All right, I think we're going to go ahead and get started. Apologies, we're running a few minutes behind here. I'm Jason Kupferberg, the Payments Processors and IT Services Analyst here at Bank of America, and we're really excited to have Surya back with us at the conference again. Thank you very much for your reappearance here.
Thank you, Jason. Thank you for having me.
Great to see you. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's good timing. You guys had an Investor Day a couple of months ago. There's very quiet on the macro front, right? Nothing to talk about there. We'll get to all of it. I just wanted to start by having you give the group a little bit of historical perspective because you've been at Cognizant for 25 years.
Correct.
You have seen a lot. Ravi came in as CEO two and a half years ago. Now, just take us through the main bullet points of change that you have really seen be effected into the organization.
Yeah, you're right. Thank you. Thank you again. Good afternoon, everyone. Apologies for coming in a couple of minutes late. This is my 25th year at Cognizant, and I grew up with the firm in many ways. From the beginning, Cognizant is anchored on four key pillars. Call it culture, call it DNA. They are agility, entrepreneurial culture, empowerment. These values have remained constant for many, many years. In the initial years of hypergrowth, Cognizant was going very fast for the first 15-20 years. All these things really helped with the growth. When the growth started leveling out, we came across as a little process light. We knew we had to correct it to get to the right levels of agility, right levels of entrepreneurial mindset, right levels of empowerment, and things like that.
In process, we may have overcorrected it between 2015 and 2020. When we were extremely agile, when we had this entrepreneurial culture from the beginning, associates loved it, our clients loved it, and our clients loved working with Cognizant. They thought Cognizant was easy to work with and things like that. When we corrected it and rather probably unintentionally overcorrected it, clients started seeing us as extremely rigid, hard to work with. Associates started feeling a bit more congested. They thought they lost the entrepreneurial ability, and they lost agility in the system. Now, in the last three years, after Ravi came back, we started calibrating the pendulum towards the middle.
We are not going back to the initial days where we had extreme everything, but we are getting it to the right middle where we are having agility, we are promoting the entrepreneurial mindset, and at the same time, we are having the right checks and balances. Now clients are liking it again. They are saying that Cognizant is back. We are seeing the original Cognizant DNA resonate now. Associates are liking it. I think I have been across all these three eras. I can tell you that we are finding a right middle right now.
That's how you got back into the winner's circle, right?
Yes. Yes, we did. Yeah.
Let me get your perspective also on just, this macro backdrop is obviously super unique, or so it seems. Again, you've seen a lot of very interesting points in time in the macro, right? There was post-9/11, there was the great financial crisis, there was the beginning of COVID when COVID first hit. How does the current macro compare and contrast to those periods in your opinion?
I would rather not compare one with the other because each of these instances that you just mentioned had their own nuances. The macro dynamics were different for each of these crises. One thing that was uniform across all these crises is the uncertainty that these crises have induced.
That's the worst environment. It's uncertainty, right?
Yeah. One thing that is different this time around compared to the past ones is that in the past ones, we were dealing with one-dimensional element, uncertainty. Now, during this time, we are not only dealing with uncertainty, we are also dealing with change. AI is disrupting, or AI or Gen AI is disrupting almost every single enterprise across the planet, almost all the value chains. Now we are having to deal with uncertainty and change at the same time. Like every adversity presents an opportunity, we see this as an opportunity.
You run North America. You run 75% of the business, right? I think North America is where a lot of the macro controversy really sits right now. Maybe just take us through your four main verticals and what you guys are actually seeing on the ground right now in terms of customer demand patterns, discretionary spending appetite, et cetera.
We operate in four markets: financial services, health, communications, media and tech, and products and resources. Financial services, this segment has been under pressure for a long time, but we started seeing green shoots in the segment in financial services. We started seeing discretionary spend come back. I won't say that it has fully come back or there's a trend here, but it has leveled out. Financial services is relatively positive than where it was many quarters ago. Health care, health sciences, as we call it, has two dimensions: health care and life sciences. Within health care, we have payer and provider. Within life sciences, we have biopharma and medical devices. Health care, as all of you are aware, there's a lot of discussion on DOJ, the government efficiency and spending, particularly on the government-funded programs like Medicare and Medicaid.
There is an element of caution in the health care segment of the business. Coming to life sciences, life sciences has a different dynamic. With the tariffs and the uncertainty around tariffs, there is an element of anxiety and caution on the life sciences side. The overall health care segment, I would characterize it as cautious right now. Financial services, relatively positive. Health care, cautious. Products and resources, which includes retail, manufacturing, auto, and things like that, this is a segment that is dealing with the turbulence of tariff uncertainty. Now, with all the retailers announcing what they are with respect to their guidance and things like that, that is cascading down to their IT projects, the IT spend. I would characterize products and resources as dealing with the turbulence related to tariffs. Communications and media and tech, I would call it neutral.
There is no significant departure in the spending patterns in this segment from where it was a quarter or two ago.
Okay. Okay. So if we were going to sort of rank them right now, financial services best, maybe CMT, and then health care, and then products resources. Okay. Okay. Understood. Now, I think when you guys were on the first quarter earnings call, you talked about some of these moving parts at the vertical level, right? And you accounted for that, I think, in your outlook for the second quarter and for the full year. Would it be fair to say that things are basically trending as you expected at this point?
Yes, for the most part, yes. Yes. In the earnings call, we have characterized that. We have said that there are isolated pockets of this. We also said that we do not see large-scale ramp-downs. There is delay in decision-making or longer sales cycles and things like that. Yes, for the most part.
Okay. Okay. Understood. I wanted to talk about mega deals because that's been a big focus that Ravi's had. You'll give us the numbers. Clearly, they're up a lot since he took over. On the Q1 call, you talked about winning a mega deal in the health care space, right? I think a couple of weeks ago, you announced another one. Maybe just give us an update on how the mega deal pipeline is trending as we think about converting some of those into backlog. Maybe give us a little just color and texture around these deals, their size, the kind of renewal versus new component.
Let me start with large deals. When I say large deals, these are $100 million-plus deals. Just to contextualize, when we say mega deals, these are $500 million-plus. Just to level set that. Last year, we closed 29 large deals. These are $100 million-plus deals. The year before, we closed 17. There is a significant increase in the number of large deals that we closed. In the first quarter, we announced that we closed a mega deal in the health care space. Mega deal is this $500 million-plus deal. Two weeks ago, at a different conference, you're right. I mean, we announced that in the first quarter, actually, in the first quarter earnings call, we did say that we were working on two mega deals. Two mega deals. We expected them to close in Q2.
Two weeks ago, at a different conference, we did announce that we closed one of those two mega deals in the CMT space. Today, I'm glad to let you know that we closed the second mega deal as well.
Congratulations.
Thank you. Thank you. That is in the health sciences space. I mean, these are transformation deals. The deal that we closed is approximately around $1 billion. This has an element of renewal, the element of expansion, and new as well. The net new business. It has all three components. The way we are approaching these mega deals is unlock the trapped value in the run component of the business and use that to fund transformation powered by AI, which is leverage AI to unlock productivity in a segment of business and use that unlocked value to fund transformation and innovation, again, powered by AI. This is resonating extremely well with our clients.
Okay. Why don't we probe that a little bit more? I know in some meetings this morning, you were giving some really interesting examples of what you're seeing on the ground where you might have an existing maintenance contract going on. It sounds like Cognizant is proactively, in some cases, approaching these clients and saying, "Hey, here's what we can do with AI. We're willing to trade off some revenue in that historical revenue stream, but you can tell it better than us.
Thank you. I mean, I was just giving him an example earlier, that let's say in an existing client of ours, or let's say we have a $50 million maintenance work. We are proactively going and talking to clients with an AI-powered solution, saying that we can unlock, just hypothetically, $10 million or $20 million worth of productivity from that $50 million base of maintenance work. We are having conversations with the client saying that, "Why don't you fund this $20 million to drive transformation powered by AI in the change segment of your business? Build something new powered by AI that you need for your business." Clients are loving it. I mean, they're saying that if I can get $20 million from this existing base optimized, I can bring in another $10 million or $20 million to drive the transformation.
These are the kind of conversations that we are having with many of our clients. That is how we are constructing these large deals and mega deals. By the way, both the mega deals that you spoke about, they were originated by us. They did not come from an RFP. They were originated by a solution with this construct. We went to client with this construct. Obviously, clients, they do their own benchmarking. They get their competitive bids if they need to. The ideas originated from us. That is how we are approaching. That is how we almost increased from 17 large deals to 29 last year. By now, three mega deals by end of Q2. We will continue to have such conversations with our clients.
As you can imagine, these mega deals will have longer sales cycles to go through the solution and construct. We will continue to do so across.
The two that now, with the second one you've just announced here, those were in your guidance?
Yes. They were factored. That's why we said in the earnings call.
Right, that they were.
They were.
They were kind of, right, you were anticipating, and they closed on schedule, which is good to hear. Coming back to some of the AI dynamics here, it sounds like the way you guys are portraying it, because I know Ravi's on record as saying, "Hey, 20% of our code is being done by AI tools today." I think numbers have been thrown out. Maybe it's 50% a few years from now. It sounds like Cognizant's kind of embracing that change, right, and finding ways to offset some of what in isolation could be deflationary. Is that fair?
It is fair.
Okay. I guess, how are the clients responding to that? Because you're sharing the productivity back, right? How does it all net out?
It goes back to the construct that I explained a minute ago. Clients are receiving it in a very positive way. Different clients are at different levels of maturity to adapt. Not every client has the same risk appetite or appetite to deploy all of it to reap the entire 20% benefit, depending on their constraints and level of this thing, risk appetite. Overall, I think you're right. We have proven that 20% of code can be generated by machines. In fact, at Cognizant, we are doing that. We're not only doing that for our clients. We are doing it for our own internal systems too. We are leveraging AI for our recruitment function. We are leveraging AI for our internal associates' help desk. By the way, we have agentified our intranet.
Oh, is that right?
Yes.
Oh, wait, you showed that at the investor day. I think I wanted to.
Yeah. So we have agentified that. We eat our own dog food too, so.
Okay. Okay. Great. Great. Let's talk a little bit about pricing models, because one of our hypotheses has been that as GenAI gets integrated more into deals, companies in this space are going to have to get a little bit more, I don't know if creative is the right word, right, but flexible with their pricing models. I mean, we've all been accustomed to time and materials forever. I know you guys have always had an ample amount of kind of fixed price, as you call it, in your mix. How are those conversations going with the clients that are kind of ready for GenAI adoption?
The pricing environment is competitive but not irrational right now.
Stable?
Yeah, I would call it. It's a bit competitive than where we were a year ago. It's not irrational, but stable for now.
Versus the last quarter, let's say.
Exactly.
Okay.
I think as we start working on this, as we start infusing AI and GenAI into these projects and the productivity is baked in, I think we are adjusting the pricing models on that format to deliver some of, to pass on these benefits back to clients. That is critical.
Okay. And then what about, I guess, thinking about outcome-based pricing, for example? I mean, are you seeing more of that? Is that challenging?
No, I really.
Yeah. No, go ahead.
I wouldn't call it challenging. That is an increased element or an acceleration in clients pivoting towards outcome-based pricing. It is not significant yet. The clients are still trying to figure out where this productivity will level out, what would be the benefits of AI, and where would AI end up in a year from now or two years from now, kind of conversations. Right now, the pricing models are evolving, I think. I would expect them to evolve over the next six months to one year even further. Right now, they are heavily hinged on productivity and the gains, and then slowly pivoting towards outcomes.
Can we probe into the mega deals a little bit? Just maybe give us a sense of the real type of work that you're doing there, right? I mean, is it falling a little bit more into what we might call BPO in the TriZetto world, or is it falling more into kind of application services? Maybe just give us some.
I think before that, I would say that at Cognizant, we view the AI market opportunity in three steps or three vectors. The first one is the productivity, unlocking the productivity in the existing enterprise apps, leveraging AI. That is the first step. The second step would be infusing AI across the tech stack of the enterprise or redoing the plumb line across the tech stack, across data applications and process layer. The third step would be the agentification. All these mega deals have the component of productivity for sure. Some of these mega deals involve infusing AI across the tech stack. What I mean by that is application modernization and infusing AI, leveraging AI across the tech stack. That could be TriZetto too.
For one of the large deals that we mentioned, they were announced in the Q1 in the earnings call, that involved the modernization, cloud lift, and infusing AI in the tech stack. We are beginning to see glimpses of agentification that is step three as well, included as part of these large deals. Primarily, right now, in the deals that we have closed so far, it is heavily step one, which is productivity, and step two, which is infusing AI across the tech stack, which involves, and to your question of whether it is IT versus BPO, it's a combination. There are certain deals which are heavily IT. There are certain deals which are BPO. It's not.
What's the general duration on these mega deals that you've been winning?
The average tenure is roughly around five years.
Five years. Okay. So five years, $1 billion, not bad.
Average tenure.
Right. Okay. All right. That's helpful. I wanted to circle back on financial services for a minute and maybe see if we can talk a little bit more about the piece parts there, because you've got banking. You guys are big players in insurance as well. I think putting aside kind of the macro and the cyclical drivers of financial services, there's been kind of a structural recovery for Cognizant in that vertical, right? It was always your biggest one historically. Now it's kind of neck and neck with health care. I mean, maybe talk about the building blocks that have been put in place to enable you to kind of recover some lost market share and how you see the way forward in that very important vertical.
You're right. I mean, financial services has been our largest business unit for many, many years. Now it is neck and neck with health care. Financial services has three or four components, like you said, banking and capital markets, fintech, insurance, cards, and payments. Historically, I mean, this has underperformed for us for many years until the last few quarters, while there were macro pressures, but we had our own internal set of structural issues. We have fixed those structural issues by doing three or four things. We brought in focus at subsegment level. Earlier, financial services was lumped as one single BU, and there was not specific focus on subsegments. The first change we did is we brought focus at subsegment level, and we created each subsegment as a BU under one leader and brought in focus. That's the first thing.
Second thing we did is we revamped our sales engine with industry experts for that subsegment. That's the second thing. Third is we started coming up with new subsegment-level tailored solutions for that market. We were very targeted. We were very focused at subsegment level, and we started crafting solutions either powered by AI for that segment. A combination of all of these started yielding results in the market, and we started winning client confidence back. There was also a little bit of a client issue in the market for us, whether Cognizant wanted to play in this segment, did not want to play in this segment. As you all know, historically, banking and financial services clients are heavily on TNM side versus fixed bid side.
There was a little bit of confusion whether Cognizant wants to play in both TNM and fixed bid or one versus the other kind of thing. We cleared that, that we want to play on both sides. We want to play on both. A combination of these four fixed our structural issues internally. As markets started leveling out, as the discretionary started coming back, we got ahead. I'm glad to let you know that we are winning our fair share or rather unfair share of the unlocked dollars and discretionary.
That kind of dovetails to maybe, I guess, with time, kind of the last topic I want to get into, which is wallet share and thinking about vendor consolidation. How are particularly larger clients behaving right now? Are they interested in vendor consolidation? Are they interested in kind of skinning down the number of providers, at least in terms of the largest providers that they use? Have you been a beneficiary of that to the extent it's happening?
The clients are not necessarily solving for vendor consolidation, but they are solving for cost optimization. To accomplish the cost optimization, they're trying to break the silos across multiple vendors, and they're trying to consolidate players to a few who can deliver maximum value and provide end-to-end solutions. Yes, since we play in that space and we are able to provide with our deep domain expertise end-to-end solutions across the value chain, we are getting benefited in that segment. That's part of the reason why we had 29 large deals and three mega deals so far, 29 large deals last year and three mega deals now.
Right. Okay. That's great. Thank you so much, Sri. I really appreciate you being here. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, John.
Thank you.