I got some numbers and things I got to report. I'm still on the book.
Oh, don't even worry about it. Don't even worry about it.
Okay. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Chris Pierce with the Needham Research team covering transportation technology stocks. It's my pleasure to welcome Paul Dobson, CFO of EVgo, to an afternoon session here at the 27th Annual NEDM Growth Conference. Paul, thanks for coming. Appreciate the time this afternoon.
Thank you.
Yeah. I'd love to start just kind of, you know, you were announced as EVgo's CFO in September, took the job, joined it officially in October. Kind of what are your first thoughts, first impressions? Or I guess even before first impressions, what made the job interesting? Kind of first impressions, you know, three or four months in now.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, EVgo is a really great company. When I was first looking at, I originally came from Cleantech, or came from here from Cleantech, a company Ballard Power, which is hydrogen fuel cells. So I knew a little bit about the space and Cleantech. I've also worked in large utilities. I've worked in deregulated energy companies, and I've worked in banking as well, primarily in finance and operational roles. So when I was looking at EVgo, one of the first things that struck me, you know, I want to stay in Cleantech. I haven't been in there for very long. I really want to stay in it. So I really believe in the mission, you know, with EVs and the adoption of EVs, and what's critical for the adoption of EVs is to have charging infrastructure out there.
So that made a lot of sense to me. And then when I look at electric vehicles and just think, you know, broadly about them, the new models that are coming out, the technology advancements, the battery advancements, you know, the performance of the cars, I mean, they're so, you know, getting better and better, I guess I would say. And it really feels like with EVs that we've kind of moved beyond the primary reason to get one is the environmental reason to these are just really great, long-lasting cars with, you know, low cost of operation, lots of choices. And so, you know, I can really see how EVs are going to be, you know, here to stay. EVgo has put out a lot of information about the business model, how it makes money, what the key drivers are.
So there was a lot, as somebody who's looking at the company. There's a lot of information there to say, okay, I can understand how this business is going to make money, what it needs to do to scale. That was all, you know, pretty obvious to me. So when I put all that together, I said, well, this seems to be a fantastic opportunity. I looked at the background of the people who were joining there as well and said, this all adds up for me.
Okay. And on the, you know, the charging experience, have you firsthand experience, you know, before you joined EVgo? You know, do you drive an EV? Have you experienced what's out there as far as charging?
I'm in the market for an EV, so anybody who's got suggestions who drives an EV, everybody's got a favorite. I've heard lots about Tesla and Lucid often comes to the top. I just think there's a lot of great deals out there right now. There's really more of a range of EVs for, you know, whatever it is you're looking for, and there's a lot of good, you know, pricing and lease options right now, so I've been looking at like an Equinox, for example, Chevy product. It's sort of like a small SUV, holds five people. It's got all the latest technology in it, but, you know, you can get a lease with a little bit of money down for 24 months for under $200 a month, which is, you know, pretty attractive.
I mean, if that's available for a wide range of people, I think that's awesome. I do have a hybrid. I've had a hybrid for three years. And I tend to roll. It's got about 35 miles of range. So I tend to roll around most of the time on the battery, probably 90% of the time, you know, to work and back and that sort of thing. So I have been able to use it to go and check out some of the other charging offerings in my area. Unfortunately, we don't have EVgo where I live. And since it's a hybrid, it doesn't do fast charging, but you still get a sense of the, you know, the interface and how those work. So we have, when you do a Google search and say, just find me a charger, ChargePoint often comes up.
There seems to be lots of them. They're not fast chargers. They're Level 2 chargers. Lots of them around signing up seem to be okay, being able to pay for it seem to be all right. But one thing I noticed with them and a few others as well is there's like a surcharge. So you go and charge, you know, for, you know, half an hour or an hour. It doesn't charge very fast. And then there's some sort of like a $10 or $15 surcharge on top of it. So to me, that's not a great customer experience. Like the whole proposition is out the door. I don't have a Tesla. I know lots of people who do have Teslas.
A lot of the Uber drivers, I always ask them, you know, most of a lot of them are driving Teslas now, ask them how they like it. Everybody, you know, it's very hard to find a person who doesn't love their Tesla. Even the charging experience is fantastic. The only fallback I ever hear against Tesla is that there's just not enough chargers. There's not enough fast chargers out there, right? People want to charge and they want to charge quickly, but they can't get to a, you know, a Tesla Supercharger or they could be backed up as well. The experience with them is pretty good.
Okay. So that actually like segues nicely to EVgo's customer proposition in fast charging. Sort of, you know, what, I guess at a highest level, what is the, you know, the core competency or what are you offering customers that, you know, regular drivers, Uber drivers, or rideshare drivers?
Yeah.
How do you bucket these drivers and how do you attack them and get them to use EVgo chargers?
So we've got basically three segments of customers, how we think about them. So there's retail customers like you and me. So anybody who wants to go up and get charging from our chargers. There's commercial drivers, so like Uber and Lyft, what we call rideshare. So, you know, they need a place to charge. They need to get out there quickly. They're running a business. So having fast charging available for Uber and Lyft is critical for their business model. And the third one is new EV owners. So somebody who's bought a new Cadillac or a Nissan or a Toyota, they often get, you know, free charging or a discount on charging with certain networks. And so, you know, they've got them sort of segregated in that way and priced accordingly.
So an Uber and a Lyft driver, for example, might have a slightly better price than retail customers. Kind of like something's been negotiated by Uber for the benefit of all of their drivers.
Okay. Perfect. And just for investors in the room, you know, how many stalls does EVgo have roughly right now? And sort of what's the trajectory? Actually, before we talk about the trajectory, can you talk about your partners on these stalls? Pilot Flying J, GM, and then EVgo, you know, proper stalls. What's the right way to think about the segmentation?
Sure. Yeah, so General Motors is a partner of ours for fast chargers all across the U.S. The original proposal with them was to install about 2,800 stalls across the U.S., which are kind of co-branded or they've got the GM branding on it. In exchange, GM pays us a certain amount to defray some of the capital cost, and we're about 2,000 stalls through that, roughly at the end of the year, at the end of 2024, roughly. We've also announced with General Motors that we're going to be doing 400 larger sites, what they call flagship destinations, which have, you know, more like up to 20 stalls. They have more amenities at these locations. They have a canopy, you know, more branding, so that's sort of an enhancement to that relationship, so GM is in the business clearly of selling cars and selling.
They made a big investment in EVs. To have more EVs and to sell more EVs, they need to make sure that there's charging available for their customers. So they have relationships with other companies as well. But we've had a pretty good relationship with General Motors and look forward to that continuing. With the Pilot Flying J, that's a different business model for us. So Pilot Flying J, everybody with the truck stops across the U.S. So we've contracted with them to install. We sell them the equipment. We sell them. We make a margin on the construction and install chargers at their various sites. So we don't earn the economics from the stall. They do, but we make a margin on selling the equipment and selling and the construction.
And then we also have a relationship, an ongoing relationship with them in revenue stream for maintenance, operations and maintenance as well. So that's how we think about them. That business of sort of reselling or selling equipment and construction really isn't a strategic focus of ours going forward. It's very good revenue. It's a very good margin for us. But there's more value and recurring revenue and recurring cash flows in the owned and operated space.
So let's talk about, you know, the growth you've had in the owned and operated space and then the DOE loan and what that can do for growth in the owned and operated space. You know, just what's been communicated to investors? How do you think about where to put these chargers? And how should investors think about, you know, economics on these stalls?
Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, a lot to unpack in that. And again, for everybody, there's lots on our website about the economics of the business and our projected stall rollout and that sort of thing. So what we've seen, you look at the economics of a stall, you really got to think about the throughput. So how much energy is going through those stalls? And the main factors that are involved in that are, well, how much is it being utilized? So the utilization rate. And then what's the charge rate of the vehicle? How much energy can that vehicle take? And you take those factors, multiply by 24 hours a day, and you get to a volume or a throughput per stall per day. And that's about, at Q3, it was about 255-257 kilowatt hours per stall per day.
So times 365 days, times about our price is about $0.55 a kilowatt-hour. That's how you get to revenue, right? What we've seen, that's sort of the average across the network. So the poorer performing as well as the top performing. The top performing stalls have got more than double that throughput, you know, more like 580 kilowatt-hours. So higher utilization and slightly higher charge rate. What we see over time is those numbers are going to grow. So the charge rate is going to grow. It's a factor of, well, what type of cars are doing the charging, right? So as new models roll out, they can accept higher charges. So the charge rate is going to go up.
We expect the charge rate is going to go from where it is today, about 48 kilowatts to something like 80 kilowatts on average across the network. And the utilization rate is going to increase as well. And so that's going to drive the total throughput per stall, you know, between 450 and 500 kilowatt hours per day. Again, times 365 days, times $0.55, you get to a revenue around, you know, $90,000-$105,000, you know, somewhere in that range per stall per year, right? And then we take our energy costs off of that and our, you know, maintenance costs for the stalls, the taxes, there's some demand charges and some other fixed costs. And you get to a gross margin of about 50%. So $100 million, let's call it $100,000 per stall, 50% gross margin. That's on a single stall basis, right?
With the DOE loan, everybody kind of says, well, that's a good margin. I can see if you scale that, you can, you know, spread that across your fixed costs and see the cash flow generation potential of the business. But you need to grow stalls. So if we're at, you know, 3,500 today in terms of stalls, 3,600 at the end of Q3, I should say. We're at about 4,100 stalls at the end of the year. So, you know, the DOE loan is going to allow us to install another 7,500, you know, a minimum of 7,500 stalls over the next five years. So that'll take us to roughly 11,000 stalls, let's call it, right? So you can quickly see then how the whole business starts to scale up. So the revenues scale, you know, at a much, and the margins scale at a much faster rate.
Fixed costs, you know, are going to increase, but at a much slower rate. And that's going to produce, you know, well over $1 billion of revenue and probably somewhere between $300 million and $400 million of Adjusted EBITDA in 2030. So when we explain that to everybody, they say that makes a lot of sense. How are you going to pay for it? How are you going to fund that? And so now the DOE loan, which we announced for $1.25 billion in December, you know, finalized it, it's not a conditional commitment, finalized that deal, that loan is how we pay for it. So we've now taken the funding question off the table. We can fund that growth without having to add any equity or, you know, need to add any equity, you know, to the equation.
Can you go a little deeper on, you talked about the two metrics that lead to throughput, utilization and charge rate. Like, what are some things that you can do to drive higher utilization at these sites? What are you seeing at the top 15 sites? And then, is it as simple as OEMs make cars that charge faster to drive a better customer experience? So, there's more turnover of vehicles at these sites? Like, what's the right way to talk about it?
Yeah. So our utilization rate in Q3 was 22%. Our top 15% of stalls is about 46%, right? So 46% of the time that stall is being used. And you think about 24 hours in a day and, you know, the early hours and early morning, it's, you know, there's a lot of.
Yeah. It's never going to be 100%.
Yeah. It's never going to be, well, you never want it to be 100% because it's all going to, you're going to start to impact the customer experience, right? So our target, we want to make sure that there's enough stalls for people to use. Our target is to get utilization to, you know, 23%-26% we think is a reasonable number. Charge rate, I think was the other part of your question. Like how do we influence that or how do we influence how customers use it? So the whole EV stock, you know, cars that are available out there, all the newest models are coming out, even the Equinox that I was talking about are able to be, are able to use the latest battery technology, able to use a fast charger, right?
So somebody can charge up an Equinox from 20%-8 0% in, you know, 30 minutes, less than 30 minutes probably, right? So it works really well with their, you know, you know, they're going to go shopping or the bank or whatever, they can charge up that fits perfectly with them, not wasting, they're not wasting time. So the whole stock of EVs is moving in that direction. And that's what's going to influence the charge rate more than anything. We're also a lot more proactive in our marketing and sort of smarter and strategic when we put new stalls in place, making EV owners aware that there's one there. It's a fast charger. When somebody has used it, but we haven't seen them in a while, you know, touching base with them and saying, hey, incentivizing them to go back and using it as well.
Putting those types of incentives to make sure that it drives performance and usage is a key part of, you know, the marketing that we do. And I think it's been successful because when you look at the chargers that we put in, say, in 2023 and the utilization of those chargers and the throughput of those chargers, higher than the ones we put in in 2022, higher than the ones we put in in 2021 for the same amount of time, right? So we're continuously learning and interacting with customers and making sure they're available. Our, what we call one and done rate. So if somebody can come up to a charger, plug in and it all works, everything all works, it's like 95%. And our goal is to get that, you know, much higher, closer to 99%, right?
So we want to make sure that customer interaction, there's no reason for them not to come and, you know, having chargers down is a very, very frustrating thing for them.
What, you know, if investors ask about the difference between the top 50 performing sites and the other 85, is it that those chargers have been in the ground longer? Is it those chargers are in higher rideshare areas? Like, what's the right way to think about and what brings the other 85 up to, you know, not necessarily in line, but how do you move the whole network utilization higher?
Yeah. Well, as we add more stalls each and every year, so if we, you know, in our webinar, the DOE loan, we said we're going to add 800, between 750 and 850 stalls in 2025, owner operated. And that's going to increase and that's going to be smarter about where we put those stalls. The whole algorithm and capability we have and modeling that we have to select the sites, you know, all the characteristics that go into it, including things like how many EV owners we think are in the area, is it a growing area, what's the utility connection like, right? Is this a utility that you can get a connection in a reasonable period of time or is it going to be an onerous, costly process?
You know, being much more, much smarter about all of that and learning as we go is going to just make the site selection that much better. We've already penciled in 30,000. There's 30,000 sites in the U.S. that we've identified that meet all of our criteria, including our financial criteria and generate double-digit returns. So the DOE loan allows us to grow by, you know, between 7,500 and 10,000 stalls within that period of time. We've identified 30,000 sites that we could pick today we would be happy to go to, right? With partners, most of them, two-thirds of them, with partners that we have today. So we already have that relationship covered off. So that's what's going to move, you know, plus the EV stock and everything else I talked about is what's going to move that average to the right.
Okay. And can you talk about competitors? Because I think one thing that's interesting about your positioning in fast charging is that it's dollar intensive, and that's come up with the loan a couple of times. Like, what are you, you know, Tesla Supercharger, we're not sure what's going on there. Electrify America, they had a certain amount they had to spend from a lawsuit. Like, what, you know, if we think about fast chargers going in the ground, you know, do you guys consider yourselves the leaders? Is there, like, what's the right way to think about other competitive fast chargers going in?
Yeah. So you mentioned Tesla. People know Tesla. They laid off most, a lot of their charging, Supercharger or the Supercharger people. At some point last year, I think they've hired a bunch of people back, but you know, so where they're going with charging still remains to be seen. It's very, it's very unclear. Electrify America, which is the VW company, they have, I think, 18 months left to run on their, whatever their commitment is, 12- 18 months. And they've only said that they're going to put 350 stalls in that period of time until their fund, whatever funding runs out. And then if they're to grow after that, they need to find new funding. And so we're the third largest there and we've said we're going to do between 7,500 and 10,000 in the next five years. The market today is about 50,000.
We think in five years, according to, you know, how EVs are going to grow, that the market needs about 180,000, right? So there's 50,000 that is going to need 180,000. So it's roughly 21,000 or so a year. Last year, the whole market grew by 12,000. We're going to grow by 7,500 over the five years, the whole time period.
We're not sure where the other ones are going to come from, which tells me if there's that much of a gap between the supply and demand for chargers, even if you think that charger growth or EV growth, I should say, is going to slow down a little bit for whatever reason, there's this gap remains and will remain for the next five years, which tells me that, you know, we can easily get performance out of the new 7,500-10,000 new stalls, you know, over that period of time, that the demand is going to be there. The demand is there. There's no question.
Got it. Okay. Thank you for the detail there. And then can you talk about, you know, we talked about partnerships from installing chargers in the ground level, but can you talk about equipment partnerships? Where do you get your chargers? Is EVgo vertically integrated? Do you have partners that you use? How much input do you have in the chargers that you're installing in the ground? And what does that look like going forward?
Our biggest supplier of chargers is Delta. Delta Electronics, based in Taiwan. We are in the process with them, working with them on our, what we call our next generation of charger. Our 3.0 charger, which is going to have, you know, a much better customer interface. It's got, you know, different components. It's got power sharing, you know, chargers on a site will be able to share power, which allows us to have, you know, different configuration and components in it. And they're going to be 30%. We're targeting 30% cheaper than what we're paying today. The capital cost of the chargers is going to go down. We're in a partnership with them, a co-development agreement to bring this to market. We'll, you know, start testing it later this year and into 2026.
It'll become the majority of our rollout as the years go on, so that's really leveraging, you know, our knowledge and, you know, what customers want and our knowledge of design with their knowledge of infrastructure, their supply chain advantages, and we'll go forward with them. We'll also be looking for, you know, it makes sense to have a second supplier, but, you know, having one major supplier and a company like Delta, you know, is going to work for us.
Okay. And what do you tell investors who ask about the change in power in DC and what that means for EV adoption? I think we sort of hit on it with more chargers in the ground or growth versus EV growth. But I'd love to get your perspective on how EVgo thinks about EV adoption to the extent that it even affects the business and the financials.
Yeah. So what we've said publicly is that we don't think, you know, the new administration coming in is really going to have much change to our business, going to affect our business. You know, on the EV side, just EV sales, there's the $7,500 credit. There's the lease loophole that, you know, could come under scrutiny, which could affect EV demand. But as I said earlier, I think EVs are here to stay. I think people love them beyond the credit. The prices have come down. They're more on par. Their cost to operate is a lot less than a nice vehicle. And so I think that they're here to stay. So there could be some impact on growth because of that. More directly from us, some of the federal incentives. So like NEVI, for example, we're not terribly dependent on NEVI funding.
NEVI funding is generally for highway corridors, which in our view, it tends to have lower utilization. So it doesn't fit our economics and our business model. So we're not terribly impacted if NEVI goes away. And by the way, NEVI is the, it's the red states that, you know, overwhelmingly benefit from NEVI funding today. So who knows if it's going to go away or there's going to be some debate about that. That remains to be seen. Regardless, we're not terribly impacted by it. And then the other one is the 30C tax credit, which is only a very, very small part of the IRA, like 0.1% or 0.2% of the IRA. So it wouldn't be one of the top focus areas probably for the new administration. It's technology neutral and it also has bipartisan support as well.
Even if it did go away, it wouldn't affect our business model. It wouldn't cause us to have to pivot in any way. We think there's probably going to be a debate about that. The other thing I should just mention with the new administration coming in, you know, with Elon Musk in the scene is that autonomous vehicles, you know, which Tesla has said in one of their last calls that autonomous vehicles is an area that they're wanting to, you know, invest a lot in. You know, they're not the only game in town for autonomous vehicles. Autonomous vehicles, you know, taxis and that sort of thing are all EVs. They are all dependent on charging. They're all dependent on fast charging.
So if it isn't Tesla, any of these other companies that are, you know, even further ahead than Tesla is on autonomous vehicles is going to need fast charging and a company like EVgo to help them with that, right? So that's a potential new growth area as a result of the new administration coming in.
Okay. And if we're talking about Tesla, can we just spend some time on, you know, NACS versus CCS connections, Tesla Supercharger stations, Tesla drivers having to compete with other OEM drivers to get a stall at a Tesla Supercharger station? You know, what does EVgo see right now as far as Tesla drivers on the network and what's the potential for, how do you frame growth?
Yeah. So what we have to do is, you know, retrofit a lot of our chargers with the Tesla charger, the NACS charger. So we're developing a plan to roll out and retrofit a certain number of those, testing those. We want to make sure that they work right. And you know, they work with the vehicle and the customer experience is going to be there. So we're being, you know, pretty thoughtful about it. I think though we have to, as part of being thoughtful about it, is looking at, you know, our own network and saying, you know, if we've got chargers out there that are being fully utilized, like the top 15%, what we don't need is, you know, now a whole bunch of Tesla drivers putting even more pressure on those sites and then saying, okay, everybody's out of here.
I can't, you know, sort of perpetuate a reputation of not being available. So being very thoughtful about where you're going to put these in and what the expectation, what the expected output is going to be and result is going to be is something we're going to be testing as well. We just want to make sure, I mean, it's a good idea. It opens up the Tesla driver market more to us, more seamlessly. They can use our, you know, our chargers now with an adapter, but this, you know, having the cable would just make it more seamless. But, you know, we got, we again, we want to be thoughtful about it. It isn't a panacea that we're going to retrofit everything all at once as quickly as possible. I think that we wouldn't get as positive a result as we, as you may think.
Makes sense. We've got about five, ten minutes left. I'd love to open it up to the room if anyone had some questions. Go ahead.
Do you ever see any price competition per kilowatt? And do you anticipate in the next few years any price competition in terms of just drivers being price sensitive and shopping for the cheapest electricity?
We haven't seen much evidence of that, to be honest with you. It's more about convenience of location rather than price. It isn't like the sort of gasoline market where, you know, the person on the next corner is one cent cheaper. I'm going across the road. It hasn't come to that kind of competition yet. It may one day, but it isn't at that point now. It's definitely more about, is this a convenient spot, right? The convenience, is this where I'm going anyway? And can it charge quickly? It tends to be more of it. We do see though with some of the ride share, Uber drivers, Lyft drivers, you know, that's their business. So they are looking at all of their costs and can be a little bit more price sensitive.
And so we're experimenting also with pricing incentives to get them to charge on off hours, you know, like in the middle of the night or in the evening so that give them a slightly better price so they're not all showing up at the same time as retail customers are showing up, right? So we tend to see maybe a little bit more price sensitivity with them, but not so much with retail customers.
So what's the price premium if I was to charge, I don't know, a 60 kW battery at home versus at one of your facilities?
It would depend a lot on where your home is because there's different, you know, utility costs on that sort of thing. So very difficult to answer, but there is a price point.
It takes quite a bit longer to charge your 60 kilowatt battery.
If you're charging it overnight.
Yep, I'm with you. Yeah.
What is the price difference say to charge 60 kilowatts?
Our price per kilowatt, you know, on average is about $0.55.
Okay.
$0.55 a kilowatt. So you would compare that then to your, whatever your state or your home or your local utility charge rate is, you know, and they may have certain EV programs, may have certain surcharge, I don't know, but you know, you would have to compare it to that. But nobody, but most people at home don't have a fast charger, right? You're charging it overnight, over eight hours or whatever it is. And a fast charger is, you know, I want it charged up by the time I get back to my car, right? Within 30 minutes or so. It's a bit of a different proposition.
Just along those lines, are you paying more at yours or at home just on a per kilowatt hour? Like forget the time it takes.
You'd pay more at a charger, at any charger.
At any charger.
Yeah. Than at home. Home you're paying your, whatever your utility rate is. You know, and as I said, some states or some utilities have got incentives even for EVs if they charge off hours.
You're paying.
Which are even less.
Paying for convenience of being out, you need it. So it makes sense.
Right. Or you're an Uber driver or you're somebody in a multi, you know, apartment building or something that doesn't have access to home charging, which is an increasing share of the population. There's a big used EV market that's starting to develop, becoming more material. A lot of people who live in apartments or, you know, are buying used EVs but don't necessarily have the original owner may have had home charging, but the new owner may not and they need a solution.
We've talked about, you've mentioned $0.55, your customer-facing price. Can you talk about your input prices? Like what happens, you know, we hear about AI and data centers and power demands on the grid. Is that something that, you know, how do you frame an answer to investors who ask about your input prices and or price and power that you have if that came to pass?
Our input price, what goes into our cost of goods, you know, the cost of electricity. There's the stall-based costs such as maintenance and rent. There could be sort of commercial taxes in there, demand charges of electricity. It's a commercial operation. There could be electricity demand charges as well as all part of what goes into that. We're focused very much on the margin of that. Every state has got different electricity costs, but we want to make sure that we're earning a certain margin, you know, a consistent margin regardless of where the energy costs are today or where they're going to be into the future, right?
There's certain things that we're looking at now too, especially in deregulated energy markets where we can perhaps fix the energy cost, fix some of the other input costs as well to make sure that if there's, you know, spikes in energy costs or energy prices like in Texas from time to time or other markets, that we're not having to pass that through. We can dampen the effect of that to customers. It's about margin management, and margin risk management is critical there.
Okay.
Just to follow up on that. So if your $0.55 is your on average, what's your on average cost per kilowatt hour and what's been the trend of the $0.55 and the trend of the cost?
The cost, well, I mean, you'll follow utility costs, but you know, it's wherever utility costs are going.
I'm asking you for your company.
Our cost sort of across the network, which is a blend of a whole bunch of different utilities and is dependent on the mix of how many chargers you have in each of those utilities, comes out to roughly $0.24-$0.25, right?
What's been the trend of that?
That has been trending down as we enter, as we go, you know, have a lot of chargers and had more of a mix in California, which is higher power costs, and as you go into other markets, it kind of brings the whole average, starts to bring the whole average down over time, but it's kind of like a, it is an average. It's which market is that? There isn't one market. It's all the markets blended together.
If Delta is doing the hardware for the chargers, who's developing the software, the user interface, making ease of use or try to build loyalty programs? Is that?
We're doing that. Yeah, so working with them on, you know, all of the software interfaces, parts, you know, some of the good people that we have hired are, you know, the software engineers from other charging companies that understand how the charger needs to work with the vehicle and how the software needs to work with managing the whole network. So, we're building that for ourselves. It's going to be with any charging company. It's a source of differentiation, proprietary differentiation.
What's the latest messaging on adjusted EV profitability for EVgo? It's been a space where companies have struggled to show profitability.
Our goal is to be Adjusted EBITDA positive in 2025. This year. As we continue to ramp up, as our throughput and utilization continues to grow and we manage our costs, we're expecting to be EBITDA positive this year. If you look at our trajectory of our EBITDA over the last couple of years, you see that we're, you know, we're almost there.
Okay, and then so you've got just to kind of tie it together in the model, your $0.55, you're selling $0.25 your cost.
Cost of electricity.
Yes, and then how do we think about fixed versus variable costs in terms of stall maintenance costs and OpEx?
About 70% of all of our other costs are fixed.
Okay.
The rest 30% are variable with the, whether it stalls or with throughput. Like for example, credit card charges are variable with throughput because it's based on the total bill.
Okay. Well, why don't we leave it there? Paul, thanks for your time . All right. It's great to meet you.
Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate it. Thanks, everybody.