Stella-Jones Inc. (TSX:SJ)
Canada flag Canada · Delayed Price · Currency is CAD
69.33
-0.13 (-0.19%)
Sep 21, 2026, 4:00 PM EST
← View all transcripts

Earnings Call: Q1 2018

May 3, 2018

Operator

Afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. Welcome to Stella-Jones' first quarter 2018 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Following the presentation, we will conduct a question and answer session. Instructions will be provided at that time for you to queue up for questions. If anyone has any difficulties hearing the conference, please press star followed by zero for operator assistance at any time. Before turning the meeting over to management, please be advised that this conference call will contain statements that are forward-looking and subject to a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those anticipated. I would like to remind everyone that this conference call is being recorded on Thursday, May 3rd, 2018. I will now turn the conference over to Brian McManus, President and CEO. Please go ahead, sir.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Thank you. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I am here with Éric Vachon, Chief Financial Officer of Stella-Jones. Thank you for joining us for this discussion of the financial and operating results for the company's first quarter ended March 31st, 2018. Our press release reporting Q1 results was published earlier this morning. It also can be found on our website at www.stella-jones.com and on SEDAR. Let me remind you that all figures expressed on today's call are in Canadian dollars unless otherwise stated. I will begin with a brief overview of the quarter. Our results were in line with our expectations. Our railway tie category continued to face headwinds from short-term pricing pressures, while sales in our utility pole product category increased on replacement programs, and our residential lumber category benefited from an increased pricing environment. Overall revenue amounts to CAD 398.8 million versus CAD 396.9 million in the same period last year.

The contribution from acquisitions was CAD 3.1 million, while a conversion effect from fluctuations in the value of the Canadian dollar had a negative impact of $16.1 million on the value of our U.S. dollar-denominated sales. Excluding these factors, sales increased CAD 14.9 million or 3.8%. Net income for the quarter was CAD 23.1 million, or CAD 0.33 per diluted share, compared to CAD 0.37 per diluted share a year ago. In a moment, Éric will discuss the financial performance of the company in greater detail. I will now address the first quarter results by product category. Railway tie sales reached CAD 146.4 million, down from CAD 158.5 million for the same period last year. Excluding the conversion effect, sales declined CAD 4.9 million or 3.1%.

This variation was primarily as a result of continued pricing pressures in certain regions, combined with lower sales from a Class 1 railroad customer, which commenced the depletion of its inventory as it transitions to a full-service black tie program from a treating services only program. We expect that this transition will negatively impact sales to this customer until the latter part of Q3. Turning to utility poles, sales amounted to CAD 152.9 million, in line with the same period last year. Excluding the contribution from acquisitions and the currency conversion effect, sales increased by approximately CAD 8 million or 5.3%. This growth was driven by higher volume for replacement programs. In the residential lumber category, sales were CAD 50.3 million, a 30.3% growth over the same period last year.

This favorable variance is primarily explained by higher selling prices as a result of lumber cost escalations passed through to customers, while the Prairie Forest Products acquisition, completed in February, contributed CAD 2.4 million. In the industrial products category, sales reached CAD 20.8 million, down from CAD 21.9 million for the same period last year. Excluding the contribution from acquisitions and the currency conversion effect, sales decreased 2.6%, mainly due to the timing of projects related to bridges and timbers. Finally, in our category of logs and lumber, revenue stood at CAD 28.3 million, up from CAD 26.9 million in the first quarter of 2017. This variation reflects higher selling prices due to increased lumber costs. Turning to our network. In recent months, we continued to follow our strategy of continental expansion with two tuck-in acquisitions.

During the quarter, we acquired Prairie Forest Products, which includes a wood-treating facility and a pole peeling facility located in Manitoba, a province where we previously had no operational presence. In addition, following the end of the quarter, we acquired Wood Preservers Incorporated, which manufactures, sells, and distributes marine and foundation piling and treated wood utility poles located in Virginia. These acquisitions further reinforce the reliability of our production network and distribution capabilities. Éric will now provide further details about our first quarter results. Éric?

Éric Vachon
CFO, Stella-Jones

Thank you, Brian. Gross profit amounted to CAD 56.5 million, or 14.2% of sales in the first quarter of 2018, compared with CAD 68.8 million, or 16.1% of sales in the first quarter of 2017. The decrease in absolute dollars is explained in most part by the company supporting the transition of a Class 1 railroad customer from a treating services only program to a full-service black tie program. To accelerate this transition, the company acquired untreated railway ties from this customer, which increased cost of sales once these ties were treated and sold. Moreover, cost of sales was slightly impacted by increasing utility pole fiber costs, which will be mitigated as selling prices will progressively be adjusted over the upcoming months. These cost increases were partially offset by the effect of currency translation.

As we explained last quarter, we expected our margins to be softer in the first half of the year. We anticipate it will progressively improve in the second half. As a result of the reduction in gross profit, operating income stood at CAD 35.5 million, or 8.9% of sales, down from CAD 40.8 million or 10.3% of sales in the first quarter a year ago. Similarly, net income for the first quarter of 2017 was CAD 23.1 million, or CAD 0.33 per diluted share, down from CAD 25.9 million or CAD 0.37 per diluted share in the first quarter of 2017. Reflecting the decrease in net income, cash flow from operating activities before changes in non-cash working capital components and interest and income taxes paid was CAD 45 million for the first three months ended March 31st, 2018, compared with CAD 50.4 million for the same period in 2017.

Cash flow provided by operating activities used CAD 64.6 million in liquidity in the first quarter of 2018 versus an inflow of CAD 7.2 million last year. This variation is primarily explained by normal seasonal working capital requirements in anticipation of increased demand during the peak periods, specifically the second and the third quarters, as well as the timing of certain purchases and the value of inventory acquired to support a Class 1 railroad customer's transition to a full-service black tie program. As a result, in the first quarter, we used our credit facility to finance the Prairie Forest acquisition for CAD 26.5 million and CapEx for CAD 11.5 million. As at March 31st, 2018, Stella-Jones' long-term debt, including the current portion, was CAD 565.4 million versus CAD 455.6 million three months earlier.

The increase mainly reflects higher working capital requirements as per normal seasonal demand, financing required for the acquisition of Prairie Forest, and the effect of local currency translation on U.S. dollar-denominated long-term debt. As a result, Stella-Jones' total debt to EBITDA ratio was 2.41 versus 1.89 three months earlier. Finally, the board of directors of Stella-Jones yesterday declared a quarterly dividend of CAD 0.12 per common share, payable on June 27th, 2018 to shareholders of record at the close of business on June 6th, 2018. I will now turn the call back to Brian for the outlook. Brian?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Thank you, Éric. Our outlook has not changed since last quarter. Based on current market conditions and assuming stable currencies, Stella-Jones' total sales and operating margins are expected to improve progressively in 2018. We expect operating margins to remain softer in the first half of 2018. Over the next 24 months, we are confident that our EBITDA margins will return close to the 15% range on an annualized basis. More specifically for 2018, in the railway tie category, we expect sales to remain stable as compared to 2017, with softer pricing negatively impacting operating margins in the first half of the year. In the utility pole category, following a return to normal demand patterns in 2017, we expect a better sales mix within the product category in 2018. However, these factors will be slightly offset by cost increases for certain wood species and the timing of price adjustments.

In the residential lumber product category, sales are expected to be on the rise as the company benefits from increased demand for new construction and outdoor renovation projects in North America and higher pricing reflecting higher wood cost. In the short term, we will focus on integrating the recent Prairie Forest Products and Wood Preservers Incorporated acquisitions, as well as optimizing operating capacity and minimizing costs throughout the organization. We will also be commissioning additional pole treating capacity in the second quarter, helping to improve both customer service and our operating costs in the U.S. Southeast. Over the long term, the company's strategic vision, focused on continental expansion, remains intact as management believes the fundamentals of each product category will remain strong.

Our vision remains one of solidifying Stella-Jones as a North American leader in the pressure treatment of wood for railway ties and utility poles while diversifying to other product categories that are aligned with the company's established competence. As we have done for over a decade, we will remain committed to our established business while pursuing a disciplined program of acquisitions. This strategy has helped us consistently enhance shareholder value. We are confident we will continue to do so. Éric and I will now be pleased to answer any questions that you may have.

Operator

At this time, if you would like to ask a question, please press star followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speakerphone, please lift the handset before pressing any keys. Your first question comes from the line of Benoit Poirier from Desjardins Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Benoit Poirier
Analyst, Desjardins Capital Markets

Yes. Good afternoon, gentlemen.

Éric Vachon
CFO, Stella-Jones

Good afternoon, Benoit.

Benoit Poirier
Analyst, Desjardins Capital Markets

Yeah. Could you provide some color around your two acquisitions that you've announced in terms of revenue and also margin profile, and what also type of synergies you could achieve from those two?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Certainly. In terms of Prairie Forest Products, as we've shown, the purchase price was approximately CAD 25 million. For 2017, they had sales right around CAD 35 million. And the margin profile, it'll be improved to come close to ours in the coming, call it, next nine months or 12 months. We just have to roll through kind of this season. It's a great fit. It expands geographically our ability to service that market, primarily on the residential lumber side, and as we've stated, it also does some utility poles. It'll play a role in helping streamline some of our deliveries in that area. As for the second acquisition that we completed in April, after the end of the quarter, actually very close to the purchase price and sales of Prairie Forest, except in US dollars.

Purchase price was approximately $25 million, and the sales were approximately $35 million in 2017. This will help us expand our industrial products category, because of their presence in the marine piling. Something that we feel we can continue to grow as the synergies will fit well with our ability to access more whitewood for them. Definitely something positive that we look forward to. Margin profile, fairly similar to ours, actually.

Benoit Poirier
Analyst, Desjardins Capital Markets

Yes.

Okay.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Hopefully that answers all your questions.

Benoit Poirier
Analyst, Desjardins Capital Markets

Yeah. No, that's pretty good color. Could you talk about the potential pent-up demand when we look at the railway ties? We've heard a lot about congestion. Some customers are beefing up their CapEx spending for this year. Could you talk about whether we're going to see some pent-up demand for railway ties in the back half or maybe 2019?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

I think it probably will go more to 2019. I think what we're going to have in 2018, we're kind of seeing a mix right now, Benoit. We have some that have actually taken down a bit their programs. As we talked about just a couple of minutes ago, the move from one of our clients to a black tie program will result in a deferred sale as we're stacking now the whitewood ties for future sales, and they're going to deplete their existing inventory. I feel we will see more activity overall in 2019.

I think there's some puts and takes here and there, but overall for 2018, we feel it's going to be very similar to 2017 for us on the railway tie side.

Benoit Poirier
Analyst, Desjardins Capital Markets

Okay.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Sales-wise.

Benoit Poirier
Analyst, Desjardins Capital Markets

Okay. When we look at M&A prospect, now that you've announced two other, could you talk about whether you still foresee a M&A prospect and how the acquisition of Cox Industries by Koppers has changed or you expect to change the dynamic on the utility poles, Brian?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Kind of two different questions there, Benoit. I'll start with the first one in terms of acquisition opportunities. Clearly our very short-term focus will be integrating the ones that we've recently completed. I would say we still have other opportunities out there that we're in discussions or looking at. We expect there could be other opportunities that develop over, call it, the next 12 months. To the second part of your question in regards to Koppers acquiring Cox, it doesn't change much in our market. It's just really a different owner of those assets and we've competed against the Koppers on the railway tie side for many, many years, and they're a good competitor, and we expect that they'll be the same when it comes to the utility poles.

Benoit Poirier
Analyst, Desjardins Capital Markets

Good. Thank you very much.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Thanks, Benoit.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Walter Spracklen from RBC. Please go ahead.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

Yeah. Thanks very much. Good afternoon, everyone.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Good afternoon, Walter.

Éric Vachon
CFO, Stella-Jones

Good afternoon.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

With regards to the Class 1 rail moving, I think we have a sense of who that might be, but is that essentially gonna mean a much better margin for you once we get through this period of inventory drawdown and then they move into your black tie service? Should we see margin improvement on a similar level of revenue from that customer?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

No, margin percentage-wise generally will be somewhat similar. I think our dollar margin for, call it, time in the cylinder, may be slightly higher, but it will be a similar profile.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

Will you generate higher revenue growth from this customer then, or higher revenue from this customer?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Yes. Yes, we will, because we will be selling a complete railway tie.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

Right. That will, on a similar volume metric, we will effectively see a higher, I guess, unit price achieved in 2019 on a year-over-year basis.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Yes, that's a fair way to look at it. Exactly.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

Presumably that I guess that's where I was getting the higher margin because you're getting a bigger price from that same customer for the same volume, I guess.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Correct. It'll be on a percentage basis, it tends to be slightly a little bit lower, but the overall dollar margin will be slightly higher because it's on a larger number.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

Is there a sense of order of magnitude of this customer compared to your overall book of business? Is this a number 3 customer or number 10 customer or?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

It would be in our top five on the railway tie side.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

That's great. Looking at your residential lumber, you had some good trends there. Is the growing sales kind of connected with your big box customer win, or are you getting traction or deepening relationship elsewhere? A little discussion on that, and particularly what regions you're seeing stronger growth in that residential lumber side would be helpful.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

There's two things driving it. One is definitely the pass-through of the whitewood cost increases that we're seeing, as we've seen in the market, that the price of lumber itself continues to escalate. The other part is increased volumes as well, and that's getting driven both by just increased sales from our big box customer as well as, I would say, increased market share of some of what we refer to as the dealer market.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

Finally, on utility poles, you're having a nice volume lift here. I'm trying to get a sense, obviously, utilities can be a little bit more lumpy when they come in with purchases. Is this something that you think we should build in our model as a sustainable kind of run rate trend? Or should we view the volume lift this year as kind of specific to a certain level of customer activity that might be different or lower next year?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

I wish I had that clear a crystal ball. I would say we remain sort of confident that the demand from most of our customers will continue to increase in the medium term as they continue to, many of them, not all of course, but you see a lot of utility pole replacement programs coming in place. We're kind of comfortable guiding with a middle single-digit growth on the utility pole side.

Walter Spracklin
Analyst, RBC

Okay, fair enough. That's all my questions. Thanks very much.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Thanks, Mark.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Mona Nazir from Laurentian Bank. Please go ahead.

Mona Nazir
Analyst, Laurentian Bank

Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Hi, Mona.

Mona Nazir
Analyst, Laurentian Bank

Hi. Sorry. My first question just has to do with the customer shift to the black tie model. I'm just wondering what kind of an impact was that on the top line, if it was meaningful or quantifiable. Also, you mentioned lower railcar availability. Not sure if you have those numbers offhand or you could provide.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

I'd prefer not to, Mona.

Mona Nazir
Analyst, Laurentian Bank

Okay.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

The railcar is actually something that will be pushed further into Q2. I think railcar and trucking issues right now, not only our company, but a lot of industries are struggling with right now, and we certainly hope to see it improve as the year goes on.

Mona Nazir
Analyst, Laurentian Bank

Okay, perfect. That's a perfect lead-in to my next question. A U.S. peer for you on the tie and pole side now reported earlier, and we saw a 20% decline there on the revenue side, and margins continue to be weak. Now, I don't want you necessarily to discuss their results, but it's just surprising.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Thank you.

Mona Nazir
Analyst, Laurentian Bank

It's just surprising given the drastic variance between your results and their results, and especially given the similar end markets. I'm just wondering if you could take this opportunity to shed some greater light on potential industry issues and how you are able to curtail or reduce the risk to you or on the flip side, just competitive advantages that you have, whether it be your network or anything else.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

That's a difficult question to answer, Mona. I think the reality is, in some ways, we're fortunate with our overall customer base, and I will also give a lot of credit to both our operational and sales team for navigating these last 12-18 months. I think it's a combination of a number of factors, but it's difficult for me to speak about a competitor. I think they would have to answer some of those questions. We're doing the best we can to deliver the best value we can to our customers.

Mona Nazir
Analyst, Laurentian Bank

Okay. I'm debating. Okay, speaking to investors, there's a lot of questions surrounding long-term growth for the company. As you've largely consolidated the tie side and the pole market continues to shrink, and you're consolidating it. You have a history of calculated, prudent strategy, and you've guided to kind of GDP-like organic growth, but M&A remains a significant part of the strategy. Knowing what you know, is it feasible that we could expect 15%-20% top-line growth in the coming years? Or what kind of sales figure could you conceivably add via M&A over the next few years?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

I'd be comfortable in saying there's several hundred million CAD of available M&A for the next couple of years, certainly closer to our key product categories. The question mark remains: Do we expand as we've done within Canada to a greater extent in the U.S. on the residential lumber side? I think our near-term focus, as we've been saying on a regular basis, will certainly be to our railway ties and utility poles, primarily on the utility pole side. And then, we've also seen that we've done some growth on our industrial products with the recent acquisition in Virginia. That's expanded our piling market on that front as well.

Mona Nazir
Analyst, Laurentian Bank

Okay. That's very helpful. Thank you.

Éric Vachon
CFO, Stella-Jones

Thank you, Mona.

Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Michael Tupholme from TD Securities. Please go ahead.

Michael Tupholme
Analyst, TD Securities

Thanks. Good afternoon.

Éric Vachon
CFO, Stella-Jones

Hey, Michael.

Hi, Michael.

Michael Tupholme
Analyst, TD Securities

Brian, the overall outlook for the railway ties segment, you continue to call for relatively stable tie revenues year-over-year, full year 2018 versus 2017. That's unchanged, and you've had that outlook for a little while now, notwithstanding the fact that I guess you highlighted a few things this quarter which had a bit of a negative impact or a drag on results, and it sounds like some of these things are going to continue. Specifically the transition issue you highlighted and the railcar availability. Did you anticipate some of those factors when you originally gave the guidance, or are there some things that have offset those on the positive side that have allowed you to keep the overall guidance for the ties business unchanged?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

No, we anticipated most of it. I think the part we didn't anticipate was certainly some railcar issues that is for the most part beyond our control, but the transition of one of our Class 1 customers to a black tie program was definitely part of our forecast or expectations.

Michael Tupholme
Analyst, TD Securities

Okay. You mentioned that the sort of negative drag while you're in this transition should continue to affect you into the third quarter, but come the fourth quarter, then we should see a step up in revenue as that transition issue is complete and you fully move to the black tie model?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

We would expect that. I think some of it will be dependent upon, as we often see in the fourth quarter, how much the various Class 1 customers are taking for their 2019 program, because a lot of the fourth quarter sales often result as a desire to get ties out to the field and ready for the program in the following year. That often is a bit of a question mark. I think we would expect to see certainly some uplift in the fourth quarter.

Michael Tupholme
Analyst, TD Securities

Okay. What are you seeing in the non-Class 1 market as far as the industry inventory position in that market, which had been an excess inventory position for some time. That was part of the issue that led to some of the pricing pressures. What are you seeing there, and any comment on that?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

I think we're seeing it improve substantially in some regions, and in others we're still a bit in an over inventory position, but it continues to improve, and I think as we get more into the season of where we'll see a lot more replacements happening or activity, I think it'll right itself as we move through the first half of the year.

Michael Tupholme
Analyst, TD Securities

Just from a pricing perspective, and if you look at raw tie prices, it seems as though they have firmed up and actually look to be up on a year-over-year basis now just in the last little while. At what point would you expect that to hopefully flow through to the pricing that you get on the finished tie side and begin to get some better pricing for your products?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Because of just the lag effect, that will start to flow through towards the back end of Q2 and then into the back half of the year. Yeah, we are starting to see white tie prices start to increase again.

Michael Tupholme
Analyst, TD Securities

Okay, perfect. Just lastly, with respect to the Wood Preservers acquisition, what would be the split for that acquisition in terms of the revenues between pilings and utility poles?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Most of their sales would be around what we would put into our industrial products category. Call it close to 90%.

Michael Tupholme
Analyst, TD Securities

Okay. All right. Thank you very much.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Brian Pyle from Acumen. Please go ahead.

Brian Pyle
Analyst, Acumen

Good morning.

Éric Vachon
CFO, Stella-Jones

Hi, Brian.

Hey, Brian.

Brian Pyle
Analyst, Acumen

I just wanted to sort of follow up a little bit about the quarter, just sort of understand whether there was sort of any benefit from a tough winter or if some of the demand that would be created from the harsh winter might be a positive driver in Q2 forward. Just maybe give some color on the weather impact on your business.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

A bit surprisingly, actually, really the weather impact it generally has, I would say our product category that tends to be hit the hardest on a slow start to the spring, if you want to say, is definitely revolves around our residential lumber, yet surprisingly was up quite a bit. We're hoping that certainly continues as we hope to start to see spring weather or summer weather in most parts of the country take hold. I would say neutral for the quarter, Brian. Probably even, like I said, we're a little surprised on some of the demand we saw on the consumer lumber side.

Brian Pyle
Analyst, Acumen

Okay. Then again, just looking at the programs that you are seeing with the Utility Poles, again, most of that relates to just the lifespan of poles and less so to sort of weather impact over the last year or so.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Correct. You mean sort of impact from special storms or something like that?

Brian Pyle
Analyst, Acumen

Yeah, special storms. Again, we had a pretty harsh winter out here. I know the East did as well. Just curious whether any of those Utility Pole programs would be cranking up more because of weather, or if it is just really finally these guys are looking at the fact that they get a four-year inventory they need to do something with.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

I am hoping it is the latter. I think we will see as we progress through the year. For the most part, it has been pretty regular maintenance programs. Some of the more special projects, actually some that we expected that would occur in Q1 have just been deferred from a delivery standpoint into Q2. We expect some uplift from some additional projects outside of just what I would call as regular demand growth.

Brian Pyle
Analyst, Acumen

Okay, great. On the tie side, we've been hearing through some of our clients, things like that some of the margin pressure that you're seeing maybe hang on longer term, that the railways sort of have squeezed everywhere else in terms of where they can on pricing, and they're pushing back a little bit on suppliers like yourselves. Maybe just comment on that for us.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

I think that started 18 months ago. I would comment that it's not new, but I think as the market tightens up from an inventory standpoint, it's going to come to a point where we'll see an overall, I believe, uplift in the market.

Brian Pyle
Analyst, Acumen

Okay. Thanks for the color. Appreciate it.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

All right. Thanks, Brian.

Operator

If there are any additional questions at this time, please press star followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. Your next question comes from the line of Mark Neville from Scotiabank. Please go ahead.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

Hi, guys.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Hi, Mark.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

I just want to make sure I'm understanding some of the comments on pricing. I think last quarter you said you were seeing sequential pricing improvements in ties. Again, it sounds like maybe second half you'll benefit as well as your costs are going up. You're also calling out softer pricing in the tie business. I'm not sure if I'm just misunderstanding or if it's different markets or what exactly is happening there.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Well, I think our outlook that we talked about last quarter was really we indicated that we expected the margins to be softer in the first half of the year.

Picking up in the back half. That's really what we're referring to in terms of the pricing. There is, call it a bit of a mixed bag of pricing in different regions. We're seeing more pressures more in the southeast and some improvements in the north. That's something that will hopefully continue to improve as the year carries on. I'm not sure if I answered the question or.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

Yeah. There hasn't really been any incremental change in the past couple of months, I guess, to that outlook. It's just regional.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

No, not at all.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

Okay. I guess on the margin guidance itself, I think last quarter you said maybe 150-200 basis points, second half better than the first half. Is that still roughly what you're thinking?

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Yeah, I think it's fair at this point. It might actually be a little more spread through the year, meaning that we might see a little bit better improvement in Q2 than we expected. That kind of 150-200 might go over the three quarters as opposed to more on the back end. We'll see.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

Yeah. Okay. Sorry, just one on the poles. I think you said mid-single digit growth. Is that just volumes? Again, I think you're expecting improved pricing.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Yeah, I'm sorry. That's a really good question, Mark. I was referring to volumes.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

Okay. All right.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Yeah. Pricing increases would help boost that a bit more.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

Okay. Sorry, I missed the comment on the 15% EBITDA margin. I think that was prepared remarks. You mentioned something about that. I just didn't catch exactly what you said.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Oh, we expect that within the next 24 months that we should be around that target.

Mark Neville
Analyst, Scotiabank

Okay. All right. Thanks a lot.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Thanks.

Operator

There are no further questions at this time. Mr. McManus, I turn the call back over to you.

Brian McManus
President and CEO, Stella-Jones

Great. Well, I want to thank everyone for joining us on this call, and we look forward to speaking with you again on our next quarterly call. Have a great afternoon.

Operator

This concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect.