You know, for like 26 years or something. We've gone through a couple transitions throughout that, but our core business is what commonly referred to as unified communications, so voice, video, and chat, generally used for employee collaboration. Contact center, which is used for engaging with, you know, generally, you know, engaging with customers, et cetera, so our customer's customers engagement. And CPaaS, which is where you take a portion of your communications platform and offer it via APIs for someone else to use. We sell to small, medium, and large businesses, with the vast majority of our business being large. In terms of financial model, I don't know, 85%+ of our business is recurring, and the remaining 15% is, you know, usage or professional services or phone hardware type stuff, et cetera.
So, you know, we have $650 million a year of recurring business. We're profitable, cash flow positive, generate about $130 million-ish a year of adjusted EBITDA, so-
Okay.
Kind of a straightforward, next generation model.
Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So maybe let's just start with the September quarter and kind of the most recent set of results, what you reported. What would be the kind of key things that you would highlight from that, and the takeaways, and maybe points of investor debate, coming out of that?
Well, okay, so we're a company that's in the middle of a transformation, and I know that scares investors. Please don't take it that way, but 'cause it started a couple of years ago. But a couple of years ago, and I'll put the last quarter in context of that, right? So a couple of years ago, we started moving to being an innovation-focused company. So phase one was jumpstart innovation. So we've, you know, we've gone. R&D spending has gone from 9% of revenue to 15, which, because we did an acquisition to sort of spearhead that, is effectively doubling R&D investment. Now spend about $130 million a year in R&D, which is driving a whole host of new products. Phase two is we've completely changed the financial capital allocation model of the company.
We have double-digit operating income. We have, you know, $100+ million of EBITDA, which we're using to delever the balance sheet and those kinds of things. And then phase three, we're in the middle of, which is we're retooling the go-to-market engines around being a portfolio of products company instead of, you know, kind of a transactional company. So we sell a portfolio of products. We now sell 8x8 to a customer, and an enterprise-focused company. And so last quarter, what you saw is revenue growth was minus 2% year-over-year, two quarters ago. It improved to zero last quarter, and we expect slow growth over the next few quarters. New products grew 50+% year-over-year, so the new products are all taking off, and on a month-to-month basis, that growth is accelerating.
Mm-hmm.
And we're seeing improved retention rates in places where we sell multiple products. So under the surface, I like to... You know, I call it a duck quarter, right? It was sort of calm on the surface, and underneath, there was a lot of moving pieces, but really driven by the fact that we're about in the seventh inning of our transformation, and the last piece is that we'll see continued improvement in revenue growth over time. And really, we're at the place now where we've launched a bunch of new products. We have a bunch more new products coming out. So far, the feedback has been very positive, but as I said, we're a $750 million a year company. It takes a while to get those big enough to move the income statement substantially.
Right.
On the quarter itself, I mean, we're really matters exceeded total revenue, service revenue, operating margin, as Sam said. So we actually highlighted in our at the end of the quarter, too, a lot of the, you know, new customers that are adopting some of our new products, so it's in our investor deck. So it's a lot of exciting things happening.
Yeah. Yeah. No, and I think, you know, the macro continues to be top of mind, and so that's a big part of, you know, investor discussion right now. And so, you know, maybe just highlight for us, you know, some of these, some of these positive anecdotes of what you're seeing from, like, the new customer traction and the new products, you know, from... You know, despite the macro and despite some of the concerns that we've seen, you know, from sales elongation and budget scrutiny, and then maybe how also you might be benefiting from, you know, consolidation in this environment, too, where customers might be looking to-
Sure
... centralize spend.
Okay, so, I mean, look, we're definitely seeing ML/AI, machine learning, artificial intelligence, but AI-based products is definitely a catalyst, right? So we sell a host of artificial intelligence-based products, either developed by us, technology we've licensed, or we sell other people's products as part of a combined suite of products. So those three ways, we definitely see a catalyst, right? So, you know, great case study is we recently put out a video on the City of Westminster in the U.K., which some days on the use cases can see 100% deflection rate. So normally, where an agent used to have to take a phone call, they're now using bots to replace all that, and that's instances. I know everybody's freaked out about the number of seats in contact centers.
That's an instance where we actually saw a reduction in the number of seats and a radical increase in the amount of bot usage, which the total ARPU from that customer is something like up 50%-
Mm
... even though they have 20% less agents, 'cause trust me, the agents cost more than our software does every month, and so they come out way ahead on those types of things. So we definitely see, even in this economic environment, the ability of our new products to really gain traction. Video in the contact center for use cases like insurance claims, field support, something's broken, you know, I need this part or this widget ordered, those kinds of things. So we're seeing a lot of those types of activities, customer engagement around SMS and WhatsApp and those kinds of things, omni-channel. So we've got a lot of those next-generation technologies, and when you're really changing the game for agent productivity, it's not an economically sensitive budget item.
Right. Right. Okay, let's stick on that topic for a second, just in terms of the impacts of generative AI and kind of that push-pull of how much you can monetize versus how much you know might be a replacement opportunity.
Yeah.
Maybe just walk us through what your thoughts are, you know, from a contact center lens versus, you know, maybe-
Sure.
Maybe in the UCaaS side, too, you know, how that's gonna impact you?
Yeah, slightly different answer for the two categories. I'll do the easy one first, right? So the labor market for contact centers, if you believe McKinsey's numbers, $220 billion a year. Feels about right. So $220 billion in labor costs. Gartner will say $80 billion of that is available for replacement with, with AI technologies. And I don't know what your best guess is, but if you had us and Five9 and Genesys and inContact-
Right
Combined revenues are, what? $5 or $6 billion. So $2.28 billion available, all of us combined right now are a rounding error of that. I think what we're gonna see in the contact center is what we've seen with technology throughout history, is machines replace human beings for rote labor, and that's what we're gonna see in contact centers, and AI is just the next version of that. In terms of UC, I think what's important for us is on a lot of these emerging AI technologies, you wanna get a full capture. So the easy one to make sense of this is customer health scoring. So if you have customer health scoring, you don't want just the contact center, you don't want just the video meetings, you don't want just the phone calls.
You want the whole picture to be dropped into an engine that spits out a red, yellow, green on a customer health score. And we're the only vendor today that provides all those technologies on a single platform, and that really has economic benefits from a TCO perspective, and it also has technology benefits from the fact it's just easier to train the models because we have all that data in one place, categorized and sequenced correctly.
Right. Okay. So I guess just from a product perspective, and you touched on this, in just the kind of ICA offering, I guess, how does monetization work? Like, so-
Okay. So when you sell a bot, right, the notion of a seat makes no sense, 'cause you're buying one seat of the bot. But really... So what, what the difference is, is when you go in and sell a lot of these AI technologies, they're based on a usage model, because we charge per interaction. So for every interaction the bot does, we may get $0.21 an interaction, and there's one seat of the bot, but it's, you know, it's running continuously seven by 24 throughout. And so what we see is usage is actually very high if you get the use cases correct.
So if you get the training data correct, you get the usage, the use cases correct, and if you get the use cases correct, the usage is very high, and we can make, you know, lots of. And once that's done, it just runs, you know, the-
Right
proverbial printing press of money coming out from the customer. I mean, if your cu-
Yeah,
... if my customers are listening, I'm not taking advantage of you. We're deflecting your cases for cents on the dollar, but it's, it's rapid and it's fast.
Got it. Got it. So shifting gears a little bit, just, I guess, back to CCaaS. You've noted, you know, and the shift to XaaS, right? Like, I think you've noted that, you know, now 40% of the total is-
Mm-hmm
... is XaaS. I guess just in terms of the consolidation opportunity and kind of bringing these together, you know, I guess, where are the incremental opportunities to further drive contact center penetration and to kind of improve that adoption?
Well, if you think about the on-prem world, right? So there's probably on-prem UC is probably 30% in the cloud, and contact center in the cloud is maybe 10%, 15%. So first off, there's oodles of contact centers all over the place that are still on-prem, and there's lots of, you know, hunt groups strung with a ring group, with a thingamabob, which is kind of a contact center, just doesn't get called that. So that opportunity is still the, the largest by far. The single biggest change we are making as a company, look, we're a $750 million a year company, it's time for us to become a portfolio of products company.
So when I talk about retooling the GTM, what I'm talking about is building a sales motion in an engine that really grabs a customer with a single product and then expands out a significant number of products after that. So two years ago, we sold UC and CC, what we talked about here. Today, we sell UC, CC, CPaaS, ICA digital, ICA voice, PCI compliance, and workforce optimization, and add-on professional services. We now sell eight things to a customer. So what I'm, you know, what we're busy doing is retooling that GTM motion. And what's interesting is, when we sell those eight things, when we sell one, we have, you know, mid-80s retention rate. We sell two, we have low 90s. We sell three, we have high 90s. When we sell four, five, six or seven, it's effectively nine, you know, high 90s retention rates.
As we roll out more products and as we get that suite of product sale motion nailed down, it drives higher average revenue per customer, and it drives higher retention rates per customer, which in a recurring business model, starts to become how the flywheel spins faster. It just takes time.
To add on to that, I mean, we have tens of thousands of customers. We have thousands... We have our contact center customers are in the thousands, but we have many more that aren't. We have a tremendous opportunity to sell our contact center and the add-ons that Sam mentioned into that customer base as well.
Okay. You've also recently hired a new Chief Revenue Officer, a new Chief Marketing Officer. Maybe just touch on those hires and how that kind of accelerates the vision of-
Yeah
of shifting more towards CCaaS.
So the previous Chief Revenue Officer and previous Chief Marketing Officer, nothing bad to say about them, but came from a UC background. The people I have today come from a contact center background. Both of them worked at Genesys. Both of them have a demonstrated track record of success. Lisa Martin, who's the CRO, built contact centers at Verizon, sold to Genesys, was just leading GTM at, for Flex at Twilio. This is a woman who's absolutely amazing. She is a killer sales machine, who's been in the contact center business for 15 years. She just brings a great motion for that, how do you win with a single product and then expand out? And Bruno really understands how you market to get those types of enterprise contact center buyers in the door.
The issue we have when we pivoted our strategy, and pivot's too strong a word, when we adjusted our strategy, we sort of had three concerns. Number one is, could we build an ecosystem around the product? Number one really was, would the product work? But yes, the product works. Can we build an ecosystem, and then can we make prospects aware? And it's really number three that's causing us the most kind of headache at this stage. We've got a great ecosystem that's amazing. We've got a killer product now. We've spent a lot of money, and it's fantastic. It's really improving the brand and marketing image that we're not, you know, that UC company of five years ago, but we're really this portfolio of product company.
Every software company, as they mature and grow up, has to go through this, and that's what we're going through right now.
Yeah. Who do you see as the target audience, the target market for the XCaaS solution? I mean, the full suite-
Great question.
I mean, like, who is-
So let's just break the market into three segments. There's small businesses that generally don't use contact center, but use a UC solution, not our target market. We get a lot of business in that space, still growing, used to be our target market, still growing 'cause we've got great brand image there, but not our target market. And then there's the high end, you know, Wells Fargo, Bank of America, United Airlines, CVS, FedEx, you know, Five9 customers. But these are mega big customers that effectively build each instance as a unique, customized solution. We want that middle market. We want 250-20,000 employees. Our contact center can handle it, our UC can handle it, no problem, et cetera. But they're not developers. They're not looking for a solution that they heavily customize aftermarket.
They're looking for a solution that's off-the-shelf, mix and match, where we can become a strategic supplier to them, and there are, you know, billions of dollars to go get, and I think we can achieve relatively high retention rates and success rates in that market.
Yeah. So I mean, just in terms of the competitive set, I think that's maybe one of the more misunderstood things here. So, you know, in spelling out this specific target market, who do you feel like you see the most as competition? I mean, if it's not the guys who are-
It's interesting. Everybody expects me to see RingCentral, but it's actually inContact. Like, everybody forgets-
Yeah.
- that RingCentral-
Yeah, yeah.
Doesn't actually have a contact... Oh, no, I'm sorry. They claim they have a contact center today. Whoops! Sure. It's inContact, right? So the sales arm of inContact is RingCentral, but it's really inContact. That's the guys I compete with more than anyone else, and, and NICE is a great company. It's, it's got certain advantages, not really designed for mid-market customers. It's designed for a bunch of developers, and it's more designed for the high end, and, and so it sort of stays that way. But that's... I think them, I have nothing but respect for Five9. They've moved upmarket, and they're really going after Genesys and NICE at that high end, and I have tremendous respect for them. They're-- That's a phenomenal engineering company. Little bit of Talkdesk at the low end. They've gone through a lot of disarray.
And then there's—I think the biggest issue today, in my mind, is there are 50 people that mention the word customer engagement, contact center, something else. Like, we never see these guys in deals. I mean, Dialpad or Content Guru or something. Nah, man, look, we're doing thousands of transactions per month, and we never see these people in deals. I mean, it's great what they do from a marketing perspective. I always wonder if I should hire one of those guys, but it's like I never see them on the deal desk. So either we have the world's worst sales force, or there's just, like, the press release and reality don't match.
So how does pricing impact all of this? 'Cause in the communication space, more broadly, there's just been this, you know, continued narrative around pricing erosion in the UCaaS space, but then maybe some stability in the CCaaS space. Maybe just talk about what the puts and takes are of-
So I would say we really haven't seen pricing erosion on an apples-to-apples basis. Now, what we have seen is pricing erosion 'cause deal sizes have gotten larger. When I first got involved in this business six-seven years ago, to have a $10,000 per month deal was a big deal. We regularly bid for $200,000 per month deals, right? And then on a per unit basis, when a customer's paying you $200,000 a month versus 10, they're gonna get better per unit pricing. So I... And I think others in the industry have said the same thing, right? We generally see more. Now, that being said, there are some vendors who like to be aggressive with buying business, unbilled accounts receivables, you know, those kinds of free months and all those kind of antics.
But what's interesting is, in the end, particularly in contact center, a great product wins out, which is the thing I'm most proud of, is my $140 million a year in R&D spending and my open platform that can leverage $100 billion of venture capital spending. That's what I'm most proud of, because in the end, if you're running a restaurant, it's not how well you advertise, it's not how good your service is, it's how good your food is.
Right.
We're a software company. We should be judged more than anything on the quality of our software, and the quality of our software is so radically different than it was just a couple of years ago. It's amazing. I mean, Metrigy lists us as number five, but what I cared most about is number one in customer satisfaction.
Right.
People that buy our contact center love our contact center. I just got to get the word out.
... I wanna, I wanna switch over a little bit to Fuze. You've talked about in recent earnings calls just maybe a better than expected integration of that business and the customer retention has been a lot higher than I think you originally anticipated. What would you say are kind of the contributing factors to that and you know what you've seen from that integration?
Certainly, yeah. On a cumulative basis, our, you know, customer retention has been much better, so therefore, revenue, profit, and cash has been better coming out of that deal. So we're really pleased about that. I would say that what we're doing pretty successfully right now is we've actually put customer service reps on the entire Fuze base, 100% coverage. And what we're doing with those customers is, we're upgrading them to the 8x8 platform, and we're doing it as rapidly as we can. And as we do that, the customer satisfaction increases. So a lot of times what we could do is we could give them additional features and functionality for the same price as what they were paying under their Fuze contract.
So, we believe, and it's proving out, that once they have this upgrade and moved over to the 8x8 platform, that they're more satisfied and very happy with the service. So we're trying to put a lot of effort behind that, and ultimately get everybody all on the same platform.
Mm-hmm.
If I add one thing, a couple of years ago, we migrated from a legacy platform to a next-generation platform for ourselves, for UC. We took those technologies and further expanded them to migrating another company's customers to our platform. So over the last six years, seven years, we've built a lot of technologies that allow us to migrate or upgrade a PBX to our platform, and those are great proprietary technologies. I'm not gonna sell those technologies, they're in-house. But we can do PBX to PBX migration, we can do LNP migration, just a ton of automation, user configuration files, all these kinds of things. So that's a...
Like, I think I know there's not a lot of industry consolidation, but if it ever kicks off, we are best positioned out of anyone from an in-house capability to acquire others and successfully migrate them onto a single cloud platform.
Okay, so that was gonna be my next question. Are there other potential Fuzes out there? I mean, are there other,
There are. I think right now, the number one acquisition I wanna do is 8x8, trades every day on the New York Stock, or NASDAQ, from 6:30 to 1:00, right? But, I mean, it, it's just hard. I don't. Right now, I think it makes more sense to not take on more debt, so it would be a cash deal, and, and with my stock trading at whatever, 3x EBITDA or 2x EBITDA or something, it doesn't make any sense to spend that either. So I think right now, it's... The industry is going through a part. Hopefully, people realize what we're doing from a capital allocation standpoint, the cash we're generating, and eventually, if they start remarketing it. But yeah, I can do more Fuzes.
Okay. Maybe more philosophically, just on the, you know, the spend from Fuze and putting all of that back into R&D and really amping up the R&D resources that you're able to have. I guess, how has that gone, and then kind of what benefits have you seen from-
I mean, it's amazing, right? So it is the catalyst that allowed us to transform the engine of the company, right? So adding Fuze, we added 21 Scrum teams. We kept all of them. We kept almost... You know, our attrition in the Fuze engineer base was less than our regular attrition at the time. So we kept all the engineering, we put all that engineering onto roadmap. So I mean, it's the wizardry of what, you know, and I give credit where credit is due, the private equity guys do really well, right? Is they can-- When they bring two companies together, Fuze was spending R&D dollars to build a contact center that we already had, right? So we took all their money, stop spending on that, we already have that, and spend it on out-accelerating our contact center.
And that allowed us to double or triple the innovation capacity. Because if you, if you think about how R&D money gets spent, there's always some maintenance spending, new OSs, new security stuff, all that kind of stuff. And then anything that's left over is innovation spending. But when you add money at the top, it goes straight to innovation because your maintenance is already covered. And so it allowed us... I'm sorry. That's why I, I think we can get a virtuous cycle at some point in the future if we acquire something else, to add even more R&D and get further acceleration in our core business.
Okay, that's great. We do have the ability to take questions from the audience, so if there's anybody who has a question, we can take those now. If there's any hands. Go ahead.
I'm with you. It seems like press releases have gotten cheaper over the last decade. If you look at the Gartner Magic Quadrant, of the players that meet the criteria to be in there, all of them have existed for at least a decade in the contact center space and have spent at least $1 billion developing the software. Look, I've been in mobile security, I've been in communications stuff. The contact center software is some of the most complex mission-critical software I've ever seen. When we talk about five nines reliability, we mean NASA-level reliability. I would tell you, a contact center, in my mind, requires 5-10 years and $1 billion of investment to build what we've been in the business for 14 years and spent in excess of $1 billion.
Five9 for sure has, inContact did, you know, Talkdesk has. That's what it requires to, to build... And, and think about it, I mean, Avaya would be kind of the on-prem gold standard of a contact center because it's just AT&T, right? But they were in this business for what, 80 years, 90 years?... There's a feature set and the capabilities out there, and then that was voice-only. Think about in a world of WhatsApp, and, and, SMS messaging, and Twitter, and Facebook, and social, and contact centers are highly fragmented channels, omni-channel, highly complex queuing engines, and there is such innovation white space to go.
I think to build what we had two years ago takes you $1 billion and 5-10 years, and I think to build what we're gonna have next year is gonna take you $1.5 billion and 10 years.
Worried about like-
Well, Amazon Chime, I hear, just did a big layoff. So, do I worry about Google? Not at all. I mean, they've not really—they don't have anything in the contact center space. They have a deal with UJET, that as far as I can tell, based on the number of resumes I get, isn't going anywhere. And in Amazon's case, what Amazon did was they took the product they built in-house for themselves and tried to sell it, and I think if you're trying to build a replica of Amazon, it may work, but most businesses are not a direct replica of Amazon. And I... It just, it's not my sense. Where Amazon concerns me a little bit is what they are successful at, is ELAs.
So they come in, and they say, "Okay, you need to spend $50 million a year with AWS, and you know, Chime or Connect, it counts as part of your $50 million bucks. It's not a good product, doesn't really do what you need it to do, but counts in your $50 million." And I've, you know, we've been competing against ELAs for decades, and we'll continue to compete. I think if we build a great product for that mid-market customer, we'll do just fine. I mean, Ryanair uses us in our contact center, Frontier Airlines, cities like Westminster and London Borough. Acer uses us. I mean, we have big, huge companies that use us for contact centers.
Do you have players? Do they share or-
Let me, let me break that into two categories. So if you look at, the on-prem world of UCaaS, Avaya, and, and my numbers may be dated, don't take them as, like, I know anything. I know as much as you do, but 89 million seats, NEC, 78 million seats, Cisco fifty-three million seats, and Mitel, 37 million seats, right? As far as I can tell, none of them have a true cloud product. Cisco's probably the closest with their Webex Phone, and by close, I mean 37 zip codes away. They don't... Like, they're not... Okay, so that's the UCaaS, the, the UC world, and they're all share givers. The contact center world is interesting. Genesys has a, a very intriguing product for what it's good for, right? I don't want to say anything bad about those guys.
I view them in five nines and really the upper end of NICE inContact competitive. Their, their product was built for United Airlines and Bank of America and very large, very complex contact centers, and they are the masters of that. That is a business I understand, but I have no desire to compete in. God, God bless them, but I view it as a Ferrari market. Ferraris or Porsche, whatever your... Great market, great choice, not my, not my thing. I'm a Camry guy. Non-existent. I mean, not,
You know?
I mean, they've gone bankrupt twice. They got debt overhangs. They got 6 million seats of contact center. I've not ever seen a cloud product in a bake off.
Are we-
Okay, so are you talking about an AGI? Like,
You know, like people call and-
Okay, 'cause-
Like a Delta person, you know?
'Cause I can build you... Today, we have our AI voice bots in beta today, but if you have, like, specific use cases, where's my luggage? I need to reschedule a plane flight, et cetera, et cetera, I can handle that today. And where AI is really good is the natural language processing, 'cause where's my luggage gets asked 100 different ways, and we can calculate that all those 100 different ways actually is, "Where's my luggage?" That we can build you today. The idea that you'll talk to a bot that feels like a real human being and can answer all the questions of a real human being, I don't know, two decades, three decades. And I don't mean that pejoratively, I mean, seriously.
If you look at it today, 30%-40% of the cases that hit a contact center are run-of-the-mill, and that's what bots will handle great. 30%-50% of the cases in a contact center, I need a new flight, you know, I'm stuck in an airport, I need a voucher, I need this, I need this, I need my luggage found, I need it delivered to me. Like, no bot's gonna handle that anytime soon. I think the next step is, right now we've got natural language processing, transcription, language translations, those kinds of things, we're is what we're focused on. Agent assist is the next big area, case deflection is a big area, and then after that, we'll start to have agent productivity increases.
I want this call to be transcribed, categorized, summarized, saved to the CRM system, a copy sent to the customer and everything, and I don't want to do any... I want a bot to do all that. So it'll be kind of bot-driving bot type stuff next, and that's a couple of years away. We've got AI-based summarization and categorization in beta right now, but that just saves it to the CRM system. So instead of reading a 30-page transcript, you've got a three-paragraph summary of the call. But, you know, the next stage of all those follow-on things will take a couple of years.
... Another question over here.
Well, the first thing I'd like to do is I'd like to partner. So as I mentioned earlier, the venture capital community has put $100 billion out there around this space, and I've refactored my contact center with web hooks and APIs and UI, UX integration capabilities to integrate all those things together. And so—and then once I start to see what's selling and what's not, and what's working, then I think we'll start to invest more. My next big thing is, we've got a product that shortly will go to beta that really blurs the line between UC and CC. So there's, there's. I have one minute 10. There's a contact center, right? You're an agent, you're in a queue, a case comes to you, you answer that queue, that's your job.
You get paid $18.31 in the United States last year, one-third below the median wage, and your boss deals with 40% turnover. That's that job today. And then you've got UC, which is generally your white-collar worker and your sort of knowledge worker. But there's a whole space in the middle where there's a blurring of the lines, and we're super well positioned to go after that from a use case. Nurses, people on call, doctors, those kinds of things, where it blurs the two, and we'll have a product coming to beta here shortly that really blurs the lines between those two and pushes the fact that we're the company with one platform with UC and CC together. This isn't a slimmed-down version of a contact center play, and it isn't some scaled-up version that some two-bit UC vendor is trying to do.
It's really that hybrid product. That'll be the next area that I think kind of around that contact center space, as you'll see us in.
So I think we're just about up on time, maybe one minute left. Just anything you would, you would say in closing, and then maybe just any thoughts on kind of as we head into year-end and into 2024, just any thoughts on what, you know, next year might look like and what signs of success you're looking for?
Well, I mean, I would just reiterate what I kind of said earlier, right? We're a company in transition, right? So we've driven the innovation engine up. New products are growing 50%+ year-over-year. They will become a material part of the income statement. We have an awesome asset allocation model. We're generating $130 million of EBITDA, so the company itself is trading at whatever, 2.5x EBITDA or something right now from a... Or I guess EV will be trading at, like, 5x EBITDA right now. So really, the last step is to reaccelerate revenue growth, and I think what you'll see next fiscal year, so over the next five-six quarters, is the reacceleration of revenue growth, driven on the backs of new products.
Got it. Okay, I think we're up on time. Kevin, Sam, thanks for being here.
Thank you.
Thank you.