Good morning, everyone, and warm welcome to Wienerberger's Q1 2023 results update. Thank you for taking the time to join us today. My name is Therese Jandér, and I'm pleased to be hosting this call from the headquarters in Vienna. I'm joined by our CFO, Dagmar Steinert, and a special welcome also to our CEO, Heimo Scheuch, who is calling in today from Hungary. We will begin with a brief presentation of the key developments and the financials for the period, and afterwards we will open the line for questions. With that, I will hand over to Mr. Scheuch.
Thank you, Therese, and a warm welcome also from my side. You will wonder why I speak from Hungary. As you recall, we explained to you that the roofing is a very major tension point for our future development, and as you're well aware, we have been working on two new factories for concrete roof tiles, and one is in Hungary, one is in the southeast of London. Both of them are now operational. The one in England is already fully on the market, and the one here in Hungary is about to go on stream. We are glad to say that in a record time of more or less one year, we have put two new factories up in this market, and we grow our exposure to this very important segment of ours, the roofing segment in Europe.
That is why I'm here today with our Hungarian management. Let's go now to our set of results for quarter three. Ladies and gentlemen, if you look at our results, operating EBITDA was EUR 202 million. EBITDA in the third quarter comes in more or less or roughly on the level of 2023, so in line with last year's performance. A slight margin expansion when you compare to last year, and the revenue is pretty much on the same level as last year as well. All of this is a very strong performance if you look at the underlying market. Why? Because we have seen, as we have told you, in the new residential housing segment, no major developments as far as uptake is concerned.
On the contrary, if we move first of all to North America, the North American market has suffered considerably in the segment of new residential housing, one and two-family houses especially. Let's start for a change with Canada, Ontario, the Toronto market, down compared to the previous year, 2024. This year was more than 30%. So we had to digest quite a significant decline in activity in this very important market. That's the major market of Canada anyway, Ontario. You have seen here a strong decline in the new residential housing market. The U.S. as such has also suffered due to a lot of reasons. The mortgage rates are still pretty high. You have here also the instability, volatility, politically speaking. I don't have to expand on that. Everybody follows it very clearly and in detail.
This has obviously also an impact on the new residential housing market in the US, and therefore we have a decline of about 10% in this market as well to digest when it comes to our activities. Keep in mind that this North American operation is the most exposed one to new residential housing market as it comes to Wienerberger, because this is where we still have a majority of our business that is exposed to new residential housing. If we move now more to Europe, we have here, I would say, a situation where we see in the U.K. and in Ireland different market development. We have seen that especially now after the summer that the U.K. is also dropping in activity rate. That is due to mortgage rates have not come down as everybody has expected. There is also some instability in the marketplace.
Here with about when we compare running rates, about 9% down in new residential housing market when we talk about September, October in this period of the year. We have seen no pickup, on the contrary, a decline in activity. Also in Ireland, a slight decline in this new residential housing market. However, and this is now important because this is a major difference. If you look at the U.K. Irish operations of Wienerberger, they have a majority of its exposure already in the roofing and in the piping business. Renovation and infrastructure plays an important role, and therefore this business has performed overall better because here stability in turnover and in profitability.
We have not suffered so much when it comes to the profitability of the business in this region due to this new business that we have, a business that is far more oriented to renovation and to infrastructure. A very important point to mention here to the respect of the U.K. and Ireland. On the continent as such, we've seen a mixed picture. All of us have expected a better running rate when it comes to new residential housing in all of the European markets. This has not happened. The only market actually that performed according to our expectations is the Netherlands. The rest of Europe, Western Europe especially, was down. There's no sort of uptick in the market as we speak. There are, however, some encouraging signs, if I may say so, in Germany and France, because the permits are up in these two countries.
We can expect, hopefully, into the next year, a little better development in new residential housing. Renovation has supported the strong roofing performance in the region. There is a lot of activity, as I may say, on the roof maintenance. This has helped our business there. Infrastructures have been more or less stable spending. Here, a trend that we have basically built on at the beginning of the year. If you look now to Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe has been also a market where we have not seen any expansion of new residential housing. I would say a rather stable, subdued market in a lot of these Eastern Europe economies. The only country where we have seen a little uptick is the one I am currently in, in Hungary. This is due to political reasons. Next year we have Hungarian elections.
The Hungarian government has launched a special initiative to give sort of better mortgage rates to be first-time home builders and buyers. All in all, when you look at Wienerberger's performance in these geographies, and we have added some charts in the presentation, I do not need to go into the details, but you see actually three things. First of all, that the mortgage rates have not come down as we originally expected them to do so in order to stimulate new residential housing. That is the first very important point. The second one is that the new residential housing markets, nearly in all of the markets, except, as I mentioned, the Dutch market and the Hungarian, are down. There is no uptick in these markets. We were confronted with markets that are below the 2024 levels.
Thirdly, which is also very positive, Wienerberger in ceramics and pipes outperformed the underlying market due to our focus on innovation, very strong focus on our customers, and therefore we were able to outperform the underlying market. I think this is the nutshell of the current environment that we are in. I do not see any major changes, by the way, for the rest of the year. After the third quarter, into October, November, December, we will see the same trend. This declining environment will continue for the rest of the year. This is, I think, from my perspective, the major sort of underlying developments. If we now move a little bit on from the macro and the sort of performance-oriented one to some of the numbers that Dagmar will elaborate a little later.
From a revenue perspective, you see here that we are more or less a little bit up by 4% compared to last year to about EUR 3.5 billion. The EBITDA is slightly down from last year. This is obviously due to the fact that we have a lesser contribution from the new residential housing segment and also some cost pressure when it comes to labor costs and energy costs. Here, Dagmar will elaborate a little bit more in detail. On the profit after tax side and the earnings per share side, we have a strong increase due to the fact that obviously there is no impact on some of the balance sheet issues that we had due to the sale of the Russian business last year. This year obviously is a normalized year. Here we have a strong uptick in these two aspects.
If we now move on a little bit more to the migration, as I call it, from Wienerberger's perspective, you see here that over the years, and I explained this already a few times, but you see it especially in these tough market environments that Wienerberger is operating in, how important it is and it was to migrate the business from a purely new residential housing business to now a much stronger, resilient business based on new-built infrastructure and especially renovation. I think this has shown clearly that from a strategic path, we are on the right way forward. We will continue to do so. I think the current environment offers us opportunities. Let's move a little bit on in this external growth field. We have done several acquisitions.
I mean, when we look at Wienerberger over the last 10 years, it's by far more than 41 acquisitions that we did. All of them are very strongly value-enhancing. We have been very disciplined, first of all, with the purchase price, with the integration, and the synergies. When we take the biggest one that we did, Terreal, last year, we are fully on track with respect to synergies. All the synergies that we have originally planned for are coming in actually a little bit better already. The market as such, the underlying, is obviously weaker. I don't have to explain that. I did it already at the introduction. Here, in this difficult market environment, from a pricing perspective and synergy perspective, we are doing better as we originally planned. Here we see the strong operational leverage that we have when we do such acquisitions.
They are from the first day onwards value-enhancing. When you look at Terreal, I would say what the difference or what the change is in prediction is that we see that the full contribution in EBITDA due to the fact that the markets are not yet picking up, will be probably a year more that we gain this EUR 150 million EBITDA contribution. We have put here the chart clearly in line for you that we expect this contribution a year later. However, as I said, from a synergy and cost perspective, we have already achieved all of it. Let's look a little bit at what we have done so far in this year 2025.
Again, here, an interesting set of development because we have focused on water management clearly when it comes to all sorts of innovative features like creating a scalable platform for capturing growth when it comes to water quality, to measure the volume of water, and to help water companies in managing their water systems. That is Wioniq, a strongly growing business when it comes to IT-based and artificial intelligence-based solutions for water management. We have done a very important step in Ireland in order to consolidate further the market when it comes to infrastructure, drainage, roofline, and cable induction systems as a consolidation in this market. Fully effective there as well. We have bought 100% of our GSCI business. That is a framing business for solar panels. That is not solar panels as such.
It's a framing operation where we have now 100%, which is growing fast because here we have this integrated solution for roofs. We grow not only in France, but especially also outside France very quickly. When we look, strategically speaking, infrastructure and renovation are the key drivers also this year in this market circumstances where new residential housing is under pressure. We will focus on this more. When we talk about infrastructure, it's the expansion of our piping operations, water management especially. Here we see a high degree of growth potentially in all of our markets that we are active in. Keep in mind that Wienerberger is now with its operations in the north of Europe, now clear number one. We grow our business strongly in the U.K. and Ireland, and we are also very strongly growing in the Benelux, especially in the Netherlands.
The next focus areas will be the eastern part of Europe where we want to grow this business, and obviously also in Western Europe where we see still potential for further growth. Here, organic and inorganic growth is on the list for Wienerberger in the years to come. Let's move then a little bit to the renovation market. The renovation market is for Wienerberger, especially the roof market. Here with the acquisition of Terreal and now the framing business for solar panels, we see here a strong potential for further growth. We will focus on accessories and parts that the roof needs on the roof and under the roof. We have here the necessary platform to do so.
We have seen that especially in situations where the markets get a little tougher, we have now strong market shares in order to have pricing power on one side, but also to push innovation and solutions through. These are two especially very important markets for growth for Wienerberger. If I may, before I hand over to Dagmar, say a general word with respect to acquisitions as such. When we look at the current market environment in North America and in Europe, it offers unique opportunities for Wienerberger for attractive growth. Why? Because a lot of small and mid-sized companies, family-owned businesses, in such difficult moments, they are not only driven by the macroeconomic development, but also the regulatory development, especially in Europe with all the new regulations coming its way.
Here we have a strong potential for further growth in order to expand our operations and to deepen the value creation when we talk about solution businesses on the roof and in the infrastructure field, but also in new residential housing. I think here we are ideally positioned as Wienerberger to grow. We have shown that we are a world-class operator when we integrate all these sort of operations very quickly, very efficiently on the platform side when it comes to systems like the whole back office, but on the front office as well due to our strong sales approach in the different geographies that we are active in. A good base for further growth at Wienerberger. Dagmar, I may hand over to you to elaborate a little bit more on the financials. Thank you.
Yeah, thank you very much, Heimo, and a warm welcome from my side here from Vienna as well. I will go now a little bit more into details about our financials. Just to sum it up a little bit, our first nine months result shows a really solid performance in this weak new-built market, as Heimo explained. Our group revenues increased to EUR 3.5 billion, and operating EBITDA came in at EUR 584 million. Our margin amounts to 16.6%. Let's now look a little bit more into detail, and let's have a deeper look at the revenue and operating EBITDA bridge. Our revenue development, we increased our sales by 4%, and that is driven, as you can see, by scope. That is mainly due to our Terreal acquisition, where we have a strong roofing performance, which pays off in the renovation volume increase. Organically, we grew by 1%.
What we lost as well on the currency side via translation. If we look at the operating EBITDA, it is slightly below a previous year. Organically, we missed our previous year's performance and showed there - 4%. That is due to still ongoing cost inflation and that our pricing overall for the whole group is more or less in par with previous year. Therefore, we did not manage so far to cover our cost inflation. On the currency side, it is - 1% or EUR 5 million. Our M&A activities gave us EUR 13 million additional EBITDA. Overall, our profitability remains robust, and it is overall demonstrating the flexibility of our operations. If we now have a look at our segments, starting with Western Europe, there, as you can see, our revenues increased by 8%, and that is a result of strong renovation activities.
Roofing is there the main driver, and Belgium, Netherlands, as well as France remain there the top performers. The new residential housing market, of course, is, as already explained, really weak, but we see a meaningful growth in Netherlands there. The U.K. market is difficult for us, especially in new-built, but as we are strong in renovation and piping activities there, we outperform that market as well. Looking at the operating EBITDA, it's up 15%. Of course, part of that is a result of our acquisitions of scope, but we continued to show a solid performance. We have a solid cost management, and therefore, due to higher utilization, we managed to increase our margin. With that, I would like to come to our development in Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe, our revenue grew by 2%, and that was mainly supported by slightly higher clay block volumes.
On the earnings side, operating EBITDA, it's down by -7%, but we are still showing a margin of 18.1%. In Eastern Europe, we have very high burdens on cost inflation, especially on the energy side. There, it's mainly gas. There we increased; there we had to face a very deep increase of prices. Markets are difficult in Eastern Europe as well. In the new residential housing market, only Hungary shows significant growth, and that's due to government support because there they support fixed interest rates for first-time house buyers. Let's now turn to the development in North America. North America at the moment is quite a difficult market. Of course, what you see in these pictures as well is a negative impact from currency translation. Our external revenues came down by -8%, and that is due to weaker brick demand and, yeah, the difficult markets.
Our piping volumes improved, but we faced there due to lower raw material prices as well, lower prices on our side. Operating EBITDA came in at EUR 106 million, and we still show a very healthy margin of 19%. North America remains for us a really profitable and strategically important region, and we are well positioned for recovery once new residential housing market returns. In this challenging environment, we have set up a new program, Fit for Growth. That program, Fit for Growth, will deliver structural savings across all regions. What are we doing with that? We are focusing on processes. We want to simplify processes. We want to reduce overhead. We want to become a much more agile organization, and we want to be as fast as possible towards our customers. Part of that program as well is the topic of optimizing production.
We target 15 million-20 million annual savings. That definitely is a run rate. With that, of course, we want to ensure that we are best in class, serving our customers, and have a really lean organization. I already said, mentioned in our half-year call, and of course, it still remains as it is. We face very high cost inflation, especially on the gas prices. Therefore, I would like to give you a little bit deeper insight how it works. As you know, we are fixing prices for our future volumes of gas, which we need. In the past, we benefited from that quite a lot. In the years 2024 and 2025, for instance, we are buying gas for prices below market price. Anyhow, the prices we are paying today in 2025 are far above the levels we used to pay in the last year.
Giving you a little bit of an outlook for the year 2026, due to the development of the market prices for gas, prices compared with the year 2025 came down. We still, of course, fixed a certain amount, but there in the next year, 2026, as far as we are able to see it as of today, we will not benefit as much as we did in this year and the last years. I hope that will give you a better understanding of how energy costs work within our group. With that, let me turn to our free cash flow. Our free cash flow came in at EUR 155 million, and that is reflecting a solid, yeah, cash generation for the first nine months.
As you might see, we are a little bit more investing in our working capital compared to this previous year, but that's just a seasonal thing because, as you know, we are always building up inventory during the year, especially during the first nine months. Maintenance CapEx is on the level of previous year, and there's no bigger change in lease payments as well. Having said that, I would like to move over to our net debt development. Our net debt at the end of September amounts to EUR 1.9 billion. The leverage of that is 2.5. By the year end, 2024, we showed a number of 2.3. As you can see within the development, we have our free cash flow of EUR 155 million. Our gross CapEx and M&A amounts to EUR 105 million.
Of course, we paid dividend, and we did some share buybacks, which amount to EUR 135 million. I can assure you, we have an ongoing disciplined CapEx and cash management, and we will keep the leverage stable. I'm sure that we won't increase last year's number. With that, before we come to the outlook, I would just like to sum up the, for me, most important topics of our performance for the first nine months. Looking at our macroeconomic environment, we are still facing high mortgage rates. On the other hand, new residential housing market is developing not as stable or positive as we originally expected, except the Netherlands and Hungarian market. I would like to point out with our performance with these nine months, we as Wienerberger outperformed the ceramic market and the pipe market regarding the market environment.
With that, I would like to hand over again to Heimo.
Thank you, Dagmar. I think you made it very clear, and I can only sort of add to that that in this complex, volatile, and really fast-changing environment, Wienerberger has proven that our not only strategy, mid and long term, but our sort of proactive management style, focusing on costs and being very quick when it comes to adjustments and efficiency improvements have proven right.
Some of you will say, "Why didn't you start earlier to talk about a change in the outlook?" Because at half-year, we said, "Listen, from a perspective that we see summer months, July, August are always weak months and don't give a lot of indications." When we look at the performance of quarter three and the September, especially, we were hopeful that actually the markets as such were picking slightly up or developing in a better way. However, we have unfortunately seen that especially in North America and the U.K. were driving in the other direction. Again, we had here, obviously, to experience not only further declines, but a much weaker environment in new residential housing than we originally anticipated.
Obviously, when we gave the full-year guidance, we said at the beginning of the year under two assumptions, that interest rates would come down and that the new residential housing market will slightly improve, especially in the second half of 2025, and show positive trends. Those did not materialize. On the contrary, I think the strong message that we can send to you is we had to suffer a completely different environment than we originally planned for. Under these circumstances, I think this performance that we show, that we are actually better performing than last year in an even lower market environment, shows that we really work hard on our things that we can influence. As Dagmar has shown, we have already implemented the Fit for Growth project again in order to make us even more efficient in more of the businesses.
We have proven that from a pricing point of view, we are very disciplined when it comes to pricing, and obviously also in digesting a very significant cost increase when it comes to wages, especially labor costs and on the energy side. All of this coming our way, we had to digest this year. I think it has to be seen under these circumstances that we have a very solid, strong performance. The renovation markets are the only markets that remain stable as we have foreseen it. The infrastructure markets took a slight hit also due to the budgeting constraints that especially European countries imposed due to the shift more into defense budgets and to defense spending away from infrastructure. These are things that we have to look at also from a perspective of current development.
Let's then summarize everything as the performance goes for the rest of the year. Some of you will ask Dagmar and myself already in a couple of minutes, "Are you really sure you will achieve the 750?" Yes, we will. The impact of FX, as Dagmar has explained in detail, is also an important one which we need to consider. Like-for-like basis, I think the 750 is the number that we will achieve. We are working hard. It means also for us a good and very strong quarter four, where we work on right now, and where, as I said, all the measures that we implement ourselves and which we can influence are playing out in our favor. The rest we have to take as they come.
This is, I think, a very important and clear message that Wienerberger does everything in order to improve its business in this, I would call it, significant slowdown in new residential housing around our markets. However, if I think, and very important also, I think that what Dagmar says, and she's keeping really a strict discipline in the company on the net debt position here. You have seen how disciplined we are on the CapEx and the spending side. At the year end, we will be in the range of 2.2-2.3 EBITDA to net debt. Here, again, strong performance when it comes to the financials of the company and the balance sheet discipline. Let's not keep out of mind also the midterm and our development.
Some of you will say, "Do you still have the EUR 1.2 billion as a midterm target in mind?" Yes, of course. Why? Because obviously the company has this potential to grow to this number, provided that some criteria play out. We have put here, I think, four that are very clear to determine on this slide. First of all, further interest rates have to happen. You have seen how high actually the mortgage rates are. We need to keep more an eye not on the interest rates in general, but especially mortgage rates and the mortgage policies in the different geographies that we are operating in, because it gives a signal of affordability for people to buy into the new residential housing market or not. Then something which is very interesting to monitor for us is this European Social Housing Plan that might kick in.
There's a lot of discussions. We have a meeting at the month's end again in Brussels with the commission and the commission about this. This could also be a very important part for the new residential housing market for us in the not-too-distant future. Obviously, potential peace in Ukraine will boost the whole region of Eastern Europe, and therefore we hope for that and for the people, especially in Ukraine. Also, the U.S. market recovery, because the potential and the demand level is substantial also in these geographies, in Canada and the U.S. However, as I said earlier, the mortgage rates need to come down, and a little bit more political stability should be also in the U.S. in order to stimulate the new residential housing market. Under these conditions, I think we are very well positioned in order to achieve this number.
Wienerberger, from an efficiency perspective, cost-based perspective, and also the very important industrial base that we have now, is a very strong one that we can work on and continue. I think what you should take away from this call, it is more than a quarter call, because we gave you some update on strategy also. The importance of the migration of this business, Wienerberger, from new residential to a much broader business and the resilient business proves right, gives the group a very strong direction when it comes to stability in cash flows and the margins, but also a growth base for the future. I think the U.K. and Ireland is a very, very good example if you compare the two, the U.K. and Ireland, to North America. North America, we are still very exposed to new residential housing.
That's why we'll take a hit there as far as profitability is concerned. When we look at our performance compared to the competitors that are more into new residential housing in the U.K., especially, it's a much stronger one. It's a much more resilient one, and margin-wise, it's a much better one because the business is already very balanced when it comes to infrastructure and renovation. I would like to close on these statements strategically, and thank you very much for your attention. Dagmar and myself, as always, will take your questions.
Thank you so much. We will now begin the Q&A session. If you would like to ask a question, you may click on the raise your hand button. If you're connected by a phone, please press star key 9 to enter the queue on your telephone keypad. With star key six, you can unmute yourself.
The first question comes from the line from Yassine Touahri from On Field Investment Research. Please ask your questions.
Thank you very much for taking my questions. I think I would have two questions. First, I think you had cost inflation of 4%-5% in 2025. You're expecting, I understand, a bit more energy inflation in 2026. Should we expect more of a mid-single-digit cost inflation next year, or should we expect something similar to what we've seen in 2025? That would be my first question. My second question is that we've seen so far that prices have been very broadly stable. I think you've not been able to offset this cost inflation, and all the benefits from the savings that you've been implementing have been absorbed by this cost inflation. How do you think about next year? Have you already started to announce price increase?
Do you see your competitor announcing price increase in an environment where the volume is a bit more muted than you were initially expecting? Do you believe that any price increase that has been announced could stick? It would be great to get a sense of the scenario that we've seen in 2025, where a lot of your efforts are absorbed by your cost inflation, could be reproduced or not next year.
I thank you very much, by the way, for these very important questions. I will leave, if I may, Dagmar, to you on the cost inflation side, and we'll focus on the price side to start with. I think we've shown a great discipline in pricing throughout the group this year. You are absolutely right. In such an environment, especially the new-built sector, it's difficult to increase prices.
However, we were able to do so in some geographies, so it cannot be sort of said with respect to the whole group right now. To 2026, it is too early to give here a statement. However, as always, we start in November working on the markets, working with our customers to prepare them. You will see a more detailed picture, I would say, in March of next year if they stick or not. We will certainly do something in the pricing. It is not going to be huge steps, but I would say sufficient steps. This is what we are going to work on for 2026. As I say, it is a difficult market environment when we talk about new residential housing.
I do not expect here big jumps, but we always work on this very hard in order to improve renovation, and infrastructure will be a little different. I hand over to Dagmar.
Yeah. Regarding cost inflation, yes, we face cost inflation between 4%-4.5% for the running year. Yes, we will see some cost inflation, of course, next year as well. I do not expect it to be at the level of the cost inflation 2025. Regarding the energy, what I tried to explain regarding our gas price, what we are paying in the year 2026, that will not be above market price, but as we benefited from energy fixing in the running year, we will face some kind of inflation regarding the energy prices in the year 2026.
Just on inflation, the 4%-4.5% that you're seeing in 2025, is it mostly a mix of labor costs and energy costs? When you look at 2026, what would be the difference? You would see less labor cost inflation and energy inflation, something similar. Overall, you would expect something which is less than the 4%-4.5% that we're seeing in 2025. Is that the right way to look at it?
That's the right way to look at it, yes.
It's too early for you to give an idea if it's closer to 2% or 3% or 4%.
Yeah, that's too early because we are still in the phase of preparing everything. Of course, there are price movements on the cost side as well. It will be below the inflation of the running year, but it's too early, far too early to give you a decent number.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you for your questions. We have the next question from the line from Cedar Ekblom. Please go ahead and ask your questions.
Thanks. Good morning. I just had a question on that cost point again. Just to confirm that 4-4.5% is across all buckets of costs, so energy, labor, etc. Could you give us a little bit of color on what the actual portion was for your fixed cost buckets? That is the first question. Just to get a little bit of differentiation there. Can you just remind us, there are a couple of cost-cutting programs that are now in the business, and we have the new announcement today. Can you just remind us how to think about efficiency gains into next year?
Is it just the 15 million-20 million, or is there anything also coming from other programs that have been in place in this business for some time? Thank you.
Thank you, Cedar, for the very spot-on questions. Let me say something on the cost-saving side and the program. The Fit for Growth is obviously, as Dagmar explained, a new program that will be added onto the existing ones. You remember that we said that the existing ones have come to an end and have proven to be very effective in the business. They will obviously produce some additional input also next year because they are running these programs and they're not finished yet, as you correctly pointed out. These will be to be added on, and Dagmar will give, by all due means and respect, a number at the beginning of next year.
I think if you bear with us a little bit, I think we are putting together budgets right now, and in these volatile times, it's not easy. We have also indicated to you that we would like to give you a much more detailed outlook and overview of the business early next year in a capital markets day. I think if you can sort of be patient with us on this subject to give you here a clear update. To answer the questions, the 15-20 will be the new program running rate as we speak from next year onwards, and some inflow comes also from the existing program setup. For the cost structure and the fixed cost, I hand over to Dagmar, please.
Yeah, our cost structure is mainly dominated by personal expenses.
They account for roughly above 30% of our overall costs, and our energy costs are 10% of our overall costs. These two, yeah, portions dominate, of course, our cost inflation. All the rest, if it is like raw material, if it is rent, if it is consultants, IT costs, whatsoever, of course, there we face cost inflation as well. On the other hand, if we have a very disciplined way to approach that, we manage to keep it low. Therefore, I would like to reduce for you our main cost drivers regarding inflation just to energy and personnel expenses.
That is really helpful. What I am trying to understand is, can you give us a bit of color on what the sort of personnel expense inflation is?
Because what I'm trying to break out is cost inflation on items that are within your control relative to cost inflation on the energy side of things, which obviously you can do your hedging, but to some extent, that's much more a factor that you can't control. Could you give us a number for personnel cost inflation if the overall cost is 4%-4.5%?
The cost inflation regarding personnel expenses in the running year in 2025 is roughly for the group overall at 5%. It will be below 5% in 2026.
Thank you. That's helpful. No more questions from me.
Seda, keep in mind that we had higher cost inflation, obviously, in Eastern Europe also this running year. You remember when we told you that there is pressure in the labor market and especially in Eastern Europe, strong increases on labor and the collective bargaining agreement.
This is, I think, what Dagmar was referring to. Yeah.
Thank you. We now have a question from the line by now, the last question from Julian Radlinger. Please ask your questions.
Yeah, thank you very much, guys. A couple of ones left for me. First of all, the implied Q4 guidance means that EBITDA in Q4 could actually be up year on year despite all the headwinds you have called out. If that is the outcome, I am just wondering what would that be driven by? Is that volume? Is that cost management? In what scenario would EBITDA be up in the fourth quarter? Secondly, your margins actually expanded in Western Europe in Q3 on a year-on-year basis. Is that a clean result?
Is that just higher capacity utilization like you wrote in the presentation, or is there any kind of one-off effects in there that we should be aware of? Maybe a very quick last one. How much of your energy costs are now fixed for 2026? How much visibility at this point do you have? I know it is usually quite a lot on a 12-month forward basis. Thank you.
Dagmar, may I hand over to you to do this? Or if you want me, then you say.
No, no, that is fine. I do it. I will start with the energy. There we fixed roughly overall for the whole group between 50%-60% of the volume. There is still a lot of room for movement. Your question regarding our Q3 results, if there are any major one-offs?
No, there are not any major one-offs included in our Q3 results. It is a result of our, yeah, strong performance in renovation and outperforming the market environment. Of course, regarding our cost discipline, things are starting to pay off. If we look at our adjusted full-year outlook for the running year, if we deliver EUR 750 million operating EBITDA, that, of course, it is mathematic. It is very easy. It means that we have to reach in the fourth quarter of the running year something above EUR 160 million EBITDA. That, of course, is above previous year. I mean, yes, at the moment, we are overall in our pricing more or less stable on the previous year's level. As we told you, we see markets where we a little outperform even on the pricing side.
The markets, we have our initiatives, the running ones, the Fit for Growth where we benefit from, and therefore we are confident to deliver.
Okay. Thank you very much.
There are no more virtual hands at this time. I would like to turn the conference back over to Therese Jandér for any closing remarks.
Thank you. I would like to state firstly that you should save the date for our next Capital Markets Day, which we have scheduled now for the 24th of February next year. Just wanted to add that to the conversation, and we will get you more information when it is a little bit closer. By this, I would like to thank you all for joining us today and for all your questions. We truly appreciate your engagement.
Therefore, we also hope to see you again for our next results call, which is on the 18th of February. Until then, take care and goodbye from all of us here at Wienerberger.
May I just add something, Therese, in the name of Dagmar and myself? We all wish you a happy ending towards the year because with some of you, we won't meet personally. Enjoy this season and all the best in these very volatile times and exciting times. I think we gave you a good outlook for Wienerberger as far as our markets are concerned and be assured that Dagmar and myself will have our hands full for the rest of the year, as she said. All the best and see you soon.
Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now over. You may now disconnect your lines. Goodbye.