Good afternoon and welcome to Arthur J. Gallagher & Company's quarterly investor meeting with management. Participants have been placed on a listen-only mode. Your lines will be open for questions following the presentation. Today's call is being recorded. If you have any objections, you may disconnect at this time. Some of the comments made during this investor meeting, including answers given in response to questions, may constitute forward-looking statements within the meaning of the securities laws. The company does not assume any obligation to update information or forward-looking statements provided on this call. These forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially. Please refer to the information concerning forward-looking statements and risk factor sections contained in the company's most recent 10-K and 10-Q filings for more details on such risks and uncertainties.
In addition, for reconciliations of non-GAAP measures discussed on this call, as well as other information regarding these measures, please refer to the earnings release and other materials in the investor relations section of the company's website. It is now my pleasure to introduce Ray Iardella, Vice President of Investor Relations at Arthur J. Gallagher & Co. Mr. Iardella, you may begin.
Thanks, Paul, and good afternoon, everyone. This is Ray Iardella, Head of Investor Relations at Arthur J. Gallagher & Co. I want to welcome everyone to our second quarter 2025 investor meeting. During this quarter's meeting, we plan to touch on a number of topics through a fireside chat format with our Chairman and CEO, Pat Gallagher, and our CFO, Doug Howell. At the end of our commentary, we will open it up for Q&A for those dialed in. Additionally, we posted our updated CFO commentary document approximately 15 minutes ago on our investor relations website at www.ajg.com/june4materials. An 8-K regarding this information was filed this afternoon as well. With that out of the way, let's jump right into the first topic today. Pat, maybe can you spend a few minutes talking about Gallagher's competitive position today and what makes the company different?
Thanks, Ray. I'll try to keep it to a few minutes. Also, welcome everyone to our second quarter IR Day meeting. From my point of view as CEO, Gallagher is operating from a position of real strength, and we continue to build upon that foundation. A few items worth highlighting. For starters, we have a very attractive growth profile. We're growing organically and through our merger and acquisition strategy. In fact, our revenues have grown double digits for 17 consecutive quarters. Business is also highly profitable. Our combined brokerage and risk management segments trailing 12-month adjusted EBITDA margin of 34.5% is up more than 700 bps over the past five years. We continue to focus on improving productivity and quality. The company has industry-leading talent with deep expertise that goes to market with a recognized brand through a consistent global approach to sales and client service.
We have client capabilities in approximately 130 countries, more than 57,000 employees, and the ability to provide professional advice and solutions across insurance, reinsurance, human capital, and the claims management space. Today, we can handle any risk of any size anywhere in the world. As I think about the market opportunity, I realize that the insurance market is large and growing. Whether you're a retail store owner or patron building a new property, shipping goods across oceans or continents, renting an apartment, or even driving a car, you need insurance to do all these activities. That's why I refer to insurance as the oxygen of commerce. As I look across our global network, rich industry verticals, and wide-ranging product offering, the organic growth opportunity for Gallagher remains enormous. The Swiss Re Institute estimates there is more than $7 trillion of annual insurance premiums globally, $4 trillion alone in non-life premium.
Gallagher touches around $125 billion of premium annually. We only touch a small portion of the market today. Think about that for a second. There are hundreds of billions of revenues out there for us to go and get. As economies expand, new risks emerge, or more coverage is required or desired, the insurance industry just grows and grows. Regardless of the market backdrop, we should be able to compete and to win. That's because, really, our focus on specialization, our niches, our ability to deliver benefits, advice, and wholesale reinsurance solutions. Secondly, our differentiated value proposition through Core 360 or Gallagher's People Strategy, superior technology, data analytics. Lastly, our unique Gallagher culture that promotes teamwork across divisions, geographies, and segments. I believe Gallagher can grow faster than the insurance industry in just about any environment.
That focus on growth, profitability, and culture has produced outstanding long-term shareholder returns. As of March 31, 2025, the returns of 104% over three years, 349% over five years, and 793% over the past 10 years.
Thanks, Pat. That was a great, great answer and really differentiates us. Maybe shifting gears, though, can you talk about the global insurance market conditions? I think investors would probably be most interested to hear about any differences we're seeing between property and casualty classes and then maybe also trends by client size.
Sure. Let me provide some observations from a global perspective. Overall, the primary global P&C insurance market continues to behave rationally. Investors are looking to grow in lines and geographies where they believe there is an acceptable return, while continuing to seek rate increases where it's needed to generate an appropriate underwriting profit. Take casualty, where we continue to see renewal premiums increasing year over year. Thus far, in the second quarter, global casualty increases, which include general liability, commercial, and auto umbrella, are up 8% and more than 9% in the U.S. As we've been discussing for some time, trends such as social inflation, continued reserve additions, medical cost increases, and litigation financing continue to drive renewal premium increases, and they don't appear to be subsiding.
Shifting to property lines, which is a particularly heavy seasonal line of business for Gallagher during the second quarter, here we are seeing renewal premiums down about 5% thus far during the quarter. It still might be early for recent severe convective storm activity to impact the market, and carriers are still digesting California wildfire losses. Additionally, hurricane season officially began this week. NOAA and Colorado State University scientists are predicting an active U.S. wind season. All of this could quickly change the property market dynamics. Breaking down overall renewal premiums by client size, we continue to see divergence between small to mid-size accounts and large accounts. So far during the second quarter, small to mid-size accounts, which we define as accounts generating less than $100,000 of revenue, renewal premiums are up 3%. For large accounts or clients generating more than $100,000 of revenue, renewal premiums are down 2%.
Now, these second quarter figures are both heavily seasonally influenced by property coverages. Excluding property, both small to mid-size accounts and large accounts are seeing renewal premium increases in the 4%-6% range. These are just broad bands we're observing across our global footprint. However, it's important to note that pricing is ultimately driven by client loss experience. Good accounts will likely get some premium relief in certain lines. However, accounts with poor experience won't see the renewal premiums move lower. Let me move to the reinsurance market. April reinsurance renewals experienced broadly similar conditions as early this year, but there was a bit more downward pricing pressure on Japan-specific renewals. Mid-year property renewals ahead of U.S. wind season are also seeing lower pricing, overall concentrated within the highest layers. However, demand for increased limits is somewhat offsetting these decreases. Gallagher Re should continue to excel in this environment.
Let me shift to some thoughts about the economy. Within our daily revenue indications from audits, endorsements, and cancellations, we are still seeing our clients growing. Stated another way, we are not seeing a broad, meaningful economic slowdown within our data. Regardless of the ultimate outcome of tariffs, our team will continue to deliver risk management advice and insurance solutions to help clients navigate the economic backdrop. Within the U.S., the labor market is on solid footing, while trends from health insurance carriers show continued increases in medical utilization and treatment costs. Employee benefits business continues to see strong demand from employers looking for workforce and benefit cost advice. Shifting to Gallagher Bassett and our risk management segment, we are also seeing our clients continue to grow, so we are not seeing indications of a broad economic slowdown.
Demand for our services remains very strong, especially against the backdrop of rising loss costs and workers' comp and casualty-related lines. We believe we can deliver better claim outcomes for our clients in these core offerings and many others. As we mentioned on our last earnings call, recent new client wins are a tailwind for the second half of 2025 revenue growth. All this said, we believe the market is supportive of strong organic growth. Frankly, we like this calmer market because it allows our colleagues to better demonstrate our leading expertise, data and analytical insights, and top-notch service capabilities.
Great. Thanks for that overview, Pat. Another key strategy of Gallagher's is mergers and acquisitions. Can you talk about Gallagher's M&A strategy, the current M&A pipeline, and then any updates you want to share on AssuredPartners?
As I look across our various businesses and geographies, there remains a terrific opportunity to grow through mergers. According to a leading insurance brokerage consulting firm, there are upwards of 30,000 agencies and brokerage firms in the U.S. alone. We believe there could be another 30,000 or so across our major operating geographies around the globe. Gallagher's a great home for these entrepreneurs and owners who have roots in the local communities and are looking for additional value to their current clients and help to further advance their employees' careers. We get their brains, and that makes Gallagher better, while they get access to our various niche practice groups, our data and analytics, a wide range of management solutions, unique product offerings, and a recognized brand name and a more efficient back and middle office.
M&A at Gallagher is about believing we can be better together for the benefit of our clients. That's the 1 + 1 = 3, 4, or even 5. When firms merge with Gallagher, they understand that we are their final home. They won't be flipped. They have to change their name numerous times, and they won't have to stop investing in the business in order to pay significant interest costs. They also realize that any equity they have is exactly as all other employees, including the management team. So far in the second quarter, we've completed seven new mergers representing nearly $300 million of estimated annualized revenue, bringing our year-to-date total of annualized acquired revenue to more than $400 million. Looking at our current M&A pipeline, we have more than 30 term sheets signed or being prepared, representing around $400 million of annualized revenue.
The pipeline is very strong and full of M&A opportunities around the globe that can continue to contribute to our long-term strategic plans. As for the pending AssuredPartners acquisition, not much to update relative to our May earnings call commentary. We've received all regulatory approvals outside the U.S. antitrust, and the response to the second request is ongoing. We continue to believe we will respond to the second request mid-third quarter, which will put us on track to close in the second half of 2025.
Great. Thanks for that update, Pat. Maybe now shifting to our financial outlook. Doug, any update to our full year 2025 outlook for organic or margins?
Sure. Thanks, Ray. Good afternoon, everyone. Last quarter, we provided you with our view that we would post full year brokerage segment organic growth in that 6%-8% range. That remains unchanged from what we've seen over the last five weeks since we last spoke to you. We also told you that we expected second quarter organic growth of 6%-7% and third and fourth quarter organic growth of about 5% in each quarter. As we sit here today, we're seeing organic more consistent across the next three quarters. Call it about 5.5% each quarter. This shift across the quarters is being influenced by a couple of items. First, as Pat just discussed, our second quarter is seasonally weighted to property lines, and we're seeing renewal premiums coming in a little less than we were seeing at the end of April.
As we have been discussing for years, we have large life sales, which can tend to come in kind of lumpy. We have a couple of specific contracts that we previously expected to close in the second quarter that are shifting back into the second half of the year. This is very consistent with what we saw last year. With our first quarter organic in that 9.5% range, and then if we post 5.5% in each of the next three quarters, we are still on track to be in that 6%-8% range for full year 2025. Also, just do not forget about the timing impact that we mentioned in our last earnings call. Remember that we had about a point of favorable impact on first quarter's 9.5% organic.
Second quarter's 5.5% organic will include just a small favorable impact, but not to the same magnitude as first quarter. We expect a little favorable first half timing to reverse itself in the third and fourth quarters. All that leads to no impact on full year 2025 organic growth, but a good reminder today while we've got everybody on the phone. All right. You also asked about margins. We expect second quarter headline margin expansion of about 280 bps . This includes strong underlying margin expansion of about 50 bps , assuming organic in that 5.5% range. The interest income related to cash that we're holding for AssuredPartners.
We also see a small offset to margins driven by the rolling impact of M&A revenues that just naturally run lower margins, and then slightly lower interest rates relative to the second quarter last year. I look out at the third quarter, we're still expecting underlying margin expansion, including interest income in that 260 bps-290 bps . Of course, that depends on the ultimate closing of AssuredPartners. When it gets out to the fourth quarter, we had hoped to have AP close by then. We would still have underlying margin expansion on the 5.5% organic growth and then have the rolling impact of AP's fourth quarter results. We would, of course, no longer have interest income on the funds that we're holding for AssuredPartners financing. With all that said, I think it serves repeating that our underlying margin expansion story remains unchanged.
We believe at organic greater than 4%, we should see some underlying margin expansion. At 6% organic, maybe 60 bps of expansion. At 8% organic, perhaps around 100 bps of margin expansion. Again, we're well positioned to expand underlying full year 2025 margins by about 60 bps-100 bps . Over the medium term, we continue to see a lot of opportunity to get better, faster, and cheaper by harvesting some of the benefits that we get from scale. Let me just drill down on that a little bit. Here are some things that I think that we should all keep in our minds that we could benefit from over the next couple of years. Right now, we're seeing a more stable labor environment, which should control compensation costs within our non-production workforce.
Secondly, our technology spend continues to migrate from infrastructure to more and more client-facing sales and service tools. Third, we're getting the increased—as we increase our centralization of the back office services across various divisions and geographies. Fourth, our core operating systems have really been built to have industrial strength. I think it's important to understand. This means we can add considerably more transaction volume and revenues with very little incremental cost. All of these point to better offerings to our clients from the economies of scale than ever before. I think our margin outlook over the coming years is still a strong outlook, Ray. When you get to the risk management segment, we continue to see full year organic also in that 6%-8% range.
As we mentioned on our first quarter earnings call, we are expecting greater organic in the second half versus the first half due to new business that we won earlier in 2025, but did not incept until late in the second quarter or the early third quarter. For the risk management segment, adjusted EBITDA margins, we still expect to be at approximately 20.5% for each quarter and then also for full year 2025. Really no new news for the risk management segment. I think that is my comments when it comes to organic and margins, Ray.
Great. Thanks, Doug. Maybe now, any sound bites you'd like to provide the group from the updated CFO commentary document on our website?
Sure. I'll take a second on that. There's not a lot of changes when you look forward, look at it since we posted this during our earnings call about five weeks ago. There are a few comments from that document. Again, that's posted on the website, our IR website. Before I move to the specifics, I think it's good to just give you a heads-up that as you read the headers and footnotes carefully, many of these numbers in the document, you'll note that some of them include and some of them exclude the impact of AssuredPartners. Just as an overarching statement, take a look at those headers and footnotes carefully.
When you go to page three, the only thing to call out here is that our outlook in 2025 or the changes to the revenue and EPS impact for FX for both the brokerage and risk management segments. We updated that using yesterday's FX rates. Most of that is due to the weakening of the dollar against foreign currencies. When you turn to page four, the corporate segment outlook for 2025, we've updated our second quarter estimate for interest and banking expense, and we are seeing a slightly higher M&A-related expense this quarter due to a few international tuck-in opportunities. Third, when you look at the corporate line, again, given the weakening of the dollar, we currently have a non-cash FX remeasurement loss of about $12 million. We've incorporated that into our updated second quarter estimate that you see there in the pinkish columns.
Just a reminder, further movement in FX rates could impact the corporate line before the end of the quarter. When you flip over to page five of that CFO commentary, just a reminder about our $710 million tax credit carried forward. As you might recall, we continue to expect additional cash flows around $180 million or more this year. That cash flow benefit should grow in 2026 and later years. We are really not seeing any impact to this outlook from the U.S. tax bill passed by the House. All things good there. Of course, our constant reminder, this benefit shows up in our cash flow statement, not in our P&L. If I turn over to page six, the investment income table at the top of the page, we are still assuming two 25 bp rate cuts during 2025.
We've updated these forecasts to reflect the current FX rates and changes in estimated fiduciary cash balances. Overall, not much difference to what we published five weeks ago, but just a call out to use that table. You will also see the interest in that table associated with the AssuredPartners financing that's still being shown to run through the end of the third quarter. Finally, as we shift down to the page, the rollover revenue table, you'll see in the pinkish columns to the right include estimated revenues for brokerage M&A closed through yesterday. In this case, we have about a month before the end of the quarter, you'll need to make a revenue pick for future M&A that will be recognized in the second quarter and then in later quarters. Below this table, we have a separate section for AssuredPartners.
We just show you the monthly pro forma revenues there in purple. Then continuing down the page, you'll see risk management segment rollover revenues for each of the remaining three quarters of 2025 are estimated to be approximately $12 million a quarter. Overall, not a lot of movement in this document. Again, like I said at the preamble to this, relative to what we provided in conjunction with our first quarter earnings call five weeks ago.
Perfect. Thanks, Doug. That concludes the topics that we had formally wanted to cover. With that operated, we'd like to now open up the meeting for Q&A.
Thank you. We'll now be conducting a question-and-answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. A confirmation tone will indicate your line is in the question queue. You may press star two to remove your question from the queue. For participants using speaker equipment, it may be necessary to pick up the handset before pressing the star keys. One moment, please, while we pull for questions. Our first question is from Christian Getzoff with Wells Fargo.
Hi. Good morning or good afternoon. My first question is kind of on workers' comp trends. Given your visibility kind of into severity and frequency workers' comp trends through Gallagher Bassett, and this is kind of topical just given some of the large comp increases we've seen in certain states in the last couple of months, can you provide some color on what you're seeing in that space in terms of medical severity? We've heard about higher utilization rates and maybe your expectations for those trends in the short to intermediate term.
Working backwards on that, the expectations for the trends, I think that medical inflation is here, and I think it's here to stay. I think you're going to see that. I think you're still seeing some pretty outlandish verdicts in that space also. I think there's still pressure on that in terms of for Gallagher Bassett. Remember, we settled those claims with our clients' money. Certainly going to hurt the clients when it comes to their loss picks a little bit. That's unfortunate as inflation hits those numbers. I think this is the time where you're really going to see Gallagher Bassett's capability shine in helping their customers navigate as they're seeing the inflation, they're seeing the verdicts, they're seeing changes in expectations. It will trend more to more severity.
I think you're going to probably see an uptick a little bit in frequency when it comes to that, which would translate into additional revenues for Gallagher Bassett. The trends that you recapped in your opening statement is what we're seeing also on that. This is a time for Gallagher Bassett that can really show their wares.
Yeah. I think that's really my point, and Christian, I think this is Pat. I think that for the last maybe decade, that has not been an issue. I mean, it's been a pretty flat line. We've had somewhat five, six, seven years of escalating prices. D&O went through a round trip, really up, really started to come down. All through that time, comp kind of stayed flat. It was interesting to us in terms of talking about that. What's going on here? Now, all of a sudden, you're seeing sort of a resurrection of the spiraling costs there. The good news about that is it will differentiate, as Doug said, our capability to deliver outcomes for our clients.
We're going to be able to say, "Okay, look at how our outcomes are versus what's going on in the general market." I contend that that's going to stand up very, very well.
Great. Thank you. For my follow-up question, for your brokerage organic forecast, the 5.5% through the next three quarters, I guess, what does that assume in terms of pricing and exposure? I understand Q2 is kind of a big property renewal, but are you kind of assuming casualty continues to increase from here and property continues to see some pressure? I guess, what are the gives and takes there?
Listen, we're coming into storm season, so let's see what happens with the prognostication about property. I think property still has some challenges in it, so we'll see if we get through the season. When it comes to casualty, it's interesting. It's a great tee-up, but we were looking at some data over the last few months. If you take out property and you take out package, when you look at casualty, now this is all, excuse me, all liability lines, which would include D&O and workers' comp, which D&O was going backwards, comp was kind of flattish. It's kind of a flat market running in that 5%-6% range of renewal of premium changes. Really, I'm just looking at a schedule right here. You go back in the fourth quarter of 2022, all liability lines were up 5%. Here in the second quarter, up 5%.
You could throw a hat over all of these numbers. You're not seeing it, which is showing you what we've been saying, is that casualty needs continued steady rate increases to stay ahead of the loss costs. I think that the carriers are seeing that. They're behaving rationally on this. The importance on both of these comments is it informs what we're seeing over the next three quarters. We see a casualty market that's still having upward pressure to it. We're seeing reinsurance rates stabilizing, a little more trouble on the casualty side than it is on the property side. A market like today is what we're seeing going forward over the next three quarters. We're not seeing a falloff in our customers' data. Their renewals are steady. We're not seeing a shrinkage of exposure units.
They seem to be growing in some time of uncertainty in the economy here. What informs our 5.5% in each of the next three quarters? It's all of those things pulled together. The team's doing a really good job of showing their wares in this less chaotic environment too. Our new business is holding up pretty darn well right now.
I think that's the point I'd jump on there is the new business opportunities. When we've got a situation like this in terms of the marketplace, it really gives us a chance to step in and say, "In your vertical, what you do in construction, in housing, whatever it might be, we're the experts. Let us show you how to deal with this. Where are your opportunities to improve, save some money, etc.?" It's not just saving money. It really is improving your risk management profile. I think that those opportunities to continue to drive that are very good in a market like this.
Thank you.
Our next question is from Mike Zieremski with BMO Capital Markets.
Hey, thanks. Good afternoon. I guess back to the outlook on RPC, pricing. On property specific, would you be willing to kind of bifurcate large versus small RPC? And I'm just curious, I know pricing for property is more volatile given its impact by weather, but if we assume kind of normal weather losses over the next six to 12 months, do you expect property to be soft, at least in large account in 2026 as well, or is this kind of maybe a one-time step down?
All right. A lot there. The renewal premium change between large and small accounts, small accounts are feeling more upward pressure on pricing in property than larger accounts. I think that in terms of you talk about normal weather for the rest of the year. Did we forget about the California wildfires? We can't forget about what was happening here with these early tornadoes that were devastating communities. I don't think that this is going to be a normal loss year with the way we've started off at the beginning of the year. You used the word soft. It's not a soft property market. Let's make sure that when we're talking about property being flat or down a few points, that's not a soft market.
Let me pile in on that. I mean, we spent some time in the New York office. In my walk around, I had a chance to spend some time with one of our property experts. He's very clear. You have bad losses. You're in a tough geography. You're in a tough class. This is not a mitigating, it's not a moderating market. He's got clients right now on the boil. He's having a tough time placing. That can be in residential. That can be in places that are seeing convective storms. It could be shared and layered programs. There is still a lot of work to do out there to get some of this stuff done.
Okay. Got it. That's helpful. Going back, Doug, to your comments about M&A revenues being a bit lower margin, I feel like you started talking about that a bit after the Buck deal, but maybe I'm incorrect. Can you unpack that? Has anything changed in recent years or on a go-forward basis based on what you're buying or valuations or both? How to think about that?
Yeah. Maybe I should have—yeah, I'm sorry. Maybe I should have quantified. We're talking about maybe 10 basis points of the impact. I guess we talked about that a lot at the earnings call five weeks ago, so I probably could have added that into my comments. We're seeing just a touch less as these companies come in. They're just not running the margins that we are in some cases. It is a good catch on that. I probably should have clarified it. We're talking about 10 b ps on that.
Let's look at the model that they're joining. This is one of the things that gets me excited about the whole M&A process. You've got 13,000 of our associates in India making us better every day. We've spent now 20 years concentrating on getting more productive and having a higher level of quality. The investment world translates that right into margin, and you should. That's fine. I translate it into things like, "How many certificates of insurance go out the door that aren't wrong?" Try three million last year. These firms that we're buying—and yes, we get headline deals like AP and what have you—we close the deal today, and it doesn't rock the boat. Those people don't have any of these tools. They have no data. They have no analytics. They've got no capabilities. That's what we're bringing to the table here.
Got it. I guess I'll sneak one last one in on Assured. Would there be any wiggle room, or would you ever consider changing any of the kind of retention bonus kind of figures to the extent the deal kind of elongates, or is that not something you'd want to talk about?
No. We're very good at keeping our people. We're good at that because we're brokers. This deal is going to help those brokers make a lot more money. I think they're smart enough people to see it.
Yeah. We're just not seeing pressure right there. Right now, on the AssuredPartners side, from what we can tell going on and hearing from them, is that I think their production staff is pretty excited about joining us. We're not feeling that. I think that AssuredPartners has built a great franchise on why people want to work for them and why we'll be better together. I think that's a pretty good story on that. When the deal does close, they're going to get some nice recognition out of that. They'll get stock in Gallagher now that they can actually see what the value of. That's real money to them now. It's not a promise for the future. I think they're going to be pretty excited to own a Gallagher share.
I'll tell you what's fun about talking to that group. As you know, we've had two meetings before we slowed down with the Department of Justice, where we had 70 of their leaders in one week and 70 the next. Those people are chomping at the bit to get a traded equity, one called Gallagher. There's not one of them walking around the room that doesn't know our chart is up 793% over 10 years, it's up 349% over five, and now they're looking at over 100% in a year. They get it. They want to be part of it. As Doug said, they're excited to be getting a real stock.
Great to hear. Thank you.
Our next question is from Gregory Peters with Raymond James.
Good afternoon, Pat, Doug, and Ray. A couple of questions. There's a lot of noise in the marketplace about conditions in the excess and surplus lines market versus the admitted. There's also we're hearing a lot about MGA interests in the marketplace. I thought maybe you could spend a minute just to give us your perspectives on the E&S market versus the admitted, the puts and takes there, and also talk a little bit about the MGA market and what you guys are seeing there.
Yeah. I'd be glad to jump on that first, this Pat. I think, first of all, the excess and surplus market, it makes perfect sense that it's growing the way it is because carriers want to offer product to the client first. They want the premium income. We know that. They also prefer free to form and free to rate. There's a lot of need out there that is not going to just be a standard form of cover that comes from a licensed carrier that submits that form and that pricing to a regulator. Now, don't get me—and I don't want to sound like there's no regulation. You know that, Greg. I mean, there's E&S rules.
The fact that we can make an adult deal across the table with someone that is looking to have some risk management help regarding their premium and their coverage document, it makes perfect sense. Whether it's wildfires in California or floods in North Carolina, that excess and surplus market is growing. I think it's partly appetite on the part of the insurers, and it's also interest in really specifically insuring what they want to insure on the part of buyers. The MGA world is a different world, and it's also very interesting to me. You've got highly talented underwriting people, highly talented folks that can, in fact, underwrite a specific line of cover that can now more easily access capital. The market's responding incredibly well to that. Now, as you know, we've been buying MGAs for 15 years, 20 years. We like that business.
Our program in MGA business has been very, very strong for us. It's no surprise to me to see that growing because talent can access capital, which can then access premium, and everybody wins. I think you're going to see that continuing on. I think that's a real growth factor for the future.
Okay. I feel like every year I ask you this question, but it seems to get earlier on in the year, and it's about organic revenue growth beyond the next three quarters. I'm not trying to put you in a box, but with the five and a quarter, you had the unusual first quarter, the guidance for the remaining three quarters, plus the unusual strength in the first quarter. Just trying to figure out how I should think about organic next year. Maybe you're not prepared to go there, but maybe you could—if we look at this year as an example, should we expect a bumper first quarter followed by slower second, third, and fourth quarters going forward? Any sort of information on the cadence going forward would be helpful.
Right. Yeah. Great question, Greg. I think that maybe I'd tailor some words a little bit. I think that we're seasonally strong in the first quarter, right? I think with our reinsurance business and our benefits business, if you've got reinsurance being strong and if you've got headcount growth going on in the economy, which you can read the reports that we're just reading over the last couple of days, that there's lots of job openings right now. And so it should be workforce growth. You're going to see Gallagher having strong first quarters and more levelized two through 4Q results. This pattern that you're seeing, remember, we probably had a little timing in the first quarter this year of a point.
Even if you call that 8.5% and then you spread that point over the next three quarters, and it is like 6.66 or 5.7, 5.7, 5.7, I think we are going to continue to see that type of difference between first, second, third, and fourth quarters going forward. The next question you are trying to tease out of us, which is fair, is how do we see next year? Probably still a little early for us to make a firm pick on that. I still see tailwinds in the industry on the casualty side, similar to what we are seeing now. I would be surprised to see—I think property is probably pretty well priced right now. It was going up 20% for a number of a couple of years. Now if it is kind of flattish, maybe that makes sense into 2026, the way pricing is.
Reinsurance, I don't think's getting abundantly cheaper. I'm not seeing an influx of tons of capital into the business, virtually none on the liability side. Maybe next year feels a little bit like this year. I'm sitting there, but I'm not going to give a percentage right now. I think it's a little premature for me to do it. As we go into the budget process that we'll start this summer, by the time we talk to you in July and then maybe again in September, I'll probably have a better idea of that. Maybe next year is a lot like this year.
Fair enough. Just related to that, you've always provided these benchmarks on organic revenue growth and margin expansion. When I look at the three remaining quarters being in the 5%+ range, does the same formula that you've referenced before still apply, or do you want to adjust any of that?
No. I think it's pretty consistent what I've said is I think you're going to see nice underlying margin expansion in each of the next three quarters on that 5.5% organic growth. It gets a little noisy with the investment income that we're earning on the AP funds sitting there waiting to be spent. AP coming in in the fourth quarter will replace that. Right now, I'm really excited. When I'm saying when we're talking about opportunities to get better, faster, and cheaper, I think that we see lots of opportunities to deliver some pretty exciting sales and service tools. I still see us having an opportunity to automate. Some of the early projects we're doing on AI are really exciting. Next year, I think that we're going to spend close to $1.5 billion on technology that's toggling from infrastructure over into sales and service capabilities.
Greg, those things are going to deliver amazing benefits going forward. I get excited about the capabilities for us to get better, faster, and cheaper. I also see some pretty exciting opportunities to spend a little of that on continuing to excel on organic growth by reducing lost business, increasing new business. The margin profile for us is in a really great spot right now.
Thanks for the color. I have to slip in the last question, just pivoting back to AP. Have you gotten any signal from the government on the process? Because your messaging is not changing that much. I am just curious, because the government's gotten involved, does that mean you stand down on integration work or pre-work on the integration? Just looking for some more color. That is my last question.
Let me take a part of that, Greg. We had 13 work streams all laid out. It is very clear that about 11 of them have to stand down, and two of them very clearly can move forward. That is around personnel planning, IT planning, etc. When it comes to actually competing in the marketplace, niche strategies, that type of thing, leadership in various places, we had to stop those work streams. From that perspective, we are simply putting our head down. The request for information is very detailed. It is very large, and it requires work both on Gallagher's side and AP's side to finally certify. The filing is a lot of work, and we are playing it right down the middle of the fairway. What you ask for is what you are going to get. That is your responsibility as the Department of Justice, and we are happy to comply.
We don't expect that they'll find anything to quibble about, and then we'll close in the second half.
Yeah. I'll add to that too, is that when it comes to that, I think that when we talk about all the back office functions, there's no slowdown in that. As a matter of fact, I think that if there's a nine-month delay from beginning to end to get this thing closed, I think that maybe we'll have lost a month or two during that time. There isn't much shrinkage on that. I think that I want to make sure that there were 11 key work streams that were—were two of them that we've stopped. I want to make sure that we heard each other right on that. Those are things that we just don't want to talk about, client profitability or carrier relations. Those are things that are competitive in the marketplace.
When it talks about a general ledger, Sarbanes-Oxley compliance, when it talks about 606 accounting, when it talks about IT hardening their environment to equal our environment, those things are full speed ahead right now. I do not think we are going to lose much time in getting this thing integrated because of a slowdown in the actual regulatory approval on these back office and middle office functions.
Fair enough. Thank you for your patience with my questions.
Thanks, Greg.
Our next question is from David Motemaden with Evercore ISI.
Hey, good afternoon. I had a follow-up just on the AssuredPartners deal and the DOJ second request for information. Is that something that you and AP engage in together or separately? Is there any more information that you've learned about AssuredPartners as you've sort of been going through this request that you didn't know before you did the deal? Anything else you've learned that you can share, either positive or negative, just on the business you're acquiring?
First of all, I'll let Doug talk about the technical sides of the accounting, as he said, what have you. I'll tell you from the personnel standpoint, from the excitement of what we're seeing in the field, it's getting better, not worse. Again, we've had to stand down and doing an awful lot of integration stuff working accounts together. Our team is chomping at the bit. We get calls every day. This is going to be the greatest thing. Of course, you find once you do something like this, about 11,000 people, you've got people related that work in both companies that are excited talking back and forth. I would say that if anything, with what we're just seeing in the marketplace in terms of customer reaction, in terms of market reaction, in terms of producer reaction, the story is getting stronger, not weaker.
I can't wait to get this thing closed and really show you what we can do.
Yeah. I think just from a data and document request standpoint, all this information that they're requesting, we're going to have to put that together inside of a singular company anyway. So pulling it together, it would have been nice to not have to do it in a hellfire hurry on it to get things done. I think that we're getting it. We're getting data structured. We worked down separate paths on this, but we do have an outcome at the end that should have a lot of commonality. As a result of providing, as they've got to scrape data together and we've got to scrape data together, the outcome will be much easier because it'll be common by the time it gets together at the DOJ.
Converting that over onto a common system really will be something we'll be able to do much easier as a result of this effort. All the document collection, carrier contracts, supplemental and contingent contracts, all of those big repositories that are being requested by the DOJ, those things will come into our repositories much smoother now once we get the approval to go for it. Separate now, but we're all going to end up in the same place. That should really help us. I'm telling you, the data that we have by ourselves, the data that they're going to provide, all will lead to a better offering for our customers. I think that's the ultimate outcome of this is we think this merger makes a better outcome for our customers. I think the DOJ should see that too.
They have the right to ask for all this information. When we give it to them, I think they're going to see that this thing is good for the customers.
Got it. Great. Thanks for that help there. Maybe also just in terms of strategically how you guys think about growth. When I think about M&A at the end of the day, it's just adding producers, adding headcounts, which is pretty similar to team lifts and growing organically. Could you just talk a little bit about how you think about the difference between the two, sort of organic hiring and M&A, and maybe also just touch on the economics between the two and how you guys decide between whether it's better to buy or build?
David, I really appreciate that question because I do think that you're on to something that has got to be recognized. The M&A strategy is just exactly that. It's a strategy. It's hard work. We have people out talking to potential sellers every single day. Yesterday, I spent time in the office with another person that's considering selling their firm. Today, we announced a closure. That doesn't happen because we've got an elevator of people and a line outside of our building saying, "Please buy me." This is a strategy that takes recognition, calling, follow-up, strategy, then finally closing implementation, integrating these people, and then turning them into 1 + 1 = 5 people. We do see we get a lift. When we bring these folks on, back to your point, this is very, very close to just an organic hire.
If I hire a producer from a competitor or start one off from our internship, right away, bingo, we look at that as organic growth. Isn't that great? 17 quarters of double-digit growth uninterrupted. That's real growth. By the way, when we buy these firms, and they know this, we buy them at a trading multiple that's less than the multiple we're trading at. We get a built-in lift. They come aboard with our tools, and we always get a merger bump. I'm talking on the little ones now, where someone has had a long-standing relationship. They can't call on them. The biggest contractor in the county, the guy I went to high school with, the people I've known as a family friend who just, they can't give me their insurance. Out they come with our expert. Now we can talk.
We always get a little bump there, and it is exactly like an organic hiring strategy. When you get to the jumbos where we're going to spend billions of dollars, of course, I look at that as, "Okay. Make sure we kick the tires, do our due diligence." Not that we don't on the small ones. On the small ones in particular, 95% of the due diligence is on whether the culture fits. Do we like each other? That strategy is we try to find people we like, who love the business, that sell to us, and then they stay. Doesn't sound very difficult, but it isn't easy. When I look back and see our record in that regard, and you could talk to any B-school professor, and they'll basically say I'm lying. Our failure rate is under 2%.
These people come aboard because we do a good job of picking, and they stay with us, and they love selling insurance. You're exactly right. I clearly understand that everybody wants to know how we're doing organically. The investor has to step back and say, "What's the real growth story here?" By the way, when's it going to run out? When are they going to run out of opportunities? Thirty thousand people from now, 30,000 firms from now in the U.S. alone. We touch $125 billion of premium in a $7 trillion market, and we're one of three or four people that have the kind of data and analytic capabilities we've got. Right down to the middle market, they want that data and analytics. What do people like me buy? What are losses happening in my geography, in my vertical? That stuff makes a difference.
When I take a look out, I'm just telling you, man, I used to take names off trucks and make cold calls. We are a long way from that now. A lot of that comes from the brains we get by buying people. It is a very good point, and you can tell I'm on my high horse, so thanks.
Yeah. You asked one other tag on that. I think just let me—you got the theory. There is a terrific arbitrage. We think about this every day as we wake up, and we want to make sure that our same store sales are increasing every day, right? The other day, we're trying to figure out where we build more stores. The advantage that we have with our model is basically we get paid an arbitrage multiple to build a new store that already has built-in customers. I don't have to take that customer from another store across the street. They're already coming into my store. The fact is that you get those stores at a discount versus what you have to build in yourself. It is very hard to take a person.
I go back now 22 years when we first dropped somebody into New York City to try to do a De novo startup in New York City. It took forever.
Lost a lot of money.
It lost a lot of money. Trying to do that in London, trying to do it in others.
Reinsurance.
Reinsurance. This idea that it's more expensive to buy, I'm not convinced. Now, sure, hiring somebody organically that just comes from one firm over to us, sure, that probably has a better penciling. Just starting up in a location or starting up in a niche or starting up in a vertical or a horizontal, it's expensive as hell anymore because it's just not slapping back. You have to bring the tools and capabilities. We like buying the brains that come along with these shops. It gets us into territory. The real question is, what's the washout rate on just doing a De novo? It's a big number.
People forget how big this business is. I have mentioned 30,000. It is a big number. We have a deal to acquire AssuredPartners. One of the due diligence points was, how many of their deals did we get to look at that we did not get that account, that merger partner to join us? 6%. 94%, we never even got a chance to look at them. That is how big this is. Even the AssuredPartners multi-billion dollar transaction is bringing basically new producers into the tent.
And David.
Thank you so much for that.
That's all.
Really, I appreciate it.
Our next question is from Andrew Kligerman with TD Securities.
Hey. How you doing? I have a couple of questions. One just around the size of AJ Gallagher and AssuredPartners. I've been kind of trying to dig premium numbers up and estimating agent counts. And the numbers are kind of fuzzy, but I kind of come up with maybe the combined entity would be 5% maybe 6% market share. Am I anywhere in the ballpark?
Yeah. That's probably about right.
Yeah.
Okay. Good. With regard to the 5.5% that you're projecting out in brokerage as we kind of move through the next three quarters, could you unpack how much of the brokerage business now? I like Doug's point about the seasonality. It sounds like reinsurance is a lot bigger in one queue. Overall, how big is reinsurance from a revenue contribution standpoint? How big is the wholesaling and delegated authority component? The second part of that question is, how much growth can those pieces roughly contribute?
All right. So listen, maybe I'll use the wheels that we have in our IR presentation we post on our website just to do it. Reinsurance is about 13% of our brokerage business. And then maybe it's about 10% of total Gallagher by the time you throw in risk management, wholesale, 15% of brokerage, retail benefits 23%, and retail P&C is about 50%. When you put in AssuredPartners, it's going to have a big impact on wholesale benefits and retail P&C. It does not have reinsurance, and it does not have risk management. If I did the math quickly, reinsurance is a billion, yeah, a billion three. You can do the math on that. The pie shape, if you went back to our secondary offering documents, it doesn't change the complexion of what Gallagher looks like significantly. It just makes the pie bigger.
The shapes of the slices are about the same, but the circle is a little bit bigger around the edge. I think that therein lies the beauty of that opportunity is it's 300 smaller acquisitions that were done by Jim Henderson and Randy and John and the team that are coming in that fit perfectly into our mix of business. That's why it's great for the customers is because they're going to get all these benefits, all these capabilities that they don't have by themselves. That's why it's such a great merger. Your original, it just takes us from a very small player in the overall business to a slightly bigger, smaller player in the entire business. It's just such a fragmented business spread across $7 trillion of premium. We touch $120 billion, and maybe they're going to add $10 billion to that, something like that.
Maybe more. Still, given your point, Andrew, I think that you add us all together. We do not approach 10% organic. We do not approach 10% market share. When you just stop and then look at, okay, who then has our capabilities that are smaller than we are? I mean, virtually nobody. Nobody. I could take you through capability after capability, and you would go, "Yeah, gosh, if I was in that business, I would want that." I would want to know that you knew really a lot about construction. I would want to know that you knew an awful lot about whatever it might be in terms of real estate, etc., etc. "Well, I will get that from the rest of the market." No, you will not. I would like to call that data together, put it into some advisory concept, and look at it in a comparative fashion. Let us get some analytics.
There isn't any on those below us. It's pretty impressive.
I see. That's very helpful. Maybe just staying on the growth topic for reinsurance and other non-retail businesses outside of the claims business. How do you see reinsurance growing for the balance of the year? How do you see the non-retail brokerage business growing?
I think that capital formation is the crux of the insurance industry and where we are right now. I think that the earlier comments on why are MGAs successful, it's because of underwriters that can get capital to fund the business. Reinsurance is capital creation in this industry. There's an interesting statistic. If you just take $7 trillion of premium, and if it grows at 1% per year, you've got to create a new Gallagher that next year. I'm just using some round numbers. The fact is that you got to have reinsurance in order to create capital formation. E&S is about capital formation programs, self-insurance, captives. Everything that's really the product that's being built behind the sales is the product's got to be supported by capital. I think reinsurance is going to be a tremendous opportunity.
We're underweight in the U.S. in that space right now, and I think we have growth opportunities there. The rest of the world, as they get into having more of those countries have their own insurance, I think they're going to look for the capital that comes from reinsurance. I think it's a tremendous growth opportunity for Gallagher long-term, and it's crucial for the industry.
Now, the other side of your question is, what about the other non-retail businesses? Let me talk about RPS and our wholesale business, both in Bermuda and the U.K. As you know, the excess and surplus market is continuing to grow. We are a huge player in the E&S wholesaling market. RPS is one of the largest wholesalers in the U.S. market. They do about 50%-60% of the Gallagher retailers' wholesale placements. Trade with literally 20,000 other agents and brokers across America. Our specialty operation in London is, in my estimation, the premier specialty wholesale operation in the London market. Those businesses are continuing to excel.
That's super helpful. Thanks.
Thanks, Andrew.
Our next question is from Andrew Andersen with Jefferies.
Hey, good afternoon. Maybe sticking on programs in the MGA business. For a couple of years, it was kind of growing at a low, mid-single-digit organic, and then second half 2024, in this most recent quarter, the organic picked up to kind of teens level. What was driving the change in the improvement in recent periods?
What was the first part of that question? I just missed it. Just say it again.
The organic on the programs and binding, for a couple of years, it was more low, mid-single-digit organic. Recently, it's been kind of teens level, at least in one Q. Just kind of the drivers of the improvement in recent periods.
Yeah. Some of that business, as you know, they'll go into a program as new business startups. And as the economy was growing, some of the new business startups probably fueled some of that growth is my first informed, not guess, but information. That would be the start. That would be one of the reasons to fuel it.
Another part of that is we've had an extended hardening market in property. A large part of the shared and layered programs of larger accounts are all done in the excess and surplus market. You've got a lot of that. With the casualty market having a bit of additional firming, retail brokers are out looking for alternatives, which is also what's helped our growth in captive work and alternative market stuff.
Got it. You mentioned the 30- term sheets being signed or prepared. What is kind of the conversion rate on those, and maybe how does that compare to a historical conversion rate?
I'm sorry. I don't have the law of large numbers on that. When I look at that, I've said this forever. Every single deal, first of all, step back and recognize something that I understand. Every one of these people are selling their babies. When you're talking about a Tucking acquisition, and I'm not talking about the large P/E funded, they've already made the decision to sell. You take a nice firm that's deciding who they're going to join and where they started their business and who grew it and how. They all have a different lifestyle. I've laughed about this. One of our longest courtships was 20 years.
It's not like I can look at a small group that are percolating 30% and tell you, "Oh, the good news is my conversion rate's 50%, either by revenue or by item count." Every single one we price, we'd like to do the deal. Every single one. We don't get them all.
I would say, yes, if it's a signed term sheet, rarely would anything change.
100% on a signed sheet.
If it's being prepared, we'll get half of those, something like that. If it's in the pipeline, it sells, we'll get 25% of them, something like that. That takes a while for it to percolate. If we sign a deal, everybody's pretty agreed to get married.
Once we sign a deal, it never breaks apart. We close. That is one of the reputations I'm proud of. We don't back down and say, "We didn't finish our due diligence." We get to the table, we sign the deal, we close it.
Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question is from Mark Hughes with Truist Securities.
Hi, this is Matt from Mark.
Hey, Mark. Hey, Matt.
Hey. I was just wondering if you could provide a little more detail on the greater than 9% renewal premium growth in casualty in the U.S. and maybe disaggregate that between the lines, umbrella, auto, and GL, if you have that.
Yep. I think that in the casualty space, we are just called D&O, workers' comp, and kind of flattish to 2% to 3% up, something like that. Personal lines, when we look at the liability company, that is up 6%. Then the casualty general liability is up 4%, auto's up 8%, umbrella actually is up 11%. I hope that gives you a better idea. A couple of lines kind of flattish, 1% to 2%. Personal lines up 5% to 6%. General liability, same place. Auto and umbrella kind of leading the path on that.
Yep. That's very helpful. Sorry if I missed this, but have y'all provided the expectation for organic growth and wholesale for 2Q and then maybe how that breaks out between the open brokerage and MGA?
I don't think we did today. I think that's the outlook on that.
We don't have that number.
Understood. Thank you.
Thank you. Not for any reason. I would have to go back and look at the data to see where we are on that.
Our next question is from Alex Scott with Barclays.
Hey. First, what I had for you is just on the reinsurance for renewals. I was just interested if you could maybe further opine on beyond just pricing. What did you see in terms of terms and conditions? Are primaries getting any kind of wiggle room or more flexibility as it comes to the structure of those deals?
We're not seeing any significant flexibility in terms and conditions that we were seeing before on that. I think that the carriers are holding pretty tight on that.
Got it. Okay. That's helpful to know. Maybe unrelated, I'd just be interested if you could talk a little bit about your international businesses and maybe just what's the outlook for growth look like in some of those regions compared to the U.S.? Is there anything more nuanced about what you're doing internationally that we should be thinking about?
Oh, yeah. International business, very, very proud of our international business. I mean, coming from where I started, and you take a look at this now, when you take a look at domestically, we're at about 62% of our revenue in the brokerage segment is coming from domestic efforts. That's what we're doing. 38% or so of the business is outside the U.S. We have an M&A process that's very similar to what we do in the U.S. We've grown Latin America very nicely. We've got a great team down there. We're now strong in Brazil, Chile, Peru, Colombia. We see incredible opportunities there. We're kind of light, probably, to our representation in Europe, Western Europe. Our partnership in Eastern Europe is the strongest brokerage play in the entire Eastern block. Where we are in Asia-Pacific, as you probably saw, we did an announcement.
We went to 100% in the Philippines. That's a broker that we partnered with for well over a decade. Very excited to have Phil and Cher be 100% part of Gallagher now. We're very strong in Australia. I just got back last Saturday from Auckland, New Zealand. Tremendous success there. I think we're the largest retailer in the U.K., and I know we're one of the top three in Ireland. What that's done for us is not just give us size, but it's given us market recognition. As we see in the United States, that's helping line up additional acquisition targets. People are calling us and saying, "Look, I'm here in Brazil. I've watched you guys. You're successful." Or, "I'm here in the U.K., and we think we'd like to kick the tires about possibly joining you folks." That didn't happen at all a decade ago.
I'm very bullish on outside the U.S. The thing I have to say is I can take you anywhere around the world. We could go to Toronto. We could go to Bangalore. We can go to Sydney. We can go to Perth. We can go to Auckland. We can go into the Netherlands, Scotland, and you will feel the Gallagher culture. You walk in and you'll go, "You know what? This feels like Gallagher." The teams are together. They're excited about working together. They like the brand. More importantly, they like the expertise. They love the data and analytics. I think internationally is becoming second nature to us. It's no longer a startup small thing. I see that balance continuing to grow. Our opportunities outside the U.S. are just very, very strong, significant double digits.
I'm very bullish, as you can probably tell.
Thank you for that. That was helpful. Appreciate it.
How are we doing on time, Rick?
We have time for five more minutes, and then we'll—
All right. We'll try to speed date. I think we got a couple more in the queue. Let's see if we can speed date through those and wrap up there.
Our next question is from Meyer Shields with KBW.
Great. Thanks. Yeah, I'll try and be really quick. First, to the extent that your outlook for property premium growth in the second quarter has changed, how much of that, if any, is business reverting from non-admitted to admitted markets?
I think we're still at a site where we're not a ton of that right now.
Okay. Perfect. And then second question, if AssuredPartners closes in the fourth quarter, should we expect the relationship between contingents and supplementals to core commissions and fees, should that be lower next year simply because it's going to take time to get them all on legacy Gallagher contracts?
Listen, it might be a little tough for me to answer now because that's one of the things that we just don't have the ability to have those detailed conversations with the carriers yet. I think the carriers recognize the value that we'll bring together with AssuredPartners. There's no reason why a contract has to start on January 1st. It could start on March 1st.
Let me be clear. Our deals with our carriers, our acquisition premiums are included. If we book it, they pay it. We accrue that. The ones that are contingent related to what your results were last year, etc., etc., that estimation process may take some time into the first or second quarter. Our supplemental arrangements will kick off one month.
Okay. That's very helpful. I didn't know that. Thank you.
Our next question is from Rob Cox with Goldman Sachs.
Hey, Rick. Good afternoon.
Hey, Rob.
Hey. I just want to ask on that new business this quarter. I do not know if you guys had quantified that. I was just curious. I think that has been running in the sort of 2%-3% range. Is that sustainable through market cycles?
Yeah. Yes, I believe it is inside of all. We typically provide that on our quarterly calls, not necessarily during these IR days. We will update that with you here in about six weeks when we are on again. I feel like our production, when I see the dailies that come out on that, we are still selling more than we are losing on that, which is pretty consistent throughout.
Okay. Got it. On the 13,000 associates in India, a lot of improvement not only in quality there, but also in the margin. Curious if there's still room to expand that as a percentage of the overall employee base or if that story has mostly played out.
Oh, no. There's still room. I mean, I think this is my biggest learning experience over the last 15 to 20 years. I've enjoyed the relationship that we've built there over that period of time. They never cease to amaze me in terms of how strong they are as colleagues, how engaged they are in the process, and how good they are at process. Especially if you bring on AI now, before you can really take a process—I’ve learned this from this, of course—and improve it, you have to centralize it. You got to do it one way. Now, once you've spent 20 years doing that, now you can use robotics. You can use AI. For instance, we started this whole thing by doing policy checking in India because we were screwing it up and creating bigger E&Os for ourselves.
A lot of that policy checking now will simply be done by AI. It will actually increase our utilization of AI and make those that are contributing as teammates from India more important on other aspects of the business.
Yeah. I will say on that is that if the business standardizes, it's hard to deploy AI into it. Pat mentioned that. You have to standardize first, then deploy it. We are over the standardization hurdle at this point, so deploying it. I have to say a compliment to our colleagues there. We do not outsource to other companies. These are employees, no different than an employee in London or in Brazil or in Toronto, to use. These are equal employees to every Gallagher employee around the globe. They do a terrific job for that. It's funny. Every time we grow, we grow there. We grow almost 2X in the U.S. and the U.K. The growth in the U.S. and the U.K. and other countries really kind of outpaces even the growth that we have.
It's directly tied together.
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. All right. I believe one follow-up.
Go ahead, Rob. Do one more.
Yeah. Just one follow-up. I think you had mentioned, Pat, that there were 17 quarters of double-digit organic. Was that on the roll-up acquisitions in like 12 years?
Oh, that's not what I said, Rob.
That's not what I said. I said we've had 17 quarters of double-digit growth. And that I consider our M&A process a key part of that growth.
Got it. Yeah. I just wanted to confirm.
Okay. Go ahead.
Okay. Listen, we're done for the afternoon. Thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate your joining us. I think it's obvious today that from my vantage point as CEO, I'm excited. I believe our business is better positioned today than it's ever been positioned. I think we'll have a very strong 2025. We look forward to talking to you in July. Thank you for being with us today.
This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.