Earnings Call: Q3 2020

Nov 3, 2020

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Ehrlichon Q3 2020 Results Conference Call and Live Webcast. I am Alessandro, the Chorus Call operator. I would like to remind you that all participants will be in listen only mode and the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by a Q and A session. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Mr. Kerstin Flotner, Head of Corporate Communications and Investor Relations at Oerlikon. Please go ahead, madam. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Eurlikon's conference call on the 20 2Q3 results. In the light of the current developments, I do hope you're all well and staying safe. My name is Kristian Flotner, Head of Corporate Communications and Investor Relations. On a personal note, I'm delighted to be here and to guide you through my first set of results. With me today are Doctor. Roland Fischer, Group CEO and Filip Muller, Group CFO. As a reminder, all related documents on the Q3 results, including the following presentation, are available for download on our website at www.erlicon.com. Today, Roland Fisher will outline Oerlikon's strong progress in responding to the challenging market conditions. We will provide an update on the strong performance of the group and the progress we are making on our cost actions. Filip Muller will then give you an overview of the financial performance during the Q3 and 1st 9 months of 2020. After their presentations, we will host a Q and A session to answer your questions. Today's conference is being recorded and a replay will be available on our website later today. And now, handing over to Roland. Thank you, Kerstin, and welcome from my side as well. We acknowledge that we are reporting in times of a research COVID-nineteen pandemic, particular in Europe. So I'm even more pleased to be able to deliver positive results for the Q3. This demonstrates the strength and resilience of Ehrlichone's business. Our manmade fiber division continues to see a positive market outlook in the core Filament business. This is built upon long term structural drivers such as customer consolidation and integrated downstream polymer capacity. The Q3 demonstrated Manmade Fibers' strong operational performance. Sales of CHF 313,000,000 in the Q3 brings sales for the 1st 9 months to CHF765,000,000. The COVID-nineteen pandemic has accelerated the development of Manmade Fibers nonwoven business. During the 1st 9 months, we have received orders of over CHF 75,000,000 and sales of over CHF 50,000,000 for nonwoven applications. We are pleased to be able to support the global fight against the virus. Important, the nonwoven success is not limited to providing melt launch systems for facial masks. We are seeing increased inquiries for nonwoven consumables, including the phantom lines for Procter and Gamble wet wipes. This can be used to clean and disinfect services. And now, let's move on to the more complex market situation for Service Solutions. The Service Solutions division has experienced sequential recovery from the low point in the second quarter. The recovery is divergent across end markets and geographies. Automotive has recovered strongly in China with encouraging developments in Europe. Tooling has experienced a recovery and to a lesser degree, general industry too. Meanwhile, our aerospace business has worsened as a result of continued restrictions on travel. With the current resurgence of the COVID-nineteen pandemic, planes are grounded and flying hours are limited. On balance, the end market recovery has enabled sales to grow sequentially. Scale, diversity and global footprint allows service solutions to weather the varying speed of recovery. We are well positioned to expand our market share against smaller and more exposed local competitors. Let me now elaborate a bit on our cost out programs. As automotive markets softened already last year, we made an assessment of our business and proactively initiated actions on our cost base already in 2019. When the COVID-nineteen pandemic took hold, we adopted and accelerated our programs. The most important message I have here is that these cost out measures are to the biggest extent structural in nature and will lead to sustainably lower cost basis for our business. The actions are not dependent on sales volumes and the expected run rate savings of approximately CHF 70,000,000 per annum will continue even when sales increases again. Our strong focus on our cost program is evident with over 650 of the 800 plus planned headcount reduction completed at the end of September. In addition to the structural measures, we have put in place tight cost controls on discretionary spend. Operating expenses have been reduced by CHF165 1,000,000 compared to the 1st 9 months of 2019, reflecting operational gearing of 66%. Looking forward, our manmade fibers division is on track to deliver sales of over CHF 1,000,000,000 and to improve margins over 2019. We have strengthened the Service Solution division with the addition of Marcus Tackett as Division CEO. He brings a strong track record of business transformation with experience in clean energy and gas turbines. He is well positioned in further development and integrates the service solutions business with an increasing customer focus. The Service Solutions division has seen a sequential recovery. However, the varying picture across the end markets and the 2nd wave of COVID-nineteen means, we will not provide an update guidance even on the relatively near term future as many countries prepare for new lockdowns. Let me provide you with some more details on our cost out programs. As I have already previously explained, the program is focused on streamlining our headquarter functions and support functions, including shared service centers, rationalizing our legal entity structure, following a number of acquisitions, optimizing our footprint to benefit from scale and better service our customers, gaining additional procurement synergies, and last but not least, rightsizing our additive manufacturing business, adapting to market trends and reinforcing where we can add value. The structural program is not limited to headcount and is also designed to yield long term benefits through efficient working practices and technology adoptions. Headcount reduction and the simplification of our organization is a critical element, however. On these reductions, we are ahead of schedule. As of September 30, we are more than 80% complete and now anticipate being 90% complete by the end of 2020. We have increased our estimate of annualized run rate EBITDA savings to around CHF70 1,000,000. Implementation costs remain approximately at CHF 60,000,000 Let me reiterate that these cost out measures are structural in nature and will yield a sustainably lower cost basis for our business. The actions are not dependent on sales volumes and the expected run rate savings will continue even when sales increase again. To give you some more further details on our structural programs. Headquarters and support functions program will reduce headcount by around 80 and to generate run rate EBITDA of CHF10 1,000,000. It includes initiatives like our shared service center concept and we are regionally reducing legal entities and gaining scale from centralizing administration functions such as accounting, tax and IT across 3 locations, China, Poland and the U. S. This is a great example of how sustainable our structural gains are when volume returns. As we have previously told you, we have looked very closely at our additive manufacturing business and what size and functionality we want to afford, given the market outlook. While we continue to believe in the promise of the underlying technology, some end markets are more promising than others. Accordingly, we have decided to stop all of our activities related to the medical business in the U. S. While the medical market is growing in additive manufacturing, it has its own specifics. We learned that in medical markets, our customers are unwilling to outsource additive manufacturing in the same way we see in other markets such as aerospace, automotive and general industries. The closure of this business alone reduced our structural cost in additive manufacturing by CHF 10,000,000,000. This helps us reach breakeven faster and at a lower sales level. Our focus on aerospace, automotive and travel industries is already generating tangible results with OEM partnerships and first signs of larger serial orders taking us beyond prototyping. Elsewhere in Service Solutions, we plan to generate run rate savings of CHF 45,000,000, which include, but are not limited to headcount reduction of 600 FT feet feet feet feet feet feet feet feet feet feet feet feet Es. It includes improvements in plant utilization through further of automation and digitalization. We will optimize our global production network and more closely align it with our customer footprint across core markets. The make or buy decisions will be more closely aligned between manufacturing and purchasing. We have continued to progress on the structural cost program. The contribution to the bottom line is a big enabler for returning to our medium term operational EBITDA margin of 16% to 18%. This is alongside a strong Manmade Fiber Business and recovery in volume in service solutions business. In the Q3, we have been pleased to see some of our markets start to recover at varying paces. The recovery is still in the early stages and whether these trends continue remain to be seen. There are further risks from the pandemic and from lower consumer demand. The strength of Manmade Fibers market positions continues to provide a stable base. Our order book in the Filament business remains sticky with continued visibility out to 2023. The nonwoven business continues to enjoy a positive market development this year. It has been a real breakthrough year for our nonwoven business. The special Filament business, including industrial and carpet yarns remains abreast. In Service Solutions, the 3rd quarter saw a variety of recovery patterns across markets and geographies. Looking at geographies, we noticed that the picture of recovery was particularly strong in China and contributed to the better results of our Asia business, where Service Solutions has a third of its sales. Also in Europe, the market situation improved sequentially. However, North America continues to show weak market conditions. The recovery in automotive has been a bright spot for us across all geographies. Following the summer seasonal shutdown, we have seen carmakers increase both sales and production levels sequentially. This is only 5% to 10% behind 2019 levels. The pattern we are seeing in September early October give us cause for cautious optimism. In tooling, we saw a sequential improvement in our sales in the 3rd quarter, particularly after seasonal summer closures in August. General Industries has experienced a more modest pattern of recovery and it also includes our energy business. And we have also seen a decline in the conditions in the aerospace market. Restrictions on passenger numbers heavily impacted on commercial airlines, which has had a knock on impact for our business. Aircraft production rates and indirectly new engines combined with MRO due to lower flying hours had a negative impact on our sales. Market conditions indicate a deeper crisis and a longer recovery pattern than anticipated last quarter. Ehrlichone has performed well during the Q3. The actions we are taking are beginning to deliver results. Service Solutions is a leader in sustainable innovation with a strong technology portfolio. Our proactive cost measures will enable us to grow more profitably and with greater capital efficiency. We have taken additional steps to utilize our technology more efficiently and to increase our focus on the customers. Mammoth fiber continues to demonstrate strength and during turbulent markets has been a stabilizing force. The progress made in the development of the nonwoven business adds additional resilience to the division and positions it well for growth markets. The diversity and scale of our businesses allows us to be a strong partner for our customers and suppliers. Our healthy balance sheet positions us well for the future and we will be ready to execute where the right growth and M and A opportunities present Samsher. Following the commercial and market overview, let me now hand over to Filip to present the group's financials. Thank you, Roland, and good afternoon. Welcome to today's presentation from my side as well. I will start with the group financial review for the Q3 and then take a closer look at the divisional results. In the Q3, group order intake was CHF518,000,000 down 17% year over year on a reported basis and down 14% in constant FX rates. Manmade Fibers delivered robust order intake that underpins our annual sales targets and solidifies our 2021 outlook. Sales in the quarter were CHF593 million, down 6% year over year. FX contributed negative 4% to the decline. Manmade Fibers sales increased 18% year on year as we caught up on the operational delays caused by the COVID-nineteen pandemic in the 3rd quarter. Surface Solutions 3rd quarter sales were down 24% year on year. Notably, sequential sales were up 7%, showing the first effect of the market recovery. Operational EBITDA was $92,000,000 in the 3rd quarter or 15.6%. Margins were around 2 10 basis points higher year on year despite a lower overall level of sales. It demonstrates the strong operational performance in Manmade Fibers and the first tangible impact of our cost programs. Let me put this margin performance into perspective. Manmade Fibers margins were at 15.4% in Q3, a bit higher than what we call sustainable margin levels. At the beginning of the year, we guided to around 13% and we are now expecting between 13% 14% for the year 2020. Midterm, we expect margins in manmade around these levels. In Surface Solutions, margins were at 14.8% in Q3, despite continued low sales levels. In July August, we still experienced very low activity and only September showed some real signs of recovery. For Surface Solutions, we are expecting continued margin improvements from the current levels as our cost actions yield further benefits. Our strong cost actions and increased operational rigor are also delivering improved cash generation. For the second half of twenty twenty, we expect CapEx to be around the same level as the first half of the year and networking capital to be a source of cash. Medium term, we are also expecting to sustainably lower our CapEx requirements, which will position us to generate strong free cash flow. Overall, the Q3 marks solid progress towards our medium term group margin targets of 16% to 18%. We are confident we can achieve this. Moving to the divisional results. In Surface Solutions, 3rd quarter sales were CHF 280,000,000. Sales declined 24% year over year on a reported basis and 20% at constant FX rates. Sequentially, sales grew 7% as markets began their recovery from Q2. Our automotive business showed a solid performance in the 3rd quarter across all geographies. The performance was particularly strong in September and continued into October. The business was still down 17% versus prior year during the Q3, but it marks an improvement from the second quarter where we were down 36% versus the prior year. September October are showing further improvements as OEM car production has ramped up. Tooling and general industries also recovered during the Q3, however, to a lesser degree than auto. Our Aerospace business declined 50% year on year from 30% year on year in the second quarter. As our aero engine customers continue to suffer under extremely challenging market conditions. Operational EBITDA in Surface Solutions for the 3rd quarter was CHF42 1,000,000 or 14.8%. The impact of our cost out program is now clearly visible in the division profitability. Overall, in the 1st 9 months of the year, we reduced operating expenses in Surface Solutions by CHF165 1,000,000 compared to the 1st 9 months of 2019. This represents an operational gearing of 66%. Next on manmade fibers. Manmade fibers continue to deliver solid order intake with 261,000,000 orders during the Q3. For the 1st 9 months, this reflects order intake of CHF 770 1,000,000 and positions us well for 20 20 top line expectations of over CHF 1,000,000,000 and for 2021. 3rd quarter sales of CHF 313 1,000,000 were up 18% year on year. The Man Made Fibers team executed extremely well in challenging conditions and was able to catch up on the operational delays caused by the shutdowns in the first half of the year. For the 1st 9 months, manmade sales were CHF765 1,000,000. During the 1st 9 months of the year, we saw particular strength in our non woven business. We have recognized over CHF 75,000,000 of order intake and over CHF 50,000,000 of sales in the 1st 9 months. This is not limited to Meltblown system for facial masks. The business has additional strong opportunities in the fast growing sanitary product market. 3rd quarter operational EBITDA was CHF48 1,000,000 or 15.4%. This was driven by strong execution and solid cost absorption on the high sales levels. For the full year, we're expecting margins between 13% 14%. Manmade Fibers continues to provide a significant degree of stability to the group. We expect a stable development to continue for the foreseeable future as our order pipeline sees delivery lead times extending well into 20222023. Going forward, we anticipate nonwoven being an area of growth and helping to balance the sales mix. Let me summarize the results and our presentation before we start the Q and A session. Man Made Fibers has done an excellent job overcoming the operational challenges caused by the COVID-nineteen pandemic. We are on track for the full year. Sales of over CHF 750,000,000 and improved margins give us confidence the division can deliver orders and sales above CHF 1,000,000,000 for the full year. The Surface Solutions division is seeing a sequential recovery, the speed of which varies between geographies and end markets. We are cautiously optimistic of a continued recovery. However, risks related to the COVID-nineteen pandemic remain. Our cost actions are ahead of schedule, delivering benefits to the bottom line. The measures are sustainable. We have strengthened the businesses and added excellent capability to our management team. Visibility on the trajectory of the market recovery remains low for all of us. We continue to focus on what we can control and adjusting our structural cost footprint. Should the recovery be less pronounced, we are prepared to make additional cost adjustments. Furthermore, as our structural cost actions are taking effect, we are increasingly confident about our commitment to midterm margin corridors of 16% to 18% for the group. This closes our prepared remarks. With that, we will open it up for questions. Operator, please go ahead. We will now begin the question and answer The first question comes from Michael Foth from Pontoobel. Please go ahead. Hi, everyone. I have first two questions on the cost savings and the margin. First of all, by when is the restructuring program complete? Meaning, do you expect the full €70,000,000 savings to be effective in 2021? And on the other hand, you said you have 165,000,000 costs that were cut. So the difference between the 2, is that what will come back if volumes start rising again or do I get something wrong there? That's on the restructuring. Then I have a question on the margin drag going forward of Additive Manufacturing. How much will that be this year, next year versus the 200 to 300 basis points on the Circuit Solutions business that you mentioned previously? And then a question on the management change or addition. What triggered the decision to put in place a new CEO for Surface Solutions? And Roland, you, yourself, what will you focus on or in which priorities will you focus on if you're no longer heading the Percept Solutions business directly? Thank you. Okay. Let me start. And so Michael, a bunch of questions. The cost programs we are talking about has been launched already in 2019 and prior to corona and has been accelerated earlier this year. And if we take the headcount reduction in Service Solution as one parameter and one contributing element, We have about the 6.50 people already off the payroll by end of September, and it will be 700 plus by end of the year. That means the big majority of this effect will be cost effective already next year. But giving a final date when our programs will be completed, for sure, we will continue the entire year of 2021 heavily depending on how the environment and the economy will develop, right? And honestly spoken, there is no clear end date what we have in mind. And you're absolutely right. The difference between the €70,000,000 run rate and the reduction in operational spending of €165,000,000 is to a big extent, What is contributing What is contributing here, giving us benefit, at least for the time being, we are using it. Another example is travel expenses. We are all sitting more or less in our offices or at home and travel hardly is possible from that perspective. There are cost element, which are coming back, and that's contributing to the difference. The additive part, yes, we made a big step by terminating the medical business in the U. S. And I think Philippe mentioned the €10,000,000 if I'm not completely wrong, what is a positive effect here and that moves our effect much closer to the 200 basis points coming from the 300 basis points we had in the past. And maybe last but not least, the point, Michael, you are asking why we are introducing a new CEO for the Service Solution division. I think the answer is a very simple one. When we decided in 2016 to combine the roles group CEO and division CEO, the environment was a completely different one. It was straightforward. Economical trend was clear upwards, and we just executed our strategy. And in our days now, the environment economical environment is a completely different one, asking for measures or actions in terms of structural improvements, structural things, but also operational topics. And this is something what is extremely important for Alicorn as a group of company and this is nothing what can be done on a part time mode. And that is the simple reason why we made this decision. So let me maybe, Michael, a couple more just numbers on how to think about the cost out program. If we're saying we're 90% complete with the restructuring program that we had foreseen, I think that's maybe a good gauge for how much of the $70,000,000 of run rate savings we're expecting to come through in 2021. Initially, we hadn't anticipated to get that pretty much that full benefit in 2021, but because we're ahead of schedule, we're expecting that to come through in 2021 now. Roland is absolutely right. There are some other elements. And I think the important thing that I would point to is certainly the margin step up in the Q3 and the step up in the operational gearing. We're expecting another step up there in terms of the operational gearing in the Q4. As you really not only have the temporary cost savings, but on top of that, you have the structural cost savings coming through. First time we saw a substantial part of the substantial of the structural cost savings coming through was in the Q3. And so we're obviously expecting those to stay and then we get some positive incremental operational leverage as volume, I would say, just levelizes out and improves sequentially in Surface Solutions. And then on the additive manufacturing, Roland is absolutely right. I think just the medical part maybe removes about 50 basis points to 75 basis points of the dilution that we talked about. And all in all, with the other structural cost savings, we're expecting to reduce that dilution that we had talked about by 100 basis points to 125 basis points from the 300 basis points. So still a ways to go, but like Roland said, the breakeven, we're expecting that to be significantly lower than previously. And we'll continue to work on that and to looking positively I think overall at Additive. Thank you very much. The next question comes from Alessandro Foletti from Octavian. Please go ahead. Yes. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for taking my questions. Just a couple is possible. Maybe coming back to the cost. Can you give an indication on the gross margin development in Q3, if there was anything that contributed to this $165,000,000 cost reduction? The gross margin level really not substantial. There's obviously when we think about our structural footprint, some of the elements there are accounted in gross margin. And so that's where you really saw the step up in the Q3. Those are really fulfillment elements that we consider structural and fixed. And as we remove them, they improve the gross margin, but no sort of idiosyncratic things that impacted gross margins either up or down in the 3rd quarter? So let's say input output price differential was in the worst case stable, let's say not a headwind for you? Yes, that's right. All right. Thank you. Then I would like to ask another question on manmade. Maybe first of all on the margin again also here, you mentioned you expect let me see your words, Philippe, were exactly the following. Where did I write it? Between 13% 14% for the full year 2020. And then to remain on this level, something like that, you said. Can you explain what you mean with this exactly? I think that's really what we wanted to point towards. I think for the total year, we're expecting margins around those levels. We've always said mid term, we see that business in the mid teens. That's our expectation, 13% to 14% is maybe midterm our expectation here for the business. The backlog and price in backlog is getting better. The team is bar any bar any huge surprises as pretty sustainable in manmade fibers. So the 15%? Excuse me. 15.4% is not the run rate. I think Philippe made the comment, right? No, I understand that, but maybe you can explain why it is somehow above the sustainable? No, I think there's really, as you execute, we always say this about man made, depending on what parts of the projects we execute through and what part of the backlog we're really running through in our percentage of completion accounting, sometimes the margins are a little bit higher or a little bit lower. 2nd quarter also saw some strength there. 1st quarter was a little softer, but also driven by lower revenues. So I think as we look into the next couple of quarters, this feels like the right margin level. But as always, margins can vary a little bit in any given quarter. All right, great. Thanks. Another 2 short one short one and then maybe a longer one for me to go. On the Additives business, now you mentioned the exit from medical in the U. S. Maybe can you share other thoughts that you have about rightsizing that business? You mentioned obviously breakeven is much lower now, but as I understand, it's not yet there. So there is more to go. I imagine you want to reach breakeven at least at some point down the road. Yes. Alessandro, I think the answer is a very simple one. In Medical, we made this tough decision because we didn't see the chance really to fulfill the intention and the plans we had to convert traditional production technologies more into additive due to the sheer fact that there is just a limited willingness out to outsource this technology. And having this recognized and realized, we thought it's the right point of time to say, no, it's enough. In other areas, the situation is much better. We do see a strong move from originally prototype business more towards more substantial contracts with in the aerospace and space area, especially we talk about volumes, contracts, €500,000, €1,000,000 plus. And this is a structural move, which is coming with industrialization of this technology. And that brings us top line, and that brings us closer to the breakeven. It's not so much about doing additional heavy cut here. Okay, I understand. Then maybe one my last one, when I look at the man made sales split, I see 24% comes from what you call plant engineering. I know the IR team told me the nonwoven business is allocated there. But maybe can you tell me how big the non woven inside there is and how big is the poly condensation and other stuff? And you mentioned also these sanitary products, etcetera. Can you give a little bit more color? Where do the orders come from in terms of geography? What kind of clients and so on? Yes. I think this is a complex question and for sure, actually, I don't want to give you the entire overview here. But I think this small business fields, nonwoven, polycondensation, our business lines, which we established just few years ago. They are small. And if you compare it with the big Filament business and the Carpet Yarn business. But we do have today an, let's say, an order of magnitude of €100,000,000 €150,000,000 And one big example was the nonwoven volume for this melt blown units, which is a positive effect out of the corona pandemic. Normally, we are selling 1, maybe 2 units a year, each €3,000,000 to €5,000,000 I think now we have about €50,000,000 in revenue here. And this is already a bigger revenue here, right? So we talk about €100,000,000 €150,000,000 for this type of business. And I think the only other thing that I would say is, Alessandro, there is those businesses are a lot more global. You obviously know our Filament business is still about 70% of manmade fibers. That's predominantly in China, but the other businesses, the non woven business, but also BCF and carpet yarn and so on, they're much more global and outside of that. And so it helps us to diversify our revenue pool both above and beyond of the Filament business, but also outside of China. So I think that's a positive for us. Okay. So if I look at the geographic split, you make 81% Asia. So I have to assume that part of this new nonwoven or milestone polycarbonization are in Asia but outside China? It's primarily Europe. It's I think the brutal truth is the European countries have realized that they are not able to fulfill the own demand. And that's why plenty of countries are building up capacities here. It's this €50,000,000 meltblown business is more or less beside a few, very few ones for the U. S. And very few ones for Asia, it's a European business. Okay. Thank you very much for asking my question. Have a nice day. Thank you. You too. Thanks. Thank you. Next question comes from Christian Arnott from MainFirst. Please go ahead. Yes, good afternoon. On your midterm target 16% to 18%, what do you need from the division? I mean, you were talking before for manmade fiber also in the midterm, this 13%, 14% EBITA margin that somehow run rate we can calculate. So what does it mean for Surface solutions and especially then the additive manufacturing part? Do you need to be breakeven to get the 16% to 18%? Are you still expecting loss making business in Additive Manufacturing and already achieving a 16% to 18%? Or do you have to be actually profitable in that area? So I think, Christian, I think the math is a very simple one. On a group level, consisting of 2 divisions, when we want to be between 16 18 on a group level and manmade mid teens. And Filip was clear, 14 or something like that. That means automatically now depending on the volume, what is required on the Service Solutions business, it's close to the 20%. And here, for sure, additive is not the decisive factor. It's really the profitability and the big chunk of our Service Solutions business. And you know it, it's a wide portfolio. We do have strong extremely strong service business. We have equipment business. We have commodity and material business. Everything is carrying different margin range. So and from that point of view, to achieve the given guidance, the 16% to 18% means 20% plus for Service Solutions is really depending on the cost out continued cost out efforts in Service Solution and to a certain extent, for sure, the volume will help when it's coming when the markets are coming back. And the additive part and I think Philippe gave an indication that we are, after completing all our measures here, so margin dilution will be below the 200 basis points. And that means it's not the additive topic, which is driving the game. I would agree. And then but obviously, also when you go back to our statements about the breakeven point for the additive business, we're expecting that that breakeven point is actually $20,000,000 $30,000,000 lower than what we previously were. And so we're expecting to achieve that and that will obviously also be a contributing factor. But back to Roland's point, it's really not the deciding factor in it. Do you want to share the information about the breakeven point? I mean you're saying $20,000,000 to $30,000,000 lower, so in absolute terms? What does it mean? No, I mean I think we said previously it's going to be $70,000,000 in that neighborhood. Obviously, hard to tell because it depends bit A little bit lower. A little bit lower, exactly. And I understood you correctly that I mean for manmade fiber you are I mean, 14% is good, 15% is probably challenging, but something like that, yes, between 13% and 15% is what you're aiming for in the, yes, for the coming years? Yes. That is exactly what we have in mind and what we see taking into account the market situation. And I was always clear the last years that the boom or the stable workload here is coming out of the consolidation in the Filament Chinese Filament Business. And that means today, we really deal with big players, big companies, EUR 100 business to be back in expect and we don't see the business to be back in regions which have been possible 5 years ago, coming close to the 20%, right? And this is simply not realistic anymore in this environment. And that's why the mid teens. Okay. Very good. Then a question maybe, I don't know if I should ask this question to you, but maybe nevertheless, you can share your personal opinion. On the dividend, I mean, Oerlikon was paying a large dividend the last couple of years. Now being in an environment where you have to reduce headcount, where lots of your workers actually are paid on the 80% of their salaries. So what's your thinking about future dividend or especially dividend for 2020? I know you're probably not I mean, the right person to ask. But nevertheless, I'd like to hear your opinion actually on that. No, I think we have to be very clear here. What happened in the past happened, and we had a good storyline, good reasons for doing so. Now in between, the economy has changed, our performance and our financial figures have changed. And I'm I never thought about a special dividend for 2020 and it's a great idea. But honestly No, look, I mean, I think that it's way too early to talk about that. We have a 4th quarter that we're focusing on to execute on. At the end of the day, we will make a proposal to the Board of Directors. We are aware that the dividend is a very important component of our value proposition to investors. And we want to maintain that. We want to be an attractive investment. It's very clear. But also what is clear is that the economic environment has completely changed and we will take that into consideration. What I will also tell you though is and that goes back to Roland's point is that obviously the special dividends that have been paid in the last 2 years were very, very clearly tied to the portfolio changes that we've made. And so I wouldn't confuse those. I think a regular dividend is an important value proposition for us to investors. We will look at that very critically when we make a recommendation to the Board of Directors But But personally, I believe a special dividend would be actually more of a reputation risk than anything else, having yet this kind of special situation we are everybody of us is in, I think it's not the time to actually pay special dividends. The next question comes from Sebastian Vogel from UBS. Please go ahead. Mr. Fogel, your line is open. Please go ahead. Sebastian, are you there? Yes. Can you hear me now? We can hear you. We can hear you, yes. That's perfect. Yes, sorry for that. And quickly with regard to the discontinued business and in the share of Additive Manufacturing in terms of sales. You mentioned that you have like €40,000,000 €50,000,000 of sales currently per annum. I was wondering if the medical business over there was contributing something to the forty-fifty or at the moment there were just no sales generated with that sort of vertical? No, the medical business was under $10,000,000 of sales, just under $10,000,000 of sales in 2000 or roughly $10,000,000 of sales in 2019. That's the right way to think about it. Okay, perfect. That's all. Thanks. Cheers. Thank you. The next question comes from Armin Rehbergar from ZKB. Please go ahead. Yes. Hello, gentlemen. Restructuring, you said that you will face restructuring costs of about €60,000,000 When I count it correctly, you have spent already €54,000,000 so still €6,000,000 to go. Is that correct? Or any changes in your program about the costs? No, I mean that's what we flagged. We're expecting about €5,000,000 to go in terms of charges in the Q4. And we confirmed the overall €60,000,000 Okay. Then I mean there's just one quarter to go and no guidance for Surface Solution. I understand it's difficult now, but you see a slight recovery in tooling, the biggest market and in automotive, aviation is still depressed. So that's already a basis. Or what's out there? Why you can't give a guidance? I mean, I think the answer is a very simple one. We know the 1st 9 months, September was a great month and October was also a very good one. And now if everything would be stable, it would be a simple exercise. The point is, every night I'm respect to corona. Countries are discussing lockdowns, partial lockdowns. And what we also see is an increasing infection rate. We see it in our sites and factories as well. And that's why we are simply cautious here. We say nobody knows what will be the situation in 2, 3 weeks. I know just 2 months to go, but the math is a simple one and everybody can you can do it by yourself. And I think for us there is just it's really a timing question. We think about that everywhere. It's hard to see if there's going to be any delays. We're really thinking that the trajectory of the end market recoveries and the stability in manmade fibers are there to stay. So we're fairly positive on that. But a temporary delay could certainly cause certain things to slip into the Q1. We're not seeing that right now, but it is We're not seeing that. That's not what we're trying to say, but it is incredibly We're not seeing that. That's not what we're trying to say, but it is incredibly difficult to predict what's going to happen in 2 weeks right now. Okay. Then regarding Additive Manufacturing, you closed Medical. What else do you close or really change there in Additive Manufacturing? And then what sales do you generate with Additive Manufacturing during Q4? Q3, I mean Q3. Yes. Maybe start with the last one. We don't break out additive manufacturing sales out of the quarter. We gave you an indication of the general size of the business in the previous question. And I would say it's very important actually that we have adjusted other structural cost items in Anadiv. Really when you think about SG and A type costs that we think were meant for a larger structure. So that sort of is the CHF5 1,000,000 of savings that we're expecting above and beyond of the closure of the medical business. But also very important and Roland made that point, the challenges that we saw in the medical business are idiosyncratic for that business. We continue to see a very good promise for that technology in other businesses and Roland mentioned that in aero, in automotive and in general industries. And so we're not shutting down any other segments in there. I think the medical challenges were again very idiosyncratic for that market because it's high regulatory burdens. But it's important for us. We're committed to that technology. We see actually it moving from prototyping to more serial production. That's a positive. And so I think Ron made that point that this is there aren't any further significant cuts here, but we are actually seeing green shoots on the commercial application. Thank you. The last question comes from Christian OBS from Baader Bank. Please go ahead. Yes. Thank you very much for taking the questions. 3 additional one, one very small one. What is the margin level in nonwoven compared to the average of manmade fiber? Then sorry for that, another one for Additive. You are reducing the headcount by approximately 120. Is it are these employees now in asset head for sale or really out? And how many employees are left? And the last one is a more going forward question. So the CapEx guidance is more or less stable, no addition. What kind of growth you can deliver in the current structure of the Surface Solutions? Or in other words, what kind of turnover you can achieve in the current structure before you have to increase CapEx again, maybe well above depreciation? Thank you very much. I think, similar answers. I think the margin level for the non woven business actually is a very positive one. For markets, the rationale is very simple to market, it was very hot. Everybody was asking for this melt blown equipment, and there are just few suppliers here. And we took an advantage here. The headcount reduction for Additive, 120 people. Now I'm looking to Filip. I think 80 something plus are coming from this medical business in the U. S. And all the rest is not equally, but shared or distributed across the remaining additive business. And the CapEx question also is actually simple to be answered. You know that we have been close to €1,600,000,000 revenue in OSS in 2019, 1.5, not 6. And we had actually a plan for figures slightly higher. And the capacity for this volume actually is installed. That means we do have technical capacity, maybe not people anymore, but technical capacity for revenue, I would say, of at least €1,600,000,000 Of course, it depends on the mix, yes? We there would be a boom in material. We have to increase capacity here. But overall, across the country, I would say 1.6% is easily to be done. Okay. Thank you very much and all the best for the Q4. Thank you. Thank you very much for your questions. With this as a last question, we would like to conclude today's call. Please don't hesitate to reach out to us in the Investor Relations team in case of any additional questions you would like to ask. Next reporting is scheduled for March 2 in the year 2021, when we will disclose the full year results for 2020. Sorry, we do look forward to speaking to you then again. Stay healthy. Stay safe. Goodbye.