Good morning, and welcome to SNC-Lavalin's fourth quarter 2020 earnings conference call. As a reminder all participants are listen only mode and the conference is being recorded. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. To join the question queue you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. If you need assistance during the conference call, you may signal operator by pressing star then zero. All in I would now like to turn the conference over to Denis Jasmin, Vice President, Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining the call. Our Q4 earnings announcement was released this morning, and we have posted a corresponding slide presentation on the Investors section of our website. The recording of today's call and its transcript will also be available on our website within 24 hours. With me today are Ian Edwards, President and Chief Executive Officer, and Jeff Bell, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Before we begin, I would like to ask everyone to limit themselves to one or two questions to ensure that all analysts have an opportunity to participate. You are welcome to return to the queue for any follow-up questions. I would like to draw your attention to slide two. Comments made on today's call may contain forward-looking information.
This information, by its nature, is subject to risks and uncertainties, and as such, actual results may differ materially from the views expressed today. For further information on these risks and uncertainties, please consult the company's relevant filing on SEDAR. These documents are also available on our website. Also, during the call, we may refer to certain non-IFRS measures. These measures are defined and reconciled with comparable IFRS measures in our MD&A, which can be found on SEDAR on our website. Management believes that these non-IFRS measures provide additional insight into the company's financial results, and certain investors may use this information to evaluate the company's performance from period to period. Now I'll pass the call over to Ian Edwards. Ian?
Thanks, Denis, and good morning, everyone. Turning to slide four, 2020 really has been a transformative year for SNC-Lavalin on many fronts. We took a series of actions focused really on two objectives. One, reducing the company's risk profile as it relates to our legacy LSTK business. Two, accelerating SNC-Lavalin's transition to a leading professional services and project management company. The actions we took included the closure, sale, and strategic divestment of a vast majority of the resources business, including a binding agreement to sell the oil and gas business announced on February 9th. A review of all significant litigation matters and claims receivable in order to provide the most fulsome assessment of outstanding risk, and the continued wind down of the LSTK projects backlog by approximately CAD 1 billion.
We also demonstrated through COVID-19 pandemic, both our agility in responding to unprecedented global events and the resilience of our engineering services business. We quickly pivoted to respond to the challenging environment triggered by the pandemic, moving to remote working, reducing costs, and enhancing our digital transformation. We have also collaborated with our clients to develop new risk-capped contracting models, and we have leveraged our public sector expertise and diverse service offering in our core markets to win new, and in many cases, groundbreaking work that reflects our ability to meet the changing needs of a post-COVID world. These include some major nuclear transport infrastructure and social housing projects. As we move to 2021, engineering services is strongly positioned to meet the needs of our clients for renewed infrastructure investment and the development of low carbon assets.
Turning to slide five, I'll now walk you through the Q4 highlights and the 2021 outlook for each of the engineering services segments, starting with EDPM. EDPM finished the year strongly across all regions, underpinned by robust performance in our roads, railway, and defense service offering. Overall, EDPM generated strong cash flow and backlog grew by 8.9% in 2020, fueled by road and rail wins in the U.K., rapid transit in the U.S., and new water and O&M projects in Asia Pacific, amongst others. With a robust pipeline of CAD 27 billion ahead to 2021, combined with government's commitments to infrastructure spending, we are really optimistic about the return to growth in our core geographies, particularly in the second half of the year. We have an ambitious growth plan focused on areas where we anticipate increased investment and where we have deep expertise, specifically in transportation infrastructure, water, environment, and defense.
In terms of geographies, the U.S. is a central focus. We see significant potential to deepen our penetration into the U.S. market. We believe there could be much larger infrastructure spending bill passed under the new Biden administration. Turning to slide six and highlights of the recent EDPM project wins. In February, SNC-Lavalin and its partners won a CAD 1.3 billion contract to design and build Phase 2 of the East West Rail project, one of the largest rail projects in the U.K. This project features a new alliance contracting model in which all partners work as an integrated team and the risks are shared and capped amongst them. It signals a new collaborative way of working with partners and clients. It's the model that we hope to replicate for other projects in other countries. Moving to slide seven and highlights from our nuclear segment.
Nuclear continued to perform well through Q4. A number of multi-year project extensions were awarded on contracts in the U.S. and Canada during the quarter. As we head into 2021, the pipeline is strong. We see significant opportunity for nuclear going forward, fueled by market demand and our own market leading position. These opportunities include nuclear new build and reactor support, a number of projects coming up for tender by the U.S. Department of Energy, where SNC-Lavalin already has a strong track record of wins, and nuclear decommissioning and environmental opportunities. Turning to slide eight, you can see some of the recent wins and industry awards, which include contracts in Canada and the U.S., as well as service support for the CANDU fleet in Canada and internationally.
Moving to slide nine and infrastructure services, the segment had a strong quarter reflecting the essential nature of infrastructure services in supporting critical infrastructure through the pandemic. Operations and maintenance continued to operate at full service levels, with strong activity in power, grid, and industrial solutions. Linxon was also a strong contributor to the quarter and saw a healthy intake of orders. As we move to 2021, we see a strong pipeline of opportunity for Linxon, particularly in the transportation and transmission sectors. We are also focusing our business development in O&M in the U.S., the U.K., and Canadian transportation sectors as governments continue to invest in new infrastructure.
Turning to slide 10, you can see the breadth of work in the infrastructure services backlog, ranging from design, building, and refurbishment of hydro plants to defense work and COVID-19 related contracts, including a medical supply contract and the delivery of mobile health units. Turning to slide 11 and the capital segment. With traffic volumes down by 44% on the 407 in Q4 due to return to lockdown, there were no dividend payments in the quarter. As the province comes out of lockdown, we anticipate an increase in traffic levels and continue to believe in the long-term fundamentals of the highway in the country's largest city and economic hub. Our remaining concessions continue to perform well and have not been significantly impacted by the pandemic. Moving to slide 12 on infrastructure EPC projects.
As discussed during our February announce update, the three remaining Canadian light rail projects continue to progress well. We expect to continue to reduce the backlog by approximately CAD 1 billion by the end of 2021. Two of the projects are expected to be complete by the end of 2022, with the last remaining one, the REM, to be delivered in 2024. While these LSTK projects wind down, we do see light rail as a significant growth opportunity as governments invest in low-carbon rapid transit. SNC-Lavalin will continue to leverage its expertise in the light rail space. With a focus on collaborative and risk-capped project management and construction management services. Turning to slide 13 on the resources segment. With the agreement to sell the oil and gas business, our remaining resources business is focused on services in the mining and metallurgy sector.
We have a long history in M&M, which generates revenues of CAD 163 million in 2020 and will be part of the ongoing engineering services offering. Moving to slide 14. I'd like to conclude my presentation by focusing on SNC-Lavalin's strategic priorities for 2021. As I mentioned at the beginning of this call, we are focused on de-risking the business and generating consistent earnings and cash flow. This remains our focus, and we have five key priorities. Closing the oil and gas sale, successfully running off the LSTK projects, continuing to drive consistent performance in engineering services, building a connected, collaborative organization that can work and support clients remotely from anywhere in the world, and most importantly, driving growth and sustainable outcomes for our clients across the company. Turning to slide 15, we are focused on a number of growth drivers.
The first is centered on our core markets, the U.S., the U.K., and Canada, where we can leverage our expertise in nuclear and transportation infrastructure, amongst other areas, to expand our market penetration across our full service offering. The second, as I mentioned earlier, is to expand our major projects business in Canada, U.S., and U.K. through risk-capped opportunities. We are also focused on expanding our operations and maintenance business, our water, environment, and defense in core geographies where we see opportunity to build our footprint. These efforts are underpinned by enhanced digital capabilities, which improve productivity and delivery and lower the carbon footprint for our clients. The focus on digital transformation is closely connected to another key growth driver and the priority of the company, which is sustainability.
As engineers who design, build, and service the built environment, we have an integral role in enabling countries and companies to meet their carbon reduction targets. As part of that effort, we have a comprehensive range of services around helping our clients in engineering net zero. Additionally, we are further developing our own ESG strategies, and we will be sharing our targets with you in Q2. In the second half of the year, we'll also be ready to share the specifics around an overall growth strategy for the business as we head into 2022, and we really look forward to sharing that with you. With that, I'll now pass the call to Jeff.
Thank you, Ian. Good morning, everyone. Turning to slide 17. As expected, the fourth quarter included a strong performance from SNCL Engineering Services, while SNCL Projects experienced a significant loss. As announced on February 9th, Q4 2020 SNCL Projects included an aggregate amount of CAD 480 million in charges, adjustments to provisions and claims receivable reductions, and a cost reassessment of the remaining Canadian LSTK infrastructure projects. Capital segment adjusted EBIT totaled CAD 19 million compared to CAD 32 million, as no dividend was received in the quarter from Highway 407. Corporate SG&A expenses totaled CAD 96 million and included CAD 48 million of negative adjustment to the provision for the Pyrrhotite case litigation, CAD 4 million of pension equalization provision, and CAD 6 million invested in digital transformation initiatives.
All of this resulted in an IFRS net loss from continuing operations of CAD 323 million, or CAD 1.84 per diluted share in Q4 2020, compared with a net loss of CAD 180 million, or CAD 1.03 per diluted share for the corresponding period of 2019. The adjusted net loss from PS&PM in Q4 2020 amounted to CAD 269 million, or CAD 1.53 per diluted share, compared with an adjusted net income of CAD 110 million or CAD 0.62 per diluted share in the corresponding period of 2019. Looking at the segments in more detail. On slide 18, we can see that SNCL Engineering Services delivered solid results and continues to be resilient through COVID-19. The Q4 revenue totaled CAD 1.5 billion, representing a 3% decrease compared to Q4 2019, in line with our expectations, but was 5% higher than Q3 2020.
Segment adjusted EBIT was CAD 153 million, lower than Q4 2019 but 7.5% higher compared to Q3 2020 and represented a margin of 10.1% higher than our expectations. Backlog remained strong and totaled CAD 10.9 billion. The EDPM segment revenue totaled CAD 943 million and its segment adjusted EBIT amounted to CAD 85 million, representing a margin of 9%, in line with our long-term target range of 8%-10%. The EBIT amount was lower than Q4 2019, mainly reflecting the impact of COVID-19 across some markets, such as aviation and commercial property and lower revenue from the Middle East. This was partially offset by the strength of transportation and defense markets within the core region of the U.K. and Europe. EDPM backlog remained strong at the end of the year at CAD 2.9 billion, an increase of nearly 9% compared to the end of 2019.
The nuclear segment revenue totaled CAD 245 million and the segment adjusted EBIT amounted to CAD 36 million, representing a margin of 14.8%, in line with our long-term target range of 13%-15%. The EBIT amount was lower than Q4 2019, mainly due to a decreased level of activity on certain major Canadian projects that reached major delivery milestones earlier in 2020, partially offset by a higher contribution from the U.S. and Europe. The Infrastructure Services revenue totaled CAD 334 million, largely in line with Q4 2019. The segment adjusted EBIT amounted to CAD 32 million, an increase of 58% and 27% compared to Q4 2019 and Q3 2020, respectively. The EBIT increase was mainly due to a higher level of revenue from certain operation and maintenance contracts, from higher activities on project management and construction management services, lower overhead costs, and a higher contribution from Linxon.
Turning now to SNCL Projects on slide 19. In line with our LSTK exit strategy and the expected continuing backlog runoff of our major LSTK construction projects, revenues for Q4 2020 continued to decrease. SNCL Projects revenues fell by 57% compared to Q4 2019 to CAD 152 million. The Repo resources and infrastructure EPC project segments had negative segment adjusted EBIT of CAD 93 million and CAD 319 million respectively, mainly due to charges, adjustments to provisions, and claims receivable reductions, as well as a cost reassessment of the remaining Canadian LSTK infrastructure projects, as we announced on February 9th. Moving on to slide 20. Net cash generated from operating activities was CAD 122 million in 2020, compared to a use of CAD 355 million in 2019.
Net cash generated from operating activities was CAD 105 million in the quarter, compared with CAD 312 million in Q4 2019, with the lower cash generation primarily driven by a usage of cash from discontinued operations in Q4 2020. SNCL Engineering Services continued to generate strong cash flow from operations with CAD 250 million in the quarter due to strong EBIT conversion and a low day sales outstanding in the EDPM segment of 64 days, a nine-day improvement compared to 2019. For 2021, the strong operating cash flow attributes of SNCL Engineering Services are expected to be partially offset by our return to a more normalized day sales outstanding level, as early government payment programs related to COVID-19 are expected to wind down during the year.
In addition, SNCL Projects are expected to see a usage of operating cash flow as a result of the significant backlog to be run off during the year and the timing of the collection of COVID-19 related claims. As a result, operating cash flow is expected to be largely breakeven this year. At the end of December 2020, the company had CAD 933 million of cash, and its recourse debt remained stable with December 2019. The company's net recourse debt to EBITDA ratio on the revolver credit facility, calculated in accordance with the terms of the company's credit agreement, was 2.1x , well below the required covenant level of 3.75x . Finally, turning to slide 21. The company expects that SNCL Engineering Services revenue for 2021 should increase by a low single-digit percentage compared to 2020.
As the COVID-19 pandemic only started to significantly impact the business in Q2 2020, the company expects a low single-digit percent contraction in SNCL Engineering Services revenue for Q1, and then year-over-year revenue increases in the second, third, and fourth quarters this year. We also expect SNCL Engineering Services segment adjusted EBIT margin to be between 8% and 10% and continue to target the same long-term EBIT margin percentage for each segment. This concludes my presentation. We can now open the line for questions. Thank you.
Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. To join the question queue, you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. You will hear a tone acknowledging your request. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing any keys. To withdraw your question, please press star then two. We will pause for a moment as callers join the queue. Our first question comes from Yuri Lynk of Canaccord Genuity. Please go ahead.
Good morning, guys.
Good morning.
Ian, just on the outlook for 2021, as you, I think Jeff mentioned, the margin guidance pretty much in line with what we've seen the last few years out of Engineering Services, which is great in this environment. Wondering what levers you can pull going forward to improve the margins of Engineering Services and maybe tie that question in with some of the digital initiatives that you mentioned on the call and how that might translate into better margins going forward.
Yeah. Thanks for the question. I think the key thing for us as we have now kind of moved from de-risking the business into focus now on growth, particularly focus on organic growth. I think that maintaining margin levels is important and obviously ongoing optimization of cost is important, particularly through the things that we've learned in COVID-19, such as remote working and digital technologies that reduce the amount of people content. We really are focused on channeling our efforts into leveraging from that into organic growth. Beyond this year, that's what we see as one of our key priorities. That isn't to say that, of course, we're not looking at making efficiencies. Of course, we are. Margin expansion is not particularly our core focus.
Okay. You also mentioned that EDPM has a growth focus in the U.S., where I think you'd like to be bigger. Is that a solely organic plan at this point? Or when might you start contemplating some acquisitions tuck in or otherwise to grow in some of the markets that you might be subscale?
Yeah, good question. Well, for sure it's both. The key right now for us is organic growth. It's not just EDPM. We see our business primarily focused at infrastructure in the Southern states, and we have a drive to look to build on that through growth in the Northwest and the Northeast and in California. We have obviously a very strong nuclear environmental management business with the U.S. Department of Energy, and we're seeing really strong growth potential from that. That's obviously all from an organic perspective. We see great kind of potential from federal government investment, particularly the rhetoric around the new administration. Beyond that, we will be putting together towards the second half of this year our capital allocation plan and on our longer-term plan that we'll communicate at that moment.
Our priorities really right now is organic growth, closing the oil and gas, continuing to run off our LSTKs, continuing to perform and continuing to have good cash conversion from the businesses we've got.
Okay. That all makes sense. I'll turn it over and get back in the queue. Thanks, guys.
Thanks, Yuri.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from Chris Murray of ATB Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks. Good morning, folks. Just thinking about 2021, and thank you for the detail on the guidance and the pattern, but just thinking about the CAD 1 billion that you talked about consuming in terms of a backlog for the remaining LSTK project. How should we think about that now that you've made the adjustments and the write downs? How should we think about that through 2021? In terms of both either margin or cash use, and just the pattern of revenues.
Okay. You mean from specifically the sector of the LSTK business, right?
Exactly, yeah.
Yeah
that we kind of have the surprises behind us.
Yeah. Okay. Let me get Jeff to explain about the cash flow. Clearly, from a margin perspective and a risk perspective, I think as we said on the ninth for these three jobs, we're down to three jobs now. We're down to the Trillium, the REM, and Eglinton. We are working through these jobs. We've got a good line of sight into these jobs. They've been affected by COVID. We chose not to take revenues against COVID, even though we feel we've got entitlement. We actually believe these jobs are in good shape for us as we move through this year and obviously move to close them out. Specifically, to the cash profile, I'll just ask Jeff to talk to that as we work through them.
Yeah. I think the first thing I'd say from a revenue perspective, they're broadly equal over the four quarters, slightly more weighted to Q2 and Q3 because it's the summer months and it's easier to deploy more of particularly the construction elements of them in the summer months. A bit of a weighting that way. From a cash flow perspective, as you heard me say, we do expect them to be, at an operating cash flow level, to be a usage of cash in 2021. That's really driven by two things, because overall, of those remaining projects, we do expect them to be as a portfolio, cash flow neutral to positive over their life.
In 2021, the combination, as we talked about in February 9th, of continuing to have a prudent demeanor around COVID-related costs and our ability to claim those back from the clients, which we think we're contractually entitled to, but staying prudent in terms of not recognizing those revenues until we've got better clarity through either commercial negotiations or third-party arbitrations, if that's what's necessary. We'd expect that to continue at least certainly through the first half of this year as well. Putting that much delivery of backlog to work during the year also means that at different points in the year, our cash usage will be running ahead of the actual payment reprofile from the joint ventures or the customers themselves. That obviously works out over time, but sort of a bit of a timing drag on that in 2021 as well.
I think that's what the cash flow will continue to look like.
Okay. Fair enough. Just turning back to some of your commentary around even Q4's Infrastructure Services margin. You did talk a little bit about the fact that Linxon was a big contributor, maybe even a little to Yuri's question about thinking about M&A and growth. How open are you to looking at maybe additional joint ventures? I know you've got a few of them right now as a way to maybe generate some additional growth, but keep the risk more manageable.
Yeah, that's a good question. The Linxon joint venture as a specific kind of business venture has been a real success for us because we've used the best of our project management skills with the ABB and now Hitachi ABB equipment. It offers a total solution for our customers. one plus one is equal three, so to speak. I think one of the key areas that we see joint venturing going forward is in major projects. We really were pleased to see the win on the East West Rail in the U.K., because this is exactly where we want to be positioning our capability to deliver major projects in the future. It's a liability capped contract for us, so it's not an LSTK. We get paid based on an alliance kind of target cost basis.
We work with two other joint ventures companies on that project to offer the customer the best solution, and we win on that basis. I think what's exciting about that kind of arrangement is we're actually seeing that this collaborative risk-capped approach for delivering major infrastructure is being adopted in many other countries and with many other clients and governments. Not least of which is Canada, Australia, some places in the U.S., and across the U.K. What I think is that. By repositioning ourselves into this kind of project, we can fill the space that's been left by exiting the LSTK and use our capability.
Okay, that's interesting. Thank you very much.
Thanks.
Our next question comes from Frederic Bastien of Raymond James. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Ian, just wondering if you're happy with the management team that you have in place to lead the three businesses that make up Engineering Services or do you need to go out and recruit some additional talent?
Yeah. Well, obviously, as you will have seen in the last 18 months as I've been leading the company as CEO, we've developed both talent within the business and brought that up to the leadership team and the team that reports to the leadership team. We've also brought talent in externally at a senior level and talent just below the senior level. For me, particularly in our growth plans going forward, having the best talent to be able to win and deliver work is really important. I don't see it as a static environment. I see this as dynamic. As we build other parts of the company, we'll look to develop our own people and still bring in the best talent.
I'm very happy with the leadership team that we have in place right now, but it's a moving and evolving and growing kind of environment for me.
Okay. Thanks for that input. My second question relates to the CAD 6 million investment that you made into new digital transformation initiative. Would you mind speaking to that investment? More broadly, what are your goals for the company when it comes to developing or acquiring new technologies? Is it a mix of sort of developing that internally and potentially acquiring more businesses through tuck-ins?
The way I see technology is an enabler to deliver projects for our customers in a more efficient and effective way. Actually, when you think about design, you think about that design moving through to build, and you think about the build moving through to the operation of assets, whether they're power assets, nuclear assets, or railways or infrastructure assets. Technology is really the golden thread that runs through the whole process to enable us to deliver successfully. The way we look at this, as SNC-Lavalin, is in marrying that technology to our ability that we've developed over many decades to work with customers to deliver a whole asset. It's slightly different perhaps than you might have heard. For us, it's an enabler.
Where we put the investment is actually in building teams and onboarding tools and developing people to be able to deploy those tools. We're not trying to be and invent new technologies because we believe that the technologies already exist, that they're already there. It's the adoption of them and being very capable in the application of them to benefit our customers, that we see the real market and benefit for us.
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Our next question.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from Benoit Poirier of Desjardins Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Good morning, Ian and Jeff.
Yeah, morning.
Thanks very much. I appreciate the color about the free cash flow outlook for 2021, the fact that SNCL Engineering Services will be largely offset by EPC. If we look beyond 2021, could you provide maybe more color about what we should expect for the whole entity and specifically for service engineering, in terms of free cash flow capabilities beyond 2021?
Yeah. Jeff, why don't I take that one? I think you're absolutely right, Benoit. I think 2021 is a bit of a transition year. There are a couple of things within there that we wouldn't expect necessarily to see going forward in 2022 and beyond. One is, I talked about the day sales outstanding or the benefit we've seen from some of those early payment programs, where some of that will unwind in 2021. The sales tax deferrals we saw in a couple of countries will unwind. I think we've talked previously about that being in the neighborhood of CAD 100 million-CAD 150 million. You would think about that not being there in 2022 and beyond. Therefore, the EBIT conversion percent naturally should be fairly high based on our normal tax rate of low 20%. You'd expect a pretty high EBIT percentage conversion in 2022 going forward.
Obviously, as the LSTK on the project side run down and we get more clarity on claims related to COVID that we think we're entitled to, and how that will play out. Again, when you get into 2022, you'd expect to see that much more normalized. I hope that helps.
Okay. Yeah, that's great color, Jeff. Maybe any thoughts about the seasonality in terms of free cash flow, let's say, not on a quarterly basis, but between first half and second half, in terms of overall expectation for 2021?
Yeah. I think it will be more weighted to the second half than the first half. Obviously, we'll be doing, and as we have been through 2020, highly focused on cash flow. The nature of it is such that we expect it to be more weighted to the second half than the first half.
Okay. That's great. Now, given the big announcement on February 9, with respect to the divestiture of the oil and gas business, how should we be thinking with respect to your remaining mining services business? Just wondering whether it would make sense to divest it and focus on core Engineering Services, now that it's a much smaller portion of your business now.
I mean, currently, we're looking to continue to grow that business as a services business in the Mining and Metals sector. If you think about it, SNC-Lavalin kind of, for a long time, has been more stronger and more weighted into mining than it ever was in oil and gas. It's kind of part of the DNA of the business. You're right. We're very focused on specific clients. We're very focused on specific geographies. It's not a very major component of our engineering services businesses, but it is profitable. Currently we remain supporting that and intend to grow it organically.
Okay. That's great, Ian. Last question for me. When we look at your leverage ratio, you were able to get it toward 2.1x at year-end. As we look through 2021 with EBITDA improvement in light of free cash flow expectation, how should we be thinking about your net recourse debt to EBITDA ratio in 2021, and what you would consider your optimal balance sheet longer term in terms of leverage ratio and the opportunity to eventually deploy capital?
Yeah. I think I'd answer that with two components, Benoit . I think the first is certainly we continue to see with the outlook that we've given to remain well within our covenant ratio metrics throughout the year, as it did in 2020, will likely vary around somewhat, but should be well below any of our thresholds. I think longer term, and we'll come back to this in the second half, as Ian said, when we talk more about our longer term growth strategy and the capital allocation that goes with that. That will include what we see as the optimal capital structure of the business going forward. I think as you've heard us say a number of times, I think we would continue to want to move towards having financial metrics that are consistent with being an investment grade company, for instance, from a balance sheet perspective.
How that fits in with our overall growth strategy and how we think about the deployment of capital, we'll come back to that later in the year for sure.
Okay. That's great. Thanks for the time.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from Michael Tupholme of TD Securities. Please go ahead.
Thanks. My question relates to the 2021 outlook you provided for SNCL Engineering Services. You're calling for low single digit revenue growth this year. Wondering if you can take that one step further and just talk a little bit about the sub-segments and how you expect those to perform in terms of EDPM, nuclear, and Infrastructure Services.
Yeah. Clearly, the low single digit is a reflection of where we are right now. We're still in the pandemic, and it's somewhat difficult to understand exactly when normality will prevail. We would expect that growth will start returning to something a little bit more normal in the second half of this year. We also see that in our core geographies, and our core geographies are Canada, U.S., and the U.K., where almost 75% of our business is currently located, the go-forward business. All of those geographies have a very high commitment from governments to invest in infrastructure. There's a high commitment to invest in certainly nuclear in a different way in each geography. Nuclear new build in the U.K. as well as environmental management, nuclear environmental management in the U.S., and life extension and environmental management in Canada.
Our end markets, in our core geographies, we see pretty solid commitment and pretty strong growth opportunities. I wouldn't pick particularly any difference in how we see those particular segments in terms of the low single digit for this year. What we will do when we come back with our longer term growth plan in the second half of this year, we'll be clear about that and where we see the most growth potential and the sub-segments to those sectors, if you like.
No, I appreciate that. Thank you. Just similarly, in terms of the outlook for 2021, in terms of the margin expectations, I think if we look at 2020, EDPM came in around the 8% level, so sort of toward the bottom end of the range you provided for 2021. Is it reasonable to think about the midpoint of that range and think about expecting some improvement in EDPM in 2021? What would be the factors that would sort of drive that improvement, if that's the case?
It's Jeff here. Maybe I'll take that one. I think I'd point you to, in 2020, EDPM had quite a challenged first quarter from an EBIT percentage perspective. If you looked at quarters two, three, and four, those would be much more representative of what we would consider to be the quarter-on-quarter EBIT percentages and much more in the mid part of the range of the 8%-10%. I think 2020 overall was impacted by that first quarter, which we wouldn't necessarily see repeating this year.
Okay. Thanks for that, Jeff. Just one last one. I didn't see anything in particular mentioned about this in terms of any changes, can you just provide an update on the last remaining mining metallurgy LSTK project? I think it's supposed to be done in Q2, just any update there.
Yeah
whether or not you see any areas of remaining risk there?
No, it's progressing well. It's CAD 75 million, I think, from the end of the year backlog, which we look to close in Q2, the middle of this year. So far, yeah, there's nothing unusual to report about that project. It's going well.
Okay. Thank you.
Our next question comes from Devin Dodge of BMO Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Thanks. I wanted to come back to Infrastructure Services. The margin performance in Q4 was really strong. Nearly 10%. I'm just trying to better understand what's driving that margin performance in Q4 and just generally in 2020, and why the guidance of 5%-7% next year essentially implies some margin compression next year.
Yeah. Infra services has got a few different components to it, which Linxon into the joint venture company with ABB. All our operations and maintenance business is within infra services. Then we've got the services part of it, which really provides services to hydro and power, to the medical industries, and to industrial solutions. In fact, all of those kind of performed very well, and have been very resilient, if not even received good wins through the COVID period because of the very nature of those businesses. For sure, they are performing very well, and as you rightly said, performed particularly well in the last quarter. Just on the specifics of the quarter margin, I'll just ask Jeff to talk to that.
Yeah. It was very strong, and you're right, Devin, we wouldn't expect necessarily to see that on an ongoing basis. It was a combination of a few things. It's a business that has a smaller overhead base, and they were particularly effective at reducing costs that we saw in the quarter. Some of that was COVID related, so that was good to see. Not sure that we would see that carrying on, particularly as hopefully we come out of COVID later through the year. We also saw some good delivery on some of our O&M projects, where we realized better margins on a few of those key projects. Again, that was specifically related to circumstances in 2020. On an ongoing basis, we'd expect those to return to a more normalized level in the 5%-7% range.
Okay. Thanks. That was good color. Maybe just another one for you, Jeff. Continues to be a lot of cash on the balance sheet. I think it was just under CAD 1 billion at year-end. Just, can you provide some color on that cash balance? Is that the right amount, or is there an opportunity to streamline that cash position and maybe put that capital to work in other areas of the business?
Yeah, I think it's a good question. You wouldn't be surprised, our demeanor in 2020 has been around financial flexibility and liquidity, particularly in a COVID-19 environment. I think as we look going forward, though, we see more confidence in terms of being able to maximize the efficiency of our cash on the balance sheet. I'd make a couple of observations. There's a natural level of cash, particularly with the large infrastructure projects that we have, as well as the oil and gas business and the scope and breadth of that I would say our kind of natural cash balance is naturally somewhere between around CAD 600 million-ish, is what we would normally expect because of the way some cash is tied up in joint ventures or is in different parts of the world or is needed for the working capital requirements of things like infrastructure projects.
We do have some level of excess cash. We'll be looking to see, for instance, how we deploy that. In the first quarter here, we have a small debenture bond coming due. At this point, we wouldn't necessarily see retaking that into the market. There's different ways we may look to bring that cash balance down to optimize where we are. The business does have a reasonable level of working capital in terms of cash that it requires. Hopefully that helps.
That was helpful. Thank you very much. I'll turn it over.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from Mark Neville of Scotiabank. Please go ahead.
Hey, good morning, guys. I just want to follow up on that cash flow conversation. I want to make sure I'm sort of understanding all the puts and takes. Jeff, you mentioned, I think, CAD 100 million-CAD 150 million. Was that just tax, or was that sort of the working capital investment for the year?
Yeah, no, it's a combination of working capital, primarily related around day sales outstanding. I think as we noted in the MD&A, and I noted in my script, we were about nine days better. We were down at 64 days in EDPM, for instance. Whereas more normalized, we'd expect to be in the low 70s. Don't get me wrong, we're looking at all opportunities to improve that sustainably over time. If we can find and are working on working capital initiatives to try and release cash from the balance sheet. I think our view is, to be prudent, you'd assume that would return to something that's more normalized.
That kind of accounts for CAD 75 million-CAD 100 million-ish in terms of cash flow benefit in 2020 that you'd expect to unwind in 2021. I think the second element is that we did see, for instance, there was a U.K. VAT deferral program for the middle of 2020 that the government had announced as part of helping businesses around COVID-19 and cash flow. That effectively deferred the payment of that VAT tax out until 2021, largely. We saw a bit of that in the U.S. as well. That's where the kind of combination of those, you get up into the approaching CAD 150 million.
Okay, the CAD 150 is tax and the working cap. It just seems to me that, I guess with sort of neutral operating cash flow, the drag to the project seems quite significant. I wonder if you can maybe I'm off, but maybe you can provide some numbers around sort of what you're expecting of the investment for the projects this year.
Yeah. My observation would be that it is, and our expectation is, it is negative and largely offsetting what we see in engineering services. Obviously, part of that is, at an early stage in the year here, we're continuing to have a prudent demeanor around things, as I said, like our recovery of COVID-19 claims on those projects. As I think the year unfolds, I think we'll get more clarity on that, and then our ability to book the revenue related to those and see the cash coming in will allow us to then assess where we are as we go through the year. I think that's the color I'd provide at this point.
Okay. Maybe just going to leverage this, just so I'm clear. The 2.1x , do you get to sort of exclude all the claims and provisions that you took in Q4 from that calc, or is that actually still included in the EBITDA?
We excluded what we considered to be the one-off items in that calc, which would primarily be the oil and gas fair value adjustment, as well as the adjustments that we made for legacy litigation matters and claims reassessment. What we didn't exclude, because we consider it part of the ongoing operations of the business, is primarily the CAD 90 odd million charge we took on the live projects here in Canada, and then a smaller component that was related to the one remaining resources project.
Okay. All right. I'll turn it over. Thanks.
Okay, thanks.
Our next question comes from Sabahat Khan of RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Great. Thanks, good morning. Just a question on, you highlighted this kind of the new JV model that you're undertaking projects in, and I think you highlighted the one here in the East West Rail project. Just trying to understand, I guess, how would this have been done in the past, I guess, if you are on the design side here? What does this new project structure mean for the risk profile relative to what we would have seen in the past on the EDPM side?
Yeah. Well,
These alliance or target cost or collaborative contracting models, if you want the catchall for all of it. There's various kind of nuances to the theme, but the major difference is the liability is capped from our perspective. Our fee would be at risk, but beyond the fee, we would not have any liabilities for cost overruns or time overruns or any sort of events. Traditional kind of lump sum turnkey contracts, you're liable for any cost overrun, and you've obviously got to claim anything that you think is recoverable from the client. That's why a lot of these things end in litigation. The model is completely different. I think it's becoming pretty much recognized by a lot of governments and a lot of clients that actually, this lowest cost wins LSTK model is not delivering the outcomes that really we're all looking for.
We're looking for jobs to be complete on time. We're looking for them to be more sustainable from an energy and a client impact perspective. We're looking for them to be innovative. This type of model enables all of that. It enables companies like SNC-Lavalin, who have a very large breadth of capability to apply all of these capabilities to the customer for the best outcome. We're seeing a number of them. We see them here in Canada, British Columbia, Ontario. We're seeing contracts come out under this form. The nuclear sector, most contracts are awarded on that basis simply because, in the nuclear sector, the clients don't want to put time and cost pressure into the process because safety is paramount. We see this as a very key growth area for SNC-Lavalin.
We're quite excited at the prospect of being able to pivot from LSTK to this lower risk model.
Okay, great. Then just on the nuclear side, I guess as we kind of come out, hopefully at some point this year from the pandemic, can you maybe talk about the progress of work on your existing projects? Over the course of 2020, did you find continued progress and discussions on the nuclear side, whether it's in the U.S., U.K., or Canada? How are you kind of feeling about that broader market as we head into 2021?
Yeah. It's different in each of our three core geographies. It's slightly different. If you start with the U.S. first, it's really about environmental management. It's about cleaning up nuclear waste and decommissioning power plants. We're seeing the U.S. Department of Energy have a really strong commitment to continuing to invest in that cleanup with some very, very significant contracts, not least of which the Hanford one that we won in 2020, and in fact, an extension to an existing contract in 2020. We'd see that as an important component. In the U.K., obviously we're involved in the new build in Hinkley, and I think it's likely that new build will continue in the U.K. through to Sizewell, and that's a very significant opportunity for us, as well as decommissioning and helping some clients actually keep their power plants running for life extension through engineering contracts.
Canada is all about our CANDU technology and supporting reactors around the world from the CANDU technology, but also the reactor life extension work that we do at Darlington and Bruce. I think, you think about all of those different components and the market that's out there, the potential for growth in our particular sectors within the end markets within nuclear is quite strong.
All right, great. Then on the infrastructure EPC side, obviously you've taken a number of provisions related to some projects where you are having discussions with the client. Can you maybe walk us through what we could expect if there is a recovery or partial recovery, maybe from the accounting side? Would there be a revenue recognition and then the cost and I guess, the full kind of income statement recognition? Will there just be an EBIT or EBITDA flow through? If you can maybe walk us through what it could look like if there is a positive recovery at some point, and maybe any visibility on timelines there over the course of the next year or two.
Well, let me answer half of that and let Jeff come in on the specifics of the revenue margin recognition. I think the first thing I'd say is, you're right. I think we've taken a prudent approach to COVID recovery on all three of the jobs that we have going. Clearly the jobs have been impacted and clearly there's vehicles through the contract for us to claim that loss. The burden of proof is on us. We have to go through a process with our clients, hopefully through negotiation, not litigation, to really pursue those recoveries and pursue those entitlements. It's complex because they're very, very huge, large contracts with lots of kind of moving parts and labor, and the impacts are complex to prove from a productivity perspective.
I wouldn't want to get into a commitment as to when we're going to see those recoveries, but we are in good, positive kind of dialogue with our customers. Jeff, perhaps just on the specific, how you see that.
We would expect, obviously, to book the revenue at the point at which we have resolved those with the client. It is subject because we account for this project on a percentage of completion basis. Effectively, the revenue goes into the total expected revenue on the project overall, the revenue and the cost and the margin that fall out of that are accounted for in that way. Assuming there is a settlement at some point, you wouldn't necessarily see all of that in that particular quarter, but you would see it coming through over the remainder of the life of the project.
Okay, great. Thanks very much for the color.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from Mona Nazir of Laurentian Bank. Please go ahead.
Good morning, and thank you for taking my questions.
Good morning.
Just firstly, in regard to the forecast for SNCL Engineering Services, the low single-digit growth, you did touch on federal stimulus in your core markets, the U.S., Canada, and the U.K. I'm just wondering if the guidance has stimulus factored in or a significant amount, just some color around that?
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's a good comment. I think you'd probably say no, because we're still in the pandemic, and we're still trying to understand what the exit to the pandemic looks like, and we're still trying to understand when that might be in each of those core geographies, and it's somewhat dynamic and somewhat unspecific at this time. For sure, you look at the current commitment for the infrastructure bill in the U.S., that will get passed at some point, and that will be very significant. I would expect that the improvement and the flow-through will probably not happen this year. If it is this year, it's gonna be towards the end of this year. In the U.K. and Canada, there's an ongoing commitment. All the way through COVID, we've seen new contracts and new investment.
Likewise, there's some fairly major projects out there, particularly in Canada, that I don't think we're gonna see the revenues flowing this year, but we are gonna see revenues flowing beyond this year. I think the real impact and the benefit that we're gonna see is probably beyond this year, just to try and give an overview of that question.
Okay, that's great. Just secondly, looking at the pro forma business from a geographic footprint and mix perspective. I do understand that you stated you're working through the capital allocation plan later in the year. I'm just wondering if we could expect a material shift from here. Could the U.S. be a significantly larger percentage of the mix for you going forward? I'm just wondering, given the move to sell oil and gas was in fairly rapid order, could we similarly see a fast trigger pulling if you come upon an acquisition opportunity? Is it really just organic growth story at this point?
For sure, the U.S. is a key focus, undoubtedly. 20% of our business currently comes out of the U.S., where it's 30% and high 20s in the U.K. For sure, with 5,000 people there, we're not at the scale of our peers. We see significant opportunity both in the nuclear and the infrastructure. Yes. I think the very simple answer in the U.S. is yes, you're gonna see organic growth. As far as our inorganic growth plans and where we might apply that capital, we will come back and be a lot clearer about that. It's gonna follow the end markets and the geographies that we see as opportunities right now. The trajectory of the company is not gonna change. It's gonna enhance it.
Okay, that's great. Thank you for that. Just lastly for me, I know you've spoke about investments on the IT side. I'm just wondering, from your perspective, if you think there's been an acceleration for IT to be married or weaved into the offering with work from home environments. Do you feel that customers are having more demands, or is it really capability requirements that you feel are needed, or are competitors offering more forward-looking solutions? I'm just wondering if you could speak a little bit more about the current and potential future IT investments and the drivers as such. Thank you.
Yeah. Well, I think our sector, in the engineering and construction sector, is generally seen as a slow adopter of technology, digital technologies, use of data. I think, obviously, through COVID-19, the whole remote working and the whole kind of thought process of how technology can assist the building process has become a lot more focused, both from the industry itself, but also from what customers are looking for. I see all of that as an opportunity. I see all of that for SNC-Lavalin as an opportunity because we've got the basic abilities, certainly within the Atkins acquisition we did in 2017 and the way that we've fostered that and built upon that within the company. I see this as a space to offer our capabilities, yeah.
Okay, that's it for me. Thank you.
Thank you.
This concludes the question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Denis Jasmin for any closing remarks.
Thank you very much for joining us today. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. Have a beautiful day, everyone. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
Thank you.
This concludes today's conference call. You may disconnect your lines. Thank you for participating and have a pleasant day.