Okay. Good afternoon, and welcome everybody. I'm Quinn Bolton with Needham & Company. I cover the semiconductor industry for the firm. It's my pleasure to welcome you all to the second day of Needham's 26th Annual Growth Conference. Thank you for joining us. It's my pleasure to host this fireside chat with Cerence. The company designs AI-powered virtual assistants for the mobility markets, and it was spun off from Nuance Communications in 2019. Joining me from the company are Stefan Ortmanns, CEO; Tom Beaudoin, CFO; and Rich Yerganian, SVP of Investor Relations. Stefan, Tom, Rich, thank you for joining us.
Thank you.
Thank you. I wanted to start off with some big announcements that you had sort of over the past week, as well as you know, coming out of the third quarter call, or sorry, fourth quarter call, September call for you, around the automotive-specific LLMs. And so the first question is, you announced on the September call sort of this strategic shift to focus on Gen AI, Large Language Models, and at that time, you talked about 15 proof of concept programs. Can you just give us a sense how those are going, and then we can get into some of the announcements last week at CES?
Okay. First of all, thank you, Quinn, for having us here, and also thank you for joining us today here. It's a pleasure being here with all of you. Yeah, indeed, in our last earnings call, we mentioned that we are having 15 POCs, so proof of concepts, with OEMs across the globe. Maybe you have seen also some of our recent announcements. One was with NVIDIA, the other was with Microsoft, and the big event, actually, the real proof of concept, was the press conference with VW Group, with Volkswagen in Las Vegas last Monday. I think that was a big event for us because, for the first time, we could introduce a solution based on Large Language Models, and it's in production, right?
They go live in Q2 of this calendar year, and in my view, it's a significant boost in terms of performance, in terms of coverage, and in terms of real-time behavior, right? So now I think we are an inflection point, and I can tell you that the management of VW is really proud of their solution based on our deployment here. And what we did here, we put actually the best of two worlds together. That means we brought in ChatGPT in a very cost-effective way via our so-called product, which is called Chat Pro, and we have added also our own Large Language Models, right? But still, the core, the centerpiece of the solution is the assistant owned by the VW Group, the digital assistant based on our new AI technology stack.
I think this is a novel solution. We got a lot of attention from all OEMs across the globe, yeah, and it was such an amazing event for us because some of the other OEMs said, "Hey, we need to get the same solution right away from you.
Yeah, we'll get to some of the other demos we saw, but, but yours was certainly impressive. On the VW front, did they say, or can you say, you know, sort of you, you'd mentioned going into production in the second quarter, I think-
Yeah
... of this calendar year. But across how many VW families, maybe a number of models, I think there was a Škoda press announcement this week.
Yeah.
And maybe that gives us, you know, some clue, but, you know, how should investors think-
Yeah
... about the proliferation?
So let me go also brand by brand. So starting with VW, they will go live with the ID.7 and all other EV cars, starting ID.4, ID.5, and so on, so forth. It will also go into the new Golf, right? At a later stage, they will also roll out this solution to cars being already SOP-ed. That's the beauty of the new solution. It will go also into Škoda. There was also, as you mentioned, a press release yesterday and a week ago by the Škoda CEO. It will go into Kodiaq, then followed by Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini. That's the VW Group. So we are really pleased with our accomplishment, right?
It has highest attention at the highest level at VW because they consider this also as a new innovation, because their focus is now more and more on the in-cabin experience.
Are all these sort of over-the-air updates?
Yeah
... to existing models, or will they?
Exactly, exactly
... be embedded as well?
Currently, we're discussing three platforms being already rolled out in the market, right? They will bring in this new solution across all platforms.
Perfect. Next, just briefly discuss your recent announcements with Great Wall and Smart Eye.
Yeah. So Great Wall is another important customer for us, is a big player in China. They're leveraging us for their overseas solution, and with them, we introduced our so-called Multi- Seat Intelligence solution. You have four seats, right? And all the occupants in the car can speak concurrently to the system, and they will get their specific requests answered here. That's a novel solution also from us. They will use the same solution also for their domestic market, so in China, for Mandarin, Cantonese, and so on and so forth, and they will also launch our new Large Language Models via OTA for their cars. The other one was Smart Eye.
Smart Eye.
Yeah, Smart Eye. We are going actually one step ahead here because we are a strong believer in this new immersive in-cabin experience, and with Smart Eye, we did an innovation program. They are a provider of so-called DMS solutions here. We are leveraging their rear-view cameras for analyzing eye gaze, gesture in general, right? And then we can adjust our assistant, we call it Cerence Assistant, with some emotional AI. So what is the state of the driver, right? What is the driver awareness? What are the passengers' awareness, right? And then we can bring in something, "Hey, maybe you are tired, you need to have a stop now, or you need to have a coffee or whatever," right?
This is cool, and we can also adjust the voice, in this moment to the driver. Yeah.
Great. You had mentioned that NVIDIA and the Microsoft partnership that you'd previously-
Yeah
... announced leading into CES. You know, elaborate on those collaborations-
Yeah
... and see what do those bring?
So it's actually also super important for us working with two key AI companies, leading AI companies. With NVIDIA, we're leveraging their infrastructure, their platform for training the Cerence automotive-grade Large Language Models. You know, we have a huge data set, over 70 billion tokens. Yeah. That's huge. I think there's no other company in the world having all this data, this massive data, and we're creating per OEM specific Large Language Models. And depending also on their car brands, car lines, it can also varies between the different types. So and therefore, we need this massive hardware and computer power. Microsoft, that's another important aspect, especially if you bring everything together, NVIDIA, Microsoft, VW, right?
We have proven ourselves that we are maybe one of the companies who can deliver all of this kind of Large Language Models in a vertical market, right? Generating revenue, driving growth. And also here, with Microsoft, we are collaborating on Azure hosting, bringing in content from Microsoft and other things like ChatGPT. I think also here, we are helping Microsoft because we have this vertical software expertise, ranging from embedded, ranging from Multi-Seat Intelligence up to the cloud experience.
You mentioned that the value of your data set that you have at Cerence to help fine-tune-
Yeah
... and train these models to make the automotive experience better. Do you think anyone else in the industry has that kind of data set, or does that uniquely position you?
I think we are uniquely positioned here, and it is much more than—I mean, it's, first of all, it's a huge data set, right? Then, we know how we need to bring in also live data, sensor-specific data, right? For creating also personalized models on the fly, right? And this drives also unique value. What I said at the beginning, right? We are now at an inflection point, right? Seeing really outstanding performance, in terms of accuracy, in terms of response time behavior, right? In terms of reasoning, right? Bringing everything together, right? For example, if you tell someone, right, "Tell me a story about X," right? Of course, it goes beyond the in-car solution, but if you say, "Okay, I need a coffee now," right?
You expect that this car will drive you to the next coffee shop based on your preference, maybe Starbucks or whatever. Yeah. So, and, and this intelligence we have brought in the car.
Yeah. Without saying too much, the next-generation demos were pretty impressive.
Yeah. Thank you.
I wanted to kinda move now to just more broader industry questions. You know, looking at the auto market more broadly and outside of Generative AI that we just talked about, what other trends do you see in the new vehicle market over the next five years that you're trying to-
Yeah
... position the company to take advantage of?
So, so what are the key trends in the automotive field, right? So we actually see three or four major trends. One, of course, is autonomous driving. The other one is electrification, connectivity with OTA capabilities. And maybe the fourth one is, there is a huge appetite for AI-based applications, yeah. And most of the car makers now understand that they have to put much more money into AI. And when looking what is actually the key differentiator, right? That's of course, the in-cabin, in-cabin experience. So, so most of the OEMs are focusing now on a, I call it, immersive in-cabin experience. And you see also what the OEM did over the last couple of months, right? They invested heavily in hardware. They invested heavily also in screens, better screens, nicer screens, and more screens in the car.
So what's missing here is bringing in the content. How can you interact with the content, right? The natural way, of course, is speech, is voice, is multi-touch, and therefore, we have developed this voice touch interface. Personally, I believe also that well-being will play also an important role, and there are some regulations around, for example, driver monitoring systems here, right? And we are trying to position us as the AI platform provider, offering also search capabilities, meaning, we are going to reinvent actually the search in the car, right? So that we have full access, full control about all functions and domains in the car.
Looking to 2024, do you have any thoughts on sort of vehicle production? I think we've seen some estimates from S&P that suggest it's about flat, but, you know, is that sort of in line with your expectations, or you have a different view?
I think, today, IHS says is about 3% growth in production. We monitor that fairly closely. I think we're pretty close to that in, in some of our forecasts and projections. We also get a significant amount of data from each of the OEMs through the royalty reporting, and of course, we're working with almost every OEM around the world, so we, we kind of try to correlate that. But I think the big opportunity for us, even if production stayed flat, is the technologies and the solution, and just to reiterate what what Stefan said, I think we might be one of the only companies at this point that's actually productized all this hype around LLM and ChatGPT and all that, that will go in production within three months, and we're getting revenue from it. It's profitable.
The solution set around the auto-specific transportation LLMs is very cost-effective because it's our data, right? And it supports our current revenue model, where we have a professional services arm, which is critical to us. We think that's probably flat over the next few years because we've made enhancements as to how quickly we can implement the technology. I think Volkswagen took three months-
Mm-hmm.
and then three months of QA for them, where historically, it can take 18-24 months to get these in, into production. But it's an important differentiator for us. It allows us to create that specific, OEM-defined brand experience, user experience that they're trying to get. Our margins there are around 25%. Our embedded, which is a one-time licensing fee for the portion of the technology that's embedded into the, the head unit, and this technology will support both our embedded and connected services. We think it's an opportunity to continue to drive value and higher price per car around our embedded. And then two elements of the connected: one, more features and functionality, helping the price per unit on the connected. But also today, we're in 54% of all cars produced on a trailing 12-month basis.
On top of that 54, today, we attach connected services to about a little over 20% of that 54%. There's a huge opportunity to grow that 20%-21% much higher. So I think this opportunity allows us to increase our PPUs in embedded, increase our PPUs in connected, and then really try to grow that attach rate from these cool new services that these OEMs wanna build into their vehicles.
You kind of touched on my next question, which was gonna be talking about some of the PPUs, and I know you talked about the PPUs and higher PPU deployments. Some of those got pushed out last year. Do you see the start of production dates on those higher PPUs happening this calendar year?
Yeah, we did have some delays over the last 12 months or so, mostly driven by the OEMs. A lot of it's controlled by their software houses, the work they do with the other hardware components, with their Tier 1s. Some of those have gone into production in the back half of 2023, and in early 2024. That's what we believe will support the guidance that we put out in November for FY 2024, and then hopefully, what we just talked about will give us some enhancement to hit our multiyear targets that we laid out in, in November.
Perfect. I think some of the headwinds for the PPU per car over the past year or so, which was the mix of vehicles purchased by consumers shifted to more mainstream. You had the increased shipments to lower-tier models in developing markets, plus some headwinds. Do you think this year, the higher PPU deployments, does that start to reverse those headwinds, and you start to see PPU, blended PPU, beginning to increase?
Well, PPU per OEM, I think, is a good metric, but we don't disclose that. It's kind of confidential about what we're charging each of our OEMs.
Mm-hmm.
I've encouraged our investors not to focus so much on the average PPU across all of our OEMs, across all of our lines, for some of the reasons that we've discussed. We're continuing to gain share across the world, and similar to the strategy 15-20 years ago when this business was started at Nuance, in some of those new... Like in China, we start out with one or two products that have-
Mm
... of course, very low PPU, but then we grow them-
Mm
into taking on more and more of our technology.
Mm.
To me, the important things to look at as to whether we're relevant and we're gaining and we're growing is: are our billings growing, our total billings-
Mm
... which includes the whole service period for the car because we bill that upfront. We introduced five-year backlog a year ago, which we've now said we're gonna update twice a year. Is our backlog growing, particularly over the next five years? Why five years? I thought it was kind of a good planning horizon for investors. We have to accelerate the legacy Toyota connected revenue in Q1 'cause Toyota made a decision to stop servicing that solution. That cash was collected years ago, and it's just been a write-out of the deferred, but due to that decision, we don't have to support it anymore, so that gets accelerated. In honesty, I'm kind of happy 'cause that'll put that kind of in the rear-view mirror, which will, after Q1, our deferred revenue is more pure, right?
Mm-hmm.
And cash flows. We should start seeing really good cash flow generation through the growth in connected, to the point where if you look at our models over the next few quarters, if you look backwards, the ratio of cash flow to Adjusted EBITDA has been below one. As we go forward and this connected revenue grows, we're gonna be well above one in the out years. So, you know, in our targets, we said, you know, we're gonna hit double-digit growth. We're gonna get to kind of 30-ish%+, Adjusted EBITDA margins, and I think you'll see very strong cash flows over the next few quarters continuing into the out years. So I think it's we've got a great technology stack.
Stefan's built a great management team over the last year, and I think we've done a lot of work over the last 12-18 months to make the financial model a little bit easier to assess without looking at fixed contracts, which we've taken from high 70s, hopefully this year to 20. We burned off a lot of the consumption. We've introduced these new metrics. So I think we've done a lot of work over the last 12-18 months to really help our investors, really understand our story and understand the strength of the business.
You know, you addressed a good number of my sort of more financial questions, so I might come back with a couple later, but I wanted to just sort of talk about attach rates. You've been in the sort of 51%-54% range, I think, for most of the past 3 years. You know, as you look forward, do you see an opportunity to, say, increase that towards 60%? If so, does that come from just-
Sure
... better penetration of developed markets? Is it success with the Large Language Models? Because that certainly seems to be important.
So, in our view, the incremental revenue is coming more for advancing, enhancing our offering, what we are just doing, for example, with the VW Group, right? Bring in more features, leveraging all the capabilities, right, and fresh apps. I think that's actually a great business model for us. Once, if you deliver what you have committed and promised to, then you can also easily secure new platform design wins here, especially also when a company like Volkswagen are leveraging their current platform already, SOP. I think there is maybe a small push towards 60%, but it's tough, yeah. And nevertheless, we see a lot of opportunities also for the cloud now, right?
So here, I think we maybe roughly own 20% with connected services, but now with this new hype around our technology and our solution stack, right, I think that could be a fast-growing market for us.
I was just gonna ask you about the connected attach. You know, where, where do you think that goes, and, and how, how, how big of a driver could the LLM-
So overall, I mean, we are owning 70% in total of all speech-enabled car, yeah? So 80% are speech-enabled worldwide. The connected is roughly 56%. Here, we are owning 20%, but now really with this new solutions, which are significantly better what you have seen so far, right, we hope that we can also drive here growth for Cerence.
Tom, you'd mentioned that the switch to sort of a five-year backlog metric, you know, what are the advantages of the five-year backlog versus, say, the bookings that you used to provide?
Bookings, you have to think about, include deals that are 3 years duration, 7 years duration, up to 12 years duration. And therefore, they're very lumpy, right? Because if you win a big deal... But as an investor, you have no ability to take that bookings number and have any idea of when it's gonna impact revenue, right?
Because you don't know when that's gonna go into production, you don't know how long the contracts are that make that up, and you can't really do an average because you'd have to do some kind of weighted average, which is why I moved to the five-year backlog, which says that at the end of the period that we're reporting the backlog, for all the models that are in production and all the bookings that we've closed as of that date, what is our projected rollout of revenue over that five-year period? And we provide it by year, which then allows us to show you what the visibility we have to the targets that we put out.
Back in November, we had 90% visibility to our FY 2024 guidance projections, and if you look out to FY 2027, five years from now, we're up over 50%. And then I think with what we announced last week, gives us much stronger confidence on how we're gonna fill in that other 50% and then the other years in between. So I just, I just feel like it's a much better indicator of how we're continuing to grow the business, to increase the penetration, to increase the price per unit, and then if you take that, look at the growth in deferred, look at cash flows, look at billings, I think there's some pretty good indicators that you can keep us accountable for.
The turns business, it's not huge, but it's been, you know, a pretty steady sort of-
Which business?
The turns business, sort of the...
Oh
... that you would, you know, be able to achieve in a year ... wasn't, say, in backlog unit here. That's what is that average?
Yeah, I mean, we don't convert a lot of, although with the new products, that can get implemented quite quickly. But historically, we've had very low bookings to revenue in the current year, right? That's why, you know, we're at 90%, 'cause there's not a heck of a lot we can do. I'm really excited about the new opportunity to get these in much faster and then to be able to close some of these deals. And he's being a little bashful. I think a bunch of OEMs came up to him after the Volkswagen press conference and said, "We need that technology.
Yeah.
We need it now." Some of them had gone to some of our competitors and said, "Eh, maybe we made a mistake. Can you come talk to us?" Right? So I think it's generating a lot of opportunity, again, to increase the price, to increase the connected penetration, to try to get some of this in faster, the ability to have over-the-air updates, also the ability to enhance automobiles that have already been produced, that we already collected money on, to get some additional money on upgrades and enhancements. So I think there's a number of positives, you know, that will help us achieve our goals.
Yeah.
And we'll be making these videos available of the demos that we did last week, except for the one, the next-generation platform. That one we won't, but all the others, we will.
Yeah.
That shows a lot of the latest technology.
What also plays to our favor is, right, we have this quarterly roadmap alignment meeting with key OEMs in China, Japan, North America, Europe, right? So we are—we know what they are looking for, and we're working closely with all of them together, right? So to give you another story, BYD, we started our journey five years ago. They were really small in automotive, right? And what Tom said, also emerging market, we started just with hands-free communication, yeah, just a minor technology, right? And now they're leveraging the complete stack from us, right? And also, they, they're now considering bringing in our Large Language Models for overseas languages and domestic, into domestic market, right? And there's another big proof for us that we're on the right track here, that we have adjusted the innovation roadmap.
And what Tom also said, right, we have now really a strong management team in place. CTO is coming from Google. The new guy who is running sales was also running at Amazon Smart Car Division sales, right? And also from Mercedes we have Nils Schanz who was actually heavily involved in the MBUX experience. Yeah. And this shows also that goes through the company, and we're making excellent progress here. Yeah.
I wanted to ask a couple of questions just on the two-wheeler market.
Mm-hmm.
I think you've won 9 deals now.
Yeah.
Never, I think, lost a deal so batting a thousand.
Yeah.
Um-
Yeah. So the two-wheeler market is also an interesting market for us. So when comparing to automotive, automotive is in the range of 80-90 million newly produced cars. Two-wheelers is roughly 40-50 million, right? We won, over the last couple of quarters, 9 manufacturers here. Harley-Davidson's maybe the most known one, right? A legendary brand. The mass market is actually in China and in India, and we went live with 5 of those key players. And we are expecting also the 4 others going live. And we never lost a benchmark here, right? I give you also Kawasaki, big player in Japan. They did a benchmark here in North America.
They compared us against big tech and some niche players here, right? And with our overall AI stack, we won it in a big way, right? So we are providing the right acoustics here. I mean, it's quite different than an in-cabin automotive experience, right? Sometimes you have a helmet. In India and China, they're not driving with helmets, right? So you need to put it on the dashboard of a motorbike, right? And that shows also how strong our solutions are.
Mm-hmm. Can you... Of the 40-50 million total unit TAM, can you say-
Yeah
... what, what percentage of that market is addressed by this, the nine deals?
So we are actually at an earlier stage, right? We are monitoring carefully now the progress, right? I mean, they have, we got big commitments from those companies, but we are also a bit careful here, right?
Yeah, we really have to track how they roll those out into production. We're just getting the first royalty reports-
Yeah
... from those five. So I think it's just a little early to, you know, kind of make a projection at this point. But it's incremental, and it leverages our core stack.
Yeah.
So it's,
It's the same AI stack, right? What we said, right? It's a scalable AI, yeah. You can use it for automotive, for two-wheelers, and non-transportation segments, right? Then we have the self-healing platform, learning from the users, right? And in between, we have the so-called immersive companion. Yeah. That's actually where we are marching towards, right? Creating a human-like companion.
I wanted to ask, you know, the professional services, Tom, I think you sort of said, thinking about roughly flat on an annual basis. I think we have it a little bit more conservative than that. But looks like maintaining about a $75 million a year run rate. Is that a pretty stable business? Does it have a little bit of, you know, volatility or lumpiness to it?
Well, yeah, it'll have lumpiness by quarter, that revenue is predominantly recognized on a percent of completion basis. So it kind of depends on how many projects you have and when they, when that percent of completion is taken, and therefore you can take the, the revenue recognition. So there can be lumpiness by quarter, but I think kind of the $75-ish million on a go-forward basis is a pretty, pretty good recommendation here.
Got it. Okay. Is it worth sort of reviewing the, you know, what Toyota announced in terms of decommissioning the old legacy? Because it does have a, you know, sort of big near-term impact on the December quarter. Maybe just spend a quick minute.
Yeah, a quick minute. I touched on it, I think. So that was a contract that goes back to 2011. It came through an acquisition at Nuance. That acquisition was part of the auto business at the time. It was very early days of connected services, so it had a crazy price attached to it. I think it was, like, $70. Can't get anywhere near that these days. It had a bunch of content in it, and it had, I think, a 7-year service period from when the car was produced. I believe that they stopped putting that solution on cars 4-5 years ago. At the time of the spin, though, Nuance had collected all the cash associated with that, and there was a big deferred balance on the balance sheet that came over in the spin.
We've been pretty transparent about that since day one of the spin as to how that amortization schedule was gonna play out. Per the last cars that were shipped with that, the ending service date would be 12/31/2025, which is our Q1 of 2026. So we had projected a little over $35 million of revenue this year, 2024, $34 million+ in next year, and then one more quarter at about $8.4 million. And again, I just reiterate, no cash associated with that. Toyota made a decision this quarter that they were shutting down that service, and we weren't the only ones as part of that service.
I don't know for a fact, but I believe it was a cost-cutting initiative, that the volumes, the usage of that platform was so low that they felt they didn't need to keep that going to the end of the period. You know, they had already paid us. They don't have any right of refund or anything. And so by making that decision and us having no further services requirements, the accounting rules are then you have to accelerate that deferred revenue. It put $74 million-$76 million of revenue into Q1. So if you look at it on a year's basis, that's an additional $43-ish million in FY 2024, and then, of course, none in 2025 and $8 million less in 2026. So it is gonna impact. If you just look at our top line, it's going to have an impact, right?
But again, we're very transparent. You can adjust it quite easily. And then, from a connected gross margin, of course, it'll drive the gross margins up on connected fairly high into the high 70s% this year. It'll drive it down next year to kind of the low 70s%, but then I think on a go-forward basis for connected, we'll get back to kinda mid-70s-ish gross margins in connected, which I think are pretty much per the benchmarks, on a go-forward basis, kinda FY 2026 and forward. So there's really no more to the story than they made a decision.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, just an additional comment. Doesn't affect our business, the rest of our business with Toyota at all. We still do quite a bit of business with them. The other thing is, in the investor deck, you'll see the slide that has the multiyear plan in there. There's two blue rows, and what that represents is the, if we stripped out the legacy revenue entirely, what would the profile of the revenue be for the company during those years? And you can see we're growing at about 10%-15%, you know, most of those years.
No, I appreciate it, because it obviously creates some lumpiness-
Right
... in margins and revenue in the near term. But going forward, you now don't have that legacy, so a cleaner revenue look going forward.
Absolutely.
Taking the fixed contracts down to now $20 million a year. So there's a little bit in fixed contracts, but, but most of the business is gonna be very reflective of, of current trends-
Yeah.
Exactly
Going forward.
Yep.
On a go-forward basis, at $20 million, fixed contracts becomes a really small percentage of our overall revenue, so.
Mm-hmm.
Just a little bit on that, you know, we've continued to take it down. People always ask us: Well, what about the impact on the customers? They are important customers. But over time, the OEMs drive these decisions. The tier ones are important. Second of all, you know, there were two elements to the prepaids. They wanted the discount, they paid us cash up front. If you look at our projections, we generate, going forward, a lot of cash flow from the connected services, so it's a little less important for us, and I just hate giving those discounts on stuff that's already being produced. So Stefan and I are trying to kinda wean them off-
Yeah
... slowly here.
Yeah. I'm going to Japan in two weeks from now, having also meetings with Toyota about the next generation platform here. We are still well positioned at Toyota, based on our Cerence assistant technology for the upcoming model years. They call it MM24, so, going live also this calendar year. And they're also heavily interested in our new technology stack here, and we have an excellent relationship with Toyota, and I'm talking also to some of our Tier 1 suppliers, right, the big ones here, because I think we have a good point here.
Great. My last question, it may be a very quick one. Can you just give us any updates on the Samsung patent lawsuit, patent infringement lawsuit you filed?
It's a good question here. So, you know, actually, I'm coming from research. I love to drive innovation. We have a very strong IP portfolio, but I cannot comment on litigation.
I know these are sensitive.
Yeah, very sensitive.
I figured I'd ask, but,
Yeah
... I'm not surprised by your answer. All right, well, with that, I think we're at the end of our session time, so I just wanted to thank-
Yeah
... Stefan, Tom, Rich, for joining us here at the Needham Growth Conference. Thank you very much for your participation.
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Quinn.
Yeah, thank you, everyone.
Thank you.