Earnings Call: Q2 2021

Jul 22, 2021

I would like to welcome everyone to Cleveland Cliffs Second Quarter 2021 Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speakers' remarks, there will be a question and answer session. The company reminds you that certain comments made on today's call will include predictive statements that are intended to be made as forward looking within the Safe Harbor protections of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Although the company believes that its forward looking statements are based on reasonable assumptions. Such statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially. Important factors that could cause results to differ materially are set forth in reports on Forms 10 ks and 10 Q and news releases filed with the SEC, which are available on the company's website. Today's conference call is also available and being broadcast at clevelandcliffs.com. At the conclusion of the call, it will be archived on the website and available for replay. The company also discusses results, excluding certain special items. Reconciliation for Regulation G purposes can be found in the earnings release, which was published this morning. At this time, I would like to introduce Cliff's Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer, Keith Cossy. Thanks Diego and good morning everyone. Our second quarter numbers for revenue, net income and EBITDA were all quarterly records. They clearly demonstrate our operational and commercial success in integrating the 2 acquisitions into Cleveland Cliffs, as well as a sustainable steel environment supported by strong and resilient demand for our products. This being said, our Q2 record numbers, Revenue of $5,000,000,000 net income of $795,000,000 and adjusted EBITDA of $1,400,000,000 Should not be our all time records for long. With the lagged and fixed pricing mechanisms we have in place with our customers, We have enough visibility to be confident that these records should be broken again here in the 3rd quarter. Drilling down specifically on our adjusted EBITDA, the $1,400,000,000 performance represented a 165% increase over the past quarter, Primarily due to increased steel pricing, fixed price contract improvements, favorable product mix and higher volumes. Unlike most of the American steel industry, we have been relatively well shielded from inflationary forces thus far Due to our self sufficiency in raw materials, namely pellets and HBI, more specifically, our overall cost per ton barely moved compared to the Q1. In the steelmaking segment, we sold 4,200,000 net tons of steel products which included 33% hot rolled, 17% cold rolled and 30% coated with the remaining 20% consisting of stainless, Electrical, plate, slab and rail. Due to lighter automotive demand pull related to the chip shortage, We were able to sell more tons of higher margin material into the spot market. Direct Automotive shipments we're about 1,200,000 tons during the quarter, about 300,000 tons less than what we anticipated back in March. This contributed to an inventory build of about $300,000,000 during Q2, which along with rising receivables due to rising prices Produced another working capital build during the Q2. Our free cash flow generation will certainly be further increased And the Q3, we expect to generate $1,400,000,000 in cash from our expected $1,800,000,000 in adjusted EBITDA the Q3. These numbers result from continued rise in prices on our HRC linked contracts and spot sales, offset by higher employee related costs and the planned outage at our largest blast furnace Indiana Harbor 7. Furthermore, we are increasing our full year adjusted EBITDA guidance to $5,500,000,000 Our free cash flow expectation still includes minimal federal cash tax disbursement as a result of our NOL position. Given our immense profitability so far this year, we have been able to effectively utilize our sizable NOL balance And we'll continue to utilize it for the rest of the year. With these NOLs rapidly being used, we expect to become a federal cash taxpayer again at some point either later this year or early next year. Our main priority with this free cash flow continues to be the pay down of debt. The level of free cash flow we are expecting has created a generational opportunity to completely de risk our balance sheet and we are taking full advantage. In the Q2, we made open market bond repurchases and completely redeemed the remaining 400,000,000 of our 2025 unsecured notes, the only bond we had that was callable this year. Our debt to cap ratio is Currently at a 9 year low and we have already repaid another $455,000,000 in debt during just the 1st 20 days of July. As the year progresses and into next year, we will be rapidly and methodically reducing our debt balance And we expect to reach net debt 0 sometime next year. With that, I'll turn it to Lorenzo. Thank you, Keith, and good morning to everyone. The best way to understand the new Cleveland Cliffs It is by comparing Q2 results with Q1. Our revenue line Increased by $1,000,000,000 and our cost of goods sold increased by just 100 $1,000,000 The seamless and complete integration of both AK Steel And ArcelorMittal USA into Cleveland Cliffs has generated a new and very efficient business model geared toward value creation. Demand for steel is very strong across all sectors And the strong demand supports strong prices. Q4 2020 What's supposed to be the peak for steel prices, then Q1 2021 And then again in Q2. Well, we are in Q3 and the reality is Demand is relentless. Most of our customers are experiencing record profits A learning that higher prices are good for pretty much everyone in the supply chain. Actually, Some of the customers who were complaining earlier this year about rising steel prices then turned around and decided to That's reality. They cut deals with Cleveland Cliffs at that time and are now just plain happy. Others probably will be unhappy for a long time. Also, As new electric arc furnace capacity continues to be brought to operation in the United States and abroad, The notion that prime scrap is precious metal will be better understood. Iron ore fundamentals are strong as well, keeping the price of big iron imported by the mini mills elevated, And also pushing up the pricing of steel offered by foreign sources. Russia is restricting exporters of ferrous materials, including pig iron, of which They are the largest exporter of to the United States. China continues to say that they want to cut emissions, Which they can do by either cutting steel production to reduce sinter usage or using moist scrap Or both. With all that, the trend on the price of primary scrap is also upward. Separately, investments towards decarbonization will need ROI, return on investment, unless you operate in Europe, in Japan or in Canada, Steel companies in these countries and continents are being awarded general subsidies and free money Like the grants, Canadian and European steel producers are so happy to advertise As they get their gifts and handouts from their respective governments. That's another compelling reason why Imports need to be held in check as other countries take advantage of a totally uneven playing field. With their much worse environmental performance than ours, a major government subsidies that we don't get here in the United States. China is not our only problem. Our so called France are bad too. While all of our relevant Q2 figures represent company records, revenue, Net income, adjusted EBITDA, I would argue we haven't reached our full potential yet. Due to previously agreed upon sales contracts, so far this year we have sold A significant chunk of our volume well below price levels that would make us comfortable. Our most important commercial priority through the end of this year will be to improve these contracts. We know the real value we provide to the clients, including but not limited To our ability to manage complex just in time requirements in several different highly specified products. We also know the unique technological capabilities that we have and the limitations of others In the steel industry, that cannot match what we do, particularly at the massive scale that we do. Simply stated, it's time to be awarded a better return on our capital invested to serve these clients And we are well underway to achieve that. Being the largest supplier of steel By a lot to the automotive industry. We were obviously affected by the supply chain Issues they have experienced all related to things other than steel. Nevertheless, Our Q2 results were actually better than our guidance. Among other reasons, because we were able to take advantage Of the reduced demand from these customers and managed to divert automotive volume to spot buyers All to other contract clients willing to pay market level prices. When stated like that, it sounds simple. But reorganizing both the melt schedules and deliveries of these materials Was a challenge that our team did a great job overcoming during the quarter. Even with all the difficulties in finding available railcars, trucks and truck drivers during the quarter, We were still able in Q2 to increase our shipment volume in comparison to Q1. One thing that should not be holding up anything any longer is COVID-nineteen. Brilliant scientists have developed not one, but several truly groundbreaking vaccines That would stop the virus and its tracks and any current variance. But we need enough people taking the vaccines. With the safety of our workforce always a top priority, earlier this month, We instituted a company wide vaccination bonus program that offers a cash bonus of $1500 to each vaccinated employee if the level of vaccination of their working sites achieves 75%. If the level of vaccination of the site achieves 85%, The cash bonus paid to each employee of the site doubles to $3,000 Upon announcement of the program, we saw an immediate uptick in vaccination rates And some of the locations are already at the 1st threshold with 2 locations Already at the 2nd threshold of 85%. Protection from the virus is just as important As any other safety mandate we have in any of our locations, and we are willing to spend real money to ensure each of our facilities reach herd immunity. In order to meet current market demand, our assets need to be well staffed and well maintained. This process involves preplanned maintenance outages, including the one taking place At Indiana Harbor, later in this quarter, from September 1 to October 15. Indiana Harbor, number 7, is the largest blast furnace in North America and for reference, produced 33% more Hot metal per day than our 2 blast furnaces at Cleveland Works combined. The outage Includes repair to 2 BOS converters in the steel shop and a partial reline in several upgrades to the Black Furnace. Some of these upgrades are related to our ongoing work towards decarbonization, Such as further enhancements to our ability to use massive amounts of both HBI as feedstock And natural gas has supplemental reductant at the Indiana Harbor No. 7 plus furnace. Another success story of the past quarter is our Toledo Direct Reduction Plant. We reached our nominal capacity within 6 months of start up. And thus far in July, we are producing At a 2,100,000 tons annualized rate, well above nameplate of 1,900,000 tons per year, Our timing could not be better. Prime scrap is scarce and every day the price of scrap goes up, Our cost savings from HPI becomes more significant. On top of that, we have actually used the vast majority of our internally consumed HBI in our blast furnaces, Enhancing hot metal output and allowing us to capture additional margin on incremental steel tonnage Produced and sold to clients. Along with the productivity benefits, this action alone Reduced our implied carbon emissions by 163,000 tons during the quarter. Direct reduction and the agreed pellets are critical to the future evolution of a clean environmentally friendly steel industry. Cleveland Cliffs sees decarbonization As part of our license to continue to exist, as you can see in our recently published Sustainability report, we are well on our way to achieving our targets through the combination of Natural gas usage, HPI production and internal usage and carbon capture. There is a lot of talk about hydrogen as a reductant in Europe with little recognition that we Already use hydrogen in the United States through the use of natural gas. Natural gas composition is 95% CH4 Methane and 4% C286 ethane. Natural gas is used in our blast furnaces As a partial replacement for Coke, that means we emit good old H2O when we reduce our iron ore And CO2 emissions are cut by more than half when compared to reduction exclusively by Cook For COOP plus PCI. Also, our direct reduction plant uses 100% of natural gas As a reduction, the total amount of natural gas we currently use in our 8 blast furnaces And in our direct reduction plant eliminates the need for 1,500,000 tons of Cook per year, The equivalent of 2 coop batteries. And we continue to explore and increase the use of natural gas Throughout the entire footprint, hydrogen is promising. Actually, our direct reduction plan Was designed and built to be able to use up to 70% hydrogen. But in order to make hydrogen a viable reduction, serious cost improvements and breakthrough technical developments are still needed. Europe does not have abundant natural gas other than in Russia, so they have embraced the hydrogen route Even with the current uncertainty surrounding the economical use of hydrogen, that might not take them anywhere as far as emissions control, But it's actually a great shortcut for free money and more subsidies from government to companies. And we all know how these things end. Replacing blast furnaces with AIFs is not a solution either. There are technical reasons. No major steelmaking nation runs entirely on EAFs. When producing flat rolled steels, EAFs need a significant amount of virgin material like DGuard, Prime scrap, DRI HBI and even oxygen injection just to try to mimic the blast furnace BOF route. In reality, even here in the United States, soon to achieve 75 participation Of EAFs, we may be near a peak, particularly if further investments in direct reduction are not made. Just don't count on Cleveland Cliffs for that. This ship had sales when we acquired ArcelorMittal USA NAK's deal is successfully integrated both into a single unit company named Cleveland Cliffs. At this point, we are very comfortable using our Deere Great Pellets to exclusively supply our plant in Toledo And our blast furnace grade pellets to supply our own blast furnaces. To wrap up, Cleveland Goose is doing well, actually very well. As of today, our leverage is Already below one time EBITDA and we expect to be at net debt 0 Sometime next year. With that, I will turn it over to Diego for the Q and A. Our first question comes from Phil Gibbs with KeyBanc Capital Markets. Please state your question. Hey, good morning. Good morning, Phil. Hey, Lorenzo, I had a question just on the automotive Piece of the equation, I think the revenues declined there a little bit and you mentioned some chip issues impacting production. How is that evolving as you look into the back half of the year? The automotive supply chain has been kind of tough to read from our vantage point. Yes, I agree. You can only read what you get good information. And they are not really sharing very good information Because we at this point, we here at Cleveland Cliffs, we are no longer relying on by and large, of course, there are exceptions. Some of our clients are better than others. But by and large, we rely on our own assessment of how they are going To pull from the just in time inventory, because they are always from the outside 10 point overly optimistic, but actually they are hedging their position just in case they get what they need and then they will need this deal. But On the other hand, our commitment primarily is with our shareholders and we can't just play with that. So that's why we moved a lot of tons in Q2 for automotive to other clients and that was a good thing for us, Something that you can only accomplish if you are managing a fully integrated and Synergetic company like the new Cleveland Cliffs. So what's my view? Yes, things will get better. They will not get worse. They will get better. But you always take lessons from situations and this Serious things that they put themselves on with the microchips being the tip of the iceberg It shows that the supply chain is pretty weak and it's too complex. So I assume that going forward they will They meaning the automotive OEMs. They will start to manage their supply chains a little better with more emphasis on real things Like being close to the supplier, understanding that short term is better, not relying on ports, it is mandatory. So I'm very optimistic that things will get better for you. Okay, Lorenzo. And then as we look at the Q3, I know you've got Some scheduled maintenance. Is that from an incremental standpoint versus the second quarter kind of a transitory Cost headwind for you all as you have more maintenance in there or is that really not a factor? It's minor. It's Mayank. And at the end of the day, what matters is that all numbers that we gave as guidance, they are already Embedding all this thing. So we are talking about $1,800,000,000 EBITDA in Q3 And Keith Costa just released our full year guidance of $5,500,000,000 for 2021. So that implies another $1,800,000,000 EBITDA in Q4. So all these two numbers Q3, Q4 EBITDA of 1,800,000,000 Set in stone at this point, the way we normally do our assessment And all these cost fluctuations are taken into consideration. The important thing is that a lot of the reliability that The clients are seeing right now and the way we supply from our big footprint is already a consequence of how we approach maintenance. We are taking very good care of the assets that we acquired. And we play extremely well And with production planning and making sure that we are prepared for all the planned outages. For example, this one at Indiana and August 7 with a 45 days duration, we of course already built a lot of slab inventory. And a lot of what you see cash flow is related to that cash flow in Q2 because we have to prepare for this outage, Otherwise the client should not be taken care of. So our holistic approach to the footprint, our way, Our technical and matter of fact approach on how to deal with the assets is a big change. I think it's a very Welcome change to this industry since we acquired the assets that we did last year. Thanks. And if I could ask just a follow-up just on the guidance that you guys have provided the $5,500,000,000 there's some puts and takes. What's the expectation for hot rolled for the rest of the year in that equation? Thanks guys. Yes, using The curve that we have available to us with from the commodities banks of the big banks And we are sticking with the same way an assessment that we used before. So there is nothing That's very negative about. There is nothing overly positive about. We're just using The forecast the same forecast that you and other research analysts probably use in the 4th curve of The commodities, that's of the big things. Thanks, Lorenzo. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you, Phil. And our next question comes from Lucas Pipes with B. Riley Securities. Please go ahead with your question. Hey, good morning everybody and congratulations on another really I wanted to touch a little bit on the net debt target of 0. It makes all the sense in the world to me, but Maybe the market could benefit from getting an explanation from you. What is the strategic rationale or net debt 0 target? Thank you very much for your perspective. Look, first of all, net debt 0 in a cyclical industry It is something that should not cause anyone surprise. That's the very first thing. We I have been in this business for 4 decades now. I have seen everything, the good, the bad, the ugly, the surprising, The boring everything. But one thing that you can't deny, if you are in a position of strength from a balance sheet standpoint, You are a lot better and you are a lot more likely to survive any downs through the ups and downs. I'm not anticipating any doubts, but that doesn't mean a thing, because I was not anticipating COVID either. No, I was, and I was not either. I just try to put myself prepared to take advantage. When others will freeze, I will act. We proved that in 2020 with the 2 acquisitions. We also proved that we don't fight reality, Like when I realized that I could continue to operate the plants, I had to reduce output that's why I shut down Dearborn Blast Furnace, But I could not continue to build the plant in Toledo with people working in confined spaces. We had to shut down construction. So take reality as the backdrop, net debt 0 It's always a good thing if you can accomplish that. We are having an opportunity of a lifetime to accomplish that. That's why net debt 0 is our goal. This being said, we are always open to other things. I'll give an example, Lucas. Due to the stock price performance during the last several days, I am now considering a full redemption of the ArcelorMittal preferred for cash. I had never done that before. I had never Thought about that. But when I realized that the market is skeptical about a lot of things that I know that the market is wrong And I know about the cash flow that's coming, the $1,400,000,000 in cash coming in Q3 is real, the way our prices are Our pricing structure is construed, as well as the Q4, another $1,800,000,000 So I know the cash that's coming in, I can't use that cash and based on the way that calculation is made, it will be a good thing for us, it will be a good think for us a lot of it all. So I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I'm considering redeeming that preferred in cash At this point. So don't feel like a net debt 0 is what we are going to accomplish no matter what and ignoring all the rest. It's Just a reasonable goal to accomplish coming from a company that has been reasonable all the way. Sorry for the long answer. No, that's very, very helpful and I appreciate that perspective very much. My second question, Lorenzo, is in regards to the fixed price contracts. You touched on those in the remarks and in the release this morning. And I wonder just in terms of contract structure, what is on the table here? Could we be Seeing some index pricing with some of your auto customers later this year, is that a possibility Or how would you describe these negotiations at this point? Thank you very much. Look, I think you appreciate that I'm not going To say publicly or in any outside conversation about how we are Actually, negotiate with the clients. That's off limits. So we are not going to talk about that. I would just say that People still talk about synergies and things like that. If there's one synergy That people can't deny that we accomplished our commercial synergies. So we are now a much stronger Commercial Animal, then either of the 3 companies that were behind the new Cleveland Cliffs Have ever been. We are in good shape and we are doing everything we need to do to the business, the shareholders, to the balance sheet and to the debt holders. So at the end of the day everybody will be happy, including the clients. I'm not saying that all clients will be happy. I'm prepared to dump a client if I need to. That's another thing that in the past I am 100% sure that AK Steel had never considered because they believe that if they do, ArcelorMittal USA would go there and grab the business And vice versa. That opportunity is gone. And I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Our next question comes from Tristan Gresser with Exane BNP Paribas. Please go ahead with your question. Yes. Hi, good morning. Thank you for taking my question. Maybe first quick ones on the outlook For maybe working capital in H2, obviously, you had a big deal in Q2, as you mentioned, to prepare for the outage. What should we expect for H2? Maybe more neutral release given the outage. And also if you can touch on if anything has changed regarding CapEx for next year as well? Thank you. Yes, sure Tristan. So the working capital, the 2 big factors are receivables and inventory. Receivables will really just be dependent on pricing. So whatever pricing assumption is used for the rest of the year is the way the receivables will go, because volumes are likely to remain similar to where they are now. So Probably, it depends. Prices go up, receivables will go up and if prices were to move down, we don't expect that. But if they were, then the receivables will come down. So But more than likely you're just looking at flat for the rest of the year on receivables. Inventory, same thing. It's going to depend on if and when the automakers can Pull the additional demand to catch up for the chip shortage. We do have a small inventory build for them ready to go. So if they can pull, we can probably release a couple of 100,000,000 out of inventory. If the chip shortage goes into next year, then that might sit and go into next year. So it's Again, it's going to depend on how our customers produce here in the second half. As far as CapEx, we would we haven't developed our 2022 CapEx forecast yet. At this point, For modeling purposes, we would assume just to use a similar number where we're heading this year. We're heading to about a $650,000,000 number this year. So at this point, That's probably a good number as well to use for 'twenty two, but we will be updating that number as we continue our analysis and our budget process for 'twenty two. We'll make an update in the coming quarters. All right. Thank you. If I may follow-up Regarding your environmental targets to reduce emission, I think, minus 25, by 2,030. You talked about the interesting use of natural gas, but also I think energy efficiency, carbon capture and storage. Between all those options, is there really one that stands out that would enable you to achieve most of the gains in terms of CO2 reduction? And also when you look at this timeframe, is there any CapEx growth CapEx associated with those efforts? And lastly, I think the U. S. Government is also kind of preparing to help the industry to be carbonized. Do you expect to receive some kind of formal help For financing as well? Thank you. I'm sorry, expect to achieve what? Say it one more time. Your carbon emission reduction, 25% by 2,030? Yes, we are totally confident that We are getting there and we also will continue to refine these numbers Toward targets for 2,035, 2,050 we're going to get there. But I don't feel like at this point there is any need other than for press release purposes To be stating that we will be carbon neutral by 2,050 because nobody knows At this point, let's face it. Every single company that committed with that are just telling what people would like to hear. My 2030 number is real, as real as my net debt zero target, As real as my $9,000,000,000 in revenues year to date, as real as my EBITDA year to date, that was a number that nobody could ever imagine 6 months ago. That's how we do things. We are in the United States, Tristan. You guys in Europe, you guys talk a good game. But the best contribution that Europe can really give To the decarbonization of the world, it's not subsidizing losers and mavericks that come with proposals just to keep people employed. So Europe sucks from the environmental standpoint. So we are real here in the United States. We have the best footprint. We have the best carbon compliance in the entire world. Europe is light years behind. Japan is light years behind, Korea is light years behind, and China doesn't even make to the picture yet. That's the reality. People will start to see that in the very near future. Did I answer your question? Yes, kind of. Just maybe a quick follow-up. When you look at I did not understand. I'm telling you that The plants that are talking a good game should be shut down by now. Italy, Spain, This folks, you are in Europe, right? You are out of loan. Yes. Yes, so you know what I am talking about. You know You know better than anyone in the call, but you guys defend. So keep doing. Be my guest. So one follow-up I had was just on the elements you can leverage to decarbonize. And you talk about natural gas, and I It's really interesting. But for your targets, would you say that natural gas will be, I don't know, more than 50 Percent of all the reductions you can realize or carbon capture and storage is also a part to play in energy efficiency as well? Just trying to figure out the different elements in that target. Thank you. Yes. Natural gas is Hydrogen, at the end of the day. Look at the proportion of carbon and hydrogen in the CH4 and CH2 86. Think about the chemical reaction to reduce our war in a blast furnace Or in a direct reduction reactor, when you use Cook alone, producing CO as a reduction or reform the natural gas when you produced a lot of H2 And a little bit of CO. That will be transformed in CO2 only in minor proportion. So Natural gas is the way to decarbonize the steel industry. The only technologically dominated way at this point. Everybody else that's talking about anything It's just technologically speculating. That's the story. We are doing right here. When people are talking about I put $1,000,000,000 in a plan that nobody believed that would be a game changer. So much of a game changer that made us able to change the landscape of the American Steel Industry By consolidating the 2 best mills in the integrated route In supplying them with HPI. HPI that was never considered feedstock for blast furnaces Other than weak attempt by Vistra Ping that I don't know if it plays out or not because nobody hears about because of the Probably that I have just mentioned to you about the European Steel mills. So but look it takes time for people to see things. I am a patient guy. I never fight the takes. So I'm always ready to take advantage of the weakness of investors. They give me money, I'll take it. I'll leave it at that, Theresa. All right, thanks. Appreciate it. Diego, who is next? Thank you. And our next question comes from Matthew Fields with Bank of America. Please go ahead. Hey, Lorenzo. Hey, Keith. Couple of questions on the cash flow balance sheet side of the house. Clarification on that $455,000,000 of Retired in July, is that mostly ABL? Is that some additional market repurchases of bonds? And then how do you anticipate using that kind of free cash flow that you're telegraphing for debt reduction on ABL versus open market repurchases? None of the bonds are callable 2022, so just wanted to get a sense of the trajectory there for the rest of the year. Yes, sure, Matt. Yes, so far the whole the entire 455 went the ABL this quarter. And it's we'll look at open market repurchases from time to time when they're available. Generally, we can only get so much going that route. So ABL is obviously the priority and where the majority is going to go, but We'll always be a little bit opportunistic at times to pick off some stuff in the open market. And then, second on the MT and A preferred stake, you don't have to do anything until December 2022. I guess you have Free option on deciding what to do then before that starts paying dividends. But now that you're considering paying it in cash, I guess that $20 a share roughly that's $1,100,000,000 proceeds if I'm correct. Does that affect The net debt 0 target in 2022, if that's now considered to be paid in cash versus retired with equity? Well, based on our current projections, if we decide to do The payoff of the redemption of the entire tranche of preferred in Q3, That would delay our net debt 0 accomplished by 1 quarter. So we said that we would GAAP net debt 0 within 2022, that doesn't change. It might change, it might delay 1 quarter. So instead of accomplish that by, let's call Q3, we are going by Q4. So what, still in 2022. That's the scale of things right now. But paying the preferred now And spending the $1,100,000,000 that you have just said is just again LG is not fighting the take because If I try not to do it, I will adapt to having the opportunity to do the same thing. Instead of paying $1,100,000,000 I would have to pay $2,200,000,000 because if you believe that we are going to continue to trade at this ridiculous low price, Be my guest. Actually, you know that that's not the things we play, right? You are from Bank of America, right? So. Well, I know not to fight Lorenzo on the tape. So thanks The clarity on that and just a stunning kind of to see where the company is now versus a few years ago. So thanks very much for the I appreciate that very much the support and you are in the bonds and It's always great to have a good partner within Bank of America. Thanks, Matt. Thank you. Our next question comes from Karl Blunden with Goldman Sachs. Please state your question. Hi, good morning. Thanks for the Maybe just a follow-up here on the net debt zero position that you anticipate getting to in 2022, gives you a lot of options and you've outlined a couple of The different options available to you. At what point do you consider accelerating your de carbonization investments or potentially also reducing pension obligations? Let's start with the accelerating decarbonization. We continue to Work with a plan that was put in place in 2017. So I don't know where you are coming from, But we are the only ones that instead of talking about we have already done things. You understand that we are using 54% of our internal usage of HBI in blast furnace, right? So you understand when you put more HBI inside the blast furnace, you are putting more pre reduced Iron inside the black ones. If it's pre reduced you need less reduction. If you need less reduction you are Loading less carbon. So you are, as a consequence, generating less CO. So it's happening as we speak. Also I said that one of the guidelines for the Indiana Harbor 7 orders that's Coming and starting September 1 is to enhance our ability to use More HBI, more natural gas through the 12 years. So that will reduce coal, that will reduce fuel. So What else I'm missing here that you feel like we are not doing enough for decarbonization? No, I think you guys are a leader on the HBI, at least as far as far as is concerned, but at some point you might have an opportunity to make another big investment either EAF or additional HBI capacity? In order to invest in HBI capacity I need to be short in HBI. I'm not shorting HBI just yet. So I'm still pretty much in line. By the end of this year I will have 0 HBI to sell to the market because my internal consumption We'll be pretty much equivalent to my 2 point something medium tons production a year. So they are not going to be even in terms of our internal consumption. So at that point We might consider. As far as investing in EIA, then we're going to need to have to invest with HBI because If you follow my line of thought, there's a scrap shortage in the making, particularly for highly specified products That was kind of ignored by others. That's another thing that I can't prove right now. You're going to have to bear with me. So 1 more year, 2 more years to be crystal clear. But that's the history of my life. And I am not surprised that you are not there with me just yet. And another thing, last but not least, we are very comfortable with the footprint that we have. We are generating a lot less yield than any other integrated steel build in the entire world right now As we speak, I'm talking about Nippon Steel, JFE, Tiss and Crub, Keep Good. And we are going to continue to reduce The CO2 generation, if we're going to implement carbon capture, no, we're not planning to go EAF. I'm not going to tell you what you'd like to hear. And the Goldman Sachs is to move on from these Concepts that are WROENG, wrong. No, I got you. I mean, you guys are doing a lot on a lot of different areas. I'm just thinking about different pieces of cash. You will get in 6 months or a year, 2 years, You were Goldman Sachs. A lot of that makes sense. In terms of what you're using cash for, you discussed the preferreds. Is there any intended use or potential use of cash for pension obligations, some of the acquired obligations, for example? Yes. Keith will take that. Yes. Keith will take that. Yes. Hey, Karl. Right now, our balance sheet has the pension and the OPEB Right now, the pension obligations are shrinking as we speak. Our asset returns are outperforming all other costs On pensions right now, we're in a position now where we don't even we see pension cash pension funding requirements of almost less than $20,000,000 a year going forward. It's basically a 0 going forward. So we're there on pension. As far as the retiree health and OPEB, it's less than $200,000,000 a year To fund in cash, and with a company of our size, that's we consider that to be negligible, And we can handle that going forward. It's a 40, 50 year run out on those obligations. So there's no reason to prefund or do anything like that. It would be Probably not the best use of our capital to prefund anything like that. But Scott, it's a long run out. That's helpful. I guess the one quick follow-up is I haven't seen a gross debt target. It sounds like you could continue being flexible there. And you wouldn't really want to put that out there because I think it Would commit you to taking out bonds at given points in time, but is there anything you can share around gross debt? Yes, you already answered your own question, yes. All right. Thanks, Paul. Thanks. Our next question comes from Lucas Pipes with B. Riley Securities. Please go ahead. Hey, thanks very much for taking my follow-up, Lorenzo and team. And it's somewhat of a higher level question, but You take kind of the second half guidance here, multiply it by 2, annualize it. And on a forward basis with your net debt target, It's 1.5x EVEBITDA. So clearly, what market implies a rapid Deterioration in steel prices. And Lorenzo, I wondered if you could share your views on how steel markets, Specifically in North America are different and how it might be a comparison to other commodities that have rolled over That may not be reasonable here. Thank you very much for your perspective. Well, I don't know exactly what What other commodities you have in mind, but if you have in mind stuff like lumbers and things like that, it's night and day. So it's just not, it doesn't apply. The other thing is that you need to understand A lot of what's called commodity in our market is actually highly specified material That cannot be interchangeable. It cannot be just replaced at will, Even though that's the perception that's sold to the market. One actually one very relevant thing That's coming from our M and A move last year with AKA ArcelorMittal USA It's to show just that because we deal with situations that we have a lot of leverage in these negotiations, Not a blunt force, but the fact that we are in control of things That can be a break for this client because we're not dealing with commodity products. We're dealing with highly specified parts That can derail development. I'm not saying that we're going to put this to good use, but it's real and exists. That's a big difference between pork belly and advanced high strength steels For specific uses. Another point to be considered is that one thing is when you're talking about the ability to do something, I don't really question the ability of a plant or a furnace or A company to do something in a small scale, But to manage a supply chain with 5,000,000 tons give or take a year of complex parts In a way that keep the flow of metal into the assembly lines on time and on quality, That's an enormous task. And knowing that every 3 to 4 years we need to redo everything To comply with new models and things like that, we are working now on things that will happen in 2025, 2026, 2027. So it's a beast that keeps spinning on itself. And then the follow-up question would be Lucas, Why this was never done before? And the question is good, but the answer for me Is that I don't know because I always thought it would be possible and since we did what we did last year I'm proving every day that it's possible and we're doing. But the proof is in the pudding. And again, I don't fight the tape. So I'm prepared for any type of outcome in the marketplace. They like it, great. They don't like it, I'll do something to Be good for my shareholders, for my bondholders, for my clients, with whatever the market gives to me. Thank you. Our next question comes from Sean Wondrack with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead. Hey, guys. Really nice job on the quarter again. My first question, just when you take a look at the 9.78 Are there any other means other than open market purchases where you could redeem that tranche below the make whole price at this point in time? Yes. Sean, they're callable next year. So the call period opens up, I think, in the Q1 of next year. So Between now and then, not a whole lot of options on that tranche. Got you. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that. And then just with the massive debt reduction that's ongoing right now, I know this is probably a hard question to answer, but Is there a rough idea with the potential interest savings to be there? I think you paid a pretty considerable amount of interest last year and Obviously, that's going to come down a ton. Yes. I mean, it depends on where we go. So the ABL is obviously our lowest cost the debt, so as we pay down the ABL, we're saving about 2% on that. And then as we took down the 25% s in the Q2, and that was those were 5.75%. So it depends on the order and how we do it. But yes, you're going to see a sizable reduction. It'll show up more kind of starting early next year than it will this year. But yes, there will be a sizable reduction in our cash interest costs Yes, look, to say at this point that we are paying an enormous amount in interest expense is not really Reflecting the reality of the numbers. Look, we are talking about a company that will have Revenues in the $20,000,000,000 level. So we have one trust that I don't like And that's the tranche that we put in place at the peak of the pandemic. And that one is not callable. And that one is the biggest candidate for me to bite the bullet and pay the make whole. Everything else we'll manage because All other tranches are priced at perfection. Remember, we were pricing At BB level when we were B- We are now pricing at BBB level when we are BBB. And we have no plans to issue and we know that if we issue debt right now it will be very cheap. So, no, we are in good shape. Our debt is not a problem right now. Our debt is good. Right. That makes a lot of sense and that kind of helps me frame on the gross debt side. They didn't want to keep some of this capital outstanding because it's low Cost, which makes sense. Yes. I just my last question, if I may, in the M and A market, we saw Nucor made a small downstream acquisition, think yesterday, another one of your competitors recently mentioned the potential for a pickup in the M and A market. Obviously, you got way ahead of the curve with your transactions last year and that's shown up in the P and L. But can you just maybe provide some thoughts of after you get through your debt reduction goal, sort of what your capital allocation priorities are there? Yes, our estimation was the redemption of the ArcelorMittal preferred is the very first one And I'm glad to see other companies doing M and A. It's good, not To the level and to the extent that we did, but it's still good. Small things are good too. So and we will Only talk about our own plants when they are done. So we don't have anything to discuss right now, Sean. Okay. Thank you very much for answering my questions. Thank you. Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I'll turn it back to management closing remarks. Thank you very much. Appreciate the interest and we will keep in touch. Bye now. This concludes today's conference. All parties may disconnect. Have a great day.