Good afternoon, everybody. I'm Chris Schott at J.P. Morgan, and it's my pleasure to be introducing Amneal today. From the company, we have the company's co-CEO, Chirag Patel, who's going to be doing a presentation, and then we're going to jump into a Q&A session from there. But Chirag, happy New Year.
Thank you. Happy New Year, Chris. Thank you very much for joining us at 4:30 P.M. today, but great to see you. I'm very excited to be here, and thank you again, J.P. Morgan, for a wonderful conference here, so we're going to jump right into it. We have a lot to share, and I'm going to start just a little history about the founding of Amneal. Very humble beginning. My brother's here as well this time. We're co-CEOs, co-founders. Our father helped us with his knowledge, and he's also a pharmaceutical scientist. And that's where our humble beginning started in 2002 in Paterson, New Jersey, so we're a U.S. company dedicated to America, and we have a huge mission, which we'll get there, and obviously, it's much needed in the society as well. In 23 years, we have delivered so much savings.
175 million prescriptions are filled with Amneal's products today. Number one in quality. That's our highest priority all the time. All complex dosage forms we have, so we make products from transdermals to in-house injectables to respiratory to topicals, liquid, obviously oral solids, less and less. And biosimilars now, which we partner in. So it's an excellent opportunity, great footing. And we won the best company to work for from BioSpace, which usually won by the Lillys and Novos and big pharma. Amneal won it first time. So it's a fantastic company to. It's the people make it happen. And we're so proud to win that award. So our mission is. We've been very public. We're focused on we call it affordable medicine segment, which consists of retail generics, injectables, and biosimilars. And we'll talk more about each segment as we go forward.
We're probably ranked number three or four today, and we should be number one by 2030 and remain there, and that just is for America, so we're 98% revenue, so all of it is United States, so we're zoomed in focus in the United States, but we're slowly expanding through partnership in Europe and other parts of the world. This is the evolution. This is what we have done. As you know, retail generics got very competitive from companies from China, India, a hundred of competitors, three buyers, it really became highly competitive in 2017, 2018, when FDA started approving so many NDAs, so each one product could have 15 approval, 20 approval, and it's raced to the bottom, so that we have moved out of it. Only 25% of our revenue is on retail oral solid. We're more into complex GX, where you see less competition.
Those products are very complicated drug-device combination, long-acting depot, respiratory injectables, complex injectables portfolio, ready-to-use bags that avoids the hospital errors. So that is, it's not only affordability we're providing. We're also providing solution for our customers. So that is exciting. Then biosimilars, we launched three, about to launch two Denosumab presentation, Xgeva and Prolia. So that would be five biosimilars. I'll speak about biosimilars as we go forward. AvKare has been a great distribution company, value-added distribution to VA/DoD, the second largest. VA/DoD is almost 18 million now recipient in VA/DoD. They're aging. Number of prescriptions are also going up for them. We bring affordable products for government as well. It's direct distribution. Specialty branded, we were Crexont. We just published phase four data. We've been hearing from the physicians and patients that how well that product is doing.
So we're very excited about proving that in phase four, and it's the best oral medicines in Parkinson's maintaining Parkinson's disease in the world. We have our partner in Europe as well running a further trial, and they'll be launching in Europe. We launched in South America, Canada, all over the world, so this is the excellent innovation, and we're very, very proud of what we have done for the Parkinson's patient, and we get a lot of letters. We get a lot of phone calls from the patient that they couldn't walk. Now they're walking, going to the grocery store and playing with grandchildren, so it's been an amazing discovery. We'll continue. Not a discovery. It's our formulation is so well that it absorbs at the right places and crosses the blood-brain barrier to produce more Levodopa for the patient, so that has been amazing.
And we will share more specialty branded products story as we go forward. And GLP-1 peptide that our partnership with Metsera is working out really well. Now it's with Pfizer. And we look forward to work with Pfizer. We already started speaking with them. It's a fantastic two plants we are building dedicated for Pfizer in India, one for manufacturing peptide. It could manufacture up to three to five tons using hybrid processes. And second is auto injector, which could be cartridges, could be PFS, capacity up to 100 million. So global supply. It's additional supply for Pfizer. And we are there to assist Pfizer in all our capacity to make the product very successful. With that, let's just say a reminder how we have progressed over the last six years. We doubled the revenue, doubled the EBITDA.
Net leverage is down from 7.4 to 3.7 now, but it will even further go down. EBITDA is crossing at a high end of 685 plus, so it's tremendous progress. Pipeline is really focused on high value. It's not number of products. It's what each product is doing, and you'll see more and more biosimilars as well. Very excited about the next five years as well. Every year is a growth year, and why? Because of all these areas, it's so essential to have generics, medicine, affordable medicines, biosimilar. You look at the retail generics, it's competitive, so not growing in dollars as much. Injectable is still growing. Huge growth in biosimilars. We'll talk about it separately. The branded side, we could come up with new products, niche products that big pharma doesn't focus on it and keep growing that entity.
And GLP-1 from 2029, 2030 starts adding top and bottom line revenue for us. So it's excellent areas we are in, multiple growth drivers. And we expect all of them to grow high single digits or more. And it's all about execution. Affordable medicines category, we could double the business over the next few years with biosimilars, new complex injectables. It's a really good business. And so many LOEs have doubled in the last five years. So over $234 million worth of branded products going off patent. So it's a huge opportunity. And in biosimilars, there are 130 candidates. Only 20 people talk about it. There are smaller ones, $500 million, a billion, $1.5 billion. But if you can develop it cost-effectively, execute it properly, have right COGS, launch it globally, U.S. being the main market, it's huge growth in that segment as well.
It's needed for the country. It's needed for the patients. As you know, 92% of prescriptions are filled with generic products or biosimilar products. Specialty also, we expect higher growth. Branded products, we'll see what happens to our pipeline assets. They could just keep adding. We do about $540 million in 2025. For specialty, it will keep growing. AvKare is such a niche business. It's value-added for government to keep growing. Total company is growing. It's excellent. Let's talk about Crexont. The first year of launching, we already have 22,000 patients on Crexont. It took six, seven years to get to 22,000 patients for Rytary. It already achieved 3.2% market share. It took Rytary six, seven years. Eventually, Rytary achieved 6% market share. We'll be 6% most likely this year in 2026.
It's patient feedback, doctors' feedback, how the product's doing, the good on time. The phase four, you can see on the right side, it's the best in the industry. You can compare any product, and it's oral. So 3.13 good on time over IR, which is about 80% of prescriptions are IR. About 10% could be IR in combination with COMT inhibitor. We beat that as well by 2.31 hours. And think about the Parkinson's patient and caregiver, huge difference. As I said, we get a lot of thank you letters. And we beat our own product, Rytary, by 1.8 hours. So then this is showing we've been getting calls. Certain doctors have set up a Crexont clinic. So it's amazing. And we are very confident about our projections of our peak sales, $300 million-$500 million. And it's a great product.
We'll continue to research more in Parkinson's category. Another branded product that we have just launched, very useful innovations. Obviously, these are done by companies at our size, affordable medicines, and who have science as well. This is when there's a cluster headache. There's a severe migraine. Patients go to the emergencies. They could drive for whatever, 30 minutes, one hour, then wait in emergency. It's such a massive headache. Then they get DHE auto-injector. We're delivering that at home, auto-injector, just like Mounjaro, Zepbound. You just take it at home. Only FDA approved auto-injector. It's in just two months. The feedback from the cluster headache centers, severe migraine centers, it's very positive what we have done for the patient, saving the emergency visit. It's cost-effective as well for the insurance company. They're authorizing these use.
Then come to our original business foundation. We've been filing certain number of products, getting approval, growing it. Now we see high single digit. It was a low 3-4% growth. Now we see 8-9% growth in complex GX because of respiratory approvals, because of more ophthalmics products being approved, drug-device combination, complex injectables. And this doesn't count in biosimilars. That's a separate within affordable medicine. So we're launching 20-30 key products, high quality. The customers are where you can call customers. They'll tell you who is their number one favorite company. It will be Amneal in complex GX or any GX products. So we're proud to serve our customers. Here, we're not going to go through all of these, but we were so excited. We put it out, the products that have been approved lately and what are going to be approved in the next few quarters.
It's the most exciting pipeline in complex generics. It took us a little time to get back and get restarted as we came back in 2019. And now we're very confident, very happy where it's going. And it's going to keep growing with new products. Every year, you should expect lists like this. And there are higher values. In generics, when you make $20 million, $40 million, that is good product. This is just the United States. We don't even sell outside of the United States. Some of them we may sell in Europe. We have a partner or in India. So excellent. I mean, you see, I mean, I'm not going to go through the well-known brands, huge opportunity, very excited about even biosimilar as well. Denosumab, as we talked about, Prolia, Xgeva, Romidepsin. We are the first company that came up with a radio pharmaceutical approval, Iohexol.
So only GE is the biggest supplier. Now, Amneal. It will take time to build it up as the API is expensive. We don't have volume yet. And we'll get more strength approved. FDA is approving our ready-to-use products very fast as well because they're compounded products. We're turning them to approved product like sodium bicarbonate just got approved today. We brought sodium phosphate. So there's a lot of potassium phosphate we brought. So a lot of products we're bringing which are compounded typically in approved route. And hospitals are very appreciative of that. Moving to the biosimilars. I know everybody's shocked with what happened in first inning of biosimilar or first two, three innings if you use the baseball terms because it was a new thing. FDA just published guidelines, the gold rush. The branded companies jumped in. They thought the pricing would stay very high.
A lot of people invested a lot of money. Like Humira, you saw 12 approvals. Stelara. The whole development, you saw multiple approvals. They spent $200 million-$250 million per product to get in seven years to get to the finish line. Now it is less than five years you can develop the products from start to launch. It could be $50-$75 million if you're really smart about it, which Amneal does a very cost-efficient job. It is a global product. Adoption is 80%+ . Used to be 5%, 10%, 20%. Private label, all three big insurance companies, PBMs are doing private label. They can move the volume just like generics immediately. For example, Xolair, we are very excited about that in an early 2027 launch. We are speaking with private label side as well. They can move the volume immediately.
So you do not need to detail the product like a quasi-brand. So it's a huge opportunities, but it requires complexities are higher as well. So only seven, eight serious players for the United States remained. Sandoz is a leader. We'll be there in a few years. We look forward to vertically integrate, have our own R&D and manufacturing. So that's the key target for us in 2026. And then have a much broader pipeline, a global pipeline. And we will partner as well. So if you think about it, if you have three to five competitors only, those products are going to do commercially really well. And now the channels for conversion is controlled by the payers. So everything is going positive. And many players, unfortunately, have dropped out. They couldn't sustain, stay in the business for 10 years, the smaller companies.
So there's only a few large companies left. Two Korean, right? Celltrion, Samsung. You got Biocon from India, Sandoz. You got mAbxience, Kabi, Amneal. Obviously, Amgen will stay in. Pfizer looks like it's not interested in biosimilar, obviously. Biogen has given up. So you will see very few players. And it takes years to develop this platform, develop the product. You're making your drug substance and drug product. And you need infrastructure and a lot of science. So not hyper-competitive. Maybe you can compare hyper not hyper-competitive right now, less than 10 competitors. In the future, it could be probably 15-20 competitors. But that's five, seven years ahead. So we're trying to take advantage now to be a very key player in biosimilar. This is our pipeline. It's been disclosed. This presentation is also posted on our website. But excellent progress. And we'll keep making it.
Commercially, we're well set for the United States to market these products. I talked about Metsera-Pfizer collaboration. We look forward to expanding this and very excited, obviously, with Pfizer name, their capabilities, capacity. The volume's going to be much larger than we had anticipated with Metsera. Excellent opportunity for us going forward. Just pointing out this chart is so interesting because every year I used to hear 2019, 2020, the leaky bucket, the generics revenue will go away. We used to do the if you see this blue, $1.2 billion, 2019, those generics products still doing $1 billion today because they're needed product, essential medicines. Players come in, go out. You have quality supply. It's over six years we have lost 20%. That's not bad. You have 4-5% price erosion. But you keep launching new products. Now we have moved up the value chain.
So it's excellent progress. Expect us to keep performing this way and more. Just summing it up, we're a bold company, clear mission, long time. We're co-CEOs. We're here to stay and make this bigger and bigger. And we do want to be America's number one affordable medicines company. And we are well on our way. We're committed as well. And obviously, financial growth is going to be there too. We're very proud of what we are doing. Q&A, I think. Oh, sorry. One minute.
Excellent. Well, thank you very much for the comments here.
Thanks.
Yeah. Maybe just to kick off, bigger picture question. How do you think about the evolution of the Amneal portfolio over the past few years? So how far along are we in this kind of transformation process with what you're trying to do with the business? And if you want to grab a seat here.
Oh, sure. The transformation process is, I think it's 70%-75% there already for the complex GX. Biosimilar, we would have to integrate and start. And so that would be the focus next five years. And specialty is as we make progress, we will share that.
Okay. Great. And I guess on that same front, as the company scales, should we think about the balance of investment across the businesses staying kind of where it is now? Or would you see Amneal, for example, leaning more into an area like branded specialty where there could be some very large products, really attractive margins, etc.?
Yes. So the first goal this year is to vertically integrate in biosimilars, move the R&D investment more from complex GX to more biosimilar as well, and then we do about $50 million or so internal R&D on branded side, which we expect will go up. And then from 2027 and onwards is mostly going to be the specialty assets because that is where it's unlimited growth, and the new ways of developing products with AI, and we've been added for the last few years. And my brother can add more to it. He's on to this. He's more R&D manufacturing quality. I do the rest, but thank you for coming this time, so he's a younger brother, so I gave him a little time.
But I think you can come up with a branded product, not discovery from the beginning with all the tools available and where regulatory has moved in and moved up, maybe in $100 million-$150 million. I don't think you need $3 billion for many of these products. And we can do that. We have 1,000 scientists. We have worked on 400 products. We have a lot of knowledge. And we have added now branded R&D people as well, more and more. You want to add something on it?
Our main focus is going forward on how we pivot more towards even more complex area besides complex GX, as Chirag mentioned, biosimilar in specialty. We have a division in specialty where we are focused on affordable innovation because that's the key. How do we use the AI and other technological tools and efficiency where even the branded product because we believe that any innovations we do should be accessible to everyone. That's our purpose. That's the mission of our organization. Yes, you will see a shift more towards complex areas. We will reduce our GX spend below 50% in our R&D. The 50% or plus will go towards more specialty and biosimilar.
Great. Crexont, it's been a great launch. Maybe just share some of your learnings from the ramp so far. Kind of what's working kind of directionally? Where do you see this going?
We were very fortunate to get a label with naïve patient because we showed the data. Now it's showing up more and more. We still have to convince doctors on naïve patient to start with Crexont. Our goal and mission is to replace IR. I think IR should just go away. It's a 50-year-old technology. Why use it on and off all the time? Crexont should become standard of care. That's what we are working towards. It will take us a few years to get there. Our partner in Europe will go on a similar way. Then it's a much larger opportunity. Then the new innovations will come after that. This is a gold standard. So far, so good. This AI is really helpful. We're able to do the marketing and reach the provider more efficiently with even lower budgets.
I mean, we're still spending properly but we can reach, and AI is so good to identify what's connected TV, whether they watch Hulu or HBO Max. And here you go, Crexont shows up. And what we have seen is when they see Crexont message, it's 6.7x more likely to prescribe Crexont. Now we're talking about General Neuro, which we never marketed for Rytary. So 80% of the patients are coming from General Neuro, the IR patient, to Crexont, which is fantastic. That's a huge market, right? Like 600,000 patients.
Yeah.
And just to add that, we'll continue to provide a lot more data in coming years on Crexont and how beneficial for the naïve patient. So we'll have a lot more phase four data in this year in 2026. We also will be starting another phase four to show the true benefit because we believe that it's a game changer for the Parkinson's treatment, especially for the naïve patient. And it will be hugely beneficial. So you'll see a lot more data over the next two, three years. Continue to provide the proof of what we've been telling.
That's great, and I know you just recently shared some of the initial phase 4 data. What's the feedback you've been getting from that from physicians?
The physicians already were calling us, thanking us, and said, "This is what we are seeing. This is amazing, all the stories." And now it's there. And we'll continue to do another 100 patients have been enrolled as well. So it's a 200-patient trial. So it's sizable. And we're, as my brother said, we're launching a naïve patient trial, also phase 4. So we'll continue to produce more data. And it's affordably priced. So about like $6,000 a year for a patient. That's very attractive. We have very great commercial coverage. And that's why we're talking about affordable innovation, affordable access.
Yeah. When we think about uptake in 2026, just any rough expectations we should be keeping in mind of their revenue or market share for the product?
We're doubling it. We did about $60-$65 million last year. This year, $120 million plus, and market share about 5-6% already at Rytary level. We already exited at 3.2%.
Yeah. And then just on the peak sales, $3 million-$500 million, is that still not the right peak sales, or is that?
Right now, we're keeping it. Let us go through the CEO evolution next year, and then we may adjust, but we're.
A few years ago, we were questioning the low end of the range.
Now it seems like it'll be high. It's going to be higher. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Well, that seems like it's going well. Last one on this, on Rytary, generic timing there, any updates?
Don't know. I mean, so far they haven't launched. So we do expect sometimes this year.
Okay. Moving over to the generic business. You've had a number of approvals the last few months. I know you're expecting a few more in Q1. Just out of those opportunities, what are you most excited about?
As you can see, we are most excited about the ophthalmic portfolio. We have many good ophthalmic otic products that's going to drive a lot of value. We have the entire franchise of epinephrines, so all single dose, multi-dose. We are the leader on Adrenaclick. So we have the entire now franchise of the epinephrines. And we are very excited about the inhalation, the two inhalation approval, which creates the pathway for many more. We have publicly disclosed. We also have the ResVMed technology platform. So I think the launches of QVAR and Albuterol, along with ophthalmic product launches, which is coming up, and otic, and our respiratory depot, because we are excited about the launches, but what it does for the future, because it's always tough to get the first one. So now you crack the code. Now the next code would be much more easier.
I think the entire inhalation, our long-acting depot pipeline, our drug device combinations and a specialty complex injectable. These are some of the products. Sodium oxybate is a meaningful opportunity for us in 2026 also, which we already launched that product this month. These are some of the highlights.
Great, and just any initial thoughts on what growth can look like for the generic business in 2026?
High single digit.
High single.
Yeah.
So that's, yeah.
Affordable medicines. Sorry. If you can use that term, it would be great.
Yes, absolutely. Got to get used to that.
Thank you.
Yeah. Maybe just shifting to biosimilars a little bit. On first, maybe Prolia and Xgeva. Just thoughts on how those markets are shaping up and how attractive those are going to be for Amneal?
There's only a couple of launched already. That's it. And we know how the channel is working. So we're working on it. We're very excited. We have two different BLA, one for Prolia, Xgeva. I think we're the only company that has two separate BLA. So we can manage the products properly in the channel. And we're excited. It's a sizable product for us. It's a huge product by combined revenue.
Yeah. And of those two, how are you thinking about the differences, I guess, between the markets?
Onco will do better than Bone Health.
Maybe just similar on Xolair, biosimilars.
Yeah. That's a first quarter 2027. We're very excited. That is just Celltrion has approval. I think they're launching in fourth quarter 2026. We're right after them. We're already speaking with private label. That's a huge opportunity. And it's a growing market. Xolair as a product is growing.
You mentioned this integration of the biosimilar business. Could you talk a little bit? What does your biosimilar business, if we're looking out five or 10 years, what is this looking like for Amneal?
We'll be in top three. Probably 30 or so products already launched, multiple in pipeline, great manufacturing capabilities and capacity in the United States and India. We follow that model all the time. Dual filing, so global supply, key player for the U.S. And then we partner geographically like Europe. But we're not going to put boots on the ground. That's not the model we have. We'd rather focus on product, science, manufacturing. There's plenty of things to do rather than having a sales marketing in 80 countries, not our cup of tea. And plus, those are great partners. And if you go, Brazilian champion, you got European champions, Sandoz, our good friends. And then you find Southeast Asia, somebody Middle East. So you'll see substantial revenue increase within the segment of biosimilar and affordable medicines. This is why I'm saying we would more than double the whole revenue.
There's huge opportunities, right?
Yeah. Just the cost of vertically integrating, how should we think about what that's going to mean for your?
So we're very, very disciplined, right? The hard work to get to 3.6. We're going to stay disciplined. And the leverage, net leverage could go up to 3.8 temporarily, fine. But it would be a smart deal and a more creative right away from 2027.
Excellent. A couple maybe just move into Metsera collaboration. First, just any color you can provide in terms of conversations you've had with Pfizer and how you're thinking about that relationship?
Albert, I know him since 2012, 2013. We exchanged the emails already. Look forward to working with you, Chirag. And we're here to, I told him, we're here to make you successful and product successful, this capacity. So it's going well. We have several meetings already and more coming up. Chintu and I will go see Albert as well nearby in New York.
Okay. If Pfizer decided to do their own manufacturing, what does that mean for Amneal?
It's giant. They will do their own fill and finish. Peptide, they don't have manufacturing of peptides. They need a partnership, and they need additional volume as well. As I said, we've got the cost-efficient global supply, and plus, we have rights to 18 countries, marketing rights, so we're marketing in India, Indonesia, Malaysia, so we got good countries, emerging markets.
Yeah, but a pretty exciting opportunity for you.
It is. It is. I think it's working out well. It was a right bet.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Just kind of continuing along. AvKare, I'm just maybe stepping back to 2025. Can you just talk about dynamics we saw over the course of the year and kind of how, as you think about the growth going forward, just how are you thinking about that business plan?
Now they're entering into biosimilars. It will take a couple of years for them to ramp it up, specialty products. The generics products keep coming so they're focused more on a government channel, higher margins because it's value-added. They're developing products, investing versus pure distribution, which is like 3%-4% margin business and the unit dose in hospitals so it will keep growing but it won't grow double-digit all the time. Now we're saying high single digit but yeah.
Thoughts on that business more broadly, how that fits into the portfolio? It's been a great investment. It's done well for you. Is this one, I think in the past, you said that maybe at the right buyer, there'd be an opportunity to monetize it. Is that still the thought, or is the thought?
Not immediately. But down the road, if somebody's consolidating the areas, then we're open for it. We've got multiple growth factors. But we love the business. It's run by the team that owns still 35% of the business. So they're the expert. We just provide more products from our U.S. plants.
Excellent. As we approach 2026, can you talk through pushes and pulls? It seems more pushes than pulls, but just kind of.
Yeah. I mean, I have Tassos ahead, late flight. So I was covering your questions. But go ahead.
I'm in my own business. Just as you can imagine, every year there are multiple things that are happening. But this year we're entering, I feel, having been here six years, we're entering a new year more so in a position of strength than any other year in the last six years. And that is driven by a substantial amount of new products approvals we have had the last three, four months. So that dramatically reduces the risk level of the forward year revenue in EBITDA. So I feel good about it. You have the typical price erosion, which we have had the last few years, so 4%-5%. So that is nothing new for us and has been stable. So that's always there, and we always account for that. Then they give new product approvals that are coming in. So we talked about it.
We're really excited about the new inhalation products that are coming in after 10 years of work by our R&D colleagues. So that's going to be an upside. That's going to be definitely a growth driver, not only for 2026 and beyond. A number of 505(b)(2)s, biosimilars that we talked about. So new product approvals is definitely we have the win in our box more so than any other prior year. From a gross margin perspective, we should see 50-60 basis points improvement. And that's a combination of the higher margin products and the operating efficiencies we're getting. Operating, we shall continue to invest $180 million or so in R&D. So year over year, that shall be neutral.
Our operating expenses and the investments in sales and marketing, the level of growth should not be as in prior years because we have built the commercial teams now for the neurology and the other products. SG&A shall continue to go up 5%-6%. At the end of the day, EBITDA for 2026 shall grow faster than the revenue. We shall continue to generate a tremendous amount of cash that shall continue to improve our balance sheet. EPS will grow double-digit. No question about it because our interest expense after the latest refinancing that we did a few months ago and the repricing that we did last week shall allow for 20%-25%+ EPS growth rate next year, this year.
Great. Maybe last question for me. Just as leverage comes down, I know we've touched on a little bit of this. What are you most focused on capital deployment and on the business development front?
Biosimilars is the first priority. And then we would be looking at either branded assets mainly and within Parkinson's or within oncology. And it could be phase three. It could be approved. So multiple choices is a huge opportunity in our wheelhouse. And then keep growing that business. It's a fantastic business. We got the groove. We've been doing it for almost eight years now.
Yeah. So I think that branded specialty piece, that's probably more 2027, is that right?
2027, 2028 onwards because we have enough of our in-house development in biosimilars, complex GX. So that's enough pipeline. We may do some partnership with our trusted partner. But mostly the deals are going to be, and we will have good EBITDA is going up. We will operate the company just below three times levered. The rates are awesome, 300 basis point plus LIBOR or so forth. So that's the discipline approach. And so still, if we have higher EBITDA, the cash flow is there. As equity grows, the equity price, we can use shares as well at some point. So very excited about next few years.
Excellent. We know we're just about out of time here. Thank you so much for all the comments.
Thank you.
Congratulations.