to do that while building an amazing team, company and business at the same time. That's what I have to share today. Thanks for listening.
Okay. I think you know
the format by now. I'll ask a couple
of questions and open up for Q and A.
Thank you, Sukrotis, for that presentation. Your growth in the past couple of years is nothing short of amazing. It's triple digit growth a couple of years in a row. Just a couple of months ago, you announced a new funding round, which you mentioned. Talk us through the considerations there, the pros and cons of raising a round when you're growing a lot and already profitable and what ended up being
the reason for the raise.
This was a difficult decision because up until this point, the decision wasn't really a question of if we had to. Once the world changed after 2021, 'twenty two, and we set the course to profitability and then we achieved that, it became a much more deliberate, if you like, decision and a much more difficult plan to put in place in getting that balance right. We had a good conversation on the Board about whether we should, if we should raise and when we should raise. The reason why we brought in additional equity and debt, and I believe we got the mix around that right as well, is because we still see a massive opportunity not just to grow the business, but also invest in the product, invest in the platform and invest in things that we believe the growth lies ahead of us rather than behind. We can use debt and we can use the RCF very carefully and wisely, building on data that we can extrapolate from.
But some of the things that we want to do around the platform, around AI, around the product, we need equity. We also want to be in a position where we can be opportunistic when it comes to M and A. We understand we know we see a bunch of opportunities both in terms of tuck in acquisitions that can solidify the business here. We see opportunities internationally as well. We're going to stay, though, still quite focused with what we're doing.
It's every year that goes by, the business seems to needs to transform, maybe not at the same rate, but maybe actually arguably at a faster rate, but in different vectors of growth.
Please raise your hand if I have
a question. One more from me.
So you mentioned M and A on the slide. You're mentioning it or alluding to it now. Could you provide some color as to what you're looking for in an attractive M and A target, I guess? Are you looking for product expansion and or diversification, if you will? Is it the geographical element? How do you think about that?
It's all of those things that you mentioned. First and foremost, we're looking for teams and people that we want to work with. It's I believe we're still at the stage where the M and A that we're going to do is going to be strategic, and it's going to be most likely incremental. I have to admit, it's not a muscle that the company has fully developed, so we're going to walk there before we run. So let's see when we have that conversation in the next
CMD and what we stand by then.
Very exciting. Looking forward to that.
I'll go with one more. So
obviously, weight loss is a huge vertical for Pneumon today, it's grown just tremendously over the past couple of years. Outside of weight loss, what excites you? What verticals do you kind of envision contributing to growth? Obviously, it's difficult to kind of grow in relation to weight loss since it's become so big. But what where is the next horizon of growth coming from, do
you think?
So first of all, I think we have there's weight loss and then there's treating obesity and then there's helping people to be healthier by achieving a better weight, a healthier weight for them. And the last couple of years have been very much about that number and about dropping that number. But now you see you see it in the data, you see it also in the stories that you hear from people, and you see it in the engagement and the metrics that we have on the product that amongst those two million people right now that are in active GLP-one prescription, what excites me the most is figuring out what proportion of those people are actually not just in market to lose weight, but in market to understand their health, where they're starting from. They're in market to become healthier, and their weight is just one number and one factor there. So delivering a product and a platform that can help them along that journey is the most important thing for us.
And then when you see what we talked about earlier, hormonal health for men and women, testosterone and menopause are huge unsolved problems still. And then bringing all that together in a platform that can help you genuinely do prevention, but in a way that is actionable and is driven by the use of the right combination of pharmacotherapy and behavioral change, that is a thing that we're starting to see becoming the supply, I. E, can we build build it in the demand being at the best possible time for us to build it.
Very exciting. We have one question up here in the front.
Thanks. Obviously, we've seen that competition among GLP-one producers has been increasing and availability of the product has also significantly improved over the last few months. How does this increasing competition affect you in terms of margins or relationship with suppliers, etcetera?
It's good. We went from a place where there was one supplier in the market to a place where you have two of the largest pharma companies in the world competing, and they're soon going to be joined by a number of other players there. At the moment, there's about 120 different anti obesity medications in the pipeline. It's been developed in multiple formats, orals, injectables, strengths, multiple results, different frequency of application. We went from these medications being once a day injections or twice a day pills to weekly injections.
At some point, not in the too distant future, we're going to have once a month used products. And in that world, we believe that what's going to be most important is understanding the patient and being able to provide a treatment that's personalized to them and having an ongoing relationship. So we're really excited about that. We also see, at some point, generics coming to the market over the next few years. We're going to have to wait and see the impact of that and what it will be.
It will expand the market. And what will that mean is that you're going to have a number of different medications at different price points for different needs and for different people according to what it is that they can afford and what it is that they need. And that exactly plays to the strength of the platform and what we're building.
Thanks.
Just a quick one for me. Have you considered or in the past or considering in the future working with NHS given they're so constrained for resources? Maybe that could be a way to acquire new customers and grow as a referral program and a new source of revenue as well.
Yes, absolutely. That's a great great idea. And again, I spend part of my time. I didn't spend any of my time, but now I do spend part of my time. We have people in the team that are doing work to actually make that argument.
There are sixty million people in The U.
K. That suffer, that live with obesity right now. The NHS simply cannot afford to treat that population. And it's not just because of the cost of the medication. There's not enough you're never supposed to just give this medication to somebody.
You need to supervise them, and then you need to also offer wraparound services. Then it just doesn't have the capacity. The UK doesn't have the clinicians, enough clinical professionals to be able to do that. So our position and what we're advocating for is for the private sector, a number of select approved providers, and Neumann would be one of them, to be able to take some of that burden because that's what the market is doing right now. But do it in a way that is a lot more interoperable.
We don't speak very well amongst different parts of the ecosystem right now. We believe that needs to change. It has to change. And I don't see any other way that we can solve these problems other than that. So yes, 100%.
Excellent.
I think with that,
thank you so much. Congrats for all that you have achieved so far, and thanks
for being with us here today.
Well, you. Wrapping up for me then, I don't know if you see it, but I really brim with pride because both Neumann and Voie has We've been part of them since day one, since 2018, both of them. And they're both platform businesses with about £150,000,000 in revenue and really starting to accelerate. So that's great.
And I think it speaks to why I like the kind of B and B structure so much. It's a permanent capital vehicle. So those companies were part from day zero essentially. I think Bucaderec and BlaBla both started in 02/2009. We got involved way later.
So, we saw opportunity there and those are also exciting. Of course, Breadfast. Breadfast, I don't know if we can make the CMD in Cairo next year. Bjorn is going next week, but I'd encourage you to come along with us and go to Cairo, not only for Breadfast, but it's an exciting company. But yes, I hope that gives you an insight, update from last year into these companies.
And I think you can sense that we're super excited. And yes, that's it folks.
Thank you.