Earnings Call: H2 2020

Mar 16, 2021

A hearty welcome to the Financial Analyst Media Conference for the Business Year 2020. My name is Rune Lentin. I'm the Head of Communications at BKW, and I wish you a hearty welcome to this livestream. Some of you might remember a year ago, this very conference had to be changed to a livestream. And at the time, hardly anybody would have thought that 1 year later, yet, we would still have to inform you in a livestream. All the more, We are very happy to present an outstanding result to you. Let me briefly introduce you to the program. First, our CEO, Susanne Thomas, is going to give you a brief introduction. And then our CFO, Ronald Drechsel, will present the figures of the business year 20 '20. And then Susan Toma, our CEO, will give us an outlook on the strategy of BKW, and then we'll take your questions. You can submit your questions in writing during the conference, if you wish. And you can also let us know who the question goes to. Year. So with that, I'd like to hand over to Susanne Thomas. Year. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much For your virtual presence, we're very happy about your interest. We are happy to present outstanding results. With regard to all the key indicators, we can report a clear plus: Revenue, plus 9 percent EBIT, plus 10 percent operating net profit, plus 22%. And what is very year. Our operating cash flow has a plus of 24%. So we are in top form. We are consistently applying our strategy, and we are growing in interesting markets. Outstanding results. And what were they in 2020? It is the continuous transformation of the Energy business. The energy markets are changing, and what we need are trading activities, more flexibility and innovative approaches when it comes to energy supply. What we saw clearly in 2020 was that our Services business is a very robust and resilient business. We have some markets that gave us a strong basis for growth even in the difficult year of the pandemic. And what we can see at BKW is that after many years of transformation, now Our company is more than ever focused on customer needs and is offering more and more efficient Solutions and that we can innovatively develop. And I'd like to hand over with that to my colleague, Ronald Drexel. Well, thank you very much. I'm very pleased to introduce our great results for 2020. Now if we look at it in an overview, we see that in operating revenue, we're beyond EUR 3 Billions, which is 3,000,000,000, EUR 129,000,000. All of this despite corona, the virus and despite the decommissioning of KKM, which meant quite a reduction. Now 10% plus in the EBIT, which is at EUR 4 year, EUR 75,000,000 as compared to EUR 4.33 of the previous year. You can see a black for our transmission grid, which is a figure we've obtained by litigation. Year. Now if we deduct this, we're at EUR 4.36, which is still better than the previous year, which I remind you was a record result in itself. So EUR 436,000,000 is another record result ever since we have been listed. Now the operating net profit is a new key figure, which has already been introduced in the first half year. I'm going to talk about this a bit more later on, but this basically shows the net profit before decommissioning funds. We have reported net profit, which is at 3.82%, 5% less than last year. And the operating cash flow, as mentioned by Susan before, is at EUR 622,000,000. Year. Now the EBIT is on a constant level. Year. 2018 to 2018, we were able to remain stable. You can see the red line there, which is with regards to The power prices, there has been a slight increase ever since 2019, which means that we are now Now we're back on a path of growth with regards to EBIT. Now very briefly, with regards to our new key performance indicator, the operating net Profit, let me briefly explain this. We have the comparison here between 2019 2020. We are expecting EUR349,000,000 for 2020, which includes or which is added to the performance state funds. We are not going to tell you more or give you more details about how this is invested, but this will be added to it. And so we invested several billions, and we have A return of approximately 33% of 3% rather, which is still going beyond what has been stipulated by the state. And that in a half year, that was highly influenced by the coronavirus. And then finally, That means that there is a reported net profit at EUR382,000,000 Why do we think that this is a good key performance indicator? Because there are fluctuations that don't really have anything to do with the total performance of BKW. Now we have these EUR 382,000,000 and then we had this great performance in the funds year of several 1,000,000,000, which is a performance of approximately 12.3%. Yet. And then because of the performance of this state fund, we arrived at This reported net profit. So this is where we see what we operatively manage to make per year. Now if we look at the grid and the services and the energy, we see that When it comes to the energy, we have a reduction of 11%, which has to do obviously with KKM year and which could not be compensated by the increased energy prices. That was a quarter of our production, so That would mean minus 25%. However, it's only 11%, which is due to the price effect. Year? Grid is comparable to last year. If we deduct the Swiss grid payment were quite exactly at the previous year's level. This is Also, due to acquisitions we've made in the past half year, Acquisitions had to be cut because of the corona situation, which demanded very sensible Behavior. When it comes to EBIT, there is a slight Down when it comes to energy, the grid is stable. This is where Swiss grid has to be deducted again. And in Services, a plus of 17%, which is a great step forward. However, it is slightly disproportionate because of the coronavirus situation because there was less Efficiency on building sites, especially in the first half year. Now we had less investments Than usual in 2020, you can see EUR 250,000,000 were invested. What remained the same were The investments in maintenance and replacement with EUR 187,000,000. Year. The large part of this goes into the grid. So maintenance of our grid Have to be invested there. And we still have EUR 63,000,000 in growth, partly in Services and partly in Energy. Energy is with wind energy mainly and hydro energy. There are Hydro Energy in Switzerland and wind in Norway especially. Now the cash generation. Two figures I would like to highlight. 1 is the funds from operations. So that's there are the changes in the net working capital. We're at EUR 782,000,000. So we so this is where we generated cash flow of EUR 7.80 2,000,000, which means that we have quite some operating freedom here. And we're at EUR 662,000,000 with regards to the operating cash flow, which is a record level. Now this is an overview over how we measure the cash flow. There is the operating cash flow, which is cash flow before we deduct the payments for the decommissioning and disposal funds for KKM. Now I've listed this for you to see here. That was in 2020, where we expect an operating cash flow of EUR 663,000,000, which is where we deduct what we pay for the decommissioning, what we pay. That's EUR 133,000,000. You will not see that in P and L. And then at the end, you would to an operating cash flow after those payments for the decommissioning. And then further down, there is the investment cash flow. So that's our investments. And this is where you can see how much we are getting back from the state funds, so refunds from state funds, which is EUR 87,000,000. So that's what we received from the state for the decommissioning and the disposal. The numbers, the figures are not quite the same right now. There is still a difference. So we make payments in the first step, and then the Fund pays us. There is one part That will not be covered by the state, however, but this is a brief explanation on how we deal with this. Now net working capital, we're very successful here. As you can see, we started in 2013 with EUR 443,000,000 which were bound in our net working capital. And we've driven this down by 2020 to €73,000,000 We have a Turnover of approximately €3,000,000,000 where a normal figure would be 5%. That would be €150,000,000 Anything beyond €100,000,000 is a top result for BKW. Now our liquidity. We Started with EUR 911,000,000 at the end of 2019, and we Strongly finished the year with more than EUR 1,000,000,000 in liquidity, EUR 1,036,000,000. We've got Cash flow of EUR 530,000,000 and then investments minus EUR 284,000,000. The dividends year. For our participations with €79,000,000 The dividends we've paid based on 2020 or the price the share price in 2020 with EUR 125,000,000. And then Approximately EUR 65,000,000 of this go to the state to burn in dividends. And then the financing offer is about EUR 34,000,000. Now we do have a solid financial situation with BKW. On the left hand side, you can see our net debt improvement. It has gone up to EUR 1,036,000,000. And then on the right hand side, you can see I'm sorry, you can see in the middle of financial debt, year, which is quite consistent. And then finally, we'll get to the net financial debt, which is the Key indicator to show how stable we are with BKW. So this is a beautiful development over the past year. On the right hand side, you can see the balanced maturity profile. Each line here is represents one of the bonds out there. We're set up a long time here Up until the year 2,034, it's a very balanced maturity profile. We don't have one particular year where we'll be liable to pay huge bulk sums, but it's very balanced over the years. Now the balance. Balance sheet is very stable as it always was in the past few years. Our equity ratio was increased to 42.3%. And on the right hand side, you can see the market Capitalization, which has gone beyond EUR 5,000,000,000 this year, again, as a first. Year. Now the different business areas. Energy, we do have lower revenues. However, the EBIT is quite resilient. The 11% are attributable to the KKM, which is no longer part of our portfolio. And there has been some setback because of The coronavirus, there was less use in the industry. However, it could be compensated to a large Parts in the second half year. The increased electricity prices did help. They were set. However, it wasn't able to completely absorb the loss from the KKM. In 2020, our performance was quite well with regards to be great, which I'm sorry, still with regards to the Energy, which means that the EBIT was only minus 4%. As you can tell, in 20 year. 2019, we produced 12.3 terawatt hours. And in 2020, it was only 9 Terawatt hours on average, and this is due to KKM, which is the red part that you can see here, the nuclear energy that was lost. So there was a little less thermal energy as part of this mix. This is due to the prices. So these power plants were working yet at a lower frequency in 2020 with regards to 2019. The new renewables, which is very pleasing to see, have increased. So that was a very good year, 2020, better than 2019. This is also due to the fact that the wind energy plants were finished in Norway. I don't want to say too much about the rate. It's a very reliable situation there. And I remind you of the Swiss grid situation or the Swiss grid payment rather that we can feel here. Now Services. They have shown beautiful growth of 32% in 2020, especially due to year. Especially in the last quarter, I'll remind you about Swiss Pro, LTP, P, Leitungspau in Germany and Ingenhofer, the architects in Germany. On the right hand side, the EBIT It has seen a plus of 17%. That was a bit disproportionate. This is this has to do with the COVID-nineteen effects, which led to us not achieving the same productivity on building sites because of all the measures that needed to be taken. So quite some Setbacks there. However, that only had an impact on the first half year of twenty twenty. And then in the second half year of twenty twenty, Services was very strong in Germany as well as in Switzerland. And we were able to compensate quite a large part of the loss we had in the first half year. So this shows how robust we are, how solid we are that we can compensate setbacks, especially on the architectural side. The margin has gone back a little bit from 7% in year. 2019 to 6% in 2020. This is due to COVID as well. In the margins, all the acquisitions and integration costs are included. If we only want to look at the operative Figures, operating figures, we would have to add approximately 0.1 percentage points. So we're at a margin of Approximately 7.5% to 8%, which is a very good result. Now all in all, the market has reacted It did to our great results or it has rather been reacting for quite some time now. Now you can see the figures from 2014 to 2020 here. 2014 was the year where we started with a new strategy, yet. And we moved away from SMCI as the index that we compare ourselves to. And the distance to SMI becomes greater and greater over the years, especially in 2020, as NCI didn't perform very well in 20 2020, and we were able to gain even more distance here. On the On the side, you can see the market capitalization, which mirrors what happens on the left hand side. We started with €1,600,000,000 and we end with €5,200,000,000 in 2020, which is tripling the amount. If we look at the total shareholder return, which is what you can earn with our share, is where we see that we have, since 2014, had a total shareholder return of 3.35%, which annualized is 23% on average every year. In 2020, we even had a record result of 42%. Now based on this information, we Post to increase the dividend from EUR 220,000,000 to EUR 240,000,000 You can see a nicely constant or nicely solid increase we had. Year. We're at double the dividend that we were we had in 2013, and we're well within the communicator range when it comes to the payout ratio. Now this is it for me, and I'll hand back to you, Susan. Thank you, Ronald. I would like to present our strategy and give you an update and an outlook for 2021. We are expecting an operating profit for 2021 in the range of between CHF 420,000,000 CHF440,000,000. This is based on the following main drivers. We see a further profitable growth of the Services business that developed very well in the second half of twenty twenty and continues to develop well in 2021. We have hedged Energy, electricity prices, that's a new situation and that gives us some upwind. We are always communicating a normalized trading result. In 2019 2020, we exceeded the normalized trading result, but we cannot assume that we can repeat this every year because there's a lot of volatility in the markets right now without really seeing a clear direction. And then what has a negative effect on the results of 2021 is that we need to have a large scale overhaul at the nuclear power plant, Leipstadt. So the power plant in Leipstadt will not be able to produce for about half a year. So this brings us to the estimate of EUR 420,000,000 to EUR 440 €1,000,000 operating profit. Of course, we will have to work hard to achieve this. This is not all set in stone and achieved, not at all. Year. In our strategy and our development, We are more and more focused on sustainability. This is a trend, and many companies are Saying that, and there's also a necessity behind that, obviously, But we can achieve more sustainability with our business models. There are many important initiatives that will help us come closer to the global sustainability goals of the UN Global Compact. We fully support the goals of the UN Global Compact. And the initiatives that you can see on the slide is are the ones that we can contribute to. Then We are focused on energy, infrastructure and buildings. In buildings, 50% of the energy that we produce is consumed. Then year. There is it's a fact that the climate is getting more and more Extreme. The weather conditions are more extreme. And in the field of energy, We have a focus on renewable energy in Europe. In the Western European countries, we want to exit nuclear power and also fossil fuel energy production. So this is something we do as a society but also as a company. We at BKW, of Of course, have to take into account the changed customer needs, the evolving customer needs. And in order to be profitable and do this job well, we have to offer overall solutions and produce electricity with a holistic view. Let's just mention electrical mobility that is gaining team, as it were, in Switzerland, gaining momentum and photovoltaics, too. So this is a very interesting market for us. And flexibility in energy production is essential. More and more, we will have photovoltaics in Switzerland, but These systems produce mainly in the summer and during the day, and we will have to offer solutions to have an efficient energy production and balance it out with energy Consumption also in difficult situations. This means that the value that we have in our assets has to be maximized systematically. And this means that we produce electricity when the distributor production cannot supply and then at higher prices. Trading is playing a more and more important role in this whole value chain. The management of our own assets is relevant here so that we can Sell energy at times when it is really needed. And there are more and more Fluctuations in the European Energy System, and that's why this is a driver. We are advancing our know how and investing capital. The positive thing is that this harmonizes with the needs of society because society needs a stable and decentralized energy supply. Of course, this also involves Infrastructure that has to be built. On the one hand, year. This includes aesthetic but also efficient buildings that have to be coupled with elements of artificial intelligence for unified power, grids and more. So we are building know how in this area, too. Then digitalization in the construction industry is an important element in this year. Development BIM, Building Information Modeling, is nothing new really. But what is new is that this competence is being used more and more in the construction industry in planning but also in execution. That's the driver that will bring about a big step in increasing efficiency. And BKW has a competence center for the company as a whole. And together with customers and BKW Engineering, we are applying these methods in practice and executing on them. We're very proud of this initiative. We have prominent competitors and also included some of them in the various teams and think tanks that we have. So what we are doing is We are positioning BKW in this new environment with the megatrends climate change, Digitalization, urbanization, more and more people living on smaller surfaces with enormous demands, a society that wants to live more sustainably but also wants to have a good life. And The drivers are in energy and in buildings and in infrastructure. And this is what we focus on: energy, power grids, engineering, etcetera. So we are Optimally positioned, these competence brands are more and more collaborating, and we are involving our customers. Whenever we're dealing with a highly complex project. And when our customers need a host of competencies, then we are A good partner. We have a broad spectrum of competences that can cater to the various needs of our customers at the various places in the world. So this brings me to the end of my talk. So we want to strike a balance between prosperity and environment in growing markets. So we want to position our company right there and grow in these markets. That's our vision for the future. Thank you very much. Year. Thank you very much, Susanne Thomas and Ronald Rexel for your year. Now it's your turn, ladies and gentlemen. This is the opportunity for you to ask questions. We have already received some questions. Year. We start with the first one right away. The first question is by radio Berna Oberland. There are 2 questions year. The first one, despite a difficult year, there has been a record profit. What are the reasons for that? And The second question is a preview for 2021, the goals, etcetera. We've heard a few words about that. Maybe you can still say 1 or 2 words About that. Now Beikele is in a good position in growing markets. Yet. Some of those markets did have their difficulties in 2020. However, we are very solid, which meant that we could balance the difficulties we had in some areas with other areas. We are particularly proud of having been able to balance out or compensate the loss we had because of Muleberg. Now we have an operative profit of EUR 4.20 billion to EUR 4.40 year, EUR 1,000,000,000 which we forecast for 2021. Now The next question is by Mr. Julian Vichy that we remember that in 20 20 2018, There was an expectation that there would be CHF 20,000,000 profit, yet? What it looks like now. Well, it still looks more or less the same. These areas are fairly solid and stable. It's definitely not due to the regulated areas that we make more profit. They're stable. There hasn't been much change in 2020. So the 20% and the 70%, they are still fine for this year or the coming year. I would like to add something. Monopoly is not the wrong word for this. It's not quite correct, however. It's a regulated monopoly, which means that the state stipulates how much we will be able to make on the investment we make. If we have the same capital in different markets, which aren't part of the monopoly, then the profit by yet. BKWW might be more volatile, true, but it would be higher as well. Another question by Julian G, we heard before that we are talking about a tendency of rising Energy prices, which means what does that mean for customers? Well, that means that our Customers well, it actually doesn't mean anything to our customers. The cost All of the production for the electricity plus the small margin on the invested capitals are introduced or part of The tariffs. So they can be part of the tariffs or they might have to be part of the tariff. The clients or customers might have an advantage there. Any surplus might go or might be part of the cost of BKW. So depending on what it's going to be. It might be good for BKW or for the customers. Mr. Christian Driesen, what Perspective do you see for the gas business of BKW? Yes. Well, I can say something about This, as it is right now in the competition in Switzerland, it means that gas will probably remain a need for BKW. Here. We did make some headway. We have won over quite interesting clients. However, it's still not a dynamic market in Which means that we expect a lower level but healthy development here. Next question from an analyst, Mr. Daniel Koenig from Mirabeau. Could you explain why normalization in trading is expected? Is the competitive environment changing? Yes. Well, the competitive environment does not change particularly, no. When it comes to volatility, we had quite a similar volatility as in 2019, which is quite a good environment to react on in trading. On the other hand, we have to say That in 2019 2020, we had quite a clear tendency, volatility but with a tendency in the prices year, which confirm which was confirmed quite strongly. These are figures that we don't know for 2021, we do have volatility, yes, but we do not have a clear trend with regards to the prices, not even on a short year. So these might change on a weekly basis, which makes it more difficult to Position ourselves on the market or in trading, it's also difficult to forecast how well positioned we are. We are positioned the same as we were in the past on quite a large scale in the market. We're not only Looking at energy prices, we're in commodities as well, all kinds of capacities. So we are always Trying to make sure that we have a good know how of what is happening on the market in general, and this is something that pays off. So yes, there is volatility, but we do not have a clear direction. And unfortunately, we're not going to get any clear direction because of the COVID situation right now. Year. But these are this is the outlook for 2021. Another question by Leandra Varga from Reio Beo, there are people who think that energy prices in Bernhard are too expensive compared to the rest of Switzerland. What do you say about that? Year. While you probably speak about the total tariffs, so that's energy and grid tariffs, year, which are fairly high, that's true, within the BKW grid, not Because BKW makes more money of that, there is the regulated margin or the regulated interest in this capital. Now at least for example, in the Bern Oberland, you will be able to tell that PKW has a grid where there are a lot of kilometers to be made. It's quite a challenging area, And this is set off by an area which might be easier. There are some areas where there are Many customers, a lot of electricity is used, for example, TUNE or Interlaken. So Berner Oberland is one of the more expensive grades for us. Now Mr. Driesen from Montel, can you tell us about the hedging quotes yet. Our hedging ratios for 2022 'twenty three. We are not going to be Able to give you any detailed information. However, you may assume that it will be 60% to 70%. Year. And the prices will be around 50. Next question, Daniel Konig Murobo. How much was the demand for energy in your area? And are there any catching up effects in the grid in 2021. I assume the first question is with regards to corona and the second one maybe with regards to investments. I'm not quite sure. Well, the demand for electricity, The consumption was more or less the same for free clients or that was in total in Switzerland. There was a reduction of about 10% in total last year. Year. Is there a question with regard to the catching up effect in the grid? I'm not quite sure whether it's with regards to investments. So maybe you should Ask your question more precisely, please. I would suggest Mr. Konig to make your question here. Good. Easier to read. Now we'll continue with Anton Sanna. Could you give As an indication with regards to the forward hedged electricity prices for 2020 1 and 2022 as well as 2023 with regards or compared to the level of 2020. Well, they hardly move. So there is no shift, not maybe from EUR 50,000,000 to EUR 52,000,000, but no great changes. Year. The big changes that we have seen in 2019 2020, they have been excluded again. What part of the production has already been hedged by BKW? And is there a change in the strategy with regard to this? We are going to be close to 100% for 2021, so no change in strategies. And finally, the services Or in the servicing business, there are investments envisaged with regards to engineering, etcetera. Where is the EBIT margin? Now we invest in engineering, in Building Technology, Infrastructure and Servicing Companies. And the goal with regards to these three areas is Our rather realistic goal is maybe 8% to 9%, but that will be a very, very good EBIT margin. Then there is a follow-up question that is almost answered. The EBIT margin development in the services business, I think we answered that. Then Jorg Meyer and ZZ Amzontag, what is the influence of the increasing CO2 prices in the long run? Year. The electricity price is determined by many different parameters. The gas price is an important input factor that influences The electricity price and CO2 also and the increasing CO2 prices are drivers. So that will have an effect on the electricity prices. They will grow, but there are many different effects. And the next question by Daniel Konig. How profitable was Leipstadt in 2020. Leipstadt was profitable in 2020, not quite yet as profitable as we expected because Leipster has a decommissioning and waste disposal fund that did not perform all that well. And Postal Fund that did not perform all that well, and this then has repercussions on The annual statement, the performance is around €40,000,000 roughly speaking. The next Question by Angela Tronica, Sankalla Cantonal Bank. What about investments, future investments? Can you give any figures, investments in Growth Markets mainly. I cannot give you any specific details. It really depends on the opportunities. We have attained strong positions in the markets that we are active in. So we are able to make acquisitions when they are Sensible when they strengthen our network and when they are in the right markets. Next question, Michel Grisov? What about the organic growth rate of PKW in The long term, any indications? We are expecting to exceed The market growth, and I'm speaking of the Services business mainly. And organic would mean 2% to 3% would be organic growth. Next question, Christian Affolter, year. La Jefine to Susantoma with a view to the political discussion on the splitting off of the Services business, can you give us some more details? And can you give us Some examples for synergies. Yes, I can do that. There are various examples. Let's take building technology. If somebody wants to produce electricity and wants To market this energy in an optimum way, we can offer year. Building a building solution or building solutions that connect The photovoltaic system and the electricity management system, and we can sell optimized Energy Products in this way, this is something that is happening more and more, not only for small projects but also for larger projects because year. The customer has better resources. Sometimes, it is very difficult to offer an overall solution. And it's one of the services that we can offer as a large group. So our CapEx in the grid minus year. Appreciation, EUR 8,700,000. Why is there such a significant difference vis a vis 20 'twenty, that's the next question. Ronald, so what were these projects? We do not want to build new kilometers of grid. It's more investments into the management of the grid smart meters, etcetera. And the investments are around EUR 25,000,000. There will be more depreciations. That trend will continue in the next few years, the distance will become smaller and smaller. Yet. So the figures will come closer. So we will invest around EUR 125,000,000. Mario Graff from the Energate, GmbH, on acquisitions. You wrote vis a vis the Bernese government that BKW had moderate growth plans in services. We do not have any sound right now. We Apologize. No sound for the interpreters. Sorry. We apologize. We do not have any sound right now. There seem to be some technical problems. No sound. The sound engineers seem to be working on it. We apologize. We do not have any sound right now. Thank you, Therese Hanni, she makes reference to the Bernese Cantonal Parliament that is dealing with a question on the bodies involved In a Cantonal Company, there seems to be some unease on Salaries and bonuses and remunerations. Is BKW taking this seriously? Unfortunately, the microphone of the CEO does not seem to be working. So would the sound engineers please So we want to be top in our industry. And we are certainly not among The people receiving the highest salaries, unfortunately, the sound quality is too bad. The microphone does not seem to be working. If we compare with Other companies who have similar market capitalizations, we are on average. So we have lived up to this requirement. Year. Thank you. Next question, Ronald Rexel to Ronald Rexel, Daniel Konig. What about Trading profit. Thank you. We do not to give any information on this. And let me explain this. If you do trading, The trading success is not looked at a period of 1 year. The period to look at is at least 4 years. And to break this down to 1 year does not really make sense. So we would not have a very good key ratio. So the Trading profit is not what we look at on an annual basis. Michelsneider? Should we expect to see more investment M and A in services or renewables? And what is the ideal debt level? Thank you. Yes. Indeed, you will most likely see more investments in Renewable and also in the service area. And with our strong balance sheet, we can carry out this investment without coming into an undue debt situation. Year. A follow-up question by Beart Heineken. He is Also asking about acquisitions and the focus there, what industries Domestically or in other countries, Susanne, we are focused in the countries around Switzerland, Germany and Austria For the Services business for Energy, we are focusing on Europe as a whole. And in All areas of the Services business, we see growth opportunities, and we will grow where we see the best opportunities. Acquisitions cannot be planned in the same way as other elements of Corporate Development. A question by Angela Toninger, Sankalapan Alpa. Can you be more specific on the Energy a bit? What about management and trading in this respect. On trading, there, we cannot be more specific. Sorry to disappoint me. You energy there, yet. You can assume that with regard to the production that we are selling in the market, that's 80% of our production. Yet. We are slowly but surely coming closer to a black 0. Yet. And with regard to distribution, as we said, we have the EUR 20,000,000 that we get from domestic supply, and we are hoping to arrive at the black zero there, too. So we are not able to make The profit there due to the market prices that we have. Next question by Armin Reichberger from Zadkavi. What were the developments of the prices of the electricity already sold in 2021, 2022 and 2023? Well, that was a flat development, as already said. Year. One after the other, I'd say. The first question was that in the communication to the media, BKW was looking at its setup for the distribution network. What does that mean? Well, we work in different areas, not only in the canton of Bern, but also in Solutone, for example. And there are always questions with regards to the Optimum management, optimum setup in order to handle the costs. So we're always looking to harmonization in this area. Well, I think that BKW especially thinks about opening the market, new Electricity Act, etcetera. So we need to rethink our setup. And we are definitely thinking towards a unified grid. 2nd question is I've got a very quick answer to that. There hasn't been Any change with regards to the communication of the Administrative Board? This is still the communication thus far. And with regards to Staying ability, whether there are any goals with regards to CO2 Production or emission. Well, yes, one core point of our positioning is that the solutions we have in Infrastructures and Building want to make a commitment and a contribution to the reduction of CO2 emissions, It's not leaseable with our clients. This is our position. Obviously, we Do ourselves also work on positioning the company that way? And in 1 year's time, we will give you a more Detailed report with regard to the reporting in this area, and you will be able to see our development there. Mr. Hobbschold from Derbond. Are there any changes with regards to the decommissioning Of Muleberg, is there are there any specific plans for the area for the grounds, Whether there might be a power plant with gas, etcetera. We're quite pleased with the development there. We're in time and in cost, despite some difficulties that we had to face in 2020 because of the current circumstances. However, things are working well there. There are no news with regards to that, and I do not have any news either with regards to the further use of The area, it also depends on the framework conditions at the time when we need to make this decision. So it's not quite time yet to think about this. Mr. Konig Has made his question more precise now. With regard to the catching up effect with With regard to the EBIT in 2021, the grid is regulated with WACC, is Has the regulated assets basis in 2020 increased? There was no change With regards to WACC, in 2017, it was it has gone down to 2.8%. However, because of our grid, We still have some differences there that we are getting rid of. And as said last year, We will continue this way until 2022. So until there, there shouldn't be any catching up effect yet. No other catching up effect. Mr. Schneller, how large was the EBIT Contribution of the new renewable energies in Norway, for example, in 2020. And how large will the contribution be in 2021 to 'twenty three? The EBIT contribution of wind is between EUR 40,000,000 50,000,000. The further development is according to the way we are set up. It's going to say where it is right now. There are no further plants in construction. We are willing and we do have the power to acquire or build new wind power plant. However, Returns have to be correct. And the returns, as you can see, in Europe, there might be a boom, yes, but there aren't quite the returns that we would expect? So yes, we are presumably going to continue to invest. However, we're going to do that in a hedged way or in a very focused way. 2nd question by Mr. Schneller. And the 33% contribution to Wilhelmshaven in Germany, what's the long term development there? Yes. The nuclear power plants sorry, not a nuclear Power plant, the power plant in Willenshaven, coal power plant. When it comes to Beckettif, it's also impacted by the decommissioning with regards to coal energy In Germany, this is going to happen at some point. However, we don't know quite yet at what point, and we don't know, therefore, The impact on Wilhelmshaven. Currently, we are still operating in Wilhelmshaven, and it is profitable. And we're obviously having a very close look at developments in on the markets. I cannot really add much to that. 33%, we're still there. Currently, it's profitable. We are closely looking at what is happening there. We yet. The development in Germany still is that there is a decommissioning until 2,038. That is all we know thus far. I am going to push one question forward. I think we it's What's the development in the gas production? We don't really See a long term future for BKW there, but we do see that gas is a technology that could be a transitional technology. With regards to the use of renewable energy and actually facilitate the use of renewable energies. Because nuclear power plants will be decommissioned, and then we will have to rely on a mix of different types of energy. And then at the end of the day, this can be a contribution to a more renewable supply system in the future. So I'd Say that our position is neutral. If there are good businesses there, that might be worth it because it's also part of our strategy to rebuild yet or renew the supply system. Now the final question by Mr. Griesdorf, a follow-up question With regards to the organic growth, you underlined the Services business, which means that probably the remainder of the businesses is stable. Well, I wouldn't say that. The Energy Business has different components. It is moderately rising. With regards To energy, there are fluctuations there. With regards to energy, we are Looking at investing in wind energy again, but we are going to think about this once it becomes pertinent. So yes, you are right in a way. There is the Energy business, but the Services business is growing faster. There is another question that has just arrived now. So the CHF 50 from the reply to the hedging question, were was that Swiss francs or euros? That was CHF year. Now I can't see any further questions for the moment. So I would suggest year. Well, it looks as though you had the opportunity to ask all the questions you had. There are no further questions. Thank you very much for your interest in this event, our Analysts and Media Conference. And we're looking forward to meeting you again in September. Have a great day, everyone, and a great end of the week.