Ladies and gentlemen, welcome also from my side. Today's presentation will be followed by a question-and-answer session. If you would like to ask a question, you may click the Q&A button on the left side of your screen and then raise your hand. If you're joining by phone, just press Star one. I would now like to turn the conference to Matthias Huenerwadel, CEO of Zehnder Group. Matt, the floor is yours.
Thank you very much, Alex. Okay, so I'm the third one to welcome you. Thank you very much for dialing in for our half-year update call of the Zehnder Group, and this on a sunny Friday and even in the vacation season. I will do the presentation in the known format. I will talk first about the first six months this year. René Grieder, our CFO, will then go more into the financial figures and explain them. And finally, there will be an outlook over the remaining six months, and we should have plenty of time for question and answers at the end of this presentation. So, first six months this year, I guess three topics: a further slowdown in the construction activities, then divestment of the climate ceiling solutions business, and the Siber acquisition that I would like to go into a little bit in more detail.
So, I guess I'm not able to say a whole lot of positive about our market environment. The current market weakness that we're facing is probably one of the biggest market slumps in decades, particularly in our largest markets, meaning Germany and France, and it proves to be stubbornly persistent. What you see here are the latest Euroconstruct statistics from June 2024. On the left, you see the housing completion in Europe, and you see that particularly Germany with -18% is really dark in the red, but also other big markets of us, Netherlands, for example, but also France are clearly negative. As you are aware, this is driving our ventilation business, which is mostly going into new build and completion of new housing. Also the renovation market is anemic, and that is driving our radiator business.
So I guess we're really not very lucky in the support of our key markets. And if you look at what that means for our key figures, yes, we do have a sharp decline in sales versus the comparable period in previous year with -15%. Albeit there is a certain phase effect that we had in 2023, in that we had a substantial backlog from 2022 going into the first half of 2023. We assume that this is an effect that amounts to roughly about EUR 20 million. And clearly, this decline in sales also had a major impact on our EBIT result. And you see at the EBIT before one-off effects came down from 9.6% the first half of 2023 to 6.6% before one-off effects or EUR 22.6 million.
Now, on top of that, we did have some one-off effects from mainly the divestment of our closed c eiling solutions activity, but also some selective restructuring, which amounted to roughly about EUR 10 million. And therefore, our operational EBIT is at EUR 12.45 million for the first half, which equates to 3.6%. So, key topics, clearly the slowdown and our reaction to it. And so we're now in the second or in third year in cost reduction programs, which continue. We have to adapt to the situation. But at the same time, I think we had with the divestment of climate ceiling solutions, really a major step also successfully concluded that hopefully will put us in a better position going forward in divesting this non-core activity.
But I think that's also important to say, even though we're not happy with the figures, we continue to invest into our strategic projects, but also in product innovations and in market coverage. So I'm really happy that we were able to acquire the Spanish company Siber, because, and I will tell you a little bit more about that in a few slides, that really puts us in a much better market position, particularly for the southern European market. But if you look at the segments, yes, ventilation was severely affected with -17%. Most of the base effect actually happened in that segment, -17% in Europe. Obviously, that is very much linked to the lower activities in the new construction. There, obviously, our biggest market, Germany, had a major impact, but also the other big markets like Holland, et cetera, did not help out.
What is maybe a little bit positive is that some markets show some slightly positive sales trend. Here I can refer to the United Kingdom, but also Spain. In North America, the situation is slightly different. There, our large market is Canada. The U.S. market is just a market that is about to develop. There we also had the same situation with a backlog going into 2023. Hence there is also a minus, but what we see there is actually signs of stabilization. If you look at the order intake, actually order intake is better than it was a year ago. Then in Asia-Pacific, that is China for us, the situation remains difficult. The oversupply of housing leads to very, very minimal new construction business, and hence that activity further shrink by 32% in the first half versus the first half of 2023.
Here, I just wanted to show you a project. I have mentioned that before. In Canada, you actually have to put in heat recovery ventilation by law in all new buildings. That means that obviously we can benefit from some major project developments. What you see here is the biggest project that is currently happening in Canada in Vancouver. You see that we're talking about 6,000 rental housing units covering a big square footage. We're happy to report that we are the chosen one, at least for the first two phases for this project. But as I mentioned before, also renovation activities are anemic. And that meant that in radiator business, we again, after already declines in the previous year and the year before, had lower sales. That downward trend was particularly happening again in Germany, but also in France.
They happen to be our two largest radiator markets t hat doesn't help. But it's okay, even though there is a small decline on the market Switzerland, also an important market, UK, and Italy. But obviously we were forced to continue our adaptation in production capacities, but also in reducing personnel. Now, North America is a little bit of a different story t hat's a niche market. And I think if you compare size-wise to Europe, obviously it's of lesser relevance. And I think, you know, over the total year, probably there are certain shifts in when distributors buy. Yes, probably the renovation activity is also rather subdued. But nevertheless, I guess in the short term, midterm, we do feel that this is a rather stable business. And then finally, China, and there I reported already last time that we're actually getting out of the production of radiators.
You see, we are now back at the mere EUR 3 million. So it's really a business that is phasing out. Also here, just an example of a typical radiator project where we were able to put in new radiators, 90 thereof in an old Bavarian palace. And why were we able to do that? Because they had to be exactly to the dimension. And as I mentioned before, that's actually our business model. We are make-to-order, and we can basically in a renovation product specify each individual radiator exactly to the customer's liking, be it in dimension, but also be it in terms of color. So yes, obviously growth we don't see right now. Nevertheless, we have a strategy. We believe in our strategy. We also believe in ventilation as a growth activity. We are continuously investing into the ventilation business. That's going to be our growth engine.
I think it's positive to report, and that's why we also moved it from question mark to star, that our clean air filtration business for commercial filtration is steadily growing double-digit. This meanwhile at a relevant contribution to the overall result, but also heat exchangers where we have a unique position globally in that we are clearly number one for these plate heat exchangers in our industry on a worldwide basis. But nevertheless, core obviously, like ventilation, like our business is suffering from the current market slump. On the radiator side, I guess the important step was really to divest the ceiling activity, which was reported or is reported under the radiator business. And clearly there we have to adapt to the volumes that we are able to acquire.
Here, I mean, just to give you a figure, we're probably around 35% down in volume in comparison to pre-COVID and pre-COVID radiator business was a rather stable business. There was no driver that would have caused some special sales. So realistically, we are really on an all-time record low. The question is obviously when is it picking back up to some extent. So, while we cannot wait and not do anything, we are really reducing costs and capacities, but at the same time, at one point in time, we feel comfortable that there will be a certain recovery. So, maybe to the divestment of climate ceiling solutions, just a couple of words. This is a business that is requiring core competency in project management. The value add was relatively small in the supply chain and to production.
This core competency really does not represent the DNA of the Zehnder Group. We realized that and therefore decided to actually divest this known core activity. We're happy that we were able to do that. We're not so happy that this came along with a one-off loss of 8.1 million that is in the result for the first half year 2024. But it's also important to say that this activity, while we were able to carve it out and were trying to make a turnaround, was loss-making over the last several years. It's also important to note that there is another activity that is different, and that's radiant ceiling panel. Zehnder continues to produce this radiant ceiling panel. We divested the climate ceiling solutions mostly for office purposes. In German, that's Geschlossenedecken, whereas the radiant ceiling panels, we continue.
Why do we continue? Here you see a project with these radiant ceiling panels. That's actually an alternative to gas heaters for buildings like this gym, but also for industrial buildings. That actually is quite a promising market and goes very well along with the radiator business because it actually is also heat pump capable and is a very good alternative to what is the standard in most of these applications, which is gas heating. Now, acquisition Siber. Why are we happy about that? First of all, you saw before the Spanish market is a market that is already in a better shape than most of the other European markets. It is also at a low, but the forecast is that actually the Spanish market is able to grow over the next five years more than all the other European markets.
With Siber, together also with the activity that we already have, we're clearly number one in the residential heat recovery and energy recovery market. Now, the penetration rate in that market is going up. That has also to do that by October 25, Spain will adopt new regulations, which mean that they need to get conformed with the EU energy efficiency directives. And we feel with Siber that really has a very good market access, mostly into multifamily homes, where we traditionally have been rather weak. We have the right company that is able to benefit from that, first of all, penetration increase, but also market growth. On the other hand, it's also a good opportunity for additional export business because on the slide before, you saw one unit that they're going to present in September and will launch.
And that's a unit that is also combining not just ventilation, but also cooling. So in terms of dimensions, in terms of quality standards, but also in terms of features that you have on these units, it is very much geared up for the southern European market. And that's a market, if you compare it to the northern European market, where Zehnder has been relatively weaker. And therefore, I think we, through our sales channel that are existing, we can help Siber to grow in these markets. So yes, it has been an expensive acquisition. We are paying a strategic premium, but we are convinced that we will have a successful acquisition, also thanks to the cultural fit. We also put in place a dedicated team combined from Zehnder people, but also Siber people to make it a full success.
I can guarantee you that many of our competitors envy us that we were able to secure that deal. So far for the first half, René, why don't you take over?
Thank you, Matt. So as Matt mentioned, we have a challenging market environment and then also connected sales and operating result decline. We continue with cost reduction, but we also continue to invest, and that is then reflected in the overall result. From the sales side, there was a decline for both activities. So for the ventilation, it was 70%, and for the radiator, it was 13%. Again, for the ventilation, there was a base effect due to the backlog from 2021 last year, and therefore also the decline was sharper. We had no M&A effect, and also the foreign exchange effects were minor. So it's mainly the organic situation, which you see here.
From the country view, so nearly all countries were affected by a declining sales development, except for the UK. There was a small increase in sales in 2024 in the first six months. Especially the two big markets were affected with a decline, Germany and France, with a strong decline in the first six months. In North America, the decline was 16%, but now there we see a certain stabilization. The sharpest decline was in Asia-Pacific, mainly in China, so 28%, and in Europe, it was 14%, still the most relevant market for us, with 80% of the portion that we sell in Europe. It was 15% in North America and only 4% in Asia-Pacific, so it's mainly China. From the profitability side, this decline in sales is also seen in the EBIT result.
So the EBIT before one-off effects was 6.6% EBIT margin, and the decline was 42% to EUR 22.6 million. We continue to invest, so we continue to invest in research and development, new products, also market expansion, for example, in North America, IT, new ecosystem in North America, but also service cloud in Europe to serve our customer better. And we also continue to invest in sustainability. After this, one-off effect already mentioned by Matt is EUR 8.1 million for the sale of the climate ceiling solutions business and further one-off effects of EUR 2 million, many selective restructuring cases. The EBIT was only EUR 12.5 million on EBIT margin of 3.6%, which is a significant sharp decline compared to last year. Then our two segments. Ventilation contributed 59% of the total sales. As already mentioned, we had a sales decrease for both segments.
From the EBIT side, we were able to secure a double-digit EBIT for the ventilation business with 10.5%, even though also there the decrease was sharp to EUR 21.5 million. For the radiator business, before one-off effects, it was more or less break-even with EUR 1.1 million EBIT. Due to the declining volume, we still have about 30% less volumes compared to pre-COVID. So it's really significant, and we implemented a lot of cost reduction measures, but due to the footprint that we have and also the fixed cost base, it is really significant to have 30% less volumes compared to pre-COVID. I'd like to have a closer look to the three last half years. If we make a comparison between the second half of 2023 and the first half of 2024, then at least we were able to stabilize the margin.
So in the second half of 2023, we had 6.7% EBIT margin, and in the first six months of 2024, 6.6% EBIT margin before one-off effects. From the sales development, what we see here for the ventilation, it was an increase in the first six months compared to the second six months of 2023 of 4%. And for the radiator business, it was a decline of 12%. I think here's worth to mention. Normally, we have more sales for ventilation in the first six months due to the holiday periods in the second half of the summer holiday and also in the Christmas New Year situation. And in the radiators, exactly the opposite.
Normally, we have more sales in the second half of the year due to the construction cycle or renovation cycle that a lot of construction sites are then to be prepared for the winter season, and we have higher sales in October and November normally for the radiator business. It has also an effect on the cash flow development. So the cash flow generated, operating cash flow was EUR 14.3 million the first six months, and the net liquidity on the side increased to EUR 53 million despite of the dividend that we paid and also the 25% share that we bought from Caladair to get 100%, where we paid EUR 4.7 million in the first six months. We still have a very high equity ratio, so the equity ratio was 68% by end of June, so a very healthy balance sheet still.
So, overall we are taking the necessary steps to improve our financial performance, and also we lay the foundation for profitable growth in mid and long term. We have reduced the headcount by about 350 FTEs over the last 12 months. We have implemented different cost measures. We also implemented further cost-saving measures, for example, headcount reduction in production in Germany due to the low volumes, but also further headcount reduction, also closure of an office in Shanghai in China due to the weak market environment. Then again, the disinvestment of the non-core climate ceiling solutions activity, and then we invested further in R&D to strengthen our innovation pipeline, but we also invested in market presence in IT and sustainability initiatives. And the biggest investment, of course, was the acquisition of Siber in Spain, where we closed the transaction in July.
With that, I would like to hand over to Matt again for the outlook.
Thank you very much, René. Yes, I guess while there are in some markets some signs of a recovery, early signs maybe, I'm afraid for the large key markets, we are not comfortable yet that we are there yet, and there is insecurity. And that is true for the new-built segment, but it's obviously also true for the renovation market. And as a consequence, we have to further adapt, and we are actively going after additional cost-savings measures to adjust to the situation. While, and we mentioned that now a couple of times, not endangering our strategic investments.
So realistically, 2024 proves to become a transition year where we are trying to do really all the homework and then come out with a clean table when hopefully the recovery will start in 2025 at one point in time. I mean, it's clear that we have sales that will be substantially reduced versus last year. We at this stage go with an assessment of somewhere in between EUR 670 million and EUR 700 million. You also saw that the EBIT margin we were able to stabilize. That's why we're also anticipating an EBIT margin at comparable level before one-off effects like in the first half. But if you look at almost a little bit tired to refer to the midterm targets, because obviously midterm targets, they should happen at one point in time. If you look at the midterm targets, obviously we're still quite a distance away.
And that means that we are waiting for the market recovery. I think we're doing the right things to then really benefit from it. And here, I just would like to give you a few facts. I mean, it's a fact that 25% of the Swiss population has hay fever. That's not me saying that, that's the University Hospital Zurich. It's a fact that 20%-25% of all Swiss housing, I'm sure in other countries it's the same way, are affected by mold. And that's not only unhealthy, that's also expensive to remove and ultimately is damaging the structure. It's a fact that two-thirds of all the classrooms, and again, that's Switzerland because they have the statistics, air quality is insufficient.
If you consider that 90% of the time we are all spending indoors, I guess these are all topics you should and you would want to address. I'm not even talking about noise if you live at the busy road or smell or other pollution exposures or even security. With our products, obviously we do address these topics. It's also a fact that 40% of all the energy consumption is in buildings and dwellings, and therefore also up to 37% of the CO2 equivalent emissions. Our HRV, ERV products, they save eight times more energy than what they use over their lifetime. That means that obviously we also contribute largely to the sustainability topic, but at the same time, with increasing energy costs, it can also be a substantial saving for the individual customer.
And again, that's not something that we made up, but that's the Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts that did this analysis for us. So we believe that we have the right strategy going forward. We understand that it takes patience also from the investor side, but we believe that we are making the necessary steps to really get out of this, let's say, market crisis or at least market weakness in a positive way and hopefully not stronger than before. So that's what I wanted to present together with René, and I guess now we're going over to the next part, the question and answers.
We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question from the webinar may click the Q&A button on the left side of the screen and then click the Raise Your Hand button.
If you are connected via phone, please press Star followed by one on your telephone keypad. You will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press the Lower Your Hand button from the webinar or press Star and two on your telephone. Anyone who has a question may queue up now. The first question is from Martin Hüsler from ZKB. Please go ahead. Mr. Hüsler, we cannot hear you. Mr. Hüsler, your line is open. We cannot hear you. I will now take the next question from Urs Emminger from Research Partners AG. Please go ahead.
Hello and thanks for the presentation. I have two questions. The first one is regarding the Zehnder acquisition. You paid a little bit more than EUR 80 million for that. How do you going to account for that?
Do you write down the goodwill against the equity and how much would that be? Which leads to the follow-up question of what would be the equity ratio at the end of July this year? The next question is more on the market. I just read that Bosch is buying the ventilation business of Johnson Controls. How does it affect your market position?
René, I suggest you are answering the first one. I will take up the second question.
Yes. So there are new regulations regarding Swiss GAAP FER concerning acquisition. So we have to do a purchase price allocation for at least partially for the goodwill, and then the rest will be deducted from the equity. So that is still in finalization, but the bigger part of the amount will be in the goodwill.
So we will have a significant impact on the equity ratio at the end, but we do not make a forecast. It's not finalized yet, the purchase price allocation calculation.
Okay, and then the second question regarding Bosch acquiring the Johnson Controls/Hitachi business. That's a company that is not in the ventilation activity. I'm talking about the acquisition. Bosch is to a smaller extent. What it shows is that there is obviously quite a substantial consolidation development in the HVAC market. It's not the first one. We saw the acquisition of Viessmann. We saw the acquisition of Arbonia. We saw, or actually there is an imminent acquisition of the Purmo Group. And yes, obviously that shows the interest in the HVAC market overall. I think people acquiring in Europe are mostly interested in the heat pump business.
That is true for the Asian acquirers and also for the situation with Viessmann because that will be a growing market, probably also a subsidized market. And what they're seeking is access into this market. Now, the other big topic is obviously the AC air conditioning market, and ventilation is really a little bit a niche. And our strategy has been and will continue to be to really be the expert and the specialist. If people are talking about energy and heat recovery and ventilation, they should think about Zehnder. And what we see over and over again are not the large companies or our competitors, but smaller companies that are able to really become relevant, sometimes even dominant in some local markets. And Zehnder is such a very typical example, and they focus and they really get good at what they're doing.
And I think that's our approach in that regard. Our business for the really large company is probably not as interesting because it's a fragmented market. You have different climate zones, you have different solutions, you have different regulations. And that's why we are actually not so concerned about them big players at this stage. Yes, everybody's talking about ventilation as well. In China, you have some of the big players that are pushing into the market, trying to come in with some standard solutions, but also there, even though we are going down in the sales, that's not related to market share loss. It's really related to the declining market. So I hope that answers your question, Mr. Emminger.
But yes, there is quite some activity in the market, but we actually even see it sometimes as an opportunity because they really focus on other topics and not so much on the topic that we really want to focus on, which is the ventilation and all the additional features that you can add as a value for the customers.
Thank you.
The next question is from Lothar Lubinetzki from Octavian. Please go ahead.
Good morning, good afternoon. Can I start maybe with the most difficult question at the beginning? So I understand H1 was difficult. H2 will be still difficult. Maybe the decline is a lower rate. With a bit of luck, sales stabilize next year.
If I assume that they do so, would you be able to increase your margins and could you give us an indication by roughly how much simply due to the cost measures you are taking?
René, you want to take that?
I can start and then Matt, you can add. At the end, we have a guidance now for the full year. That means net margin before one-off effects of 6%-7%. That is a short-term view. We still have a lot of uncertainties, I would say, for 2025 and also 2026. In the short term, that's a realistic margin that we can achieve considering that we have a lot of cost-saving measures already implemented and it's still ongoing. On the other side, we continue to invest. It's really not to squeeze out everything.
It's also to make sure that we strengthen our foundation for further profitable growth when we see a better market environment again. So it's really to balance between cost-saving and further investment and a certain financial result at the end. But we clearly had used the cost structure when we also had significant selling price increases due to the inflation this year, and that was also compensated with other cost reductions.
All right. So basically, if sales stay at the current levels next year, it will be more or less a wash on the margin side.
We do not make a guidance for next year, but for the second half of the year, that is based on our guidance, more or less the assumption, yes, that we continue to invest and we also compensate with cost-saving measures partially the decline.
Thanks, René.
Then did I understand that correctly that in North America, you are seeing signs of a recovery?
That's correct. And I was talking about the ventilation market, which today still is largely Canada. And there, if we look at the order intake pattern, it actually is in a better situation than a year ago. That's not referring to the order backlog. There is the opposite because we got into the 2023 year with also in Canada with a big backlog originally due to supply chain issues. Now, the big opportunity, and that obviously is the one that takes time, is really the U.S. market. And in the U.S. market, we are currently really investigating and actually about to sanction on which areas we would like to focus on because it's a huge market. And realistically, you do have in each state different regulations.
So that's already something that you have to fully understand what are they today and how are they changing. And clearly, California, but also the East Coast are the most attractive markets where we are now building up a sales representation, be it by our own people, but also through partners. At the same time, one of the states that is highly interesting, at least because of its economic power, but probably where we have to still tweak our product portfolio is Texas. And one of the big challenges in the U.S. market is that you do have people that are familiar with heat recovery ventilation and obviously they want it, but a large portion of the market is not that familiar. So we really also have to do in parallel a lot of education of the market.
And I mean, that takes some time, but we absolutely believe in that market going forward. And I think that's really the opportunity, maybe not so short term, but midterm that we will see some major increases in the US market on the ventilation side.
Thank you, Matt. And I'm looking now at radiators with volumes 30%-35% below the pre-COVID level. If the lackluster renovation business continues to head south, at what point would you be forced to think about plant closures?
Well, we have obviously the situation that we have not really duplications in productions. So each location has a particular portion of the product range, and only with a very limited portion, we have the same products produced in different locations.
Now, at the same time, I guess it's also fair to say that we do have in what we're doing really good market positions and that we do have always opportunities to still reduce the cost structure. Obviously, we're not happy with the result now, but at the same time, I also would question why should it further go down? I mean, I don't know, but why should it further go down? Because it's really the same amount of installed base with radiators. So we're really seeing an all-time record. But it's clear should it go further down, obviously we have to then consider even bigger steps. And then maybe lastly, a tricky question. With all the M&A activities that are going on in Europe, have you ever been approached? I think there are many people that would love to acquire us.
But at the same time, you also know our situation in that the family clearly wants to stay independent and wants to have seen the stay independent and actually pass on into the next generation. So for us, that's another question.
That was clear. Thank you very much.
The next question is from Fabian Piasta from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I got three, if I may. So first of all, could you please provide some details on the gross margin improvement that we've seen in H1? The second is whether we can expect any one-off in the second half. And the third one, whether you are expecting a similar CapEx demand for H2 as we've seen in H1. Thank you.
René, do you start with the gross margin?
Yes, so the gross margin, I think that's a positive development.
We were able to keep our gross margin and had a strong focus on it. So the main issue that we really have are the volumes and not really the gross margin for both activities, for the radiator business and for the ventilation. We have a positive development on that side. That's on the price level, but also on the performance side to achieve savings again. So there was a strong focus, and that is also seen now in the P&L. One-off effects? One-off effects. When we have significant one-off effects the first six months. We always work with scenarios at the end, and we adopt our structure to the market situation. We all know there are uncertainties, but so far, the first six months shows is EUR 10 million.
Then finally, CapEx, you want to say something there?
CapEx, we normally do not make the guidance for CapEx, but also there, we are careful on one side. On the other side, we also invest in areas where we see potential. So it's to find the right balance, but we do not make the guidance for the CapEx. But overall, we are careful with investments where we do not see a clear sign for further need. And normally, CapEx are connected to capacity on one side or sometimes to new products. And as mentioned before, we invest in new products. So if we have a CapEx need there for tools, then we will invest.
Okay, thank you.
As a reminder, for questions from the webinar, please click the Q&A button on the left side of the screen and then click the raise your hand button.
If you're connected via phone, please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad. Moira, I'm not sure, but I think Martin Hüsler wanted to do a second dial. Mr. Hüsler, you can ask your question.
Oh, still mute. Okay.
Mr. Hüsler, your line is open.
Can you hear me?
Yes, I hear you now.
Oh, you can hear me now. Sorry. Yeah, I dropped out of the line. So sorry if this question has been asked before. But just to make very clear, your guidance includes the Siber acquisition, right?
Yes, it includes the de-investment of the closed ceiling activity, and it also includes the Siber acquisition. And also there, we have this purchase price allocation topic. So we need to capitalize partially the intellectual property and then write it off.
But I think with the divestment of climate ceilings and with the contribution of Siber, obviously, you should end up with a net positive contribution, right?
At the end, the main it's 5% of the sales, and the main impact is on the 95 remaining part. So yes, there will probably, yeah, there will be a small positive impact from the Siber side, but we have 95% that counts at the end.
Sorry, what do you mean by 95%?
95% is the sales of old Siber. Just to show it in relation. So the main part is the business that we already have. And we still have a small part, the de-investment of the climate ceiling solution and the Siber, and that is really for the total group, a small part of the business at the end.
Okay, okay.
And maybe even a bit more detail, but can you give us the impact on cash flow statement of the divestment of climate ceiling solutions?
Well, it's shown in the cash flow statement; it's about EUR 3 million cash out.
EUR 3 million cash out. Okay.
And therefore, due to the difficult business situation, we give them some financial support for the next year or two years. And there we have a downside and upside. The upside is a possible earn-out. So it is not completely closed now with the closing of the transaction. So it's still somehow connected to the business for the next years or at least end 2026.
Thank you.
There are no questions at this time.
Well, if there are no questions any longer, first of all, we are available also if there are individual requests. You know where to contact us.
I would like to thank you very much for attending today's call. I learned it is beautiful weather in Switzerland, so I wish you all a very nice weekend.