Okay. Good morning, everybody. Appreciate you all being punctual and promptly here on time. Well done. There's still a bit of the crowd upstairs coming in, but my name's Jack Cassel. I'm a Senior Vice President and the Head of Listings for the Western U.S. here at Nasdaq, and it's my great pleasure to welcome you all. We're very excited to be hosting you all here for our 51st Annual Nasdaq London Investor Conference, of course, in partnership with our good friends at Morgan Stanley. This year, we're very excited. Obviously, a little tricky in the market yesterday, but very bullish on the momentum heading into 2025. We have over 500 investment professionals, and for us at Nasdaq, this is really a cornerstone event.
We don't do many of these, but this has been, again, our 51st annual because of the quality of investors and you all here joining us today. So with that, I am going to quickly move on so we can keep things on track. Gaia Benitez, Head of International Sales, come on up.
Morning, everyone. My name's Gaia Benitez. I look after international sales at Morgan Stanley, based here in London, and it is an honor to have you with us today. As you see, this is 51 years, but I think for Morgan Stanley and Nasdaq, it's been a 22-year partnership. They have invited their key U.S. corporates to connect with our top clients across the U.K. and all of continental Europe over the next couple of days. It's been a privilege to work with Jack, Bob, and the entire Nasdaq team, and we continue to find ways in which we can partner with them globally, both in Asia and potentially even the Middle East. This particular conference has grown to become the largest U.S. corporate conference of U.S. corporates in Europe now across the street. It is very timely given these markets, this period of U.S.
exceptionalism, and we're honored to host these 57 corporates over the next couple of days with 550 investors across Europe. We hope you find all the fireside chats useful, productive, and please also join us at the lunch session where our specialist sales on technology, Sam Crouch, will be hosting best ideas. On behalf of Nasdaq and Morgan Stanley, we hope you have a fantastic conference, and thank you for the partnership. With that, we'll go to our first session.
Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Michael Infante. I'm an equity analyst here at Morgan Stanley covering fintech. I'm very pleased to have Don McGuire, ADP's Chief Financial Officer, here with us to kick off the conference. So Don, maybe perhaps we start with a quick state of the union on ADP and in particular what you're most excited about in the coming years.
Sure, Michael. But first, thank you very much for the invitation. Thank you for the opportunity to speak, and thanks to all of you who have braved the dark and dreary weather this morning to get here for an 8:00 A.M. start. So thank you. So Michael, we have so much to be excited about at ADP right now, and we've just had a fantastic year. I'll go through some of the highlights, but we celebrated our 75th year this year, so became 75 years old. We also had the pleasure of celebrating our 50th year of increasing dividends, so we became dividend kings, which is a very select group of companies, as everyone knows. So we're very proud of that. We've also had some great things happen on the product side and on the market side. So we did our biggest acquisition ever.
In the middle of October, we acquired a company called Workforce Software for $1.2 billion, and we'll talk about that, I think, a little bit later and how that solution fits into our broader strategy in the enterprise space. We also launched Lyric, which is the renamed HCM product, human capital management product, mostly for the international and the enterprise space, domestic U.S. space. And most recently, just in the last couple of weeks, we announced a partnership with Fiserv, where we are marrying our small business product, small business payroll product, with their business management product and their Cash Flow Central product. So very, very exciting past year and more to come.
Perfect. I think one of the biggest questions we often get from investors is just the correlation between what's happening in the broader macro and employment backdrop with ADP generally. You're clearly exposed across customer sizes, both small, middle, and large. How do you sort of think about that exposure and the go-forward growth of those segments in particular?
Yeah, I think it's important to start with just the resiliency of the labor market, particularly in the U.S., but also, I think, globally, even, as I say, even on the continent, if you will, where unemployment rates have typically been a little bit higher than those in the U.S., but the U.S. market has continued to be incredibly resilient. You saw the BLS job report last week at 227. You saw our report a little bit earlier, which was also positive, and unemployment ticked up to 4.2%, which is still very, very low unemployment, and if you think about that across the decades, those rates are rates that we've seen; these rates now for quite some time. Those are rates that were with us mostly in the 50s, so it's been very, very strong, so we look at that, and then we extrapolate that a little bit.
Unemployment rates on the continent, I know there's some noise right now, certainly in a couple of the larger countries, some around the manufacturing sector in particular, particularly if you build cars, and that, of course, risks having some trickle-on effects, but still the environment is very, very strong. So one of the advantages that ADP has as a company is that we are very different than most of our competition, I would say all of our competition. Not only do we serve all the segments in the large U.S. market, the small, the medium, and the large enterprise market, we also serve the international market. So we have a footprint that is unmatched by our competition.
In that portfolio approach, we do have the opportunity if something's underperforming, something's overperforming somewhere else, so we do very much benefit from the portfolio more broadly, and that's, I think, very, very positive for us. If I break those segments down, we've been incredibly, particularly strong in the down market, the small business market in the U.S. over the last number of years. We've increased the number of units that we serve by a substantial amount over our next largest competitor, so we're doing very well there, and new business formations continue to be quite strong, and our retention rates continue to be very good in that space.
The mid-market, that's an area where we certainly have more public sector, or sorry, more publicly traded company competition, but there's still lots of opportunity for growth in that area, and we continue to grow and continue to improve our balance of trade. If we look in the up market, back to the reference I made earlier to our acquisition of Workforce Software and Lyric, our HCM product, we are now excited about the opportunity to re-engage and re-accelerate, if you will, inside the enterprise space and the multinational space in a different way than we have. We've been successful there, particularly with international payroll, but now we can add the time and attendance capability and the HR capability. Of course, we haven't talked about PEO yet. I think we'll come on to PEO later, but we think the PEO is also a very exciting area for us.
Perfect. That's helpful. Maybe just on the competitive front, how would you say your market share has evolved over the last five to seven years? I think, again, there's this conception in the market that if you sort of look at some of the payroll software players on a pure revenue growth basis relative to ADP, it would imply that they're gaining share. But I think if you look at the underlying data and sort of how relative share has evolved, particularly with some of the regional players, as well as if you just look at your own P&L statement, right, it wouldn't imply that there has been really any impact, and I would argue that you've actually gained in relative strength. So how would you sort of bucket that for us?
Yeah, so we have gained a little. We continue to gain share. If you look at, particularly in the SBS segment, where I mentioned earlier, our share gains there have been pretty dramatic, but we have continued to gain share. More generally, if we go back to 2012, we've almost doubled our revenue since 2012. So we're now sitting at roughly $20 billion against just about $11 billion back then. So you're right that there's been lots of rhetoric and lots of chatter in the marketplace that other people were eating our lunch and taking our business away from us, but that's obviously not the case because we continue to grow. And I think we've continued to be more steady in our growth. We certainly have a much larger base. So when we grow 5%, it's a whole lot different than other people growing 5%.
And what we have seen over the last 12-18 months in particular is some of the competition that we refer to as the P's, their growth rates, their revenue growth rates have come down pretty precipitously compared to ours, which has held fairly steady. And we attribute that to some of the strength we have with our relationships with CPAs, banks, our strength in the mid-market, and certainly we're going to see more opportunity in the enterprise space as we go forward.
Perfect. I want to dig into a few of your individual businesses, but before we do that, perhaps we start with international since we're here in London. I know it's a place that's relatively close to your heart. How do we sort of think about some of your key priorities internationally, some of the competitive distinctions between the international market and the U.S. market, and how you think about international as a growth driver over the medium run?
Yeah, so we do believe that there's a big opportunity here in international, and I did have the pleasure of moving here from Toronto in 2007, and I've kind of been a nomad ever since. I haven't made it back to Canada, but I'm still out there somewhere. But the opportunity in international is pretty large. And we, as I said earlier, we are differentiated from our competition in that we do offer solutions in over 140 countries. We do that with our own product and our own people in over 40 countries, and then we have a partnership for the long tail of companies who may be in, I'll pick a country, Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan, where we don't have physical presence, but we have a partner who can help us deliver the services.
We have in the larger clients, so if you think about some of the folks who are here at this conference this week, we have a GlobalView product that really serves the above 1,000 employees in a country. And then if you get down to the sales team or the warehouse that someone has in a small country, we have something called Celergo, which really serves those small populations, and we put them all together and combine them in a dashboard so that the client has one experience with the payroll, whether irrespective of the platform they're on. And all that is built on, a lot of that is built on the expertise that we've built in these countries domestically.
The reason that we're, one of the reasons we're able to be as successful as we are in France or Germany is that, or here in the U.K., is that we have strong domestic offers, and we can build our international offers or multi-country offers on top of the expertise that we have in that space. That last mile of payroll is very important, and it's hard to achieve. There seems to be a view of some software providers that you can drop the software off at the door, but they're not really contemplating what you have to do to get to the Spanish Social Security people when you hire somebody quickly or let them go, or what you have to do to move money in certain countries, et cetera. It's more than just having good software and tech.
You have to have that, but of course, then you need to have the ability to understand the markets and do that last mile of the payroll.
Perfect. Maybe transitioning to the PEO segment, can you maybe just explain for us, just given this is a very U.S.-centric concept, what exactly a PEO is? And then if you sort of think about the guide that you sort of gave at the 2021 Investor Day for 10%-12% growth, about 7%-8% of that was driven by worksite employee growth. We're obviously operating at a level a touch below that today. How do you sort of think about the right level of growth for that business that the management team is happy with?
All right. So maybe I'll start by grounding the group. If you're not familiar with how the PEO, which stands for Professional Employer Organization, works, it's really a co-employment model where ADP or the PEO actually takes responsibility for the employees, the administration of those employees, health and safety, and benefits, and that's a very important aspect of the PEO. And that allows the employer, and these are mostly smaller to mid-sized companies, it allows the employer to go focus on whatever they do, whether they're in the tech world, the legal world, the software, light manufacturing world. It allows them to go focus on those aspects of their business, and they come to ADP to provide the PEO services.
One of the things that employers of that size are looking for is they're trying to hire the best talent in the marketplace, and it's very difficult for those employers to offer Fortune 500-type benefits if they have to go try to secure them on their own. They don't have the buying power to do so. So one of the big attributes of the PEO business is that we are able to go do group buys of these benefits and make them available to these smaller employers at reasonable costs or more attractive costs than they could achieve on their own. So that's really the underlying model for the PEO. Back in the Investor Day we did in 2021, we were at that time, the PEO business had been growing faster than our Employer Services business, and we were very bullish.
We continue to be very bullish on the underlying value proposition of the offer. But what's changed a little bit, and we've been through a lot, I mean, we had the 2021 Investor Day, and COVID was kind of just ending, and the inflation hadn't really hit yet, et cetera. So there's been lots of moving parts from when we gave that guidance. But what has changed a little is the pays per control. So the people that we pay in the PEO, we call them worksite employees, and pays per control is the number of worksite employees we have an individual client or an individual client payroll. That was always a very significant piece of the overall growth. The hiring started to slow. So coming out of the pandemic, hiring spiked. If you remember the Great Resignation, seems a long time ago, but it isn't really that long ago.
When we came out of the pandemic, companies were having a difficult time hiring, and the first thing they did was they came to people like us, the PEO, who also do the recruitment, and our revenue growth was 17%, 18% in the early quarters coming out of the pandemic. Since then, things have slowed, and they've slowed to be a little bit less than what we've seen historically. So we can't really control the pays-per-control growth. We can't control the number of employees our clients hire, but what we can control is our bookings growth. So we are very, very focused on selling and accelerating our sales and accelerating our bookings in that space.
The last couple of quarters have shown to be positive and getting us back on track, still a little bit below where we were pre-pandemic, pre-2021, if you will, but still looking positive, and we're optimistic that we're going to see good growth there.
Perfect. Maybe just on that bookings inflection that you've seen of late, is there anything that you've done in terms of either re-incentivizing the sales force or tweaking some of the sales strategy to induce some of that bookings momentum? And obviously, what we coin as selling season towards the end of the year, where people elect some of their benefits for the following year, is there any early results that you can share just in terms of how you might be tracking on that front?
Yeah, I think it's often just down to execution and sales. And perhaps we got a little bit, I'll say, lazy. When we came out of the pandemic and we saw the great growth, there was an awful lot of growth from our existing clients. And I think the motivation or the need to go chase new logos and whatnot maybe got off track a little bit. So I think in the last couple of quarters, for sure, we've made sure that people are heads down and incredibly focused on winning new logos and converting people into the PEO offer. Because we have roughly 900,000 small businesses on our run product, which is the name of our low-end payroll product, we can identify certain aspects of those clients as they get bigger.
We can see they don't have Medicare because they don't, or any sort of benefit scheme because they don't have any exchanges happening with benefit carriers. We can see them getting a little bit bigger. And so we can mine our base and identify prospects to move over to the PEO model, which is much more valuable for us. And that channel actually is about 50% of the new sales, the new bookings that we put into the PEO. So being able to look at our overall book of business and identifying those opportunities to move them over. And so we've been very focused on that as well as going out and winning new logos. But we are very optimistic about the PEO. We have about 737,000, I think, at the end of the last quarter, average worksite employees. The current market in the U.S.
is about five million, so give or take, we're at about 15% of the current share. But we do think the market is closer to 20-25 million potential employees. So we do think it's a very lucrative place to stay focused.
Perfect. Maybe transitioning to Employer Services. As I sort of think about the revenue bridge there, I think one of the most telling signs of whether or not a business is being successful is are they able to take price without any impact on churn? And you've sort of been operating at this level where you haven't seen any churn inflection, even though you have been anticipating it for quite some time. You're still taking price towards the upper end of your historical range. Is that fair to assume? And how sort of persistent do you think that dynamic might be, and what sort of competitive reactions are you seeing in the market?
Yeah. So we're always focused on the long-term value of the client. There's not a, you know, we're not really worried about, we are worried about next quarter, but we know that the clients who stay with us for an average of 12 years are more important than hiking the prices and turning people off our value proposition. So we're very, very focused on making sure that the value prop is intact and taking price where we think it's appropriate and when we think it's appropriate. Our retention rates, as you said earlier, have been very high. They've continued to increase. As a matter of fact, they're at record highs across most of our businesses.
So we have, on several calls, and we did it on last earnings call as well, we have said that we're expecting our retention rates to come down a little bit, just given that we're at such high rates today, so hard to go higher, and certainly still expecting perhaps a little bit of normalization in the small business market with out of business, et cetera, but so far, it's been holding very well, but back on the price, we have had in the last couple of years the opportunity to raise price closer to the top end of the range at about 150 basis points, and we've been able to do that because inflation gave us the permission to do that, and we have a good value proposition. Our net promoter scores are in good shape.
Our clients are happy, and as a result, retention continues to be very solid. That's always important to us and dictates how much price we think we can and should take. We may be the biggest in the market, but we have lots of good competitors, and we have to watch and make sure that we're doing what's prudent. This year, we've said that we'll take closer to 100 basis points, and so we expect to do that. Even that's higher than the 50 basis points that we've taken historically. Still a little bit higher than historically, but I think if we look at the inflation environment, et cetera, I think 100 basis points is a more realistic place to be. I think we can do that and still maintain the retention rates that we have.
Great. Maybe transitioning to Workforce Software, just given how meaningful the acquisition was for y'all, maybe just walk through the strategic rationale and how you're anticipating embedding some of the time and attendance capabilities with ADP Lyric to sort of attack the global enterprise space.
Yeah. So I mentioned earlier that we've been incredibly strong in the down market in the U.S. and the mid-market in the U.S. In the enterprise space, we've been a little bit weaker than we would like to have been, and we have spent some time making sure that we're ready to go back to market. If you think about what large enterprise companies, multinational companies need, they need HR, they need payroll, and they need time. If I think about our international business and just can illustrate some of the opportunity we have here, about 40% of the people we pay every payday, so give or take 15 million people get paid every payday outside of the United States by ADP, yet only 15% of our revenue comes from outside of the United States.
Part of the reason for that is that we don't have the depth of offers. We don't have as much time and attendance. We don't have as much HR. Both Workforce Software and Lyric are going to give us that extra product, if you will, to sell into our existing client base and also attract new clients to ADP. We think that's going to help us. Workforce Software specifically has been around for 15-20 years, and they're very capable. Of course, we did our due diligence, and we looked at some of our big customers, customers we already have who happen to use them. One of my, when we do acquisitions, one of the things I like to look to is who are the current customers.
When you see that some of the current customers are also your customers and you know the grief they take you through when they try to make sure your product works and your security and all those good things, you know they've done the same to other people. So it gives you more comfort just from the get-go, even before you start doing the detailed due diligence and going through the code, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a good start point. So that company, I think, has done very well. I think the reason it will have the opportunity to do better with ADP is that we have, give or take, 10,000 salespeople. The organization we acquired has 600 people in total.
And so even though they've had a great mousetrap and great capability, they've really struggled with the ability to grow their sales force, grow their distribution, which is a very expensive endeavor. With us, really, it's that we're going to plug and play the product. We do have some time to work on the integration. Workforce Software was already working with some of our clients, as I mentioned, but the expectations change once everything's under the same roof. So now that we own the product, there's going to be an expectation that integration is even better than it has been to date. And then we get to Lyric and we say, okay, so we need to get that, we need that HR piece. So you put the HR piece, and Lyric, by the way, is for those of you who have been following us, we've talked about NextGen HCM.
We had a code name internally, which was Lifion, which wasn't really ever meant to be the product name. So we've just rebranded and called it Lyric, and we think it's ready to go. We have a great number of live clients today, and we've got a great backlog. We're getting lots of traction. We launched in Las Vegas at the HR Tech Show, and we've been doing very well since. Lyric, Workforce Software, and our payroll capability differentiate us, and we think we're going to differentiate ourselves and re-accelerate and get back into the enterprise space and have more of an offer in the international space.
A lot of new product innovation. I just wanted to ask on potential synergies associated with Workforce Software. They have about 1,000 clients in over 100 countries. Any sort of rough framing as to how many of those 1,000 clients may be ADP customers today and what you think the potential synergies could be?
Yeah, there's a number that are ADP clients today. And because Workforce Software focuses mostly on clients over 1,000, they're really in the enterprise space themselves. So we have some overlap, but I think the really interesting part is we now have the opportunity. There's less overlap than more. So there's a lot of opportunities for us to go source or secure the payroll or HR from the clients that we don't have. So we do think that we do have synergies there. And I think the biggest synergies, though, are really on that distribution side. How do we take their great product and make sure we can get it out into the market and have it adopted by more and more?
Perfect. I wanted to spend some time on the small business segment, particularly with the partnership that you announced with Fiserv in the small business space. Can we just spend a couple of minutes talking about what exactly is involved in the relationship there and what the potential impact you think could be for ADP?
Sure. We think it's going to be a great partnership. It's going to be good for both of us, for Fiserv and ourselves. Fiserv has a small business management software linked to their point of sale called Clover. And we are going to embed our payroll product into that software so that the small merchant, the restaurant owner, et cetera, can work with one system. They can do their payroll in their management software that Fiserv has already deployed. So we have that opportunity to sell more of our payroll into that channel. At the same time, our salespeople will be able to refer opportunities to Fiserv and back to us. Fiserv will be able to refer people back to us for the payroll. There's also a product called Cash Flow Central, which helps these clients, Fiserv's clients, manage their payables and receivables.
Certainly, we're going to have the opportunity to get our existing clients who aren't using Clover today to adopt that product and just make the value proposition and the offer more interesting. I often get this question and have had this question over the last several years about why we don't do more in the office of the CFO and go buy somebody else. And those things were very, very expensive, and they continue to be very, very expensive. I think this is a great way for us to stay close to what we do in the payroll HCM business and at the same time leverage the capability of Fiserv on the payment side.
Makes a ton of sense. Maybe just on AI, how do you think about measuring the ROI there? I know it's still fairly early, but you sort of called out some of the areas like call summarization and virtual knowledge assistance that can be helpful there. Where are you in the AI journey so far, and how are you thinking about the return that you're seeing in early stages?
Yeah, it is still early stages. I think that's important. We are moving at different speeds in different parts of the organization, but call summarization and the ability for customer service reps not to have to key in notes and take notes on a call or on an interaction in a case, et cetera, because the call summarization is happening for them. It's being prepared, and the agents love it, and you can see that just in the adoption, but we're still in early stages, if you will, of the deployment of that. And that's an exciting area. We have millions of interactions, either calls or cases, et cetera, with our clients. And so the ability to look at these en masse and really mine what's happening, that's a game changer. AI has brought that. You can't really do that manually when you try to go through these things.
So that's been a great game changer for us. And the way you see productivity there is number of calls per client, the time spent on calls, et cetera, et cetera. So we are seeing productivity gains there. We have two other areas just at high level. We are seeing a great adoption of some of these sales tools, being able to look for opportunities in the marketplace and then have those opportunities prioritized based on someone opening a new factory, going to a new country, being spun off, acquiring. So there are some great things that Gen AI is bringing to us in the sales area, as well as real-time coaching. So we now have in-your-ear coaching. It used to be your manager listening on the headphone saying, "Say this, say this." Well, now that's happening real time.
Say this because the system, the AI, has heard these questions before. And if you answer this way, you're likely to keep the conversation going and likely to win the deal. And it's early days, but we are seeing measurable differences in wins versus when those tools are not used. And then, of course, the third area, the more general area, is in the development area. We're developing product, using, making, we have something called ADP Assist, just making things easier for customers to use, as well as using copilots and whatnot to develop more quickly. So three general areas. Back to, is it going to make a big difference in the P&L tomorrow? No. Is it going to take a little bit of time? Are we going to see benefits from it as we go forward? Yes. We're not trying to be an AI company.
We're trying to use tools that other people have developed and adopt those tools and use them as well as we can. So we're not spending a ton of money on it, but I do think we're going to see good returns over the next few years.
Perfect. I think that's a great place to conclude. Don, thanks for joining us this morning.
Thank you. Thank you. Okay.
Okay. The lights are there.
Good. I think we're live. Well, welcome back, everybody. I'm Joe Moore. Very happy to have with us today Giel Rutten, the CEO of Amkor. Giel, thanks for being here again. I think you're the second year at least that I'm aware of at this conference. And so I appreciate you coming. Can you just talk in general about the company's priorities? You know, the last couple of years, you've seen a pretty big transformation around some of the new packaging technologies. Can you just talk about where you're focused around R&D, where you're focused strategically for Amkor?
Yes. Thanks, Joe. Well, let me start for the people in the room. I mean, Amkor is a manufacturing service company. We offer assembly and test services for the semiconductor industry. We're one of the leaders in the industry. We have a strong global footprint, and our strategy is based on four pillars. Basically, technology leadership. Secondly, geographic diversity. And third is a strong focus on the semiconductor industry distinct growth drivers. So with respect to priorities for the company and R&D priorities, the way that we work is we engage with lead customers in the industry, and we work on innovative new products in the individual market segments. So in communication, Joe, our priorities are centered around introducing new products when it comes to the next generation of AI-enabled smartphones. And that means a higher memory density, higher interconnect density at the apps processors.
And that means a next generation package technology. Introducing these technologies takes quite a bit of effort and time, but we expect that the next wave of smartphones will be AI-enabled smartphones. Now, that's one specific area. And of course, the lead customers in that area are not specifically the lead customers in other areas. If we take the compute segment, Joe, we work closely with the leaders in the compute area. AI is important there. We hold a strong position with the leaders in GPUs for AI, enabling AI in the data centers. So that's a strong business for us. We invest in that, and we expect that innovation is driven very much around that team. 2.5D or TSMC introduces CoWoS. 2.5D for Amkor is a strong innovation area, and we are ramping up.
I think we tripled our capacity last year. We're introducing the next generation interposer technologies into the market this year, and so we expect that that roadmap will drive significant innovation, but also significant potential business for a company like Amkor. So that's a second important area, compute. The third one is automotive. The automotive industry, specifically here in Europe, is a little bit going through a difficult time at the moment. We also see that from the business volume, but we believe that innovation in the automotive industry will continue to be executed. For Amkor, there are two areas that are important in automotive. One is power management and specifically power modules. We had an announcement on the collaboration and our Portugal factory with the leader in power. That's a semiconductor company here in Europe, and we are also investing significantly in next generation ADAS processors in the car.
And we see more and more advanced technology entering into the car at this point in time. And last but not least, Amkor is focusing very much on wearable electronics. The drivers there are very much miniaturization, and we have a whole portfolio of System in Package where more and more electronics are going into a smaller footprint and wearable electronics that can be audio devices. It can be watches. It can be medical devices. But we expect that to continue and to drive further growth. So these are the four areas. In each of these areas, the company sets priorities for innovation. The critical thing for Amkor is we work with the leaders in a co-development stage, bringing technology to the market.
Great. Well, maybe we could walk through each of those kind of priorities, maybe starting with the overview comment that you made about geographic diversification. You talked about, I guess, a little more than a year ago, your facility in Arizona. And you don't usually think of the U.S. as being a place where there's a lot of semiconductor packaging. But can you talk about the Arizona initiative, what that means in the broader context of geopolitics, the relationship with TSMC, things like that?
Yes. I mean, for Amkor, venturing out with a manufacturing facility in the U.S. is, of course, a big commitment. On the other hand, we get significant support in the U.S. from the U.S. government. And the way that we strategize that facility is that we work closely with critical partners in that supply chain. I mean, you mentioned TSMC is one, and we recently announced the cooperation with TSMC on technology to ensure that we have a seamless manufacturing footprint in Asia as well as in the U.S. And that makes it easier for key customers being served by TSMC and by Amkor to manufacture in the U.S. That's important. We also work with lead customers in the U.S. to define the roadmap, what might.